← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
BONUS EPISODE: Trump bombs Iran
00:21:32
In this bonus episode, Richard and Yalda get together and talk about President Trump’s decision to strike three nuclear sites in Iran. Yalda is in Jerusalem and Richard is in Tel Aviv where both of them have been reporting all night long. Yalda...
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- [00:06]
Richard Engel
Tonight, I can report to the world that the strikes were a spectacular military success. Iran's key nuclear enrichment facilities have been completely and totally obliterated.
- [00:24]
Yalda Hakim
The US Administration holds sole and full responsibility for the consequences of its actions. Iran reserves all options to defend its.
- [00:36]
Richard Engel
Security interests and people.
- [00:44]
Yalda Hakim
Well, it finally happened in the early hours of the morning. America struck three nuclear sites in Iran.
- [00:51]
Richard Engel
With you in this special episode is me, Richard Engel in Tel Aviv and.
- [00:55]
Yalda Hakim
Me, Galda Hakim in Jerusalem.
- [00:57]
Richard Engel
Welcome to the world. Iran, the bully of the Middle east, must now make peace or there will be tragedy for Iran far greater than we have witnessed over the last eight days. American deterrence is back. When this president speaks, the world should listen.
- [01:25]
Yalda Hakim
So Richard, the world has been speculating for the last week since we saw Israel launch that surprise attack on Iran last Friday. Everyone has been asking, is the United States going to get involved? And Donald Trump, at different points, sort of issued different statements and said different things that kind of confused everyone about what his position would be. And finally, though, overnight, in the early hours of the morning, about 2:30 in the morning here in Israel, we got the news that the President of the United States had given the green light, the go ahead, to strike three nuclear sites. Fordeau, Natanz, Isfahan.
- [02:03]
Richard Engel
So I'm here in Tel Aviv and I haven't slept. Have you gotten any sleep? I mean, it's been one of these.
- [02:08]
Yalda Hakim
No sleep whatsoever.
- [02:09]
Richard Engel
So it was about what, 2:30 in the morning that I got a tip off that something was coming. Be ready. It's happening. I gotta tell you, I was totally surprised. You know, we've talked about this a lot on this podcast. Was it a good idea? Was this coming? Was it inevitable? Was this all precooked? Were these negotiations a sham? Were they ruse? It seemed like this was coming at some stage, but I thought this two week window was real. I thought, okay, they were going to give two weeks to have some diplomacy, see if the Iranians could change their opinion about the right to enrich uranium for civilian purposes with this sword dangling over their head. Instead, before light, the sword had dropped and there was these three massive explosions. I assume it's been pretty similar to you. You're in Jerusalem, right?
- [02:57]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, I'm currently in Jerusalem. And Richard, I had some meetings in the early hours of the morning yesterday. I met with some Israeli officials who hinted to me that I should be ready. They said roughly one o' clock in the morning something would happen.
- [03:11]
Richard Engel
The doctor, that's very specific.
- [03:13]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, it was quite specific. In fact, it happened Sort of an hour and a half later. And one of my other colleagues was told 2 o' clock in the morning. So we were exchanging notes between us from the conversations that we were having.
- [03:22]
Richard Engel
Well, thanks for the call.
- [03:24]
Yalda Hakim
I'm sorry, I should have maybe given you a heads up.
- [03:26]
Richard Engel
Anyway, I got a few more minutes sleep than you did.
- [03:27]
Yalda Hakim
Well, we didn't, because what we then did was decide to sleep in our bureau. So I'm currently at the American colony in Jerusalem and we always stay here. But last night we decided to cancel our programs in the afternoon because I thought this is going to be an all nighter. If the information the Israelis are giving me is correct, then we are going to be doing this, you know, for the next 24 hours, 48 hours without any sleep. So we packed our overnight bags, we headed to our bureau in East Jerusalem, which is overlooking the bulk of Jerusalem.
- [03:59]
Richard Engel
So you were totally prepared? My experience was totally different. It was just we happened to all be living in the same place overlooking Tel Aviv. We got a 10, 15 minute heads up and boom, we were, you know, in front of camera two seconds later. So different experiences. But here we are. Now, what did you think?
- [04:14]
Yalda Hakim
So like I said, I took a nap in the bureau after I did the main 10 o' clock evening program. And I was suddenly woken up at about sort of 2:30 in the morning our time saying, it's happened, get ready, you're going on air. And so I guess again, because of this speculation that was swirling 24 hours earlier, it didn't come as a complete and total surprise, perhaps not the kind of surprise that my colleagues in D.C. said they felt because the mood music there was. The President is, you know, wanting that two week window. He's having his briefings with the National Security Council and you know, we'll see how we go. And we now realize some of the things they did, for example, where they were sending the B2s westwards, you know, towards Guam, there are a lot of questions around that, like, are the Americans sending a signal to the Chinese, we are busy here in the Middle East. You make sure that you don't get any funny ideas.
- [05:07]
Richard Engel
Well, that's what they claimed they were doing. That was the official explanation. It was a diversionary tactic. We're going to send these B2s to threaten China so they don't get any ideas about Taiwan. But then some of those B2s kind of broke off and joined up with other aircraft and attacked the site. So technically speaking, you got to give it to the Americans. They do this well, the US Military does this kind of thing. Well, the bigger question is, should they have done it and where is it going to take us? But yes, technically speaking, the US Military does this kind of thing extraordinarily well. You know, they weren't shot at.125 different aircraft involved, many of them refueling in midair, flying across continents, technically speaking, logistically speaking, militarily speaking, a hugely successful operation, very expensive, the kind that, frankly speaking, I'm not saying this as an American trying to be all jingoistic, but it really takes a lot of capacity and expertise and training and practice to do this kind of thing. But where is it taking us?
- [06:08]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, well, when we talk about 125 aircraft, military aircraft that was involved in this, we have to remember that the B2s are just this tip of the spear. You know, you've got refueling tankers, all the surveillance aircraft. And I think one of the big things that came out of the conference, the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, gave alongside the Joint Chief's chairman, General Kane, that they were talking about the battle damage assessment and that they're not quite yet sure what the actual damage is. And my Israeli contacts have told me that American officials have told them that there has been heavy, heavy damage, but not quite sure whether it has actually destroyed any of these facilities. So we have to wait and see. And what I think the Americans have also made clear is we are willing and able to strike again. And so the big question then is, where does this go? How does this end? One of the things that the Israelis said to me is that Donald Trump, one of the questions he would have asked before giving the green light around this is what does the next day look like? Not what it looks like in a year's time, not what it looks like in six months time. He wants to know what this looks like the day after and the week after. Because the one thing that this administration has made clear is they don't want boots on the ground and they certainly don't want to get engaged in kind of a long term conflict in the Middle East.
- [07:29]
Richard Engel
So before we get into the meaning and are we now entering into a long term conflict in the Middle East? Sometimes when the news comes in so fast and it can be like drinking out of a fire hose, let's explain a little bit about what happened. So there had been this two week theoretical pause. Now, maybe this was all a game, maybe this was all a delay tactic. The Iranians certainly feel like they were being strung along the Iranian foreign Minister in Switzerland and he thought he was engaged in active negotiations. They thought this process was underway. All right. Then in the middle of the night, there was this diversionary tactic. Air125 aircraft. Also submarines were involved. About two dozen Tomahawk cruise missiles fired from submarines. These three main nuclear sites pounded by these enormous bunker busters. The first time they've ever been used in combat. These £30,000 bombs dropped from B2 stealth aircraft, the most complex B2 stealth operation launched in history. The whole thing lasted about 25 minutes. Militarily speaking, a huge success. But back to your question. Where does this go? Where does this leave us? Are we now on the brink of a, of a regional war? You've got great contacts in the region. What are you hearing from, from your people?
- [08:48]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, I think we need to think about, you know, how many countries in this region are impacted, you know, whether that's Israel, Jordan, Bahra, Qatar, the uae, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq. All of these places are on edge at the moment. You know, they're keeping their heads down because they don't want to say anything that frankly gets either side frustrated or annoyed or suddenly they are in the firing line. I think on the one hand that they're. What I'm hearing, you know, off the record from some of these leaders in the region is relief that there probably won't be a race to a bomb anytime soon. But I think we need to ask ourselves some key questions, certain questions that have come out of this. First of all, we talked about the battle damage assessment. The United States still doesn't know, and it says that they're still assessing what the damage is, the next question that I want to ask is, you know, what's left of the current nuclear program? How much did they actually disperse before these actual strikes took place? Are there secret enrichment sites? And, you know, while we want to say that this is a one and done, mission accomplished moment and that this has ended the program, we both know and everyone knows, far more complex than that. And I think the next thing we need to look at is what will the Iranian response be? Because we know that we didn't get here because of the pragmatism of the Supreme Leader. The United States feels that at every different twist and turn over the past, whether it was 60 days or the last week and a half, that they gave the Iranians a number of chances to have an off ramp, you know, take whatever deal came their way. We went from the US President saying, come to the negotiating table, make a deal to surrender. Now to a series of strikes. So you know, so the region, I think, is on edge because they are anticipating a response and retaliation.
- [10:38]
Richard Engel
One of the things I think we can help people do is understand what just happened, where this is going and the risk, because the way that Iran has been pursuing both a civilian program and allegedly a nuclear weapon program, although there's no clear evidence that they one, they don't have a bomb. Nobody says they have an actual nuclear weapon. This was all preemptive. So it's important to understand the process a little bit. And you don't need to be a nuclear physicist to get it. You take uranium out of the ground. It's a naturally radioactive material, and it's converted into a gas. Then it's spun, literally spun at high speed in centrifuges. So that's why there's all this, you know, sanctions effort to limit the centrifuges. The centrifuges spin at enormous speed, spinning this gas. And what happens when you spin a gas, like if you spin blood in a centrifuge, in a hospital, the heaviest bits go to the end. It's more, quote, unquote, enriched. Then you take that enriched uranium and you spin it again. It was called a cascade. And you keep spinning it and spinning it and spinning it and spinning it until it becomes highly enriched. And you need to get to 90% enriched in order to make it go bang and turn into a nuclear bomb. You only need 3 or 4% in order to use it for nuclear fuel. And this has been at the whole crux of the issue, the 3% to 60% to 90%. And Iran's position was we will enrich to 3% or 4%, and we must enrich to that because we cannot accept anything less. And I remember, I did not remember. I spoke to Iranian officials, like, really, is this that big of a deal? Are you going to lose everything potentially so that you can have the ability to enrich to 3 or 4%? And it became a bit of an issue of national pride. We are going to do this, but we will never make a bomb. But it gave them the capacity to go to 60% and then to 90% if you just keep enriching this stuff. And what they bombed were the enrichment facilities, the ones, these cascades of centrifuges that are scattered in several locations. The most important one being at Firdu, buried underground. And you remember, these things are quite sensitive, so if you drop a big bomb on them, they're probably gonna break. So that's what we've been dealing with. And it's been Iran's insistence. It said it was a red line. We must have the ability to enrich to a low level. And the US And Israelis saying, we don't believe you, you are going to continue to enrich to a higher level and one day make a bomb. That's what this whole thing is about, the enrichment carried out inside a mountain.
- [13:17]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. And I guess the other big question is, you know, what environmental and radiological damage has this attack actually done? But if we look at the point you just made about why Israel, the United States don't want Iran to acquire a bomb, I guess when just being here in Israel, you realize despite this being an incredibly divided society, despite half a million people at some points have come out to demonstrate against Benjamin Netanyahu. They're angry about the hostages still being there. They're angry that there's still no deal around the Gaza war. They have aligned themselves behind him and stood by him when it has come to this decision to go after Iran and attack. So I guess the question then is what hasn't changed in this scenario? Despite what's happened in the last week, despite what's happened in the last 24 hours, what hasn't changed? Iran still has a large stockpile of ballistic missiles. Just this morning, we had a barrage of ballistic missiles launched on us here across Israel in central Israel. So we know that remains. Could this turn into a war of attrition where, you know, the Israeli public, the Iranians have been deeply worried about how this thing has evolved, the fact that they've been rushing for the poor Iranians. They don't have bunkers and shelters to go to. But in Israel, the system is very clear. There are alarms, there are sirens, there are notifications on your phone. And you have, you know, five, six, seven minutes to get yourself to a shelter. That's why we haven't seen the death toll as high. And I guess finally, for me, Richard, how does this end? You know, the Israelis have continued to talk about regime change that is now almost off the table. And I gu. Yes, for the Israelis, they think, well, at least it is now a weakened regime. But I don't actually see regime change in all of this.
- [15:06]
Richard Engel
Well, I don't know. It could get to regime change. You know, the Israeli defense minister said the supreme leader shouldn't exist anymore. There's been some phenomenal reporting in the Washington Post how the Supreme Leader, who's 86, has already put out sort of a succession plan naming certain deputies, not his son among them, which is quite significant, that he's taking this moment as an existential threat, not only to his personal safety, but to the regime's safety. One of the things I worry about is when they're doing this battle damage assessment, okay, I think they'll get a pretty good idea of did they destroy Firdu, did they destroy Natanz? Is this facility, this laboratory, now buried and irreparable? But what about 400 kilos of 60% enriched uranium, which without too much effort, although you still do need the centrifuges, but if you still have this more highly enriched uranium, 400 kilos is hard to find in a giant country. And I worry that now we're going to enter this kind of whack, a mole game where because the Iranians say they got rid of the stuff from these facilities. So I'm worried about the stuff and how are they going to get full accountability on that in a battle damage assessment? And I'm not sure they are going to be able to get that.
- [16:19]
Yalda Hakim
So, Richard, just your predictions then over the next few days and weeks to come in terms of this situation?
- [16:26]
Richard Engel
Well, I think Iran is going to respond in some way. They have to show people, talk about they need to show their own people. I don't think the people care if the Iranian regime really shows strength. They've got to show their own security services. They've got to show the generals who are fighting that they're still in the fight. So I think there will be some sort of response. There's already been a response against Israel. But the Iranians say they want to go back to the negotiating table. They're not in a very strong position. They've lost their proxies. The US clearly doesn't want to invade. The big difference between 2002, 2003 and now is they're not 100,000American troops about to go to Tehran. They're not. So this is an air campaign. So there is still a way for the Iranian regime to step back from the brink and say, fine, let's negotiate, and they can claim they still have a nuclear program. It's not that the Iranian people were ever going into these underground silos and seeing the centrifuges spinning. If they want survival, they can probably find a window to do it. But I think that the ball has been put in their court and any tiny move that they do is going to be scrutinized in a way that they feel is unfair, that they were attacked, even though they claim they didn't do anything, that they feel they should be given the benefit of the doubt. And many people in the United States, certainly in Israel, don't believe Iran deserves to get the benefit of the doubt. And Iran says we're being treated unfairly. And the answer sort of coming from here is, yes, you are. So what are you going to do about it? And I think right now they're risking their own survival. So if they attack in a big way, I think this continues to escalate. If this stuff is missing and they claim to have it and are weaponizing it, then I think it escalates very rapidly. But if they move to negotiations, maybe they can hold on to what they've got left.
- [18:15]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. And I think for Benjamin Netanyahu, this has been a huge military and diplomatic coup. He's got Donald Trump where he wanted to get Donald Trump. He managed to convince him to launch these strikes on Iran. He's managed to convince his public that he has made the right decision to protect and be Mr. Security. And I guess for him, he saw it as part of his legacy and making history. And I guess it goes back to the question that we were posing earlier in terms of, you know, how I think this might end. I see a couple of scenarios. Part of that is the question around regime change and whether the regime negotiates or capitulates, whether it's because the supreme leader steps to one side or whether he's killed. We may see a weakened regime in the next weeks and months. And then, you know, we'll have to wait and see what actually happens within Iranian society. Right now. Just like Israel, Iranian people are angry about the fact that their cities are being bombed, that they're being forced out of their homes. We saw thousands of people in traffic jams trying to leave either their cities or their country. We haven't seen a mass exodus outside of the country, but we're certainly hearing movement of people into places like Azerbaijan, Turkey, Afghanistan, Armenia. So Iranians feel destabilized at this point in time. And once the dust settles and once, and, you know, I don't think it's a matter of if, but when Iran responds, there is no love lost between this regime and the bulk of the Iranian public who loathe the way that they have been treated and whether or not they have been competent in how they've handled the last week or miscalculated, the one thing they are really good at is oppressing and suppressing their people. And so we'll have to wait and see how things evolve. And of course, we'll be monitoring all the developments here as, as things go.
- [20:05]
Richard Engel
Great to have a special episode. We've all got to get back to our work. Got to get back on camera. Can I leave our listeners with one thought? And I keep talking about this parallel between 2002 and 2003 and now, and that's really clear in my mind because I was in Baghdad during the fall of Baghdad. I was in Iraq when Saddam was there and I was watching him destroying his own missiles, saying that he wanted to negotiate. The number of parallels are significant and will stop you in your tracks if you think about them. But the big difference is in 2002, 2003, there were a hundred thousand troops heading toward Baghdad who would then interact with the Iraqi people and not know how to do it. And it became an occupation and a total debacle. This time they're trying to do an air campaign, support Israel and do it one and done. But it is a dangerous thing to be standing on a very slippery slope that we have slid down in the past.
- [21:03]
Yalda Hakim
Well, as you say, Richard, we'll be watching things very closely. Really good to see you again. Stay safe and thank you to all of our listeners for listening again. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and send. Send us your thoughts at the usual place, the worldky.uk Great to see you, Yalda.
- [21:20]
Richard Engel
Until next time.
- [21:20]
Yalda Hakim
Goodbye.
- [21:21]
Richard Engel
Bye.