← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Loading summary
Transcript45 lines
- [00:03]
A
Sky News, the full story first. Hello, it's me, Yelda from a very cold London.
- [00:20]
B
And me, Richard Engel, back in Colombia. Only one week into the new year and already so much has happened. Welcome to the world podcast.
- [00:38]
C
At my direction, the United States armed forces conducted an extraordinary military operation in the capital of Venezuela, overwhelming American military power. Air, land and sea was used to launch a spectacular assault. And it was a assault like people have not seen since World War II.
- [01:18]
A
And, Richard, I know we've got so much to talk about, but just very quickly, how was your break? Have you had to cut it short? Jump on a plane to South America?
- [01:28]
B
My break was fantastic. I was in Sicily, which, as you know, I love. I always go to. We were there together, and I was actually in a cow pasture. I was surrounded by cows and in the middle of no place when word came that there was this mysterious explosion. And then we learned that Maduro had been taken by U.S. special forces. So I did the first several hours of, of reporting, working the phones, going on air, doing phoners from a cow pasture, and then I jumped on. I took me four flights, four separate flights. Some of them I had to check out, recheck in, get my bags, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, now I'm here in South America and it, you know, we're back at it.
- [02:18]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, as you say, it hasn't been a quiet start to 2026. I was actually in Sydney, Australia. It was about 27 degrees with my family. I spent Christmas and New Year back in Oz, and I, you know, saw this sort of whole thing unfold our Saturday night because, of course, Australia is so far ahead. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a, you know, almost like a time capsule where I go into the future and then when I return, I'm. I'm coming back into the past. And it was. It was extraordinary. I mean, just the whole thing, absolutely incredible, audacious operation that took place. And we're going to get into that in a moment.
- [03:05]
B
So much to talk about. You know, we say that a lot, but this time, you know what it really feels like? It feels like we are just beginning, that this operation has opened the door and that we're all heading down a corridor to some uncharted territory.
- [03:21]
A
It feels like he's put friends and foes on notice. So let's. Let's get going. Please follow us wherever you're listening on Spotify, on Apple, or subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you have any questions, which you often do, and we get those questions, you can write to us@theworldsky.uk and we'll try our best to answer them next week.
- [03:56]
B
Why don't you explain what happened over the weekend in, in Venezuela.
- [04:01]
A
Yeah, Richard, as I said, I mean, extraordinary events, frankly. I was getting texts from friends who were watching in the United States, in national security circles and foreign policy circles, saying this is absolutely bananas what's unfolded in Venezuela. But basically, in the early hours of Saturday 3rd January, about 22am in, in Caracas, US Special Ops went into the capital of Venezuela, stormed Nicolas Maduro's compound, battled with his security before what they say was the capturing of Nicolas Maduro. They handcuffed him, they blindfolded him, along with his wife, who's also a significant figure in, within the regime, putting him on a ship alongside her, the USS Iwo Jima to the United States. But just let's rewind a few months because since the summer, frankly, President Trump has been piling on the pressure to get Maduro to, to leave Venezuela on, on his own accord. He was designated as leader of a drug cartel that was labeled a terrorist organization. And while this has been going on, the Americans have been trying to choke the economy by targeting Venezuelan oil tankers and get him, frankly, out of the way. Why should Maduro take your threats serious seriously?
- [05:32]
C
And he can do whatever he wants. We have a massive armada for him, the biggest we've ever had and by far the biggest we've ever had in South America. He could do whatever he wants. It's all right, whatever he wants to do, if he wants to do something, if he plays tough, it'll be the last time he's ever able to play tough.
- [05:53]
B
Also, we should talk about the CIA, because CIA agents were in Venezuela for months before the, this snatch and grab operation, learning absolutely everything they could about Maduro. Those, those special operators, CIA agents were learning everything about where he, what he eats, where he moves, the patterns of his day, who he talks to, where he travels. They even have a mock up of his compound built in Kentucky in the United States so that these special operators would know exactly how to get in, how to get out, how to find him, and obviously not get hurt. They wanted to capture him. This is the kind of, that U.S. special Operations forces have done before. They used it when they got Osama bin Laden. But it, it all shows how deeply penetrated the Maduro regime was before this happened.
- [06:44]
A
Yeah, we'll, we'll talk about the penetration of this regime in a moment because that is so, so fascinating. But it, it, it then brings us to this sort of extraordinary 24, I mean, frankly, 48 hours, which suddenly we saw Maduro in New York handcuffed and shackled and accused of, of narco terrorism conspiracy, amongst, frankly, a number of other charges. He was brought to court where he shouts that he had been kidnapped and says, I am innocent. I'm a decent man, a prisoner of war. Along with his wife, Celia Flores, he pleaded not guilty to drugs and weapons charges. Then that brings us, Richard, back in Venezuela and, and where we are. Vice President Del C. Rodriguez was sworn in as interim president, so she, a Maduro ally, still in charge, but Trump warning that frankly, a big price could be paid if she doesn't comply with what Trump wants. The whole thing is, frankly, mind boggling, Richard, but you're in the region now, you're in Colombia. Just give us a sense of the mood and, and what's going on there.
- [07:58]
B
People here in this region think that Trump is dividing up the planet, that he has taken Latin America as his own, all of it, and specifically taken Venezuela and says that Venezuela was stolen from him and that he wants Venezuela to become effectively an American colony. Open it up to the oil business and keep the current regime more or less in place, but keep it compliant. And he's threatened the Vice President, Del C. Rodriguez saying, and he almost threatened her life saying if she doesn't comply, worse things will happen to her than happen to Maduro. And what's worse than being arrested would be a kill operation. And according to some reporting NBC has gotten, the moderator of Meet the Press spoke with Trump just the other day, and he says, oh, no, Elsie's playing ball. She gets it. And if she doesn't get it, she knows what's gonna happen to her. So here in the region, many people feel that they've become pawns, that Trump is just sort of unilaterally taken them under his wing. He wants the oil from Venezuela, but that Cuba's next. He's made threats against this country. He's made threats against Mexico. He's previously made threats on Panama. And that, as we talked about right from the beginning, he wants to be not just the head of the United States, not just America first, but the Americas first, North, south and Central. And it's not based on nothing. It's what President Trump and the official State Department are saying is what he wants.
- [09:48]
A
To me, I think what's extraordinary about this and why in that moment there was sudden perhaps hope in Venezuela that. Hang on a second, is this destruction of the regime Is this the beginning of the end for this brutal, repressive regime that started with Hugo Chavez, the charismatic socialist leader that took Venezuela down this slippery slide of corruption and repression? And he handed, after he died from cancer in 2013, handed power over to Nicolas Maduro. Is this the end of this? A regime that has not only caused a quarter of the country, 8 million Venezuelans, to flee this crackdown on dissent within the country, even in the last few days, frankly, since this operation, a corrupt, brutal regime that has brutalized and terrorized its own population and, frankly, been a sworn enemy of the United States for a couple of decades now, is this the end of it? What we're seeing now is not regime destruction. It's not regime change. It's not even leadership change. What we're seeing from the Trump administration is a direct warning to Delsey Rodriguez, now the interim president of Venezuela. We want to see behavior change. We couldn't work with Nicolas Maduro. We're not interested in democracy here. We're interested in basically having a foothold in what we believe is our playground, our backyard. And you can either alter your behavior and comply, or you can face the similar fate to your leader, Nicolas Maduro.
- [11:38]
B
And that has a long precedent in American politics, where the United States wanted to establish its own sphere of influence, and it did so in a series of steps. President Trump talks about the Monroe Doctrine. And the Monroe Doctrine said basically that America is going to dominate the areas around it and that countries, particularly in Latin America, because they had broken away from Spanish colonial rule. He said, these countries, Latin America, will not join alliances with other great empires, that if they're going to form an alliance with anyone, they're going to belong to the United States. So the US Wanted to protect its area and saw these newly independent Latin states as up for grabs and issued this doctrine saying, no, these areas are going to belong to us or fall under our sphere of influence. I went to Venezuela many years back, and we'll talk about why I'm not there now and nobody else is there now is because they're not letting us in. But when I was there, it was desperate. People couldn't feed themselves. The prices of basic items were stupid. If you weren't corrupt and you weren't playing the currencies and you didn't have friends in the government, you could not feed yourselves. And 90% of the people, Venezuela, cannot feed themselves. So few people are crying for Nicolas Maduro. But the idea that President Trump just comes in and says, okay, Maduro's gone. The old Regime stays, but now it's going to work for us or else we're going to eliminate her and whoever else replaces her. I don't think that's necessarily what Venezuelans expected. And it has huge implications because President Trump's saying, this is our hemisphere, Venezuela's ours. Cuba probably next. These are all our countries, our hemisphere. Well, then China says, well, what about us? This is ours. We're going to take Taiwan, that belongs to us. And Russia could say, well, this is our hemisphere. Ukraine is ours. We're just going to keep going. So the, the ramifications are huge. And, and, and I think, well, it's just starting. Welcome to 2026 Yalda.
- [14:01]
A
I mean, a new year, and this is just the very beginning. But Richard, you know, we've said this on this podcast before. Nothing that Donald Trump is doing is not what he has said. He has made a lot of this very clear. He warned Nicolas Maduro, he has talked about wanting more influence over the Western hemisphere. Frankly, four weeks ago, when he launched his national security strategy, we. About that national security strategy, and he talked about the need to have more influence over the, the Western Hemisphere. And so nothing that Donald Trump is saying should come as a surprise. And frankly, suddenly everyone in the region, in, in that region and, and across the world, whether it's the Chinese, the Russians, the Iranians, the Venezuelans, the Colombians, the Cubans are all sitting up and saying, okay, hang on a second.
- [14:58]
B
He's actually doing it.
- [14:59]
A
He's, he's actually doing what? That every time Donald Trump speaks, we should take it seriously. During his first administration, he was mocked and he was sort of seen as this sort of almost buffoon. But, but here we are. And, you know, time and time again, he says, I'm gonna do X. And then he does it, and we sort of act surprised about how the whole thing has, frankly, unfolded. I wanna talk a little bit. Pick up on the point that you've just made about Venezuelans starving. And, you know, this country which has the biggest oil reserves on the planet, and yet the population are starving. And that really does come down to, if we go back to Hugo Chavez and the fact that he nationalized the oil production, the crude oil that Venezuela produces, he nationalized all of this. And that meant he kicked out a lot of these American companies. So when Trump says, I want to reclaim what belongs to us, or, you know, we've been robbed, he is pointing to the fact that once upon a time, the United States just a few decades ago, had huge influence over, and control over the oil production through these private companies, oil companies in Venezuela. And then Hugo Chavez, a socialist, wanted to nationalize everything and these American companies were kicked out. So Donald Trump almost feels as though it's his God given right when he talks about Venezuelan oil. And some people are sort of thinking, hang on a second, here you are, you know, is this about drugs? Is it about spheres of influence and the Chinese having more influence? Or is it simply more than that? Is it about, about oil? Delsey Rodriguez, frankly, is a pragmatist. And she's clearly sent, I mean, we saw her in the first instance, you know, come out and say, Nicolas Maduro remains the president of this country. You've attacked a sovereign nation and we will not be slaves of any empire. And within 24 hours, she offer the Trump administration, you know, whether she needed to do that for domestic consumption. But within 24 hours, she softened her tone, offered an olive branch. And it could be that the opposition has been sidelined, the likes of the Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Karina Machado, like so many people, were shocked about the fact that she was sidelined. And she was, you know, this was her big moment. She is a purist when it comes to freedom, democracy, human rights, fighting for the basic rights of the Venezuelan.
- [17:41]
B
Have you heard President Trump talk about any of those things?
- [17:44]
A
No, not at all.
- [17:44]
B
As he talk about democracy, as he talked about human rights, when he talked about Venezuela, he talked about drugs a little bit. Drugs were the pretext, but once the operation was done, it was about oil and taking back what was ours. Venezuela has enormous untapped oil potential, particularly of a heavy kind of oil that is very useful for the American industrial base. That's why I keep saying, I think we're just getting started here.
- [18:13]
A
Yeah, absolutely. The crude oil that you're talking about, and despite having the largest reserves in the world, they only produce, I mean, frankly, less than 1% of the world's oil production. So when Donald Trump says there's huge potential and we're going to tap into it, he's very, very serious about it. And he's right. I mean, the reason why Venezuela hasn't been able to tap into its own oil reserve serves is because of mismanagement, because of corruption, because of the lack of the infrastructure and investment in, in the infrastructure over the course of the last couple of decades or so. So there is potential, but oil companies need certainty to operate within a state. And frankly, right now things remain deeply uncertain in Venezuela. But Venezuela also holds significant rare earth deposits. And this is something that Donald Trump is very keen on when he's struck other deals. I mean, he's so transactional in his approach. And rare earth minerals, because of this race with China, is something that Donald Trump has set his sights on. And we know that China very much dominates that space and has invested in it for decades. I'm just going to talk you through this bit by bit, Richard, because it is. Is quite complex. But there are roughly 50 minerals classified as essential to national security. And the US is frankly, highly reliant on importing more than half of those. So this also makes it appealing for the US to take control of Venezuela. These, frankly, go into everything, AI, mobile phones, military equipment and tech. Anything that you can basically turn on and off are reliant on rare earth minerals. And right now, as I said, China, China dominates this space. Donald Trump has vowed to get the United States up to speed over the course of the next two to five years. But, but frankly, China has been investing in this for more than 30 years. So Donald Trump is, is in this race. He's a transactional leader, and he's looking for ways in which he can speed this up for, for the United States.
- [20:38]
B
Absolutely. So there's many in the Trump administration appear to. I don't even think I need to say appear, because they're openly talking about it. They see Venezuela as ripe for exploitation, that it has lots of things that can make the United States wealthy, that can make Venezuelans wealthy. People see that Venezuela has a lot to offer that it is currently not offering. And the Trump administration's calculation is, fine, we'll keep these new, these, these thugs in place until eventually, maybe there's a transition to democracy. But what do you, what do you think? How do you see the world reacting to this? How do you see China behaving? How do you see Russia behaving? How do you see Europe taking in all of this and this realignment of the, the sort of global political order?
- [21:35]
A
Well, well, frankly, on Venezuela, we've seen the Europeans be quite cautious about how they deal with this. I mean, so many questions about whether, you know, international law has been broken or not is coming up. And, and while there's no love lost for a Nicolas Maduro, who was not the legitimate leader of Venezuela, he stopped the election that took place in 2024. Yet can a state just go in and pluck the sitting president of a country and whisk them away and then hold them on trial in another country because they've been accused of drug smuggling and various other crimes? I think what's interesting about Venezuela was also its relationship with China. Xi Jinping and Nicolas Maduro came into power nine days apart in 2013. It was Nicolas Maduro first, and then a week and a half later, Xi Jinping was appointed president of China. A year after becoming president of China, Xi Jinping visited Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela. They have had a cordial relationship, a working relationship. China has invested in Venezuelan oil. It has bypass U.S. sanctions. It has worked very closely to sort of inject its influence over Venezuela politically, economically, strategically. And that is what has irked this particular administration. So I think the removal of Nicolas Maduro, while it hasn't been regime destruction or regime change, Xi Jinping will still personally feel it because of his relationship with Nicolas Maduro as president of Venezuela. But it also puts a big spotlight on Chinese power. If we go back to what happened in the Middle east, frankly, almost a year ago, when Israel and the United States targeted Iran's nuclear facilities, China basically came out and condemned it. Equally, they've condemned what's happened to Nicolas Maduro. But what can they actually do about it? I think, you know, when we talk about Chinese power, it does put a spotlight on the influence that China has. Sure. But also, where does this leave Chinese power? What can China actually do about the United States's actions now?
- [24:18]
B
They could grab Taiwan.
- [24:20]
A
Well, on that point. On that point, Richard, they are watching it. But I think it's interesting because it's not international law holding Xi Jinping back. You know, Xi Jinping isn't thinking, I'm going to defy international law. And, you know, and that's what's stopping me from taking Taiwan. It believes this is a domestic issue. Taiwan is a domestic issue for Xi Jinping and the Chinese. They are waiting for the right conditions. They are not waiting for how the world might react to this. They are wondering, if we move on Taiwan, can it be as quick and swift and easy as what Donald Trump has done in Venezuela? And frankly, we're talking about a democracy, a democracy in Taiwan that has a very strong military now. And the military of Taiwan has had a significant boost given when they've looked over at Ukraine and realized what the Russians have done to Ukraine, they've learned lessons from that, so made huge investments in their military. And. And so will it be as easy and swift? I doubt it. And I don't think that China is looking at the United States and thinking, hm, I wonder if I should do that or not, because I'd be defying international law. And how will the world react? All they're thinking about. And their calculus is this is a domestic issue about reunification. Are the conditions right? How much pushback are we going to get within Taiwan in terms of how quickly it can fold without it being a massive pushback? So I agree that China is looking at this as a great playbook. I can do this if the time is right. And how much is the world likely to react given what the United States has done? But equally, I think their calculus is we'll do it on our terms when we think it's the best time.
- [26:16]
B
Okay, let's take a break now. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Greenland. And and also one more thing. You reminded me of an old story, how Nicholas was acting in court when he was brought in in New York. I was in court when Saddam Hussein was brought in. And believe it or not, he said the exact same thing as Maduro said. Let's take that break and we'll pick up on the.
- [27:02]
A
So, Richard, let's talk about Greenland because, you know, we've talked about the Western Hemisphere and the fact that Donald Trump said he was going to go after Venezuela and the Venezuelan leader. And he did that, you know, he, he warned Nicolas Maduro for months during the summ and over the course of the last few months on that side of Christmas, here we are in the new Year and he acted he's now threatening Greenland in a very blatant way. And rather than Europeans dismissing it, they're saying Trump is serious and, you know, enough is enough. Stop with these things. I think he's serious.
- [27:41]
B
I think he's serious.
- [27:43]
C
Right now, Greenland is covered with Russian and Chinese ships all over the place. We need Greenland from the standpoint of national security. And Denmark is not going to be.
- [27:54]
B
Able to do it. I can tell you it's right above Canada. He also wants Canada. He's already declared, you know, it could be a 51st state because it's full of resources. The more and more of the minerals are being exposed, unfortunately, by climate change, as the ice is some, in some cases thinning and melting. And it's really cold. And what does really does well in really cold climates, these AI power centers, these AI tech parks. And Americans are increasingly concerned that one, they're really noisy and they consume a lot of electricity from the power grid. And the United States doesn't have enough power to to provide all the tech that that AI to provide all the electricity that AI needs. So you make Greenland basically a giant battery for the AI brain of the future. And he wants It. And so does Elon Musk. Did you see they've reconciled. He was at dinner with Trump just the other day ago and put out a post on X saying it's going to be a fantastic 2026. So they've got plans.
- [29:06]
A
When I interviewed Donald Trump's son, Don Jr. One of the things that he wanted to be, the, the headline, the interview, was that Elon Musk was back in the fold. Elon Musk was back in terms of relations with the Trump administration, with Donald Trump. So it's interesting now to see them together again, traveling together again, meeting up, discussing these critical issues. So, Richard, during Donald Trump's first term, he floated the idea of a takeover of Greenland and know he was almost laughed at and this idea was dismissed. But this second time round, you know, he talked about it at the, at the beginning of the year and, and again, the Danes were sort of like, what are you talking about? Let's not indulge this.
- [29:57]
B
Yeah, but this time around, this is ridiculous.
- [30:01]
A
But this time around, you know, frankly, he's making direct threats. And after what's happened in Venezuela, the Europeans are on edge, taking it incredibly seriously. And, and the Americans, in the meantime, have actively been trying to create some kind of wedge between the Greenlanders and denmark. We saw J.D. vance make a number of trips there, saying that he was supporting the independence of Greenland and he was supporting the will of the people of Greenland, saying that Denmark hadn't done enough for them. So. So there has been this sort of almost slow attempt at creating some kind of rift. And don't forget, I mean, Greenland's made up of about 56,000 people and suddenly it's on the map as this significant talking point. And I just want to go through some of the reaction. So we've been hearing from the Danes and the Prime Minister there has said, you know, if Donald Trump moves on Greenland, this could be the end of NATO. So quite a significant statement to make. Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, who frankly talked about the importance of international law when it came to Venezuela, but didn't say much more, said only Greenland should decide its future. So there has been pushback from the Europeans. They issued a joint statement as well, you know, standing in support of Denmark and also saying that the affairs of Greenland should be managed by Trump, could.
- [31:38]
B
Care less about European pushbacks. He could care until Europe has its own army and can defend itself and really push back. If Denmark makes noise or Keir Starmer complains and then goes to Washington and goes and kisses the ring I don't think that means much to Trump. We're gonna do our predictions in a minute. Our first predictions of the new year. I'll hint mine is definitely Greenland because I think he's serious. You were talking about Trump in his first term and why he's different in this. This term. One, his first term was kind of overshadowed by Covid. Right. Not much happened during his first term. Everyone was kind of at home tending to their families and, and, and, you know, there were lockdowns and things did happen, but it was a generally quiet time in global affairs. China shut down. You couldn't go to China, you couldn't go to Japan. Couldn't really travel within Europe, so. So his first term was kind of overshadowed by this pandemic, and he was surrounded by people who didn't like him. His national security team was often trying to rein him in to hold him back. A lot of the people were secretly working against him. He got rid of all those people, and he now feels more emboldened. There's an expression in Italian, I'll mention it because I just came back from Sicily on vacation, that hunger comes from eating, and he's starting to eat, and I think the hunger is building.
- [33:15]
A
And I guess, as you say, it's put so many other nations on notice. Now, I do want to hear your, your predictions, Richard, and what you think.
- [33:24]
B
Let's do it.
- [33:25]
A
Yeah.
- [33:25]
B
Who goes first? You want to go first?
- [33:27]
A
Sure.
- [33:28]
B
I hinted at mine. Mine is green, mine is Greenland. We're talking this week a lot about Latin America. Cuba certainly is a place that, you know, Trump is threatened. I don't think he's going to take any direct action against, against Colombia because the president he doesn't like is on his way out the door anyway. I would watch Cuba and I would take the Greenland thing very seriously. I think he might do it and his pushback and from, from, you know, Starmer and Denmark. What are they actually going to do that. That, that would bother him? I don't think he cares.
- [34:04]
A
And that is the big talking point at the moment. What exactly are they going to do about it? I'm going to be watching the situation in Iran very closely. I've been speaking to, you know, some people within the, the security and defense establishment in Israel, in, in the wider region. And, you know, Donald Trump, before he even moved on Venezuela, sent a very direct threat after meeting with Benjamin Netanyahu in Washington, Clinton to Iran, and he said, you know, we are watching and we are loaded and ready to go. If you move on any of these demonstrators who are now protesting against austerity measures against the regime in Iran. If anything happens to these protesters, we will not hesitate to come after the regime. And after what's happened in Venezuela and frankly, after what happened last year during the 12 Day War, Iran has been put on notice and no doubt it's sitting up and it is taking notice. So I'm going to be watching the situation in Iran very closely. And you know, Richard, let's not forget this is a year of election for Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu, every time he has launched one of these wars, whether it was against Iran or against Hezbollah in Lebanon, his approval ratings have gone, gone up. So what I'm hearing is suggesting, Yalda.
- [35:42]
B
Hakeem, that war and electoral politics may be linked. How, how, how, how cynical can you be of. Yeah, you know, very good point. Iran is, Iran is very much in play and Bibi's in play. And it's something to watch. It's a place to watch. We're gonna have a lot to do. We're gonna have a lot of to do. Thank you, everyone for, for coming back to us after the holiday season. And if you have any questions about anything we talked about today, please do email us attheworld sky.uk we hope you enjoyed today's episode, Yalda. I really loved talking to you, as always, and we'll be doing a lot more of these in the weeks and months to come. Away we go.
- [36:30]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Richard, Happy New Year again to you and our listeners. Great to talk to you again and thank you so much for listening.