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- [00:04]
A
You are listening to a special weekend edition of the World and everything in it. Thanks for joining us. I'm Lindsay Mast. Over the last few years, the Oscar winners for best animated short film have explored topics such as war, school shootings and mental health. This year, one of the nominees has a decidedly gospel focus. It's called forevergreen and it's about a bear who experiences the loving care of a giant redwood tree, but is lured away by some tasty trash and strays into danger. The directors of the film spent five years making it. Their team of 200 volunteers worked nights and weekends to finish it. The product is beautiful and now it could take home the industry's highest award. I had the chance to talk to directors Nathan Engelhardt and Jeremy Spears as well as musician Josh Garrels who contributed to forevergreen. We talk a bit of shop and a lot about the film Faith Journey. The film took them on that conversation in just a moment.
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B
Additional support comes from water's edge. For 75 years, water's edge has existed to financially empower donors and ministries to transform lives with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Water's Edge Kingdom Investments offers investors 4.55% APY on 13 month term investments. These investments provide the funds needed to make church building loans to growing churches across the country. Details@watersedge.com invest I don't know if you're
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C
familiar with SD Smith has written some kind of kids preteen books, the Green Ember series. I got five kids. So those books have kind of been beloved in our household. And me and SD had kind of struck up a friendship via Instagram DMs as that goes these days. I don't think I've never met him in person, but friendly. We're friendly via emails and texts, you
- [02:09]
D
know, a very 20, 26 way.
- [02:11]
C
Yeah. So he texted me at some point like, hey, I have some friends who are working on an animated short in parentheses. You know, they work for Disney, Pixar, which there is. I talked to my wife about this. Like when dealing with decision making, aesthetic culture and how that intersects with like the Lord ministry calling where the intersection points because there is like I am a little choosy just because simply we don't have all the time in the world. You know, we only have so much margin in our life so we have to make our decisions carefully. You know, especially again with five kids and being, you know, an entrepreneur and kind of self produced, I don't have all the time in the world. So you kind of choose where you can invest yourself, you know. So with that said, on the front end, someone works for Disney Pixar, you know, and they have, you know, SD's like, yeah, they've been on Zootopia and Frozen 2. And you're like, oh, okay. You know, I've got five kids. I've watched all those many times. I'm familiar with the work, you know, that is in someone's favor because from the jump, there's a good probability I could trust the like craft level of these guys, you know, but then that wouldn't be all. So then we sat down over the phone and talked about it, you know what I mean? And the fact that it's volunteer based, no budget, so I waited in at first, it's almost doing something on spec a little bit like, okay, is this going to gain traction? Because there's things I've committed to in the past that don't come to fruition. And that's part of the creative world. Things begin and don't always end. So I waded in with these guys, but loved their heart, which I think is what kept me connected for the almost upwards of six years of time, investment and care that it took for all of us to see this thing to completion. But on the front end, just feeling an easy connection with Nathan and Jeremy, they're both really encouraging. And I think where I'm at in my creative vocation too is like, man, I want there to be more to the things that I do than just trying to entertain or put content out because it's the right time in the schedule to put more content out so that we can keep interest levels up. Creative life can turn into a rut if you let it. And so more and more, increasingly as I grow old, sort of the ministry calling aspect of being a creative, it was in line with where I was at anyway, which is at times wanting to almost be, I don't know if I'd say more explicit, but their heart of. I'd say evangelism mixed with fine craft. When you can find those two things merging. I think there's a reason we love CS Lewis and these guys because it was like guys who are great at their craft of storytelling but aren't trying to like guise the direction they're leading you. They actually want to show you something but do it in a way that is effective and not hokey or schlocky, you know what I mean? And so I think on the front end, I just had an intuitive sense that I could trust these guys and this was worth the time and kind of the potential way out there somewhere is this might be effective, this could be fruitful, you know what I mean? If we can have kids or adults like begin to understand this storyline, if I can be part of helping the light bulb to go on and then understand why the cross, why self sacrifice. I was on YouTube the other day just looking at the film and saw one of the top comments. This person wrote a whole diatribe like, I hate this bear. And we were talking about it when I was in California last weekend. It's like they don't realize they're saying they hate the sin, you know what I mean? They're like, the bear is supposed to be us. We need salvation. You know what I mean? And this person wasn't seeing necessarily the grand picture, but they were saying, I hate that bear. The tree was so kind to it and it just went for the trash. And we're like, yeah, that's what the story's about.
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D
You know, the bear definitely hits pretty close to home. I kind of hate the bear too. So clearly a lot of heart from all of you behind it. You wind up working on this project nights and weekends for five years. 200 volunteers. How did you keep people, including yourselves, from burning out before you hit the finish line on this?
- [06:52]
E
Oh, my goodness. Jeremy and I would constantly need to be encouraging each other. I mean, they say these films take a village. It does. That's where the 200 volunteers come in to make it look as awesome as it did. But even behind the scenes, Jeremy and I, we would be praying every week, not only for ourselves, but for the crew. You know, just because we wanted this to have an impact. It wasn't just the quality of the product, it was also the quality in which we made it that we tried to be very prayerful about and intentional about. And there were times where it was very difficult. It was difficult in our families, especially our wives, you know, while we're doing our full time jobs. And then they would be holding the fort while we're trying to do a thing or whatever and not try to shirk our, you know, fatherly or husbandly duties of, you know, and so trying to balance that was very difficult. So Jeremy and I, we've, we've had many conversations to encourage each other, to lift each other up. I don't know how people do this solo because it is so difficult and demanding. But I will just say this one thing in addition to what I've already said is that we couldn't pay people in monetary like a value there, but we could pay them in inspiration. So we were always trying to find ways to inspire people because we found out that there's really two modes to a donated volunteer based project. There's inspiration and perspiration. And whenever it becomes perspiration and actual work, it was difficult to get folks motivated. You know, I mean, who wants to after a long day's work, then have dinner with their family and then turn on their computer again and do more work for free? That's a tough pill to swallow. But if you can inspire the crew, give them a challenge, show them an incredible piece of artwork. Hey, check out this demo Josh and Isaac just sent over. Isn't that amazing? Can't you hear the soundscape coming together? Do you know what I mean? There was ways that we tried to motivate the crew and, and keep them inspired and continuously seeing the vision of this thing completed. And that was a full time job on its own, just trying to motivate and inspire the crew. But we had to do that even for ourselves.
- [09:15]
D
Well, I want to get a little, switch gears a little bit into some of the, I guess, artistic decisions behind some of what you did. So there's no dialogue in this film, which means the visuals have to carry the entire weight of the gospel message. So, Jeremy, I guess I'll direct this one at you to start. What sorts of decisions look different when you're working on such a rich story and there are no words?
- [09:43]
F
Well, okay, a few things. So working in story all these years, there's something that doesn't always happen. But if you can get your film down to a simple image that everyone can go, that's it, that's what our film is about, then it makes it a whole lot easier for everybody because a really, really simple visual. And so with this film, again, I believe God handed us this and said, go, go make this film, you guys. And so that was really helpful because we're so used to drawing expressions and, and talking things through. But it's like again, if you have that visual that you're aiming for, then every single acting choice that the characters are making, it's all pointing to that. So when, when the bear crushes the sprig that they've been growing together and there's a moment where. And this was the animator who, who thought this through and said, I think that he needs to have a bit of a tantrum. And then he was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna do it. Just like a little kid. He's like, oh, I'm gonna do this, dad. And then crushes it. And then the second that he crushes it, there's a moment of realization of, like, I shouldn't have done that. And then there's another moment of realization where he's like, I don't care. And then he walks and he walks beyond. And then. And then the scene right after that, it was. I remember this clearly. It was the thing with Nathan and I, where we were like, maybe the bear should not even look back at the time tree because that would show that he's not concerned about this. So it's. It's decisions like that that are all pointing to this, because once you get to this image, you have to have all these setup beats. And I. I personally, as a story person, I just. I geek out about that, like, whenever I watch a movie. That's really well thought out. It's. It's just. It's so fun to watch.
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D
Yeah, I had. I had a question for you, Josh. I want to know about what's going through your head as you compose for a project like this and what were your goals musically.
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C
Yeah, yeah. As I've thought about it, I think it was a good fit. Like, it's the first time I've done something like this. You know, I've done, like, really, really minor, small soundtrack things in the past for, like, surf films and stuff, which don't carry the emotional weight of this, you know, more vibe driven, you know. But having people ask me about, you know, the process of this, I was able to reflect on it, and I hadn't really thought about it. Maybe because it's intuitive. That music, to me, all the albums I put out, the songs I create, they all, almost without fail, start with, like, a feeling, which to me is connected to, like, an internal soundtrack, you know, that's how I approach music. So actually approaching a story without words is pretty. Makes sense to me in some ways. So as they're filling me in on the story beats and then giving me kind of like quick storyboards and inspirational art, those all have, you know, feelings and impressions attached to them. So then I take those and kind of enter into the story, and then I start exploring the soundscape that I feel like is connected to this, you know, so it's taking place and sort of like, for those of us who live in the Midwest and East coast, this is like the west, you know, it's Yosemite and sequoias and redwoods, and to me, even, sound wise, there's touch points for composition through American history that Is the West, like Copeland and these others, you know, so even in the beginning of the film, when the bear's looking over the edge of the cast, we have like these horns that come in. Duh, duh. Which to me felt like that feels like Copeland or last the Mohicans or something. Cause in my mind it's actually connected to like Americana. It's cinematic, It's Americana, but with the Americana introducing instruments like banjos and mandolins and, you know, dobros and these very sort of Appalachian. American folk instruments, you know. So the merger of folk with cinematic would have been kind of the palette that I was playing with. But then again, yeah, like interpreting how's this soundtrack making me feel? And then trying my best to like attach that soundscape to the images, which for me was really fun. I really enjoyed it.
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D
I want to talk a little bit about the most powerful scene in the film where the tree steps in. The tree doesn't just fix the bear.
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F
It.
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D
It gives its life.
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A
Why was it important for you?
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D
Cause I'm not sure in your drawing that that even really shows. You know, it's a simple line drawing, and I get that. But it doesn't show the actual cost that the giver has to give. Your film absolutely makes you understand the cost that the tree is paying. So tell me a little bit about why that was so important to draw out in forevergreen.
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C
I think that's the.
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E
That's the climax. That's the proposition which is there at the end with the Bible verse that no greater love has anyone. This. That one laid down his life for his friends. And that is quite literally him laying down his life for his friend. And of course, that's a. There's an allegorical sense to that and what Christ had done for us. But what parent wouldn't do that for their own child, you know? And so I think it functions on multiple levels in that way. But why we needed to do it every setup and payoff. This was the payoff of all payoffs. It's like this is what we were building towards. And so, you know, Jeremy always talks about this being kind of a beat by beat representation of how one gets saved. You know, it's not the gospel. It is a picture of Christ's likeness and sacrificial love. That should hopefully point you to the gospel. But without Christ, there is no gospel. But I just think that for this, we definitely wanted you to feel that this unmerited, undeserved grace that was being extended and for the audience to feel the weight of that price. I mean, the eternal picture and the Christ picture is, of course. I mean, he bore the wrath that we deserved so that we can not only go free, but to be with him forever. And so that. That is the picture you talked about the price. And it's an inadequate picture of the spiritual picture that we're aiming to kind of be faithful to. But at least there's that great moment where the bear has to make that choice of what is he going to do? And that was a moment. It was animated by Brendan Gottlieb. He's a wonderful brother. And we asked him, we said, make us feel that this is a choice. He's gonna have to. He also did the scene that we mentioned earlier where he steps on it and, you know, has that internal monologue where, I shouldn't have done that. I don't care. So he did some really amazing scenes. And so here's this one where he's thinking about if he should drop his trash or not. But, you know, the flame is now on the tree. He sees that, and he's reflecting on that. And at some point, you've heard this possibly said, where the same sun that melts the wax hardens the clay, and that is the message of the gospel, hardens some hearts, but it also softens it. That same sun, that same message. And so our hope was that in this moment, that fire was meant to soften the clay. And we were like, we want to see that clay get soft in this shot. And for him to see what he's done. I mean, that was the point. That was the whole moment.
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F
That last part you said, nathan, it's just. It's so true. And again, we started off with Nathan and I are that bear character. So it's personal to us, and it's our story. And then we go, hey, Josh, this is your story, too. Great. All right, now all three of us have the same thing. And then we realize, no, no, no, it's everybody. Everybody is. Everybody understands what, like, this bag of chips luring us away could mean. Everyone understands what it's like to go through these emotions. I was just going to say this. When we started this project, there was actually another verse that was at the top of our minds, which is Romans 5, 8, that God demonstrates his love for us and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And so it was just. It was this idea that while we were considering God our enemy, that he still did that. And so then going to the verse that we have at the film now so that it's really that, you know, God considers us his friend. We consider God our enemy. He doesn't change. We are the ones who are always changing and fluctuating and, you know, confused. And so it's just such an amazing thing when we can talk about his wonderful grace towards us. And it's something that, again, not everyone thinks the same way that we do about all this. You know, we understand that, that people are. Who are maybe listening to this podcast, they don't have the same experience with God that we do with Christ in their hearts. But the truth is, is that we all appreciate that idea because we understand what it's what it's like to hate those who we disagree with or to be upset with those who are different, you know, are mean or whatever it is. And yet God goes so much further, and he says, you are that, and I love you. So for us, it's like, if you love us that much, how much more can we love those around us?
- [19:57]
D
You all are highly successful artists, and I look at Exodus, which paints artists as having almost a certain kind of wisdom when they're talking about building the tabernacle. So I want to ask you, Jeremy, how do you think about the relationship between the creative giftings God has given you and the types of projects you choose to do? Or maybe, as Josh put it earlier, how you spend your time? I think it's very easy to think about, I'm giving my money back to God. That's a very tangible thing. But he's given certain people creative giftings. And it sounds like you guys have grappled with how to use that. So I want to ask you, Jeremy, what is that relationship? How do you grapple with that? And where do you come down on how to use the gifts God has given you?
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F
I really identified with what you said, Josh. When I'm making a wood carving or when I'm working on a story, I want it to be worthy of my time. And I think that when you start out, you know, you're new and you're willing to give way more than you probably should because you just want. You're just. You're hungry to learn your craft. But over time, and I've been at this 18 years now, and so when we talk about wisdom, it's like, I think I've just kind of. I've gained wisdom because I've learned from the best of. The best of how to do things. And I've taken little. Little bits. I've taken some from this call, even from. From my colleagues here of just these little nuggets of truth and inspiration. And you lodge those away and they're, they're there and then you just can utilize them. It's like they're tools.
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E
And.
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F
And so, yeah, to me, it's like, I think over time I know that getting into this project, I had become very quiet about my faith. Over the years I've become more focused about maybe the craft or just when I'm working on something, obviously at work. And it's like, I just, I don't usually share my faith. I don't talk about it. And there's all the same usual reasons, which is like, oh, I don't want to offend anybody, or I don't want to make anyone feel awkward or whatever it is. And what was so wonderful about this is that we created a thing together that created those conversations and it allowed for just an easy conversation to be. To happen of like, oh, that character is me. This is my story. It could be as simple as that, you know, but we could go a little further and say, I am that prodigal son. Here's the prodigal son story. Have you ever heard of that before? And so I had spent all this time making films where I don't talk about my faith, and all of a sudden I'm making films where I'm talking about my faith. So that's the thing that I think I've walked away with is just to say to everyone out there, like, just share your faith. God will place conversations in your path. You just have to listen, you have to find those moments and then act. You know, when God says go, you should go. And it is scary, but he's going to make it a lot easier once you go. And you're going to. You're going to get to the end of it and you're going to be like, this is so cool. Like, this is so cool. We're talking about this now after the fact, right? So it's kind of like a gift that he's given.
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D
So, Josh or Nathan, did you want to chime in with further thoughts on that?
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C
Well, what was coming to my mind listening to Jeremy is I think I know enough people in creative spheres that you could be anywhere on the spectrum. I've known artists who are like faith based artists who have kind of like slowly transitioned to, I want to be charitable in how I say this, but like shying away from being open about those things, which I've not seen that be super fruitful, like just even practically for their following to like, shrink back, I guess is how I would put it. And then I've known some, like Jeremy who. It's almost like a coming out of the closet in the public space of like, this is what's most important in my heart, in the interior space of my life. It's God's led me to a threshold where now I have to step out openly with this, you know, And I think that is like, it takes courage. If your life and vocation haven't necessarily been airing those things to all of a sudden choose to begin sharing those things does take courage, you know. And then you have this other person on the spectrum who's been sharing faith based things for years and years and years, and it actually becomes a little saccharine and hollow because it's just what you do. But it's not connected maybe to a thriving interior space with the Lord. So I think wherever people's hearts are at, I think the Lord does call us to communicate the gospel, which is essentially like his rescue plan for mankind. And so he gives us all these ways through acts of service, through making a story or writing a song in our case, which seems like a funny way to communicate something so potentially life changing. But he gives us all these tools and we each have to cross this threshold in our own heart of like, what are we gonna do with it? You know, what are we gonna do with it? And as I kind of alluded to earlier, I've been making faith based work my entire, like, sort of adult career. But there was a period where I feel like there was almost for me, I was too sensitive to what's happening in the general spheres of creativity, Pitchfork magazine, and what's happening just in the general marketplace and not necessarily trying to position myself, but yet being maybe hyper conscious of that. And like Jeremy was saying, hyper conscious of. Well, I don't want to say it that way because that could offend. I don't want to say it this way. I don't want to be too fast forward this way. But over time, I had a lack of fulfillment. Someone at the wrap party was asking me about this and it just dawned on me as I was talking to this lady, you know, man, like creating work unto the Lord, however that looks in our life, is the most fulfilling thing one can do. Because if you're doing it from the space where like, lord, I know you, I want to honor you, show me how to do this, it actually brings fulfillment because you're interacting with the living God, I think he blesses it and his life fills You. And it's almost regardless of the outcome, whether or not it won an Oscar or not, it's like there's a fulfillment in interacting with the living God and doing kind of what he created us to do. And I think I've experienced kind of creating apart from that. And it's not fulfilling. You know, it's. It can be successful on paper and get you a lot of money and get you some acclaim, but if there's a sense of like I did this sort of detached from the Lord and separate from him a little bit, it's not fulfilling. Yeah. So to partner with the Lord again, whatever that looks like, it's going to look like a multiplicity of expressions. It actually comes with the life of God and fulfillment in your craft, which I'm hungry for that. I want to live a good life, man. And I want to like have the fulfillment of walking with the Lord, you know. So I think those, I think I'm speaking for Nathan and Jeremy here where I think all of us were hungry to like partner with him. And there's a certain excitement and fulfillment and life that is connected to that, you know, and it's, it's worth any potential embarrassment or someone snubbing their nose because it's too on the nose Christian or something. Well, yeah, but it's also like as Nathan said, this person over here was wax and they've been softened and they're over here weeping and this person over here is over there saying it's too Christian and snubbing their nose and like, let those chips land where they will. But you see this person weeping over here and it's like, that's why we did it, you know, What Josh had
- [28:24]
E
just said was exactly what happened in my heart. And I think during the making of this film he revealed that to me. That was something that I had never really experienced before. As someone on the spectrum that Josh said is not doing these things specifically, you know, either a faith based thing or being more open with my faith or, you know, that. And that was a new feeling. It was a new sensation. That was. It's exactly what Josh said. It was life giving. It was more inspiring than I feel like I have felt in a long time. And I feel like I'm very fulfilled creatively, you know, so like to feel this extra layer of blessing from the Lord, it's powerful.
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D
Have you rehearsed a speech if you win?
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E
I think everyone has to. Everyone has to have something prepared.
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C
They even.
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E
So we went to the Oscar luncheon and so, you know, At. During one portion of it, they talked about having things prepared, and it's like, have something ready to say. And they. And they gave kind of some advice. It's like, it's not. It's. You'll be very glad that you did. Don't worry. They're even saying, don't worry about thanking everyone. Just say the thing that you want that's on your heart, and just make sure to say that you got 45 seconds. So they were really encouraging everyone in that room. Room to be prepared. I think we could appreciate that, you know, even on a spiritual level, where it's like, you know, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. Right, right. And so I think that Jeremy and I have to start to kind of think about that thing that we want to say and could absolutely use prayer, because we want to make sure that we honor those 200 volunteers, and, you know, we give glory to God for what he's done. And so those are like, kind of the bullet points of the things that we would love to say if given the opportunity from the Lord. And actually, I would just add that, you know, we've had many opportunities across this whole production to kind of think and reflect on how things have been done in the past. I mean, we've been in the industry over 20 years. You know, each for Jeremy and I and Josh has been making music probably the same amount of time. So it's like we've had opportunities to kind of go, how would I do that? How would I say that? And I think that has been sort of the anthem of how we've operated to make sure, what I said earlier, that it's not just the quality of what we make, but how we make it, being able to reflect on that. And I think that is being intentional. And as believers, I think we really need to be intentional about everything that we do. Whatever your hand finds right to do, do with all your might. So I think we need to do it. Whether we eat or drink, we do it all the glory of God. You know, there's this element of going from the most basic mundane things of life to obviously. So if we're supposed to do that with eating and drinking and, you know, the everyday common things, how much more so when we're in our vocations or trying to do whatever we're trying to do. And so I think Jeremy and I have given a great amount of thought on intentionality towards how we can do every part of this process from very beginning to very end unto the glory of God. But also in a way that reflects those things that I mentioned of honoring God, but also honoring the crew for all this wonderful work that they have produced.
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A
So for those listening who want to see this beautiful story for themselves, where
- [31:51]
D
can they find the film and follow the forevergreen journey?
- [31:54]
E
Yeah, well, you can watch it right now for a limited time on YouTube. You can also watch it on our website forevergreenfilm.com where the YouTube link is embedded. For those who are in Europe and beyond overseas. If you have Canal plus, it is playing on Canal plus for the next three years and there'll be various other festivals that we're still in. But also we just partnered with Roadside Attraction who'll be taking the nominated films around the US to select cities. So make sure to check that out in theaters. In theaters.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Nathan Englehart and Jeremy Spears are the directors of the Oscar nominated short film Forever Green.
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D
Josh Garrels contributed the music.
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A
Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us.
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F
Thank you.
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E
Thank you.
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C
My love will always be forever with. My love will always be forever.
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B
Additional support comes from Water's edge offering investors 4.55% APY on 13 month term investments that help growing churches across the country. Watersedge.com invest.
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A
You've been listening to a special weekend edition of the World and Everything in It. I'm Lindsay Mast. Thank you so much for listening. We'd love to hear from you. You can email us@editorng.org that's editorng.org and if you enjoyed this episode, the best way to help ensure that we're able to tell more stories and do more interviews like this one is to share it with someone. Thanks so much. We'll see you Monday.