Doubletake: A Digital Revolt

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Doubletake: A Digital Revolt"

Podcast: The World and Everything In It
Host: WORLD Radio
Episode: Doubletake: A Digital Revolt
Release Date: December 7, 2024

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Introduction: Embracing the Postman Pledge

In the episode titled "Doubletake: A Digital Revolt," WORLD Radio delves into the increasing concerns surrounding social media and smartphone use among children and teenagers. The discussion centers around the Postman Pledge, an initiative inspired by Neil Postman's critique of media's impact on society, advocating for families to refrain from providing their children with smartphones and access to social media platforms.

Alessandra Nash's Commitment to the Postman Pledge

The episode opens with Alessandra Nash sharing her personal journey towards taking the Postman Pledge. Previously a heavy social media user since age 14, Alessandra confronted the challenge of relinquishing her smartphone usage:

Alessandra Nash [00:18]: "To take the Postman pledge myself."

Despite her initial struggle with self-control, Alessandra's determination highlights the difficulty many face in distancing themselves from pervasive digital technologies.

A Christian School's Bold Stand Against Digital Distraction

Transitioning to a broader perspective, the podcast explores how a Christian school in Idaho has adopted the Postman Pledge, encouraging all its families to eliminate smartphones and social media from their households. Les Sillers introduces Mandy Moore, a mother navigating the complexities of raising children without digital devices:

Mandy Moore [02:41]: "In the process of getting home. Seventh grade was a rough year for Mandy Moore's daughter. All her classmates had phones and she didn't."

Mandy's proactive approach, rooted in her background in physical therapy, draws parallels between digital addiction and substance abuse, emphasizing the physiological impacts of technology on developing brains.

Mandy Moore [03:33]: "I remember one day just feeling just this huge urgency. We have to get rid of this. We have to turn this off."

Parental Struggles and the Impact on Children

The narrative delves into the challenges Mandy faced when her daughter requested a smartphone, especially as social media became integral to high school activities:

Mandy Moore [05:16]: "Maybe if she and her husband hadn't been alone in this, it would have been easier. Mandy had seen the effects of social media throughout her teaching career."

The episode highlights the broader societal pressure, with statistics revealing that 95% of teens aged 13-18 own a phone and half have Internet access. US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy emphasizes the mental health crisis exacerbated by social media:

Vivek Murthy [06:17]: "And we're hoping for the best."

Origins of the Postman Pledge: Jeannie Schindler's Initiative

The story circles back to the origins of the Postman Pledge, attributed to Jeannie Schindler. As a former university professor turned homeschooling mom, Jeannie sought collective action to mitigate the adverse effects of digital technology on children:

Jonathan Haidt [08:00]: "The idea started over two years ago when our oldest child was just 13."

Jeannie's collaboration with other parents led to the formalization of the Postman Pledge, inspired by Neil Postman's foresight in "Amusing Ourselves to Death":

Jonathan Haidt [09:13]: "Television, that's what it's best at to provide amusement in order to gather an audience."

Families Navigating the Postman Pledge

The episode features multiple families' experiences with the pledge:

1. The Thomases' Struggle with Their Daughter's Smartphone Use:

   • Ann Thomas [10:47]: "And I was just so glad that this school was willing to be to take a stand on this."
   • Their daughter, an avid gymnast, grapples with peer pressure and the allure of digital culture, leading to attempts to circumvent restrictions.

2. Kate's Family: Balancing Rules and Rebellion:

   • Kate [16:10]: "They were immediately very angry about it, which I thought was hilarious because again nothing really changed in our home."
   • Her daughters find ways to bypass restrictions, leading to emotional distress and family tensions.

3. The Millers' Approach: Strategic Privileges for Older Children:

   • Trevor Miller [19:00]: "We didn't let the other one start playing video games at all until 12ish, maybe 12 or 13."
   • They adopt a differentiated approach, granting privileges based on perceived responsibility.

Theoretical Underpinnings: Neil Postman's Vision

Neil Postman's theories serve as the philosophical backbone of the pledge. His concept of the "monastery effect" advocates for shielding children from pervasive adult influences to preserve their childhood:

Jonathan Haidt [14:45]: "We want to give our children the freedom to pay attention and the freedom to be to be in a particular place."

This approach underscores the importance of fostering genuine relationships and personal growth devoid of digital distractions.

Community and Support Systems

Jeannie Schindler and Mandy Moore play pivotal roles in fostering community support among parents. Their initiatives include:

• Scottish Country Dancing Events: Promoting togetherness and physical activity.
• Coffee Chats: Facilitating discussions on technology and theology.
• School Events: Encouraging communal activities and reducing homework to allow for social interaction.

Mandy Moore [21:02]: "And there are students like Leah, who had a smartphone at age 14, and she still has one. She doesn't plan to give it up, but she's starting to see the problem."

Alessandra Nash's Transformation

Alessandra Nash shares her personal transformation post-pledge:

Alessandra Nash [26:41]: "I feel more present, attentive and thoughtful. And I feel more mindful of how I'm spending my time."

Her journey from a heavy social media user to a more mindful individual encapsulates the potential benefits of the Postman Pledge.

Conclusion: The Viability of Distancing from Technology

The episode concludes by contemplating the feasibility of the Postman Pledge in an increasingly digital world. While complete abstinence may be challenging, incremental steps and collective parental action can foster healthier relationships with technology.

Jeannie Schindler [24:30]: "Individuals can still have kind of a rebellious spirit against the spirit of the age or the culture of the age..."

The overarching message emphasizes the importance of mindful interaction with technology, prioritizing personal relationships and community over digital distractions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Alessandra Nash [00:18]: "To take the Postman pledge myself."
• Mandy Moore [03:33]: "Technology has a physiological effect on you that you can't control."
• Vivek Murthy [06:17]: "And we're hoping for the best."
• Jeannie Schindler [08:00]: "The idea started over two years ago when our oldest child was just 13."
• Jonathan Haidt [09:13]: "Television, that's what it's best at to provide amusement in order to gather an audience."
• Trevor Miller [19:00]: "We didn't let the other one start playing video games at all until 12ish, maybe 12 or 13."
• Alessandra Nash [26:38]: "I feel more present, attentive and thoughtful."

Final Thoughts

"Doubletake: A Digital Revolt" offers a comprehensive exploration of the Postman Pledge, intertwining personal anecdotes with expert insights to present a nuanced perspective on digital detox for families. The episode underscores the delicate balance between embracing technological advancements and preserving the sanctity of childhood, urging parents to take proactive steps in fostering a healthier, more mindful digital environment for their children.

Transcript

[Les Sillers]

From World Radio, this is Double Take. I'm Les Sillers. So, Alessandra, you're about to start on the Postman pledge story, and you have come to a. Well, you've come to me with an offer. Really? What's the offer?

[Alessandra Nash]

To take the postman pledge myself.

[Les Sillers]

You want to take the postman pledge?

[Alessandra Nash]

I do.

[Les Sillers]

Wow. The Postman pledge has nothing to do with the post office. The Postman pledge is a promise that a small number of families around the country have been making to each other. Essentially, they agree not to give their children smartphones and to eliminate social media from their homes. Alessandra offered to stop using social media along with them while she did the story. This was not going to be easy for her. She got her first Facebook account at age 14, and she's been a heavy user of social media ever since. As a journalism student at Patrick Henry College, she had blocked Instagram on her computer.

[Alessandra Nash]

But it's also very easy to like, turn on and off the web restrictions.

[Les Sillers]

So when she got bored or wanted to take a break from studying, I.

[Alessandra Nash]

Would go to my computer, like, turn off the restrictions, go on Instagram for a few minutes, then go back and block it again. Like, pretend that I'm very self controlled. It's embarrassing, really embarrassing.

[Les Sillers]

Well, I give you credit for trying.

[Alessandra Nash]

Thank you.

[Les Sillers]

It's a good faith effort. Alessandra spent her high school years pretty much glued to her phone.

[Alessandra Nash]

Summer's just like stuck to that as a sort of outlet and I don't know, it's. I guess you can call it an addiction.

[Les Sillers]

So this is a pretty personal story for you? In a lot of ways, yes. Well, we will look forward to seeing what you come up with over the next little while.

[Alessandra Nash]

See if I don't cave. I hope not, but I'm excited.

[Les Sillers]

Like Alessandra, lots of people are trying to get social media use under control, especially for their kids. So today, Alessandra will explain who Neil Postman was and where this Postman pledge came from. But first, she'll take us to a Christian school in Idaho that strongly encourages all its families to sign the pledge. That's right. A whole school where students are not supposed to have smartphones or social media. Not at school, and not even at home. As one parent told us, that's like declaring war on an entire culture. We are everyday robots on our phones.

[Mandy Moore]

In the process of getting home. Seventh grade was a rough year for Mandy Moore's daughter. All her classmates had phones and she didn't.

[Jeannie Schindler]

She felt very isolated from her class. She felt like at school it was even hard to interact with her friends because there was so much of the conversation she was missing.

[Mandy Moore]

Mandy's a mom of two from Boise, Idaho. She and her husband were always careful with digital technology in their home. They canceled cable TV when their children were young, even though they mainly used it to watch the news.

[Jeannie Schindler]

I remember one day just feeling just this huge urgency. We have to get rid of this. We have to turn this off. I could just tell that this was not going to be helpful, informing them in the way that we were desiring to.

[Mandy Moore]

Mandy often talked with her children about the addictive nature of technology. Her background in physical therapy helped her explain a similarity between digital technology use and brain injuries.

[Jeannie Schindler]

Technology has a physiological effect on you that you can't control. It is similar to a drug. When you're developing and you're a child, your body is not equipped to have any defense against those types of drugs.

[Mandy Moore]

She wanted her children to be attentive, to be curious and to love truth. To not lose their childhood to the instant gratification promised by screens. So when her daughter came home from middle school a few years ago begging for a phone, the simple answer was no. But when everyone else's parents were saying.

[Jeannie Schindler]

Yes, it felt like all of a sudden an all out war for my children.

[Mandy Moore]

As her daughter grew older, the battle intensified. Her daughter's high school running team relied on texting. She missed several practices because her team couldn't contact her about time or location changes.

[Jeannie Schindler]

At that point, I gave her a smartphone. And at that point it was a very locked down smartphone.

[Mandy Moore]

When colleges started to recruit her in her junior year of high school, Mandy allowed her to open a social media account.

[Jeannie Schindler]

I noticed the draw that it had. She can be drawn in and pressured. You know, that's how people are going to communicate with her. And I think just looking at her, I feel like it's isolating.

[Mandy Moore]

In hindsight, Mandy thinks her daughter was.

[Alessandra Nash]

Too young to get a phone.

[Jeannie Schindler]

I held out until I felt like it was the very last minute that I could hold out giving a phone to my daughter. And I regret now doing it then.

[Mandy Moore]

Maybe if she and her husband hadn't been alone in this, it would have been easier. Mandy had seen the effects of social media throughout her teaching career, and she definitely noticed it as the dean of the Ambrose Schools Bridge campus in Garden City, Idaho.

[Jeannie Schindler]

And as soon as the bell rings, everyone would be on their phone and no one would be looking at each other anymore.

[Mandy Moore]

Ambrose used to allow phones on campus, but they were supposed to remain off, be kept in lockers, and not be used during school hours. Still, teachers often caught kids who normally obeyed rules sneaking out their phones during recess.

[Jeannie Schindler]

It was just draining the students all day long. I just knew that this is something that's now controlling them versus them controlling it.

[Mandy Moore]

Many people have similar concerns. US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, who was interviewed on CNN recently, agreed that teen social media use is a huge problem. We've put them in unsafe, untenable environments.

[Vivek Murthy]

And we're hoping for the best.

[Mandy Moore]

Exactly 95% of teens between the ages of 13 and 18 own a phone, and half of them have Internet access. Lots of parents are unaware of what sort of material or people their kids are encountering online. Jonathan Haidt, a social psychologist and author, addresses this in his recent book the Anxious Generation. He explained his concerns on msnbc.

[Vivek Murthy]

A complete collapse of mental health hitting especially girls and especially young girls in Canada, the UK, Australia. It all starts around 2013, the year.

[Mandy Moore]

Instagram became wildly popular among young people. He believes the introduction of smartphones and social media has rewired childhood for the worst. And he wants parents to act now and for parents to know they have more of an impact than they think.

[Vivek Murthy]

We're stuck because it's a series of collective action problems, that is. Why do you feel you have to give your kid a smartphone in fifth or sixth grade? Because everybody else did. We parents and teachers, we can solve this if we act together.

[Mandy Moore]

Mandy had watched all these issues develop over the last several years. She knew she wanted to do something about it, but she didn't know what. And then she learned about something called the Postman pledge. In 2023, one of Mandy's colleagues from Ambrose wrote about a woman named Jeannie from Hyattsville, Maryland.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Well, my name is Jeannie Schindler. I am currently a homeschooling mom and a homemaker, though earlier in my life I was a university professor.

[Mandy Moore]

She taught political philosophy, and she's the author of the Postman Pledge.

[Jonathan Haidt]

The idea started over two years ago when our oldest child was just 13. And when we learned that his best friend was about to get a phone, which was concerning to us.

[Mandy Moore]

Like Mandy, Jeannie was concerned about the damage digital communication technology does to children. Jeannie also knew she couldn't parent against the grain alone.

[Jonathan Haidt]

It couldn't be this idiosyncratic and weird thing that our little family was doing. It had to have broader support.

[Mandy Moore]

So she reached out to 24 couples with children from her kids private Catholic school and and their church. She invited them over for cake and coffee to discuss how to parent in the technological age.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Out of those discussions, the Postman pledge was born.

[Mandy Moore]

It's a nod to author and social commentator Neil Postman. His 1985 book Amusing Ourselves to Death foresaw the massive effects communication technology would have on public discourse and on education. In 1985, he was concerned primarily about television. Insofar as we're talking about American commercial.

[Alessandra Nash]

Television, that's what its best is to provide amusement in order to gather an audience.

[Mandy Moore]

He pointed out that media shaped the culture in their own image. Today, social media is more influential than broadcast television. But Postman's principle applies. People who spend a lot of time on social media will, over time, adopt the values of social media. Critics say these values include a drive for constant simulation, an inability to focus, a desire for attention, a shallowness of thought, and a focus on self.

[Jonathan Haidt]

The pledge is an annual commitment to commit our families to not having smartphones for their children and to not allow their children to use social media.

[Mandy Moore]

Here's Mandy reading the pledge.

[Jeannie Schindler]

As Christian parents, we pledge for the next year to not allow our children to have smartphones or use social media. We also pledged to Mandy knew that.

[Mandy Moore]

Kids needed to thrive at home, to flourish at school in general, and to.

[Jeannie Schindler]

Cultivate the habits of attention and presence that allow us to grow in the love of one another and of God.

[Mandy Moore]

She felt that the burden should be on parents to ensure limited social media and Internet exposure. The Postman Pledge, she realized, could help. So Mandy started hosting informal chats with parents from each grade to explain Internet safety and the pledge. She invited parents to sign it. Many parents were on board from the beginning, like Ann and Mike Thomas. They have three kids.

[Ann Thomas]

And I was just so glad that this school was willing to be to take a stand on this and to boldly, unapologetically say, this is what we are doing and we would like you to come on board.

[Mandy Moore]

Ann and Mike have raised their kids with minimal access to digital technology.

[Ann Thomas]

Our culture, especially here in America, that we want our time filled, it needs to be filled with something. I think that it people miss out on the richness and the fullness of relationships and the beauty of one another that God has given us.

[Mandy Moore]

But Mike and Ann have struggled with their daughter over the Postman Pledge. She's a gymnast. Her skill level puts her with the older girls. Some of them have exposed her to pop culture and digital tech, for which she's just not ready.

[Mike Thomas]

So in the same way these girls walk up with their phones and can you Believe what this guy just said about me. And look what they're doing here. And so she's been asked unfortunately to grow older than she's supposed to be.

[Mandy Moore]

She knows her parents expectations. She knows about the Postman Pledge. But she continues to ask to listen to certain music, play certain games and plead for a phone. She argues because she wants to fit in.

[Mike Thomas]

This is the main challenge. I want her to be the influencer of others and not be influenced by others.

[Mandy Moore]

But they don't want to alienate their children over this either.

[Mike Thomas]

So I have to watch it. I have to be the like, don't push too hard because then you don't want her to like hide stuff. I'm so used to my daughter being like, okay dad, you know, and now she's never okay dad.

[Kate]

I have to earn that.

[Mandy Moore]

Mike and Ann know that Postman pledger know some things get through the cracks. They have a rule that computers, including their son's Chromebook from school, must be used in the family's common living areas. They have software to monitor the device and Ambrose tracks students laptop use.

[Mike Thomas]

They do a great job of having a blacklist, pretty much any website that you need. So every website you go to is tracked. So they do know where you go to, but that doesn't stop you from going there.

[Mandy Moore]

On the drive to soccer practice one day, their son noticed an adult store.

[Mike Thomas]

He would ask about Hustler store, what is this?

[Mandy Moore]

His parents responded with age appropriate answers. But he wanted to know more. So he snuck his computer into his room and plugged the store's name into Google Maps. He found the review section. It included pornographic photos. Then he searched for similar products on Amazon, a site that wouldn't normally raise red flags with the monitoring programs.

[Mike Thomas]

One thing leads to another, you know.

[Mandy Moore]

Ann and Mike had no idea he'd been doing this. He'd been spending lots of time in his room and he'd seem tired.

[Ann Thomas]

And then on a school morning I went in to check on him and he slid something underneath his legs. And so I said, oh, what is that?

[Mandy Moore]

The Thomases were shocked. They notified the school, which added Google Maps and Amazon to its blacklist. The school stepped in to support Mike and Ann in disciplining and discipling their son.

[Ann Thomas]

What I think the Postman's pledge could potentially create is just this like huge wall of people who act. They're standing there with shields and swords and they're ready to fight for you.

[Mandy Moore]

Neil Postman believed strongly in the preservation of childhood. In his 1994 book the Disappearance of childhood. He urges parents and educators to protect children from the adult world until they're ready. Here's Postman again at the State University of New York. I believe that human beings need first to be children before they can be. That involves developing their taste, jeannie says.

[Jonathan Haidt]

We want to give our children the freedom to pay attention and the freedom to be to be in a particular place, to be with people who are right in front of them.

[Mandy Moore]

The job of parents and educators, according to Postman, is to give children the time and space to be children. Postman calls this monastery effect. It's the concept that parents must wall off the world for a period of time for their children. This gives them the space and opportunity to develop an appreciation for the good, true and beautiful, Mandy says. This is worth fighting for.

[Jeannie Schindler]

So if children are robbed of their childhood in the sense of they don't have the time and space and protection to develop their taste, parents do have to revive against the culture in order to protect their kids and give them this opportunity for a true childhood.

[Mandy Moore]

Another family from Ambrose faces challenges with their four middle and high school age children. Double Take agreed to keep this family anonymous to protect their privacy. I'll refer to the mom as Kate. Kate and her husband have always been careful about the content their children absorb. Signing the Postman pledge seemed to them just to reinforce how they were already parenting an extra layer of support. Her daughters didn't see it that way.

[Kate]

They were immediately very angry about it, which I thought was hilarious because again nothing really changed in our home.

[Mandy Moore]

Like in the Thomases home, devices had to stay in living areas. Kate and her husband allow their older girls to have tablets with games and Internet access. The girls looked up hairstyles and recipes on Pinterest.

[Kate]

The next thing I know they're searching all these different things regarding teens. But it's like how do I get boys to like me? How do I have boys talk to me? How do I get skinnier?

[Mandy Moore]

Her second daughter also discovered the chat feature on Pinterest so they banned Pinterest. But her older daughter found a way to bend the rules.

[Kate]

Or one daughter like snuck it from our again safe spot that we have to her room and was like watching it at night Pinterest specifically like on her tablet. And it breaks my heart not only know that she obviously snuck it but more so the content.

[Mandy Moore]

This was even before they gave their girls phones and then their oldest got a dumb phone last October. It only calls, texts and takes photos. Since then she's lost privileges several times for two to three Month periods. During one of these periods, she suffered a sports injury that required surgery. Her parents allowed her to use her phone briefly to respond to friends and family who texted her well wishes.

[Kate]

After surgery, she had this expectation that she would still have it. And we were like, no, it was just a short amount of time and she just like lost it.

[Mandy Moore]

They reminded her of why she lost privileges and how she was making the phone an idle in her life, but she was breaking down.

[Kate]

And she's like, I have nothing else to do in this world. I don't know how. I'll never see my friends. I'll never talk to them. And then we had conversations with her where she really almost felt. Felt like she could not survive.

[Mandy Moore]

Meanwhile, ironically, friends were dropping gifts off at their doorstep, reaching out through Kate and her husband with encouragement.

[Kate]

It's like the world is here and it's evident, but still somehow this device, because I don't have it in my hands to really have direct contact with people, it's like my world feels like.

[Mandy Moore]

It'S over, so why not take it away completely? That isn't out of the question for Kate, but she knows her daughter won't live at home forever.

[Kate]

Eventually, like, yes, we want you to have a smartphone under our roof. In all honesty, I'd rather them make the mistakes in our home so we can have those conversations and learn from it versus, like, when they turn 18. And yeah.

[Mandy Moore]

For now, Kate is sticking to the postman pledge. A majority of elementary and middle school parents at Ambrose have signed it. But Mandy has noticed that the older the kids get, the more hesitant parents are to sign, especially if the student already has a phone.

[Jeannie Schindler]

Once the phone is given, it just seems like an impossible thing to take back.

[Mandy Moore]

For example, Heather and Trevor Miller have four sons. They signed the pledge for their elementary age children, but not for their high school sons. We do feel like we need to give him the privileges so that we can monitor it more under our roof so we can teach him how to be responsible. And their older sons have iPhones.

[Trevor Miller]

You know, it's hard to go back once you let that thing out of the box.

[Mandy Moore]

Their phones and computers have protected software. They allow their sons to talk to friends on Discord, a platform popular with teens and gamers. So far, their sons and their friends have been transparent about inappropriate occurrences on chats. However, Heather and Trevor are still wary. Their older son is on Discord for hobbies. He does interact with some. Some people he does not know. And yeah, it just would be something that we would prefer him not do. But we have given him the privilege of doing that. They want to do things differently with their younger sons, but not retract privileges they've already allowed their older sons to enjoy. To the younger boys, that seems unfair.

[Trevor Miller]

We didn't let the other one start playing video games at all until 12ish, maybe 12 or 13. And when he would complain that hey, you know, at 8 this guy got to play, we'd say, well, yeah, we made a mistake.

[Mandy Moore]

They will adhere to the Postman pledge with their younger two until they're driving. Even then, a phone isn't a guarantee.

[Trevor Miller]

You're not going to just get a phone because you have a driver's license. Like you need to have a purpose.

[Mandy Moore]

A big part of the Postman Pledge is to encourage parents to draw their children towards something good by committing and deep friendships instead of just away from something bad. This is the heart of the pledge, according to Jeannie, to enjoy togetherness apart from the distraction of screens.

[Jonathan Haidt]

So through common meals, through festivities, through dances, through games, that we want to build community and celebrate God's creation and celebrate what it means to be human together.

[Mandy Moore]

Jeannie told me stories about their Scottish country dancing events with live folk music. She also hosts coffee chats at her place for parents to discuss technology and theology. In Idaho, Mandy organizes school events that promote togetherness. Teachers intentionally assign less homework for Fridays so students can spend time together in.

[Kate]

Fellowship, obviously like grade wide activities and stay after school and play at the playground in the winter. I know on Fridays they try to do ski hangouts.

[Mandy Moore]

Every morning at Ambrose, students gather to sing a hymn of the month. Parents are encouraged to attend and to talk after too. When I visited Ambrose for this story, I noticed a constant chatter and conversation. I felt strange being on my phone responding to texts in the hallway. Since adopting the pledge and more strictly enforcing Ambrose's tech rules, Mandy's noticed positive changes. Now students aren't allowed phones in the building at all, even if they own one now.

[Jeannie Schindler]

I no longer walk to a locker area and see huddles around phones. I walk into the gym and the locker areas and I see kids face to face with expression on their face and they're having conversations.

[Mandy Moore]

The place seems joyful, exciting and engaging. Students like Caitlin and Noelle have noticed it too. It's nice to come here and we're.

[Ann Thomas]

Not all on our phones.

[Mandy Moore]

We're actually here in person and that's how we communicate. It's just so important to learn to.

[Alessandra Nash]

Actually how to make personal contact with people. Like without phones, just knowing how to talk to people without having them.

[Mandy Moore]

And there are students like Leah, who had a smartphone at age 14, and she still has one.

[Alessandra Nash]

It feels like everybody gets phones, and you're like, oh, I got to the point where I was like, I'm missing out on in person things because I don't have a phone. Which, you know, was not great.

[Mandy Moore]

She doesn't plan to give it up, but she's starting to see the problem.

[Alessandra Nash]

I don't handle the phone as well as I should. And so, like, my sister, she's in sixth grade, and she was not happy because, not that she wanted a phone, but she was like, well, I actually really like you. And now that you've got the phone, like, it feels like your attention is now toward it.

[Mandy Moore]

She learned that getting lost in her phone hurts others too.

[Alessandra Nash]

Like, it's eye opening for me. Like, oh, this is not just me. It's like, also the people that I love who are not, you know, like, feel like I'm being taken away.

[Mandy Moore]

The parents I spoke with took this all very seriously. They seemed like good parents. They weren't pushovers, and they were willing to discipline their kids. They were aware of the dangers of social media and the Internet even before signing the postman pledge. But even they struggled to make the pledge stick. I kept wondering whether distancing yourself from tech is even feasible when it's so pervasive. Mandy thinks it's possible to draw some important lines.

[Jeannie Schindler]

Individuals can still have kind of a rebellious spirit against the spirit of the age or the culture of the age and say, we may not be able to completely opt out, but we can draw hard lines that we don't cross as individuals and families.

[Mandy Moore]

Sometimes that means saying no to some things, but yes to others. Good things that are already in front of all of us. That's what Ann wants for her kids.

[Ann Thomas]

To be able to drive in a car for a few hours and to be able to look out the window and just admire what God's given us.

[Mandy Moore]

Seeing the small, beautiful aspects of life that point to something greater, to unplug and be present with loved ones, to rest from the constant pressures. Young people could do that much more easily. Before smartphones, according to Jeannie, young people.

[Jonathan Haidt]

Could come home from school, come away from their peer groups, and be in the sanctuary of their home, where they could decompress and be themselves and be with people whose affirmation and whose acceptance is a given. I want our children to live in the world and to be in touch with things that are real and to have the freedom of their imagination and the freedom of their attention.

[Les Sillers]

Did you manage to keep the postman pledge?

[Mandy Moore]

Kind of.

[Les Sillers]

What do you mean kind of?

[Alessandra Nash]

Kind of. Okay, so I ended up deleting my Instagram account completely, which was very huge for me because it's something I never thought I'd be able to do.

[Mandy Moore]

I still have my Facebook account because.

[Alessandra Nash]

I need my messenger activated for like, corral group chats and stuff.

[Les Sillers]

Do you think you're different now than you were when you started?

[Mandy Moore]

Yes, very.

[Les Sillers]

How are you different?

[Alessandra Nash]

I feel more present, attentive and thoughtful. And I feel more mindful of how I'm spending my time, if that makes sense. And I don't feel captive anymore like I used to. Into your eyes it's time I put down my devices and I start to live my life I'll look out up look out.

[Les Sillers]

To the sky this story was reported and written by Alessandra Nash. And just a quick reminder, please don't forget to rate and review us on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Alessandra Nash]

I wonder why I put a filter between beauty and my eyes I look on out into your eyes.