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A
You're listening to a special edition of THE World and everything in it. I'm Travis Kercher. Last fall I went to Israel on a reporting trip for World and experienced one of the highlights of my career. The last days of my trip coincided with the release of the Hostages taken on October 7th. Watching them come home alongside the Israeli people is a memory I'll hold forever. Special day for US Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee as well. He's been in politics a long time, serving as governor of Arkansas for more than a decade. Huckabee says that his staunch support of Israel over the years is grounded in his Christian faith. And he says part of his job is to convince Americans that Israel is important to the US not just the other way around. Having the chance to talk to Ambassador Huckabee recently was the perfect way to bring my trip to Israel full circle and you'll hear that conversation shortly. But a brief note before we begin, you'll hear him reference Judea and Samaria several times. He is speaking of what others refer to as the West Bank. Palestinians call it the west bank because it's on the western bank of the Jordan River. The Israeli government refers to it as Judea and Samaria because it consists of those biblical lands. Same place, different names. In a moment, my conversation with Ambassador Mike Huckabee.
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Additional support comes from World Watch, a 10 minute video news broadcast that the whole family can agree on. A free month trial is available at Worldwatch News.
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A
Ambassador Huckabee, shalom, thank you for joining.
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B
Us and shalom as well. It's such a pleasure to be with you, Travis.
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A
Well, I think it's safe to say Jerusalem is very different from Arkansas. But you've been living there for several months now. How are you getting on?
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B
You know, it's a very comfortable place to live. I think Jerusalem may be the most fascinating, interesting and just enchanting city on earth. There's nothing like Jerusalem. There's no place quite like it. I miss my home. I miss Arkansas a lot. I miss my grandchildren. For sure, they all seven live in Little Rock. So that part is hard. But what is easy is being where I know I'm supposed to be. I feel like that this is as much a call from God as anything I've ever done in my life. It's intense. It's stressful. I tell people this is not a ceremonial ambassadorship. It is one that is filled with intense duties, responsibilities and sometimes some hair raising moments being having to rush to the shelter and dodge ballistic missiles from the Houthis, Hamas, from Hezbollah, or from the Iranians. I've been here less than a year and I've been through four wars already, so it gives you some idea of just what kind of environment I'm living in. But we've had a ceasefire, thanks to President Trump's peace initiative. It's been a much, I guess, more calm place to live. But it is always an incredible city, an incredible country, and I feel just blessed beyond measure to have this privilege to serve the United States and President Trump as ambassador of the US To Israel.
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A
Well, I was on the ground in Israel and I got to be in hostages Square on the day the hostages were released. Tell me, what were some of the obstacles to reaching that cease fire agreement and how do you think it's holding up?
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B
Well, the biggest obstacle has always been the obstinance of Hamas. They knew that the leverage they had to keep the war going was holding the hostages. I don't think a lot of people in the world recognize that the reason this war went on as long as it did and that there was as much suffering, was nothing, because the Israelis wanted it to be that way. Israel would have been thrilled if this war had been over October 8, and it could have been. All Hamas had to do was release the hostages, but they chose not to. They continued to hold them, deprive them, keep them in the dark, in tunnels, beat them, starve them, in some cases, rape them, and a horrible thing that they went through. And because of the extended nature of the brutality of Hamas, Israel had no choice but to continue to do everything in their power to try to defeat Hamas and get the hostages home. I just believe that a lot of people around the world who are shouting nonsense like from the river to the sea show a real level of ignorance, because they have no idea what river, what sea, or what that would mean. What it would mean is that everything between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea would no longer belong to Israel, it would belong to the Palestinians. And if that were the case, it means that Israel is annihilated and the Jews are wiped off the face of the map. I don't really think people. Well, let me say, I surely don't want to believe that people really think that's a great idea. I'd like to think people would be appalled by such a thing. But then again, I see the faces of some of the people marching in the streets and on our campuses screaming that. And maybe they do mean it. But for the Jews, for the people in Israel, I know what it means. It means they cannot let down their guard, and they had no choice but to try to defeat Hamas in order to get their hostages home.
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A
Well, the Trump administration in the past has expressed at least some support for a Palestinian state. At the same time, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has always insisted that such a state would be a danger to Israel's security. Where do you stand on that? Do you see that as a possibility?
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B
Well, as an ambassador, you know, you don't get to have your own policy. You carry out that of the administration. You are the ambassador of the one who sent you. President Trump has never said that there would be a Palestinian state, never said there wouldn't. But I think in his first term, he made it pretty clear that if there was ever going to be the aspiration or the hope for one, that it was going to have to start with some serious reform in the Palestinian Authority. They're going to have to stop things like pay for slave, where they pay people who have murdered Jews. That's been a. An incredibly negative thing that has enriched people who carried out acts of terror, and it really made it very difficult to ever come to a peaceful solution. Also, textbooks teach children from the age of six that it is a noble thing to kill a Jewish person and that carrying out an act of terrorism is not a crime or not something that is evil. It is something that is wonderful and desired. If the person that you murder is a Jewish well, you can't bring about a peaceful settlement, and you cannot grant a state as long as that mindset continues to exist. So if there's going to be something like a second state, a Palestinian state, it's going to have to be based on a peaceful view of the future and a respectful view of the right of Israel to live in the homeland that they have had since 3,800 years ago when God said to Abraham, here's your homeland. This is a place for you. You are the people I've chosen, and I've got a purpose for you.
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A
Ambassador Huckabee, when I was in the West Bank, I spoke with a Palestinian Christian who told me that he. He feels forgotten. On the one hand, he says he's persecuted for his religion, but also he feels persecuted by the Israeli government because he's Palestinian. And on top of that, he says he believes Israeli settlers are taking his land that he says God gave him. What would you say to him?
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B
I would say to him that there can be room for Palestinians and Israelis to live together side by side in peace. But it does require at least a recognition that since Israel occupies a tiny little sliver of land and Muslim countries and Arab countries occupy 644 times that land, it's not unreasonable that the Jewish people believe that they should be able to live in their homeland. Now, Palestinians have control over a good bit of Judea and Samaria, Area A, Area B. But Area C is designated under the Oslo Agreement as a area of Judea and Samaria that would be livable for Jews. And you have to ask yourself, why couldn't a Jew live in a land that has been theirs and they've had a connection to for 3,800 years? After all, people who are French aren't prohibited from going into Judea and Samaria. Neither are people who are Americans, people who are Brits. So why should the only people on earth forbidden to live in Judea and Samaria, Jewish people who have a deep, long standing historical and indigenous connection to the land? So I'm not going to say there's not tension. I'm not even going to say that there's not some legitimate grievances on the part of people who live in the area of the Palestinian Authority. But sometimes the reason that the life there is difficult is because of the corruption of the government. 92% of the people who live in the Palestinian Authority say that their government is hopelessly corrupt. And it's also just a tremendous challenge and problem that there's terrorist activity, that Israelis have no choice but to try to say, look, we're not going to live with our people being vulnerable. Now, to be fair, there are sometimes people who live in communities of Judea and Samaria. They're Israeli and they do criminal and terroristic acts against Palestinians. Position that the US Takes, that I personally take as ambassador, is that crime is crime, terrorism is terrorism. Whoever does it should be consequenced and adjudicated to the full extent of the law, not only as an example, but also to say there is a consequence for committing crimes and committing acts of terror.
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A
Well, you just finished meeting with Palestinian Christians yourself. What's on their minds? What concerns did they express to you?
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They're in a tough spot in many cases because as Christians living in a land that is controlled by Muslims, they really feel the pressure and the animosity that Muslims have toward them because they're Christian and they're considered to be infidels. Many of the people who are Christian living in the Palestinian Authority have had their homes burned, they have had their businesses destroyed. And sometimes it's coming at them not only from Muslims it's coming at them too, from some of the extremist settlers on the Israeli side. So I would just hope that there would be a real desire on the part of both the Palestinian Authority and Israel to be not only outspoken against violence, but they would also consequence it when they find it, investigate it, make sure you charge people with it, and then adjudicate them and sentence them to something significant for having done what is not only a crime against another individual, but really a crime against any peaceful solution that will ever happen in the Holy Land.
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A
Well, you recently visited Bethlehem. They had their public Christmas celebrations last month for the first time in two years. Before that, tourism was virtually non existent. What does it look like now?
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B
It's a beautiful city. It was a delightful time. We visited the church and the Nativity, went to the Christmas market, enjoyed some wonderful refreshments and really hospitable people. Now, let me be honest. People know my position as the ambassador, that there was really a lot of hospitality. There were maybe a few people that gave me a look that wasn't exactly the kindest, but heck, sometimes I get that at my own family reunions. So I wasn't the least bit offended. I will tell you something, Travis, that I think is important. For several years, not just the last two, but for a number of years, US Embassy personnel were prohibited from going into Bethlehem or to various parts of the Palestinian Authority. I felt like that that was really not something we wanted to continue, that we wanted our embassy employees to be able to go to Bethlehem. I mean, how, as a Christian, you want to be able to go to the birthplace of Jesus. So we lifted that restriction and we told our folks, if you want to go to Bethlehem on Christmas Eve and spend the night in one of the hotels there, you should do that and go with a sense of joy, go with a sense of confidence. And I hope that it can be the first of many ways in which we show that we want there to be open borders. And by that I don't mean they're not going to be checkpoints and care on both sides, but we want there to be interaction and people enjoying the culture of both sides of the Israeli Palestinian Authority border.
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A
Okay, so switching gears a bit, many Christians view Israel through a prophetic lens. Do you believe the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 was the fulfillment of biblical prophecy? And if so, do the Jewish people in the State of Israel have a role to play in prophecy going forward?
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B
You know, I tell people sometimes, when I was 18 years old, I was an absolute expert on the prophecy and how the end of the world was all going to happen. And the older I've gotten, the dumber I've become in that, I just don't know. I do believe that it was a fulfillment of prophecy for Israel to come back home and to return to the land that God gave them when he first told Abraham, this is yours and this is the land that I'm giving you, and you are my people. So, yeah, there's something very incredible about that. So I believe in biblical prophecy. I'm witness to it. As to when is the end of the world coming, I don't have a clue. Could be Tomorrow, could be 2000 years from now. What I do know is that whenever it comes, I believe I've lined up on the right side. So I don't try to predict when the end of the world will be or how it's going to come about or who's going to instigate it. I simply don't know. But I know that this is truly, when I say the Holy Land, it is indeed just that.
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A
Okay, so hot button issue. When I spoke to religious Jews at the Western Wall before Rosh Hashanah, I asked them what they were praying for this New Year, and I heard two things over and over again. They want Mashiach to come. That's their Messiah, and they want to see a third Jewish temple. Now, obviously, as Christians, we believe the Messiah has already come. But what is the Trump administration's position on the Temple Mount? Do you support the continuation of the status quo, or would the Trump administration like to see a third temple in some form?
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B
Yeah, I don't think the Trump administration takes a position on that because it's, first of all an issue that has to be settled here, not in Washington. And it really would be inappropriate for D.C. to say, here's what ought to be done by the sovereign nation of Israel, and that's something they have to take up. But I think it's very noteworthy that Israel, to its credit, protects Muslim and Christian sites with the same level of fervor and tenacity with which they protect Jewish sites. I don't think they get enough credit for that because they are as protective of the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, two very important sites in the Muslim faith, as they are to the Western Wall or as they are to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher or the Garden Tomb, which are very special for Christian believers. And that's not necessarily true of holy sites that are in Judea and Samaria. A few years ago when I went to Nablus to Joseph's tomb. It's the ancient city of Shechem. We had to go at 2 in the morning. Only 12 of us could go. Military escort, armored vehicle. We could only be there 30 minutes to go and have prayer at Joseph's tomb. And when we went into the city, we were met with burning tires and tear gas. And I thought, what a contrast. I go into a place that ought to be a holy site for Christians and Jews, and it was very difficult to get in with a great deal of hostility. But I can walk all through Jerusalem and I can walk to the Jewish sites and be welcomed. I can go to Christian sites and be completely safe and protected by the Israeli government. A little bit of restriction when it comes to the Muslim sites, because they don't necessarily want non Muslims getting up close to the Dome of the Rock, but they protect those sites for the Muslims as if they were Jewish sites. And you just really can't horribly be critical of the way that Israel protects and respects the sites for other faiths.
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A
So as a Christian, if the Third Temple ever was built, would you worship there?
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B
Well, that's an interesting question. I don't think I've ever been asked that. And I've been asked pretty much everything. I would find it very interesting. I might want to visit it. You know, I don't know. I don't anticipate that it's going to happen anytime soon. There would be a lot of things that would have to happen for it to take place. But for me, a physical place is not necessary for me to have a relationship with God through my Savior Jesus Christ. It is a spiritual relationship, not a physical one. I don't have to touch a certain rock. I don't have to go to a particular city. I don't have to make a pilgrimage to someplace so far away. I can be anywhere on the earth or beyond the earth and still have fellowship and relationship with God through Christ.
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A
Now, I wanted to ask about Israeli settlers in the West Bank. We've seen turmoil there with settlers allegedly attacking Palestinian villages. We've seen Israel mount what it classifies as a counterterrorism operation in the north to protect Israeli settlers from possible terrorism activity. What is the administration's position on settlers in the west bank, and what do you think we're going to see there going forward?
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B
Well, certainly the Trump administration has taken the position that Israelis can live in Israel. And after Oslo, which was signed in 1993, there's Area A. There's Area B. There's Area C. Area A is under the full control of the Palestinian Authority. Area B is mixed, but it's mostly under the control of the Palestinian Authority. Area C is under the control of Israel, and it is a place where Jews are free to live. Now, there had been some administrations, the Biden administration being one of them, that thought that it violated international law for Israelis to live in that part of Israel. The Trump administration has said this is not a violation of international law, that it would be inappropriate to tell Americans you can't live in Texas or you can't live in Missouri. Of course, we would never say that. You're Americans. You can live anywhere in America that you want to live. And that would be the, I guess, the viewpoint or the policy that the Trump administration has followed. There's questions about annexation or declaration of sovereignty. Those aren't even on the table right now. So I think the president's position has been one that has been consistent and has been really favorable toward a long term peace process that respects and recognizes right of people to live in their ancient homeland.
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A
Do you think the Trump administration's recent emphasis on the Western Hemisphere will direct attention away from the Middle East?
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No, I don't think anything will ever completely get people to think that the Middle east doesn't matter. I mean, it's this tiny country the size of New Jersey, Israel is, and yet it is the most contested piece of real estate on all of the planet. That's not going to change. There is just too much passion associated with the area and there's too much where it is really the epicenter of the world in some ways. So I don't think that'll change. There certainly will be a lot of focus on what's happening in the Western Hemisphere, particularly in places like Venezuela, even in places like Eastern Europe. The Russia, Ukraine war continues on very sadly. But it doesn't mean that there won't be an ongoing interest in trying to see real peace come to Israel and those neighbors that surround it.
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A
Ambassador Huckabee, we are called in the Bible to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. How can listeners do that specifically? And then also how can they be praying for you?
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B
Praying for the peace of Jerusalem is to pray that people will see each other as fellow human beings, whether they are Palestinian, Israeli, Jew, Muslim, Christian, or for that matter, Hindu, or whatever faith they may have. It's to look at people individually. That's how God looks at us. We believe that God has made each of us individually with intrinsic worth and value. And that our lives matter to him on a personal level, when we can transfer the way God sees us and see others that way, that's the first step to peace. As far as people praying for me, pray for stamina. Pray that I'll have wisdom when I'm dealing with people from all over the spectrum. And just pray that there will be a real sense in which Americans will understand the partnership between the US And Israel. Because a lot of Americans think, well, we do so much for Israel. What they may not know is what Israel does for us and how valuable it is to the United States and to every American. And part of my job is not only to communicate our message of the United States to the government of Israel, but it's also to communicate the value of our relationship back to the people.
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A
Of the U.S. well, Ambassador Huckabee, final question probably the most controversial. You're in the Middle East. What's the best food that you've had there?
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B
Wow, there's some great food here. The vegetables and fruits are so fresh, so nutritious. My wife and I are just blown away by how fantastic it is to get, I mean, right from the farm vegetables in Israel that are just delicious. And we love hummus. You get great hummus here. Wonderful fish. It's really a very healthy diet here. Good and healthy food on our plates every night.
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A
Well, Ambassador Huckabee, thank you so much for joining us. This is been a real pleasure. Thank you so much, Travis.
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B
Thank you. Great to be with you.
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A
Well, you've been listening to an extended interview with US Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee. I'm Travis Kercher. Please let us know you're listening. You can email us@editorng.org that's editorng.org you can also subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. We'll talk to you Monday. Go now in grace and peace. Have a great weekend.