Lawless Encore: Season 2, Episode 7 - Their own little gods

Summary

The World and Everything In It: Lawless Encore - Season 2, Episode 7: "Their Own Little Gods"

Release Date: May 24, 2025

In the poignant and deeply reflective episode titled "Their Own Little Gods," World Radio's podcast Lawless Encore delves into the intricate and emotionally charged aftermath of Terri Schiavo's death. This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of the legal battles, personal tragedies, and broader societal implications surrounding one of America's most controversial right-to-die cases. Through interviews, expert analyses, and heartfelt narratives, the episode captures the enduring legacy of Terri Schiavo and its impact on her family and society.

---

1. The Final Hours and Public Reaction

The episode opens with the somber news of Terri Schiavo's passing, painting a vivid picture of a bustling America indifferent to individual tragedies. Reporter Anna Johansen Brown sets the scene:

Anna Johansen Brown [00:03]: "It's business as usual in America's largest city. Skyscrapers overshadow, teeming sidewalks, yellow taxis zip by. Neon headlines crawl across billboards."

As news of Terri's death spreads, public reactions vary sharply. Interviewees like Bobby Schindler and Linda Galupo express conflicting emotions:

Bobby Schindler [00:24]: "She died. Whoa. They should have put the feeding tube in her so she could live like a human being."

Linda Galupo [00:25]: "I'm so glad. I think, that they should have left her alone a long time ago."

2. Political and Religious Perspectives

The episode highlights the diverse viewpoints surrounding Terri's death. Robert Oberhand from West Los Angeles criticizes the political and religious exploitation of the case:

Robert Oberhand [00:40]: "I think the politics and the religious establishment just made hay out of it."

Father Frank Pavone offers a compassionate plea for a culture that values and protects the vulnerable:

Father Frank Pavone [01:30]: "I urge all those who honor Terri Schiavo to continue to work to build a culture of life where all Americans are welcomed and valued and protected, especially those who live at the mercy of others."

3. Legal Proceedings and Autopsy Findings

A critical segment of the episode focuses on the aftermath of Terri's death, particularly the autopsy conducted by Dr. John R. Thogmartin. Lynn Vincent breaks down the comprehensive nature of the autopsy:

Lynn Vincent [06:38]: "Thog Martin's report is nothing if not thorough. He collaborates with a team of other medical specialists..."

However, despite the exhaustive examination, Dr. Thogmartin concludes:

Anna Johansen Brown [08:33]: "Mrs. Scheibo suffered a severe anoxic brain injury, the cause of which cannot be determined with reasonable medical certainty."

This ambiguity fueled ongoing debates about Terri's actual medical condition and the validity of her persistent vegetative state (PVS) diagnosis.

4. Personal Reflections and Media Scrutiny

The Schindler family's reflections reveal the emotional toll of media scrutiny and public judgment. Bobby Schindler recounts a tense moment during a press conference:

Bobby Schindler [03:34]: "When I came out after she died, that's when I said, Terri didn't die this morning. She was killed... they are murderers."

This declaration led to the abrupt end of the press conference, illustrating the strained relationship between the family and the media.

5. Memorial Services and Familial Struggles

Terri's burial becomes a focal point of tension. Michael Schiavo opts for a private burial in Sylvan Abbey Memorial Park, deliberately distancing the Schindler family from the ceremony:

Anna Johansen Brown [14:07]: "The Schindlers don't attend Terry's burial ceremony. They're not invited."

In contrast, the Schindlers organize a large memorial service at the Most Holy Name of Jesus Catholic Church, reflecting their enduring grief and commitment to Terri's legacy.

6. The Legacy and Ongoing Advocacy

The episode delves into the Schindler family's transformation into unwavering advocates against euthanasia and for the rights of the medically vulnerable. Bobby Schindler discusses the establishment of the Terri Schiavo Life and Hope Network:

Bobby Schindler [41:13]: "With Terry's experience, it was an easy decision to make because... there's a lot of families that are dealing with... they need help."

Their efforts extend to collaborating with Catholic Healthcare International to open the Terri Schiavo Home for the Brain Injured, aiming to provide rehabilitation and hope for those similarly afflicted.

7. Reflections from Key Figures

The episode features introspective insights from various individuals involved in the case:

• Judge Greer, renowned for his impartial handling of the case, reflects on the importance of judicial independence:

  Judge Greer [35:11]: "I have no real regrets on the case. I have regrets on how it played out. I think that was unfortunate..."

• Pat Anderson, a legal advisor, shares her enduring grief and disillusionment with the judicial system:

  Pat Anderson [35:11]: "I believed in the rule of law and that ultimately justice would prevail. And that was not the case in this matter."

8. Shifting Public Attitudes and Legal Implications

The episode examines the evolving landscape of euthanasia and assisted suicide, highlighting legislative changes since Terri's death:

Lynn Vincent [26:54]: "Lobbyists push for these measures using words like compassion, choice, wise demise, and death with dignity."

Despite increasing legalization of assisted suicide across various states and countries, Bobby Schindler warns of the potential dangers:

Bobby Schindler [27:32]: "We are convincing people that based on someone's suffering is a reason to kill somebody."

9. Personal Narratives and Healing

Interwoven with legal and political discourse are the deeply personal stories of the Schindler family members, illustrating their paths to healing and continued advocacy. Mary Schindler's move to rural Alabama symbolizes a quest for peace, while Bobby grapples with forgiveness and finding solace through faith.

Bobby Schindler [43:37]: "I wasn't much of a practicing Catholic... it was only through her experience... that I've really... helped me understand the importance of the relationship I need to have with Christ."

10. Conclusion: Enduring Impact and Moving Forward

In its concluding segments, the episode underscores Terri Schiavo's lasting influence on her family's mission and their commitment to preventing similar tragedies. The Schindlers' dedication to advocacy ensures that Terri's story remains a catalyst for change, emphasizing the importance of personal medical directives and compassionate care for the vulnerable.

Father Frank Pavone [28:59]: "I hope they say, remember the Terri Schiavo story."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Bobby Schindler [03:34]: "Terri didn't die this morning. She was killed."

• Father Frank Pavone [01:30]: "I urge all those who honor Terri Schiavo to continue to work to build a culture of life..."

• Bobby Schindler [27:32]: "We are convincing people that based on someone's suffering is a reason to kill somebody."

• Bobby Schindler [43:37]: "I wasn't much of a practicing Catholic... through her experience... that helped me understand the importance of the relationship I need to have with Christ."

---

Production Credits:

Lawless is meticulously crafted by World Radio's creative team. The episode features the voices of Joy O'Regan and Daniel Paladin, with legal counsel from Jonathan Bailey. Executive Producer and Sound Engineer Paul Butler, Production Assistant Lillian Hammond, and Chief Content Officer Nick Eicher ensure high-quality production. Music by Will Sheehan complements the narrative's emotional depth.

Final Thoughts:

"Their Own Little Gods" stands as a testament to the profound personal and societal reverberations of the Terri Schiavo case. By intertwining legal analysis, personal testimonies, and reflective insights, Lawless Encore offers listeners a nuanced understanding of the complexities surrounding life, death, and the moral obligations we hold toward the most vulnerable among us.

Transcript

[Anna Johansen Brown]

It's business as usual in America's largest city. Skyscrapers overshadow, teeming sidewalks, yellow taxis zip by. Neon headlines crawl across billboards. Top story, the death of a brain injured woman in Florida. Camera crews prowl the New York City streets, stopping passersby for reactions.

[Bobby Schindler]

She died.

[Linda Galupo]

Yeah.

[Bobby Schindler]

Whoa. They should have put the feeding tube in her so she could live like a human being. Like a human being supposed to.

[Linda Galupo]

I'm so glad. I think, that they should have left her alone a long time ago.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

News of Terri Schiavo's death is breaking in other cities, too.

[Bobby Schindler]

Robert Oberhand, West Los Angeles. I think the politics and the religious establishment just made hay out of it.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Thought it was in bad taste, out of proportion.

[Linda Galupo]

My name is Linda Galupo and I live in Mattydale. I don't think anyone has the right to pull the plug on someone. I really don't. You would never give up hope.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

An ocean away, the Vatican's Cardinal Martino calls Terry's death an execution.

[Bobby Schindler]

Stopping denying the nutrition has been converted in a death sentence and just death sentence of an armed and defenseless person.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

And from the White House briefing room, President George Bush addresses the nation.

[Father Frank Pavone]

I urge all those who honor Terri Schiavo to continue to work to build a culture of life where all Americans are welcomed and valued and protected, especially those who live at the mercy of others. The essence of civilization is that the strong have a duty to protect the weak. Cases where there are serious doubts and questions, the presumption should be in the favor of life.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

From world radio and the creative team that brings brings you the world and everything in it. This is Lawless.

[Father Frank Pavone]

I see a wicked man Walking down a broken road I see ransomed man in the stone Trying not to fall for gold Devil's at the door trying to take control but the Lord's gonna scatter his bones.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

I'm World Radio features editor Anna Johansson Brown.

[Lynn Vincent]

And I'm New York Times best selling author and World Magaz executive editor Lynn Vincent. Lawless is a true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life. That not every crime is against the law. In season two, we're back to finish our investigation of the Terri Schiavo story.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

This is our last episode of season two, Episode seven, Their Own Little Gods.

[Lynn Vincent]

That same morning, attorney George Felos breaks the news of Terri's death to the crowd of reporters and protesters massed outside Florida Hospice of the Sun Coast.

[Father Frank Pavone]

My condolences to the entire Schiavo and Schindler family and all those in the country. And around the world who are grieving Terry's loss.

[Lynn Vincent]

Father Fr. Frank Pavone also holds a press conference that day. But he takes a bit of a different tone.

[Bobby Schindler]

When I came out after she died, that's when I said, terry didn't die this morning. She was killed. And I said, and Michael Jiavo and George Filos, they are murderers. And there was a gasp on the.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Part of the reporter.

[Bobby Schindler]

Murderers. And at that point, the press conference ended. I think even my own staff was afraid of what I was going to say next.

[Lynn Vincent]

Meanwhile, the Schindlers take refuge with excitement. Extended family members at home, they're exhausted, but they also feel the need to speak, to thank their supporters and to honor Terri's fight for life. They book a press conference of their own for four o' clock. David Gibbs helps them prepare a statement. When the time comes, three Schindlers pile into cars for the all too familiar trek to the hospice. But Mary stays behind. She can't yet bear to face the world with her grief. Outside the hospice, Bob, Bobby and Suzanne encounter a sea of microphones and cameras. More than ever before, for Suzanne, the moment has an out of body quality. As she steps forward to speak, she feels like an actor playing a part.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Terry is now with God and she's been released from all earthly burdens after these recent years of neglect at the.

[Lynn Vincent]

Hands of those who were supposed to.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Protect and care for her.

[Lynn Vincent]

She is finally at peace with God for eternity. Bobby addresses his words directly to Terry.

[Bobby Schindler]

As a member of our family unable to speak for yourself, you spoke loudly, Terry. We love you dearly, but we know that God loves you more than we do. We must accept your untimely death as God's will. Our prayer at this time is that our nation will remember the plight of persons with disabilities and commit within our hearts to defend their lives and their dignity for many generations to come.

[Lynn Vincent]

Afterward, people approach the siblings to say how moved they were by their words. But Suzanne just feels numb.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Then, just like that, the storm of media attention blows over. The never ending news cycle grinds on. Reporters pack up and head out to the next big story.

[Bobby Schindler]

Most of them flew to Rome, where the Pope was dying. That became the new story.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

When Bobby hears about the Pope's condition, it brings him to the verge of tears. He's wrestled a lot with his Catholic faith throughout Terry's ordeal, but now he feels like this is a clear sign from God, an acknowledgement of Terry's worth and suffering.

[Bobby Schindler]

I don't think you can ignore that. And I think God was making a tremendous statement on how we need to treat, you know, people like Terry.

[Lynn Vincent]

The day after Terry dies, Dr. John R. Thogmartin performs an autopsy on her body. Thogmartin is Pinellas County's chief medical examiner. More than two months later, on June 13, he releases his report.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The next big question in the Terri Schiavo story is whether or not the autopsy results resolve the central issue, which.

[Bobby Schindler]

Is just how brain damaged was she?

[Lynn Vincent]

Bog Martin's report is nothing if not thorough. He collaborates with a team of other medical specialists, including neuropathologist Dr. Stephen J. Nelson. Together, they take 72 external photographs and 116 internal photographs of Terry's body. They dissect her neck, spine and brain, run toxicology tests and pore over Terry's court and medical records, including confidential reports by the Florida Department of Children and Families. Thog Martin tackles the issues one by one, starting with the question haunting the whole what really happened to Terri Schiavo that night in 1990?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

In 1992, Michael won a medical malpractice suit on Terry's behalf. He said Terry had a secret case of bulimia that triggered her collapse. Now, though, Thogmartin dismantles that theory. He points out no one ever saw Terri binging, purging or taking laxatives. The whole case centered on her low potassium levels at the time she was admitted to the er. The night of her injury after her collapse, Teri spent over an hour at the brink of death, her heart beating an irregular, deadly rhythm called ventricular fibrillation. Paramedics flooded her system with more than a liter of extra fluids and chemicals. Dextrose, dopamine, lidocaine, Narcan, epinephrine trying to jumpstart her heart. Those substances are linked to drops in blood electrolytes like potassium. Thog Martin says the epinephrine dosage alone is enough to account for Terri's low potassium. And her potassium level was the main building block of Terry's 1990 bulimia diagnosis. Now Thog Martin calls that diagnosis suspect at best.

[Lynn Vincent]

Thog Martin also rules out a heart attack and traumatic injury as likely causes. He sees no evidence for strangulation, either. At least no signs of injuries show up on Terry's original scans from the ER and icu. He assesses a number of other theories drugs, caffeine, heart anomalies. But there's no evidence for any of those either. Finally, Thogmartin is forced to admit that he doesn't know what happened to Terry. He writes, Mrs. Scheibo suffered a severe anoxic brain injury, the cause of which cannot be determined with reasonable medical certainty.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Thog Martin also assesses the state of Terry's brain. It's half the weight it should be. Here's CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

[Bobby Schindler]

Well, they talked about Karen Quindlen, who.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Had been in a persistent vegetative state.

[Bobby Schindler]

For about 10 years, and her brain's.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Weight was about 800 grams. They talk about versus Terry's, which was about 600 grams.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

That gets splashed all over the news headlines, proclaim Terry was in PBS and that Michael Schiavo was right all along. But some critical distinctions are lost in all the noise. Here's Dr. Gupta again.

[Bobby Schindler]

You know, persistent vegetative state is a clinical diagnosis. That's only a diagnosis that can be made when somebody is alive and you're getting a static picture in time, Nancy.

[Father Frank Pavone]

At that point, when you're doing an autopsy.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Doc Marten says as much in his report and in a conversation with David Gibbs later on.

[Bobby Schindler]

And he said, no question, you can't prove PBS on a corpse. He said, all I can look at is a dead body.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The same is true of mcs, the minimally conscious state. There's no way to diagnose it from a dead body. Yet it's Thogmartin's assessment of Terry's brain that more than anything else convinces even some who had supported the Schindlers that perhaps they had been on the wrong side.

[Lynn Vincent]

But that's emblematic of the received version of the Terri Schiavo story, the narrative that's taken root on the Internet and now on most podcasts that repeats assessments of Terri's condition uncritically.

[Bobby Schindler]

And so this essentially vindicates everything that.

[Lynn Vincent]

Michael Schiavo has been arguing in court for 15 years.

[Bobby Schindler]

It's confirmed what almost every doctor said in this story, that she's in a persistent vegetative state. She would not have had any voluntary function. Her brain was half the weight of.

[Father Frank Pavone]

A normal brain of a woman her size.

[Lynn Vincent]

People have woken up out of comas.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

But persistent vegetative state, I think it's like you're pretty far gone.

[Lynn Vincent]

Terry's responses to her family are well documented, including by Michael, but they were by nature subject to interpretation. Still, two aspects of Terry's behavior are not subjective, and both are corroborated by multiple witnesses. One, Terry could talk, and two, she could feel pain. In testimony to that 1992 malpractice jury, Michael said, and these are his exact words, she does feel pain. Numerous health care providers throughout the 1990s also noted Teri's pain during her menstrual cycle and gave her pain medications such as ibuprofen, all documented. Terri's medical records also show she responded verbally to pain. Remember? In 2002, nurse Eleanor Drexel, who was volunteering with Pat Anderson, discovered some of Terri's buried medical records. Those records noted Terri saying no and stop in response to painful rehab. This was shortly after she was diagnosed as being in pbs. Both pain and speaking should have ruled out a PBS diagnosis. As disturbing is the procession of people who both witnessed Terri's awareness and heard her speak. Nurses like Carla Sauer iyer in the mid-1990s, she would say mommy all the time, and then she would say the.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Word pain, which came out like pay.

[Lynn Vincent]

Then in the early 2000s, Tom Broderson.

[Bobby Schindler]

She whispered the word no as clearly as you or I could.

[Lynn Vincent]

And in March 2005, the day her feeding tube was removed, her head went.

[Linda Galupo]

Up and she goes, ah, just like that. I'm not kidding you. I saw it with my own eyes.

[Lynn Vincent]

In fact, if you look across the 15 year record, a pattern emerges. Terry consistently interacting with friends and family while shutting down in the presence of strangers. Across the written record, and according to eyewitnesses, Terri Schiavo was aware. But at the end of the day, attorney and bioethicist Wesley J. Smith says Terry's level of awareness doesn't actually have any bearing on the moral argument, but.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Because the, the rush and the, and I think the biased way that autopsy was reported, it was almost like, well, the Schindlers were saying, Terry's going to get up and tap dance and be able to go back to college and get a degree. Which is not what they were saying. And in terms of whether she could have improved or not, the Schindlers believed, and I'm with them 100%, it didn't matter she was human. It didn't matter whether she would be able to be improved or not improved. They wanted to love her and care for her for the rest of her life.

[Lynn Vincent]

Father Frank Pavone also had something to say about that.

[Bobby Schindler]

Her condition was hopelessly irreversible. So they said, well, then, if that's the medical judgment, let it be.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Oh, her brain was profoundly atrophied, so be it.

[Bobby Schindler]

But she did not die of atrophy of her brain. She died of an atrophy of compassion.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

On June 20, 2005, Michael lays Terri's ashes to rest in a quiet Cemetery overhung with Spanish moss. He had planned to bury her in the Schiavo family plot near Philadelphia. But once reporters caught wind of that, they staked out the graveyard with TV helicopters. So Michael picks a spot closer to home in Sylvan Abbey Memorial park in Clearwater. He chooses a site overlooking a small pond and orders a polished stone bench marked Schiavo. It's the same cemetery where season one of Lawless began, back in a thunderstorm in August 2021.

[Lynn Vincent]

Schiavo, Teresa Marie, beloved wife, born December 3, 1963, departed this Earth February 25, 1990. At peace March 31, 2005. And then, under a dove carrying an olive branch, I kept my promise.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The Schindlers don't attend Terry's burial ceremony. They're not invited.

[Bobby Schindler]

I think he actually put it in a press release, and so that's how we learned about it.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The inscription saying Terry departed this earth back in February 1990 feels like a slap in the face.

[Bobby Schindler]

And, you know, I was. My father and I were upset at the time. In fact, my dad. I don't think my dad visited this grave. And he passed away without visiting it. And I only visited it for the first time a few years ago.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

So none of the Schindlers are there. As Michael buries Terry's ashes in the middle of a downpour, thunder rolls and lightning splits the sky. A priest named Father Tony conducts the service under a tent. Michael would later claim that he added several of Terri's stuffed animals to the urn along with her wedding ring. That's strange, because in his 1993 deposition with Attorney Jim Sheehan, Michael testified that he melted down Terry's wedding band and turned it into a ring for himself.

[Lynn Vincent]

The Schindlers hold a memorial service of their own for terry. More than 800 people gather at the most Holy Name of Jesus Catholic Church in Gulfport. They fill the sanctuary and spill out into the courtyard. The Schindler spiritual advisor, Monsignor Malinowski, presides.

[Father Frank Pavone]

And may Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. Amen.

[Bobby Schindler]

Let us pray.

[Lynn Vincent]

Lord, hear our Father Pavone gives the homily.

[Bobby Schindler]

There is for the Christian joyful sorrow. There is for the Christian hopeful grief. That is what we experience here today. Why do we weep? We weep because we love. Why, at the same time, do we hope? We hope because we know that death does not have the last word.

[Lynn Vincent]

Mary feels a sense of peace over the whole gathering. As she listens, she feels close to Terry again.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Terry, you do not belong to death.

[Bobby Schindler]

You belong to Christ.

[Father Frank Pavone]

And so do we.

[Bobby Schindler]

Amen.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

In the following days, the Schindlers wrestle with their grief, struggling to find meaning in their loss and Terry's suffering.

[Linda Galupo]

I think that God wanted to wake up this country and said, hey, there's euthanasia out there, you know, and it's rearing its ugly head and I need somebody to help me. And I think he picked Terry because her feeding tube was stopped three times. And the first time, nobody really knew about it. The second time, it was getting a little bit more, you know, coverage. And then a third time, I mean, the whole world knew about Terry.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The Schindlers decide they can't go back to how things were before.

[Bobby Schindler]

Within a few weeks after Terry's passing them, we kind of looked at one another and said, now what? We just literally, we lost this horrible battle. And every one of us said, well, we can make. We'll do everything we can to make sure this never happens again. It can never happen again. It's anyone. And that's what we've dedicated our lives to.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

The schindlers reimagine their 2001 foundation. They want to create an organization that will help other families with loved ones in Terry's shoes. They set up headquarters for the Terry Schindler Schiavo foundation in St. Petersburg. The back room looks just like any other office. Desks, files, computers, a coffee maker. But the front room is different. Mary says it's a sort of shrine to Terry. It's adorned with photos, newspaper clippings, drawings, Defender of Life awards, a picture of Mother Teresa. Mary loves that room. She feels close to Terry there, too.

[Lynn Vincent]

Mary spends time in the office every day, answering calls and emails, offering practical and spiritual advice.

[Linda Galupo]

Well, we can help people that they email us or they'll call us. They don't know what to do about their loved ones. Some are in the condition that Terry was. Some are just, you know, handicapped. And they need help. They need a voice to speak for them. The handicapped and the disabled need a voice to speak for them, and they don't have a voice to speak.

[Lynn Vincent]

Michael pushes back. He demands the Schindler's Remove Terry's name from the name of the foundation. If they don't, he says he'll sue.

[Bobby Schindler]

And we respond and basically say, go ahead. I mean, that was essentially the response we gave him, and we never heard from him again. So.

[Lynn Vincent]

One year after Terri's death, Michael and the Schindlers both release memoirs about the Schiavo. Case. But for the most part, they're trying to move on. Here's an interview with Michael Schiavo on Fox News.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Have you had any contact or desire, any contact with the Schindler's family? With the Schindler family? No, I have no desire. No desire? There's nothing you'd want to say to them? No, I have nothing to say to them.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bob Schindler is fine with that.

[Bobby Schindler]

My feeling was that the only connection we had with Michael Chavez was Terry. And once we lost Terry, Michael Chavez went out of my life. And whatever he wants to do with himself, it really doesn't make any difference to me. I mean, I'm very serious about that.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

But Mike Tamaro says Bob Schindler was never the same after Terry's death. His health was already failing at the height of Terry's crisis. Now, Mike and CB Say the fight has gone out of him.

[Linda Galupo]

Mike and I felt as if after Terry died that up until that point, Bob had been. He had a purpose. He was driven. And after Terry died, it was just like he gave up. He didn't have the fight. And then his health, you know, became an issue. And I think we feel like it.

[Lynn Vincent]

Was just all part of it.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

He misses Terry. The playful banter they'd enjoyed throughout her life.

[Linda Galupo]

When she got married and she moved into her apartment with Michael, it was only about a little ways away from us. It was her first Christmas, and she called up her dad, and she told her dad that she was going to go get a Christmas tree. And she says, good. He said, when you get done, he said, call up and tell me what you got, what kind it was. Because he told her to get a balsam. So she called him up that night, and she was crying on the phone.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Terry had gotten the Christmas tree home, but when she went to put it up, the trunk was crooked. Never fear, though. Her dad had a solution.

[Linda Galupo]

Okay, so he said, look, he says, do this. Take it back. They have trunk straighteners, he said. And he says, if you take that back, they'll straighten your trunk out for you. Oh, she was so excited. She was so excited. So she did. She took it back and she got there. And when she found out that they don't do that, she was mad. But then she started laughing when she called him on the phone. But they did give her a new one. They really did give her a new one.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

But of all the memories, Bob says, the most vivid ones are from Terry's agonizing final days.

[Bobby Schindler]

Because I was in there every day, and I watched her deteriorate and there was nothing I could do about it. And that just tears my guts out.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Of all the Schindlers, Bob came under fire most in the media.

[Bobby Schindler]

This is where Chris Matthews said that my dad looked like he was enjoying himself because my dad was greeting the supporters and thanking them. And Chris Matthews took that as he was enjoying all the attention.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

After Terry's death, Bob's health went downhill quickly.

[Bobby Schindler]

And he told me that he was never able to forgive himself for not being able to do more as a father to stop this from happening to his daughter.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Bob died on August 29, 2009. He was 71.

[Lynn Vincent]

What did he ultimately die of, Bob?

[Linda Galupo]

His heart.

[Lynn Vincent]

Heart failure?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Uh huh.

[Lynn Vincent]

A broken heart?

[Linda Galupo]

Probably, probably.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

David Gibbs gave the eulogy at Bob's funeral.

[Bobby Schindler]

Bob Schindler to me was a real dad and be somebody that, you know, I hope someday somebody says David Gibbs stood and fought for his kids like Bob Schindler did for his.

[Lynn Vincent]

Politicians made a lot of grand gestures during Terry's final days. But after her death, legislators lost any sense of urgency on euthanasia and end of life care. Meanwhile, politicians who once stood with the Schindlers began to backpedal. During a presidential debate with Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama said his yay vote for the federal version of Terry's law was the biggest regret of his career.

[Bobby Schindler]

It wasn't something I was comfortable with, but it was not something that I stood on the floor and stopped. And I think that was a mistake. And I think the American people understood that that was a mistake.

[Lynn Vincent]

But many, many people went straight to mockery. As the five year anniversary of Terry's death approached, the animated sitcom Family Guy aired an episode featuring Terri Schiavo the musical.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Oh, oh, oh. Terri Schiavo is kind of a lifo. What a lively little bugger. Maybe we should just unplug her.

[Lynn Vincent]

When Mary sees the satire on her office computer, it reduces her to tears.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

George Felos had always made a careful distinction in his arguments. He never used the term euthanasia, never brought it into the picture. He framed Terry's case as all about autonomy and the right to refuse life prolonging treatment.

[Father Frank Pavone]

I've been extremely careful. And the courts, in adjudicating cases to withdraw medical treatment, are very careful to make the distinction of an active medical choice which may let nature take its course.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

But that slope proved as slippery as some Schindler allies had warned. Active euthanasia is killing a patient directly through a lethal injection or some other means. It's still banned in the United States. But physician assisted suicide is a slightly different thing. That's when a doctor prescribes a lethal drug and the patient voluntarily takes it. And both are gaining traction in the US and around the world. At the time of Terry's death, only Oregon allowed doctors to prescribe lethal drugs to patients, and then only patients with a terminal diagnosis. But since 2009, another 10 states have legalized that kind of prescription. So have Austria and Italy. And Switzerland has allowed assisted suicide since the 1940s. Active euthanasia is now legal in the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Colombia, Spain, New Zealand, Canada and Australia.

[Lynn Vincent]

Lobbyists push for these measures using words like compassion, choice, wise demise, and death with dignity. There are safeguards, but these are eroding over time. Canada passed its medical Aid and dying bill in 2016. It applied to people with a serious condition, disease or disability who were enduring unbearable physical or mental suffering that could not be relieved. Their death also had to be reasonably foreseeable. But later, the government revised the law to include people suffering solely from mental illnesses. These changes go into effect in 2024. Here's Bobby.

[Bobby Schindler]

Because that's what's happening in our nation today, that we are convincing people that based on someone's suffering is a reason to kill somebody. And we saw in Terry's case, we saw the propaganda that was occurring in Terry's case. Hollander, kind of this discussion on quality of life that we should be able to decide based on some of these quality of life who lives or does, and where does it end.

[Lynn Vincent]

Public attitudes are slowly shifting. Last year, a Statista poll of American views on assisted suicide found that 55% believe it's a morally acceptable practice. That's up from 49% in 2005. Here's Wesley Smith.

[Father Frank Pavone]

You're surrounded by forces that are really powerful, that are really seeking to push the most marginal and vulnerable among us out of the lifeboat.

[Lynn Vincent]

Nurse Eleanor Drexel believes it's all a symptom of a deeper spiritual problem.

[Linda Galupo]

And then there are people who have lost sight of true God, and they think what they're doing is godly because they're the gods. They're their own little gods.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

In December 2005, Michael Schiavo starts a political action committee. Terry Pack. He wants to organize voters against politicians who will interfere in people's personal lives. And he makes the living will a central point of his activism.

[Father Frank Pavone]

I think the country have learned something. I hope they say, remember the Terri Schiavo story.

[Bobby Schindler]

What do you want me to do.

[Father Frank Pavone]

If something happens to you and I'm hoping that's Terri's legacy.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Michael believes everyone over the age of 17 should put their medical wishes in writing so that what happened to Terry doesn't happen again. Other key figures from the Schiavo case echo that refrain.

[Father Frank Pavone]

George Felos this case demonstrates more than anything could demonstrate that if you don't take personal responsibility and make your wishes known and do that in a formal sense, then your wishes may not be carried out.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

And Judge Greer I think the real.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Positive impact of the Terri Schiavo case was that young, middle aged, old people, and I qualify as the latter, do know how important it is to write things down, making sure that there's nothing left for people to fight about.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

And for many Americans, that is Terry's legacy. They responded to the case by going out and getting their wishes written down. But Bobby Schindler isn't so enthusiastic about the living will specifically. He says people need to be careful. They understand just what it is they're signing and what terms like artificial life support really mean.

[Bobby Schindler]

But to put anything in writing nowadays, again, can be interpreted really in a way that's not going to be in your best interest. Some of the wording is very subjective. Some of the wording is deliberately to work into the favor of the hospitals or the doctors or the insurance companies. So your best to avoid put anything in writing and find a very reliable and trusting and a very strong and assertive healthcare agent. That's going to be your voice if you're ever in a situation where you can't speak for yourself.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

David Gibbs, of course, is an attorney, and he isn't a fan of the living will either. He points out that the first living will was created by the Euthanasia Society of America in 1972. It created a legal avenue for patients to declare a desire to die in case they were incapacitated. Gibbs also points out that it's hard for a living will to keep up with changes in technology. A patient might check a box on a form and accidentally rule out something that could one day save their life.

[Lynn Vincent]

Since season one, episode one of Lawless, we've been on a long journey with the major actors in Terry's story. You might be wondering, where are they now? On January 21, 2006, Michael Scheibo married Jodi Santones. They married in her Catholic church in the presence of their two children. Today, Michael lives in Clearwater and still works as a nurse in the county's correctional system. George Felos recently relocated from Florida and added a more spiritual element to his involvement in the Profession of Law.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Hi, this is George Filos. I'm here with an introduction to the guided meditation that follows.

[Lynn Vincent]

He teaches a course called Meditation for Lawyers. It's accredited by the Florida Bar for continuing legal Education. The website tagline reads, discover the wisdom that lies within you.

[Father Frank Pavone]

We all desire and sometimes crave the rest, the renewal, the relaxation, the peace that we find when we directly encounter our source, our core, our center. So this meditation is designed to help you do that. Now, there's nothing magical about it. There's nothing mystical about it.

[Lynn Vincent]

Philos takes lawyers through bodily relaxation, then an assessment of thoughts and sensations, then what he calls an exploration of the core of essence.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Does the sky care what shape the cloud is? Does it matter to the sky whether the cloud is gray or white?

[Lynn Vincent]

He talks often about the Schiavo case.

[Father Frank Pavone]

For me, on a personal level, one of the greatest challenges in this case was trying to remain open hearted and not hating the people who I was dealing with. Because it is, I'll be honest, religious fundamentalism gives me the willies. It's very difficult for me to relate to a mindset that relegates to hell everyone else who doesn't express their belief in God or relationship with spirit in a different way.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

In the legal community, Judge Greer garners widespread esteem. Colleagues say it's easy to feel like chopped liver when he's around. Robert Butterworth is a former state attorney general. Once he was giving a speech at a Florida bar conference in Ohio, and Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy was in the audience. But all of a sudden he got up and walked out. Kennedy later apologized to Butterworth. Don't take it personally, he said. I heard Judge Greer was outside and I just had to meet him. Greer receives 20 awards, almost all of them for his handling of the Schiavo case. The most significant is from the Florida Bar, the 2005 President's Award of Merit for his unswerving commitment to the radio, the rule of law, the independence of the judiciary, and the fundamentals of American democracy.

[Father Frank Pavone]

I've been retired since the end of December of 2010. I did serve 18 years as a judge, which in my humble opinion is the highest job anybody in the legal profession can have.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Greer stays quiet about the Schiavo case for years. No interviews, no comments to the the press. He does write a chapter in the 2018 book Tough Cases. And in 2021, he breaks his silence again to address St. Petersburg College.

[Father Frank Pavone]

I did the best I could and I. I have no real regrets on the case. I have regrets on how it played out. I think that was unfortunate, but the legal decision was, was not complicated and it was affirmed by every appellate judge that looked at the case. I think it critical that I was able to hold my ground because if I hadn't, if I'd have capitulated to either the legislative branch or the executive branch, it would, I think nationally would have weakened the ability of the courts to be perceived as a third co. Equal branch of government.

[Lynn Vincent]

Pat Anderson and Tom Broderson are still practicing law in St. Pete Beach. Pat hates talking about the Schiavo case, but she's never been able to shake it. I kept her alive for three and a half years. I didn't sleep through the night once during that time. I have blocked a lot of this because it is so painful to me in my. It was a slow motion judicial murder once. A bright eyed optimist, she's lost some of her faith in the judicial system. I had devoted virtually my entire adult.

[Linda Galupo]

Life to the practice of law and.

[Lynn Vincent]

Believed in the rule of law and that ultimately justice would prevail. And that was not the case in this matter. I don't feel that justice prevailed. After our interview, she's drained, emotionally exhausted. Tom is less visibly affected by the case, but he still feels it. All these years later, almost 20 years later and this still has a hold of you. How did that time with Terry change you?

[Bobby Schindler]

Well, I almost certainly am a little more cynical about the system than I started out.

[Lynn Vincent]

And what about your friendship with Terry? It sounds like you still carry that with you.

[Bobby Schindler]

Well, sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I had an impact on a little piece of her life. She had an impact on a big piece of mine.

[Lynn Vincent]

David Gibbs still keeps in touch with the Schindlers. He has Bob Schindler's birthday marked on his calendar.

[Bobby Schindler]

Mary and I talked about on the day Terry passed and on the day of Bob's birthday every year for a few minutes and reminisce and talk.

[Lynn Vincent]

Gibbs knows that's unusual for a lot of attorneys. When a case is over, so is the relationship.

[Bobby Schindler]

You know, they call litigators bathtub brains. You pull the bottom out drains and fill it back up with the next case.

[Lynn Vincent]

But this was different.

[Bobby Schindler]

I mean it forever marked all of us in, in different ways.

[Lynn Vincent]

A few years ago, Suzanne embarked on a new adventure setting sail aboard a catamaran in the Virgin Islands.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

I actually chef on this boat with my husband who's the captain of this boat. So we really pretty much take people out on week long vacations where I chef and he captains after Bob Schindler's death, Mary lived by herself in a Florida condo for a time.

[Linda Galupo]

I liked it there. It was fine. There was people, all kinds of people. You know, I made friends with people. Bobby used to come down a lot. Suzanne did too, you know, to visit and stay with me.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Later, Mary moved in with Bobby until Bobby decided to sell his house.

[Linda Galupo]

Bobby got married. Suzanne moved to the Virgin Islands, you know, and here I am alone. So my brother decided to sell his house up there in Corning. And he came down and stayed with me for a while. And then they decided they were going to live in Florida. They didn't want to stay in Corning anymore. It was too cold. So he asked me if I wanted to live with them and I said yes. And that's why, because that I didn't know where I wanted to be. And I still don't. All I knew is I didn't want to be alone.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

She isn't almost. Three years ago, Mike and Sarah CB Tamaro moved to a sprawling farm outside Dothan, Alabama. Mary went too. Now she spends her days on 42 acres of rural farmland. Horses in the pastures, cows at the fence. The property is laced with woods and meadows and dotted with barns, a wood shop and chicken coops.

[Linda Galupo]

I got an egg here.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

It's quite a change from life in St. Pete. Life is simple here.

[Linda Galupo]

Oh my goodness. Every day, 21. The highest is 27.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Every morning, she and CB head to the hen house to gather eggs.

[Lynn Vincent]

We did a lot of our reporting for this podcast in 20, 21 and 22, but I sat down with Bobby last week just to check in. Today he's still fighting for the medically vulnerable. He's president of his family's foundation, now called the Terri Schiavo Life and Hope Network. One question I want to ask you is, what has it been like for you participating in this podcast project?

[Bobby Schindler]

Well, that's a good question. It's brought back a lot of memories, come flooding back listening to the episodes, things that I did not remember, things that brought up a lot of emotion. It's interesting listening to some of the season two so far and listening to Congress getting involved in the legislature. It's almost like you think there could be a different outcome. You kind of get caught up in all the excitement.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bobby was a college student when Terry suffered her brain injury. After graduating from Florida State University, he became a high school math and science teacher. He loved the work, but advocating for Terry changed the entire course of his.

[Bobby Schindler]

Life doing this non profit work. With Terry's experience, it was an easy decision to make because something I didn't realize during Terry's case that I did as my family went through it is there's a lot of families that are dealing with. With a lot of terries out there trying to protect them and care for them and treat them, and they're being told no, and they need help.

[Lynn Vincent]

Now there's a new venture in the making.

[Bobby Schindler]

We've been working with Catholic Healthcare International. We've been working with them for five years now. They have a vision to replicate Padre Pio's Saint Padre Pio.

[Lynn Vincent]

Padre Pio was a Catholic priest who started a hospital in Italy.

[Bobby Schindler]

It's known for its research to replicate that and bring it here in the States. That would be in a little place called Howell, Michigan. He has dedicated a part of it to start a rehabilitation center for the brain injury. It's going to be called Terri Schiavo Home for the Brain Injured. So we're very excited about this. It's really been something my father had always wanted to start. Establish rehabilitation center in Terry's memory to help people like Terry, those that have been given up on, those that are told that they can't improve, to bring them to the center and hopefully help them when others give up on them.

[Lynn Vincent]

So what about the concept of forgiveness in this situation? I know you have to have wrestled with that.

[Bobby Schindler]

Well, yeah. Yes. I mean, forgiveness is always helpful when the other person is also seeking forgiveness. In this case, I guess it would be Michael and some of the other players that were responsible for Terry's death. But you have to live knowing that probably not going to happen. I try to make them part of my prayers. It's difficult because I think of just the pain. I mean, when I think about that, I can't tell you emotionally how that affects me. When I think of my mom and my dad, it's a very difficult process. And you really do need God's graces to come to terms with that.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bobby is glad that Terry's story has allowed his family to help others. But as important, Bobby says, is the way Terry helped him also.

[Bobby Schindler]

Lynn. I really wasn't much of a practicing Catholic or really much of a Christian at the time that my sister's case started. I thought I was. It was only through her experience and subsequently the experiences that I've had since her death that have really made me or helped me understand the importance of the relationship I need to have with Christ. Because I wasn't living that kind of life before Terry's case. I oftentimes say, when I speak that our family and me and everything we could to save Terry. And unbeknownst to me, she was working.

[Lynn Vincent]

Bobby struggled here. It took him a moment to find his voice again.

[Bobby Schindler]

I don't know what she was thinking, but maybe she was working knowing that I need to be saved. At least she got me back on, hopefully, the path to someday be with her again.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Lawless is reported and written by Grace Snell, Lynn Vincent and me, Anna Johansen Brown. Our voice actors this season were Joy o' Regan and Daniel Paladin, legal counsel from Jonathan Bailey. Paul Butler is our executive producer and sound engineer. Our production assistant is Lillian Hammond. Nick Eicher is our chief content officer. Music by Will Sheehan.

[Father Frank Pavone]

In my time of dying? I don't want nobody to mourn? Have my loved ones take me home? And oh, my dying arms? Well, well, well?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

So I can die easy?

[Father Frank Pavone]

Well, well, well? So I can die easy?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Well, well, well? So I can die easy?

[Father Frank Pavone]

Jesus gonna make up my dying.

[Anna Johansen Brown]

Lawless is a production of World Radio. Special thanks to everyone who gave their time for interviews and thanks to all of you for joining us this season.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Well, down here we've got drought and famine and the river's running dry?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

But I heard in the kingdom of.

[Father Frank Pavone]

Heaven the river's flowing with the water of life?

[Lynn Vincent]

Now I'm going up to live with my father?

[Father Frank Pavone]

Wanna get there as soon as I can? And I left my troubles down yonder? Hallelujah, I made it to the promised land? Well, well, well? Cause now I'm free? Well, well, well? I've been set free forever?

[Anna Johansen Brown]

I'm free?

[Father Frank Pavone]

Jesus gonna make up my d.