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The World and Everything In It
Full Dallas Jenkins Interview on reimagining the Christmas story
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- [00:06]
A
Welcome to a special weekend interview from the world and everything in it. I'm Lindsay Mast. We recently had the opportunity to talk with Dallas Jenkins. You may know him as the creator of the Chosen, the multi season TV drama about Jesus and his disciples. But Jenkins latest project is directing a film version of the Best Christmas Pageant Ever. It's based on the children's novel of the same name written by Barbara Robinson more than 50 years ago. Jenkins says this is a passion project for him. It's something he pursued for years and that the story holds important lessons about the true meaning of Christmas. Today we'll talk with Dallas Jenkins about his personal connection to the story and how he hopes this film resonates with audiences, especially those who may not be familiar with the Nativity story. So we won't keep you waiting. Dallas Jenkins, welcome to the program.
- [00:58]
B
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad you've read the book and are as excited as I am to get this movie out there.
- [01:04]
A
Let's start with your own history with the book. When did you first read it?
- [01:08]
B
The more I've thought about it, I think it's actually closer to 20 years ago. My wife Amanda brought it home from Pottery Barn. She was there shopping and saw it on the counter. I think they were doing a little special for it or something and she's like, oh, yeah, I remember this book as a kid and it was a TV movie in the 80s, kind of a short little TV movie. And so we said, oh, let's read it to the kids. And so I was reading it and pretty quickly a couple things started happening. Number one, it's very, very funny. The story is just brilliantly written by the author, Barbara Robinson, who's unfortunately no longer with us. But so I was already laughing and going, man, this is funny. And then fairly early on, I'm like, this is a Jesus story. And it's a Jesus story. Fairly early on. The Herdmans are the worst kids in the history of the world, but they take over this church's Christmas pageant and they are, you know, through the course of the story, start asking all these questions because they've never heard the story before. And you ultimately find out that because of their poverty and their outsider status, they're actually closer to the heart of the Nativity story than even we are in our kind of suburban American church environment. And so we learn from them as much as they learn from us. And so as I'm reading the story, I get to the end of it. And in the, in the last Chapter I am weeping like I am. I can't read. And my wife goes, oh, let me read it. And so she starts read. She can't get through it because she's crying. So we just hand it back to each other. And so the Christmas tradition became to not only read this story to our kids every year, but for our kids to make fun of us for the fact that we could never get through it without crying.
- [02:35]
A
I do the exact same thing every time. So you read the book, you love it, and then what?
- [02:41]
B
Yeah, after that first time, I said, I have to make this movie. I. So I was searching for the rights, looking online everywhere. I tracked down this group of guys who have the rights and they said, oh, yeah, appreciate your passion, but it's already, you know, with a studio and they're developing it as a different kind of movie. And I was like, oh, man. And I had so many different opportunities over the years. The rights would expire at a studio and I would reach out to them again and go, please let me, let me do this movie. And they're like, well, no, because I was, you know, I hadn't had the success of the Chosen yet, and they wanted to do a big studio project with these big filmmakers. So I would check in every year, you know, praying that the movie wasn't getting made. And finally, just a couple years ago, the mom of one of the rights holders calls him up and says, you've got to watch this show called the Chosen. It is changing my life. It is so good. He goes, oh, that's funny. The creator has been bugging me for years to try to get the rights to this story. She's like, you better do it with him. You better give him the rights. And so the mom, the, you know, I think she was in her 70s at the time, you know, he made him go watch the show and he. He ultimately decided to, when the rights expired with the studio, to let me do it. And so we set it up with another studio and I got to be the filmmaker.
- [03:53]
A
So what about the story made you so passionate about getting it off the page and onto the big screen?
- [03:59]
B
This movie, I sometimes call it a Trojan horse. On the surface, it's a best selling book that's been read in public schools all over the country. It's performed as a play all over the world. But beneath the surface and in fact, not in a subtle way, it is the story of the Nativity. It is the story of how the power of Jesus and the power of church can actually truly change a kid's life, even a broken group of kids and how they can also kind of teach us something about the story of God and the story of Nativity. So I'm just really, really excited about this story getting to the world.
- [04:30]
A
We've mentioned the Chosen, and that has been so influential. But you've said that this is the movie you were born to make. Why do you feel that way?
- [04:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, the Chosen, of course, has turned out to be this kind of thing that came out of nowhere for me and it was birthed from failure. My previous movie had bombed at the box office and I did a short film for my church's Christmas Eve service. I do have. I do have a love of Christmas. That seems to be the spark for all of my projects. But that kind of came from, quote, unquote, nowhere. And by nowhere, I mean God kind of brought it to me in a way that I hadn't expected. But the thing about the Best Christmas Pageant ever is when people see it, they'll think, oh, wow, this is so different from the Chosen. Again, on the surface, the style, the tone, the time period. Of course, it's very different from the first century and the way that we shoot the Chosen. But the theme is actually similar. And that is telling the story of Jesus that we've heard a million times, but through a different lens. Not changing it, not changing the intention of it, not changing the character of Jesus in the Gospels, but telling it through a different lens, a different perspective. And just like people have said that they've experienced with the Chosen. And just like people say in the movie the Best Christmas Pageant Ever, it sometimes brings a story to life in a fresh way that they hadn't considered before and re engages and re energizes their relationship with God. And that's what I think this movie can do that's similar to the Chosen.
- [05:53]
A
Well, that's a great lead into my next question. You've got quite a bit of experience telling the story of Christ in a new way, very similar to the narrator in the book, thinking more deeply about it as it gets explained to the Herdmans. So how has your perspective on Christ's life on this earth changed as you brought it to the screen? In various ways, I think it's all.
- [06:13]
B
About the intimacy of God. I think we so easily, especially if we've been raised in the church or if we haven't been raised in the church, we see God as the God of the masses, the God. You know, he's sometimes. Maybe he's distant or formal. We have a reverence for God, that is a good thing. But sometimes that reverence can lead to a distance. And one of the things that I've discovered more than anything else in doing the Chosen, and I think this is also true of the Best Christmas Pageant ever, is that God's story is Emmanuel. God with us. That's really, really important. God became man and dwelt among us. He lived a life that we lived. Now, he didn't sin, of course, he's different from us in that sense, but he experienced emotions, he experienced pain, he experienced joy, he experienced laughter, experienced all the things we experienced. And every time we portray a miracle in the Chosen or we portray a rebuke, like when Jesus calls you, he rebukes you, or he's healing you, he does it to your heart specifically. It's not a one size fits all healing, rebuke, or calling. Now, the story of salvation, of course, is the same for each of us who accept Christ. But the story of how he reaches us is always unique and different and intimate because he knows our hearts. And I think that's what I've learned from doing the Chosen. It's what I've learned from doing the Best Christmas Pageant ever and reading it. And I think that's what seems to be resonating from. With viewers when they watch the Chosen and when they're even watching the Best Christmas Imagine ever so far is we're taking God down and we're taking Jesus the Son down from paintings and stained glass windows and statues and connecting him to our hearts intimately and personally.
- [08:02]
A
So how do you think non believers will receive a film like this? Is it an evangelism tool?
- [08:08]
B
Well, I'm always hesitant to use that term simply because I always believe and I love that term, and I consider myself an evangelical. But God's the one responsible for that heart change. I'm just trying to make the introduction. And so we have seen through the Chosen, of course, millions of people all over the world say they've come to Christ because of the show. I don't know what will happen with the Best Christmas Pageant ever. That's not my responsibility. But I do believe that this movie. Well, I know that this movie has already, for many people who've worked on it and for many people who've seen it, has introduced them to God and to the story of the Nativity in a new way and. And caused them to go, let me look into this again. So I absolutely believe that the movie will. Because it's through the eyes of this group of kids who've never heard the story before and they're asking all these questions, what does this mean and why did they do it that way and what. And that forces us to tell the story again and to consider the story again in a fresh way. And I do believe that the audience, particularly non believers, but hopefully Christians too are going to be reenergized in their knowledge of who Jesus is.
- [09:12]
A
There are a couple of lines in the trailer, you've used them on some social media posts as well about Jesus being born for the Herdmans as much as he was for people sitting in church and that we'd be missing the point of the Christmas story if we turned the Herdmans away. Those aren't as overtly stated in the book. So I'm curious, can a movie pull off those kinds of lines without being heavy handed?
- [09:34]
B
Yeah, and that's what I think is so cool about it. You know, Judy Greer is an extraordinary actress. She's been doing this for decades and does a great performance in this movie and has been doing it for a long time. When you hear a line like that from someone like her, it doesn't feel like it's crowbarred into a movie that does where it doesn't belong. That's the beauty of this story. It's the beauty of Barbara's book. And I think it's the beauty of the movie, to be honest, is that because it's the Christmas story, because we're telling this story in an organic way, it doesn't feel like talking about the reason for the season, quote unquote. We don't use that term in this movie. But it doesn't feel out of place. It doesn't feel like it's intrusive. It feels like a natural conversation that would be had. So we have not seen from any believe non believers who've seen the movie or who took these roles to portray the roles or who worked on the movie, not a single person has ever said, oh, it feels on the nose. It feels like you're trying to convert. It feels like you're trying to preach. It feels very natural and organic. And so I do believe that when you see this movie, those lines are not going to feel at all like they're out of out of place or on the nose. They're going to feel like a natural message that no one can argue with.
- [10:45]
A
Well, Dallas, you've made another movie about an outsider with a shady past coming into church. I'm thinking of the resurrection of Gavin Stone. Tell me, how does this one compare to that?
- [10:56]
B
Well, I certainly Hope that this movie compares to that one favorably in the opening weekend box office because that movie came and went pretty quickly. That's a really insightful question on your part. I did say at the time when I was making Resurrection of Gavin Stone, which I am proud of, and I do think it was a good story, but I just wasn't the same filmmaker that I am today. And I think God's timing wasn't. Didn't want. I don't think he wanted that movie to succeed because I think he wanted me to do the Chosen and he had a lot to teach me about it. But I think at the time I was like, maybe if I can't do Christmas Pageant because I can't get the rights, maybe I'm going to do this one and this will be my version of it. Yeah, I love telling the story of Jesus through the eyes of an outsider because I do believe that we can get so used to the story and take it for granted to where it becomes routine. And I think we miss out on the power of it. And so often it takes an outsider, it takes a newcomer to not only revive the story in our hearts, but for the story to kind of revive in their hearts or to be made. Made anew when they're. When they're coming at the story from a unique perspective. And so, yeah, there are similarities to the movies, but I think if you watched both of them, you would see that. Best Christmas Pageant Ever. Not only is a better film, but it is different. I mean, it is. The tone of it, the storyline of it is. Is different. It's just got a similar setup, but I think you'll find strong differences. But again, they both came from me. And I love Jesus and I want people to know and love him more. And so that's going to be a theme of all my movies. So they're all going to be similar in.
- [12:23]
A
Well, we've come a long way from the Christmas pageants that you read about in this book or in the Ramona Quimby books with their preschool angel choirs and shepherds dressed in their dad's bathrobes and such. Your own work, I would say, has brought the production level of Christian storytelling up by a few notches. Is there still a place, though, for more quaint tellings of Jesus story?
- [12:46]
B
Absolutely. I think there's something charming about the quaintness of it because that's actually the story itself. And you see that in this movie. There's a moment I don't want to give too much away. Although the title calls it the best Christmas pageant ever. So, you know, things do work out. But Imogene Herdman, who's the meanest and the baddest of the Herdman kids, is portraying the part of Mary. And the tradition in that church Christmas pageant is for Mary to be dressed in white and to practically have a halo around her head, to be this sweet, you know, pretty little thing that's presented as almost perfect, right? And like a lot of nativities that we see. And Imogene brings from home the tablecloth and she wraps it around herself and she even says to one of the girls, if I'm going to play Mary, I'm going to look like the real Mary. And she brings to it the quaintness and the, you know, maybe poverty is too strong a word, but, but, but I think it's accurate. She brings to the story the truth of it, which is that Mary and Joseph and the stable and the animals and all of that stuff are not. We're not cutesy and sweet, and it wasn't also big and epic like we sometimes portray. So I think there is something to be said for that simplicity and the quaintness of it. And I think that when we can see the heart of Jesus through quaintness and we don't need spectacle, I think that's actually closer to the heart of the story.
- [14:12]
A
Well, Dallas, now that you've made the best Christmas pageant ever, what's eating at you next? What else needs to be made?
- [14:20]
B
Season five and season six of the Chosen. So I did take Christmas Pageant. That was the one project that my wife and I would allow me to do in between seasons. But the Chosen is a full time job. I just added another full time job on top of it. But now that it's done, and now that we can release it to the world. Right now I'm working on the editing of season five, the writing of season six, and when we're done with the Chosen the seven seasons, I'll take a nap for a couple months and you'll be hearing about some other Bible projects that we want to do as well.
- [14:49]
A
Oh, sure. Can we do a Christmas lightning round?
- [14:52]
B
Of course. I always have time for Christmas.
- [14:54]
A
Okay, Favorite Christmas tradition?
- [14:57]
B
Watching It's a Wonderful Life with the family every Christmas Eve. No, there's not a close second.
- [15:02]
A
White Christmas or Winter Wonderland?
- [15:04]
B
Oh, White Christmas for sure.
- [15:06]
A
Okay. Real tree or fake?
- [15:08]
B
Neither. I don't. My wife does them. Fake is just fine. But all I know is I hate setting up either one of them.
- [15:17]
A
Put up the tree before Thanksgiving or after?
- [15:20]
B
After, for sure.
- [15:21]
A
Okay. Shop for gifts early or procrastinate?
- [15:24]
B
Procrastinate. That's how I live my entire life.
- [15:27]
A
Favorite Christmas food?
- [15:29]
B
Oh, great question. Christmas cookies. I go crazy with them.
- [15:34]
A
Presents on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning?
- [15:37]
B
Christmas morning. 100%.
- [15:38]
A
Well, Dallas Jenkins, thanks so much for giving us your time today.
- [15:42]
B
Oh, thanks so much for having me. Those were really wonderful questions and great conversations. So thank you.
- [15:49]
A
You've been listening to an extended interview with film and television director Dallas Jenkins. This is the full version of the edited conversation you heard earlier this week on the World and everything in It. Let us know you're listening. You can do that by dropping us a line. Email us@editorng.org or you can subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. We'll talk to you Monday. Have a great weekend.