← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Deadlock in Ukraine
00:24:30
With diplomatic talks between Russia and America stalled, the killing on the battlefields continues. Richard reports from the frontline of Mykolaiv, witnessing continued Russian bombardment of the region, while Yalda reveals what the Russian...
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- [00:00]
Richard Engel
Hello, everyone. Very quickly, if you're listening on the Sky News website or app, why don't you listen on either Spotify or Apple instead? Give us a follow so you never miss an episode and leave us a nice review if you want.
- [00:21]
Yalda Hakim
Hello, I'm Yelda and you're listening to the World. I'm currently in London and I'm Richard.
- [00:26]
Richard Engel
Engel and I'm back in Ukraine. I'm in the city of Mykolaiv and there is absolutely no sign and that Vladimir Putin is slowing down his offensive even with this Trump initiative to attain a ceasefire. There were attacks not far from here. Air raid sirens been going on all day. So we're going to talk about Ukraine, how we got here, where this is all going. And it's great to see you, Alda.
- [00:51]
Yalda Hakim
Really good to see you, Richard. As you say, we're going to be talking about the situation on the ground in Ukraine. You're there at the moment and of course, the diplomacy around all of this. The United States has met with Ukraine. They say they agree to a potential 30 day ceasefire. The ball was in Russia's court. Vladimir Putin has responded. So we're going to talk in detail about that. We had such a great response from our episode with Elif Shafak, the author, that we did early in the week, but we really felt we needed to address some of these issues because so many of you have so many questions about this.
- [01:27]
Richard Engel
So please follow us wherever you get.
- [01:29]
Yalda Hakim
Your podcast and of course you can write to us. We love getting all of your comments, your thoughts, your questions at the usual place. Theworldsky.uk.
- [01:40]
Richard Engel
I just came back from a village that was hit by a Russian glide bomb. You know what these are? These modified huge Russian bombs, and modified because they attached wings to them so that the planes can drop them from further away. So they're quite effective, actually, because that way the planes don't really have to go too deep into Ukrainian airspace. They can drop these bombs that glide into their targets, but really, really big ones. And I was there. This is just after Vladimir Putin said to Trump, yeah, you know that peace deal, sure, I love it in principle, but I'm not gonna, you know, not going for it. And here's all the reasons why, not least of which is this offensive that he's on. So we got to Kherson and there are rescue workers there collecting their debris. And I saw one man who was Russia, this is a Russian speaking area. These are the people who are supposed to be pro Russian, who Putin thought would be joining his big project and said, don't believe Putin, don't believe him. He's not going to go for peace. This is what he wants. He just wants to keep destroying this country. And he said Trump has got it all flipped backwards. He's blaming the victims, he's asking for concessions from the victims, the people who were attacked. And he's playing softball with the aggressors with Vladimir Putin.
- [02:53]
Yalda Hakim
You've been going back and forth to Ukraine, but just in the course of the last couple of weeks. You were in Odessa a couple of weeks ago, now you're in Mykolaiv. Give us a sense of the mood there, what people are saying and thinking and feeling in this moment.
- [03:06]
Richard Engel
There are two moods. There's the government and the army. So the official army. The army that is going through the army spokesman's office, and the message that the military is putting out and the government officials and their mood is fear. They are very worried that they're going to get cut off again. They had intelligence cut off by President Trump, and when they lost that, they lost territory, particularly in the Kursk Province. And they don't want to be cut off again. And they saw Zelensky humiliated at the Oval Office. They had military aid cut off, and they were really up against a wall, and they don't want that to happen again. So government officials, if you now ask about Trump, they change the subject. They don't wanna talk about it. Soldiers, too. Every time you talk to a soldier now, there's someone from the media office there scared to death that he's gonna say something against Trump. They're trying to control a message as much as they can and have a unified message. Hey, we love America. We love Trump. We're on board with this program. Don't worry, we need your help, and don't lash out at us again. And then you talk to people on the street and they can be much more open, and they are much more open. And they're using four letter words to describe how they feel and how they feel they're being treated right now. And they're outraged and they don't know what they did. And it goes back to being blamed for this conflict. They think that Trump blames them and finds them to be an annoyance, an expensive nuisance that he was dealt with by the Biden administration, but that his real interest is cozying up and making a deal with Vladimir Putin, and that they are somehow the problem, the ones who caused this war and not the ones who were invaded.
- [04:55]
Yalda Hakim
You know, Richard, I'm curious also to know about the morale of the soldiers, because Donald Trump has constantly been talking about what's going on and talking about progress being made in terms of the interactions with Vladimir Putin. He's also put out a statement on Truth Social, saying, at this very moment, thousands of Ukrainian troops are completely surrounded by the Russian military and in a very bad and vulnerable position. I have strongly requested to President Putin that their lives be spared. This would be a horrible massacre, one not seen since the Second World War. God bless them all. Just give us a sense of the morale on the ground. Because of course, he's talking about the operation that's currently taking place in Kursk region inside Russia.
- [05:43]
Richard Engel
And Ukrainians, many of them, blame Trump for that loss, blame Trump for what is happening in Sumy. So this is an important part of this battle, and it's unlike anything else that has happened in this war. So it's important that people understand it. Last summer, Ukrainian troops launched this surprise operation, and they did for the first time, punch across the border and take a large part of Russian territory in the Kursk region. So in this case, they were the foreign invaders. And initially, Putin was trying to downplay it. He didn't want to say this was a big deal. It was just a problem at the border. Then he started bringing in North Korean troops. And then when the front lines were more or less locked there like they are in many places, and then when the US Cut the intelligence, that's when the Russian advance started moving in earnest. And now those troops in some places do appear to be surrounded and do appear to be on their back foot and in a very dangerous position. So the Ukrainians say, well, now you're saying you've asked Vladimir Putin to save us, but we're in this position because you cut us off.
- [06:59]
Yalda Hakim
You know, that's a really good sense of what's happening on the ground. Let's talk a little bit about the diplomacy of all of this, because of course, we've been talking about the fact that Donald Trump, before he even was inaugurated on the campaign trail, he talked about ending this war in 24 hours. Clearly, it's proving much more difficult than that. We've seen a flurry of diplomatic activity in Saudi Arabia. Suddenly Saudi Arabia sort of acting as a mediator in all of this. Russia and the United States met there a few weeks ago. Last week, the Ukrainian team met with the Americans after that humiliation that President Zelenskyy felt in the Oval Office. And you mentioned it a few minutes ago, and it appears there was breakthrough following that meeting where the Ukrainians said, look, we agree to a ceasefire of 30 days, we agree to the conditions you're putting. And the Americans said, great, the Ukrainians have agreed. Here you go. You can have the intelligence that we'd withheld back. And the pause on the military support, you can have that back as well. We're waiting now for the Russians. The ball is firmly in Russia's court. And since then we've of course heard from Vladimir Putin.
- [08:16]
Richard Engel
So the ball was absolutely put into Putin's hands. And Putin said, well, I'm gonna hold it for a little while, I'm gonna think about this. And that also seen from here, seems bizarre because they see this sequence of events that Zelenskyy was invited to the Oval Office, a meeting went disastrously wrong. Whether it was a setup or not, still not clear here, but they know it went very wrong. And some people here do blame Zelenskyy. They think he should have just not been such a, not a nuisance, but that he should have just sat there and smiled and gotten out of the room. So there is criticism here, but other people think that he did a good job and stood up for himself. So I would say people are divided in this country. It's not that there's a groundswell of support for or against him, but what happened, happened. And then after that meeting, they got cut off intelligence, arms. Under pressure, they said, we accept this idea, 30 day ceasefire, no problem. We got it every day. And they're pushing this message. And then it got pushed back to President Trump, who was quite pleased. He said, sure, Zelenskyy can come back to the Oval Office anytime. And they seem to be friends. Now the ball is in Putin's court and what happened here, Putin has said, well, you know, I love the idea, but I have to think about it. I can't do it. There's this offensive I've got to do and there's Kursk. I've got to finish up Kursk. And Trump is seeming to give him time and sending him envoys and doesn't seem to be using the same kind of sticks. Putin seems to get the carrots and Zelensky gets the sticks. And that's why people in this country yald, I would say, think that President Trump has it flipped around, has it backwards.
- [10:00]
Yalda Hakim
I interviewed the Russian ambassador to the UK about a week and a half ago and he said, it's a joke. We've got the upper hand in the skies, we've got the upper hand on the land, in the sea Ask us to stop what we're doing. Why would we? And these are some of the things that Putin has come back with. He's not only said, great, nice idea in principle, but I have my own questions around this and some of the things that they've said. I mean, currently the Russians do control a fifth of Ukraine, 20% of the land. Over the course of the last three years, they've been able to take control over Crimea. They annex, they want recognition of the 20% of the land that they've taken and the annexation of Crimea. They do not want to see NATO boots on the ground in Ukraine. The Russian ambassador said to me all sorts of things that the UK is leading a group of nations trying to prevent peace from taking place. And he said that there's been all sorts of grand plans to build NATO bases in Ukraine and we're just never going to allow for that to happen. And so there are these clear differences on both sides, but greater than that, Richard, last night I read again Vladimir Putin's essay in. If anyone wants to understand what Vladimir Putin's motivation is on Ukraine, they just need to read that essay. I urge our listeners to go read that several thousand word essay where he lays it all out. He says the Ukrainians, the Russians are one people. He doesn't recognize them as a nation. He laughed in George W. Bush's face in 2008 when they tried to talk about the fact that they wanted to bring Ukraine into NATO.
- [11:46]
Richard Engel
Yalda, I'm so happy you brought that up. It is fundamental. And let's also remember how this all began. This began in 2014 during a revolution in Kyiv. I was there. I was in the squares, I was at the barricades. I was right in the thick of it. And what was that revolution about? That revolution was about breaking out of Russia's sphere and joining Europe. It was about an EU agreement that they wanted to do. Ukrainians wanted to get away from Yanukovych, their sort of pro Russian puppet, pro Putin puppet. And look west and it was called the Euromaidan revolution. And that remains their goal. And right now they're still looking in that direction. And I think that that's what this is all about. Because Putin in that essay says, no, you are not Europeans, you are us. You are Slavs, you are Russians, you will always be Russians. There's no such thing as Ukraine. Don't look to Europe. This is a fantasy. And that really remains at the core of all of this.
- [12:53]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to pick up on that thought In a moment, Richard, but we're going to go to a quick break and then come back. As we've said, plenty of questions from all of you. We're going to answer them in just a minute after this break. Welcome back. You're listening to the World, of course, and Richard and I are talking about the situation in Ukraine and the talk around a ceasefire. And of course, Richard, you're there at the moment. Let's just go through some of these questions because we received so many questions, lots and lots of questions. I've got one here. William K. In read via Instagram. He says, will Trump turn on Russia?
- [13:44]
Richard Engel
I can be pretty short. It doesn't seem so so far, no. Maybe one day he did threaten some sanctions. He said, you know, we can destroy the Russian economy. But that was in response to a question and he started out by saying, we don't want to do this. So maybe. But it seems more likely that Trump and Putin are trying to get together for some big phone call and they're looking to sort it out. So every time he talks about Putin, President Trump talks about Putin, he keeps saying, no, no, I'm getting encouraging signs we're not all the way there. So maybe he turns on him. But that doesn't seem to be the way things are playing right now. Aaron Decker via email why do we not have any videos of devastation that is occurring in Ukraine on mainstream media? If Americans saw or people he wrote Americans, but it could apply to anyone, civilians being targeted and killed. If Americans saw a mother whose children had been stolen, if they could see the war crimes Putin is doing right now, there would be a reaction.
- [14:44]
Yalda Hakim
On the one hand, I do think there is news fatigue. You think about October 7th and the devastation in Gaza and the war there and then the war in Ukraine. And I think we are covering these stories and yet the mainstream media does get flack for not covering this conflict. I do think that we are on the ground as much as we possibly can. It's whether people are looking away. Frankly, I personally believe that, you know, we are certainly on the ground covering.
- [15:14]
Richard Engel
Covering these wars and we're on your side. We go and work really hard to get these pictures and to put them on air as much as possible. We fight to do these stories at risk and want people to see them. And sometimes it's frustrating that you don't see a reaction. I don't know if that says something about the world or it says something about the news fatigue or it says something about people don't want to see something ugly or there's just too much going on. But we do. They're out there. We put them out there all the time. We're talking about them right now. How about another one? This one is a little bit more geopolitical. From Swastnik Singh, what, in your opinion, are the absolute minimum safeguards required for Ukraine's security?
- [16:02]
Yalda Hakim
Well, I think that when I met President Zelenskyy a few weeks ago, less than a few weeks ago, perhaps 10 days ago here in London, he made it very clear that one of the reasons we saw the blow up in the Oval Office is because he predicted this moment that we're now seeing where Vladimir Putin would say, yeah, great, ceasefire in principle, I agree. But I also have a lot of questions. I don't want to see NATO troops on the ground in Ukraine. That includes US Boots on the ground. And we have spoken, you know, a lot on this program about if US Intelligence support, military support, aid runs out in Ukraine, it could be curtains down. Now we're seeing sort of Europeans frantically trying to step up and crank up their defense spending. But Zelenskyy has said, I need to have assurances. So now they've said that, look, we agree to everything that you're saying to the Americans. The ball is in Russia's court. The Russians are putting in place that, you know, the barriers. And on the question, Richard, of whether President Trump could ever turn on Putin, you know, I don't know. I think ultimately US Presidents come and go, but Vladimir Putin's big dream, and we spoke about that essay that he wrote in 2021, to expand territory, that this is beyond just Ukraine, that this is beyond Ukraine just getting NATO territory. He wants to rebuild the Russ Russian empire. And his alternate reality and what he wants is bigger than a Donald Trump. So who knows how this will actually play out? We don't know at this point. But as you say, President Trump is taking a softly, softly approach with Vladimir Putin here.
- [18:04]
Richard Engel
What Ukrainians say they've learned is that they can't rely on anybody, that agreements don't mean anything. They talk about the Budapest Memorandum. The Budapest Memorandum was right after this country was formed. It used to be a part of the Soviet Union. It broke away and it became an independent country. And it had all these nuclear weapons, had all these Soviet era nuclear weapons in silos all over the country. And they signed the Budapest Memorandum in which the United States and several European countries and China and Russia all agreed that they would never attack Ukraine if they just gave up their nuclear weapons for the sake of world Peace. So they did. And lo and behold, they were invaded and been invaded several times. And then they had a security agreement, they thought, with the United States under President Biden, and they even signed one. Do you remember? They signed a security agreement that Biden put to paper because he thought this moment was coming. So he was trying to rush as many weapons to Ukraine as possible and sign as many papers as he possibly could. And yet they are where they are right now. So they would say the lesson they've learned is they need a big army, they need better weapons systems, maybe a whole squadrons of drones, millions of drones. They already have lots of landmines in the grounds, thanks to the Russians. They would like to see foreign troops here as kind of tripwire that could eventually bring in NATO. I think that's going to be a really controversial issue, something Putin has said he won't accept. And they need what they think are nuclear armed friends. So they need a lot. They need a lot. But they think mostly they're gonna have to do this themselves. Just sell them the guns or give them the guns or loan them the guns and give them the political support and let them in Europe, let them have access to a real market and then they think they can play a role in the European. Europe wants to build an army, let them become the core of that pan European army and park them right on Russia's border. They think their future, especially after this outburst, might be with Europe. And that's really how this began, going back to the Maidan revolution. It was always about their European identity. We're not just Russians. Yes. We have a long history with the Soviet Union, which was not a great history for us anyway, and we're looking that way. So if there is a positive future here, if they can form that association with Europe, NATO has expanded. There is a future where they emerge from this. Yes, having lost some territory, but a richer European looking country, which is what they wanted. They just didn't want to have to go through this and have to have cities taken away from them.
- [20:49]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. And President Zelensky has long maintained that one of the key security guarantees for them is NATO membership, which Trump has also said is not going to happen, which is something they've always dangled in their faces. But we've got a couple more questions here, Richard, and then we'll obviously go to our predictions. So we've got a question here from Zzpocygram via Instagram. And he says, will Ukraine accept the loss of its territory? Will Russia agree to having UK troops in Ukraine I think we've answered the question on whether they will accept UK troops in Russia. Like I said, I spoke to the Russian ambassador and he said, said under no circumstances, but would Ukraine to go.
- [21:28]
Richard Engel
Dancing the other one, accept territorial loss. There's a de facto and a de jure. They may have to accept it in practice, but it would be. I can see them not necessarily signing anything saying, we accept the loss of this territory forever. No, they will probably say, this is ours. It remains in our hearts. And these lines are the best we can do.
- [21:51]
Yalda Hakim
Obviously, the Ukrainians have indicated that for the sake of peace, you know, we're willing to sort of have these conversations. That's what's going on right now. The Russians have obviously said, it's in our constitution. We've taken this land back. It belongs to us. We're not giving it back. So there's a bit of tug of war over that, and we'll have to see how it plays out. But, Richard, before we go, your prediction.
- [22:14]
Richard Engel
For this week, I think we're gonna hear a lot more about Kursk. And I think they're going to. It's going to become quite central in all of this. And you're going to hear this, well, both sides argument, because President Trump has been questioning the origin story of this war. And the origin stories of war are always questioned. When you go, this is not just here. This is always an interesting conflict. What is that? The first casualty of war is the truth. And I think we're gonna. Because the Ukrainians did do something there, very unusual. They were, throughout the whole conflict, they were the ones under attack. They were being invaded. But then in this one case, they pushed across the border and grabbed a piece of Russian territory. And they thought, oh, we're going to use this to trade. When we get down to the end moment, we're going to say, okay, you give us back our city and we'll give you back this province. So they thought it was a really good idea. But I think what we're hearing, and we're going to hear more from, and this is the prediction is, well, you guys invaded Russia, too. Russia invaded. You sure. Yes, we understand that, but you invaded them, too. And what about security guarantees for them that you're not gonna invade again? Because here, in this one case, you could make a case that say, hey, both sides did it. It's out of context, but that's where I think it might go.
- [23:34]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'll be watching the diplomatic side as well. Richard, you know, just to see whether President Zelenskyy gets back to the Oval Office, whether they sign that mineral steel. Of course, President Trump has said, I welcome you back. Come, you know you've agreed to this potential ceasefire, 30 day ceasefire. So you can come back and I'll be curious to see what kind of roadblocks Vladimir Putin lays out and how Donald Trump handles it over the course of the next week or so.
- [24:06]
Richard Engel
And thanks to everyone. If you're listening to it through the sky website, you could try it on Spotify, on Apple. That way you get everything, you get updates. Whenever we put out a new episode, we're putting out episodes, not just once a week. Sometimes there's a bonus one, so you don't want to miss it.
- [24:21]
Yalda Hakim
So good to see you, Richard. Stay safe and goodbye to all of our listeners.
- [24:26]
Richard Engel
Goodbye. And until next time.
- [24:30]
James Matthews
Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.
- [24:33]
Richard Engel
Together, we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years and we're going to.
- [24:41]
James Matthews
Be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha.
- [24:52]
Richard Engel
Calneck and me, Mark Stone for Trump.
- [24:54]
James Matthews
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