A (3:02)

Well, the harms with social media and smartphone usage have been pretty well documented. But I'd love to hear from your research what you see as, let's just say maybe three ways social media and smartphones can damage family life in particular.

B (3:16)

So I would say the first is that the unfortunate reality is the technology is addictive by design and it really caves children in on themselves and kind of turns them inward, away from their families. And even a short amount of time, time is incredibly addictive. And this is one of the things I explain in the book. Why, why do screen time limits not work for interactive screen technologies like smartphones, like tablets, is because even a small amount of time is incredibly craving inducing and kind of compulsion inducing that the child will always want more and more time. Because the brain science level, this dopamine is spiking in the brain at an artificially high level, but as soon as they come off the device, it crashes below baseline into a deficit which incentivizes them to just get back on. They like, will constantly crave it. And so the design itself, regardless of what content is on the screen, is really addictive. And that then turns children inwards and away from their families, even if it's a time limited amount. The other kind of challenge I've seen with the screen time limits and parental controls is a lot of parents said they thought that by giving the smartphone they would remove some of the friction in the parent child relationship that the child was always begging them for a smartphone. Um, but what they said they didn't realize was that giving the smartphone was going to result in 40 new battles a day. Because now they just described there's much more friction in the relationship because they're constantly trying to say, hey, put your phone down, like, get off the app. And trying to actually stick to the time limits and parental controls is very difficult and has actually introduced a lot more conflict and a lot more tension into family life. And then the final thing I will say is just the nature of the platforms, like when you hand a child a smartphone, you're inviting the entire, entire world into the task of parenting that child with you, that they can really access anyone or anything on the Internet. There are thousands of portals inside a smartphone to The Internet. I think parents don't realize even innocuous apps, like an educational game, has an in app browser to the Internet. And strangers, complete strangers online, can reach out to them even through those kind of more mundane apps. And so the problem is then total strangers are conveying their worldview, which may not be the same as a parent's to your children. They can come across really dangerous content, bad actors, and just people opposed to your style of parenting and can really undermine parental authority in the home and again, come between parent and child, this kind of whole world of online influencers that then children start taking in. And so those are kind of the three main threats I would see is the addictive design, the potential to undermine a parent's just authority in the home, and then just that parent child relationship actually having a lot more tension over the constant battles around the devices.

A (6:04)

You say a problem with smartphone technology is too many hits of dopamine, but that they also introduce a new problem of too little oxytocin. Explain that contrast.

B (6:14)

I actually think the brain science is some of what has been the most compelling to me as to why these devices are so bad for kids. So they get this, this hit of dopamine, which is like a pleasure neurotransmitter in the brain that's released when you do something that's pleasurable. And so this is being released by social media or even by smartphones. Every time they get a text or a notific or a new like or they see a new video, it releases that dopamine. But the dopamine doesn't actually produce lasting satisfaction. These artificially high levels of dopamine they're getting all the time kind of puts their brain in a chronic dopamine deficit state. And they need kind of ever increasing levels of dopamine to even feel like happy or experience pleasure. And so real world activities that used to be pleasurable start to not create that feeling of happiness or pleasure for them, like going on a walk with a family member or seeing a sunset. So they become desensitive, sensitized to pleasures in the real world. They're also not getting oxytocin, which is a really important other neurotransmitter hormone that bonds us to humans. And so it bonds a mother with her baby, it bonds husband and wife, it bonds friends. And it's released by eye contact and physical touch and actually physically being with people in real life. And so they are getting these artificially high levels of dopamine that don't produce satisfaction, just creating a constant Craving for more that then, over time, desensitizes them to real world pleasures. And at the same time, they're in this oxytocin desert where they're not getting that critical hormone. And what happens then is their friendships online are extremely shallow because that oxytocin really creates deep bonds of trust. And. And so they're not experiencing that type of relationship that we were made for. And so then that's why we have this really epidemic of loneliness among teens today, is that they're more connected than ever, but they're incredibly lonely because they're not getting that oxytocin that they need.

A (8:08)

One thing that I found kind of jaw dropping in the book was what you found out about the physical toll on children's eyes.

B (8:15)

Yes, this was probably the most shocking thing to me because I've done like four years of research. I feel like I knew a lot about the mental health effects and the brain harms, but what I didn't realize, and I learned this from talking to an ophthalmologist, that she was seeing kids coming into her practice struggling with chronic dry eye. And these are eight or nine year olds. And it's usually a condition seen in like 70 or 80 year olds that your eye glands that release this oil that helps lubric your eyes, they kind of dry up as you age. And so she could not understand why these 8 or 9 year olds had completely lost their oil glands. And she realized, just through, you know, kind of ruling out any other types of factors, no autoimmune conditions, that they were just watching a lot of screens. And she realized they're not blinking enough while they're watching a screen. And she thinks that the screen is doing something to that brain blink connection. She would even tell them, hey, can you blink your eye? And they would say, I blinked. And she would say, no, you actually didn't. Your eyes did not move. And so she was saying then that what happens is if kids aren't blinking enough, those oil glands dry up. That like milking a cow, when you blink, it releases the oil from the glands, but if it's not released, it just dries up over time. And now, unfortunately, what that means is these kids will struggle with dry eye the rest of their lives. They'll always have to externally with drops be lubricating their eyes. And so kids are entering life with a chronic health condition. They'll always have to manage just because they were watching screens too much.

A (9:39)

You found that smartphones, though, don't just negatively impact the user, but they also Work outward to affect other kids who may not even be using that technology. You call it negative network effects. Tell me more about that.

B (9:52)

Yes. What that means is that because of the nature of smartphones and social media, the problems that come from them are not only individual level, but they actually create harmful group dynamics in a harmful social environment for other kids even who aren't on the smartphones or social media apps. And that's because now the social relationships are all being mediated through the apps and the phones. And so a kid who isn't on the smartphone could actually still experience some of the loneliness and anxiety that the kids on social media are also experiencing just because they're not on the apps. And so there are collective aspects to this problem, which is part of the reason I emphasize so much in the book that if you do the tech exit, find other families to do this with you to kind of create your own collective solutions that your child is not the only one not on the social media apps or without a smart phone. But then I also explain why schools and policymakers play a really important role in trying to back parents up. Because the school has a lot of power over the culture that is set at the school. If it's a culture that is, there's no phones during the day, that protects the kids social environment during the school day from the negative group harms of smartphones and social media. And then similarly, like policymakers can consider solutions on an even higher level, trying to help empower parents by either, you know, age restricting social media out of childhood or something like that, where it helps everybody out and kind of solves for that collective action problem. But I do encourage parents, you know, you don't have to wait on those policy solutions. Even just banding together as a group of parents, you can help mitigate those negative group level harms.

A (11:28)

Well, before we get into the actual detox, I want to talk a little about the effects of screens on self control. You write at length about that, and it's something our listeners certainly value. So can you explain how screenshots work against the goal of developing self control in kids?

B (11:44)

Yes. So kids studies have been done basically to show that kids who are handed a device instead of kind of being left to themselves when they're having a tantrum or a fit, they actually do not develop the kind of emotional regulation skills or self control that they should. And so children who are kind of frequently handed devices end up having more what they call externalizing behaviors like tantrums and poor focus and kind of just very dysregulated emotions. And a lot of this kind of again comes down to the brain science, that when a kid is handed a screen, it does calm them immediately in the short term, but cumulatively it puts their nervous system, a developing nervous system, into this fight or flight mode where the screen actually releases adrenaline and cortisol in their nervous system. They're very stimulated by the screens and there's no kind of outlet for that. And so it kind of actually addiction scientists explain too, it really makes kids live in the limbic part of their brain, the reward center, where they're getting all these rewards. Anytime you hand them a screen, you're working against yourself because it may immediately calm them down, but it's too over stimulating for their nervous system. And it's really activating the part of the brain that just will incentivize them to keep doing more and more and more. The kind of the gas pedal and the brakes. The prefrontal cortex is then underdeveloped. And there's been more and more studies coming out showing that kids who spend a lot of time on screens, particularly between the ages of 0 to 4, have a very underdeveloped prefrontal cortex. And so that ability then to even exercise self control is being stunted because that part of the brain is not being activated by the screens.

A (13:26)

So let's talk a little bit about detox. And first there's so much of this that I think is just, it's so countercultural. You know, there are school programs, sports teams, even churches which use certain apps for communication or even to in their eyes, enhance learning. So how does this work for a family looking to opt out going, I don't even see how this is possible because of the things that we're involved in and the way the system is set up.

B (13:53)

Yeah. So I recommend starting with a 30 day digital detox. And even if 30 days sounds like too much, just try it for a week because it's incredibly freeing, I think. And there's actually a science to why 30 days is so helpful that it actually really takes that long for a kid's nervous system to reregulate like these hormones. We were just talking about the kind of adrenaline, cortisol, the other stimulation of the nervous system and the effects of dopamine, how they've become desensitized to real world pleasures. Once they go without that and their, their brain actually returns to baseline, it returns to normal and they actually won't crave the apps and screens as much. That addictive kind of pull of it will will lessen and they will be more calm and able to self calm and emotionally regulate themselves. And so I just encourage parents, parents that maybe it seems daunting to do it over the long term. I think anyone can commit to doing something for 30 days, explaining to your kids what you're doing, why you're doing it, and being team players as parents. Now, parents don't necessarily have to give up their smartphones, but putting some serious distance between ourselves and our phones, putting them in a phone box, being very present with our kids when they're awake and just saying, here's all the things we're going to do instead. All these screen free activities we're going to fill our time with and we're just going to try to establish better habits without the devices. And that is often then how these families ended up becoming tech exit families is they saw the results for themselves and the changes in their kids that they really didn't think were possible. A lot of parents said we couldn't imagine honestly parenting these kids without the screens. It seemed impossible. And it was hard for the first few weeks. But then they started to learn how to play on their own. They were imaginative, their creativity came back, they were self entertained. And so we just said, why would we go back to the screens? And so they just kept going and try to find another family to do it with you if you can, to just help have some team support from another family of parents. And so other kids are going through it with your kids. And to your point about the app, I think that parents and the parents I interviewed said that we just have to get more comfortable pushing back as parents to say, my kid is not going to have this app to be on this sports team or part of this youth group. Like, you'll have to find another way to get in touch with us. And for every parent that kind of stands up to that tyranny of the smartphone, it makes it easier on the next parent. And I never met a family who said that they weren't able to find some accommodation or some workaround by just simply saying, I'm sorry, my child's not gonna have a smartphone, they're not gonna be on this app. We'll just have to find another way to be in touch with you. So yeah, we just as parents have to, I think, have a little bit more of a backbone to say, you know, we're not gonna just cave in for the sake of this one activity to giving a child a smartphone.

A (16:38)

You say that a tech exit does require a lot from Parents, particularly in terms of time. So what should parents do to manage their expectations? What would you tell parents about what they can expect while they go on a detox of any length of time?

B (16:52)

Yes, I would encourage parents and just say, you know, you do need to set aside some more time and be prepared to give a little bit more energy and intention, especially at the beginning of a detox because at first you'll really be replacing the screens with your time and attention and helping them learn how to play, giving them activities to do, coming up with activities. But then over the long term the kids are just naturally creative and they will start to become more imaginative and they will come up with their own games. And so one mom said, you know, did I love playing Monopoly five hours a day? No, but I did it to get my kids started like that first week of the detox. But you know, pretty soon she's like, then they were having their own board game tournaments and inviting neighborhood kids over to do Monopoly with them. And it kind of then took off and she didn't need to invest as much time. So I think just understanding as parents initially it may require just a little bit more assistance from us to help our kids play and come up with non screen activities to do. But over time they will actually develop those skills themselves. So yeah, just preparing yourself time wise and just having a list of activities or ideas to do instead. And I give an example sheet@thetechexit.com I just have a kind of PDF resource of here's some screen free activities for different age ranges just to stimulate some creativity on the part of parents. I know we're all busy, but I just try to offer some ideas there for ways that parents can help their kids kids engage off screens.

A (18:19)

Well, you emphasize in the book and even in this interview that there is human flourishing on the other side of all this. So can you paint that picture? What does this look like for a family on the other side of a detox?

B (18:32)

I've had the pleasure of getting to know several of these families and I would say a couple distinctive, standout. Their kids are very socially engaging. They're able to have conversations with adults. They're not not, you know, staring down at a screen and they don't have social anxiety which a lot of kids who have screens just are not comfortable interacting in person. They also have really close sibling relationships and parent child relationships that you know, not having screens. They spend a lot of time together and they are, their main source of entertainment is playing board games, going on family walks, running around Outside in the yard. And they spent a lot of time just doing things together and strengthening those family bonds, enjoying meals and dinners without phones. And their kids are thriving academically and in sports because they give a lot of their energy and time and attention towards those things, towards playing sports, developing hobbies like music or art. Yeah, they're incredibly creative. They're big readers. A lot of these kids are reading books and they're good writers and they're really thriving in school. And the kids then who are grown and go off to college just explain that they just see such a difference between themselves and their peers on the college campus that they're able to really pay attention in doing well. And they have really strong relationships off of screens. And so I will just say, like in every kind of aspect of human flourishing, just being off the screens and forming their habits without them from ages 0 to 18 makes such a difference.

A (20:01)

And what if you extend that out for me to say neighborhoods or school communities?

B (20:06)

Some neighborhoods that have done this, like the culture on the street is just the kids are playing outside, riding their bikes, laughing, working through conflict without parents around. Like they're just actually developing the skills to be mature adults and to be self entertained and self controlled. And so I would just say the communities where I've seen this done are extremely vibrant and they're really focused around, in person, real life relationships and sharing real experiences together.

A (20:35)

You know, Claire, early in the book I started to wonder, 80 years from now, will young people think of this like young people today think of cigarettes and the attitudes towards those back in the mid 20th century. But you actually do some comparison in the book to drunk driving. Why do you see that as being maybe a more apt comparison?

B (20:55)

Yeah, no, I do actually think smoking and drunk driving are some like, just helpful analogies for us to think about. Like how have we treated other substances and technologies that have had harmful impacts on kids? You know, the Mothers Against Drunk Driving that was started in the 80s was in response to their kids being harmed by drunk driving accidents. And that it actually wasn't enough for parents to teach their own children not to drink and drive, but if there were other drivers on the road who were driving and you're drinking and driving, that they were a threat to everyone, not just to their children, but other families and parents and members of the community as well. And that's why I try to explain, like, similarly with social media and smartphones, like the effects are not just individual and that you can kind of teach your own children why they're not going to have smartphones and social media, but if their peers have these devices and this is how all the social relationships and social environment is being mediated, it's really toxic to everybody. The effects of those are spill over to the community as a whole. And so I kind of say similarly, we need just a movement of parents to rise up and say like, we're not doing this for our kids. And both kind of at the community level through the schools, parents can have tremendous influence on the schools to say, hey, we want to ban smartphones at our school from bell to bell and create a school academic and social environment free of these devices. But then parents raising their voice to their state legislators, to their congress members is also really powerful. And so that's kind of why I use that analogy in the book.

A (22:24)

But Claire, I do think some families are going to be wary of policy solutions. They think decisions should be up to the parents. You're advocating for more laws and those are often at odds with personal freedoms. So what would you say to a mom or dad who's worried about government overreach? What's your best argument for the benefit of legal actions?

B (22:44)

Yeah, and there's a range of solutions. So a lot of the solutions I've worked on have actually been parental consent laws. I just want parents to actually have to consent to their child creating a social media account and put parents back in the driver's seat between the relationship that a child has with one of these giant tech companies because parents have been completely cut out of the process. So I'm like, that is at minimum a basic first step. I do think though, it is worth considering higher level solutions. There are certain things in, in our society for the sake of the common good, actually for the sake of all children, not just just the children of involved active parents that we say something is harmful for childhood and we have just age restricted it. And we're not saying adults can't use their freedoms to engage in these things, but that they're just particularly harmful for children in their development. And those analogies would be tobacco or alcohol or even other technologies that we just recognize kids are not mature enough to operate. Like motor vehicles are age restricted, firearms are age restricted. So I think I would certainly not want the government taking the place of parents. But these solutions for the common good I view as coming alongside parents because now it's not on every individual parent to make sure their child is not out purchasing tobacco or alcohol. It's just age restricted. And that keeps all children safe. And so I do, I view these laws actually As a support to parents to say, we've recognized social media is so harmful for kids, it's fine for adults, but we don't want this part of childhood. And so that's why that's the case. I would make for age, restricting it as we have other technologies that are just harmful to kids.

A (24:18)

Claire, I'd like to end with a story. Tell us about another family who really committed to kicking screens out and saw substantial change.

B (24:26)

Well, the family that really first comes to mind is a family I feature in the book. And they had three young boys, and they were all kind of addicted to their tablets and their gaming, gaming apps, and just really were on screens a lot, video games, tablets. And they just had kind of reached rock bottom when their youngest son was told he wasn't going to be ready for kindergarten. And the PD pediatrician said, you know, it looks like he has adhd and really your only hope of him starting school is going to be to medicate him. And the mom was like, I don't want to do that. And they had friends of theirs who kept telling them, you should detox from screens. We did it. It's been amazing. And they said, we can't imagine, though, dealing with these kids without the screens. Like, they have behavioral issues, and it just. It calms them down when we hand them the screen. But they felt like they reach rock bottom. And so they're like, okay, we just. We have to try a detail talks. And they. She said the first two weeks were so difficult. Their kids cried. They wanted the pads every, like, the iPads every day. But she said, we just kept going. And then they kind of stopped asking for them and they started playing together. And this is the family that was doing these, like, Monopoly tournaments. And they reached 30 days, and they saw these results, and so they kept going. And the most encouraging part of the story was not just that their youngest son, who had had serious behavioral outbursts in class, he would get into fights in preschool, became the most mild mannered, best behaved in his class. But their middle son had been diagnosed with autism and was always struggling academically and socially and had just always been behind. And they said the most unexpected result of the detox was that their son with autism started doing extremely well academically and socially and, like, made the club basketball team, started getting the top grades in his class. And they were like, we just never imagined that this would be possible. And they just said that we only wish we had done this sooner. And the state coordinator who would visit their house every month to check on their son with autism said, I wish other families would do what you do. Because he said, most homes I walk into, the child with autism is just glued to a screen and they don't even make eye contact with me. And he's like, but the progress I see in your son Dylan is just remarkable. And so I would just say, like, if it can seem impossible, this family would have said, we can't imagine doing this. But just taking the screens away, they saw just huge improvements in their kids behaviorally, academically, socially, and just in their family relationships.

A (26:54)

Claire Morell is the author of the new book the Tech A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens From Smartphones. Claire, thank you so much for being with us.

B (27:02)

Thank you so much for having me on.

A (27:09)

You've been listening to an extended interview with author Claire Morel. This is the full version of the edited conversation you heard earlier this week on the World and everything in it. If you're looking for a screen break for your kids, check out God's world news@gwnews.com you'll find we offer hard copy BI monthly magazines for kids from 3 to 14. No gadgets required. And for more of world's coverage, consider subscribing to our monthly print magazine. Designed for adults. It does include a Digital subscription to WNG.org where we publish all of our journalism. And please let us know you're listening. You can email us@editorng.org that's editorng.org or you can subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. Podcast. We'll talk to you Monday. Have a great weekend.