← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
‘Black Wednesday’ - Inside Lebanon after Israel’s airstrikes
00:32:08
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- [00:03]
A
Sky News, the full story first. Hello, it's Yalda and I'm currently in Beirut.
- [00:18]
B
And me, Richard, and I'm in Tel Aviv.
- [00:24]
A
Emergency workers and paramedics are being killed at an astonishing rate. In Lebanon, more than two a day have been killed in Israeli attacks in the last six weeks.
- [00:37]
B
Pope Leo said things that are wrong. He was very much against what I'm doing with regard to Iran. And you cannot have a nuclear Iran. Pope Leo would not be happy with the end result. What they have done is engage in this act of economic terrorism against the entire world. They basically threatened any ship and that's moving through the Straits of Hormuz. Well, as the President United States showed two can play at that game. So we took a few weeks off for the Easter break, but now we are back. Peace talks between the United States and Iran ended without a deal, although a very shaky ceasefire is still holding. Trump is now imposing a blockade of all Iranian ports and the Iranian coastline. And he's lashing out at the Pope, of all people.
- [01:42]
A
I mean, it's completely nuts. And it's also really good to be back with you on the pod. I'm in Lebanon at the moment, so I can give you an update from Lebanon. It is a country that you know really well, too. And of course, there is no ceasefire in place here and there's been immense security suffering right across this country from the continued Israeli bombardment. We also had what is now being dubbed Black Wednesday, where 357 people were killed in the space of just a few minutes.
- [02:12]
B
I'm so glad we're finally spending more time talking about Lebanon. It is the conflict within a conflict that is so often ignored. A lot to get into, as always. And don't forget, you can also Watch us on YouTube and if you have any questions, please email us@theworldsky.uk we'll be answering a question question from Marianne later in this episode welcome to the World podcast. So, Yalda, great to be back with you. Did you get any break at all? I had some time off. I feel jealous, but I know we were even supposed to get together and then the next thing I know, I look around and you're on air in Beirut.
- [03:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, you know, I know you say you took a bit of a break, but have we really been able to take any kind of time off over the course of the last six weeks? Frankly, you know, the last couple of years has been so intense. We're forever on standby. And you and I were texting and you said to me, I Feel like we're on borrowed time over that Easter period, and it really was the case. Even during Easter, there was so much that was going on. Donald Trump tweeting and swearing and saying all sorts of things. Now he's lashed out at the Pope. And for those who didn't see, Trump has accused Pope Leo, an American pope, of being, and I quote, weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy. He goes on and says Leo should get his act together as pope. Use common sense, stop catering to the radical left and focus on being a great pope, not a politician.
- [04:01]
B
No, I don't. Because Pope Leo said things that are wrong. He was very much against what I'm doing with. With regard to Iran. And you cannot have a nuclear Iran. Pope Leo would not be happy with the end result. You have hundreds of millions of people dead, and it's not going to happen. So I can't. I think he's very weak on crime and other things. So I'm not. I mean, he. He went public. I'm just responding to Pope Leo.
- [04:28]
A
And Trump followed this with, believe it or not, an AI image of himself as Jesus. He's since deleted that.
- [04:34]
B
Wait a second, wait a second. Trump says he was a doctor in that post. It's so shocking. How could he come back and say he's a doctor? Has he never been to a doctor before? Does his doctor look like that, wearing robes and glowing hands? And it's just shocking. It's supposed to be me as a doctor making people better. And I do make people better. I make people a lot better.
- [04:59]
A
But just your take on all of that, it's just been totally wild from that Easter weekend where he said praise be to Allah, which angered so many Christians. Like, what are you doing now? Lashing out at the Pope.
- [05:11]
B
This isn't the first time. Remember, he also depicted himself as king. He's depicted himself as pope in the past. This time, he's Jesus. And then when he got a lot of pressure for it, he said, no, no, no, I'm not Jesus. I just thought it was being a doctor. But what's shocking is that so many people, including his own supporters, they got angry with it and they said, take it down, take it down. But then they're still right on board. Trump famously said that he could. He can get away with anything. He could shoot someone in Fifth Avenue and get away with it, that his supporters would accept it. I think he's taken that to heart. And now he'll just post and say whatever he wants because he thinks it's funny. Or because he thinks it'll get attention.
- [05:55]
A
I spoke to Italy's former Prime Minister, Matteo Renzi, who described it as silly, ridiculous and blasphemy.
- [06:03]
B
But that is crazy. As a Christian, as Catholic, I think that is blasphemous. But for everyone, also for the people, not Christians, that is ridiculous. Is silly. Is a man who lost absolutely the brain why you use religion for political issues. So absolutely no way President Trump destroy his credibility with this stupid message.
- [06:33]
A
And he said going after the Pope, I mean, he said the job of the Pope is to call for peace. And every pope talks about foreign policy, whether it's Pope Francis talking about immigration or climate change or the situation in Gaza. Pope John Paul famously weighed in on foreign policy issues. One of the things that Donald Trump has said about Pope Leo is he's there because I endorsed him. He's there because of me.
- [07:01]
B
It always does.
- [07:02]
A
Which is also not true. We know how complicated that process is to appoint a pope. And so it's got nothing to do with Donald Trump's endorsement. But extraordinary times that we live in that he will lash out at the Pope. He will swear on Easter Sunday, he will then depict himself as Jesus is. Frankly, it goes back to the point. I mean, Donald Trump is capable of doing and saying anything.
- [07:29]
B
And Vance also is one of the most devout and prominent Catholics in Trump's administration and has a book about his Catholic faith coming out. And yet he was also having to defend Trump's comments about the Pope, because apparently that's the job if you're vice president or a member of that administration. You just have to sort of swear fealty to the dear leader and go along with it. So shall we get to the matter at hand? Shall we get to the matters of war and peace? I'm dying to hear about what you're seeing in Lebanon. As you so correctly mentioned, there is a ceasefire. There's a ceasefire here. I should say there's a ceasefire in Israel in that there aren't Iranian ballistic missiles coming into this country. There aren't Iranian drones and rockets flying at the Gulf States. There aren't American and Israeli airstrikes taking place in Tehran or other places. But Lebanon isn't part of it. The Israeli troops, lots of Israeli troops are in southern Lebanon. They are carving out what Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu is describing as a buffer zone inside Lebanese territory. It looks like the Israelis are there to stay, as you mentioned. I know Beirut well. I used to live there for three years. I love the country. I have a great sympathy for the people, how is it?
- [08:59]
A
Yeah, I mean, Richard, what's now being described as Black Wednesday, that Wednesday, the citizens of Lebanon thought they were waking up to a ceasefire. What they got in return was 100 strikes in less than 10 minutes. In just a few minutes, with 357 people killed. We're talking about the elderly, mothers, children, women, you know, doctors, poets, journalists, ambulance workers trapped under the rubble. Something that the people here did not
- [09:32]
B
expect on the very day this ceasefire was supposed to be taking place. Right?
- [09:37]
A
Yeah. It's left this country in shock. And, you know, the humanitarian situation across Lebanon is gut wrenching. We keep throwing out these numbers. A million, over a million people displaced. That's a fifth of the population. We're talking about tens of thousands of homes destroyed in the south of the country. That's entire villages reduced to rubble. When Lebanese ministers and the authorities here say to me they have fears that this country is going to get turned into Gaza 2.0, you just have to look south. And sure, it is undeniable that the IDF are also targeting Hezbollah weapons and military infrastructure and Hezbollah fighters and targets. And they keep coming out with these numbers. But there are also a hell of a lot of civilians being killed in this moment. I myself spoke to a 13 year old girl who went viral on Snapchat. She was mucking around, sending a Snapchat to her friends like kids anywhere in the world, not too far from where I currently am here in central Beirut. She was with her dad. And suddenly there were a series of airstrikes. I just wanted to play that video, to just have a look because it was horrific. We heard something from the sky. We didn't know what it was, so we stopped and we waited. We just walked straight. And then they bombed the building in front of us. So we ran the opposite direction into a random house for safety. And after like a minute, we left and we started running even more. But even when we were running, they bombed another city spot next to us. And how are you feeling now? I'm feeling much better, Alhamdulillah. And I just hope that nothing like that ever happens because I think that no child deserves to go through what I have gone through. And I was lucky enough I had my dad with me because some kids have lost their parents.
- [11:44]
B
For those who weren't watching the video, and you can watch it on YouTube, that girl was, as you said, doing this Snapchat video when the bombings began. And she had the little ears and the little sort of, what is it, a bunny nose? Like you can create Faces. I do that with Theo all the time. He loves to put funny faces on while we're chatting on the phone. So she was in the middle of a cute conversation, making funny faces on the phone, and then suddenly she's running for her life.
- [12:16]
A
Let's just make one thing clear. The IDF say that they are targeting Hezbollah. And sure, Hezbollah is a militant organization, but in this country, it is also a political organization. And for large swathes of the Shia community in the south of the country, they provide all sorts of services. They have administrative offices. They have administrative offices here in Beirut. This is a complex society. It's a very mixed society. I mean, there are some in this blame Hezbollah and say, you dragged us into this conflict. After the supreme leader of Iran was killed, Hezbollah started firing rockets into northern Israel. And that's what triggered the IDF to launch this, like, massive air campaign against this entire nation. And we know that over 2,000 people have now been killed. But there are others who believe that, frankly, even if Hezbollah didn't do that, the brutal attacks that we've seen across Lebanon, the displacement of people, one in five in this country displaced and seeking shelter, would have happened anyway. So it is an incredibly tragic situation.
- [13:28]
B
And unlike Gaza, you're there, other journalists are there. You can see it happening in real time. Unlike the Gaza Strip, which is totally sealed off by Israel or Egypt in the south, journalists can't get in except with the Israeli military. And the key difference that I think people don't always understand about Lebanon is it's not that Israel is just bombing Hezbollah and killing some. Some other people as well. They plan to keep this territory. When you talk to Israeli officials and listen to Israeli officials, I've been here in Tel Aviv a lot during this conflict, so I've been meeting Israeli officials and talking with them, and they're on Israeli media all day long. So they're talking about keeping that as a buffer zone for the future. They want to keep it. Like they've decided to keep half of Gaza. Like they're keeping pieces of Syria after the Syrian government collapsed, they're keeping this buffer zone. I don't know exactly how big it's going to be. It keeps getting bigger and bigger. In southern Lebanon, Israel has expanded since October 7th, and I think that's part of this war. One of the biggest things that I try and explain to the United States and to our audience is that President Trump and the US Are fighting one conflict with one set of objectives, and Israel is fighting the same conflict. But. Well, except for Lebanon. But for Totally different reasons for totally different objectives.
- [15:03]
A
It's all part of reshaping the Middle East.
- [15:05]
B
Reshaping the Middle East. President Trump is fighting this because he says that Iran can't have a nuclear weapon and because of oil prices. These are two totally different agendas. Fighting a specific purpose. Saying you don't want an adversary to have a nuclear weapon and you want to keep oil prices down is one thing. Expanding your country and reshaping the entire region for national security reasons, but also for religious and nationalist reasons are two totally different motivations.
- [15:37]
A
And, you know, Richard, a Lebanese minister, said to me, has Israel learned no lessons from the past? You know, of course, Israel, the IDF, were in this country for 18 years. They left in the year 2000 with no strategy or vision for this region other than what we saw over that period.
- [15:58]
B
Can I make myself sound really old?
- [16:02]
A
Where were you? I was gonna say, were you there in 1982?
- [16:05]
B
No, not 82. When Israeli troops pulled out of south Lebanon. I watched it happen in the year 2000, in a car in 2000, I was already reporting. And I was there watching. Watching Israeli troops blow up their positions in southern Lebanon and leave the country after a long and unsuccessful occupation of the south, which created Hezbollah, by the way. Where do you think Hezbollah came from? Yeah, it became. It came from years of occupation. It was backed by Iran. There's a lot we could do, a whole story on the backstory of Hezbollah, but they became an effective fighting force because they were fighting Israel in southern Lebanon. And then when Israel pulled out, they became very powerful.
- [16:46]
A
And just to that point, I mean, you talk about the buffer zone that they want to create and they want to take parts south of the Litany. We also saw these images of Benjamin Netanyahu on Lebanese soil. And I spoke to government officials who said, that's appalling. This is our country. What is he doing here? And over the course of the last 15, 18 months, where there's been a ceasefire that Israel has violated on a number of occasions, the Lebanese government says, we have been trying to work with Hezbollah to disarm them again. We also heard the Secretary General of Hezbollah speak for the second time during this conflict, just in the last day or so. And he was very defiant. We're not going to surrender. There shouldn't be any face to face talk. So this is also what the Lebanese government is dealing with. You know, a Hezbollah who is supporting the US Talks with Iran, but doesn't want Lebanon and its government to talk to Israel.
- [17:43]
B
Hezbollah has been a problem for Lebanon For a very long time. And when I was living there, I remember how much anger people felt about the fact that there was a government within a government, that southern Lebanon and parts of Beirut weren't run by the government, weren't run by the army. They were run by an Iranian backed militia group that was very powerful, that could do what it wanted and could bring the country to war and has brought the country to war many times. That said, I don't think the average Lebanese person wants to give up 10% of the country and have it become Israel and say, oh yes, we do have this problem, but we want Israel to come and take over our country and have Prime Minister Netanyahu effectively come and plant the flag there.
- [18:33]
A
Hezbollah is a prescribed terrorist organization in the US and the UK in this country, it's not an illegal entity, it's a political organization. It has members of parliament. It is also the Shia community, you know, feel on some level represented by those members of parliament of Hezbollah. So it's complex in this country. Large parts of this population point the finger of blame at Hezbollah and say, why are you dragging into us into this war with Israel time and time again? But as you say, they also do not want to see the constant bombardment by Israel. They don't want to see Netanyahu
- [19:15]
B
and especially when there's talk of a peace deal and a ceasefire supposed to be going in effect that includes Lebanon, that the Israeli response is Black Wednesday. I'm Sam Coates from Sky News.
- [19:37]
A
And I'm Anne McElrovoy from POLITICO.
- [19:39]
B
Downing Street Drama, leadership, battles and policy. U turns. We're on it before it breaks.
- [19:45]
A
We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening. Smart insight, clear analysis in your feeds
- [19:51]
B
by 7:45am so you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics.
- [19:57]
A
Hit, follow and listen to politics at Sam and Anne's wherever you get your podcasts. I just want to get a better sense from you, Richard, what the Israeli public are saying about this entire thing. Not just Lebanon, but the wider conflict.
- [20:24]
B
I would say that many Israelis do still seem to be supportive of this war. When you drive down the streets in Tel Aviv, you'll see posters in English with the Israeli and American flag saying Trump finished the job. And most Israelis seem to think that attacking Hezbollah, attacking Iran, attacking Gaza and Hamas, that these were all important, necessary, vital steps for Israel to take. They're also not really feeling the war here. So when you walk outside in Tel Aviv right now, right now, there are people on the beach. There is a sailing regatta going on as I speak to you right now, just a few blocks from where I am on the beach. There are cafes that are packed and full. Airlines are working. At least the airport is open. And because of these missile defense systems, people here feel very secure, and they also feel very justified. Israelis will tell you that they're the victims in all of this, that they had no other choice, and that it goes back to October 7, that on October 7, they were attacked, many Israelis were massacred when Hamas militants broke into the country and went on a killing and kidnapping spree. And they see this war as a continuum of what happened on that day, that Israel responded against Hamas in Gaza, flattened Gaza, by the way. There are Israeli politicians who openly say that what happened in Gaza is what should happen in Lebanon. That's not a taboo here. People openly say, yes, we should do another Gaza in Lebanon. These are members of the Israeli government who are saying things like that. Not fringe. They may be fringe, but they are fringe insiders. So on the mood, I think there's this general sense of Israel has to do this. We have no other choice, and it's a good thing that we're finally attacking the head of the snake, which is Iran, and that hopefully one day we can move on. But Netanyahu is certainly pleased with the way things are going. He's talking about how Israel is now the most powerful country in the region, is reshaping the Middle East. He's very much aware of this project that he is involved in, which is not the same project that the United States is involved in. President Trump doesn't talk about the war in terms of Israeli expansion or defending the sort of territorial integrity of Israel or growing its borders. He talks about it in terms of nuclear weapons and oil flow. But here in Israel, it goes back to at least October 7, if not much earlier than that.
- [23:31]
A
Yeah. And we saw in those negotiations with the United States, three points. Money, ships, enrichment, uranium, you know, and so those were the three things on the table for the Americans. We'll have to wait and see whether, you know, these talks go anywhere. I know everyone keeps talking about them failing and collapsing, but we're already hearing that, that there's going to be more talks, potentially later this week.
- [23:58]
B
Yeah. So the latest is that there has been now one round of negotiations so far, headed by J.D. vance on the American side and the speaker of the Iranian Parliament on the other. They didn't produce a result, even though they met for 21 hours at the lovely Serena Hotel in Islamabad, which is
- [24:19]
A
one of my favorite places, which you and I know well, Mine, too.
- [24:20]
B
It's a great place. When I heard about those talks, I was like, ah, I missed a good opportunity to visit the Serena and go jogging in the Margala Hills, which are nearby. It's a great place. And now there's talk about another round of negotiations, potentially again in Pakistan. But we'll see, because the US Is fighting one war, Israel is fighting another, and Iran is fighting a war for its survival. So President Trump keeps being surprised. Why has the Iranian government collapsed? You're telling them that they're gonna die. You're telling that you're gonna wipe out their civilization. You're telling them that the regime needs to change. You've killed their supreme leader. You've killed many, many commanders. Did he think that they were just gonna roll over? That's not human nature. When you're attacked and you're forced into a corner, whether you're an army, a person, or a cat, you're going to fight back with everything you've got.
- [25:18]
A
And as you say, for the United States, this is a war of choice. For the Iranians and the Iranian government, it is a existential threat. And it's for the regime in particular, it's about survival. And so the idea that somehow they're going to surrender or cave in or tap out whatever it is that Donald Trump is seeking by threatening their civilization, you don't threaten to destroy a civilization if you're winning a war. The idea that the Iranians are going to. Been waiting for them to surrender since February 28th, when, first of all, it wasn't clear, as we've discussed on this podcast, what the ambitions were for this war, whether it was regime change or it was taking out their nuclear facilities or their missile launches and missiles, it was all over the place. And then, of course, we've seen in the last six weeks, sure, militarily, the United States and Israel are far more superior, but the asymmetric war has, frankly, been won by the Iranians. And the Strait of Hormuz, which was open six weeks ago and is now closed thanks to this war, is a card that the Iranians have, and it's not a bit of leverage that they're going to give up easily. So, JD Van's thinking that he's going to go to Islamabad. And Richard, I was speaking to a diplomat who was on the ground, privy to all of the conversations. Very early on in the evening that night, I said to him, how's it going? And he said, and not good, because the Strait of Hormuz is going to become a huge talking point. And frankly, when that is your leverage, why on earth would you give it up? Why on earth would you say, okay, well, I'll give that up and you stop the war? They want to see, and they have found themselves in a position in the past, Richard, where they've been in the middle of negotiations and they've been bombed, and they do not want a repeat of that. They want to ensure that there are lessons that are learned from this and that they don't repeat that. Having said that, Richard, I think this image of J.D. vance and Mohammed Ghaliboff, the Speaker of Parliament, who isn't just any ordinary speaker of Parliament, he was a senior commander in the IRGC and perhaps one of the most senior members now of the Iranian regime, seeing that image of those two men together is a really big deal.
- [27:39]
B
And as you say, why would they give up the only card they've got when they've been burned in the past they were attacked during negotiations and when there are American warships right off their coast and thousands of American Marines who specialize in beach landings? So you're gonna give up your leverage when there are troops that could potentially invade your country and take over the coast? Right there? Right there. So it's high stakes diplomacy. We will see if it works, and we'll see if Lebanon is included in it or if the American people and Iran get to sort of walk away from this conflict.
- [28:24]
A
Ultimately, Donald Trump has two choices here. He can either choose to continue to escalate this, and we know regardless of what he said about the blockade, or trying to use pressure tactics on the Iranians. He doesn't want to take a maximalist approach here. He needs this thing to wrap up and end. So I've been speaking to military experts, people who are looking at strategy, and say it wasn't just a shallow strategy that started this war. It was no strategy. And the best thing that Donald Trump can now do is declare victory and move on swiftly from this and try and then deal with the issues that the Iranians are raising and putting on the table here, whether that's the opening up of the Strait of Hormuz or whether it's their enrichment, uranium enrichment program. There are certain things that eventually the Iranians will have to come to the negotiating table and deal with. But, you know, I think that Donald Trump, the best thing he can do with just a few months away from the midterm elections is try and wrap this up as soon as Possible.
- [29:36]
B
So before we go, we have this question from Marianne Slater, who emailed us@theworldky.uk which is which everyone else should do, please. We love the questions. And she says, hello, both of you. Can you recommend a book or documentary on the Israel Palestine conflict? Mine is not specifically about the Israel Palestine conflict. It is a general book on the formation of the modern Middle East. It's David Fromkin's A Peace To End All Peace. And it's a great book. It's one of my favorite books. It's a seminal book and it basically talks about how the modern Middle east was created badly out of the debris of the Ottoman Empire. So the Ottoman Empire was dying. World War II happens. The Ottomans, the Turkish Ottoman Empire joined the wrong side in World War II. They joined. The Kaiser lost and saw their expansive empire chopped into little pieces by outside powers. And those little pieces became the Middle East. And the way that it was carved up led to a century of nearly constant conflict that we are seeing right now. So that would be my recommendation for a book that is not just about Israel, Palestine, but is about this entire modern creation of the modern Middle east on the remains and out of the remains of. Of previous empires.
- [31:11]
A
Yeah. And I think you've recommended a book, perhaps a really brilliant documentary is no Other Land, which was recorded over a number of years and shows the destruction of a Palestinian community in the west bank, which we're seeing at the moment as well. And the international community has condemned and said they're really concerned about what's going on in the west bank at the moment. And it's about a Palestinian community. They're resisting forced displacement after the Israelis sort of declared, sort of tried to settle on their land. So I think that's a really good one to watch to get a better sense of what's going on right now in the West Bank.
- [31:58]
B
Well, it is always great to talk to you. I never know exactly where you're going to turn up. I'm sorry, I missed you. We were going to have plans. We had plans. We were going to get together physically over the break, but it didn't happen. You got called away. I ended up back here. The. This. These are fast moving events and it is, it is what it is. It is the life.
- [32:20]
A
Thank you so much for listening and Richard, really good to see you again.
- [32:24]
B
All right, thanks to everyone. Until next time.
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