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Lynn Vincent
In the second week of March 2005, the whole country is talking about Terri Schiavo. Okay, Should Terri Schiavo live or die? It is one of the most bitter and controversial legal battles in the country. At the center of the storm, Florida Hospice of the Sun Coast. The street outside vibrates with prayer and protests. Let's say lift. Let's say lift. Local police are barricading every entrance, blocking protesters from entering hospice grounds. And Terry is entering her second week with no food or water. Her lips were all cracked because imagine, no water, no hydration, and her eyes were dashing back and forth. That's pro life activist Janet Marana. By this time, Morena and a coalition of pro life and direct action protesters had discussed a plan to rescue Terry. A kind of smash and grab operation. Without the smash. We just get all the ones who want to rescue Terry. We have a plan. We go in the middle of the night, we just march in there and she's not on any machinery. We just put her on a stretcher and we have a jet waiting, a private jet that will get a donor to donate and we'll fly her to a nearby island like Bermuda or Nassau. Marana wasn't the only one planning a rescue. Beau Gright, the former Green Beret commando and leader of far right militia movement, decided that he would come in on his own and try to rescue Terri Schiavo. Terry's parents issue a statement saying they don't want any more civil disobedience. But there's a third rescue attempt in the works. This time it's not citizens up in arms. It's an official government action. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement dispatches a car and a doctor. They're going to take Terri into protective custody. That means the state police and the local cops guarding Terry are headed for a showdown from world radio and the creative team that brings you the world and everything in it. This is Lawless. I see a wicked man walking down a broken road I see ransomed man in the stone Trying not to fall for gold Devil's at the door trying to take control but the Lord's gonna scatter his bones. I'm New York Times best selling author and World magazine senior writer, Lynn Vincent. Lawless is a new true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life. That not every crime is against the law. Welcome to a special double episode of the Terri Schiavo Story, our final episode in season one. This is episode eight, a little slice of hell. The first day of the 2000 feeding tube trial. Just two local reporters showed up to cover the case. No big deal. But on day two, it's a whole different ball game. That stately, cavernous courtroom now bustles with journalists, cameras and microphones. This is a case with legs. It's going places. And editors and producers want their reporters to be here when it does. But for Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers, they'd rather be anywhere but here. They're exhausted, stressed, terrified, and angry. Terry's former guardian ad litem, Richard Pierce, may have described the whole situation best. You know, this is a case that nobody in the world should ever want to be involved in. I mean, this is. This is just a terrible, terrible situation. You know, everybody went through little slice of hell there. So far, Michael's evidence that Terry wouldn't want to live in her current condition is pretty sparse. If he wants to convince Judge Greer, he needs more proof and he needs to flesh out another argument. How did Terry's faith affect her end of life wishes? The Schindlers come from a big, boisterous Catholic family. Terry, Bobby and Suzanne all attended a Catholic parochial school. But Michael's family says Terri wasn't the faithful Catholic her parents claimed. Michael's brother, Scott Schiavo. She graduated, went to Catholic schools her whole life, but she wasn't a full fledged churchgoer like they're making her sound. It's interesting, though. On the last day of her normal life, Terry's life before her brain injury, she went to a 5pm Mass with her parents. It was an ordinary Friday afternoon, two days before Lent. Bob and Mary say Terri is a good Catholic girl and they're adamant that she would never have wanted her feeding tube removed because it would contradict Catholic teaching. If you understand the teachings of the church, then you would know that to remove Terry's feeding tube, which delivered her food and hydration, which was the only thing sustaining her life, that is against the teachings of the church. And so the Catholic Church will never support dehydrating Terri to death. Right? Enter Father Gerard Murphy, a chaplain for the Catholic Medical Association. When Bob Schindler sees him sitting outside the courtroom, he thinks Murphy is there to support his family. Bob is wrong. The day before the trial started, two more Schindlers had come to town. Michael's brother Scott and his sister in law Joan, down from Philadelphia. Not just to support Michael to testify. Remember, Michael has already testified. Now it's his brother's turn. Michael's petition claims Terry would not have wanted to live in an irreversible condition. Scott is here to give evidence to support that. Do you swear that the evidence you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So he'll be God, yes. Scott takes a seat in the witness chair. This is a bench trial and there is no jury. Judge George Greer will weigh the evidence and render a verdict. As George Felos questions Scott Schiavo, he tells this story. It was 1988. The Schiavo's grandmother had severe heart disease and her body was failing. Hospital staff put her on a ventilator. After only two days, she died. Michael and Terri weren't there, but they came up to Philly for the funeral. Afterward, the whole family went out to lunch at a fancy place, a country club. I mean, I could sit here and tell you that at my grandmother's funeral, who had signed dnr, and the people at the hospital neglected to follow it. They resuscitated her, put her on a machine and left her there to die. That's Scott telling the story later on TV. And when @ her funeral, we were all, after the funeral, we were out at lunch, we were all talking. I can still see Terry sitting right next to me, to my left, looking me right in the eyes and say, not me. I never want to live like that. Don't ever let that. I never want that. Don't ever let them do that to me. And I can still see her look at me straight in the eyes. After Philos wraps up, the Schindler's attorney, Pam Campbell, takes her turn on cross examination. She asked Scott whether he had ever told Michael about Terry's statement. No, Scott says, not in all the years since Terry's brain injury. No, Scott says. After Scott's testimony, Judge Greer recesses the court for lunch. Suzanne Schindler's fiance, Michael Vitadamo, says he'll never forget what happened next. He told me about it when I interviewed him in St. Pete last year. We were going outside and Suzanne was right in front of me, and we opened the door and Michael Schiava was facing her and went, I gotcha. Vitadamo shows me the hand motion Michael made at the time, pointing at Suzanne, his hand curled into the shape of a gun. I make my hand a gun too. Okay, like, yeah, like, got you. What do you think he meant by that? I, I, I've never spoken him, so I don't know. I, I think it just like, gloating. Yes. Gloating? Yes, for sure. Next, Philos calls Dr. James Barnhill to the stand. Barnhill is Filos expert Medical witness. He's the veteran of half a dozen right to die cases, including the granddaddy of all such cases in Florida, the Estelle Browning case. Filos first foray into Florida's right to die or self determination movement. During extremely lengthy testimony, Barnhill delivers his medical assessment of Terry. Not only is she in pbs, Barnhill says she's terminal, since without the feeding tube, she'd die. Yes, without food and water, Terri Schiavo will die. But wouldn't we all? Barnhill's statement seems quite a semantic leap, but he's able to make that leap because of the lawyer standing in front of him. Even up until 1999, food and hydration in Florida was considered ordinary humane care. But Philos has been working with the state legislature to redefine food and water delivered through a tube. Now, in 2000, it's classified as a medical procedure as artificial life support. Just in time for the Schiavo trial, Barnhill's testimony continues. He displays CAT scans, comparing his own brain with Terry's. He notes the large quantity of spinal fluid in Terry's skull as compared with the healthy tissue in his own. Barnhill says Terry's chances of regaining brain function are zero. Philos asks him, what will happen to Terry if her feeding tube is removed? What will her death be like? Barnhill replies, I hesitate to say it is a peaceful death, but I will say it is pretty unremarkable. Next, Philos questions Barnhill about Terry's apparent responsiveness. All just reflexes, Barnhill says. When she moans, it just shows that her vocal cords are intact. When she smiles, just muscles shifting in her face. And what about the laughing, crying, turning her head towards sounds? Barnhill says he knows he sounds like a broken record, but those are all just reflexes, too, mediated by the brainstem. Then Philos asks, what if these reflexes happen at appropriate times, say, in response to a loved one? People see what they want to see, Barnhill says. Wishful thinking. Now it's time for the next witness. Father Gerard Murphy takes the stand. He's the Catholic priest Bob Schindler thought was there to teach Judge Greer what Catholics think about euthanasia. Bob is shocked to learn that Father Murphy is Michael's witness. The Schindlers will argue that Terry never would have expressed the wish to die because the Catholic Church teaches the sanctity of human life. Dan lynch is a Catholic and former probate judge of 25 years. Here, he explains Catholic doctrine on feeding tubes. We are all human beings, gifts of God that have to be Cared for and protected until God calls us. Nobody is a vegetable. And even if you are what they might call a vegetable, you cannot be killed. The Holy Father said artificial hydration and nutrition, that's food and water, must be provided. It's morally obligatory to provide that to a person who is sick or disabled. But back in the courtroom, here comes Father Murphy to say otherwise. Murphy introduces the idea of ordinary versus extraordinary means. He says Catholics are morally bound to respect and care for life, but aren't required to go to extraordinary lengths to do so, especially if the burdens of the treatment outweigh the benefits. Does the Catholic Church require someone to have all medical treatments and procedures to keep them alive? Murphy says no. In fact, Murphy believes the technology keeping Terry alive has become an obstacle for nature taking its course. In the courtroom gallery, Terri Schiavo's sister Suzanne is sitting with her fiance, Michael Vitadamo. Listening to Father Murphy's testimony. She feels confused. Like what? And was. Like what? What just happened? That kind of thing. And then angry, you know, angry that of course, and what ensued after that was just the non support we got from the entire Catholic community in St. Pete. So this is really sad. As the trial continues, all those reporters are still watching and taking notes. And as the facts get out, the Schiavo case begins to percolate up in local news. Some people in the Tampa Bay area were aware that there was a woman in our local area where the husband and family were arguing over whether or not she should be taken off of life support. That's radio host Kerry Kirkland. When the Schiavo case starts making news, she's only 24 years old. One of the big misconceptions about the story all the way throughout is that the news was reporting that she was on lockdown life support, which obviously gives the visualization that she's on some sort of breathing apparatus or something. And when I and the other news people and radio personalities in town realize that she's actually on a feeding tube, which means that she would have to starve to death, it does change how people perceive the story. Kirkland's been working non stop in radio since she was 18. And now she's reached her first career milestone. She finally has her own call in show Tampa Bay's mix 100.7. Okay, everyone, let's get started. Let's hear it for the five time national cheerleading champion. I know a girl on mix at night. Yeah, crank up the radio. She does a show called into the Night. My show is called into the Night with Kerry Kirkland on mix 107 and 10 Tampa. And it was a radio station for soccer moms. And, you know, my show was, you know, light and fluffy and fun. But Kirkland has other ambitions. She has a friend in talk radio, a quirky guy who works out of a studio just down the hall. His name is Glenn Beck. It's still the number one or number two story about the end times. You know, the name, name, big national talk show, ultra conservative, firebrand politics. But before all that, Beck hosted a more lighthearted show in the Tampa market. You know, I'm only doing this because it's just driving my producers nuts. As the Schiavo case revved up in the local news, reporters started taking sides. Beck was no exception, but you might be surprised whose side he landed on. Beck stood staunchly with Michael Schiavo. And honestly, I'm not saying let's gang up on Michael, because I felt last week I kind of ganged up on the family. Carrie Kirkland likes Beck's show and thinks she'd like to get into talk radio, too. She has no idea that she'll get her first chance with the Terri Schiavo story. Back in the courtroom, Michael's sister in law, Joan Schiavo, takes stand as Filos questions her. Joan describes how close she and Terri had become. They talked every week, sometimes more than once. Joan recalls many conversations she had with Terry related to artificial life support. In one, friends of Joan's had a sick baby who was surviving only on a ventilator. Finally, the baby's parents decided to remove the ventilator. Joan says Terri supported that decision. In fact, she says they probably talked about it a dozen times. Next, Joan tells Philos she and Terry had another conversation about life support. It was after they'd watched a movie about a diver who broke his neck. The diver was brain dead and being kept alive artificially. After the movie, Joan recalls Terry saying, I would never put my husband through anything like that. If anything like that ever happened to me, I would hope to God they would pull the plug because I would never want to live like that. Joan goes on to say she and Terry even discussed living wills, advance directives, putting it in writing that she, Terri, would never want any kind of artificial life support. On cross examination, Pam Campbell asks Joan the same question she asked Scott, had she ever told Michael about these conversations. According to Joan, after all, these two women, both in their early 20s at the time, had more than a dozen of these talks on three different topics. The baby, the diver, movie, and living wills. This raises A question for me. A question never asked in the feeding tube trial. By all accounts, the Schiavo's were close, all the brothers and their wives. And Joan says she was one of Terry's best friends. How is it then, that over all the years, Michael kept Terry alive? Joan never mentioned to him that he was causing her dear friend to suffer against her will. As I mentioned, Scott Shiavo never said anything either. When pressed, he says it's because Michael was so upset early on, so determined to help Terry get better. Scott says he didn't think Michael could handle hearing it. But what about 1993 or 1995, when Michael denied Terry antibiotics? Michael said then he was trying to make a decision on what Terry would want. Why didn't Scott and Joan mention Terry's wishes then? In fact, neither Scott nor Joan ever mention these wishes to anyone until George Felos. Finally, it's the Schindler's turn on the stand. Mary is up first. The trial just didn't. Oh, it was terrible. I just didn't even want to go. Every day. I just didn't even want to go near it. Campbell asks Mary about a typical day with Terri. Mary describes visiting with her daughter, the nursing home schedule, how Terri laughs and cries and follows her mom with her eyes. Campbell then asks Mary, did you bring anything else with you today to demonstrate a typical visit with Terry? And that's when Mary first brings up the ace in the hole, that video Michael Vitadamo made. Campbell turns and addresses Judge George Greer. Your Honor, I would like to play this video for the court. Filos objects. He himself has only just seen the video that morning, he says, and he hasn't had a chance to show it to his expert witnesses. What these little bits of videotape do are misleading. Now, if you say, terry, open your eyes, nothing may happen. If you just have a little snippet, a video of the 31st time you say that, where somebody says, terry, open your eyes, and she opens her eyes, somebody will say, oh, my God, look at that. She's responding to commands. It's obvious to everyone that she's responsive, that she's in there. But they don't show you the first 30 times in which they give Terry the command. And there's absolutely nothing. Philos also notes that there seems to be a break or a gap in the tape. That means it might not even be authentic. Furthermore, how is the court supposed to interpret this video? Philos asks. Judge Greer isn't a neurologist after all. At best, the whole thing is a waste of time. Campbell fights back. It's an amateur video, she says, and she's not aware of any gaps in it. And Philos has already seen it. She's already met her obligation to provide it to opposing counsel. In the end, Greer doesn't let the video into evidence, at least not for now. When Mary's testimony continues, Campbell asks her why she had the video of Terry made. Because I wanted people to see, mary says. I wanted the court to see what I see. I think she understands. I think she knows I'm there. I just want her to live. But when George Philos cross examines Mary, she gets confused and upset. Philos did ask me questions about her wishes, yes. Yeah, he did not, Pam. But he did. No, I said I never heard her, you know, express her wishes to me. About that. I just thought that he couldn't wait to. All I kept thinking was he couldn't wait to take her feeding tube away. After Mary, there's a surprise witness, Michael Vitadamo. Judge Greer allows Campbell to call Vitadamo to the stand in order to authenticate his video. Filos grills him. What was the purpose of the tape? Did he know there was a trial going on? How were Bob and Mary involved? The questions and answers are staccato as Filos and Vitodamo spar back and forth. At the end of this exchange, Filo still isn't satisfied. He renews his objection to Campbell showing the tape and judge Greer. He says he doesn't feel good about seeing the tape, doesn't know what a brief clip from Terry's day is going to show him. And yet Greer decides he would be remiss if he doesn't see the tape. And so Campbell shows it. It's less than three minutes long. What? Baby, it's okay. It's okay. Mommy loves you. As the tape rolls, Vitadamo watches Greer. I remember Greer not even wanting to look at the videotape monitors. He wouldn't even look. He wouldn't even turn his head to the directions of the monitors. You know, his eyesight is super bad. That could be why he didn't look at the video monitors. I mean, why not even. I mean, he had glasses that he wore for every other occasion. Why wouldn't he have put it on and looked at the monitors then? That's interesting. So here you are sitting in the gallery, observing him, not even looking at the video that you shot. Yeah. What are you thinking? We're doomed. That's what I thought. All told, the trial takes five days. Terry's friends Jackie Rhodes and Diane Meyer testified to Terry's love for life testimony in direct opposition to that of Scott and Joan Schiavo. But Rhodes and Meyer's testimony doesn't seem to land well with Greer. The Schindlers had gone into the courtroom feeling confident. Now, though, they feel frustrated and afraid. They're upset with the things Michael has said. They think Philos has twisted their testimonies. They wish Campbell had called other friends and relatives as witnesses to support their side. Uncle Fred's daughter Kathy, for example. And they're deeply, deeply worried about how Judge Greer is going to rule. February 11, 2000. Three weeks after the end of the trial, Bob Schindler's phone rings. It's attorney Pam Campbell's office. And there's news. Judge George Greer has issued his ruling. We were home, I think, in the condo and we were waiting and then they called us and told us that Pam would like to see us all in her office. Campbell wants the Schindlers to drive all the way downtown to learn the judge's ruling. Mary doesn't like the sound of that at all. It was scaring me. I just had a feeling that if we won, she would be screaming it on the phone to us, you know, get over here right away, we won, we won, we won, you know, something like that. But that isn't what happened. But it turns out that Campbell is still waiting for the ruling. She knows it's in, but she doesn't actually have it yet. So Bob and Mary make the trip downtown in utter silence. Oh, my God, I just had an awful feeling. I don't know, I just did. Campbell's office is in the 100 year old Alexander Building. Building four or five media vans are already parked out front waiting for the Schindlers. And when they arrive, the silence implodes. When we got there, trying to find a place to park because there was a ton of TV cameras and stuff. We got out of the car and they were sticking microphones in our face and shouting, yeah, what do you think about the decision? Are you devastated? Well, we don't know anything about the decision. We didn't say anything. We just kept on walking. Pam Campbell's assistant hurries outside to shepherd the Schindlers through the gauntlet of reporters. She takes them into a ground floor conference room. Bobby is already there, and Suzanne arrives a few minutes later. Then they sit silent and wait for the verdict. We all knew a ruling was coming in. It was life or death. It was the fate of my sister. And I remember when the fax was coming in. I was looking at the fax machine as the ruling was coming in. We're all sitting there watching it, and Pam walked over, and then. I'll never forget. I just. Pam was reading through it, and I think she shook her head and said, it's not good. Judge Greer has ruled in Michael's favor. He's allowing Michael to order Terry dehydrated to death. You know, you're stunned. You just get kicked in the gut and just kind of sitting there in disbelief. Mary starts crying and can't stop. Suddenly, the Schindlers realize they don't have much time left with Terry. They don't know when the tube will be removed, but they think it will be soon. Bob and I figured in a couple days because we knew that Michael wanted to get this over with. We knew that he wanted that money that he got from the trial. Mary is an ordinary suburban mom. She doesn't know anything about the appeals process. I thought, in a couple days, I'm going to lose my daughter, and that's it. You know, it's going to be over. Michael Schiavo first hears the verdict from his fiance's brother, John Sentones. Santones had seen it on the news. Michael immediately calls George Philos for confirmation. Philos has just gotten the facts himself. He tells Michael, we won. When Michael hears those words, he starts running around shouting, we won, we won. We won. For a few minutes, he's excited beyond belief. Then he writes in his book, he suddenly felt the cold chill of a dagger in his heart. That's because, he writes, the decision meant that Terry was going to die. Back at Campbell's office, a dagger pierces Mary's heart, too. And amid her tears, the Schindler family faces a storm of questions. You know, I'm thinking now, what's going to happen? You know, what's Michael going to do? You know, what's Felix going to do? The hardest thing for Bobby and Suzanne is watching their parents anguish, seeing just the pain and heartache they were experiencing, all because they wanted to take care of their daughter. It didn't make sense to me, you know, test your faith. The Schindler family heads back to their condo and starts brainstorming. Maybe there's something they can do, someone else who can help. They agree they're unhappy with Campbell's work on their case, but how can they afford a new attorney? Before the malpractice judgment, they'd wiped out their savings caring for Terry. Then an old friend comes up with a new plan. I remember when we got home, there was a friend of Bobby's there. His name was Stephen Meyer. They've been friends for a long time. He says, what we're going to do, he says, let's open up a foundation. He said, and we're going to start raising money. He's going on and on and all this. The Schindlers stare at Steven. Open a foundation? That's a crazy idea. How would that even work? And he said, yes, we're going to open a foundation in her name. And he says, you and your family are going to run it. After the devastating news at Campbell's office, the idea is the Schindler's first glimmer of hope. But first they need to find a new lawyer. The Schindlers track down a man willing to take the case pro bono, Joe Magri, a lawyer specializing in the appeals process. Magri starts filing a flurry of motions and legal maneuvers and eventually secures a hearing with a three judge panel. The panel won't rehear the case, but the judges will assess Greer's ruling. While Magri is pursuing legal strategies, the Schindlers are also hunting for new evidence. The day after Greer's ruling, they get another lifeline. Three doctors volunteer to visit Teri. They spend an hour with her, assessing her condition. Then they file affidavits outlining what they saw. One of those doctors is Jay Carpenter. He runs a medical clinic and is board certified in internal medicine. In his affidavit, Dr. Carpenter describes his visit with Terry. At one point, Mary Schindler brings out a stuffed animal. Terry looks at it, then back up at Mary. Dr. Carpenter writes that Terry is clearly responding, not making random movements. When I used to come in to the door, I used to stand by the door and I'd say, terry, Terry. And she turned her head towards where I was standing and. And she. And you could see her smile. Without fail, Terry would respond to my mom. Another doctor, James Avery, also files an affidavit supporting the Schindlers. He testifies to Terry's responsiveness. But when I talk to him now, he tells a different story. Terry's mom was sort of playing with a teddy bear and saying, watch Terry follow the teddy bear. Watch her following a teddy bear. And a couple of things I learned. One is that it wasn't really clear how intact she was. One of the doctors who was with me, he felt that maybe she was following it. At times I was not convinced, but it maybe seemed like it. That's what I wrote in the Affidavit, but I know my impressions were very clear back then that, wow, this is severe brain damage. In fact, Avery told me he wrote that affidavit, as he did because, well, he was running a pro life organization, and he said what he was expected to say. And I'm not sure she's responding, but she might be. I remember being surprised by the severity. And also, and this is where I think I didn't really see much of this in the press. I don't think that the family, particularly the mom, and this is not uncommon in hospice, really seem to be in some significant denial about the actual situation here. But Avery does notice that Terry never drools. That means she must be swallowing her own saliva, and that means she can swallow. Meanwhile, Mary is living in constant fear. She doesn't know what will happen next, what Michael might do. One day, three weeks after Greer's death order, her fear turns to terror. Mary goes to Palm Garden nursing home to visit Terry, but Terry is gone. We. We panicked. We didn't know what Michael did because we knew that he could do anything he wanted. He could put her somewhere and never tell us where he put her. She would be dead. I would never know it. Mary is terrified. She calls Bob and Bobby. Together. They go on a crusade for answers. We made phone calls, we called our lawyer, and we finally got information that Michael moved her to hospital during the night. Hospice. Not a rehab center or a nursing home. Michael Schiavo moved Terri to Florida Hospice of the Sun Coast. It's a facility that's worked closely with the Right to Die movement and where Terry's attorney, George Felos, had until very recently been chairman of the board. Here's how the move happened. It was March 3, 2000, less than three weeks after Greer's ruling to remove Terry's feeding tube. Dr. Vic Gambone, a doctor hired by Michael Schiavo, telephones Palm Garden. As Gambon speaks, a staff member scribbles down what he says. I have a copy of Gambon's telephone order. Quote, terminal diagnosis is vegetative. State have hospice pick up patient. In 2000, Florida law required that hospice patients be certified as terminally ill by two physicians. But Terry was moved to hospice on Gambone's order alone. State law also required that hospice patients have less than six months to live. But at this point, Terry still has decades to live. None of her doctors has ever pronounced her terminal. But by signing her death order, Judge Greer has. In November 2000, those three doctors testify. Before that three judge panel. Two months later, in January 2001, the panel rules they uphold Greer's decision. I get my hopes up. I, you know, I would like, think about, oh, my gosh, this is going to work. The judge is going to see this. Well, went to court. Slapped it right down. As the Shia Vo case snowballs, more and more media outlets are picking up the story. And it's not just local coverage anymore. Good evening, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The Schiavo case is now on national platforms with big personalities. Nancy Grace, prosecutor turned broadcast journalist, sits down with Bob Schindler, Joe Magri, and George Felos. You'll hear a little VHS static in this interview. Well, George Felos, I've got to ask you a tough question. Your client stands to gain quite a bit of money, and I understand he's engaged to someone else. Well, the judge heard a week of testimony and believed that my client loves and cares for his wife as he does. He has offered on many occasions to the Schindler parents to donate this money to charity if they withdraw their opposition to the removal of the feeding tube. Michael had made that offer at least once, though not many times, as Filos just said. Remember when Michael sent that offer back in 1998, the Schindlers were confused. So now all of a sudden, because Michael's offering to donate the money to charity, my parents can say, okay, go ahead and starve Terry. I mean, it's just. It doesn't make sense. And we were kind of scratching our heads, like, why would. We didn't understand why he was doing that. Now, though, three years later, Bobby understands perfectly. I think Fellows was doing a good job of anticipating how the media might report this. And I'll have to give him credit because he played it beautifully. He really did. He knew that this was going to come up. So his response to the media was, well, Michael offered to donate the money to charity, and the parents refused, and he left it at that. Back on Court tv, Nancy Grace asks Joe Magri a question. Why doesn't Michael just give custody of Terry to her parents? Well, I think that's a good question, Nancy. I think that the parents ought to have the ability to decide things here. You know, some of the broad statements that have been made by Mr. Filos deserve a little look at. For instance, the statement that Terry repeatedly indicated that she wanted to not live in this condition never came up from her husband during a trial in which he testified trying to abduct back in 1992. It came up here belatedly in 1998. If he allowed the parents to make these decisions, he would have to divorce her. And then he wouldn't be able to obtain this money. Florida Hospice of the Suncoast is a low sprawling facility on a little street in Pinellas Park, Florida. It's next door to an elementary school. Anna and I visited the property in May 2021. Lots of green shady walkways and stone benches dot the grounds. A fountain gurgles out front. It's peaceful, serene. But that's not how Bobby Schindler feels when he walks inside. I gotta tell you, walking into this hospice you had, it was a real presence of, you know, I know you hate to use the word evil, but it did. It had like a presence of evil when I would walk in there and just the people. Once Terry is admitted to hospice, Philos takes action to restrict access to her. He and Michael claim the Schindlers are practically leading tours through Terry's room. He asks Greer to put a stop to it, to limit the number of people who could come and visit. So Greer tells the Schindlers to draw up a list of names. Michael gets veto power. He can cross off anyone he wants. Michael quickly crosses off Bobby and Suzanne. As far as the rest of the Schindlers, I mean, if you look at her sister and brother, you know, before the media showed up, I think I can count on one hand in the last 10 years that Bobby ever visited Terry. Suzanne, you know, I don't think she's ever visited Terry. That wasn't true. But it sounds damning when Michael says it on tv. It was all about isolating. It was all about control. Because they had to do everything they could to not allow any information about Terry's condition, any videos or any pictures to get out to the public. The one person that could hurt Michael's case, the one person that could disprove this, was Terry. Meanwhile, Joe Magri keeps pushing for something, anything. He asks for a rehearing. Denied. He asks Greer to recuse himself from the case. Denied. The Schindler's are in anguish. They feel tossed back and forth like a beach ball among strangers. But they have found a glimmer of hope. Two new attorneys who don't fit the profile you might expect. Hello. Hello. Come on in. This is my office. We can camp out in here. This is Anderson Broderson, Attorneys at Law. Their offices are located on a Sandy street corner three blocks from the waterfront in St. Pete Beach. Inside, Tom Broderson, Esquire. Sits at a massive dark wood desk and begins spooning homemade gazpacho into a paper cup. Would you like to try some? It's got green peppers, cucumbers, celery, all pureed. Broderson has wispy white hair in a laid back manner, wears a Hawaiian shirt and shorts. His wife, Pat Anderson, sits across the room on a purple couch. Anderson is a trial and appellate lawyer. She's wearing a beige linen dress and sturdy sandals. For 23 years, Anderson worked as a media attorney for a string of newspapers that the New York Times owned in Florida. She and her law partner defended an African American run weekly newspaper against the the sheriff's department, defended reporters against corrupt police, defended a public school teacher who was wrongfully fired. They won every case. For years, the Schiavo case has been framed as fire breathing right wingers against the forces of law and reason. But both Anderson and Broderson are liberal Democrats. In fact, once during our interview I mentioned Donald Trump. Broderson looked at me like I'd stepped on a cow pie and traipsed it into his office. In the spring of 2001, a friend mentions Schiavo versus Schindler to Anderson. I had a friend who was an attorney who was handling a legal matter for Suzanne, Terri's sister, and she asked me if I'd like to get involved in the Schiavo case, and I didn't really know too much about it. What Anderson learned set her teeth on edge. Just the fact that Terry hadn't had independent representation at the 2000 trial is appalling to her. For Anderson, the case isn't about politics or religion or the right to life. It's about due process and disability rights, plain and simple. She takes the case. Anderson immediately begins papering the courts with a blizzard of motions. Each is shot down one right after the other. Finally, Anderson and Magri appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. But In April of 2001, the court refuses to hear the case. The Florida Supreme Court, as every other court in this country has said and ruled that the artificial provision of nutrition and hydration is medical treatment that patients have a right to refuse. Then the Schindler's go to the court of last resort. Last spring, her husband, Michael Schiavo, won the right to remove his wife's feeding tube, saying she would not want to live in this condition. But after many legal appeals by Terry's parents reaching as far as the U.S. supreme Court, Terry's life still hangs in limbo in Pinellas County. Chris O'Connell, Bay News 9 the Supreme Court of the United States. It's the only thing left for the Schindlers to do. Their last appeal. If it fails, Greer's order takes effect and Terry's feeding tube gets pulled. That year, a conservative majority dominated the bench. But on April 23, 2014, 2001, the Schindlers reach the end of the line. Justice Anthony Kennedy refuses to Hear the case. April 24, 2001. The day after Justice Kennedy declines the case. Outside the hospice, a small group of protesters is praying and chanting slogans. Inside, Terry lies in her tiny room with a single bed. By now, Michael has hired off duty local police to guard the door to her room. One of them is standing there in the hallway. Inside the room, a doctor approaches Terry's bed, bends down beside her and disconnects her feeding tube. A swift and simple act. At that moment, a countdown begins. Doctors expect Terry to die within a week to 10 days. Terri's sister Suzanne can't believe what's happening. When Judge Greer ruled in Michael's favor in 2000, she'd been sure it was a mistake. Somehow, someone would make it right. Now, a year later, Suzanne is desperate. That's when her friend Jana Carpenter has an idea. Jana is a nurse married to Jay Carpenter, that doctor who'd advocated for Terri before a three judge panel. In Jana's view, Greer has ordered a sentient woman put to death. And she's hopping mad. She was like, you know, we're going to feed her, take this baby food in there, and either you feed her or you ask the nurse to feed her. Because there's nowhere in the legal paperwork that says that Terry can't be fed by mouth. Suzanne is up for the challenge. She takes the baby food from Jana, drives to the hospice, gets past the police officer guarding Terry's door. And the nurses saw me with baby food and they all freaked out. And, you know, they weren't going to let me do that. And I kind of felt like, why not? As Carpenter said, nothing in Judge Greer's order prohibited feeding Terri by mouth. But the hospice nurses are outraged. I remember one of the nurses said, well, she may choke to death. Wait, what? It was okay for Terri to slowly dehydrate to death, but not okay for her to quickly choke to death. The absurdity causes Suzanne to snap. Tensions were high at the time, and my emotions were high. But, you know, I remember saying, you know, are you all your mothers? I mean, what about your children? Are you going to let your children starve to death like that? Bob and Mary Schindler are also at the hospice. They're watching, helpless as their daughter begins to slip away. Bob's phone rings. It's a local TV reporter, Chris O'Connell. So Chris O'Connell had called to ask my dad for an interview. And he was one of the few reporters that we felt was giving us a pretty fair, objective reporting. But Bob says no, he's wiped out. Completely defeated. There's a McDonald's around the corner from the hospice. Bobby decides to take his dad there for a break. My dad and I having a coffee, I'm like, you know, dad, Chris has been pretty good to us. We're going to Pass Bay News 9. Why don't you stop and talk to him for a few minutes? And so my dad said, okay. It seems like a minor decision, Bob saying yes when he wanted to say no. But sometimes it's the smallest decisions that make the biggest difference. Bob and Bobby hop in the car and drive over to the TV station. Bobby's leaning against his car watching his dad do the interview when the station manager walks up. His name is Tim Boyles. He's sitting next to me, goes, hey, Bobby, did you hear that interview last night? I'm like, what interview is it? Battlebots on this is better. That particular night, I was literally gonna go on, on the air with, you know, call in and tell me about your first kiss. That was the kind of thing Kerry Kirkland did on her Call in show. But she did want to break into talk radio. So at the last minute, she decides to cover something more serious, the Terri Schiavo story. And we went on the air and we just opened up the phone lines to, you know, the public and said, you know, what do you think should happen? Kerry thinks it's going to be a normal night on the job. It isn't. And we were on the air with another call, and, you know, Chris all of a sudden got frantic and waved his hands around and said, take line four, take line four. And we took it. I'm sort of personal with this case because I was the first girl that Michael Schiavo dated after his wife had his heart attack. That's Cindy Brashurst, the woman Michael Schiavo was dating back in 1992, even as he told that malpractice jury that he believed in his wedding vows and planned to take care of Terry for the rest of his. And he used to go visit her at the nursing home while we were dating. He said immediately, as soon as he got near the door, her head was already looking at the door because she would recognize his voice, right? And she would start crying when he got ready to leave. By this time, Cindy is married and her last name is Shook. She'd been listening to the program, to the other callers siding with Michael, and she just couldn't take it anymore. She had to call in and he was like, she has ruined years of my life and she has taken all this time and obsessed my whole life with this, and this is all her fault. How long did you date him? I dated him for a year. Cindy's call is a bombshell. Immediately, Bob Schindler speed dials attorney Pat Anderson, who quickly sends a private investigator to Cindy's door. There more revelations. Cindy tells the investigator that Michael told her he and Terry had never discussed end of life issues. Cindy would later say that the investigator misunderstood what she said. Still, Pat Anderson springs into action. I felt like it was just an absolute all of a sudden, like whirlwind to try to use the new information that she had immediately, because now time is of the essence. Anderson appeals to Judge Greer, Argues that Cindy's information is new evidence. Says Terry's feeding tube must be reinserted pending an investigation. But Greer denies the motion. He says the time for new evidence has come and gone. That's when yet another lawyer enters the scene. Attorney Jim Eckert. At the time, Eckert was the most successful litigator in Pinellas County. When he gets the call from Anderson, he drives 16 hours from his second home up in Washington D.C. i told Pat we had to get a new cause of action so as to get it away from Judge Greer. Eckert files suit in the court of Judge Frank Cassada, outside Greer's jurisdiction. The claim that Michael had intentionally inflicted emotional distress on teachers. On the afternoon of April 26, Eckert and Anderson enter Quesada's courtroom. And then Pat Anderson said, are you gonna make the argument in this case? I said, I didn't drive 16 hours for nothing. Eckert argues for an injunction against Greer's feeding tube order. I don't remember a word of what I said. But I did call Michael Schiavo a murderer because there was no reason to kill killer. None. The Schindlers aren't in the courtroom when Judge Cassata rules. Oh, God. I remember exactly. We were in my parents living room last night. A Pinellas judge issued a temporary injunction ordering Schiavo to resume the use of a feeding tube for his wife, Terry. I remember it was my mom, my dad, Suzanne, my niece. We were just jumping up and down hugging each other. We were in total disbelief. I mean, just a few hours earlier, Terry was being starved and dehydrated to death with no indication that anything was going to stop it. This came completely out of the blue. The new evidence. When the ruling came in, we were just overjoyed. After 60 hours without food or water, Terry gets her feeding tube back. Media reaction is swift. A local radio host gets Michael on the air. There is no word this afternoon if the attorney for Michael Schiavo will be appealing the latest court decision in the case of his wife. Last night, a Pinellas judge issued a temporary injunction ordering Schiavo to resume the use of a feeding tube for his wife, Terry. This in light of comments from Shia Vo's ex girlfriend that Shia Vo's lying when he insisted Terry would not want to remain on life support. Schiavo tells MJ Kelly on our sister station 93.3flz, it's not so. I haven't seen or heard from her in nine years. Okay, so when you knew her, it was Cindy Brasher. Right. And you're claiming that all of her comments that she's made are false. Right. Meantime, ex girlfriend Cindy Shook Brasher is supposed to be questioned by its attorneys under oath next week. And that isn't the end of the story. In fact, far from it. When Cindy Shook calls Kerry Kirkland show, it kicks off a whole new fight. America and the world has only seen the beginning of Schiavo vs Schindler. The case would become the longest running right to die battle in American history. Join us for season two of the Terri Schiavo Story. In season two, the Schindler family digs in. We're gonna fight this thing. Talk to my family up there. They're upset, but we're not gonna stop. Michael Schiavo begins to defend himself publicly. Mr. Schiavo made a resolute promise to his wife. And despite the threats of protests and picketing, he's resolute to carry out his wife's wishes. And he's not going to be intimidated. And the fight over Terry's life climbs toward the summit of American government. The U.S. house Committee on Government Reform has filed with the United States Supreme Court a request for an injunction. As Terry is dragged back and forth between life and death, her story opens a fault line that divides America. Lawless is a production of World Radio. Our executive producer and sound engineer is Paul Butler. Our production assistant is Lillian Hammond. Music by Will Sheehan. Lawless is reported and written by Anna Johansen Brown, Bonnie Pritchett and me Lynn Vincent. For a list of additional audio sources in this episode, visit lawlesspodcast.com thank you for join.