Podcast Summary
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Episode: How did a viral deepfake stoke tensions between India and Pakistan?
Date: December 10, 2025
Hosts: Yalda Hakim (Sky News) & Richard Engel (NBC)
Notable Guests: Gul Bukhari (Pakistani-British journalist and human rights activist)
Episode Overview
This episode centers on the alarming rise of AI-driven deepfakes and their real-world impact on international tensions—specifically, how a viral deepfake featuring Yalda Hakim and Gul Bukhari inflamed relations between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan. The hosts dissect the personal and geopolitical consequences of this deepfake, explore the broader dangers of misinformation in the AI age, and reflect on current global flashpoints, including updates from Ukraine and the shifting dynamics in U.S. national security strategy under the Trump administration.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Deepfake Incident: How AI Manipulation Escalated a Crisis
[03:48 - 08:45]
- Yalda Hakim details her experience being targeted by a viral deepfake, which spliced her image and voice into an interview to falsely claim that Imran Khan’s sister accused Pakistan’s army chief Asim Munir of instigating war with India for religious reasons.
- The deepfake was so convincing that even Richard Engel admits, “If I hadn’t been told this, I would not have known.” (05:01)
- The fake clip spread rapidly, trended on social media, prompted an official response from Pakistan’s defense minister, and was picked up by mainstream Indian media, fueling dangerous misinformation during a volatile period.
- Yalda underscores the helplessness once a deepfake “takes on a life of its own, and you can’t pull this stuff back, no matter how much you’re saying” it’s false. (06:44)
Notable Quote:
“No matter how many statements I was putting out… I was doing on-air interviews, I was putting tweets out saying, ‘this is fake,’ it was just taking a life of its own.”
— Yalda Hakim [06:44]
- The incident highlights how social media platforms, notably X (formerly Twitter), served as vectors for rapid disinformation spread. Trump’s social media aide, confronted by Yalda during the Doha Forum, conceded, “Well, that is really dangerous and we have to deal with AI” after initially defending X as a space for free speech. (07:59)
2. The Regional Impact of Deepfakes and Disinformation
[08:45 - 12:32]
- Yalda and Richard discuss the vulnerability of tense regions—Pakistan, India, Afghanistan—to conspiracy theories and disinformation, with AI deepfakes exacerbating volatility.
- They stress the crisis in public trust these technologies create, both for collective memory and the future of journalism.
Notable Quote:
“I think it’s going to rot our brains... It’s literally gonna rot our brains. And I think it’s going to lead to a total homogenization of news.”
— Richard Engel [09:41]
3. Pakistan’s Political Turmoil: Gul Bukhari on Military Power and Civilian Democracy
[12:32 - 26:08]
- [13:49 - 24:52] Gul Bukhari, a journalist exiled for her outspokenness on military dominance in Pakistan, provides an in-depth look at the country’s “hybrid” system, where the military wields ultimate control despite civilian façades.
- She explains the erosion of democracy since 2018, the role of the judiciary in enabling military overreach, and the danger of recent constitutional reforms granting Field Marshal status and lifetime immunity to Army Chief Asim Munir.
- Bukhari argues the military uses civilian proxy power and needs civilian facilitators to retain control.
- She voices concern over how democratic “maturity” has been derailed, and warns that Pakistan may now be furthest from genuine democracy in its post-independence history.
Notable Quotes:
“With each passing event, the military had been losing its power somewhat... Now, with this latest amendment... the military is back in with a vengeance, stronger than ever.”
— Gul Bukhari [22:24]
“Why would an army chief need lifetime immunity? What for and from whom?”
— Gul Bukhari [22:43]
4. Ukraine Update & U.S. Policy Shifts Under Trump
[27:19 - 39:43]
- [27:19 - 34:20] Richard Engel provides an on-the-ground update from Ukraine, discussing the latest Trump peace plan and reactions among Ukrainians, who overwhelmingly reject perceived capitulation to Russian demands.
- Growing internal corruption scandals have damaged Zelensky’s administration, but Richard notes Ukrainians remain more unified behind Zelenskyy than Afghans were behind their government at the time of the U.S. withdrawal.
Notable Quotes:
“A bad deal is worse than no deal. We want a deal, but a bad deal is just going to set us up for failure.”
— Richard Engel [30:16]
- [35:51 - 37:02] Donald Trump Jr., interviewed by Yalda at the Doha Forum, offers a bullish, dismissive stance on Ukraine, referencing personal anecdotes to accuse Ukrainian officials of widespread corruption. He claims, “All had Ukrainian plates. Do we think that was actually earned in Ukraine?” (35:51), suggesting much aid money is being stolen.
- The conversation illustrates the Trump administration’s skepticism about further support for Ukraine, painting it as undeserving of aid compared to Russia.
[39:01 - 39:43]
Richard robustly pushes back, emphasizing Ukrainian unity and sacrifice:
“To say that they’re just sitting around, you know, collecting money, sending their Bugattis to Monaco... is just an absolute misrepresentation of the mood, of the culture, and of the fighting spirit...”
— Richard Engel [38:19]
5. America’s National Security Doctrine: A Shift to ‘Social Media Realpolitik’
[39:43 - 48:06]
- The hosts break down the Trump administration’s new national security strategy, which pivots away from longstanding alliances and American-led global order, taking a transactional and hyper-personalized approach to foreign policy.
- Rory Stewart, British commentator and former politician, challenges a Trump social media aide on the strategy’s racial undertones, asking pointedly about the document’s warnings that “NATO is going to be dominated by non-Europeans.”
- Yalda describes the new doctrine as “a national security strategy in the age of social media,” focused on strongmen and personalities (Xi, Putin, Modi), with America-first rhetoric and less commitment to alliance-building.
Notable Quotes:
“He believed in power over principles... also made clear that America is not going to come to the rescue of the world.”
— Yalda Hakim [41:26]
“Europe is falling apart and, you know, Russia basically has it right—that’s very new and it caught a lot of people’s attention. And Russia liked it, Europe hated it, basically.”
— Richard Engel [46:15]
Memorable Moments & Thought-Provoking Exchanges
- Yalda’s firsthand account of being deepfaked, coupled with the viral momentum and authentic appearance of the malicious clip, sets a chilling tone for the episode.
- Richard’s candid observation on the risks of AI: “If I showed up and the Internet was the teacher, we’re going to a new school, buddy. We’re done.” [09:41]
- Gul Bukhari’s historical insights expose Pakistan’s cycle of military-civilian manipulation and underscore the fragility of democracy in the region.
- The debate at the Doha Forum, where Yalda’s confrontation with a Trump aide over social media’s dangers, prompts a rare admission from the MAGA camp about the risks of deepfakes.
- Donald Trump Jr.’s characterization of Ukraine’s wartime government (“the rich fled... the peasants fight these wars...”) [35:51] versus Richard Engel’s counter-portrait of a society mobilized for survival and resistance.
Important Segment Timestamps
- 03:48 – Deepfake audio example and its fallout
- 06:26 – Mainstream and official reactions to the deepfake
- 07:59 – Yalda’s panel confrontation at the Doha Forum
- 13:49 – Gul Bukhari on Pakistan’s hybrid politics
- 17:40 – Military-judiciary interplay and constitutional amendments
- 22:43 – The danger and implications of army chief's lifetime immunity
- 27:19 – Ukraine peace plan and reactions
- 35:51 – Donald Trump Jr. on Ukraine corruption and Monaco anecdote
- 38:19 – Richard Engel defends Ukrainian society
- 41:26 – American security strategy shifts under Trump
Conclusion
This episode lays bare the crosscurrents of AI-enabled misinformation, the brute power politics shaping Pakistan, the fraught state of Ukraine, and the radical reshaping of U.S. foreign policy priorities. Yalda’s personal ordeal with AI manipulation grounds the conversation in the present dangers journalists and societies face; the wider discussions underscore a world increasingly unsettled by both technology and political transformation.
Final Note:
Listeners are invited to send questions for a special Christmas Q&A episode ([48:15]).