Lawless Encore: Episode 7, The Trouble with Uncle Fred

Summary

The World and Everything In It: Lawless Encore Episode 7 – "The Trouble with Uncle Fred"

Introduction

In Lawless Encore: Episode 7, "The Trouble with Uncle Fred," WORLD Radio delves deep into the complex and emotionally charged Terri Schiavo case. Hosted by Lynn Vincent, this episode meticulously unpacks the legal battles, personal testimonies, and pivotal moments that defined one of America's most controversial right-to-die cases. Through detailed storytelling and expert analysis, Vincent provides listeners with an intricate understanding of the events that unfolded and the key players involved.

---

Background of the Schiavo Case

The episode opens by setting the stage on March 25, 2005, highlighting Terri Schiavo’s dire medical condition and the intense media scrutiny surrounding her case. Terri had been in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) since her brain injury in 1990, leading to a protracted legal battle over her care and the removal of her feeding tube.

Key Players Introduced:

• Rocky Rodriguez (Timestamp [00:31]): Governor Jeb Bush’s chief counsel, who becomes a focal point during a critical press conference at the Florida State Capitol. Vincent describes Rodriguez's anxiety and unpreparedness in addressing the media, stating, “For her, it was sheer panic” ([01:37]).
• Michael Schiavo: Terri’s husband, whose motives and decisions are scrutinized throughout the episode.
• Bob and Mary Schindler: Terri’s parents, fiercely opposing Michael’s efforts to remove Terri’s feeding tube.

---

Press Conference and Legal Maneuvers

Governor Bush's involvement in the Schiavo case intensified in 2003 when he filed a friend of the court brief supporting the Schindlers. By 2005, with Terri’s condition deteriorating, Bush seeks a “last ditch plan to save her.” During a press conference, Rodriguez cites the Florida Statutes, suggesting that the Department of Children and Family Services (DCF) could intervene ([01:46]).

Notable Quote:

“And so I probably was way too candid. And I said, well, based on, and I cited the Florida statute, DCF could take protective custody of Ms. Schiavo.” — Rocky Rodriguez ([01:57])

However, an official from DCF swiftly denies any immediate plans to intervene, triggering a cascade of official actions despite initial denials ([02:10]).

---

Unveiling Uncle Fred’s Story

Central to this episode is the narrative surrounding Uncle Fred, a figure introduced by Michael Schiavo to bolster his case that Terri had previously expressed a desire not to live in her current condition. Uncle Fred’s portrayal serves as a critical piece of hearsay evidence:

• Michael Schiavo claims that after the tragic deaths of Uncle Fred’s wife and daughter, he became mentally and physically incapacitated, necessitating Terri’s removal from life support to prevent further decline.

• Bobby Schiavo vehemently disputes this portrayal, calling Michael’s depiction “the shell game” and questioning its authenticity and timing (Timestamp [05:58]).

Notable Quote:

“If anybody knew Terry, they would know that Terry would never, ever make that kind of a statement.” — Bobby Schindler ([10:04])

---

Contradictions and Character Testimonies

As the trial progresses, contradictions emerge regarding Uncle Fred’s actual condition and behavior post-accident:

• Kathy Brown (Uncle Fred’s daughter) provides firsthand testimony, dispelling Michael’s claims by recounting Uncle Fred’s active and vibrant lifestyle post-accident. “There was never a time when my dad gave up. There was nothing odd about him except he was paralyzed on his one side” ([24:36]).

• Pat Anderson, the Schindlers’ attorney, reflects on Richard Pierce’s (Terri’s guardian ad litem) shifting stance toward Michael, revealing deeper layers of legal strategy and personal biases ([27:18]).

Notable Quote:

“I was deathly afraid, since we hadn't discussed in advance what I was supposed to say, but I was trying to follow the Governor's lead, that we were not giving up.” — Rocky Rodriguez ([01:37])

---

Secret Recording and Evidence Revelation

Amidst the legal turmoil, Michael Vitadamo, Suzanne Schindler’s husband, undertakes a clandestine mission to capture evidence that could pivotal the trial's outcome:

• On January 24, 2000, Vitadamo records Terri interacting with her family, directly contradicting claims of her unresponsiveness ([18:12]).

• This video serves as the Schindlers’ "ace in the hole," showcasing Terri’s responsiveness and challenging the PVS diagnosis.

Notable Quote:

“And so I just remember walking past the front counter and just walking into Terry's room, which was pretty close there, and. And then starting to, to record.” — George Felos ([18:32])

---

Trial Proceedings and Shifting Strategies

Judge George Greer presides over the courtroom, where initial testimonies set the tone for the battle over Terri’s fate. Pam Campbell, representing the Schindlers, strategically focuses on Terri's wishes rather than disputing the PVS diagnosis outright. However, the Schindlers anticipate robust cross-examination, only to be met with unexpectedly lenient questioning from Campbell ([29:16]).

Notable Quote:

“Don’t you think he’s been through enough already?” — Pam Campbell ([30:36])

This soft approach leaves the Schindlers disillusioned and questioning their legal representation’s effectiveness, leading them to consider replacing Campbell ([31:10]).

---

Climactic Twists and Upcoming Verdict

As the trial approaches its climax, the Schindlers remain hopeful yet anxious, relying on their newly acquired video evidence. However, unresolved inconsistencies and the introduction of new witnesses poised to sway the trial’s outcome:

• Michael Schiavo experiences immense personal and physical strain, exacerbated by his ulcerative colitis, further complicating his stance and actions ([11:06]).

• The episode hints at unexpected developments that will be explored in the season finale, promising a dramatic conclusion to Terri’s legal saga ([32:00]).

Notable Quote:

“We panicked. He could put her somewhere and never tell us where he put her. She would be dead. I would never know it.” — Mary Schindler ([33:01])

---

Conclusion

In "The Trouble with Uncle Fred," Lawless intricately dissects the multifaceted Terri Schiavo case, highlighting the intricate web of legal maneuvering, personal vendettas, and ethical dilemmas. By weaving together testimonies, expert opinions, and pivotal moments, Lynn Vincent provides listeners with a comprehensive and compelling narrative that underscores the profound human and legal complexities inherent in life-and-death decisions.

Teaser for Next Episode: The episode concludes by teasing the season finale, where Judge Greer’s ruling will be revealed, potentially altering the course of the Schiavo case irreversibly.

---

Additional Information

Lawless is a production of WORLD Radio, supported by listener contributions and grounded in faith-based journalism. The episode credits acknowledge the contributions of executive producer Paul Butler, sound engineer Paul Butler, production assistant Lillian Hammond, and music by Will Sheehan. The team behind Lawless includes Anna Johansen Brown, Bonnie Pritchett, and host Lynn Vincent, ensuring high-quality reporting and storytelling.

For more details and additional audio sources referenced in this episode, listeners are encouraged to visit lawlesspodcast.com.

Transcript

[Lynn Vincent]

It's March 25, 2005, and Terri Schiavo is on her eighth day with no food or water at the Florida State Capitol in Tallahassee, the press room is packed. Governor Jeb Bush has called a press conference, and attorney Rocky Rodriguez is about to be thrust into the harsh glare of the media spotlight.

[Rocky Rodriguez]

There must have been easily 20, 30 reporters, if I recall, both print and media.

[Lynn Vincent]

That's Rodriguez. Her name is Raquel, but she goes by Rocky. Rodriguez is Bush's chief counsel.

[Rocky Rodriguez]

The Governor says, come down to the press room. And so it was on the first floor of the Capitol, what we call plaza level, off a hallway outside of the governor's office suite.

[Lynn Vincent]

Governor Bush got involved in the Schiavo case in 2003. He filed a friend of the court brief supporting the Schindlers. Now, a week into Terry's slow motion dehydration, he's looking for a last ditch plan to save her. Rodriguez has been researching the Florida Statutes. At the press conference, she stands behind the Governor holding copies of those laws.

[Rocky Rodriguez]

The Governor made a statement and he responded to some questions. And I think there was a direct question to him, well, what can you do? And then he said, well, I'm going to let my counsel answer that.

[Lynn Vincent]

Rodriguez has never spoken at a press conference before, and she wasn't prepared to speak at this one. For her, it was sheer panic.

[Rocky Rodriguez]

I was deathly afraid, since we hadn't discussed in advance what I was supposed to say, but I was trying to follow the Governor's lead, that we were not giving up.

[Lynn Vincent]

There is one strategy Rodriguez has found in the Florida Statutes. It involves the Department of Children and Family Services, dcf.

[Rocky Rodriguez]

And so I probably was way too candid. And I said, well, based on, and I cited the Florida statute, DCF could take protective custody of Ms. Schiavo.

[Lynn Vincent]

An official from DCF quickly steps up and says that they don't have any plans to do that at the moment. But it's too late. The word is out and official wheels are set in motion. From world radio and the creative team that brings you the world and everything in it, this is Lawless.

[Unknown Singer]

I see a wicked man walking down a broken road I see a ransomed man in the storm Trying not to fall for gold Devil's at the door trying to take control but the Lord's gonna scatter his bones.

[Lynn Vincent]

I'm New York Times best selling author and World magazine senior writer, Lynn Vincent. Lawless is a new true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life, that not every crime is against the law. In season one of Lawless, we're investigating the Terri Schiavo story, a case that, in 2005, shock the world. This is episode seven, the Trouble with Uncle Fred. The VHS tape starts with an electric blue screen, purple and green. Static flickers across it. Then it cuts abruptly to a shaky home video shot. It's a tiny white room lit with a warm yellow lamp. In the center of the frame is Terri Schiavo. She's sitting in a wheelchair with her head tilted back and to the side, mouth ajar, eyes open, blinking. One arm is curled up by her chest. When Mary Schindler enters the frame, Terry's face opens up with a big smile.

[Mary Schindler]

Mommy loves you. Mommy loves you.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bob and Mary Schindler keep talking to Terry, coaxing her to respond, touching her shoulder, ruffling her hair. Sometimes it seems to work.

[Mary Schindler]

Oh, you're turning over here to see Mommy.

[Lynn Vincent]

Hi.

[Bobby Schindler]

Hey, look at your mommy.

[Mary Schindler]

There you go.

[Bobby Schindler]

You're looking at your mommy.

[Lynn Vincent]

Sometimes it doesn't.

[Mary Schindler]

Teresa.

[Bobby Schindler]

That's right.

[Pat Anderson]

This can't be you.

[Lynn Vincent]

But any parent would recognize the language that mary uses. It's January 2000, and the Schindlers are headed for a showdown, a trial that will determine whether their little girl lives or dies. At the center of the fight between Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers, Terri's wishes. Did she want to live or did she want to die? And before her 1990 brain injury, had she made those wishes known? To prove that she had, Michael had made the Schindlers an offer. If they would withdraw their objection to removing Terry's feeding tube, he would donate the net proceeds of the money in her medical trust fund to a charity of his choice. Michael says his offer proves that he was only doing what Terry wanted, that he's concerned only with her wishes and not with her money. Bobby Schindler calls the offer the shell game.

[Bobby Schindler]

I mean, it was disingenuous because he knew my parents were gonna say no to that. I mean, come on, they've been fighting for. At that point, that's been. The whole battle is to try to stop Terry from being killed by Michael. So now, all of a sudden, because Michael's offering to donate the money to charity, my parents gonna say, okay, go ahead and starve Terry. I mean, it doesn't make sense. My dad was like, no, why would we agree to this?

[Lynn Vincent]

Neither did Michael's offer sway Terry's guardian ad litem, Richard Pierce. He saw Michael's conflicts of interest as extending beyond money to his fiance. Jodi Santones and his quick action to end Terry's life after the malpractice trial. As for Michael's giving up the money after legal and medical bills, would there really be that much left? The Schindlers declined Michael's offer, which he made in 1998. That same year, Michael's attorney, George Filos, hired his first medical expert in the case, Dr. James Barnhill, a neurologist. Barnhill is a familiar figure in Florida right to die cases, including Florida's controlling right to die case, that of Estelle Browning. You remember Browning, George Felos first right to die case. Barnhill appeared as an expert witness for Filos during that case in the late 1980s. By the time Schiavo v. Schindler went to court, Barnhill had testified in half a dozen similar trials. Barnhill first examines Terry in March 1998 and then again for 10 minutes in January of 2000, on the eve of the feeding tube trial. In Barnhill's opinion, Terry is in pbs, a persistent vegetative state. But the doctor tries something different with Terry, something he hadn't tried with Estelle Browning.

[Unknown Singer]

Come to me, my melon. Dr. Barnhill testified that he sang Come to me, my melancholy baby, and Terry had no reaction, and therefore she was in pbs.

[Lynn Vincent]

That's attorney Pat Anderson, who would join the case in 2001. Anderson says it wasn't unusual for Terri not to react when she was with strangers. She sometimes didn't seem responsive at all. But with her family, it was a different story, because, man, when her mother.

[Unknown Singer]

Came in the room, it was like turning a light switch on, or else I shall.

[Lynn Vincent]

In the early 2000s, Filos would team up with Barnhill for Holland America cruises to places like the Bahamas and Panama Canal. During these sailings, the pair lectured to groups on topics like removing or refusing unwanted medical treatment and managing inertia and resistance among healthcare professionals. Even today, Pat Anderson has a name for these floating seminars. Death cruises. Remember, Philos had had Pierce booted off the Schiavo case because he was biased against the removal of feeding tubes. But given those cruises, it seems safe to say that Barnhill had a bias of his own. Now Barnhill is set to testify in Terry's case, too, the case that's supposed to settle once and for all what Terry really wanted.

[George Felos]

She said to her husband, I don't want to be kept alive artificially.

[Lynn Vincent]

That's George Felos.

[Bobby Schindler]

Please promise me that you won't keep.

[George Felos]

Me alive that way.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bob Schindler thinks that's a lie.

[Bobby Schindler]

If Anybody knew Terry, they would know that Terry would never, ever make that kind of a statement. And the only people that heard that Terry make these alleged wishes were the husband.

[Lynn Vincent]

The Schindler's good friend Fran Kastler says Michael never knew what Terry wanted. She remembers going to a concert on the beach with him and the Schindlers back before everything imploded.

[Unknown Singer]

Michael was living with Bob and Mary. Wasn't he at the house? And we were talking about Terry, and he said, how should I know what her last wishes were? And, you know, I just looked at him, I went, well, you're married to her. And he said, I don't know. So he actually told me, I do not know. But later on, he knew exactly what her wishes were, allegedly.

[Lynn Vincent]

Soon a judge will decide, did Terry want to die? Even before the trial starts, everyone is exhausted, traumatized. Even Michael, as well as the Schindlers. He's been diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, and the stress makes it worse. Michael writes in his book that he knew removing Terry's feeding tube was the right thing to do. But that didn't make it any easier letting her go. The tension is getting to Bob Schindler, too. His blood pressure is off the charts. Mary is sick with worry. It seems insane to her that a judge she's never met before could decide the fate of her little girl. Everyone's nervous. Still, the Schindlers also believe they have an ace in the hole, a piece of evidence that will crush Michael's case and save Terry. Remember during those few years leading up to Michael's petition, there had been that legal lull, and the Schindlers had had a little space to breathe. And in that time, their family grew by one. I'm Lynn.

[Bobby Schindler]

I'm Michael.

[Lynn Vincent]

Nice to meet you, Michael. This is Lillian. Hi, Lillian.

[Pat Anderson]

Hi.

[George Felos]

Nice to meet you.

[Lynn Vincent]

This is Michael Vitadamo. He first met Terri's sister, Suzanne Schindler, in the early 90s. The sound queen. And I met Vita Damo in St. Pete in the fall of 2021. He's 59, but looks 49. He's wearing a tank top and wireless headphones hung around his neck. A pair of sunglasses sits on the brim of his snapback hat. You can tell Vitadamo's been throwing barbells around in the gym.

[George Felos]

Weights, some cardio. You know, nothing crazy, because I'm almost the oldest person in the gym.

[Lynn Vincent]

So the gym is where Vitadamo met Suzanne schindler. That was 1995. Suzanne's gym membership was Going up. And Vitadamo gallantly volunteered to pay for it. They hit it off and would later marry. Vitadamo hadn't known Terri before her brain injury. He didn't have a before and after to compare. He just met the woman in the nursing home.

[George Felos]

I remember being a little nervous, you know, going into her room, and I just remember thinking, wow, she's way more alive than, you know what I'm saying. Her actions, her reactions were very purposeful and they were very appropriate. So in other words, tell you something funny, you laugh. Tell you something sad, you cry. Bob would always tell her jokes all the time, lame jokes, and she would laugh. Mary would come and say, mommy's here, Terry. And she'd either cry or she'd laugh. So, you know, when I witnessed that for the first time, I was definitely taken aback. You know, it's. It's a powerful thing.

[Lynn Vincent]

In fact, Vitadamo's belief that Terry was responsive was so powerful that just a day or two before the trial, he volunteers for, well, something of a secret mission. January 24, 2000. The day of the trial dawns, cloudy and still. It's 8:30am When Michael Schiavo arrives at the courthouse. It's been almost 10 years since Terry suffered her brain injury. The front page of the St. Pete Times reports a fiery pile up in Kansas City and gives the score of the Tampa Bay Bucs game. They lost, but nobody is reporting on the Schiavo case. That Inherit the Wind courtroom is cavernous with its high ceilings and large windows, and it feels almost empty. But there are a few spectators, mostly on Michael's side of the room.

[Mary Schindler]

His side hit quite a bit. Mostly his friends, all his brothers were there. He had four of them and his sister in law.

[Lynn Vincent]

Michael sees his attorney George Felos at the petitioner's table, but he goes over to talk with his father instead. His brothers are there, along with Jodi Sentones's mother. Jody, however, is not in the courtroom. In his 2005 book, The Truth, Michael writes, we'd agreed that as much as I would have liked Jody's support in the courtroom, it would be better if she still remember. Michael had proposed to Jody in 1994. For the past few years, they'd been living together in a house Michael bought with his malpractice trial award. But Michael was still married to Terry and seeking her death, and some people had made an issue of that. Back in the courtroom, two reporters appear, one for Bay News 9, the local ABC affiliate, and a woman named Anita Kumar, a writer for the St. Pete Times. Bobby had faxed a letter to the press telling them about the case. He thought public outcry might help. All rise. At the appointed time, Judge George Greer enters the courtroom. And the first thing he does is ask all testifying witnesses to. To leave. Everyone except Michael, Mary and Bob, the litigants in the case.

[Bobby Schindler]

I was waiting to testify, so I was not allowed into the courtroom.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bobby and Suzanne wait in a room next door. In a room next to them, witnesses for the Schiavo side. The Schindlers are tense, but feeling confident.

[Bobby Schindler]

My father and I, I remember speaking, I think it was probably the night or two nights before the case. And we were nervous, but we felt pretty good about the fact that there was a family that was willing and wanting to bring Terry home and care for her. The fact that Michael, these wishes, so called wishes of Terri surfaced almost 10 years after her collapse. He was living with and immediately wanting to marry another woman. All this close to a million dollars that Michael was going to inherit upon if he was successful in killing my sister. So we felt pretty good that the judge, when he saw all this evidence, there wouldn't be a judge in the world that would rule in Michael's favor.

[Lynn Vincent]

Add to that their ace in the hole, that new evidence they'd collected. Well, that Suzanne Schindler's husband, Michael Vitadamo, collected on that secret mission.

[George Felos]

And I just remember somebody coming up with the idea that, you know, we need to record Terry.

[Lynn Vincent]

A couple of days before the trial, Vitadamo secretly brings a camera to Palm Garden and makes a tape of Terry interacting with her family secretly. Because Michael had strict rules about recording Terry.

[George Felos]

We went in, I had a friend of mine, I borrowed his camera and we went in and recorded her. I did it without hesitation. I remember walking in there and I had to sneak this big. You know, the cameras weren't little like they are now, that it's literally this. But I still have it. It's this big.

[Lynn Vincent]

It's like a mailbox.

[George Felos]

Yeah, it's ridiculous. So I just remember walking past the front counter and just walking into Terry's room, which was pretty close there, and. And then starting to, to record. Yeah, to me it was, it wasn't that it wasn't a big deal to go in there and videotape her. Like there wasn't, you know, and I didn't have that fear like something's gonna go wrong, but.

[Lynn Vincent]

But Mary was worried, what if Michael found out? Vitadamo's secret taping operation goes off without a hitch. When The Schindler see the tape. They're elated. Surely the court can't ignore video evidence of her responsiveness. The trial begins and George Filos is up first. We would have liked to have played trial testimony audio for you, but the county only holds onto it for 20 years. So what you'll hear ahead is voice actors. But the testimony is verbatim. In his opening statement, Philos goes way back to the beginning. He recounts Terri's childhood, her struggles with weight, her brain injury, her years in hospitals and rehab centers, and the bleak diagnoses. He highlights the main point of Michael's that Terry would never have wanted to live in her current condition. Michael says he listened to Filos opening statement with tears. After Philos's statement, it's Pam Campbell's turn. Remember, Campbell is Bob and Mary's attorney. You will hear a lot of medical testimony concerning the persistent vegetative state that Teresa Schiavo currently exists in. We do not doubt she's in a permanent vegetative state. This stipulation that Terry is in a persistent vegetative state is a legal strategy. Rather than dispute everything Michael is alleging, Campbell chooses to focus on the issue of Terri's wishes. But the precise state of her cognition will will later prove critical. Here Campbell stipulates or concedes that Terry is in pbs. That's important because if she isn't, if she's a sentient human being who responds to her environment, her feeding tube can't be removed. As we mentioned in episode 5.5, the emerging science around the minimally conscious state described Terry perfectly. A patient who is sometimes responsive and sometimes reflexive. In future appeals, the Schindlers will fight to have judges acknowledge this. But Campbell's stipulation in the original trial will seem to work against them. After the opening statements, Michael is the first witness called. His palms are sweaty as he heads up to take the. To win this case, Philos has to prove that Michael knows what Terry would want in this situation. She didn't leave a written directive, but did she tell people close to her what she would want? Michael, of course, says yes. And it isn't long before he gets to Uncle Fred. You remember Uncle Fred. You met him at Terry and Michael's 1984 wedding. The handsome guy walking through the receiving line, lightly assisted by a cane. What you may not know is that Uncle Fred endured unspeakable tragedy. His wife Joan and 16 year old daughter Gail were killed at a railroad crossing, hit broadside by a train. Against the advice of attorneys, Fred Sued the railroad and won. He didn't get any money, though. Instead, he forced the railroad to install better signals at the dangerous crossing where his wife and daughter were killed. The Uncle Fred story first entered the legal record in 1993 when the Schindlers challenged Michael's guardianship. During that case, Michael claimed that Terry told him Uncle Fred was so distraught over the loss of his wife and daughter that he got drunk, got in his car and ran it into a tree. Now Michael repeats that story for Judge George Greer.

[Fred Schindler]

When he came out of his coma, he was pretty much severely handicapped, had a lot of impediments, had to live with his mother.

[Lynn Vincent]

These weren't just Terry's recollections of her uncle. Michael testifies that he met Uncle Fred and observed these infirmities himself.

[Fred Schindler]

Her uncle had paralyzed. I believe his right arm was paralyzed. I believe he had a severe limp. He used a cane. He had slurred speech difficulty. He had to sit for long periods. He could not get up and move around a lot. Difficulty in thought processes, I believe. But he could not process his thoughts quick enough with his answers.

[Lynn Vincent]

Michael says Terry was worried about what would happen to Uncle Fred if her grandmother died.

[Fred Schindler]

Because he lived with a grandmother and she basically helped take care of him.

[Lynn Vincent]

Watching Michael's testimony, Bob and Mary get more and more frustrated. Michael's story is A plus B equals C. Fred's wife and daughter die. He's grieving and wrecks his car, and he's disabled. But Joan and Gail were killed in 1969. Fred's accident was 11 years later, in 1980. Not only that, he bounced back quickly.

[Kathy Brown]

He couldn't speak for the first two years we had him back, speaking perfect English.

[Lynn Vincent]

That's Fred's daughter, Kathy Brown.

[Kathy Brown]

There was never a time when my dad gave up. There was never a time when he was an injured, broke man. There was nothing odd about him except he was paralyzed on his one side. But he compensated for that, obviously, as people do, by he didn't need a cane. But other than that, he was fine. He was thriving until the day he died.

[Lynn Vincent]

Driving to work every day, driving to the gym every day, driving to pick up his grandkids at school when Kathy needed help. By the mid-1980s, at the time, Michael says Terry told him her uncle was profoundly disabled. Handsome Fred was actually a ladies man. And the story about having to live with his mother, actually she moved in with him so he could take care of her. Look at them. Last year I went down to Dothan, Alabama, where Mary now lives On a farm with her brother Mike and sister in law CB I asked Mary about Michael's story. He said that Uncle Fred would come to parties at your house and just.

[Mary Schindler]

Sit there and play darts and drink.

[Lynn Vincent]

And play darts and drink. That's what he did.

[Mary Schindler]

That's what he did. He started taking girls out. He went to the gym all the time. He went to work every single day, came over my house every weekend, sometimes during the week with girls. It didn't seem like anything changed with him. The only thing he did, yeah, he limped. That's all.

[Lynn Vincent]

Michael said he was at those family gatherings often. So was Terry. And that raises a question. Is it reasonable that Terry would hang out at parties with her, dart playing, gym going Casanova uncle between 1984 and 1986, then tell Michael in 1986 or 87 that she would never want to live that way? I also spoke about Uncle Fred with Richard Pierce. Remember, Pierce was Terry's guardian ad litem in the case before Judge Greer discharged him. When Michael filed his initial petition in 1988, his uncle Fred story was the only one he offered Pierce as evidence that Terry had expressed a wish not to be kept alive. Pierce at the time called the Uncle Fred story hearsay, known only to Michael. But years later, Pierce would change his mind about Michael entirely. Now, you mentioned just now that we talked before about the fact that you ultimately changed your mind about Michael. Tell me that story.

[Pat Anderson]

Well, it took a while, but with all the legal controversy and various lawyers were involved in the case and eventually the three quarters of a million dollars that she had at one point became zero dollars. And, and Michael kept going, and he kept going on his own dime, as far as I know. And he was just as relentless as always with his belief that he was the proper decision maker, that she should be taken off life support. And so I finally had to admit to myself that I was wrong about his motivations in this case.

[Lynn Vincent]

I talked with Pierce about Uncle Fred. The story about the uncle was that he was, he had to be under his mother's care, that he was disabled, that he couldn't walk, that he was severely brain injured. Then I told Pierce about the wedding video, about Uncle Fred strolling through the receiving line laughing and chatting. Pierce seemed taken aback.

[Pat Anderson]

I'm kind of surprised that what you're telling me at this point. It disappoints me if what you're saying is true and somebody lied about that uncle and about Terry's statement. That's a, that's a big disappointment to me. Again, not sure changes legal outcome, but, you know, I don't know what to think. I mean, she's. She's long gone now, and God rest her soul, but that was kind of a big deal.

[Lynn Vincent]

Back in the courtroom, it's Pam Campbell's turn to cross examine Michael. The Schindlers have great hopes for this moment.

[Bobby Schindler]

And I remember we anticipated Michael's testimony because there were so many questions that needed to be asked. And we felt confident after our attorney would ask these questions that would clearly show Michael's intent and what he was doing, what he was trying to do.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bobby thought Michael's testimony and cross examination would take all day because of all the questions Campbell would ask him. For example, how did Michael explain the fact that he said he cradled Terry in his arms, but paramedics found her face down? Why did he promise the malpractice jury he'd take care of Terry for the rest of his life, then try to end her life a few months after he got the money? And why hadn't Michael come forward earlier with Terry's alleged wishes? The Schindlers think these and other questions will take quite a while. But it's not even lunchtime. When Bob and Mary come out of.

[Bobby Schindler]

The courtroom, I clearly knew there was something wrong. My dad. I mean, his face was white as a ghost, and clearly he was upset. And I said. I said, are we breaking for lunch, I believe. And he said, no, it's finished. And I said, what do you mean, it's finished? And he said, and. And all I remember him saying something along the lines, she didn't ask him anything. She, meaning our attorney, Pamela Campbell. I guess what my dad was trying to say is the questions that we had thought and hoped that she was going to ask Michael were never asked.

[Lynn Vincent]

The Schindlers are shocked.

[Mary Schindler]

It was a very soft questioning period. She never. I thought I needed a pit bull to go after him, but he was very easy, Michael. Very easy.

[Lynn Vincent]

Even Michael is surprised at how the questioning went. In his book, he writes, I remember thinking Pam Campbell seemed way too nice to be in this line of work. Everyone heads for lunch. The Schindlers at one one end of the lunchroom and Michael and his attorneys at the other. Bob Schindler asks Campbell why she wasn't tougher on Michael. Why didn't she ask harder questions, get the answers they needed?

[Bobby Schindler]

And I'll never forget Pam Campbell turned to us and said, don't you think he's been through enough already? He, me and Michael Shiloh thought I could not believe she said that. And I remember, however, after that, when I spoke to my dad privately, we talked about removing her as our attorney.

[Lynn Vincent]

To this point in the trial, Michael has scant evidence to support his claim that Terry wouldn't have wanted to live. What he does have is hearsay, just as Pierce noted in his report. And the Schindlers, they still have their secret weapon to present that video vitadamo shot of Terry interacting with family. But George Philos is nobody's fool. The Uncle Fred story hadn't convinced Pierce back when he first drew up his report. So Philos needs more evidence to support Michael's case. It arrives just in time. Two new witnesses whose testimony will change the course of the entire trial and of Terri Schiavo's life. Next time on Lawless. Join us for the season finale of Lawless. Season one, the Terri Schiavo Story. In a special extended episode, Judge Greer rules. And the Schindlers think they've lost everything.

[Mary Schindler]

And we panicked. He could put her somewhere and never tell us where he put her. She would be dead. I would never know it.

[Lynn Vincent]

Then an unlikely character triggers a twist in the case that no one saw coming. Lawless is a production of World Radio. Our executive producer and sound engineer is Paul Butler. Our production assistant is Lillian Hammond. Music by Will Sheehan. Lawless is reported and written by Anna Johansen Brown, Bonnie Pritchett and and me, Lynn Vincent. For a list of additional audio sources in this episode, visit lawlesspodcast.com thank you for joining us.