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- [00:06]
Lynn Vincent
Wind check, please.
- [00:09]
Michael Schiavo
Wind 180 at 1. 5, gust 20 niner.
- [00:17]
Lynn Vincent
In Waco, Texas, George W. Bush steps down out of Marine One, the presidential helicopter. He's wearing a suit and tie, but he has none of the usual smiles or comments for onlookers or reporters. Instead, his manner is serious and businesslike. It's March 20, 2005, Palm Sunday. Terri Schiavo has been without food and water for two days. Bush interrupted his vacation at his Crawford, Texas ranch to fly Back to Washington, D.C. there, Congress is debating a bill. We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being. The American people are debating it, too. I totally miss the part in the Constitution where Congress was to convene to get into personal matters like this. Florida Governor Jeb Bush was the first of the famous brothers to get involved in the Schiavo case. Opponents say the Bushes are in cahoots with the religious right, that they're bent on undermining the Constitution. The judge in Terry's case, George Greer, certainly seems to think so. I have said publicly and privately that.
- [01:33]
Michael Schiavo
The Bush brothers either didn't take civics.
- [01:35]
Lynn Vincent
Or they slept through it. The brothers themselves say the fight is over due process. That so far, Terri Schiavo has had less due process than a convicted killer. As President, Bush boards Air Force One and takes off to the East. He's hoping to change that. From world radio and the creative team that brings you the world and everything in it, this is Lawless. I see a wicked man Walking down a broken road I see ransomed man in the storm Trying not to fall for gold Devil's at the door trying to take control but the Lord's gonna scatter his bones I'm New York Times best selling author and World Magazine senior writer Lynn Vincent. Lawless is a new true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life. That not every crime is against the law. In season one of Lawless, we're investigating the Terri Schiavo story, a case that in 2005, shocked. This is episode five, Bad Blood. Bobby Schindler is furious. It's Valentine's Day, 12 years before President Bush interrupted his vacation to jet back to Washington, D.C. at the House on Hermecita Street, Bobby grabs his car keys and heads out the door. Michael has just had a screaming match with Terry's father, Bob Schindler. The fight was over money. Terry's mother, Mary, says Michael threw his books against the wall. The two men nearly came to blows right there at Sable Palms Nursing Home, right next to Terry, who was sitting in her chair. Mary had to jump in between them. Bobby hears about it the same day, and he is livid.
- [04:00]
Bobby Schindler
I didn't go over there to harm him. I was mad. I was gonna go over to confront him and ask him what the heck was he doing. You've been saying all along you're gonna do this and do that. And my parents believed you. We believed you. Now out of nowhere, you're gonna tell us that you're not gonna do anything to help our sister after you received the money.
- [04:21]
Lynn Vincent
Bobby is already in the driveway when Mary runs after him, begging him not to go and confront Michael. But Bobby is young and headstrong. She can't talk him down. Then Bob steps in.
- [04:36]
Bobby Schindler
And my dad saw how emotional I was. I knew that was a bad, bad thing to, you know, he was a bad idea. So he came and grabbed me, said, you know, he. If you want to talk to Michael, fine.
- [04:47]
Lynn Vincent
Not now.
- [04:48]
Bobby Schindler
And I didn't go. I don't know what would have happened if I had saw him as mad as I was.
- [04:55]
Lynn Vincent
Only three months before, Michael and the Schindlers had marched arm in arm into the courthouse. For two years before that, they'd worked side by side. There'd been tension, but somehow they'd worked it out. Now, though, the relationship is short, shattered. And the meticulous care for Terry, the manicures, the walks, the makeup. Fran Kastler has something to say about that. We would go to the nursing homes and he would take care of Terry like she was a little doll. He would have her made up, he would have her hair done, he would have outfits, completely dressed. Then that all stopped. More importantly, so does therapy. All that rehabilitative care the jury saw in that video during the malpractice trial. According to a former nursing assistant at Sable Palms and others, Michael ordered that stop, too. On July 16, 1993, Bob Schindler writes a letter, makes one last appeal to his son in law. He reminds Michael of his promise to use the malpractice award to enhance Terry's medical and neurological care. Bob pleads with Michael to share information with them on Terry's condition. Asks him even to consider giving Terry back to them so that he, Michael, can move on with his life. Bob ends his letter this way. Are you ready to dedicate the rest of your life to Terry? We are. Let us know your feelings for the Schindlers. What Michael did next seemed to make his feelings perfectly clear. In the summer of 1993, Mary drives to Sable Palms to visit Terry. Outside, it's a trademark tropical day. Inside, she sits with Terry in the air conditioned reception area near the entrance. Mary on a little round seat and Terry in a wheelchair.
- [07:13]
Mary Schindler
We were talking to her and this other nurse came up and said, well, she looks pretty good, doesn't she? Something like that. And I said, yeah, she looks great.
- [07:22]
Lynn Vincent
Then the nurse said Terri had been.
- [07:25]
Mary Schindler
She was in the hospital and we didn't know that.
- [07:30]
Lynn Vincent
The nurse tells Mary that Terry has been suffering from a serious urinary tract infection. That she'd been on intravenous antibiotics for a couple of days, then switched to oral antibiotics.
- [07:42]
Mary Schindler
That's how we found out. She said, yeah, she told us. She said, yes, it's a good thing she's on the antibiotics or she would have had sepsis.
- [07:51]
Lynn Vincent
Sepsis, that's what happens when a person's body turns on itself because of an infection that gets out of control. Left untreated, sepsis triggers a cascade of symptoms. Fever, difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, a runaway heart rate, and then death. Terry gets UTIs every once in a while. Mary is relieved to know that the nursing home had caught the infection. But it concerns her that Terry has been in the hospital without her knowing it.
- [08:21]
Mary Schindler
All I remember is I went home and I didn't say anything when I was there because I never found out my information that much when I was there. I used to find it out more on the phone.
- [08:31]
Lynn Vincent
That's because after that Valentine's Day fight, Michael ordered SablePalms not to share any of Terri's medical information with her parents.
- [08:40]
Mary Schindler
There's this one nurse that could talk to me on the phone, and when I got home, I called and she's the one that told me.
- [08:48]
Lynn Vincent
What the nurse says on the phone jolts Mary. Michael had ordered the sabalpalm staff not to treat Terry's uti, not to give her antibiotics. Michael had decided to let the infection turn to sepsis, which he was aware would likely end Terry's life. This isn't just the nurse's interpretation, and it isn't Mary's. That fall, Michael would say the same thing in a deposition. More on that in a moment. Now, which month Michael ordered doctors not to treat Terry's infection. That's in dispute. Mary says June or July, Michael says August. But there's no question that in this escalating family feud, the summer of 1993 was a hot one. That July, Michael is hanging out at an orthodontist's office. Not most people's idea of a good time, but Michael's friends with the orthodontist and the all female office staff. Well, they decide to do a little matchmaking. The girls at the front desk tell Michael there's a patient in the waiting room that he should meet. A brunette in her late 20s, Jodi Sentones. Michael writes about that first meeting in his 2005 book, The Truth. He says that when he first sees Jody, he tries not to stare. She had long, beautiful legs, he writes. I'm thinking gorgeous girl. Michael follows Jody back to the treatment room. The little flock of dental matchmakers giggles as they pass. Michael and Jody start chatting and keep chatting even as the staff begins to work on her teeth. Later, Michael walks Jody to her car, asks her if she'd like to go to dinner. Jody looks at Michael and says three c simple words. I don't date. But Michael Scheibo isn't a man who gives up easily. A few weeks later, Michael asks Jody out again. They go to lunch and hit it off. The first time they went on a real date, Michael follows up with a dozen red roses. His relationship with Jody is his second romantic one since Terry was injured in February 1990. In fact, it's his second within the previous 18 months. Michael met Jody in July 1993. I'd like to ask Jody about those days, about that summer. Hi, this is Lynn Vincent. I'm calling for Jodi Santonzi. Please give me a call back regarding a podcast I'm doing on the Terri Schiavo case. Thank you very much. Bye bye. I had to leave a message. So far Jody hasn't called me back, but there's still time. It was late summer 1993 when Bob and Mary Schindler decided to file suit against their son in law. Their goal, to remove him as Terry's guardian. The Schindlers had been upset over their falling out with Michael, but the speed with which he'd changed his plans for Terry's future, it was like whiplash. Now the Schindlers needed a lawyer. They turned to Jim Sheehan. I traveled with my co writer Anna Johansen Brown to meet Sheehan in May 2021. We meet on a lush green street in the historic old northeast neighborhood of St. Petersburg. Hi, I'm Anna.
- [12:35]
Jim Sheehan
Hi, Anna, nice to meet you.
- [12:37]
Lynn Vincent
I'm Lynn.
- [12:38]
Jim Sheehan
Nice to meet you.
- [12:39]
Lynn Vincent
Thanks for coming by.
- [12:40]
Jim Sheehan
My pleasure.
- [12:42]
Lynn Vincent
Our interview takes place in the tiny living room of a nearby Airbnb.
- [12:46]
Jim Sheehan
Well, tell me a little bit about this project.
- [12:49]
Lynn Vincent
I will. Sheehan is slim and tan, white haired and confident. He looks like Florida blue polo shirt Silver seersucker shorts and boat shoes. These days, Sheehan's a professor of law at Stetson University.
- [13:04]
Jim Sheehan
Maybe I should just tell you what I know.
- [13:06]
Lynn Vincent
He's also a careful man. He tells me right up front that he'll share only what he remembers about his own involvement in the Schiavo case. Beyond that, he won't speculate. Sheehan tells me he first learned of the Schindlers from their friend Fran Kassler in late summer 1993.
- [13:25]
Jim Sheehan
I was an attorney practicing in downtown St. Petersburg. I was a sole practitioner and Fran was my secretary. She just asked me if I could help them.
- [13:38]
Lynn Vincent
Fran told Sheehan about Michael's order to withhold antibiotics and about the Schindler's outrage. But Sheehan doesn't remember that as his primary reason for accepting the case for him. The whole case boiled down to one thing.
- [13:54]
Jim Sheehan
Michael had a conflict of interest. He was moving on with his life. And he was. He had this money that was supposed to be used to take care of Terry. So that created a conflict for him. If something happened to her, that money would be his. It wouldn't be spent on her well being, which to me was just a clear conflict of interest.
- [14:24]
Lynn Vincent
But Michael argues if he had a conflict of interest, the Schindlers did, too. He says his attorney, Steve Nelson, sent Bob and Mary a letter suggesting that the court appoint an independent guardian for Terry. That way, the Schindlers could share decision making authority with Michael. But the Schindlers never replied to that offer, Michael says, which confirmed his view that Bob Schindler was only in it for Terry's money. November 19, 1993. Jim Sheehan is driving over to Oakbrook Plaza in Clearwater to the law office of attorney Stephen Nilsen. Sheehan is about to depose Michael Schiavo. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous Florida Day. 77 in St. Pete, 76 in Clearwater. News and weather together at the top and bottom of every hour. Those warm temperatures would soon seem mild compared to the heat about to be generated in Nielsen's office. For Sheehan, the question at the center of Schindler vs Schiavo, version 1, was which party Michael or the Schindlers would be the best guardian for Terry.
- [15:39]
Jim Sheehan
That was the way I was going to present it, as simply, judges should transfer guardianship from Michael, who's moving on with his life, to Bob and Mary because it's their daughter, it's their life to take care of their daughter, whatever that is.
- [16:00]
Lynn Vincent
Remember, this guardianship action occurred years before the feeding tube case that got so much public attention. But the guardianship fight itself would trigger indignance, even derision, that lasted long after Terry's death. Terry needed a guardian because she was incapacitated. But as Michael's first attorney, Dan Greco, pointed out, that role doesn't automatically fall to the spouse in the state of Florida and in many other jurisdictions. Still, there were a lot of people who were outraged that Terry's parents thought they could somehow displace her husband as Terry's guardian. Here are Michael Hobbs and Sarah Marshall, hosts of the podcast you're wrong about still whinging about it in 2019. The Schindlers have no standing under the law to do this, because the entire law is set up that the surrogacy of the person switches from the parents to the spouse when they get married. This is the entire basis of law.
- [16:59]
Michael Schiavo
Right.
- [16:59]
Lynn Vincent
They're like, you can't invalidate heteronormativity. I'm sorry. Yeah. And so essentially, they're arguing that they have some sort of right to supersede her spouse. There is no legal basis for that whatsoever. Sorry, Hobbs and Marshall, you're wrong about that, so to speak. No. Under Florida's guardianship statute, then and now, the court may appoint any person who is what the law calls fit and proper and qualified the law. And the courts give preference to people related by blood or marriage. That means the Schindlers had just as much right to become Terry's guardians as Michael did. Sheehan pulls into Oakbrook Plaza, parks, and heads inside. It's early afternoon by the time he sits down with Michael and his attorney, Steven Nielsen. Bob Schindler is in the room, also a court reporter. I have the transcript she prepared. The deposition makes extremely interesting reading. We've posted the whole thing for you@lawlesspodcast.com in the notes for this episode, even though the transcript is almost 20 years old, you can almost hear the room crackling with static. That's because when Sheehan begins questioning, Michael, Nielsen objects to everything. Over the next two hours and 20 minutes, he'll object more than 50 times. About a third of the way in, Sheehan tells him, we can do this all day. Sheehan first asks Michael about his romantic relationships with Cindy and Jody, both of which Michael confirms. Then Sheehan turns to medical questions. He asks Michael whether he had changed any recent instructions to the Sable Palm staff with regard to Terry's care. As I say, the only record here is by a legal transcriptionist, so no audio is available, but the following is.
- [19:07]
Michael Schiavo
Word for word after speaking with my doctor, I gave an order not to treat a bladder infection Terry had. I talked to him about what he felt Terry's future was, and he told me that Terry is basically going to be like this for the rest of her life.
- [19:24]
Lynn Vincent
And what did the doctor say would happen if Terry wasn't treated with antibiotics?
- [19:29]
Michael Schiavo
That sometimes urinary tract infections will turn to sepsis, an infection throughout the body. The patient would pass on Michael names.
- [19:40]
Lynn Vincent
The doctor he says suggested not treating Terry's next infection, which eventually would turn to sepsis and take her life. It was a respected internist, he said, but that would seem to violate Florida law if Sable palms were not to treat Terry for something that wasn't life threatening. Otherwise, Terry's UTI had nothing to do with her disability, which was brain damage. Allowing an infection to rage out of control wouldn't have been letting Terry die. It would have been actively killing her. So here's my question. Would that doctor really have counseled Michael to act in a way that might violate the law? Sadly, I can't ask him. When I called his home, his wife told me he passed away five years ago. Let's go back to the deposition. Michael at first claimed it was the internist who suggested inducing sepsis. That the conversation took place in July 1993. Later in the deposition, though, Michael said no doctor made that sepsis suggestion prior to November 18, 1993. When Michael said that, Nielsen stepped in with a long string of objections. Let me just boil them down. Nielsen said Sheehan's questions were unfair and improper, that Michael couldn't hold all Sheehan's questions in his mind at the same time. So Sheehan asked Michael again who advised him not to treat Terry's infection. Michael then returned to his previous answer. It was the internist back in July. Now Sheehan puts it all together, connecting intentions with outcome. Sheehan wants to know, so when you made the decision not to treat Terry's bladder infection, you in effect, were making a decision to allow her to pass on.
- [21:44]
Michael Schiavo
I was making a decision on what Terry would want.
- [21:48]
Lynn Vincent
There it is, the question that would form the burning center of the very public debate that would consume America. What did Terri Schiavo want? Back in 1993, though, Sheehan asks Michael a simple question. How does he know what Terry wants?
- [22:06]
Michael Schiavo
She was my wife. I lived with her. We shared things. We shared a bed. We shared our thoughts.
- [22:14]
Lynn Vincent
Michael then gives Sheehan an example. It's a story about a train ride he and Terry took in late 1985 or 1986. At the time, Terry's grandmother was dying, and according to Michael, Terry was in a reflective mood. She started talking about an uncle of hers. He'd lost his wife and child in a tragic accident. He was grieving, I believe.
- [22:40]
Michael Schiavo
He went out one night, had a few drinks and wrapped his car around a telephone pole. And her uncle was in a coma for a while and emerged a man that she never knew anymore. He was disabled. He can't walk. He can't do things for himself. His kids are his power of attorney now. We got into a discussion about that, and she said to me, I would never want to live like that. I would just want to die.
- [23:12]
Lynn Vincent
If you've been listening to Lawless, you've already met the man Michael said prompted that conversation. His name is Uncle Fred. Let's rewind to episode three. When we recounted Terry and Michael's wedding. I mentioned a handsome older man. I mentioned his Navy suit, that he walked with a slight limp and a cane. I asked Uncle Fred's daughter, Kathy Brown, about her dad's accident and his recovery. At the time, Brown was a nurse. She and her sister used cutting edge therapies to pull their dad out of his coma. It took them a week. Within a month, they were taking him out to dinner at fancy restaurants. That was 1980. He was responsive. He was starting to talk again. And we got to the table, we pushed him up against the table and he pulled his napkin to put it on his lap. And I started to cry. That's when I knew he was back. Michael says Terry told him the story about Uncle Fred's profound and continuing disability in late 1985 or early 1986. But there's Uncle Fred in that 1984 wedding video, strolling through the receiving line, smiling and chatting, kissing Terry on the cheek and shaking Michael's hand. Why is all this important? Because the Uncle Fred story would become the centerpiece. In fact, the only piece of Michael's first attempt to have Terry's feeding tube removed. By claiming she wouldn't have wanted to live. You'll hear a lot more from Kathy Brown in episode six. Back in Nielsen's office, Jim Sheehan asked Michael whether if Terry got another infection, he'd instruct doctors not to treat her again. He says, probably not.
- [25:03]
Michael Schiavo
Evidently, there's a law out there. Says I can't do it.
- [25:06]
Lynn Vincent
But what about this time? Sheehan wants to know, when Michael made the decision that likely would have ended Terry's life, did he think he had any obligation to let her parents know?
- [25:18]
Michael Schiavo
I probably would. Have let them know sooner or later.
- [25:26]
Lynn Vincent
Jim Sheehan filed the Schindler's guardianship case in the Circuit court of the 6th Judicial District in February 1994. Circuit Court Judge Thomas Pinnock Church Jr. Appoints a guardian ad litem for Terry that's different from a regular guardian.
- [25:43]
Michael Schiavo
Guardian ad litem is a position that I believe every state in this country has as part.
- [25:50]
Lynn Vincent
That's attorney Jay Wolfson. He would later become Terry's guardian ad litem in the feeding tube case.
- [25:56]
Michael Schiavo
When there's a party in an action that the state has determined is legally incapacitated and they do not have their own representation, there are other parties, such as family members, who are disputing issues associated with that person's rights, or if the state itself has a concern about the exercise of that person's rights, then a guardian atleta may be appointed by the courts.
- [26:29]
Lynn Vincent
The feeding tube case wouldn't be filed for another five years. In the 1993 case, Terry's guardian ad litem is a man named John Pesaryk. Pesaryk is an imposing man, six foot three and a half. Reminds people of the actor Gregory Peck. Part of Pessaryk's job is to investigate allegations against Michael Scheibo and make a determination. Is he a fit guardian for his wife? Pesaryk is the investigator who conducted interviews with 13 members of the Sable Palms nursing staff. He's the one who learned that Michael yelled and screamed, intimidated the staff, that his treatment of nurses caused them to break down in tears. Pesaryk was appointed on February 23, 1994. One week later, he was ready to deliver his report.
- [27:23]
Jim Sheehan
So we were prepared for an evidentiary hearing. The judge called the guardian to lide him up. He basically read his report and his opinion was that Michael should remain his guardian.
- [27:38]
Lynn Vincent
In his report, Pesarek says Michael was a nursing home administrator's worst nightmare. Those are the actual words in his report. But Pesaryk says that Michael's poor treatment of Terry's nurses actually got her more attention than the other residents. He thinks it's a good thing. As soon as Pesrick finishes delivering his report, Judge Pinnock says, that's it.
- [28:04]
Jim Sheehan
I'm denying the petition.
- [28:06]
Lynn Vincent
And the judge walks out. The Schindlers had lost. Michael would remain Terri's guardian. Sheehan is shocked.
- [28:17]
Jim Sheehan
Neither attorney got to cross examine him. Both of us wanted to.
- [28:21]
Lynn Vincent
He wants to ask Pessaryk, what about that conflict of interest? And Sheehan wants to know, could it really be that Michael is the best person to care for Terri when he'd already tried once to end her life. To Sheehan, the worst thing was that Pennock dismissed the Schindler's case with prejudice. That meant the Schindlers could never again challenge Michael's guardianship in court. When I talk to her now, Mary Schindler has a lot of regrets about that time.
- [28:53]
Mary Schindler
It was just things were happening so fast to be thrown in front of all this stuff, you know, like this, that I just wasn't that type of person, came from a little town, and I just wasn't used to all that stuff. And all that stuff they were talking about, all that legal stuff, I didn't want any part of it.
- [29:15]
Lynn Vincent
She says they were just an ordinary family, that they didn't know the ins and outs of the legal system. Plus, they were optimistic. The Schindlers believed that at the end of the day, justice would prevail. After all, how could anyone knowingly hurt their little girl? By the spring of 1994, Michael and Jody have been dating for about 10 months. It's been on again, off again. But every time they start to get really close, Michael says he feels conflicted, part of him still remembering his wife. He'd break things off. Then a month later, he'd call Jody just to talk. And then it would grow into something more. But In April of 1994, they break up again. This time, it's Jody who ends things. Michael takes a call from another woman right in front of her. Furious, she tells him he's ripped heart out for the last time and walks out. And they don't speak again for a very long time. That same month, Michael moves Terri out of Sable Palms and into a different nursing home, Palm Garden.
- [30:35]
Carla Sauer Iyer
When I first came on board, they had her at the front of the nursing station.
- [30:39]
Lynn Vincent
When visitors would enter, that's registered nurse Carla Sauer Iyer.
- [30:44]
Carla Sauer Iyer
She would just smile. She would actually react. She reacted to her environment. She reacted to people. She reacted to her name. After a while, visitors that are regular to come in to see their loved ones would know Terry and hi, Terry. And she would act with a giggle and she would just light up.
- [31:03]
Lynn Vincent
On Michael's orders, Terry receives no therapy at Palm Garden except for what the nurses managed to slip in behind Michael's back.
- [31:11]
Carla Sauer Iyer
Michael didn't want range of motion or any pt, physical therapy or speech therapy, occupational therapy.
- [31:17]
Lynn Vincent
When Carla was hired there, she received a sober warning. Cross Michael Scheibo and you will be fired. She crossed him anyway.
- [31:27]
Carla Sauer Iyer
We actually put, you know, like washcloths in her hands, were Contracted and underneath her knees and put her booties on her feet so she wouldn't get bed sores. And he wanted. He said that was therapy. Take it out.
- [31:45]
Lynn Vincent
I went to visit Carla in the strawberry capital of the world, Plant City, Florida. She's blonde and colorful. Pink lipstick and turquoise eyeliner. We conduct our interview in a guest house Carla and her husband have on their property. Carla has it decorated with Disney World castoffs, items she picked up for a few dollars apiece during the equivalent of theme park garage sales. Big, tall Vera Bradley bookcases, an entire giant rack of unopened DVDs. Carla cared for Terry at Palm Garden for about 18 months between 1995 and 1996. She's actually a little like Terry. A heart for the weak and injured. Terry rescued one of her own cats, Shana, as an injured kitten. When I visit Carla, she's in the process of rescuing a kitten, too. A tabby, maybe eight or 10 weeks old. The kitten looks.
- [32:45]
Carla Sauer Iyer
Well, I know she looks awful, but she was arrived at my door, so I don't know if she was dropped or she wandered over. Red, bulging, bleeding eyes. Her eye, this eye was really out of the socket. So I gently put it kind of in. Put a glove on and kind of pushed it back in. Put some liquid antibiotics like amoxicillin. And the veterinarian wanted either to euthanize her or just take both eyeballs out, saying she's blind.
- [33:22]
Lynn Vincent
What was your reaction when the vet said euthanizer?
- [33:25]
Carla Sauer Iyer
Oh, absolutely not. I don't agree. In euthanasia, whatever you can save and, you know, just work with a. With a patient or an animal in this case, and give a lot of tlc, a little bit of. Little bit of infection. Everybody can have an eye infection. Do we. Do we euthanize those people?
- [33:47]
Lynn Vincent
Michael and Jody's breakup in April 1994 lasts longer than the others. They don't speak for months. But finally, Michael calls Jody just to talk again. And soon they're back together. That October, the two of them are outside doing yard work at Jody's house, digging in the dirt, laying fresh sod out front. That's when Michael asks a big question. He wants to know if Jody will marry him someday. Jody doesn't remember exactly what she said. Something like, whatever. She doesn't really believe him until Michael reaches into his pocket and pulls out a ring. Next time on Lawless. And the Terry that I saw laid in the bed. Her eyes were open. You know, some people said, you know, her eyes were expressive. I never found that to be true. She was in, by that time, a persistent vegetative state. Lawless is a production of World Radio. Our executive producer is Paul Butler. Our production assistant is Lilly Hammond. Music by Will Sheehan. Lawless is reported and written by Anna Johansen Brown, Bonnie Pritchett, and me, Lynn Vincent. For a list of additional audio sources in this episode, visit lawlesspodcast.com thank you for joining us. Oh.