A (4:17)

But then today you've made the argument that we live in a crisis of truth. And so what is it that convinces you of that today? Whether it's disinformation for example, or social media echo chambers. Or is there something deeper than that in the modern imagination that convinces you of this crisis of truth we all talk about?

B (4:39)

Well, the philosophical roots go way, way back. And you can start for example in the 1880s with Nietzsche and his so called re evaluation of all values, including truth. So he was against the Christian view of truth and its subversion of power. And he wanted to put back in its place the pre Christian, the pagan and Roman view of power, where power is everything. His very last words are striking in his posthumous book, the Will to Power. Do you want a name for my world? He said this world is the will to power and nothing else besides. Now of course that's Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, but it's also in the west, postmodernism and the ruling out of truth in favor of power or social Darwinianism, the survival of the fittest. Power, Power, power, power. Now, the American experiment coming out of the Bible is the beginning of a sustained critique of the abuse of power. Take separation of powers and many, many other things in the Bible, they are forgotten today. So even the current administration make America great again. It doesn't ask what made it great in the first place. And in the absence of saying what made it great in the first place, in other words, principles it puts in power takes a doge. So dear old Elon Musk, what's his symbol of doge? A chainsaw. Sheer raw power. And the tariffs and many other things are rather like that. And they will backfire cause they are not the heart of the American experiment. And they're a betrayal of it, sadly. So without truth, you'll only have lies and deception and power.

A (6:37)

Well, let me pull on that thread just a little bit. The thread of resurgent nationalism we see not just here in the US you do see it in Europe as well, the. That appeal of strong leaders. You were talking about President Trump. He's an obvious person to point to. Evangelicals largely support him. But populism is not just a phenomenon on the right. You've got it on the left, too. In the mayor elect of New York City, you mentioned a few minutes ago, democratic socialism. Here we've got a Eugene Debs quoting socialist. He's wide open. He's unapologetic. How do you interpret the yearning for power in light of the biblical vision of authority?

B (7:21)

This is not unique to America. The problem's right across the west, there's a gap between the elites and the people, the populists. And in England, it's to do with Brexit. In Hungary, Viktor Orban in Italy, Meloni and so on. This is not American only, but it is very dangerous because clearly the elites have a very different idea from the people. And the elites are far more radicalized, both with the extreme left, like cultural Marxism and things you're talking about, like democratic socialism. So that's a very fateful gap. And of course, as Christians, we do not believe in that elite populist gap, and we should overcome it. And sadly, many evangelical leaders just follow the two sides of the gap rather than trying to heal it. So Donald Trump's strength is he's the champion of the forgotten people, and that's the populist side. So at the moment, things are flowing the populist way. But overall, the gap itself is dangerous. Now, that institutional gap is only half of the problem. There's also an ideological polarization between those who understand America from the perspective of the American Revolution and those who understand America from the perspective of ideas coming down from the French Revolution. Because post modernism, radical multiculturalism, critical race theory and all that, they come from the French Revolution, not the American Revolution. And that's an even deeper gap. And you can see that America is a deeply polarized, divided nation. So Lincoln says in the 1850s, a house divided, quoting Jesus, cannot stand. You can't be half slave, half free. And I would say to America today, as a great admirer of this country, you can't be half 1776 and half 1789. You got to choose between them. And so the Christian voices must be Like Moses or like Elijah. You can't follow. You can't sit on the fence. Do you want to follow BAAL or do you want to follow Yahweh? Do you want to go back to the first principles of the American experiment, which came largely from the Hebrew Republic? Many people don't know that the most quoted book for most of the 18th century was not John Locke or anyone like that. It was the book of Deuteronomy, Exodus and Deuteronomy, the founding of God's nation. And we've got to go back to those basic principles now, not because they're traditional or they're historically the beginning of America, but because they are the best ways of freedom today and for what I call a human friendly future. So we're facing an authoritarianism all around the world in the west, soft despotism, as the scholars put it. What's the counter to authoritarianism, to totalitarianism? The counter is the biblical way, including its critique of the abuse of power. And we've got to be unashamed in standing for the biblical way, not just as the best way to understand the American Revolution, but the best way for humanity to go forward today.

A (10:48)

So I do want to stay in this area and pick up on something you said several minutes ago, that America is at risk of forgetting what made it great. We talk about make America great again, but your concern is, is that we forget what made America great. So would you talk about the practices or about the virtues you say might help us to recover that genuine strength?

B (11:13)

Well, part of the problem is every year in Washington, you go to the State of the Union. The State of the Union is strong now. They say that because it's campaign speech, but also because there's no history and you need a measure by which to look where we are today, and I think next year, the 250th anniversary is a wonderful opportunity because you've got a baseline, the Revolution, and you've got a benchmark 250 years later. And you can see, take, say, at the time of the bicentennial, Robert Bella wrote a very famous book, the Broken Covenant, going back to the American beginning. It had been lost. Not a single leader has tried to repair that covenant in the 50 years since then. The covenant is still broken. Most Americans have no clue what covenantalism is and how it's a much richer way of freedom than sheer democracy. And you go on down the line. There are eight or nine different principles of covenantalism that are absolutely wonderful. And Christians, above all should know what they are and know how to stand for them today. Because my hope is that there will be next year something of a national rededication. There'll be a call of leaders, I don't know who, to call America back to its first principles. So President Biden used to talk about restoring the soul of America. He never said what the soul was. President Trump talks about making America great again. He never says what made it great in the first place. And it was not the economy and it was not the military. It was principles. America as a nation by intention and by ideas. And those ideas are biblical and we've got to re explore them, including pastors all across the country, not turning their pulpits into political statements, but just showing people what are the biblical ways of a free and just society.

A (13:22)

Oh, yeah, and that makes so much sense. And the question ought to be answered from the pulpit. How should we then, right? I mean, with all respect to the man who sought the answers to that.

B (13:33)

Question, my dear Francis Schaeffer. Absolutely.

A (13:36)

Well, in your writings you've used this metaphor, cut flower civilization, to describe us. If you were to describe Western culture today after Covid, after the acceleration of technology, now we're looking at fresh tensions over free speech and freedom of religious practice. Do you think that's still right? Or maybe more. So are we truly a cut flower our civilization?

B (14:02)

Absolutely. What is the central foundation? Inspiration, dynamism. Call it what you like of the west. It's the Christian faith rooted in Judaism. In other words, the Bible. The Bible made it so. You take an example, next year, the Declaration of Independence. We hold these truths to be self evident. You carry on, Nick.

A (14:26)

That all men are created equal. Yeah, right.

B (14:29)

Self evident. That would be nonsense to Plato and Aristotle. Some are born to rule, some are born to be ruled. That would be nonsense to Alexander and Julius Caesar and Napoleon. That would be nonsense to Hinduism. The Brahmins are one thing, the Dalits, the Untouchables are something else. That is a biblical idea. The sanctity of life and the dignity of everyone, including the most vulnerable, the most powerless. That is an incredible idea. And we've lost it now. We talked earlier of truth without a biblical view of truth rooted finally in the Lord. We're open to lies, we're open to power, and so on. You go on down the line. Point or take freedom. Have you ever thought there's not a single leading atheist who has a strong view of freedom? All the great atheists, Marx, Freud, Spinoza, Richard Dawkins, Jacques Mono, gone down. They're all determinists. There's no freedom. Sam Harris, the front cover of his book, is a puppet. Freedom is an illusion. Where does freedom come from? It's a biblical idea. You go on down the line without the biblical foundations. We are a cut flower civilization. And cut flowers can look beautiful in a vase for a while, but they die quickly and then they stink.

A (15:59)

Well, now, another idea that you have written about is this notion of decline and fall. And you contrast that with the idea of exile and return, the latter of which is much more hopeful. Where do you think that the west stands in that arc right now between decline and fall versus exile and return? Could you talk a bit about that?

B (16:26)

Well, the ironclad pairing of decline and fall is made popular, of course, by people like Edward Gibbon. But if you're an atheist, there's no alternative to it. If you decline, you will fall. That's the end of it. Not biblically. In other words, biblically, the pairing is exile and return. Now, I think we're clearly at that point. This is what Christopher Dawson calls a civilizational moment. When a civilization loses touch with its inspiration and there's no alternative strong enough to fill the vacuum, then you're faced with a simple choice. Do you renew the inspiration? Can you replace it with something else? Or do you decline? And there's no question the moment. The Christian faith has been repudiated for a long time by the intellectuals, now increasingly by much of ordinary people across the Western world. So we're at that moment, the west will decline, the American republic will decline, unless there's a return to the Lord. But freedom means a freedom even in repentance. Sadly, there are some evangelicals who have such a heavy view of predestination, they're almost theological determinants, too. But you can see in the Bible there's a freedom to repent. And as the Lord says, or rather Moses says in the Lord's name and many other prophets do, if you return to me, says the Lord, I will return to you and restore your fortunes. And that, of course, in Christian history, is the story of revival. Think of how the First Awakening led to the American Revolution. Think of how the First Awakening saved England, as historians have said from the French Revolution, the Second Awakening, incredible impetus for reforms, including slavery. In other words, we are realists. We look at reality unblushingly and realistically, and we will decline unless there's a massive return. Now, we've seen revivals in small areas. I make a distinction between renewal and resurgence, things that can be explicable sociologically. I remember in the 80s, there was a headline in the Washington Post, boomers turn to God. By that, they meant they wanted values for their children. It was real, but it was socially explicable. But the awakening is something when the word speaks in power and conviction and the spirit comes down in power and conviction, and there's an incredible transformation. You know, my great, great grandfather was one of the preachers in the Irish revival at the age of 23 in 1859. And in that whole region of Ireland, Ireland was united then. There was only one recorded crime the year after the revival. That's the sort of thing that revivals do. Millions of pounds worth of stolen goods returned to factories and so on. In other words, profound spiritual conviction and profound social and. And ethical implications.

A (19:50)

Now, you spoke movingly in the documentary Truth Rising about the next generation. And, you know, between where we sit today and the time that the documentary was done, there was a significant next generation leader who was assassinated right in front of the audience and right in front of the viewing audience online as he was engaging with people who disagreed with him. And of course, I'm talking about Charlie Kirk. Could you talk. Talk about the kind of leadership or imagination that you hope that this next generation will bring, even as they experience something as horrific and traumatic as this? A guy who was very hopeful young man.

B (20:36)

I only knew Charlie in a very small way. He'd read many of my books, and he thanked me for them when we met. But he was a man of courage who addressed the issues of the day, but always rooted clearly in his faith. And that courage and that confidence is what we all need, and especially the next generation. Now, I'm very encouraged. You know, a few years ago, people were talking about the mental health crisis of the young. It wasn't mental health crisis. It was for a few people, it was a meaning crisis because of the nihilism philosophically in much of the West. But you can see even in France and certainly in England, in other words, two very secular countries, and also in this country, a real new opening among the younger generation. In other words, there's a hunger for meaning, for belonging, for purpose. And the deepest answer, of course, is that in the gospel. So this is an incredible moment for people to address the younger generation and for the younger generation to speak up with courage and with confidence in the gospel. The gospel is not only the good news, it is the best news ever. I'm a great believer in the little old phrase, contrast is the mother of clarity. When you see where the alternatives lead to, then you See the wonder of the truth of the gospel. And that's where we are. Cause so many of the other crazy ideas people are following have gone to the edge, they've hit the wall. And so people are turning around. This is an incredible moment.

A (22:22)

So talking about some of the issues that do continue to this day, let's talk about a few. The abortion issue. Pro lifers fought and fought for half a century to see Roe versus Wade overturned. And then that did happen with the Dobbs decision restoring abortion policy back to the states. And the battle became a 50 state matter and relies now much more strictly on persuasion instead of pure policymaking. There was another instance of the Supreme Court dictating policy in same sex marriage. Just recently we saw a legal challenge to that fail. And so we have a concept with zero precedent in the world now considered settled law in present day us. And so it feels as entrenched as Roe versus Wade was. So how can Christians, do you think, regain credibility as persuaders in a culture that sees absolutely nothing wrong with any of this?

B (23:25)

Well, we've got to know how to persuade. First of all, too many people think that to be faithful we have to be absolutely state the gospel, blurt it out if necessary, but bluntly and boldly. And that's it. No, biblically, part of persuasion. Judgment in the Scripture is often God's pushing people or leading them to the logic of their own settled choices. And persuasion is driving people towards the logic of their settled choices. So Elijah on Mount Carmel, he didn't say come back to God or Israel fall apart. He had the whole royal court and 800 prophets against him and the people sitting in the fence. He doesn't say, come back to God. He says, if BAAL is God, follow baal. How can he do that? Well, he knows BAAL is not God. So when they try to follow BAAL and Baal's only an idol, they hit their head against the wall. And then with the vacuum, what was he gonna say? He pours water in the altar and so on, and the fire falls. Now we've gotta do something similar. And that's where CS Le used to say, press people out to the absolute ruddy end. A very English way of putting it. Francis Schaeffer used to say, push them to the logic of their presuppositions, their assumptions. In other words, if people are true to what they believe, at some point they will see the problem. You can see that with transgenderism, or let me put it in terms of same sex marriage. There's an incredible loneliness and Longing among many of the same sex marriages I've known because they can't have children. The wonderful thing about children is when two people love each other, they can create in their image. Love creates in their image as men and women make love and they have children. That's impossible. And that's part of the loneliness of same sex marriages and so on. Now they can fill it up with other families and alternative families, often problems there. But some of the simple biblical truths are so human that when they're neglected, there are consequences, sad consequences.

A (25:51)

Well, I am afraid we are near to out of time. So before we go, and this is going to have to be the last question, you know, I was tempted to talk a bit about some of the technology I see on the horizon where that issue may even be overcome in the same sex context. I mean, technology that perhaps will allow same sex couples essentially to combine their DNA. And this just seems the stuff of science fiction, but it's being openly and seriously talked about.

B (26:25)

They certainly are. We have to follow these things, AI in general and really monitor them or we'll be outsourcing our humanity to technology in all sorts of ways. Okay, to outsource our muscle power. But when you start outsourcing your heart, say people who are having relationships with AI driven women, there is no real answer down the line. And we've got to see again and again how when we outsource our humanity, there are profound problems to us as well as things that become disastrous in the kind of Frankenstein possibilities that are created. In other words, we need to be ethically really up to date with all the advances, not with fear, but just with responsibility.

A (27:15)

Well, I do think we can and should end on an up note. So let me ask you just one more. If you, if you were to issue a call to renewal in this year 2025, what would that call to renewal sound like? Is there a single truth that you think our civilization most needs to recover?

B (27:37)

Well, I would add four. Thing I would not suggest have no fear. That's the strongest biblical refrain. And too many people do have fear today. We need to remember God is greater than all. It's heaven that rules. He's greater than all situations. We need to have faith in the Lord and have no fear. But if you ask me what would be my hope, I said earlier, I think it was that the challenge of faith against modernity is rather like David and Goliath. Do we go out in Saul's armor or with Goliath's spear and buckler and all that, or do we go out with the equivalent of David's sling and five stones. I think the challenge is to let God be God. Too many people think they have to make their faith private and keep it purely spiritual, and they don't bring it out into the ordinary world in their thinking and the acting. And we've got to do that or we will become secularized, and that's the trouble. So we've got to let God be God and trust the gospel, trust the Lord. And I think people need to go back, ponder Genesis 3, the incredible revelation at Mount Sinai. I am who I am or I will be who I will be. And all that this means. Too many evangelicals only talk about the New Testament and not realize the New Testament is the fulfillment of the whole Bible, including the Old Testament. And we've got to start with the robustness and the toughness and the glory of God we see at things like Mount Sinai. And so I think the central challenge today is Luther's great phrase, let God be God in our thinking, in our acting, in our lives, individually, in our lives together. We gotta do it humbly, we gotta do it persuasively. We certainly can't be angrily and hatefully. No. But if we let God be God and we do it together as the people of God, the power of salt and light under the Holy Spirit will be remarkable. That would be my challenge to share with people. Let God be God.

A (30:04)

Well, that challenge is a real treasure that you have shared over these minutes here with us. It's an honor to be able to speak with you genuinely. It is. And I know your time is so valuable, so I just want to thank you for giving us some of it.

B (30:19)

Well, my pleasure, Nick. Thank you. And I have an enormous admiration for the great things the world has done in so many areas. Thank you.

A (30:28)

Thank you. Well, this has been a special weekend edition of the World and everything in it. Thank you for spending part of your weekend with us. And if you enjoy conversations like this one with Os Guinness, the easiest way to support the program is to follow us in your podcast app. And if you've got a moment to leave a rating or a short review, well, that also really does help. Other list find the podcast. We know not how. We just have been told that it is. We also appreciate it when you share the program directly with a friend. Word of mouth means a great deal. And as always, the world and everything in it is made possible by the faithful support of listeners like you, along with additional support from sponsors like these.

C (31:20)

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A (31:48)

We would love to hear from you. You can write to us@editorng.org and let us know what you thought of today's program. The address again editorng.org have a wonderful rest of your weekend and Lord willing, we will talk to you again on Monday.