Lawless Encore: Season 2, Episode 1 - Are you purple?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The World and Everything In It
Episode: Lawless Encore: Season 2, Episode 1 - Are you purple?
Release Date: May 3, 2025

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of Season 2 of Lawless Encore, titled "Are you purple?", WORLD Radio delves deeper into the harrowing and highly publicized Terri Schiavo case. Hosted by Lynn Vincent, a New York Times bestselling author and World magazine executive editor, and Anna Johansen Brown, a reporter and features editor for World Radio, the episode navigates the complex legal, ethical, and emotional battles surrounding Terri Schiavo's life and death.

Background: The Terri Schiavo Case

Terri Schiavo, a woman from Florida, was at the center of a prolonged legal battle over her right to die. After suffering a cardiac arrest in 1990, Terri remained in a persistent vegetative state for years, sustained only by a feeding tube. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, sought to remove the feeding tube, believing Terri would not want to live in such a condition, while her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, fought to keep her alive, believing she was aware and capable of recovery.

Season Overview: Lawless Season 2

Lawless, a true crime podcast under The World and Everything In It, examines unsettling aspects of American life where not all crimes are clear-cut legal violations. Season 2 continues the in-depth investigation of the Terri Schiavo story, aiming to uncover new evidence and perspectives that have emerged over the years.

Episode Focus: "Are you purple?"

The episode centers around the pivotal moments leading up to Terri Schiavo's death, focusing on the legal maneuvers, public opinion, and breakthrough in communication that reignited hope for Terri's consciousness.

Key Events Discussed

1. Removal and Reinstatement of the Feeding Tube

• Lynn Vincent opens with a vivid description of the physical deterioration Terri would experience without a feeding tube:

  "In as little as three days, stage two kicks in. Your kidneys start holding onto water instead of sending it to your bladder. Organ failure begins, starting with the kidneys, then spreading. Your urine turns dark and your eyes sink in."
  [00:38]

• After Michael Schiavo won the legal right to remove Terri's feeding tube, a coalition of disability rights groups, pro-life activists, and government officials intervened to keep her alive.

2. Role of Michael Schiavo and Public Perception

• Michael Schiavo is portrayed as a complex figure, balancing his role as Terri's husband with personal turmoil, including an affair and a new family:

  "He's been living with his girlfriend Jodi Santone, since 1995 in the House they built together using money Michael was awarded in Terry's 1993 malpractice."
  [26:10]

• The public is divided, with some condemning the Schindlers' appeals to the government as overreaching, while others criticize Michael for his actions and motives.

3. Involvement of Glenn Beck

• Glenn Beck, initially neutral, becomes a pivotal figure when he pressures Carrie Kirkland to release a critical tape:

  "I'm like, I know it's the right thing. I have a house to pay for and a baby, and I have to make money."
  [09:07]

• Beck's insistence leads to the airing of a tape that throws Michael Schiavo's intentions into question, escalating the legal battle.

4. Testimonies and Depositions

• Cindy Shook, Michael Schiavo's former girlfriend, testifies about her fears of Michael's aggressive behavior, adding complexity to the case:

  "I'm afraid of Michael, that if I did this, if I came forward and testified, I feared not only for my life, but for my kid's life."
  [13:37]

• Don Shook, Cindy's husband, corroborates these fears, detailing unsettling phone calls he received, presumably from Michael.

• Depositions become battlegrounds, with attorney George Filos aggressively questioning witnesses, leading to tense exchanges:

  "He's lucky I didn't get up and knock him down. I didn't like his philosophy of life."
  [16:37]

5. Legal Maneuvers by Both Sides

• Pat Anderson and Tom Broderson, both proponents of Terri's life, engage in relentless legal strategies against Michael Schiavo's legal team.

• Multiple delays are orchestrated by continuously filing motions and appeals, prolonging the legal proceedings:

  "Now it's bumped back to October. This dance repeats multiple times over the next four years."
  [23:08]

6. Introduction of Dr. William Hamisfahr

• Dr. William Hamisfahr, a neurologist with controversial methods, enters the scene claiming Terri could recover:

  "She is just severely disabled and certainly able to undergo rehabilitation with prison methods and techniques."
  [22:25]

• His unorthodox methods and questionable credentials add another layer of complexity, with some alleging fraudulent claims:

  "Hamisfar's nomination came from a congressman who was not part of that group."
  [22:25]

7. Breakthrough in Communication: "Are you purple?"

• Tom Broderson, an attorney with an engineering background, makes a breakthrough in communicating with Terri through voice prompts:

  "I told her, Terry, are you 10ft tall? And she went, uh, uh. ... I asked her, are you purple? And she whispered the word no as clearly as you or I could."
  [35:40] - [36:44]

• This moment, symbolized by the question "Are you purple?", signifies Terri's ability to understand and respond, shifting the hopes of the Schindler family.

Notable Insights and Conclusions

• Legal and Ethical Implications: The episode underscores the intricate balance between legal rights and ethical considerations in life-and-death decisions, highlighting how personal biases and public opinion can influence judicial outcomes.

• The Power of Communication: Terri's ability to respond, even minimally, challenges previous assessments of her condition, suggesting that the human spirit and desire to communicate can persist despite severe biological limitations.

• Impact of Media and Public Figures: The involvement of media personalities like Glenn Beck illustrates the profound impact media can have on legal battles, often swaying public perception and adding pressure to the proceedings.

• Personal Turmoil and Advocacy: The Schindler family's unwavering commitment, despite personal animosities and legal hurdles, emphasizes the lengths to which individuals will go to protect loved ones, often at the expense of their own well-being.

Notable Quotes with Speaker Attribution and Timestamps

• Lynn Vincent explaining the physical stages of dehydration:

  "Your kidneys start holding onto water instead of sending it to your bladder. Organ failure begins, starting with the kidneys, then spreading."
  [00:38]

• Anna Johansen Brown reflecting on the personal impact of Terri's case:

  "Every question that Terri's case raises feels relevant, personal."
  [05:39]

• Kerry Kirkland detailing her breakthrough moment:

  "I asked her, are you purple? And she whispered the word no as clearly as you or I could."
  [36:29] - [36:44]

• Pat Anderson expressing frustration with witness cooperation:

  "People are cowards about coming forward and just telling the truth."
  [20:59]

Conclusion

"Are you purple?" serves as a compelling continuation of the Terri Schiavo narrative, weaving together personal testimonies, legal strategies, and breakthrough moments that challenge our understanding of consciousness and the right to die. Through meticulous reporting and evocative storytelling, WORLD Radio's Lawless Encore provides listeners with an in-depth exploration of one of America's most contentious and emotionally charged legal battles.

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For more information and resources related to this episode and others, visit lawlesspodcast.com.

Transcript

[Lynn Vincent]

Here's what would happen if you were dying of thirst. First, your body clings to all moisture. You sweat less and your internal temperature rises. Your blood thickens and becomes sluggish. Your heart beats faster, trying to rush blood through your system so that you can get enough oxygen for your cells. This is stage one in my time of dying.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

I don't want nobody to mourn. Have my loved ones take me home and oh, my dying arm.

[Lynn Vincent]

In as little as three days, stage two kicks in. Your kidneys start holding onto water instead of sending it to your bladder. Organ failure begins, starting with the kidneys, then spreading. Your urine turns dark and your eyes sink in. You feel dizzy and confused. Your head pounds and your skin begins to shrivel. This is Terri schiavo's condition on March 25, 2005, as she lies dying at Florida Hospice of the Sun Coast.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Well, well, well so I can die easy. Well, well, well so I can die easy. Well, well, well so I can die easy. Well, well, well Jesus gonna make.

[Lynn Vincent]

From World Radio and the creative team that brings you the world and everything in it, this is Lawless.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

I see a wicked man walking down a broken road. I see ransomed man in the storm Trying not to fall for gold Devil's at the door trying to take control.

[Kerry Kirkland]

But the Lord's gonna scatter his bones.

[Lynn Vincent]

I'm New York Times best selling author and World magazine executive editor, Lynn Vincent.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

And I'm Anna Johansen Brown. I'm a reporter and features editor for World Radio. I've been part of the Lawless team behind the scenes since the beginning. Now joining Lynn behind the mic. Lawless is a true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life, that not every crime is against the law.

[Lynn Vincent]

In season two, we're back to finish our investigation of the Terri Schiavo story.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

This is episode one, are you purple?

[Kerry Kirkland]

Good morning.

[Michael Schiavo]

It is 5:55 at 104.7 WRBQ. I'm Kerry Kirkland. Our top story, protesters are getting desperate and the politics of life and death continue.

[Lynn Vincent]

Terry's husband, Michael Scheibo, has won his legal fight to remove her feeding tube and Terry has been without food or water for seven days. But a coalition of disability rights groups, pro life activists and government officials has been working to save her. Florida Governor Jeb Bush has intervened and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement is en route to take custody of Terri well.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Some say Terri Schiavo has been in a vegetative state for 14 years, being kept alive only by a feeding tube.

[Lynn Vincent]

While others say she's well aware of.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

What'S going on around her. Since 1990, Terri Schiavo has been in this condition, left severely brain damaged after a heart attack. It wasn't a heart attack. It was cardiac arrest. And there's actually a big difference. A heart attack is what happens when an artery to the heart becomes blocked. Cardiac arrest is when the heart stops pumping blood. A doctor had suggested that Terry suffered secretly from bulimia and a chemical imbalance led to cardiac arrest. The evidence was slim, but nobody had a better explanation. Now, 15 years later, in 2005, it seems the entire country is engaged in a televised death watch. Some firmly support Michael Schiavo. They condemn the Schindler's appeals to the government to save their daughter. They seem to love pulling in the federal government whenever they can get an issue that they can grab their hands around, but then constantly say, hey, the.

[Lynn Vincent]

Federal government is not supposed to be involved.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

This is social dilemma. Others despise Michael and support the Schindlers. A mother's worst nightmare is to see one of her children die.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I just wanted to say I can.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

See a husband can make decisions for his wife, but he is an adulterer and he has a girlfriend and two kids. And I think she should have a lawyer. She has no living will.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I'm a Democrat, but that isn't right.

[Lynn Vincent]

Meanwhile, the Florida Department of Children and families has dispatched Dr. William Cheshire to examine Terry. Cheshire is a board certified Mayo Clinic neurologist. He's tasked with finding out once and for all if Terry is in what's called a persistent vegetative state, a kind of waking coma. By now, dozens of medical experts have filed affidavits saying she isn't. Could Terry be in what is known as a minimally conscious state instead? Or is she a house plant, as Michael Schiavo's lawyer, George Filos, has suggested? Whatever the answer, the case has the whole world debating the medical ethics of dehydrating a human being to death.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

I was 10 years old when Terri Schiavo died. I remember reading about it in my parents copy of World magazine. I can still picture the COVID because even at that age, Terri's story made an impression. It's strange then to walk the streets of her old stomping grounds, see the place where she lived and died. I'm a young newlywed, just like Terri and Michael were at the start of all this. Every question that Terri's case raises feels relevant, personal. It's the spring of 2021, and Lynn and I are in Pinellas Park. Florida. It's a town a few miles north of St. Petersburg, west of Old Tampa Bay. And it's Florida, so it's hot. We ended season one of Lawless in April 2001 when a phone call to a small local radio show saved Terri Schiavo's life. Two decades later, we're here to meet the host of that radio show, Kerry Kirkland. Kerry is wearing a sunshine yellow dress and greets us with an easy, breezy style.

[Michael Schiavo]

Hey, it's so good to meet you in person.

[Lynn Vincent]

Good to see you.

[Michael Schiavo]

Yeah.

[Lynn Vincent]

You look so cute.

[Michael Schiavo]

And thank you. It's one of my. I've got three of these in different prints. I wear them all the time today.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Carrie works in social media and marketing, but in the early 2000s, she was an up and coming talk radio host in the Tampa area. Lynn and Carrie and I are meeting up with Bobby Schindler, Terry's brother. We head down 102nd Avenue toward Florida Hospice of the Sun Coast. It's the hospice where Terri Schiavo spent the last four. Four years of her life.

[Lynn Vincent]

Let's rewind to April 2001, four years before Terri died. Her feeding tube had been removed for the first time. But a call to a local radio station pulled Terri back from the brink of death. One of Michael Schiavo's former girlfriends called in to Carrie Kirkland's radio show. I'm sort of personal with this case.

[Michael Schiavo]

Because I was the first girl that.

[Lynn Vincent]

Michael Schiavo dated after his wife Terry's.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, heard about the call and sprang into action. The girlfriend's name was Cindy Brasher's shook. What she said on Carrie's show seemed to be new evidence, evidence against Michael, proof he may have lied both about Terri's state of cognition and about her wish to die. Michael said that wasn't true.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I haven't seen or heard from her in nine years. Okay, so when you knew her, it was Cindy Brasher.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Right.

[Kerry Kirkland]

And you're claiming that all of her comments that she's made are false?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Right. Over Michael's objections and those of his attorney, George Filos, a pit bull of a lawyer named Jim Eckert got a judge to order Terri's feeding tube put back in, at least while they investigated what Cindy had said on her radio call in. Cindy's phone call saved Terri's life then. Now it's April 2001, just after Cindy's call, and everybody wants to hear what she has to say, especially Glenn Beck, then a local radio personality who worked down the hall from Kerry Kirkland.

[Michael Schiavo]

So I was sitting in a computer in the control room, and Glenn, you know, found out I had the call in the control room, and he wanted it. And so he came into the mixed control room, and he asks Carrie for.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The tape, but she won't give it to him. For three nights in a row, Beck sits in her control room while she does her show, trying to get Carrie to change her mind.

[Michael Schiavo]

And, you know, you can just hear Glenn Beck's voice as I. You know, Carrie, you've got to do the right thing here. Kerry, you know, this is the right thing.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Kerry says she wanted to give back the tape, but the story had become a political hot potato. And she also didn't want to get fired.

[Michael Schiavo]

You know, And I'm like, I know it's the right thing. I have a house to pay for and a baby, and I have to make money. It's a terrible thing. But you can't always do the right thing.

[Kerry Kirkland]

You know, this is.

[Michael Schiavo]

It was very dramatic. It was. Yeah, very dramatic. And, you know, and then finally, after a few days of that, you know, he just was like, where is the phone call? And I was like, that might be in that computer. And he's like, what happens if you go to the bathroom? And I'm like, well, I don't know. And he's like, what if it just sort of fell into my hands? And I'm like, all right, fine. I went to the bathroom. He wore me down. Yeah, I just couldn't take it anymore. And. And then the next day, he calls me in the morning. I'm sleeping in, of course, because I work till after midnight doing my show, and I wake up to voicemails from Glenn Baxter. Carrie, I've got the call. I'm playing it. I'm going to say your name. Everybody's going to know. And I was like, oh, my gosh. You know?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Oh, my gosh pretty much nails it, because Beck, he comes out swinging.

[Kerry Kirkland]

Harry didn't really mean it to be controversial.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

She was just talking about it.

[Kerry Kirkland]

And several people called in and said how great Michael was. And this woman, the former girlfriend, snapped.

[Lynn Vincent]

Beck is on the Schindler side, but that hasn't always been the case. Up to this point. He sided with Michael, even on the air. Beck felt Michael's decision about whether to remove Terry's feeding tube was a private matter and that the Schindlers and the courts should leave him alone. But when Beck heard Cindy's claims on Kerry's show, he changed his mind.

[Kerry Kirkland]

Let's go back now into the courtroom. He was talking about the wedding vows and how much he did. Love, honor, cherish, sickness, health, richer, poorer, blah, blah. But wait a minute. We forgot, right?

[Lynn Vincent]

We were back at the girlfriend that.

[Kerry Kirkland]

He was dating right around the same time.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

That's weird, don't you think? There's more to the tape.

[Lynn Vincent]

More in a minute. Glenn Beck isn't the only person wondering what else Cindy has to say. The Schindlers are desperate to talk to her directly, to get her to testify in court and confirm what she said on the radio. They think maybe she can even win the case for them, prove Michael isn't fit to be Terri's guardian. At this point, they're looking for any way to keep Terri alive.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

For the Schindlers, the fight for Terri's life has been all consuming ever since 1993. That was when Michael tried to end her life the first time by withholding antibiotics for a year. Urinary tract infection. Now it's about to become all consuming for attorneys Pat Anderson and Tom Broderson. The two lawyers are engaged to be married. They joined the fray that Same April in 2001, nine days after Pat opened her own practice.

[Kerry Kirkland]

Well, it became apparent pretty quickly that there was going to be a whole lot more work involved in this matter than she ever envisioned.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Tom and Pat are in their 70s now. Lynn and I visit their offices in the old business district of St. Pete Beach.

[Lynn Vincent]

Hello. Hi.

[Kerry Kirkland]

Hello. Hello.

[Lynn Vincent]

Good to meet you.

[Kerry Kirkland]

This is Lynn.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

You can see the ocean from their front door. The cracks between paving bricks are filled with sand. Pat and Tom are liberal Democrats. For the next three years, they would face off against Michael's attorneys, George Filos and Deborah Bushnell. When asked about Filos, her old nemesis, Pat's answer is blunt.

[Lynn Vincent]

I don't know and I don't care. It could spontaneously combust for all I care.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Over the time she was involved in the Schiavo case, Pat Anderson's animus toward Filos would only grow.

[Lynn Vincent]

Meanwhile, as the case dragged on, the Schindlers had come to believe that it wasn't bulimia that had caused Terri's mistake. Mysterious middle of the night brain injury back in 1990. Instead, they'd grown suspicious of Michael, that he'd hurt her somehow. Maybe not on purpose, but in one of his rages. By this time, he had displayed his temper with Terry's brother Bobby, her sister Suzanne, and her father Bob. In fact, Michael had been physically aggressive and even violent with every member of the Schindler Family except Mary. And they weren't the only ones afraid of him. In April 2001, after her radio call in, Bobby telephones Cindy Shook and begs her to testify in court. But Cindy says she won't do it.

[Kerry Kirkland]

Well, she also shared with me on the phone that she was scared to death of Michael, that if she did this, if she came forward and testified, she feared not only for her life, but for her kid's life.

[Lynn Vincent]

But the Schindlers do have one more card to play. They hire a private investigator, Kimberly Takis, and send her to Cindy's front door. Takis doesn't record the conversation, but she does take notes. She writes that Cindy displayed fear of Schiavo during the entire conversation. Takis jots a rough quote from Cindy. He was insane and crazy. Later, Cindy would say Takis had misunderstood her and gotten those notes wrong. Wrong. Still, based on the conversation, Pat Anderson subpoenas Cindy and her husband, Don Shook, a former law enforcement officer. She wants them both to sit for depositions and not with her, with the pit bull, Jim Eckert.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

On May 8, 2001, Jim Eckert is fresh off a transatlantic.

[Kerry Kirkland]

Pat Anderson picked me up and what happened was I said, what's going on now? Because I've been out of the country. She said, well, you have two depositions tonight. I said, are you crazy? I just flew from Ireland over here.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Anderson says, you still have two depositions.

[Kerry Kirkland]

It was just, I mean, I was working with no sleep and no information and they handed me this little stuff about what Cindy Shook had and I did the deposition.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The depositions begin at 6pm in another tiny sand fringed building just a few blocks from the Gulf of Mexico. It's the office of Don and Cindy shook's attorney, Joe McDermott. In fact, the room is packed with attorneys McDermott, of course, along with Eckert, Filos, Anderson, Joe Magri, and the PI Kim Takis. According to Anderson, there are also reporters waiting outside.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I'm sort of personal with this case.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Because Eckert starts by playing back the tape of Cindy's phone call, the one from Kerry's Report radio show. Eckert asks Cindy some basic establishing questions. Is that Cindy's voice? Yes. Is that the extent of the phone call? Yes. But just as Eckert gets rolling, he gets sidetracked by a snappy little exchange with George Filos. Eckert mentions where Cindy works, which the court reporter types into the Real Time transcript. Eckert then apologizes to Cindy, saying he didn't mean to make her workplace Public and Philos objects. He tells Eckert, if you want to curry favor with the witness, do it outside of the deposition. Eckert shoots back, I'm going to do it right here in your presence, counselor.

[Kerry Kirkland]

He's lucky I didn't get up and knock him down. I didn't like his philosophy of life. I know he was pro death. I treated him professionally, but I didn't like the guy at all.

[Lynn Vincent]

Next, Eckert gets down to business. He asks Cindy about her relationship with Michael Schiavo. She says they started dating In January of 1992, around the same time Michael had teamed up with some high power medical malpractice lawyers to sue Terri's family practice doctor and gynecologist. The claim that Terry had a secret case of bulimia and they should have known about it. The trial was 10 months later, in November, Cindy tells Eckert she and Michael broke up the same day the verdict came in. In December 1992, she started dating Don Shook. Then Eckert asks about Kimberly Takis, the private investigator the Schindlers had hired to talk to Cindy in the first place. Cindy says Takis arrived at her door teary eyed. She claimed to be a friend of the Schindlers. Said they were running out of time. Cindy agreed to talk. Eckert starts going through Takis's notes line by line, asking if each statement is true. And this is when Cindy starts splitting hairs. Takis reported that Cindy called the radio show after she heard other people calling in and basically saying Michael was a saint. In Takis notes, she writes, eventually she said it became too much for her and she just had to call. Is that a fair statement? Eckert asks. No, Cindy says, I didn't feel fed.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Up or that I whatever. That it became too much for me. I just got angry and reacted.

[Lynn Vincent]

That's not Cindy's real voice, but it is a direct quote from the deposition transcript. Voiced by an actor. Eckert reads another he was insane and crazy. Did Cindy say that he wants to know? No, she says. Well, then what did she say?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

That I feel like he's unstable.

[Lynn Vincent]

Question after question, Cindy downplays each reaction an answer.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

But there's one area of Cindy's story that stays the same. She's afraid of Michael. She's worried that if she speaks up, he'll retaliate. She says she has two children to protect. After Cindy and Michael broke up in 1992, she says he stalked her. He got a job at the hospital where she worked. He kept Trying to see her. I had multiple fellow employees that said, there's this guy named Michael Schiavo that keeps coming on the phone floor looking for you. It scared her. She asked hospital management about it, but they said unless she had a restraining order, there wasn't anything they could do. Michael got fired from that job a couple of months later, but Cindy kept seeing him following her in town. I would look up when I was driving, not at my work. I would look up, and he would be behind me in traffic. It went on for months, about 10 times total. Cindy would change lanes, turn onto side streets, try to lose him in traffic, but he kept following. Never all the way to her house, though one time when he was behind me in traffic, he got next to me on a two lane going the same way, and he changed lanes, basically right on top of where I was at. And I had to swerve not to be hit. I had to swerve off the road.

[Lynn Vincent]

Up next in the hot seat, Cindy Shook's husband, Don. He confirms that Cindy was afraid dawn was concerned for her safety, too. But when it's George Philos's turn to ask questions, he gets Don to admit he never saw Michael threaten Cindy. Don also tells Eckert about the phone calls. Weird silent voicemails that went on for minutes. Sometimes they get 10 or 15 of these calls in one day. A couple of times, Don picks up the phone and asks whoever is calling to stop. No one ever replies. But on two calls, Don hears a voice, a woman's voice. She comes into the room on the other end of the line and says, mike. Then the call cuts off. Don believes Mike is Michael Schiavo, still stalking Cindy, though he doesn't have any proof. One time, Don is so fed up, he answers the phone and says, how would you like it if I got a job at the hospital where your wife was like, you got one where my wife is? He's hoping to get a reaction out of the caller. There's no reply. But after that, the calls stop.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

It's late at night by the time the depositions are over. Pat Anderson remembers being disappointed with the results.

[Lynn Vincent]

People are cowards about coming forward and just telling the truth. You know, they're just cowards about it.

[Kerry Kirkland]

They're afraid of reporters.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Anderson says Cindy sneaked out the back door afterwards so the waiting reporters couldn't ID her.

[Lynn Vincent]

About 18 months before that deposition, George Felos had argued in court that Michael's wife, Terri, wanted to die. She was in a waking coma, unresponsive. Philos said and would not have wanted to live that way. The Schindlers pointed out that the evidence was slim and hearsay and came only from Michael's side of the family. To try to break that tie, Terry's brother in law, Michael Vitadamo, sneaked a video camera into a nursing home and shot a contraband video of Terri interacting with her family just before the trial. It didn't help. Probate judge George Greer ruled that Terry had indeed expressed a wish to die. Still, Vitadamo's footage got passed around the media, and a neurologist, Dr. William Hammisfahr, saw it and called Pat Anderson. Hamasvar was in private practice in Clearwater. He had patented a new treatment for stroke victims, a method of vasodilation he said was capable of restoring at least some lost brain function. Hamisfahr tells the Schindlers he thinks he can help Terry. She's just severely disabled and certainly able to undergo rehabilitation with prison methods and techniques.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Hammisfahr makes some pretty big claims, advertising an 80% patient improvement rate on his website. But he's also listed on a medical watchdog site called quackwatch.org, a fact George Filos is quick to point out. Hamasvar's methods are unorthodox, and many of his success stories can't be verified. He also claims to be a Nobel Prize nominee in medicine and physiology, but that's not entirely true. Nominations are only accepted from a small list of approved people, like the Nobel assembly or previous prize winners. Hamas Farr's nomination came from a congressman who was not part of that group. Still, Hamisfar's assertions that Terry could recover bolster the Schindler's hopes.

[Kerry Kirkland]

Once you get over the trauma of a loved one having a severe brain injury like this, you're just hopeful for even small progress. So even if they're even able to communicate on some level, even if that means blinking an eye or lifting a finger, that's significant to a family. Because at least now you have a level of communication that wasn't there before.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Hamas Farr submits an affidavit testifying that Terry could not be in a persistent vegetative state, not based on what he saw in that video from Michael Vitadamo. Five other doctors submit similar affidavits.

[Lynn Vincent]

By now, there's a new date hanging over Terry's head. August 28, 2001. That's the day Judge Greer has set to remove Terri's feeding tube for a second time. But as Pat Anderson gathers the depositions, from Don and Cindy Shook and files the doctor's affidavits. She gets what she needs to delay that date. Now it's bumped back to October. This dance repeats multiple times over the next four years. Greer sets a date. The Schindlers file a new motion or appeal. The date is postponed. Mary Schindler calls it psychological torture.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

But then Bob and Mary finally get a win when Anderson takes the doctor's affidavits to the second District Court of Appeal. The justices side with the Schindlers. They order that Terry be re examined not just by one doctor, but five. Two from the Schindler's side, two from Michaels, and one appointed by the court. The goal is to see if Terry could improve given fresh treatment and therapy. Bobby is at Pat Anderson's office when the order comes in. He's ecstatic. Finally, a chance to show everyone what they've been saying for years. Terry is aware. She's responding.

[Kerry Kirkland]

You remember that we used to laugh at that? Remember? Yeah, that mommy would go crazy.

[Lynn Vincent]

She'd say, terry, what are you doing? Shared memories. The glue that binds a family together. Just a few months later, Michael Schiavo begins a family of his own. He's been living with his girlfriend Jodi Santone, since 1995 in the House they built together using money Michael was awarded in Terry's 1993 malpractice. In September 2001, Jody gives birth to their first child. Michael's friend Dan Greco is happy for him. It was time for him to move on with his life. I mean, he had devoted and with the help of Jody, with the support of Jody, he loved Terry and he still loved her. Greco is Michael's former boss, and before Philos took the case, he was also Michael's lawyer. But it wasn't really Terry anymore. I mean, there was not much he could say about it.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

As everyone is preparing for this new trial and the doctors testimonies, someone suggests mediation. But by now, neither side has any respect for the other. Here's George Felos. The level of acrimony hurled at Mr. Schiavo by the Schindlers. I mean, he's been called a murderer, a wife abuser. Those are not, that is not conduct and behavior that lead to reconciliation. Both sides are entrenched. Michael wants to end Terry's life. Her parents want to save her. Still, they agree to give it one last try. They set a date. February 13, 2002. Maybe against all odds, they can sit down, talk things over and come to an agreement. Mary sits down with Michael, just the two of them. She says she'd like to get Terry's wheelchair fixed so she can take her outside, and she'd like Terry to get rehabilitation. Michael says she already had rehab and it didn't do any good. She's beyond help. He tells Mary. It's what he's said again and again to the press.

[Lynn Vincent]

Terry's not going to wake up. After doctors after doctors after doctors, after rehab centers have pounded it in my head, nothing they can do for Terry anymore.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Mary sticks to her guns. I want to take her outside. You can. Michael says. No, she tells him. We're never allowed to take her outside. Mary tells Michael she doesn't want Terry's feeding tube removed. He says, I'm just carrying out what Terry wants. By now, he's fed up and angry and showing it. The mediator tries to step in, asks Michael to stay calm, otherwise they'll never get anything settled. But Michael says, we're not going to get anything settled anyway, and storms out.

[Lynn Vincent]

As 2002 rolls on, the Schindlers and their lawyers are getting more and more concerned about Terry's safety. They're worried Michael might do something to hurry her death along even before the trial is settled. Here's Tom Broderson.

[Kerry Kirkland]

We were trying our best as a group to watch her like a hawk, to try to make sure somebody sees Terry every day. Well, that's why I started going to hospice personally. I met her in person for the first time in Life late September 2002.

[Lynn Vincent]

But Broderson had another motive for visiting. He was curious about Terry's true condition. He says he has an engineering background, and he wanted to approach his assessment of Terry with a scientific mind, as an outside observer, not part of the family. He wants to know, can Terry actually respond?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

At first, Broderson visits with Bob and Mary.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I made certain assumptions just for kind of my own operating instructions. Assume that Terry might be afraid of strangers. Assume that Terry might be afraid of men.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

So he hangs back, giving them space.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I'm pretty sure she knew I was there because she seemed a little bit subdued, but clearly she was responding to her mother a lot.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

After a bit, Broderson talks to Terry. She's reserved at first, but over the course of multiple visits, she starts warming up to him. Then he makes a breakthrough.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I encouraged Bob and Mary to sing a song with me, and we sang as a trio. Those were the days and the chorus is those were the days, my friend.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

We thought they'd never end Sing and dance forever and a day and after.

[Kerry Kirkland]

That that was like I had the Bob and Mary seal of approval. And Terry opened up to me and warmed up and became much more responsive.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Oh, yes, those were.

[Lynn Vincent]

The day Broderson starts visiting Terry by himself, he makes a point never to close Terry's door while he's alone with her. At first, he visits once or twice a week, but soon he's coming almost every day. He says he and Terry became friends. Broderson would spend about an hour with Terry just talking to her, trying to encourage her, but also using his engineering mind for what he calls poor man's research to see if and how she would respond to different things. He figures Terry went to Catholic school. Maybe she'll like Gregorian chants. Broderson was in a choral group in college, so he picks two chants to sing for her.

[Kerry Kirkland]

One is called Puer Natus est. The baby Jesus is born. And it's kind of light, relatively speaking. Poer notu cest? No, it's a lovely piece when other people do it anyway. And I did another piece which was deep and kind of ponderous. O magnum mysterium et admira birile Sacramento.

[Lynn Vincent]

Terry doesn't seem to recognize either song, but Broderson keeps singing them day after day.

[Kerry Kirkland]

She seemed to be developing an appreciation for Puerto Natu sest, but, oh, manum mysterium, no, it did nothing for her.

[Lynn Vincent]

Broderson also knows that Terry moans often, so he decides to encourage that.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I told her, terry, I love hearing your voice. It makes me happy when I hear your voice. And they said, terry, I'd like you to do this. I'd like you to moan, but hold it like a note if you were singing, and it'll sound like this.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Ah.

[Kerry Kirkland]

After I asked her to do it, she went, ah. And I was just blown away, astounded.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Broderson sees this as proof that Terry can hear and understand what he is asking her to do. But he wants to push his hypothesis.

[Kerry Kirkland]

And next I said, terry, why don't we do this? I want you to do the same thing, only I want you to start and stop and start and stop, and it'll sound like this.

[Lynn Vincent]

Ah. Ah, ah, ah.

[Kerry Kirkland]

And she did exactly that.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Around this time, Broderson runs across a CD of Gregorian chants. It includes Puer Natus est. He loads it onto his ipod, plugs it into Terry's boombox, and plays it for her glory.

[Lynn Vincent]

As yet.

[Kerry Kirkland]

You could see her face kind of open up as if in surprise and wonderment. And as she was listening to it, she raised her arms about to shoulder level and extended them and moved them around much more than I had ever seen her move before. But all the while she was looking up with her face filled with wonder. And you know what I concluded from that is she was filled with some emotion, wonderment, joy, whatever it might have been, she was filled with it. And that nearly made me cry, and does now.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Broderson keeps working with Terry's voice. He knows the usual drill is to try to get her to look up, left, right, down, but he doesn't think she has the motor control to do that, at least not consistently. Yet he finds that what she does with her voice is very consistent.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I told her, look, what I'd like to do is I'd like to ask you a question that you can answer with a yes or no. And if you want to answer no, I want you to moan two times and it'll sound like this. She probably thought I was completely daft that I explained things so many times to her, but I assume she'll forgive me. I said, Terry, are you 10ft tall? And she went, uh, uh.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Broderson is blown away. He wants to show Bob and Mary what he's discovered. So the next day when they visit, he asks Terry another question.

[Kerry Kirkland]

I asked her, are you purple? And she furrowed her brow like she was concentrating real hard. And then she went, no.

[Lynn Vincent]

What?

[Kerry Kirkland]

She whispered the word no as clearly as you or I could.

[Lynn Vincent]

Next time on Lawless. The Schindler's legal team uncovers medical records they've never seen before. More evidence that Terry could talk. There was a rehabilitation series of notes in which Terry said no and stopped because the therapy was so painful to her and was aghast because, of course, the other side was putting out that Terry was brain dead.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Lawless is a production of World Radio. Paul Butler is our executive producer and sound engineer. Our production assistant is Lillian Hammond. Music by Will Sheehan. Lawless is reported and written by Grace Snell, Lynn Vincent and me, Anna Johansson Brown. For more resources related to this and other episodes, visit lawlesspodcast.com thanks for joining us.