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- [00:05]
Anna Johansson Brown
Terri's time is running out and the battle for her life consumes the Schindlers. They've quit their jobs to become full time advocates. Bobby leads the charge, juggling phone calls from senators and celebrities. Suzanne fights to stay cheerful for her family.
- [00:21]
Lynn Vincent
You know, we had to stay strong for each other. We had to stay strong for Terry. I mean, we had a fight ahead of us and all of us had to stock it up and fight for her. She was, you know, fighting with, she had. So we don't want to let her down.
- [00:34]
Anna Johansson Brown
Bob's health is failing, but he forges ahead, rallying supporters. Mary spends a lot of time in prayer.
- [00:41]
Mary Schindler
My husband had a very hard time with this, very hard time, and I tried to be strong for him, but just going to mass and praying and just asking the Lord to please, just whatever you're going to do, just do the right thing and I don't want her to suffer.
- [00:59]
Anna Johansson Brown
Things at Michael Schiavo's house are also tense. He and his fiance, Jodi Sentones, are stretched to the breaking point, worn out from this all out legal war. Then another belligerent swoops in Congress.
- [01:12]
George Felos
If we don't act, there's a good chance that a living human being would be starved to death in a matter of days. And that's why the action now. That's why we are not rushing things but deliberating quickly so we can get this to the House of Representatives. She'll be starved to death.
- [01:27]
Anna Johansson Brown
Next Friday, the US House passes HR 13, the Protection of Incapacitated Persons act of 2005. It's an attempt to make a fresh sort of Terry's Law at the federal level. For Jody, it's the last straw. First the state courts and legislature, now the U.S. congress. Who knows how long things will stretch out. Now for the first time in their 12 year relationship, she asks Michael to walk away. Give up on Terry, on the fight with the Schindlers, all of it. They argue for hours. She tells him he's given it his all. No one can say he didn't try. And finally, Michael listens. On March 16, he calls his lawyer, George Filos, and tells him he's done fighting. It's time to give it up. From world radio and the creative team that brings you the world and everything in it, this is lawless.
- [02:31]
George Felos
I see a wicked man walking down a broken road I see ransomed man.
- [02:40]
Mary Schindler
In the storm Trying not to fall.
- [02:42]
George Felos
For gold Devil's at the door trying.
- [02:46]
Anna Johansson Brown
To take control.
- [02:49]
Lynn Vincent
But the Lord's gonna scatter his Bones.
- [02:53]
Anna Johansson Brown
I'm world radio features editor Anna Johansson Brown.
- [02:58]
Lynn Vincent
And I'm Lynn Vincent, New York Times best selling author and executive editor. Magazine. Lawless is a true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life, that not every crime is against the law.
- [03:10]
Anna Johansson Brown
In season two, we're finishing our investigation of the Terri Schiavo story, a case that in 2005, shocked the world. This is episode five silver bullet.
- [03:33]
Lynn Vincent
When Michael calls to say he's ready to give up the fight, Philos isn't ready to give up at all. He and Michael have a long talk. I think it's worth quoting Michael as he recalls the conversation in his book. Speaking of Philos, he writes, he reminded me that we had to realize that it wasn't just Terry anymore. It was about all the rest of the people who didn't want the government telling us how we could die and when we were allowed to decide that we didn't want further medical treatment and whether we were going to let a vocal minority change the rules for everybody. Schindler attorney David Gibbs didn't know about the conversation at the time, but looking back, he wonders about the ethics of it.
- [04:14]
David Gibbs
And there were times, obviously, lawyers give input to clients, but if a client says, I'm done and you're fighting for.
- [04:25]
Willie Rice
Death.
- [04:27]
David Gibbs
You have to step back and say, well, wait a minute. What authority do I have to push past that? And there is an element where, you know, I mean, I was honored to stand with the Schindlers, and they stood to the very end. But if they had come to me and said, david, we're not going to fight anymore. It was their decision. We're not representing ourselves. And I would say that it definitely became very personal for Mr. Filos because it had gone on for so long.
- [04:58]
Lynn Vincent
By the time Michael hangs up with Filos, he feels inspired, empowered, ready to resume the fight. But Jody doesn't feel the same way. She packs a bag, marches their kids out to the car and drives off.
- [05:18]
Anna Johansson Brown
It's March 18, 2005. Terri Schiavo sits quietly in her lounge chair in hospice. Today is the last day she'll have any food or water. Judge Greer has drawn a line in the sand. This is the day her feeding tube comes out. There will be no more delays. Terry has visitors today. Her sister Suzanne, Suzanne's husband, Michael Vitadamo, one of the Schindler's lawyers, Barbara Weller, and Terry's aunt, CB Tamaron. They're talking together, talking about Terry. If only she could speak for herself, tell the world she wants to Live. The nightmare would be over.
- [05:56]
Mary Schindler
Here's CB and all of a sudden, Barbara said, I wonder what Terry would say. And Terry, what do you think? Do you want to live?
- [06:07]
Anna Johansson Brown
What happens next? Floors, CB she says. Terry sits up in her chair and.
- [06:11]
Mary Schindler
Lifts her head just immediately, like it was like she had been listening to the whole conversation and was right on cue to answer. And very loudly to me said, ah, just guttural. And it. It was very emotional.
- [06:30]
Anna Johansson Brown
Barbara Weller says Terry can't seem to get the L out for the last word. Live. An anguished expression crosses Terri's face, and she starts to cry. Weller comforts her. She vows to tell the world what Terry tried to say, that she wants to live. Weller takes her story to the media outside.
- [06:49]
Lynn Vincent
I took her arms like this, and.
- [06:51]
Mary Schindler
I said, terry, if you could just say, I want to live, this would.
- [06:54]
David Gibbs
Be all over today.
- [06:55]
Mary Schindler
Can you just really, really try and.
- [06:57]
Lynn Vincent
Say, I want to live?
- [06:58]
Mary Schindler
And Terri went, ah. And then she screamed really loud so.
- [07:02]
Lynn Vincent
That they heard around the hallway.
- [07:04]
Mary Schindler
And she couldn't get the rest of it out.
- [07:06]
Lynn Vincent
She started crying.
- [07:06]
Mary Schindler
And I just sort of started stroking her face and saying, it's okay, Terry.
- [07:10]
Lynn Vincent
You said it out, you know, it's okay.
- [07:12]
Anna Johansson Brown
But police say that never happened.
- [07:15]
Mary Schindler
And there was a police officer standing in the doorway. And she saw it. She was standing right there and saw it. And when they asked her what she had seen, she denied it. She denied the whole thing. And all we could do was stand in a gas, you know, I know. God knows, and the three of us know what we saw. And she could have stepped forward and said, I was in the room with the three of them. And they heard it. They know what they heard. That would have changed. It would have changed everything.
- [07:51]
Anna Johansson Brown
And though Weller later files an affidavit with Judge Greer, he isn't swayed. Then, around 1:45pm, Terry's feeding tube comes out for the third time. George Felos makes the announcement.
- [08:07]
George Felos
Present at that time was a physician and a number of health care providers. Mr. Shaiva was not there at the time. I am told that it was an emotional occasion. Prayers were said at the time, and the feeding tube was removed without. Without incident. Mr. Schiavo currently is with his wife at her bedside.
- [08:46]
Lynn Vincent
Bobby's away in D.C. lobbying lawmakers to save Terry when he gets the grim news.
- [08:52]
Bobby Schindler
I was sitting down, ready to do an interview with cnn, and as I was waiting, I was watching the tv and it said Judge Greer had just ordered Terry's feeding tube removed. And I remember I Got up out of my chair and just left. I remember CNN was doing anything they could to try to get me to sit down and do an interview, and I was just like, not.
- [09:12]
Lynn Vincent
Now back in Florida, Suzanne renews her resolve to get Terri's food and hydration restored.
- [09:23]
Anna Johansson Brown
Now keep in mind, Terry's feeding tube was removed twice before, and both times it was put back in. I truly never believed that Terry was going to die. Even on the day the feeding tube was removed, I thought, okay, well, now.
- [09:35]
Lynn Vincent
We just have to get it put back in. But this time around, Mary isn't so sure.
- [09:41]
Mary Schindler
And I guess that's when I decided, you know, that I better brace myself because this looks like it's, you know, no one's going to help her this time.
- [09:54]
Lynn Vincent
Two days earlier, on March 16, after Philos convinced Michael to stay in the fight, Jody loaded up her car and drove away. After she left, Michael says he stayed up crying all night. He knew she'd be back, but he felt bad he hadn't been able to play both roles as well as he thought. Terry's mic and Jody's mic. By now, the case has dragged on longer than anyone thought possible. Michael has kept going despite so many people urging him to quit. Not just Jodi, strangers from around the world. They've sent Michael lots of ugly mail. Threats against his children, against his sister in law, Joan, even death threats. Someone offered to pay him a million dollars to just walk away. In any case, it's too late now. Michael says even if he wanted to reverse things, he couldn't. The judge's order isn't tied to him. It's based on the court's determination of Terry's wishes. Case closed. Jody stays away for just one night, one long, miserable night. She says the morning after their fight, she goes back to Michael. She says she realized walking away from him now would be like him walking away from terror.
- [11:11]
Anna Johansson Brown
The same day, Terry's feeding tube comes out. Just a few hours before the procedure, Congress issues a subpoena for Terri.
- [11:18]
David Gibbs
And what the Congress was wanting to do is they wanted to meet Terri. They wanted to have her come to Washington.
- [11:28]
Anna Johansson Brown
Congress requests that Judge Greer delay the feeding tube removal so Terry can answer the summons.
- [11:33]
David Gibbs
And the concept was a simple one. Before we allow this innocent disabled woman to die, we want to meet her. We want to see her. We would like to put our eyes on her. We'd like to do what Judge Greer never did.
- [11:51]
Anna Johansson Brown
Filos finds some reporters and unloads the.
- [11:55]
George Felos
Subpoena issued by the United States House of Representatives. Is nothing short of thuggery. It was an attempt to intimidate and coerce the treating physicians in this case, the health care providers in this case, and Mr. Schiavo from carrying out the lawful court order. It was odious, it was shocking, it was disgusting, and I think all Americans should be very alarmed about that.
- [12:27]
Anna Johansson Brown
Greer gets a call about the motion while he's on the road.
- [12:29]
George Felos
And I actually heard that motion going down I95 toward my undisclosed location.
- [12:37]
Anna Johansson Brown
Sheriff's deputies had whisked him away to keep him safe.
- [12:39]
George Felos
And I denied that motion.
- [12:42]
Anna Johansson Brown
Despite the prayers of millions, pleas from the Vatican, the President and an act of Congress. It came down to a handful of judges, especially this Judge George Greer of.
- [12:54]
Lynn Vincent
4, who time after time ruled that.
- [12:57]
Anna Johansson Brown
Terry should be allowed to die.
- [13:02]
Lynn Vincent
By now. Judge Greer's five year involvement in the case is affecting more than just his physical safety. It's also bleeding over into his spiritual life.
- [13:11]
Willie Rice
Occasionally you will hear you kicked Judge Greer out of the church. That's not quite at all what happened.
- [13:17]
Lynn Vincent
Willie Rice is the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Clearwater. He came on staff in the fall of 2004, straight into the thick of the Schiavo case. George Greer was a member at the church, had been for years.
- [13:31]
Willie Rice
Clearwater was. I mean, it's a big part of Tampa Bay, and yet there are people here who've been here decades and they knew, you know, they would have called him George. You know, he taught in their Sunday school class. So, you know, Judge Greer was not some, you know, four eyed monster to people here. He was somebody that they had dinner with, somebody they knew.
- [13:53]
Lynn Vincent
Rice says Greer was already distancing himself from the church he didn't attend that winter or the spring of 2005. So rice didn't really connect with Greer except for one cordial phone call and that was it. Then the Schiavo case, which had quieted down for a season, ramped up again.
- [14:11]
Willie Rice
And we start getting letters and calls from everywhere. I mean, all of a sudden, you know, we're getting letters every day telling us, you know, how terrible we were and people calling our office and mostly from the conservative side, the pro life side, unfortunately, there are voices on both sides of the extreme that are very volatile and, you know, very unkind and, you know, so all of a sudden, you know, our secretaries are getting these calls like we're a terrible church or you're liberal church, or why don't you do something about this judge? What kind of church are you to have a member doing this, you know, Blah, blah, blah.
- [14:54]
Lynn Vincent
As part of his mission to help the Schindlers, Randall Terry even held a protest outside Calvary Baptist. That spring of 2005, the St. Petersburg Times ran a profile of Greer. He told the paper he'd quit attending and tithing to the church back in 2003. In another interview, he cited a couple of editorials in the Florida Baptist Witness that had criticized his handling of the Schiavo case. Calvary Baptist had a subscription to the witness and routinely sent its articles to church members. Greer called the editorials about him unchristian. In the midst of all this, Willie Rice decided to reach out. He tried calling Greer at home, but never got an answer.
- [15:37]
Willie Rice
I knew he was getting death threats, so my assumption was he's probably not home. So I thought, well, you just write him a letter. And I thought, he may not be at his home. You better send it to the courthouse. But I didn't know that when you went to the courthouse. That's public record in the state of Florida.
- [15:55]
Lynn Vincent
That's how Rice's letter, which he meant to be private, went public. In the letter, Rice asked Greer to clarify where he stood with the church. He wrote, if you've chosen to leave Calvary, distance yourself from her and criticize her publicly, then why have you not formally transferred your membership elsewhere? And that's the line that got everyone's attention. Even today. News stories quote it and claim Pastor Rice was kicking Judge Greer out. But that's not what happened. Rice's letter went on, I am not asking you to do this, but since you have taken the initiative of withdrawal and since your connection with Calvary continues to be a point of contact concern, it would seem the logical, and I would say, biblical course.
- [16:40]
Willie Rice
And it was just meant to be a private question from a pastor to a member, like, look, if you are that angry at us, then why are you still claiming to be a member here? And he responded to that by withdrawing his membership from the church.
- [16:56]
Lynn Vincent
Still, those media reports began, the one saying Rice kicked a venerable member out of his own church. And so that Easter, Willie Rice has to have security, too.
- [17:10]
Anna Johansson Brown
Outside the hospice, a swelling number of protesters demand action. Let Terry live.
- [17:15]
Mary Schindler
She has the right to live.
- [17:17]
Anna Johansson Brown
Let Terry live. She has the right to live. Mary is tired. Everyone can see it. She comes out and makes a brief statement to the press.
- [17:26]
Mary Schindler
Please, please, please save my little girl.
- [17:32]
Anna Johansson Brown
In response to that cry, an army of allies rallies. They're working desperately around the clock, racking their brains, searching for a silver bullet to get Terry hydrated before it's too late.
- [17:44]
David Gibbs
We were literally in the middle of a tsunami of legal and legislative activity. And just it was just that constant search for the miracle, you know, to use the old football term, the Hail Mary, the play at the end.
- [17:58]
Anna Johansson Brown
On March 19, the day after Terry's tube is removed, lawmakers in Congress say they're drafting yet another piece of legislation. The earlier bill failed, but maybe this one will stick. Here's a report from NPR.
- [18:11]
Lynn Vincent
It's been more than 24 hours since hospice doctors acting on a court order removed the feeding tube that's kept Terri Schiavo alive for the last 15 years. Republicans on Capitol Hill say they've reached a compromise on new legislation to prolong Schiavo's life.
- [18:27]
Anna Johansson Brown
We'll be hearing the House and Senate passed different versions of the bill. But time runs out for a compromise. It's Palm Sunday weekend and lawmakers have already packed their bags and headed home. Conservative activists spring into action, calling up representatives. People like Lori Kehoe of the National Right to Life sound the alarm.
- [18:46]
Lynn Vincent
I think there were probably a number of war rooms set up all over. I know, you know, as I said, both on the Senate and the House sides, they were, they were working their hearts out to rescue this woman. And I know that there were people of goodwill all over the country and in fact, I know all over the world who were waiting on the edge of their seats and doing what they could do.
- [19:04]
Anna Johansson Brown
The strategy works. Representatives start flying back from every corner of the map. Vic Snyder is a Democrat from Arkansas. He's already at home when his phone goes off Saturday evening.
- [19:14]
David Gibbs
I think my wife and I were.
- [19:15]
Lynn Vincent
Having a couple people for dinner and we were kind of scurrying around getting ready.
- [19:18]
George Felos
There was not even an indication of.
- [19:20]
Lynn Vincent
What the topic was. Now after a while, I thought, well, it must be about Mrs. Scheibel. But there was no one.
- [19:26]
Anna Johansson Brown
The next day, Snyder's on a plane back to Washington.
- [19:29]
Lynn Vincent
On Capitol Hill, congressional leaders opened a rare Sunday session in hopes of pushing through legislation to prolong the life of Terri Schiavo. The Senate passed the bill this afternoon. The House is to take it up this evening. The bill would open new legal avenues to members of Schiavo's family who want the feeding tube reinserted.
- [19:49]
Anna Johansson Brown
President Bush flies back on Air Force One from his Texas ranch. He's on standby to sign the bill as soon as it passes.
- [19:57]
Lynn Vincent
Sunday morning, many lawmakers went to church first thing celebrating Palm Sunday before heading for the Capitol. In the House, Democrats planned a last minute challenge to the bill. We're not doctors. We're not medical experts. We're not bioethicists. We're members of Congress. We make laws and we uphold the law. And we swore to protect the Constitution. And we are thumbing our nose at the Constitution.
- [20:20]
Anna Johansson Brown
If this goes forward, George Felos appeals to the Democrats to make a stand.
- [20:24]
George Felos
And I want to say to Hillary Clinton and Bob Kerry and Tom Harkin and the Patrick Leahy and the Democratic senators, don't do this to Terri Schiavo again. To have her feeding tube inserted by a subsequent act of Congress before she dies would be a horrific act upon her body.
- [20:48]
Anna Johansson Brown
But the GOP has Senate and House majorities and House leader Tom DeLay is staunchly on Bobby's side.
- [20:55]
George Felos
It's a very moving meeting to listen to how that young man has lived over the last 11 years and what.
- [21:05]
Bobby Schindler
They'Ve been through is heartbreaking.
- [21:09]
Lynn Vincent
And yet they see that there is hope.
- [21:12]
Anna Johansson Brown
Delay even invites Bobby to watch the debate from his private room in the Capitol. The final vote is just after midnight. Here's Democrat Vic Snyder again.
- [21:24]
Lynn Vincent
I arrived at about 9:30 in the.
- [21:26]
David Gibbs
Evening Sunday night, went and grabbed some.
- [21:29]
Lynn Vincent
Takeout, ran to my apartment, watch the C span debate there while I change clothes. The vote goes off a little after 12. I walk across the street and cast a vote.
- [21:39]
Anna Johansson Brown
Snyder casts his vote for the schindlers. So do 46 other Democrats. The bill passes 203 yeas, 58 nays.
- [21:52]
Lynn Vincent
Not every member was there. The House had been in recess and 174 members don't vote. But of those represented, the tally is surprisingly bipartisan. Nearly half of Democrats approve the measure. Then in the Senate, the bill earns yeas from some of the most liberal lawmakers in the Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, Barack Obama. When victory is sure, Tom delay finds Bobby and gives him a bear hug. Inside the room, everyone is laughing in relief and an aide rushes to wake up the president. Mr. Bush emerged from his bedroom and standing in the hallway of the second floor residence of the White House, signed the bill into law at 1:11am the next day. President Bush announces the news to cheers and applause.
- [22:41]
George Felos
Democrats and Republicans in Congress came together last night to give Terri Schiavo's parents another opportunity to save their daughter's life. Extraordinary circumstances like this, it is wise to always err on the side of life.
- [23:01]
Lynn Vincent
Bobby is ecstatic.
- [23:03]
Bobby Schindler
And after the law was passed, I remember I was on the first plane back down to be with my family. Extreme. I was encouraged. We were very happy because we thought that Terry's life was gonna be spared once again.
- [23:21]
David Gibbs
Oh, God, we cry out.
- [23:22]
George Felos
The prayers of the religious right were answered early this morning when Congress passed a law allowing Schiavo's parents to take their fight to a federal court.
- [23:31]
Anna Johansson Brown
But Terry's fate is not yet sealed. The new law allows the Schindlers to sue in federal court, but it doesn't guarantee the outcome.
- [23:40]
George Felos
It does not give any order to reinsert the feeding tube. That would be the judge's decision, and it would be actually the judge's decision about whether to even take up the case. But the sponsors of this legislation say they can't imagine that a judge would not do this and would let Terri Schiavo die.
- [23:54]
Anna Johansson Brown
In the meantime, David Gibbs rushes the newly minted law to the courthouse in Tampa. It's 2:00 in the morning, but reporters already cluster on the sidewalk outside.
- [24:03]
Lynn Vincent
Friends, family, politicians, and protesters are waiting tonight for a federal judge to rule on the fate of a brain damaged woman in Florida.
- [24:11]
George Felos
Armed with the new law, the parents ask for a restraining order against letting Schiavo die until a new hearing is held into her rights. The judge would have to order that the tube be reinserted.
- [24:21]
Anna Johansson Brown
The court clerk lets Gibbs in, then locks the door. The rattle of her keys echoes across the room. She leads him through the dark hallways to her office.
- [24:31]
David Gibbs
As a federal employee, I mean, the president and the Congress have just acted, so this is a huge deal.
- [24:35]
Anna Johansson Brown
That's where Gibbs and the clerk run into their first major setback.
- [24:39]
David Gibbs
The computers won't boot up, and she is required to randomly draw a judge. And so she's trying to, you know, get the computers to boot up. And again, I'm gracious. She's working in the middle of the night and we're.
- [24:55]
Anna Johansson Brown
The clerk suggests a new strategy.
- [24:57]
David Gibbs
She's like, well, we could do it the old fashioned way. And I said, well, what's that? And so she wrote on a little piece of paper the names of the available judges. And she dumped a candy dish on her desk. And she put the names of the judges in the dish, shook it a little bit, and said, pick your judge.
- [25:17]
Anna Johansson Brown
Gibbs recognizes it's a pivotal moment. Terry's life depends on which name is written on a scrap of paper pulled at random from a secretary's candy dish.
- [25:26]
David Gibbs
As I was reaching into the candy dish, I thought, you know, there's some judges that I know will put the feeding tube in and save Terry. There's some that I think will probably not show too much interest.
- [25:39]
Anna Johansson Brown
And then Gibbs reaches in and pulls.
- [25:41]
David Gibbs
Out a name and she says, you've selected Judge Whittemore and so we'll be contacting him immediately.
- [25:48]
Anna Johansson Brown
But when the clerk rings up Judge Whitmore at 3am he doesn't show the urgency Gibbs was hoping for. Whitmore calls back an hour later and tells Gibbs to go home. He'll call a hearing later that day. Terry will have to wait at least that much longer for food and water.
- [26:09]
Lynn Vincent
Whittemore's hearing opens at 3pm on Monday, March 22. Congress moved heaven and earth to get the case here. Now Atteri's fate comes down to the decision of a single judge.
- [26:21]
David Gibbs
Certainly lawyers understand you can win cases, you can lose cases. Judges can rule one way or another way. Juries can come back with verdicts. But at the end of the day, we knew that anything that the courts would do adverse to the case ultimately resulted in Terry's death. And that was just a burden through the whole thing that is really kind of unfathomable.
- [26:45]
Lynn Vincent
The hearing doesn't go well for the Schindlers.
- [26:48]
David Gibbs
I sort of expected, and maybe this was hopeful, that the Congress acted, the President acted, and the federal court would do what was necessary to let all of that take effect, that there would be a reinsertion of the feeding tube and we would look at everything and that this could go on for a year or two. And if Terry was to ultimately die, it would be after a very fair due process had occurred in the federal courts. So my expectation was for the judge to, in my mind, do what made the most sense. And sadly and unfortunately, that's not what he chose to do.
- [27:29]
Jeb Bush
A federal judge has denied the request.
- [27:31]
Lynn Vincent
Of Terri Schiavo's parents to order the.
- [27:34]
Jeb Bush
Reinsertion of a feeding tube for the severely brain damaged woman. US District Judge James Whittemore wrote that Schiavo's life and liberty interests had been.
- [27:44]
Lynn Vincent
Protected by Florida courts.
- [27:46]
Jeb Bush
He wrote that despite these difficult and time strained circumstances, this court is, quote.
- [27:53]
Lynn Vincent
Constrained to apply the law to the issues before it.
- [27:58]
Anna Johansson Brown
Terry's feeding tube has been out for five days now. Her body is showing signs of dehydration.
- [28:04]
Mary Schindler
It seemed so grotesque. I saw her when it was really hard. I mean, her eyes were sunken. She was like gray color and no real movement or acknowledgement.
- [28:16]
Anna Johansson Brown
By now, CB and Mike Tamaro have come down from Corning to help care for the Schindlers. They can't believe what's happening to their niece.
- [28:24]
Mary Schindler
If I lay down there on the.
- [28:26]
Lynn Vincent
Bed and you don't feed me for.
- [28:28]
Mary Schindler
Two weeks or give Me water for two weeks.
- [28:31]
Lynn Vincent
That was Terri's condition. She didn't have anything attached for her breathing. She didn't have anything keeping her heart together and pumping.
- [28:40]
George Felos
You'd die too, in two weeks if nobody fed you or drink, gave you something to drink.
- [28:44]
Anna Johansson Brown
The Tamaros are worried about Bob and Mary.
- [28:46]
Mary Schindler
No mother in this entire world should ever have to go through that in their life, ever. It's the most horrendous, horrific thing I have ever seen in my life. And it was happening to my daughter.
- [28:57]
Bobby Schindler
When they're babies, you go out of.
- [29:00]
David Gibbs
Your way to protect them and that's.
- [29:03]
Bobby Schindler
Your role as a parent, to protect your children. And then you try and get them help and you can't. And you're treated not as a parent, but as an outsider. You have no voice in the matter.
- [29:17]
Anna Johansson Brown
Things get so bad after a while that Bobby and Suzanne ask their parents not to go visit Terry anymore.
- [29:23]
Bobby Schindler
We told my parents, I think it was two or three days before Terry died, not to go in her room anymore because of the way Terry looked, knowing she was suffering. It was. It was just. It was. It was absolutely just horrible.
- [29:36]
George Felos
After losing twice in federal court today and in the Florida Senate, Bob and.
- [29:40]
Lynn Vincent
Mary Schindler turned to Governor Jeb Bush.
- [29:43]
George Felos
Who suggested the state could once again.
- [29:45]
Lynn Vincent
Intervene in this emotional case in the state Capitol. The new bill has hit a snag. Republican Senator Jim King. King had voted for the first state level version of Terry's law, the one he'd purposely helped craft so narrowly that it was almost certain to be ruled unconstitutional. But he still felt deeply conflicted about his yes vote. Now he's determined not to make the same mistake twice. And he's recruited eight other Republican senators to take a stand, too. On Wednesday, the Florida Senate rejected a bill proposed by the governor that would.
- [30:19]
George Felos
Have barred the removal of feeding tubes.
- [30:21]
Lynn Vincent
From any patients like Schiavo. At the same time, Bush sent lawyers for the state of Florida into court seeking custody of the 41 year old based on allegations of neglect. That same day, Governor Bush calls a surprise press conference. Rumor has it the Governor has an ace up his sleeve. A new strategy to snatch Terry back from death for a third time.
- [30:46]
Jeb Bush
And the Governor says, come down to the press room. And it's packed full of local and national media.
- [30:53]
Anna Johansson Brown
That's Raquel Rodriguez, Rocky for short. She's served as Governor Bush's general counsel since 2002. For weeks, Rocky and her team have been busy behind the scenes researching avenues to save Terry. But that hasn't been easy lately.
- [31:08]
Jeb Bush
We suddenly started getting a bunch of calls from out of state. We were told it was a Wisconsin radio station that had then circulating the direct contact information of the attorneys for the governor. And the calls just. And the emails and the faxes just started pouring in.
- [31:29]
Anna Johansson Brown
So many calls that operations inside the Governor's office grind to a halt.
- [31:34]
Jeb Bush
And so we were trying to do our best to save Terry, but our ability to do that was being compromised by the shutdown of our communication systems, by all these people calling and emailing and insulting us. At that point, I told our administration, I said, look, our office cannot function. You need to figure out a way to divert the calls and the emails because we're not going to be able to do anything for Terry. We activated the emergency operations center and diverted the calls to operators there. You're not just getting attacked by the people that are adverse to you in court, but you're getting attacked by the people who should be cheering you on.
- [32:23]
Anna Johansson Brown
Now, in the wood paneled press room, all eyes are on the Governor. He announces that a Mayo Clinic neurologist, Dr. William Cheshire, has just submitted an affidavit challenging Terry's PVS diagnosis.
- [32:35]
Jeb Bush
And the Governor made a statement and he responded to some questions. And I think there was a direct question at him. Well, what can you do?
- [32:45]
Anna Johansson Brown
It's the million dollar question. As courts slam their doors and legislative efforts fail, what can the Governor do?
- [32:52]
Jeb Bush
And then he said, well, I'm going to let my counsel answer that.
- [32:55]
Anna Johansson Brown
When Rocky hears that, she feels sheer panic.
- [33:00]
Jeb Bush
I think that's a first press conference that I'd spoken at ever. I was deathly afraid since we hadn't discussed in advance what I was supposed to say. I was deathly afraid of saying the wrong thing, but I was trying to follow the Governor's lead, that we were not giving up. And so I probably was way too candid. And I said, well, based on. And I cited the Florida statute, DCF could take protective custody of Ms. Schiavo. And I'll leave it at that.
- [33:36]
Lynn Vincent
At that moment, Bobby Schindler is waiting outside the press room. Only reporters are allowed inside, so he doesn't hear Rocky's bombshell remark. Bobby turns to go, and that's when someone stops him, says the Governor would like to see him. Bobby makes his way to the outer office. Inside, the place is hopping. Rocky Rodriguez is there, along with attorney Krista Kalmus and Senator Mel Martinez. Bobby takes a seat across from Jeb Bush. The Governor then delivers astonishing news. His staff is now working full speed ahead on a plan to rescue Terry. Bobby's heart leaps with joy. The governor tells Bobby the wheels have already been set in motion for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to cross police lines at Florida Hospice of the Suncoast. Next time on Lawless.
- [34:37]
Jeb Bush
It's really unthinkable that you would starve or dehydrate somebody to death whose organ functions are all operated. She wasn't wasn't on a ventilator. She wasn't on any kind of artificial cardiac stimulation. I just am. Still to this day, I'm shocked.
- [34:58]
Anna Johansson Brown
Lawless is a production of World Radio. Paul Butler is our executive producer and sound engineer. Our production assistant is Lillian Hammond. Music by Will Sheehan. Lawless is reported and written by Grace Snell, Lynn Vincent and me, Anna Johansson Brown. For more resources related to this and other episodes, visit lawlesspodcast. Com. Thanks for joining.