Podcast Summary: The World and Everything In It
Episode: Darkness, Beauty, and Belief
Release Date: June 14, 2025
Host: Mary Reichard
Guest: Andrew Clavin, Bestselling Author and Podcaster

Introduction

In this thought-provoking episode of The World and Everything In It, host Mary Reichard engages in a deep conversation with Andrew Clavin, a bestselling author and podcaster known for his exploration of dark themes intertwined with hope and faith. Clavin, who transitioned from agnosticism to Catholicism in his 40s, discusses his latest work, Kingdom of Finding God in the Literature of Darkness. The episode delves into the interplay between darkness and beauty, the decline of faith in modern society, and the moral implications of art and literature.

The Decline of Faith and Moral Order

Mary Reichard opens the discussion by highlighting a poignant line from Clavin's book: "The long withdrawing tide of faith is the central event of our time. The collapse of the Christian moral order would inevitably follow from that." (00:57)

Clavin elaborates on this decline, pointing to decreasing church attendance and the rise of individuals who identify with no religious affiliation. He emphasizes the pervasive influence of ideologies that reject the existence of God, promote gender fluidity, and endorse moral relativism. Referencing Nietzsche's proclamation "God is dead," Clavin underscores the widespread erosion of faith and its impact on Western intellectual thought. He observes, "The proof of that is everywhere around us and hopefully it will turn. But it's going to take quite a movement for that to happen." (01:19)

The Significance of Cain and Abel

Transitioning to biblical narratives, Mary introduces the story of Cain and Abel—the first recorded murder—and its enduring spiritual relevance. (02:33)

Clavin responds by framing the murder of Abel by Cain as the inception of human history and the recurring theme of sibling rivalry and moral conflict throughout the Old Testament. He notes, "It's an incredibly profound moment in history and one that just repeats over and over again." (02:50) This narrative serves as a foundational example of inherent human flaws and the struggle between good and evil.

Andrew Clavin’s Personal Journey and Morality

Clavin shares his personal battle with depression and how therapy played a pivotal role in his recovery, transforming his outlook from suicidal ideation to one of peace and productivity. (03:35)

Despite his initial alignment with atheistic philosophies, particularly those of Sigmund Freud, Clavin found these doctrines insufficient in explaining moral absolutes. He recounts reading Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment and being moved to tears, leading him to reject moral relativism. Clavin states, "I believe that's wrong. I believe there's a moral order." (06:17) This conviction formed the cornerstone of his journey toward faith, as he sought a coherent explanation for inherent moral truths.

The Role of Art in Understanding Evil and Beauty

Mary probes Clavin's assertion that literature and art can both portray and reveal deep truths about evil and beauty. She raises the question: "If hating one's brother is as bad as murder, why explore extreme depravity to show separation from God?" (09:09)

Clavin defends the exploration of darkness in art, arguing that confronting evil is essential for understanding and appreciating the sacred. He contrasts works like Macbeth and Psycho with mere "torture porn," emphasizing that meaningful art delves into the nature of evil to highlight moral truths. Clavin asserts, "Murder is the absolute dramatization of that sanctity." (09:48)

Christian Art vs. Depiction of Evil

The conversation shifts to distinguishing between redemptive art and art that merely dwells in evil. (12:11)

Clavin explains that true art, whether Christian or not, must be honest and truthful in its depiction. He recounts an experience in Hollywood where he refused to write a superficial torture narrative, choosing instead to create stories with moral substance. According to Clavin, "Christian life and Christian art are two different things. Art that is honest will be Christian art." (12:57) He emphasizes that Christian art inherently embodies goodness and moral integrity, aligning with the belief that all truth is Christian.

Gender Confusion and Literature’s Influence

Mary addresses the portrayal of gender confusion in literature and its potential impact on societal attitudes towards gender identity. (15:28)

Clavin argues that such literature doesn't cause confusion but rather reflects and predicts existing societal shifts. He links gender confusion to atheism, suggesting that the loss of spiritual grounding leads individuals to view gender as merely a physical attribute rather than an intrinsic identity. Clavin critiques modern portrayals of gender fluidity, asserting that they stem from a nihilistic worldview devoid of spiritual meaning. He insists, "That insanity arises directly from atheism and from an atheistic view of the world." (15:58)

The Pieta – Suffering and Beauty

In discussing Michelangelo's Pieta, Clavin explores the intersection of suffering and beauty. (18:00)

He describes the sculpture as the epitome of beauty intertwined with profound sorrow, depicting Mary cradling the lifeless body of Jesus. Clavin reflects on how this artwork encapsulates the tragic estrangement from God, yet is rendered in exquisite beauty. He posits that such depictions help believers reconcile the existence of evil with divine beauty, offering a glimpse into a larger, incomprehensible design. Clavin concludes, "That we might be a small part of a beauty that we can't see, we can't fully comprehend..." (18:16)

Conclusion and Final Remarks

As the conversation wraps up, Clavin shares insights into his evolving worldview. He acknowledges that while his perspective on life has grown darker with age—recognizing the pervasive presence of sin and morality—the serenity and peace he experiences have deepened due to his faith in a divine designer. (20:20)

Mary concludes by reflecting on the contrast between intellectual elitism and practical wisdom, citing Clavin's observations of different communities. The episode ends with mutual appreciation, highlighting the meaningful exchange between host and guest on the profound themes of darkness, beauty, and belief.

Notable Quotes:

• Mary Reichard (00:57): "The long withdrawing tide of faith is the central event of our time. The collapse of the Christian moral order would inevitably follow from that."

• Andrew Clavin (01:19): "It's been when Nietzsche said God is dead, that's what he was talking about."

• Andrew Clavin (06:17): "I believe that there's a moral order. I believe no matter where you are, no matter what the people around you believe, torturing somebody for your own pleasure is wrong."

• Andrew Clavin (12:57): "I believe that any true story will express God."

• Andrew Clavin (18:16): "That we might be a small part of a beauty that we can't see, we can't fully comprehend..."

This summary is intended to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode for those who have not listened, capturing the essence of the discussions and the insights shared by Andrew Clavin.