Podcast Summary

Podcast: The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Episode Title: Former spy chief on Mandelson, Ukraine, China and Trump
Date: February 10, 2026
Host: Yalda Hakim
Guest: Sir Richard Moore (Former Head of MI6, 2020–2025)

Episode Theme

This episode features an in-depth interview with Sir Richard Moore, the recently-retired head of MI6, reflecting on his career as a British spy chief during a period marked by global upheaval: the Ukraine war, increasing tensions with Russia and China, the Trump presidency, the crisis in the Middle East, and issues of political vetting and espionage in the modern era. Sir Richard offers candid insights into intelligence work, the moral and strategic dimensions of current geopolitics, and the challenges facing Western alliances and world order.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Life as the Head of MI6

• Transition and Reflections ([02:34], [03:23])
  • Sir Richard describes the emotional challenge of leaving after 38 years in the service but emphasizes looking forward rather than backward.
  • “You can't be part of an organization for 38 years…leaving is a wrench…But I'm not a big looker backer…Looking forward to the next chapter.” — Sir Richard Moore [02:34]
  • He highlights the changing face of MI6 headquarters and the need to live a covert life, emphasizing that real intelligence officers are ordinary people doing extraordinary, ethically-guided work, not movie characters.
  • “It's an ordinary office building with some, in some ways, quite ordinary people doing extraordinary things.” [05:01]

2. The Realities of Espionage

• Daily Life & Security Practices ([04:26]–[06:23])
  • Describes the importance of living one’s cover, being mindful of surveillance and privacy threats, but warns against becoming paranoid.
  • MI6 officers are normal people with a deep commitment to the ethical and legal dimensions of their work.

3. The Mandate and Burden of Leadership

• Impact of MI6 During Global Crises ([06:44]–[07:38])
  • Sir Richard dismisses the notion of fundamentally reshaping the world but hopes that MI6’s work has “ameliorated some stuff that would have been worse.”
  • “You have to come into it with a sense of humility, that you're not going to shift the big tectonic plate of geopolitics, but you hope... you can make a difference.” [06:44]

4. The Mandelson Vetting Controversy

• Vetting Process, Secrecy and Limitations ([07:38]–[12:45])
  • Sir Richard refuses to comment on the specifics of Lord Mandelson’s vetting, emphasizing the principle of privacy and the limits of his own knowledge.
  • He stresses that the focus should remain on the underlying issues of misogyny and abuse, not on salacious specifics.
  • Quote: “This stuff does not get circulated around the building.” [00:15/12:06]
  • The vetting system is robust but ultimately human and relies on honesty as well as background checks, originating out of historical lessons like the Cambridge Five scandal.
  • “No process in government or business is ever infallible. But do we work very hard on it? Yes.” [11:12]

5. Ukraine War: Intelligence, Support, and Global Stakes

• Strategic Preparation and Support ([13:24]–[15:01])

  • He credits groundwork laid after Russia’s 2014 Crimea operation for Ukrainian resilience and innovation, especially in drone warfare.
  • “We've done some great work with Ukraine, we’ve done some great work with our Ukrainian partners. I believe that has probably made the situation better than it would otherwise have been.” [06:44]
  • “[Putin] would have already have lost were it not for the Chinese support that he has garnered.” [00:15, 16:44]

• Western Response and Pressure on Russia ([16:51]–[19:48])

  • Argues the West should be intensifying both military and economic pressure on Russia; laments that Europe still buys Russian petrochemicals.
  • “We should be giving them more permissions than we are at the moment. And we should be hammering his economy harder than we are.” [16:51]
  • Warns of ecological threats from the “shadow fleet” of old oil tankers feeding Russian revenues.

• Trump, Western Alliances & Fractures ([18:44], [22:02])

  • Credits President Trump with compelling some states (notably India) to change behavior on Russian oil.
  • Expresses frustration at the slow pace of sanction efficacy and at European financial flows still reaching Putin.

6. The Changing World Order

• Global Fractures and New Alliances ([22:02]–[24:58])

  • Acknowledges that the rules-based order is deeply frayed; the US-UK intelligence relationship remains strong and “incredibly special,” even when policy differences arise.
  • “There will be an international system of type of sorts, but we're gonna have to work out what it is…and how we...retain our freedoms and our way of life.” [24:02]

• Intelligence Sharing and Legal Constraints ([25:08])

  • Explains that UK intelligence sharing is carefully managed, anonymized, and always conforms to British law—even when there are disagreements over use of force, as with the US post-9/11.
  • “Our job to gather secret intelligence from agents in the field…We publish it…to a select number of readers…written in a way…disguising of the source.” [25:08]

7. Iran: Regime Fractures, US Policy, and Regional Dangers

• Internal Vulnerabilities and Military Tensions ([27:36]–[33:42])
  • Moore resists making predictions, noting Iran’s regime instability, the dangers of junior commanders exercising autonomy, and the possibility of miscalculation.
  • “This is a deeply ideological regime that is literally and metaphorically in a bunker and in a bunker mentality.” [28:24]
  • Warns that unless Iran negotiates, military action may be inevitable, especially with Israel's perceived “unfinished business.”

8. China: Engagement and Threats

• Balancing Firmness and Engagement ([33:42]–[36:05])
  • China is both a significant security threat (e.g., targeting diaspora, espionage) and a necessary partner for global challenges such as climate and AI.
  • “If we are going to have any kind of system of global stability, you have to engage with it…But that does not mean that you don't make it very clear where you think behavior is unacceptable.” [34:12]

9. The Decade Ahead: Hope, Realism, and Uncertainty

• Outlook for Ukraine, Iran, and China ([36:05]–[38:08])
  • Sir Richard offers cautious optimism about possible peace in Ukraine and regime evolution in Iran but stresses unpredictability.
  • “I desperately hope that Iran can evolve into the type of country its people deserve... We have to find a way, most importantly, of living with China and doing it not entirely on their terms.” [36:34]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the limits of intelligence work:
  “Our job was to steal secrets, not to solve mysteries.” — Sir Richard Moore [28:24]
• On Chinese support to Russia:
  “Putin would have already have lost were it not for the Chinese support that he has garnered.” [00:15/16:44]
• On the intelligence relationship with the US:
  “The one bit which is incredibly special is the intelligence relationship, always has been.” [24:07]
• On emotional challenges of retirement:
  “...Leaving is a wrench and it was very emotional on the last few days.” [02:34]
• On the nature of MI6 officers:
  “They're normal people. They are warm, living people who care about the work they're doing deeply.” [05:01]
• On the world order:
  “Some of the truths that we held to be self-evident about the international system in the post-1945 era are no longer the case.” [22:30]
• On hope for Iran:
  “I've met many Iranians…this is an extraordinary civilization of great millennia and it has a highly educated young population…These people should be at home, you know, helping to create the type of Iran we'd like to see.” [36:34]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:34] — Sir Richard on leaving MI6; reflections on 38-year career
• [05:01] — Realities of office life at MI6 and ordinary lives of spies
• [06:44] — On the burden and limitations of trying to make the world better as MI6 chief
• [07:38] — Discussion of Lord Mandelson's vetting and process transparency
• [13:24] — British intelligence support to Ukraine and lessons learned since 2014
• [16:44] — The crucial role of Chinese backing in sustaining Putin’s war
• [18:44] — On Trump’s policies, oil sanctions, and European dependence
• [22:02] — Fracturing world order and “rules-based” system
• [24:58] — Intelligence sharing between UK and US; handling policy divergences
• [28:24] — Risks and unpredictability of US-Iran relations, internal regime dynamics
• [34:12] — Threats from China and balancing engagement with firmness
• [36:34] — Looking ahead: hope, realism, and the unpredictability of geopolitical shifts

Conclusion

This episode provides a rare, authentic look inside the world of British intelligence during a tumultuous period. Sir Richard Moore deftly balances candor and discretion, conveying both the operational realities and the ethical dilemmas of modern spycraft. He reflects on the complex interplay of geopolitics, intelligence, alliances, and the human factor at the center of history’s unfolding dramas.