← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Bondi, Imran Khan’s sons speak out and is a deal close in Ukraine?
00:44:13
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- [00:03]
Yalda Hakim
Sky News, the full story first. Hello and welcome to the world with me, Yalda, and I'm currently in London.
- [00:20]
Richard Engel
And me, Richard Engel, and I am in Lisbon.
- [00:23]
Yalda Hakim
It was the Jewish community that came under siege here in Bondi Beach. But the attack has left everyone bewildered.
- [00:38]
Richard Engel
We're closer now and they, they will tell you that they're closer now. We had numerous conversations with President Putin of Russia, and I think we're closer now than we have been ever.
- [00:53]
Qasem Khan
You go on Twitter and suddenly you see Imran Khan dead, his body being trans. This, it's like, it's obviously very jarring, especially how helpless we are over here. Not able to do much at all.
- [01:18]
Yalda Hakim
Richard, how are you? No last minute planned trips before Christmas?
- [01:23]
Richard Engel
Well, you never know at this stage. It doesn't look like it, but we're both getting up bright and early because I'm home, you're home at the moment, and it's getting, you know, holiday time. So we're both recording this early crack of dawn so that we can both take our kids to school. I think a lot of people might not know it out there, but the two of us are big time homebodies when we're home. So this is what it looks like first thing in the morning. Let's do this podcast before we take the kids in the car and get them, get them off to their school.
- [01:58]
Yalda Hakim
Exactly. Sorry, Alexander.
- [02:03]
Richard Engel
Alexander sitting right with you, isn't he?
- [02:04]
Yalda Hakim
Alexander has just woken up. He's on school holidays. He's telling me he's not going to school. His school holidays have already started. So, you know, we're juggling life and, and work and, and everything else.
- [02:16]
Richard Engel
There's already a big discussion among the parents at, at our school. There's too many holidays. They should be there longer. What is it with these teachers?
- [02:25]
Yalda Hakim
Honestly, I think that we're off school six months of the year. I mean, it's insane. So anyway, let's talk about, let's talk about today.
- [02:35]
Richard Engel
Let's talk about today before Alexander comes back and decides he's not happy doing whatever he's gone off to do by himself for a few minutes or before Theo bursts into my office here and demands attention.
- [02:48]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, I mean, it's been such a horrific week as well, Richard, because every year for Christmas we go home to Sydney and of course, you know, yes, you're Australian. I mean, I'm Australian and home is Sydney. And of course we've had this awful terror incident, terrorist attack that happened in Australia. It's my home. It's where I Grew up and it was very shocking for me. My family, it's very personal. My family spends a lot of time at Bondi beach. So, you know, so is Bondi Beach.
- [03:20]
Richard Engel
It's also used by locals. It's not just one of these, I don't know, tourist traps, like certain places that, you know, all the tourists go, but the locals don't really bother with it, is it, it's, it's part of everyday life in Sydney for a lot of people.
- [03:35]
Yalda Hakim
Absolutely. I mean, last year for New Year's Eve, you know, I, I was. New Year's Eve is such a big deal in, in, in Australia because we're one of the first to, to clock in the new year and the tradition is that you go to Bondi in the early hours of the morning. You go for a long day, beautiful walk. So this really was, you know, really shook us and really horrific. So, yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to, to getting back home to the family at this really tragic time.
- [04:02]
Richard Engel
Yeah, terrible, terrible. I'm sure. I'm curious to hear what they have to say and how they were impacted. We'll also talk about Ukraine and why President Trump says that we are closer than ever to a deal. We'll see if there's movement on that this week. Zelensky backing away from his insistence on NATO membership has opened up the door for some new possib.
- [04:24]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. And then I sat down with the sons of Imran Khan, the former Prime Minister of Pakistan, who, as we now, as we know, I mean, he's in jail. They rarely do interviews. So I think it tells you a lot about how desperate they right now are, how concerned they are about their father.
- [04:41]
Richard Engel
And a reminder, you can Watch us on YouTube. Just look out for the world with Richard in Yaldam and of course, follow us on Spotify and Apple. And this is your last chance. If you want to write in with questions for our special Christmas episode again that can be on or off the news, please do so the worldkay.uk.
- [05:09]
Yalda Hakim
So, Richard, let's start on that awful Bondi beach attack that happened over the weekend. I mean, I was traveling and, you know, saw the alert on my phone that, that 10 people had been killed and it was just horrifying because first of all, this sort of thing just does not in Australia. It's an island nation so far away from the, the rest of the world. It's a utopia for the people who, who live there. You know, my, it's a country that I grew up in. I, I, I Love Australia. It's, it's a, got a really strong sense of community. This sort of thing just does not happen in a place like Australia. I often say that, you know, the, the thing that we focus on the most, the, the main news that comes out of the country, a bushfires or some kind of freak weather condition, this kind of terror attack, it really has shook us to the.
- [06:03]
Richard Engel
Correct me if I'm wrong, gun ownership is quite high. Right. A lot of per capita gun ownership. Or is that mostly for hunting in the bush?
- [06:10]
Yalda Hakim
Mostly for hunting. You know, there was collectively a decision made in the 90s after a massacre that took place in Tasmania, in Port Arthur, to rid the nation of firearms and was overwhelmingly supported by the entire country. And so, you know, big questions were being asked about, you know, who, who these two gunmen were. More information came out that it was a father and son situation. I mean, it is the deadliest mass killing in nearly 30 years and it does, the country does have some of the toughest gun laws. So, you know, big, big questions being asked and also questions around anti Semitism, you know, the impact it' have on the Jewish community, the wider Australian community. There's something like 120,000. The official figures of, you know, put the Jewish community of Australia at roughly 117,000, 120,000 Australians. So really has been gut wrenching. But, you know, honing in on who these suspects are. It's a father and son who, it's understood that the father came to Australia, I believe in, in 1998, as a student from India. In 2019, the son, Navita Crumb, was being investigated by the Australian intelligence services because of his association with people being investigated, deemed to be a threat to the country. But then he wasn't seen as he.
- [07:51]
Richard Engel
Was one step removed. They were investigating people who were associates of his, but he got off. Is that correct?
- [07:57]
Yalda Hakim
Absolutely. Exactly. And then now they're saying that they had traveled to the Philippines last month. And as you and I both know, you know, while the Philippines, there's always been questions around Mindanao, the, the region where it's believed to be a hotbed of terrorism. That's fragmented now, but it's understood they went to the Philippines, so that's also being investigated.
- [08:22]
Richard Engel
They had an ISIS flag in the car. And I think by now everyone has seen two videos and, and I say shocking videos. And I'm, you know, I think both of us have a pretty sort of high level of what is, what is shocking or not. But the video of the younger man just hit a bolt Action rifle and just loading, firing, loading, firing, loading, firing, loading, firing. And the, the older man who looked like an older man, you know, who wasn't in great shape and had sort of, what do they call it, you know, dad's bod, but just standing, the military gear, firing his shotgun, truly just into people, just anyone who's standing in front of him. That image and then the image of this Syrian refugee diving and tackling that man to the ground and then ripping his gun away from him. And that image also one that is indelible.
- [09:19]
Yalda Hakim
Richard, you, you mentioned there Ahmed al Ahmad, the 43 year old Syrian asylum seeker who is being hailed globally, globally as a hero. Even President Trump talked about him, you know, this heroic act of just diving in and grabbing this gunman, attempting to shoot him, you know, missing, but being shot twice himself. There are all sorts of communities that live in Australia and there is going to be a concerted effort to ensure that doesn't happen. And you know, Ahmed Al Ahmed, the Syrian asylum seeker will be celebrated as a hero and a testament to what Australian society is. Because what happened goes against the core of what this nation is. And I think that, you know, that in itself tells you what this Syrian man did about this sense of community that people have when they live in an Australia. But sure, I think there is going to be huge concern, especially from within the Jewish community about tackling anti Semitism, you know, how the government is going to deal with that, how the wider Australian community is going to deal with that. But I guess the big question is, you know, what sort of societies are we leaving to our children? We've just spoken about our children just now, you know, the tearing, dangerous ones, dangerous ones. It's itself apart between anti Semitism and Islamophobia. You know, where this sort of thing can happen on a peaceful beach in a country where you just wouldn't see this kind of thing take place.
- [10:47]
Richard Engel
What kind of children or future are we living to our children? Well, I think that's why we both make sure we take them to school and spend a lot of time with them and try and show them as much love and compassion and concern so they don't grow up violent little psychopath.
- [11:03]
Yalda Hakim
So Richard, the alleged gunman has been charged with 59 offenses, including a terror charge. The father obviously killed at the scene. The son remains in, in hospital and he's now been charged with 59 offenses, including, as I said, a terror charge. But what, what is so gut wrenching, I mean, you think about all of these victims, the youngest one was a 10 year old girl. I was listening to one of the relatives talking about her and they just said they've run out of. They're just absolutely shocked. They cannot believe, they just cannot believe that this could, could happen. You know, like I said, this sort of thing just does not happen in a place like Australia. She was a little girl who moved with her family from Ukraine.
- [11:47]
Richard Engel
Just tragic. She went there. The family thought, ah, new life, starting a new future for your family and for your kids, which is why you make such a long and arduous journey. And then to have them murdered on the beach during a holiday celebration, Hanukkah celebration, just horrendous.
- [12:04]
Yalda Hakim
The oldest victim, 87 year old man called Alexander Clayton and he moved to Australia after the, the Holocaust. I mean, you know, just, just again, absolutely gut wrenching. And then there's this video of, of people trying to stop the gunman. Again, you know, we saw, we just talked there about Ahmed Al Ahmed. There was another couple, Boris and Sophia, German, trying to wrestle the gun off, off the shooter. So there were multiple people on that beach trying to stop these, these gunmen and, and Boris, Sophia were, were killed. So Richard, let's discuss the situation in Ukraine because we've had some progress this week. You've been tracking it very closely. Just give us an update.
- [13:02]
Richard Engel
President Trump says we're closer than ever to a deal now. He says that kind of thing all the time. Every day. It's the greatest day in the world. Every day. You know, thanks to him, everything is going to be just, just better, bigger and better. And nobody's ever seen it, nobody's ever seen anything like it. That's his favorite phrase, it seems of the moment. But there has been some real diplomatic progress according to numerous officials, European officials, Ukrainian officials, U.S. officials over the last several days. And it came after President Zelensky dropped his long standing demand that the only way to solve this war is to allow Ukraine to join NATO. That would be the only way to prevent Russia from invading again. Because that's the basic concern that Zelensky and many Ukrainians have and not without good reason. They worry, they accept a peace deal, the armistice lines or something slightly different from the current battle lines. And then the war sort of fades into the recess of memory and people move on to other things and Russia just invades again. But by Zelensky dropping this demand, which he probably wasn't going to get, it's now created a decent amount of progress because the US and the Europeans are saying, okay, well now we can talk about NATO like security guarantees. What can we do to give Ukraine those security guarantees without involving Ukraine and letting Ukraine join NATO, which Putin would never accept, Trump would never accept, and under the current circumstances wouldn't happen. So now there's talking about maybe European peacekeepers on the ground. NATO like guarantees, meaning some sort of a collective security pact, tighter integration between the Ukrainian air force, infantry and naval forces with their counterparts in Europe. So quite a few things have happened on the security front. Security guarantee front, but major problems still in terms of territory. They still can't agree on the maps.
- [15:25]
Yalda Hakim
And it feels like that will be the major sticking point when we hear President Trump say we're closer than ever before to a deal. We've heard this multiple times. I mean, European leaders are now saying there has been significant progress. The German chancellor said that the security guarantees were truly remarkable and a very important advancement. But let's see what the Russians agree to because as you say, territory, these sorts of security guarantees, boots on the ground, European so called peacekeeping forces on the ground, these are big, big question marks around how much of this are the Russians going to agree to? So far, in terms of what the Kremlin is saying, it's the status quo. The Europeans, President Zelensky has said that, look, if the Russians don't agree to this particular deal, then that leaves us in a position where we can continue to ask for more weapons, more aid, more support. That means that you, we have, as we've always said, want to come to the negotiating table and it's the Russians that don't. So it does feel like we've been stuck in this vicious cycle for the last 12 months or so since Donald Trump came into power, where he keeps trying to push this over the line, trying to make a quick deal. And we're seeing the Russians frankly refusing to blink and Zelensky running around panicking first because he thinks he's going to be thrown under the bus. The Europeans stepping in and then us hearing these sorts of statements like significant progress has been made. But if you look at it from the Russian perspective, has it really?
- [17:16]
Richard Engel
Well, they haven't been asked to give up any territory. The Russians took territory, they took land. Now Ukraine is being asked to give back land to Russia to hand over territory to Russia that Russia wasn't even able to capture. And Russia doesn't have to give anything over to the Ukrainians, just has to promise not to take more from the Ukrainian perspective, that seems profoundly unfair. And there's one place in particular where this is the most sensitive and this is in this Donbass region. And the Donbas region, about 90% of it is held by Russia. But the last has 10% which is not small. We're talking about 2,000 square miles roughly. And has two cities in it. Is still in Ukrainian hands. So this peace deal would force President Zelensky to say, okay, as it is turned, we're going to give up that territory. 2,000 square miles of inhabited land with cities on it. It we're going to pull our troops back. We're going to tell those people, well, good luck. It's been nice knowing you. I guess you're Russians now or you could leave and goodbye. And the American solution has been like, well, maybe we can turn that area into this free economic zone, an area that the Ukrainians pull out of, but then the Russians won't be allowed to move in there by force. It'll become this kind of international duty free zone.
- [18:54]
Suleiman Khan
Zone.
- [18:56]
Richard Engel
Yalda history has shown these designated gray spaces never work. They never work. They generally just create a place of chaos that starts the next war. I've never seen one of these ill defined, no man's land Netherland that successfully calms things down. Not between north and South Korea, not in South Lebanon. I've never seen any of these. Well, we'll just call it a vague neutral zone and everything will go fine. That was supposed to be Jerusalem during the mandate period. This never works. At least I can't think of any example where this works.
- [19:41]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, and Zelensky said that, hasn't he? He's talked about this economic zone as not meaning that it's Russian territory. But. But you know, that's probably not what the Russians are thinking. They want it and they'll do whatever it takes and Dr. Their feet for as long as it takes.
- [19:59]
Richard Engel
We'll see if they get there. Let's take a break now. And you've been following the story very closely. It's a fascinating story. Pakistan is a huge country, nuclear armed country. It's going through political changes. And you've been following the story of the controversial figure Imran Khan and managed to speak with his sons who rarely give interviews. So let's take a break. On the backside. I would love to hear more about what you've been learning.
- [20:39]
Yalda Hakim
Hey, it's Sophie and Will from Sky News. Too many headlines, too little time.
- [20:43]
Qasem Khan
We get it. And that's why we're bringing you cheat sheet.
- [20:46]
Yalda Hakim
10 minutes every weekday morning.
- [20:48]
Qasem Khan
All the big stories from politics to pop culture, minus the noise, no doom.
- [20:53]
Yalda Hakim
Scrolling, no spin, just the stories that matter from two people who live and breathe the news. Cheat Sheet with Bridge and Frost from Sky News.
- [21:02]
Qasem Khan
Follow Cheat Sheet wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:17]
Yalda Hakim
Welcome back to the World podcast, Richard. I just want to give you an update on a story that we've been covering very closely on, on this podcast. And as you say, that I've been covering closely for, for a number of years and obviously the situation in Pakistan with both the ongoing imprisonment of the former Prime Minister Imran Khan and the new powers granted to the military chief Asim Munir. If anyone wants to know and get a little bit more of a, of a background, they should listen to our podcast from last week and the week before where we cover this situation extensively in the changes in the country. But I sat down with Imran Khan's two sons, Qasem and Suleiman. They're the sons of Jemima Goldsmith. They're both in their twenties and they've mainly stayed out of the public eye. Their father and mother have always been in the public eye but you know, they themselves live a very private life. And until of course, their father became leader of Pakistan and then he found himself in jail, accused of corruption, something like 200 cases against him. They started to do a few interviews, but basically they haven't really spoken much to the press. But they are desperate now to draw international attention to their father's case. They sat down with me in this very rare interview and, and talked about the last time they spoke about their father and, and what they're going through.
- [22:49]
Richard Engel
Before we hear those clips, if I just ask you to set it up a little bit more because I'm, I'm dying to hear them. But, but just remind our listeners, so what happened to Imran Khan? He was the ladies man around the world or an object of great admiration among some. He won electoral politics in Pakistan. He was the sort of, I don't want to call him the big man on campus, but he was at the top of the world for a while and now he's in jail. We don't know exactly where he is. His family are speaking out, but they're afraid to speak out, which is why the, the sons did this interview. And you're describing it as also quite rare when the, when it, when his, was it his sister that you spoke to last week, when his sister spoke out, there was a deep fake attack on you in order to try and confuse that message so that the family's message wouldn't come out. So why the sudden and dramatic downfall and why are so many In Pakistan determined not to have this story be told.
- [24:00]
Yalda Hakim
You know, Richard, I often look at Pakistan as a country that either hits the headlines like it did post 9 11, or it's completely forgotten about. And it feels like in this moment, you know, we are looking again at Pakistan slipping down the slippery slope of authoritarianism. So we've spoken in the last few weeks about Asim Munir, the army chief, giving himself lifetime immunity, you know, changing his title to field marshal. But we've always seen in, throughout Pakistan's history, Since partition in 1947, from, from India, we've always seen this battle between the civilian government in Pakistan and the military and the intelligence agency from sort of behind the scenes, in the shadows. The military, the intelligence agency has sort of more or less called the shots, controlled the civilian government. And they've never sort of done it as overtly as what we're seeing today, where the army chief comes out, gives himself lifetime immunity. They've always had a tricky relationship with every prime minister. They build them up, they give them support. That's how they end up in power.
- [25:13]
Richard Engel
So they operated in the shadows now. The shadows, they're out of the shadows.
- [25:17]
Yalda Hakim
Well, in the last, if in the last 50 years, you know, no, I mean, frankly, no Pakistani prime minister has remained in power without ending up in prison. That's almost been part of the job description. They then cut a deal with the military and end up either in exile or back in power. Now, Imran Khan, just like the other leaders, was part of a machinery where he was built up, his brand was built up. He had a very close relationship with the military. And then they had a falling out, you know, because perhaps he got too big for his boots. Perhaps he started talking very openly against the military and he thought perhaps that he was more powerful, his base was more powerful than the intelligence agency and the military. And we saw when, when he was, you know, first imprisoned, his supporters turned, and for the first time we saw them attacking military installations. That's just something that doesn't happen in Pakistan. You know, this. The military held in, in quite high esteem. So Imran Khan, you know, has, had, has been a very controversial figure, but he does have a massive base. He falls out with the military just like the other Pakistani prime ministers. He has hundreds of cases made against him, including leaking state secrets and corruption. He gets thrown into prison. 14 year sentence against him. And now he, he remains in solitary confinement. His son's safe for up to 23 hours a day. He's not allowed access to his physician. He's not allowed access to any books, any exercise, any sort of, you know, contact with other inmates. He was described to me by a Pakistani government spokesperson as a national security threat. I'm joined now by Musharraf Zaidi, a spokesperson for the Pakistani prime minister. I want you to address the solitary confinement and why the international community. The UN is saying it's a unlawful.
- [27:16]
Musharraf Zaidi
Well, I think the UN folks have been watching Sky News too much, so maybe they need to chill.
- [27:21]
Yalda Hakim
I mean, you would think the special rapporteur would know what she's talking about.
- [27:24]
Musharraf Zaidi
Like I said, I think Dr. Alice Jared, these are huge names in their fields. And I think the government absolutely, you know, Pakistan is very, very keen on multilateralism. It's really a way of life.
- [27:38]
Yalda Hakim
I want to keep you focused on this.
- [27:39]
Musharraf Zaidi
Go ahead on this. Imran Khan's been incarcerated for about 860 days. How many unique visits, interviews is what we call them in our system do you think he's had in those? 860.
- [27:51]
Yalda Hakim
You tell me.
- [27:51]
Musharraf Zaidi
You've got the numbers he's supposed to get. As you said, one every week and it's been about 112 weeks. He's had 870, but just on his family. He's had 137 meetings with his sisters, 45 with Aleema, 49 with Uzma, 43 with Noreen. Now Uzma's numbers are a bit outdated. I think he's had two more since then. These are 137, 140ish.
- [28:17]
Yalda Hakim
So help me understand why the boys haven't spoken to him on the phone.
- [28:21]
Musharraf Zaidi
I'll come to that in a second.
- [28:23]
Yalda Hakim
Four months for one and five months for another.
- [28:24]
Musharraf Zaidi
I'll come to that in a second. But this doesn't sound like solitary confinement to me. But let me give you more. Let me give you more.
- [28:30]
Yalda Hakim
Okay.
- [28:30]
Musharraf Zaidi
He's had 451 interviews with his lawyers. 451.
- [28:35]
Yalda Hakim
Well, right now the UN is saying that he hasn't had adequate medical attention.
- [28:40]
Musharraf Zaidi
Let me get the man. Let me get to the medical.
- [28:42]
Richard Engel
I have a list.
- [28:43]
Musharraf Zaidi
I have a list of 30 plus visits. Not only by. By the way, there was some talk about military. There's no military doctors. In fact, Dr. Faisal Sultan, personal physician.
- [28:55]
Yalda Hakim
Is allowed to see him.
- [28:55]
Musharraf Zaidi
Dr. Faisal Sultan has seen him.
- [28:57]
Yalda Hakim
His personal physician is allowed to see him.
- [28:59]
Musharraf Zaidi
Yeah, absolutely. And they have seen him multiple times again.
- [29:04]
Yalda Hakim
So this is how they view him. And when you. When you ask any of his supporters whether he's ever going to be released, they say yes, we're hopeful. When I asked his sons, they said they're not sure if they'll ever see their father again.
- [29:16]
Richard Engel
So maybe it's time we hear from them directly.
- [29:18]
Yalda Hakim
Let's hear more now from Qasem and Suleiman Khan. What do you know about how he's coping in there? You know, solitary confinement. If you can describe to us what that's like inside there and how he's doing. I mean, he's a 73 year old man as well.
- [29:34]
Qasem Khan
The conditions are awful. They're like, they're not bad, they're awful. It's, you know.
- [29:39]
Suleiman Khan
Yeah, it's been described as a death cell, the cell that he's in, because I think inmates who have been put on death row have been put in these small, these small cells before with barely any light. Sometimes the electricity has been cut off, dirty water, as Carson was saying, and just completely substandard conditions that don't meet international law for any sort of privilege prisoner.
- [30:05]
Yalda Hakim
So what went through your minds when you saw the images of him that were circulating on social media that perhaps he died or he'd been killed? There were all sorts of rumors swirling because of course there, there was no family contact, even though every Tuesday family members based on the court are supposed to see him and make contact with him and they hadn't for several weeks.
- [30:26]
Suleiman Khan
Yeah, incredibly stressful. Obviously. I, I went straight onto kind of my family group chat because that's the only contact reliable source that we have on the ground in Pakistan.
- [30:38]
Qasem Khan
I remember it's just, you know, you go on Twitter and suddenly you see just, you know, Imran Khan dead, his body being transferred to this. It's like, it's obviously very jarring and obviously pulls you out of whatever you're trying to do in your normal life, especially how helpless we are over here, not able to do much at all. So it's, it's not ideal.
- [30:57]
Yalda Hakim
And what did your aunt say about seeing him after that period when that started to generate a lot of headlines and the international media got involved, the international community got involved. Suddenly she was allowed to see him again. What did she say about how he was?
- [31:14]
Suleiman Khan
She reassured us that he was well. And yeah, he was, he was, he seemed healthy and well, but he, he was furious about the conditions he's being kept in. And he put out, he dictated a tweet, I think through her, or maybe, yeah, potentially through her. And I think that tweet has partly led to this reaction from the establishment to completely try and isolate him. Now.
- [31:43]
Yalda Hakim
I also wonder, you Talked about the fact that you guys have been warned not. Not to come, even though the Defense Minister said you're welcome to come and you can visit him. Have you guys tried. Have you tried to engage with the Pakistani government to allow you to go and see your father?
- [31:58]
Qasem Khan
Yeah, we're now planning, because they said it openly. So unless they go against their word again, then we should be hopefully going in January. We applied for our visas, but we were. Well, I mean, it hasn't come through yet. We're expecting it to come through, so we're planning a trip in January.
- [32:21]
Yalda Hakim
And if you do see him, what. What are you likely to say? I mean, do you think that you would say, look, you've. You've spent this time in prison, you've done your time, you know, perhaps look at cutting a deal.
- [32:33]
Qasem Khan
What you have to understand is it's his life. It's literally his passion and his goal. He calls it his life purpose instead, to help Pakistan rid it of corruption. And so if he just took a deal and came over to us and lived in England, I know there would be this kind of. This burning desire and this aching that would. That he's, you know, has left his country for dead. And he'd be depressed, to be honest. I know he would. This is his goal. And as much as we'd love to have our father watch all of our kind of cricket matches or football matches over here, he has a purpose which is far greater, so you can only respect it.
- [33:15]
Yalda Hakim
What else would you. Would you say to him? I mean, if you could send him a message now through this, what would you say to him?
- [33:21]
Qasem Khan
It's hard not to speak, just to get desperate. I want to know how we can. How we can get him out, how we can help. Because the main point is we feel so helpless at this point.
- [33:33]
Richard Engel
Point.
- [33:33]
Qasem Khan
I mean, there's so much to catch up on, what we've been doing in the past six months. How is life with us? And he refuses always to talk about his conditions. He's like, oh, you know, don't worry about me. How's everything? He wants to just kind of take in, absorb as much about what we're doing as possible. So he, I guess, yeah, he has something to think about when he's in there. Doesn't want to dwell on, you know, his situation. One of the first things you asked earlier, kind of what we'd speak to him about. One of the first things, if it's not the first question, it's the second question was always, how is your grandmother whose House. It is here who he loved. You know, tweeted that he loved her like a mother. We haven't spoken to him since she died only a couple of months ago. And I would love to speak to him about that. You know, it's. He called her his mother after his own mother had passed and their relationship was so close.
- [34:28]
Richard Engel
Close.
- [34:30]
Qasem Khan
So I'd love to speak to him about that.
- [34:31]
Yalda Hakim
Was he critical of how you guys played cricket?
- [34:35]
Suleiman Khan
He was actually quite polite, yeah.
- [34:37]
Qasem Khan
He really wasn't. No, he wasn't at all, actually. No, he was. He said, you know, you either have the kind of passion to be professional and then he would push us, or if we didn't want to be, then play it for fun and enjoyment. I think he realized it was probably the last. And we're now kind of. We've gone from maybe back then we, you know, we did love it, but not the degree that we would play professionally. Now we're both kind of obsessed.
- [35:06]
Yalda Hakim
You talked about feeling helpless. I mean, what do you want the international community to do now? What would you like to tell global leaders? People like Donald Trump, for example. You were both in the US recently, and we've seen the evolving relationship, relationship between Pakistan and the Trump administration. What would you want to say?
- [35:27]
Suleiman Khan
I think at minimum, just to make sure that the standards of international human rights are being upheld and right now they're clearly being violated. And democracy in Pakistan is to see how it's being, how it's deteriorating. And yeah, essentially we just want to ensure that the basic human rights for our father are being respected and implement.
- [35:57]
Qasem Khan
The court orders, you know, respect the court orders and respect the rule of law, really. And allow him to see his personal position. That's massive. Obviously, allow, you know, basic human rights. It's those three things.
- [36:11]
Suleiman Khan
And also, if possible, independent monitoring of his condition. Conditions. Because we have no idea what it's like until someone goes to see him and speaks to him.
- [36:22]
Yalda Hakim
I spoke to a representative of the Pakistani government who said to me, you know, we don't have control over what the jail does and the jail staff and the treatment. And also brought up the 200 plus cases of corruption against him and various other cases. How do you react when you hear that from the Pakistani government?
- [36:44]
Qasem Khan
I mean, they're all crooks. They are the lowest of the low. They'll do whatever it takes, whether it's torture, whether it's disrespecting democracy and, you know, rigging an election. They'll take any sort of deal. They'll. And as you see with, you know, with Donald Trump, you know, they elected him. Him is for the Nobel Peace Prize. They'll do whatever it takes to stay in power, for wealth and for control. It's the current government and the army are. They're laughable. And it's very, very clear to see how corrupt they are if you do the slightest digging.
- [37:29]
Suleiman Khan
So.
- [37:32]
Qasem Khan
There'S not much you can say other than they're just. It's a crooked system run by crooked people.
- [37:37]
Suleiman Khan
Yeah, it's not even digging, really. I think the international media, it's been pretty widely reported that the previous elections in February 2024 were rigged. Their mandate is not, you know, PTI's mandate was essentially stolen. Everyone knows who the most popular leader in the country is.
- [37:59]
Qasem Khan
And the un, Amnesty International have all called it an arbitrary detainment.
- [38:05]
Yalda Hakim
I want to ask a little bit more about the fact that the army chief, Asim Munir, you know, they changed the constitution, he's given himself lifetime amnesty and, you know, immunity. I just wonder, Imran Khan, if he becomes aware of all of these changes, and he may be aware, it's hard to know what he would be thinking about all of these shifts and changes that, you know, we're seeing now in Pakistani politics.
- [38:34]
Suleiman Khan
I don't think he'd be surprised at all because I think it's quite clear that it was heading towards basically what it is now, which is a military dictatorship in everything but name. So I don't think he. I think he probably knows about this already. And the reason, part of the reason he's being silenced and isolated is because they know that he's inevitably not going to stand for this.
- [38:59]
Yalda Hakim
Do you think he'll ever get out?
- [39:03]
Qasem Khan
Right now, the conditions are getting worse. The people in power are becoming more entrenched, as you say. So it's very hard to see a way out. And a lot of the people we speak to, the kind of advisors, are seeming less and less confident every time we speak to them. So we're now worried we might never see him again. It's good to see this defense minister say, oh, welcome, Come, come. Because now we actually, you know, we have that recorded. We can, we can go over there and hopefully we can see him. But I still have my doubts.
- [39:40]
Suleiman Khan
Yeah. And also the fact that he's not the sort of person who's going to make any compromises or cut a deal. So. Yeah. And at the moment, that looks like the only easy route out. But I think international pressure is always an effective way of forcing change in these situations.
- [40:01]
Yalda Hakim
I wonder on messages. I mean, what you would say, firstly to the Pakistani government and what would you say to the Pakistani people? Because, you know, many say that they are too held hostage by corrupt governments and these authoritarians who are changing their constitution and it's going down a slippery slope of authoritarianism.
- [40:24]
Suleiman Khan
I would say to keep the faith and to keep. Keep making noise, even though the government and the establishment are trying to scare them into silence as much as. As possible, peacefully protest if you can.
- [40:40]
Yalda Hakim
As you say, you've been so. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of how much you can do, in terms of your activism. You have lobbied the UN and the special rapporteur has put out a very strong statement condemning his solitary confinement and saying it's against international law. What next for you guys in terms of what you do, you know, along these lines to try and get the word out there?
- [41:04]
Suleiman Khan
I think more media like this, to spread the word. And also we're looking to do more advocacy, to do trips maybe to Brussels or Geneva in January to speak to politicians and officials about this situation.
- [41:25]
Yalda Hakim
You talk about when you were little, four and six, the conversations that your father had with you as you were growing up. Did you think you would ever be in this position lobbying for his release from prison? Because, of course, the path that he was going down was always a dangerous path, you know, going into. There has been no leader of the country, a prime minister of Pakistan who hasn't spent time in prison since the creation of the state. It's always been that murky relationship between civilian government and the military and the intelligence agencies of the country. Did you think that you would be faced with this day?
- [42:02]
Qasem Khan
Yes, probably. Realistically, because we spent, you know, he, especially my brother, spent a lot of time asking him not to go into politics when there were kind of these dangerous characters killing people consistently. Everyone says, oh, you know, all of these Pakistani politicians, they go to prison. This is just completely different. They're not all tortured in solitary confinement cells and staying there for, you know, upwards of two years.
- [42:30]
Yalda Hakim
What do you think they're afraid of?
- [42:33]
Suleiman Khan
Popularity? Yeah, yeah.
- [42:34]
Qasem Khan
He's the most popular person in the country by a landslide. So the moment he's out, there's no chance they'll hold on to power. So they're desperately clinging onto it however they can.
- [42:47]
Richard Engel
Yalda fascinating and I'm really glad that we're focusing on this story. As you say, the Indian subcontinent, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, that region of Southeast Asia, sort of more broadly speaking, doesn't get enough coverage. I believe it's such a huge part of the world in terms of population, in terms of its political dynamic, its environmental impact, historic impact, a whole host of reasons, and it never makes the news. Europe is in the news a lot. The Middle east is in the news a lot. Lot. And that kind of tends to be it. So I'm glad on this podcast, we're. We're casting the net a little bit wider. So thank you for that. Fascinating.
- [43:27]
Yalda Hakim
Thank you so much, Richard. And that's a wrap for this week. We still have one more episode for you before we take a week off for Christmas and spend some time with our families. But make sure you don't miss that special Christmas episode and send us your thoughts at the usual place, the World at Sky. Thank you so much for listening. And Richard, until next time.
- [43:48]
Richard Engel
Until next time. And you know what? Before we go, I just want to say congratulations to Alexander. He's like my son. Alex is just turned six, right?
- [43:57]
Suleiman Khan
Yes, he's just turned six.
- [43:59]
Richard Engel
Theo is six. And he was there and he didn't make noise and he was good. And he let us finish this recording. And now you've got to take him to school before he. Before he. He loses it entirely and ruin.
- [44:11]
Qasem Khan
Ruins the broadcast.
- [44:12]
Yalda Hakim
You know what that. You know what that's like.
- [44:14]
Richard Engel
I've been looking at my door the whole time. We made it. We did it. Now let's take him to school. All right. It's been great catching up with you, and we'll. We'll talk soon. And I guess next one is the. This. This Christmas episode. That should be fun. I'm looking forward to that.
- [44:29]
Yalda Hakim
See you soon.
- [44:30]
Richard Engel
See you soon.
- [44:44]
Tommy Vietor
The world is on the brink. Wars, contentious elections, disinformation spreading at warp speed, and Donald Trump at the center of all of it. But what does it mean for the rest of us? Every week on Pots of the World, Tommy Vitor and I cut through the noise to explain how global power is shifting. No jargon, no homework. Just clear, honest conversations about what's happening and why. Why it matters. From breaking news to long, simmering international conflicts, we dissect it all with critical analysis and some jokes that will surely embarrass our children one day. Tune in to Pod Save the World every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts or catch it on YouTube.