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- [00:00]
Jim Avery
I gotta do an L check. Full patrol 75. And I get North Carolina.
- [00:04]
Lynn Vincent
Okay, give me one moment. I got all. For all of March 2005, the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office has been on high alert. For six weeks. Judge George Greer has been under police protection. Greer is the probate judge who ordered Terry's feeding tube removed.
- [00:20]
George Greer
We had details of undercover deputy Sheriffs at our home 24 7. They took us wherever we went.
- [00:27]
Lynn Vincent
Detectives open Greer's mail and monitor his phone calls. On the lookout for new threats, they patrol his home, the courthouse, and the house where Michael lives.
- [00:39]
George Greer
I wore a bulletproof vest when I wasn't in the courthouse and wasn't at home. When I walked the dog, I wore a bulletproof vest.
- [00:46]
Lynn Vincent
Terry's feeding tube has been out for two days. With the Schiavo case splashed across headlines from here to Timbuktu, activists on both sides are agitating for action. And some are making criminal threats. Somewhere in the United States, a user logs on to America Online. The user's name is Jimbo 037000. He has a plan to save Terri Schiavo. A couple of plans, actually. In a chat room, Jim first proposes a payout of $1 million. The money will go to Michael Schabo if he'll agree to divorce Terri and just walk away. If Michael won't do that, Jimbo has another plan. Ask Terry if she wants a divorce and get her to nod her head yes in response. If that doesn't work, there's always plan C. Jimbo types the details into the chat room message app. Plan C also involves a million dollars. Jimbo will give that money to any good Samaritan who's willing to track down Michael Schiavo and Judge George Greer and take them out from World Radio and the creative team that brings you the world and everything in it. This is Lawless.
- [02:19]
Jim Avery
I see a wicked walking down a broken road I see ransomed man in the stone Trying not to fall for gold Devil's at the door trying to take control but the Lord's gonna scatter his bones.
- [02:40]
Lynn Vincent
I'm New York Times best selling author and World magazine senior writer, Lynn Vincent. Lawless is a new true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life. That not every crime is against the law. And now, episode six, do you want to die? In August 1997, Mary Schindler walks out to the mailbox. The past few years have been quiet on the legal front, a kind of limbo. Terry has been living at Palm Garden Convalescent center receiving basic care but no rehab. On two different occasions in 1993 and 1995, Terry has come down with an infection and Michael has tried to deny her antibiotics. But both times, nursing home staff went against his wishes and treated Terry anyway. Remember in 1993, the Schindlers fought Michael for Terry's guardianship, but a judge ruled against them, unsure what to do next. They've just been waiting, and now the other shoe is about to drop. Mary opens her mailbox, and it was just shocking shock.
- [04:11]
Mary Schindler
Yeah, absolute.
- [04:13]
Lynn Vincent
Inside the mailbox, Mary finds a letter. It's from a stranger, an attorney named George Philos. He writes that Michael Schiavo has hired him in the issue of withdrawal and or refusal of medical treatment for your daughter. Philos is referring to Terry's feeding tube. Michael is about to file a petition to have it removed.
- [04:36]
Mary Schindler
I never expected anything like that. Neither did my husband.
- [04:40]
Lynn Vincent
They might have if they had known Michael had sought out Philos's services. Or that a decade before, Philos had a spiritual conversion that would intersect with Terry's life in ways none of them could ever have imagined. It began in 1986 at a yoga center called Kripalu in the Berkshires in Massachusetts. Philos was attending a retreat called the Expanded Self, which was designed to facilitate personal transformation. Philos was transformed. He describes a healing from old emotional wounds so profound that he experienced a rocket of energy that exploded up my spine and out the top of my head. Philos found himself hurled into the heights of spiritual ecstasy. In his words, he was baptized in mystical fire. Floating in euphoria. Philos felt the joy of grass growing, was at one with a flock of birds. As they wheeled and swooped in the sky, Philos heard the unspoken thoughts of other people. He saw other people's souls. Not metaphorically, he would later write. Actually, back in Florida after the retreat, Philos maintained no interest in his pre Kripaloo life. Not friends, social occasions, entertainment, alcohol, sex, even his law career. Instead, he's gripped in euphoria, vibrating with joy and sometimes darkness. He awakens in the middle of the night to his body involuntarily twisted into asanas, yoga positions. Each morning, he awakens eagerly at 4:30am for three or four hours of yoga and meditation at his law office. Philo spends huge chunks of time devouring religious texts, the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita and other holy Hindu writings. He's locked like a laser entirely on his new purpose in life, God realization. His monk, like zeal, makes his family and friends uncomfortable. His wife is afraid he's on the verge of becoming non functional. What his wife may not have known is that Philos brought something else home with him from Kripalu. A brand new fascination with death. A couple of weeks after Kripaloo, George Filos drives over to visit a patient in a nursing home. Her name is Estelle Browning and she's 89 years old. Cut down by a massive stroke, Browning is now locked in a vegetative state, unable to speak. Prior to her stroke, Browning executed a living will in which she specifically declined a feeding tube. But the nursing home staff is refusing to honor this advance directive. And Browning's cousin, Doris Herbert, isn't happy about it. Herbert, a stone, a sturdy white haired New Englander, has hired Philos to intervene. At the nursing home, Philos finds Browning's room, enters and stands by the bed. Browning is curled into the fetal position. Next to her bed, there's an IV stand. From it hangs a plastic sack of thick fluid that seeps into Browning through a nasogastric tube. Philos has seen Browning's advance directive. The question on his mind now is now that she has one, does Browning want that feeding tube removed? Does she want to die? Filos needs to know for sure before he accepts the case. But how? Browning is in a vegetative state and unresponsive. But back at Kripaloo, Filos had heard people's unspoken thoughts. Maybe that's why he decides to ask her. Philos raises his Voice, nearly shouting, Mrs. Browning, do you want to die? Do you want to die? Back at Kripolu, Philos had bought a book on something called conscious dying. It taught that meditation and spiritual practice is the process of dying, of extinguishing our egos and our bodies, of realizing that we are the expression and manifestation of the divine. In his 2002 book, Litigation as Spiritual Practice, Philos describes what happened next. As he gazes at Mrs. Browning, he begins to feel light headed. And he notices a strange quality to the light in the room. Philos writes, as Mrs. Browning lay motionless before my gaze, I suddenly heard a loud, deep moan and scream. Philos writes that Browning hasn't moved or uttered a sound, but he hears her anyway. Again in his words, I sensed her soul in agony. As she screamed, I heard her say in confusion, why am I still here? Why am I here? Philos feels his own soul touch Browning's soul. And in that moment, he promises her he'll do everything in his power to gain the release. Her soul cries for and with that, the screaming stops immediately. Philos feels he's back in his own head, and the room resumes its normal appearance. The incident startles him. He wrestles with it. Had the encounter been his imagination? No, he decides, this soul speak, as he would later call it, was real. And it's on the basis of this metaphysical communication, utterly silent, and which did not take place in time and space, that Philos agrees to become an agent of Estelle Browning's death. He's also found his new mission in life. Philos will help people break free of unwanted bonds to their earthly bodies, help them return to the divine essence, the universal consciousness. This will be his act of service and spiritual growth. George Philos will re enter his own life through the right to die. A year after Mary finds Filos first letter in her mailbox, the Schindlers receive another letter. It's May 1998. George Felos has officially filed Michael's petition to remove Terry's feeding tube. The petition claims that Terry specifically expressed.
- [12:06]
Bobby Schindler
Her desire not to remain alive should she be in an irreversible condition.
- [12:11]
Lynn Vincent
When Bobby learns Michael is claiming Terry said she'd want to die, he doesn't believe it.
- [12:17]
Bobby Schindler
Well, I think from the very beginning, I never believed that Terry ever made these alleged wishes and that Michael was again using this in another attempt to enter life because he had failed twice already by trying to stop antibiotics. I thought, okay, now he's going to try and do it this way. And this isn't going to work either, because nobody's going to agree to starve and dehydrate a disabled person to death when there's a family that's willing to care for her.
- [12:48]
Lynn Vincent
Plus, and there's another paragraph in Michael's request to remove artificial life support that has received essentially zero attention for the past 24 years. Here it is.
- [13:02]
Bobby Schindler
In the event the court does not find clear and convincing evidence of the ward's intent that the court make a finding, it is in the best interest of the ward that artificial life support be discontinued.
- [13:15]
Lynn Vincent
To put it plainly, if the judge isn't convinced that Terry expressed a wish to die, Michael wants him to order her death anyway. It was Philos, not Michael, who drafted the petition. Of course, by this time, Philos has been a key figure in the Florida right to die movement for more than a decade. In 1990, the same year Terry suffered her brain injury, Filos began volunteering at Florida Hospice of the sun coast in Largo, Florida, caring for patients. That same year, he also argued the Estelle Browning case at the Florida Supreme Court. Though Browning had already died of natural causes, Filos argued the case anyway, establishing in Florida the right to refuse life prolonging procedures. Unlike Browning, though, Terri didn't have an advance directive. So under Florida law, Michael has to have clear and convincing evidence of her wishes. Now, eight years after her collapse, Michael is claiming Terry told him she would never want to live this way.
- [14:23]
Jim Avery
And nobody believed it. You know, nobody talks about that back then.
- [14:27]
Lynn Vincent
That's Dr. Jim Avery, a physician who would later become involved in Terri's case. Avery would file an affidavit supporting the Schindlers and through a strange series of circumstances, become medical director of Florida Hospice of the Sun Coast.
- [14:43]
Jim Avery
And nobody talks about it when you're 20. But we see people lie about that all the time. I mean, that's just not uncommon, you know.
- [14:51]
Lynn Vincent
When Mary hears about the petition for the first time, she remembers thinking, this can't be Michael, her son in law. He used to call her mom.
- [15:01]
Mary Schindler
A lot of crying on my part. I know that.
- [15:04]
Lynn Vincent
Mary can feel her heart hardening toward Michael. She thinks about how he'd put Terry's cats to sleep. Now Mary thinks he wants to do that to Terry. Together, Mary and Bob decide to fight. In May 2021, my co writer Anna and I visited the Alexander Building with Bobby Schindler. The Alexander is in the historic district of downtown St. Pete. It was built in 1919. Four stories, brick, with white classical columns, squashed between an American restaurant and a pizza joint. Thirty years ago, attorney Pam Campbell's law offices were in this building. So it's very sedate and traditional with with diamond tuck leather chairs and big archways and coffered ceilings. When Michael filed the petition to remove Terry's feeding tube, the Schindlers had to find a lawyer to help them fight it. They chose Pam Campbell to represent them. She'd practiced guardianship and probate law for years already. But there was another reason the Schindlers chose Campbell. Money to pay filos. Michael would use the money in Terry's medical trust fund. But the Schindlers couldn't afford to hire a lawyer. Campbell took the case pro bono. These days, Campbell is a sitting probate judge in Pinellas county, so she declined our interview request. Another judge, the one who held all the cards in the Schiavo case, simply didn't respond.
- [16:50]
Bobby Schindler
We owe a great deal of gratitude as he embodies what judicial independence is all about. Great honor in introducing the honorable George.
- [16:59]
Lynn Vincent
W. Greer, Circuit judge. No one knew it at the time. But Judge George Greer was about to become the most famous judge in Pinellas county and maybe the most famous probate judge of all time. Probate court isn't glamorous. Probate judges are the ones who step in to distribute assets after a death in the family. Before he became famous for the Schiavo case, Judge Greer had another brush with fame.
- [17:28]
George Greer
Before Schiavo, My. My claim to fame was that one of my roommates for one semester at Florida State University was Jim Morrison. But it's kind of faded into oblivion. That's not bad.
- [17:40]
Lynn Vincent
That would be Jim Morrison. Morrison of the influential 1960s mega band the Doors.
- [17:46]
George Greer
And Morrison started off. We all kind of got along. It was kind of fun. We partied. We sometimes went to class.
- [17:55]
Lynn Vincent
After law school, Greer worked as an attorney, then ran for circuit judge. He's only been on the probate bench for a few months when the Schiavo case lands on his desk. By then, he's acquired both gray hair and a good reputation. Greer is known as impartial and unemotional, calm and even keeled. He calls himself a Southern Baptist at heart. By this time, he's been attending Calvary Baptist Church in Clearwater for 35 years. He got married there, baptized his sons there. He taught Sunday school and coached the church's basketball and softball teams.
- [18:35]
Willie Rice
There are people here who have been here decades, and they knew, you know, they would have called him George. You know, he taught in their Sunday school class.
- [18:42]
Lynn Vincent
Willie Rice became pastor of Greer's church in the early 2000s.
- [18:46]
Willie Rice
He was somebody that they had dinner with, somebody they knew.
- [18:49]
Lynn Vincent
At the time. Rice had no idea that he and Judge Greer would wind up in conflict over Terri Schiavo. Greer himself has never been asked to withdraw life support. In fact, he's never even heard of a persistent vegetative state. His only medical training was one class in law school called, appropriately, Law and Medicine. But Greer has a philosophy about how to navigate the law and ethics well.
- [19:17]
George Greer
To maintain integrity, you just need to do the right thing. It helps to be Scottish, but our job simply is to determine what the facts are, determine what the law is, and. And let the two mesh.
- [19:31]
Lynn Vincent
The Schindlers know Greer's reputation, and despite previous setbacks, they feel the judge will be able to untangle the facts in Terry's case and make a just ruling.
- [19:41]
Bobby Schindler
We were so confident based on Michael's conflicts of interest and the fact that my family was willing and wanting to care for Terry. We didn't think for a second he would ever rule in favor Of Michael.
- [19:50]
Mary Schindler
Yes. I figured that there's absolutely no way in this world that they would take a disabled person and take her feeding tube away, starve her to death.
- [20:04]
Lynn Vincent
When Michael files his 1998 petition, another key player enters the case. Attorney Richard Pierce. Pierce is randomly selected to become Terry's guardian ad litem. I spoke with him by phone in December 2021. Well, thanks for agreeing to talk with me about this case.
- [20:29]
Jim Avery
And I have agreed, and I understand I'm being recorded, and that's fine.
- [20:33]
Lynn Vincent
As guardian ad litem, Richard Pierce's job is to investigate the claims in Michael's petition.
- [20:38]
Jim Avery
I thought this was just another sort of routine assignment. And, boy, was I wrong about that. The husband, Michael, wanted one thing very badly, and the parents wanted something else very badly. So it became a case of the immovable object against the irresistible force.
- [20:59]
Lynn Vincent
When the case lands in Pierce's lap in 1998, the pyrotechnics that will one day light up. Schiavo versus Schindler are still years away. The litigation is still unfolding in a sleepy probate court involving issues settled in hundreds of cases every day. Is there evidence to support the party's claims? What do the witnesses say? What are the relevant statutes? According to Florida Statutes, Chapter 765, Michael as guardian or proxy, would likely be able to remove Terry's feeding tube. In brief, the chapter says that if Terry didn't leave an advance directive, her legally appointed guardian can make treatment decisions. There's just one condition, and I'll read from the statute here. Except that a proxy's decision to withhold or withdraw life's prolonging procedures must be supported by clear and convincing evidence that the decision would have been the one the patient would have chosen had the patient been competent. Clear and convincing is an evidentiary standard. It means that the evidence is substantially more likely to be true than untrue. That's a lower standard than the beyond a reasonable doubt standard that we're familiar with in criminal law. Here's something interesting about chapter 765. It does not say that the clear and convincing evidence has to be established by a court as Terry's health care proxy. If Michael had such evidence of Terry's wish to die, he could have withdrawn her feeding tube at any time. But Philos had warned Michael that the Schindlers would fight him on this, drag him into court, bury him in motions. So Philos had advised Michael to ask a judge whether the evidence met the clear and convincing standard and put in effect a judicial stamp of Approval on the whole matter. During his 44 years as an estate and elder care attorney, Richard Pierce often accepted appointments as guardian ad litem for incapacitated people. His approach to the job differed from some of his peers.
- [23:25]
Jim Avery
When I was appointed guardian ad litem, I always thought that was a protective sort of position where I was supposed to take Terry's side.
- [23:33]
Lynn Vincent
As Pierce begins his investigation, his guide star is due process. Other lawyers at the time would have said Pierce's job was to be unbiased, but that's not how he approached the job.
- [23:47]
Jim Avery
My one opinion that I've always held that has never changed is that Carrie should have been individually represented by somebody. And it didn't have to be me, but it needed to be somebody. But I felt that I was an advocate for Terry.
- [24:05]
Lynn Vincent
Pierce starts by interviewing all the people who are close to Terry. He talks to her parents, he talks.
- [24:12]
Jim Avery
To Michael, and he was pretty hostile to me.
- [24:15]
Lynn Vincent
Not explicitly hostile, Pierce says, but, well, difficult.
- [24:20]
Jim Avery
He had no interest in cooperating with me because I believe that he thought I was trying to side with parents against him. And, I mean, that would be a natural reaction for anybody who, you know, regards me as sympathetic to an adversary.
- [24:39]
Lynn Vincent
Pierce also goes to visit Terry.
- [24:42]
Jim Avery
And the Terry that I saw laid in the bed. Her eyes were open. She closed her eyes. Sometimes she would respond to deep stimulus. I watched a doctor one time put his thumb on her chest and pressed pretty hard, and she responded to that. She had a deep pain response, but she couldn't talk. She was bed bound at that point. And, you know, some people said, you know, her eyes were expressive. I never found that to be true. She. She just had a vacant glare. There's no question, my mind, that she was in by that time, a persistent vegetative state.
- [25:27]
Lynn Vincent
For months, both sides wait as Pierce completes his investigation. Finally, on December 20, 1998, he files his report with Judge Greer. Pierce recommends that Greer deny Michael's petition to have Terry's feeding tube removed.
- [25:46]
Jim Avery
You know, I just doubted his credibility generally. I felt like, you know, they were young people and this was a problem he wanted to get rid of. He had moved on. He wasn't really regarding Terry as his spouse anymore. It didn't seem like he was acting like a husband following marriage vows would.
- [26:07]
Lynn Vincent
Act to me like attorney Jim Sheehan before him, Pierce concludes that the chronology of the case raises issues about Michael's credibility. In his report, Pierce notes the aggressive care Michael pursued before the malpractice case, followed by the falling out with the Schindlers and The withdrawal of care after he got the money. Pierce also finds that Michael isolated Terri from her parents, withheld those antibiotics twice, and then filed his petition for the withdrawal of her feeding tube. It's worth reading directly from Pierce's report here. Again, this was written well before all the fireworks that would one day accompany the case. Michael petitioned to withdraw life support. Pierce writes, on the basis of evidence apparently known only to him, which could have been asserted at any time during the ward's illness. Pierce went on with some important legalese, but I'll bottom line it for you. One, Michael was the only witness to Terry's alleged wish to die. Two, Michael would be the direct beneficiary if Terry did die. 3. Therefore, Michael's evidence did not meet the clear and convincing standard. In our interview, Pierce zeroes in on the core reason he recommended that Judge Greer deny Michael's petition.
- [27:35]
Jim Avery
At the beginning, there was a lot of money sitting there, like three quarters of a million dollars sitting there. I thought that created a conflict of interest that I just couldn't ignore.
- [27:46]
Lynn Vincent
When the Schindlers hear Pierce's report, they're optimistic, but also realistic.
- [27:52]
Mary Schindler
I remember him telling us that with the conflicts that he thought, you know, he had with the girlfriend and, you know, the money, that he didn't think Michael, you know, should be her guardian. But that was just the start of it. I wasn't excited. No, I wasn't excited because, you know, the way Bob was taught and says, we're just starting this. He says to me, you know, he said, we've got a long way to go.
- [28:22]
Lynn Vincent
Still, the Schindlers feel Pierce's findings ratify their view of Michael's actions. Not just his petition, but everything going back to 1993. Bob thinks Greer may even throw Michael's case out of court. But the celebration doesn't last long. In response to Pierce's report, George Felos fires off a motion to Judge Greer. Felos requests that Greer discharge Pierce as Terry's guardian ad litem.
- [28:54]
Jim Avery
And he was going back. He was digging stuff up that I never thought anybody would throw in my face.
- [28:59]
Lynn Vincent
Philos accuses Pierce of bias. Pierce is furious and offended.
- [29:05]
Jim Avery
For one thing, if. If I was discharged, I felt Terry would have no representation at all. And that bothered me a lot. I thought she should have somebody. And as I recall, when I petitioned the court, I said, either expand my powers to represent her or appoint somebody else or do something.
- [29:28]
Lynn Vincent
Greer denies Pierce's petition and grants Philos's motion. Pierce is booted from the case. But Greer doesn't appoint a replacement and Terry will no longer have independent representation in Court in 1999. Lawyers for both sides take depositions to prepare for trial. Attorney Pam Campbell questions Michael. She asks him if he's considered turning Terry's guardianship over to the Schindlers.
- [30:01]
Willie Rice
No, I have not.
- [30:03]
Lynn Vincent
And why?
- [30:04]
Willie Rice
I think that's pretty self explanatory.
- [30:06]
Lynn Vincent
These are voice actors, but the transcript is verbatim. I'd like to hear your answer.
- [30:12]
Willie Rice
Basically, I don't want to do it.
- [30:16]
Lynn Vincent
And why don't you want to do it?
- [30:18]
Willie Rice
Because they put me through pretty much hell the last few years.
- [30:23]
Lynn Vincent
Can you describe what you mean by hell?
- [30:26]
Willie Rice
The litigation they put me through.
- [30:28]
Lynn Vincent
Any other specifics besides litigation?
- [30:31]
Willie Rice
Just their attitude towards me. Because of the litigations, there's no other reason. I'm Terri's husband and I will remain guardian.
- [30:40]
Lynn Vincent
Philos takes a moment with his client. Michael is then asked again if there's any other reason he won't turn over guardianship to the Schindlers.
- [30:49]
Willie Rice
Another reason would be her parents wouldn't carry out her wishes.
- [30:54]
Lynn Vincent
Bob and Mary Schindler also take their turn in the hot seat. Philos poses a string of gruesome hypotheticals, questions that seem designed to show that the Schindler's views of preserving life are extreme. For example, he asks what the Schindlers would do if, in order to stay alive, Terry needed a series of amputations. He asked the Schindlers whether they would allow doctors to lop off Terry's limbs one after the other. The Schindlers say yes. Three amputations into his questioning, I couldn't.
- [31:28]
George Felos
Even bear to ask myself about the last remaining limb in this hypothetical scenario. And I asked her mother, I said, well, if I know you don't agree that these are Terry's wishes, I know that. However, let's assume that it's undisputed she didn't want to be kept alive.
- [31:57]
Lynn Vincent
That's Philos speaking to Compassion and Choices of Washington in 2005. Compassion and Choices has a messy pedigree. In 1980, assisted suicide activist Derek Humphrey founded the Hemlock Society. That was five years after he spiked his wife's coffee with poison in 1975. Mrs. Jean Humphrey drank the poisoned brew and died. Mr. Humphrey said she did so willingly to escape the ravages of cancer. But Humphrey's second wife, Ann, said it was murder that Humphrey actually suffocated. Jean Humphrey was never charged and left the Hemlock Society in 2003. By then right to Die activists seemed to realize that Hemlock, a reference to the forced suicide of the Greek philosopher Socrates, maybe wasn't the best marketing strategy. Right to die groups began using terms like end of life and compassion. The Hemlock Society, thus rebranded, ultimately joined forces with groups like Compassion and Choices of Washington. And that's where George Philos was accorded a Hero's welcome in 2005, the year Terry died, the year it could be argued that Filos won the Schiavo case once and for all. It's with deep appreciation and understanding of his commitment to our issue that I invite you to join me in welcoming George Philos. Filos told the group more about Mary's deposition.
- [33:33]
George Felos
I said, why is it that you would keep her too fed and put her through that medical treatment? And her answer was, that's because that's what I would want for myself. Now I'm, I'm not making, I'm not making this up. Obviously, this is in the record. This was, this was her answer. And I was the. And I asked them my next question. Well, why is it that you'd want that for yourself? And she said, well, I believe that the body should be sustained by all treatments possible because it's God's will that we maintain life as long as possible.
- [34:18]
Lynn Vincent
Here's the thing about George. When I read his 2002 book, Litigation as Spiritual Practice, he struck me as a sincere man, given to deep introspection, soulful even. When we spoke by phone, I told him so. But this also struck me during and after the Schiavo case. Filos criticized those who held to a Judeo Christian view of Terry's right to live.
- [34:46]
George Felos
For me, on a personal level, one of the greatest challenges in this case was trying to remain open hearted and not hating the people who I was dealing with. Because it is, I'll be honest, religious fundamentalism gives me the willies. It's. It's very difficult for me to relate to a mindset that relegates to hell everyone else who doesn't express God, their belief in God or relationship with spirit in, in a different way.
- [35:23]
Lynn Vincent
Philo said the people trying to keep Terry alive were motivated by politics and not the law, by religion and not medical science. He presented himself as the arbiter of science and reason, all the while remaining silent on his own motivation. That rapturous and all consuming spiritual conversion he experienced in 1986, that mystical fire that led to his calling to liberate people from life. A calling he realized during a supernatural conversation he didn't actually hear. With a woman who couldn't actually speak. Next time on Lawless.
- [36:12]
Bobby Schindler
I clearly knew there was something wrong my dad. I mean, his face was white as a ghost, and clearly he was upset. And I said, are we breaking for lunch, I believe. And he said, no, it's finished.
- [36:25]
Lynn Vincent
Lawless is a production of World Radio. Our executive producer and sound engineer is Paul Butler. Our production assistant is Lillian Hammond. Music by Will Sheehan. Lawless is reported in. Written by Anna Johansen Brown, Bonnie Pritchett, and me, Lynn Vincent. For a list of additional audio sources in this episode, visit lawlesspodcast.com thank you for join.