← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
How did a viral deepfake stoke tensions between India and Pakistan?
00:48:45
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- [00:03]
Yalda Hakim
Sky News, the full story first.
- [00:15]
Hello, and welcome to the world with me, Yalda. And I'm in Doha. Is your hunch that President Trump is going to walk away?
- [00:25]
Donald Trump Jr.
What's unique about my father is you don't know what he's going to do. The fact that he's not predictable, he's not following the playbook. You don't know.
- [00:35]
Richard Engel
And me, Richard Engel, and I'm just back from Ukraine, and I'm in Sicily at the moment.
- [00:40]
Yalda Hakim
Of all places, we stand with Ukraine, and if there's to be a ceasefire, it needs to be a just and lasting ceasefire.
- [00:54]
Richard, are you in Sicily for the rest of the holidays? Are you going out again, or are you staying there for now?
- [01:01]
Richard Engel
No, I wish. I love Sicily, but no, it's a little too early, but probably one, maybe two more little things before. Before Christmas. We will see. But I'm here for now and great to catch up. So much to talk about. And Yalda, you've got to tell us about this deepfake incident that happened to you. I saw it. It was very convincing and very disturbing.
- [01:26]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, absolutely, Richard, as you say, so crazy and I guess a window into what's to come. You know, I know that AI freaks you out and that whole world, but this really was confronting because this is what awaits us as journalists, policymakers, world leaders. What can happen to, I guess, you know, ordinary people, that someone can fake something and people start to believe that it's real, it's getting and smarter. So I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened to me with that. But I also am here at the annual Doha Forum. We were here together last year, Richard, and of course, again, thinkers are here, policymakers. I also did an interview with Donald Trump Jr. The president's son, and he made some news, broke some news around Ukraine. He didn't mince his words. He was quite bullish. So I'm gonna talk to you about that as well, because, of course, you've just come back. I'm keen to hear your thoughts.
- [02:23]
Richard Engel
Yeah, AI definitely freaks me out. I see certain benefits of it, but I think it will teach people over time to be intellectually lazy. And then we should absolutely talk about Ukraine, the ongoing talks that are happening there to try and end this war, which is going on four years. And President Trump unveiled his national security strategy. This is Trump's vision for the world. But what does it say? I won't give too much away at this stage, but suffice to say, Moscow is very happy with it and Europe is not and we'll get into all of that in detail.
- [02:59]
Yalda Hakim
And as always, follow us on Spotify or Apple. And as you always say, the call out you do, Richard, watch us on our YouTube channel and people seem to.
- [03:08]
Richard Engel
Be listening, which is good. So we'll make another call out because it's working and we're going to need these questions. So what we do for the Christmas episode, it's a little different as we just respond to questions. So please send us your questions. We've had some great questions so far, but keep them coming. And it could be about a story we covered, it could be a story we didn't cover or just a question you have about us. So please send them to theworldsky.uk.
- [03:48]
Yalda Hakim
So Richard, you know me pretty well, you know my voice pretty well and I hope our listeners know my voice well by now. But I just want you to listen to this. So, Ms. Aleema, why do you think that Pakistan went through a war in May? And I was also privy to some of the incidents that happened during the war. I also got a chance to interview the defense minister. But I want to understand, why do you think that the war happened between Pakistan and India? Your statements created some chaos, as I have heard.
- [04:22]
Gul Bukhari
Well, Yalda, this Asim Munir is a very radicalized Islamist Islamic conservative and this is the reason why he yearns for a war with India because his Islamic radicalization and conservatism is forcing him to fight against those who don't believe in Islam.
- [04:42]
Richard Engel
So to make sure everybody understands that's not you and that's not your guest.
- [04:48]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, exactly that, Richard, I did conduct that interview. That is Imran Khan's sister. But that is absolutely not what we said and put it all into perspective. Basically, you'll remember and we covered this deeply on this podcast, the war that broke out between India and Pakistan back in May. These are two nuclear armed states. The world was on tenterhooks. Donald Trump had to intervene and after a number of days, basically both sides decided to stop. Why what she said is so critical is because she is criticizing the current army chief who has given himself lifetime immunity, made constitutional reforms. Asa Munir, he's just now a field marshal. She's basically saying that he instigates war with India.
- [05:40]
Richard Engel
She didn't say this.
- [05:41]
Yalda Hakim
She absolutely did not say any of those things.
- [05:43]
Richard Engel
Just so we clear, so nobody knocks on her door, nobody. The police don't come looking for her. People don't get the wrong impression everything about it because by the way, it's also video and the lip sync is perfect. Your cadence is per. It's. I know you. I've watched you on air. I know you in person. I was. If somebody hadn't told me already, you sent me this and said, here, take a look at this. And it was flagged as fake. If I hadn't been told this, I would not have known.
- [06:12]
Yalda Hakim
And, you know, Richard, I didn't realize. So people were sending it to me the morning after the interview, but I thought it was the interview, so I wasn't clicking on the audio. And then suddenly I realized this thing that suddenly was shared millions of times. It went toe to toe, it got.
- [06:27]
Richard Engel
Shared millions of times. It got a big play.
- [06:29]
Yalda Hakim
It went totally viral, Richard. Not just that. The Pakistan defense minister responded to it by criticizing Imran Khan's sister for saying, you're inflaming war.
- [06:40]
Richard Engel
How could you be saying these outrageous things, insulting the military leader?
- [06:45]
Yalda Hakim
Mainstream Indian media picked it up as a headline. I mean, that. That' get quite terrifying. And no matter how many statements I was putting out, I was doing on air interviews, I was putting tweets out saying, this is fake. It was just taking a life of its own. And that is where it gets terrifying, when the cat, you know, comes out of the bag and you can't pull this stuff back, no matter how much you're saying. This weekend in Doha, for example, I did a panel on disinformation, and we had someone from the MAGA crowd, a huge Donald Trump supporter, one of his social media people, who was talking about how the mainstream media's fake news disinformation and social media media is where people can speak freely. And I put this to him about.
- [07:27]
Richard Engel
Are you kidding me? Social media is like all kind. There's great stuff out there, but also absolute wild, crazy garbage.
- [07:35]
Yalda Hakim
And he said to me, give me an example of where X Elon Musk's X has spread fake news. I said, okay, I don't have to really give you random information. Why don't I tell you what's happened to me in the last few days? And it did stop him in his tracks. And he said, well, that is really dangerous and we have to deal with AI. And suddenly he backtracked. It's a guy called Bruce Witz, who's Donald Trump's main social media guy.
- [07:59]
Richard Engel
So just to be clear, his argument, I don't want to put words in his mouth. We didn't hear the whole context, so last thing I want to do. But his basic argument, as you're saying, is that mainstream media sky, BBC, NBC, New York Times, et cetera, traditional media outlets that they have so much of a bias that they can't be trusted or shouldn't be trusted, which is sort of the driving line there, but that the wild, freewheeling discourse of social media is better. So you should really look there to find your knowledge and help guide you through the world on this journey on Earth that we all get for a few days.
- [08:42]
Yalda Hakim
Essentially, he was saying that the elites control the mainstream media, therefore they control the narrative, whereas on social media you get more voices, more freedom to express.
- [08:53]
And then when I put this deep fake to him, he really didn't have a response to how to curb this. And I said, listen, I went on Sky News and I told our viewers that this is fake. And we're doing the same thing now for our listeners here on the podcast. The point that she was trying to make in the interview was there was no proof of life that morning. They just found out after four weeks that Imran Khan was alive. You know, because there was really a lot of concern because family members couldn't visit him. They didn't know if he was okay or not. So that's what the basis of the. And why, you know, so many people, so many listeners had so many questions on our podcast last week, they wanted to know more. And so that that interview absolutely did take place, but that was not what we talked about. We talked solely about her brother, his case, his time in prison.
- [09:41]
Richard Engel
What worries me most about this AI trend that we're seeing in the media is that I. I think it's going to rot our brains. I think it's literally gonna rot our brains. And I think it's going to lead to a total hom of news. It's going to lead to a homogenization of information because everyone is looking effectively to the same source. So either, you know, if it's chat GDP or whichever is your AI bot and you're asking it for answers and it's going to give you an answer. So we've created some sort of digital God that spits out all the answers. And people like answers, especially if they seem convincing, they type in and they'll get an answer. And over time, all those answers are going to be similar. And look at the thing that they're learning from AI is learning from the Internet. Have you ever looked out there? This is its teacher. All the porn and all the lies and all the aggression and sort of really violent videos of people just sort of going up and punching other people. Like that's the teacher. I would demand a substitute if I showed up. And the Internet was one day, and all that comes with it. Theo's teacher or Alexander's teacher, like, we're going to a new school, buddy. We're done.
- [10:56]
Yalda Hakim
I mean, now they can't even. They were, you know, we're living in a world where we've heard for so long, for the last seven to 10 years about worries around deep fakes, AI and now we're in a situation where, frankly, if our children did go onto the Internet and put, you know, our names in, they would find maybe fake material out there based on what we've just seen.
- [11:16]
Richard Engel
It's a problem. It's a real problem. And it's a real problem for our collective memories, for our future, for our children's future. I worry about it. I worry about it a lot.
- [11:26]
Yalda Hakim
And Richard, I think at some point we should have a whole conversation on this podcast about AI and deepfakes and speak to someone about what all of this means. But as you say, I mean, I spoke to a disinformation expert who told me that in that part of the world, in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, in this region, the deepfakes have, you know, and misinformation, because things are so tense, there is so much distrust, these sorts of deepfakes. AI Start has started to really play a role in the breeding, the conspiracy theories. And so we wanted to have a conversation with human rights activist, journalist who was forced to flee the country and talk to us about what really is happening in Pakistan. Her name is Gul Bukhari. She's deeply concerned about the role of the. The military and, and the new powers that the army chief now has and the reforms that we've seen in the constitution.
- [12:33]
Guhari, thank you so much for joining us here on the podcast. We did an episode on Imran Khan's incarceration, his time in prison. The fact that there was. Was concerned about no proof of life because his family hadn't connected with him for almost four weeks. And last week his sister confirmed that he was in fact alive and gave us a sense of what's happening with him in prison. But there has been so much interest from our listeners about the situation in Pakistan, and we thought, who better to help us understand, help our wider audiences understand what's happening inside the country. And of course, a lot of focus and attention on the new powers of the army chief, Asim Munir, the control that the military has over the country. And of course, you are a British, Pakistani woman. You grew up in the country. But you had to also leave because of the military in 2018. I just want you to help us understand these new powers that the military has. What does it mean for Pakistan? What does it mean for the region? And just how powerful have the constitutional changes made?
- [13:49]
Gul Bukhari
Asa Munir, thank you so much. Yelda. Let me first talk about a little bit about what you said, whether you know, how the military has previously been in the background, but I would say the military has been at the front before as well. Starting 2018.
- [14:10]
We have now, as acknowledged by everyone, a hybrid sort of a dispensation in place. And if I may say so, it's becoming hybrider and hybrider, you know. So what do you mean when you, when you say that everybody in Pakistan now calls this a hybrid system? It is neither just the military nor just a civilian, civilian government, a democratically elected government. In 2013, Pakistan saw the first ever.
- [14:48]
Transition of power from one civil government to the next.
- [14:54]
Which was peaceful, which was without military meddling, without anything.
- [14:59]
Yalda Hakim
The first time in its history since partition.
- [15:04]
Gul Bukhari
History, yeah, because the parties had begun to mature. They had begun to respect each other's mandates, even if they didn't fully accept it or said, oh, there's been rigging here or there. But there was that maturity. And I remember that back then, I put on my military boots or hat and said, this won't go on. If I were the generals, I'm going to put an end to this. Because the stronger democracy grows, the deeper it sets its roots, the smaller and smaller the political role of the military gets. But in 2018, I was there in that election, and my God, I mean, even I was abducted right ahead of the election because people like myself were.
- [15:58]
Shattering the narratives being built. There was such a clampdown on media. I mean, Imran Khan had, for example, become known as Mr. Utah Khan. And I remember there was an accident. And a friend of mine, a reporter, was reporting live from the spot where a truck had overturned because it was making a U turn. And he was told, you can't use that word. Find another way to report that the truck has overturned, it was overloaded, it made a U turn. And we were not allowed to use the word engineering or rigging or people were made to get up and leave the studios during live election.
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Coverage.
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Yalda Hakim
If they were critical of him in.
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Gul Bukhari
Any way, if they were critical of him or of what they could see happening, not just of him, he was only, only the face of the problem. The problem was what the military was doing by itself. And of course, you know, one of the retired ISI generals has a few years ago, two or three years ago, his name was Zaheer Al Islam, he went on record as having said, you know, we'd had enough of these two political parties and we decided we're going to do something great for the country and try someone new. So. And so there we are. And what we have now with this latest amendment, as you mentioned, to fast forward.
- [17:40]
I think it's done two main things. One part of it, which you haven't mentioned, but of course I know that you're aware of it, is to do with the judiciary, which is also extremely important, and it's even more important to understand why that has happened and what might have been done better, because the judiciary, too, was actually a problem. The fact that Pakistan, you know, people say the military is too powerful, it's got the barrel of the gun. Everybody else is at the. But the fact is that the military has not actually ever come into power in a bloody couple. It's never actually used its country.
- [18:26]
Yalda Hakim
As you say, worked parallel in this kind of hybrid format. It hasn't needed to.
- [18:32]
Gul Bukhari
It hasn't needed to, exactly. Because. Well, a. It's not an easy thing to open fire on your own people. Yes.
- [18:43]
On a massive scale and very openly. But the real thing is that.
- [18:50]
There have been obviously always people to facilitate their engineering. Yes. So we are traditionally, historically, the judiciary in Pakistan very tragically, has always facilitated, always provided a cover, always provided immunity against the coups that were mounted. They have traditionally been a problem. And the judiciary was very much involved when Imran Khan was brought to power. It was very much involved when transgressions were being carried out. And, you know, people talk about the cases, about Imran Khan now being political in nature. But I would like for your audiences to understand what part of it is political. These. Most of them, I'm not actually even. I mean, some of them may not be the right thing to do, like use archaic laws to bring charges against him. But the fact is that there are archaic laws on the books and Imran Khan has broken them. The issue now, the reason these are called political is not because the charges are false. It's because had he been in favor, he would have continued to have immunity and not been sort of prosecuted.
- [20:16]
Yalda Hakim
I just want to bring you to this moment. And now these kind of, you know, the constitutional reforms that we're seeing that have given Arsene Munir the status of field marshal have given him lifetime immunity. Him and a handful of others. How dangerous is this moment? For Pakistan, given its history, given what you've described, and how Pakistan has gotten to this moment where it feels like it is perhaps furthest away from democracy or a democratic process. You talked about, you know, the. In the 2000s, how things started to shift and the party started to mature and the country felt like it was on a path towards a more democratic system. But do you feel that's now being derailed as a result?
- [21:04]
Gul Bukhari
I think it has been derailed, definitely. I think the derailment happened when the military actually, in sort of so many words, said, yes, we have been meddling and we've seen the error of our ways and we are now going to be neutral.
- [21:23]
And Imran, obviously, I don't know if you're aware of it, he flayed them. He did all these rallies and said, what do they mean by neutral? Animals are neutral. People cannot be neutral.
- [21:38]
My guard is supposed to guard me and not stay neutral if there are dacoits coming in and stuff like that. And he dragged it back in. I feel the other people who I hold responsible for this are the other politicians, the other parties, because I do believe that Miyanawaz Sharif said, you know, this was your gift to the nation. You deal with it.
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And he was pulling them in. And Myanavaz Sharif was not taking on the task of handling his or one of his opponents or whatever.
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And I think that was a fatal mistake. And they're back in. And they're back in with a vengeance. And they're stronger than ever, the military. And then it's the 27th amendment. I mean, when you say dangerous, yes, it sounds extremely. It is frightening. Why? It's unprecedented. Why would an army chief need lifetime immunity? What for and from whom? And as I understand it, I think he's not even going to be accountable to his own institution. I think this rule change, on the one hand, while it sounds very dangerous, may not be enough to protect anybody when things actually change. I mean, who could have thought that, you know, in Pakistan you could not even name military generals or, you know, in. In certain ways. And believe me, you know, when I, when I mentioned to you the period of post 2008, saying that majority democracy was strengthening, et cetera, with each passing event, the military had been losing its power somewhat. That was the period when for the first time.
- [23:46]
The army chief and the ISI chief were actually summoned into Parliament to explain what had happened after Osama bin Laden's raid. And then, for the first time ever, a military dictator was given a death sentence, at least a sentence was passed even if it wasn't carried out.
- [24:09]
So laws on the books? Yeah, I guess.
- [24:13]
Yalda Hakim
Are you also saying that civilian leaders have used the military when they've wanted and needed throughout the course of Pakistan's history, and that's what we've seen played out here as well?
- [24:25]
Gul Bukhari
It would be more fair to say that for me, that's my perspective. The military has used civilians, be it in the media, be it in the politics, be it in the judiciary or anywhere, really, it is ultimately the power broker that uses people. And I think if these, so if these people stop providing that support and help.
- [24:53]
It can come out of the quagmire.
- [24:55]
Yalda Hakim
Do you believe that this period, too will pass and perhaps Imran Khan will either be he'll cut a deal and he'll have to leave the country like we have seen other prime ministers do. What is your prediction for how this period will end?
- [25:09]
Gul Bukhari
I think it is entirely possible, and I would not say none of this is possible, but it doesn't look probable to me. And that is simply because we saw that when other prime ministers cut deals, they left the country. They could be relied upon to a large extent to do as they'd said. But I think with Imran Khan, he's far more unpredictable. And that's why I don't think it's very likely in the very near future. If we see a change in the way he's dealing with the army or the things he's saying or tweeting or whatever it is or how his party is behaving, then that might indicate in the future that it can change suddenly. But right now, there seems to be no sign for that.
- [26:03]
Yalda Hakim
Gul Bukhari, thank you so much for joining us here on the program.
- [26:08]
Gul Bukhari
Thank you so much, Elda.
- [26:17]
Richard Engel
Isn't it more empowering to know something is real? After the break, we'll come back. We'll talk more about the Doha Forum and the experiences that I just had recently in Ukraine.
- [26:34]
Gul Bukhari
Foreign.
- [26:41]
Sophie
Hey, it's Sophie and Wil from Sky News.
- [26:44]
Wilf
Too many headlines, too little time.
- [26:46]
Sophie
We get it. And that's why we're bringing you cheat sheet.
- [26:49]
Wilf
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- [26:51]
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- [26:56]
Wilf
Scrolling, no spin, just the stories that matter from two people who live and breathe the new news. Cheat Sheet with Bridge and Frost from Sky News.
- [27:05]
Sophie
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- [27:19]
Richard Engel
Welcome back to the World podcast. So let's just give everyone a brief update on where things stand with the negotiations to end the war, the US President Trump has proposed this peace plan. It's still very vague. It started out as a 28 point plan, and now it's roughly a 20 point plan. The drafts are being kept secret, but we know that the first draft was very, very much in favor of Vladimir Putin because that draft was leaked. We read it. Nobody denied that that draft was what it was. It was leaked to multiple outlets. I think it was leaked on purpose because it was so Russia friendly, demanded so many concessions from Ukraine. I think they were trying to soften the blow. The reaction among Ukrainians was shock and horror because the, the peace plan basically said, you have to give up all your land and more land and you get nothing in return and the war ends and you're just going to have to live with it. Goodbye, have a nice day. Oh, and your security guarantees that, that so that Russia doesn't invade again, are vague and we'll address them at a case by case basis if it's necessary. That was the, the, the basic gist of the first plan. Then we had these two meetings in Geneva and then another meeting in, in Florida, and there's been yet another phone call between.
- [28:47]
Zelensky and U.S. officials. And so far, Vladimir Putin has said, well, we liked the first draft and the first draft had principles we can work with. But, nah, the rest, we're not interested. We're not signing on. And no, no, no, no. And seems at this stage that President Trump is pretty annoyed. And guess who he's annoyed with?
- [29:11]
Yalda Hakim
Of course. Zelensky.
- [29:13]
Richard Engel
Yeah, of course he's annoyed with Zelensky because Zelensky's being, you know, unappreciative again, and he's not accepting the deal and he, he's slowing things down. And when I was just in Ukraine right now.
- [29:26]
There'S complex feelings. People want a deal and they want to end the war, but they also don't want total capitulation and surrender and not as a matter of pride. They think if we just give Putin everything he wants, then he's just going to take more. And if there are no security guarantees, then he's definitely going to take more. I spoke to soldiers, I've spoke to people on the street, we spoke to government officials. I've been to Ukraine many, many times over the last three years. And generally, the people that I was speaking to were saying, a bad deal is worse than no deal. We want a deal, but a bad deal is just going to set us up for failure. So people were not encouraged and they want the war to be over. Who wouldn't but they don't want that because like that that leads to worse outcomes pretty soon, pretty quickly.
- [30:16]
Yalda Hakim
So Richard, we've seen the landscaping, the Ukrainians being lambasted throughout the year. Donald Trump has accused Zelenskyy of starting the war and being ungrateful, as you say in the blow up that we saw at the White House, which was totally predictable. And then accusations of taking away military support and intelligence and concerns about basically telling the Europeans they need to step up, they're not doing enough. And now this peace plan has emerged. Just wrap up for us how Ukrainians as a whole have. You've been back and forth and we've both been in and out of the country, but you've just come out how they are taking all of this because it is a rollercoaster ride. They came out of the Biden administration being hailed heroes. But what Ukrainians are dealing with today is massive accusations of corruption against their government and the Zelensky inner circle. And there was always this kind of belief over the course of the last few years that, look, it's a wartime situation, it's martial law, we're not going to hold elections, we've got to throw our support behind Zelensky. But what we're finding now is huge accusations of corruption. His right hand man, Zelensky's right hand man has been forced to resign. Their homes have been raided. This is coming closer and closer into Zelensky's deep inner circle. Now are Ukrainians a feeling let down by their own government and angry the way that frankly Afghans did towards the end of the withdrawal from Afghanistan? And B, are they terrified that somehow they're going to be thrown under the bus again, a deal is going to be cut with the Russians. Do they think the Europeans are going to step in and give them the support they need to take this conflict to the next phase and have some kind of upper hand? Because right now it doesn't feel like that for the Ukrainians.
- [32:11]
Richard Engel
So I don't think Ukrainians are as angry with Zelensky as Afghans were at the end. Afghans, as we both saw, decided that their own government was so corrupt, so useless that it wasn't worth fighting for. And they just sort of watched the Taliban come in. Also, the previous Afghan government got on a plane and escaped. Zelensky did just the opposite. He stayed in Ukraine and he's been in Ukraine and he's giving messages every night of support and solidarity for the people. So I wouldn't say his popularity is at some sort of Terrible low right now. But he has this major corruption scandal within his inner circle. Zelenskyy was an actor mind, he was a comedian and ironically he played a president on tv and he came from that world of entertainment. And when he became president, a lot of the people from his entertainment background stayed with him and stayed in his inner circle. And a couple of them, one in particular, his right hand man, as you say, was.
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A very powerful individual in Ukraine, was seen as the second most powerful person in the country, operating often in the shadows. That he had a network of people who were loyal to him and was corrupt and now is being investigated officially for corruption. That's why the anti corruption authorities raided his house. And when they raided his house, he resigned as chief negotiation theater. So it's a blow. It's a blow right next to Zelensky. The sword didn't sort of cut his skin. But when you raid the house of your chief of staff and your longtime aide who's considered a powerful person in the country, who's been with you since you were an actor, that's frightening. And that's not good for Zelenskyy. So politically he's very weak. It's a blow to someone who used to be considered untouchable. And now starting to. The knives are starting to come out and they're getting a little bit of. They're doing a little damage.
- [34:20]
Yalda Hakim
Well, certainly the Trump administration lot, you know, basically trying to highlight it. I spoke to Don Jr. Donald Trump's son here at the Doha Forum. Global elites gather here in Doha, several thousand people to talk about global issues. And I had Don Jr. On stage with me and when we talked about great power, competition, rivalry with China, the family's personal and private investments, his dad's foreign policy, what he described as achievements ending multiple wars. And he talked about Gaza as well, because of course that's critical here for the Qataris. When it came to Ukraine, he was bullish, he was animated, he became aggressive. I asked him if Donald Trump and the Trump administration were going and not.
- [35:09]
Richard Engel
In favor of Ukraine. Not at all. We gotta go 10 defend Ukraine and make sure that sort of totalitarianism doesn't spread and that the Russian. Not at all Soviet empire or the Putin empire, that Russian force doesn't head west. That was not his philosophy.
- [35:26]
Yalda Hakim
Absolutely not. I mean, we talk there about the corruption scandal that's engulfed the Zelensky administration, but that was his main talking point. He talked to me about how he was recently in Monaco with his girlfriend and he said, I saw Lamborghinis I saw Bugattis. I saw some of the best cars on the planet on the streets. And he said, what did they have Ukrainian number plates?
- [35:52]
Donald Trump Jr.
I was this summer with my beautiful girlfriend Bettina in Monaco, and we were driving around, and on an average day, 50% of the Supercars, the Bugattis, the Ferraris, the. This all had Ukrainian plates. Do we think that was actually earned in Ukraine? I'd been to Ukraine 20 years ago. It wasn't like there was a plethora of wealth there. And yet you see the number two there getting a for stealing hundreds of millions of dollars. You hear all the rumors about what's going on. When I see every license plate on a supercar in Monaco being Bugatti's, the rich fled. They let what they believed to be the peasant class fight these wars. And there was no incentive to stop, because as long as the money train was coming and they were stealing it, no one was auditing anything. The leaders, the decision makers, there was no reason for them to ever come to peace.
- [36:38]
Yalda Hakim
So that just gives you a sense of the conversation that we had.
- [36:42]
Richard Engel
Ukrainians just have their hands out and, you know, they have no plan.
- [36:46]
Yalda Hakim
He really went after Zelenskyy and the corruption and the way that he really sort of made it personal and described Zelenskyy as a deity to the left. And. And the Biden administration built him up. And actually, Ukraine is far more corrupt than the Russians are, you know, far.
- [37:01]
Richard Engel
More corrupt than the Russians are.
- [37:02]
Yalda Hakim
He said that.
- [37:03]
Gul Bukhari
That.
- [37:03]
Yalda Hakim
That U.S. treasury had listed Ukraine before the war as more corrupt than. Than Russia. And yet that. That information went away as soon as the war started because. Because everyone's thriving on a war economy and profiteering from. From Ukraine. That gives you a window, Richard, into.
- [37:21]
Richard Engel
How this administration let me just. Having spent so much time in Ukraine. Now, I'm not saying that every Ukrainian is perfect, that there's been no corruption. There's so much money that has been flowing in Ukraine, some's going missing, and I'm not justifying it, but that happens when there's lots of money around, some of it, you know, falls away, no doubt. But throughout the war, which has lasted nearly four years, what has impressed me, I'm sure has impressed you and certainly impressed people who've been watching the reports, is that Ukrainians have pulled together. You go to the gas station. We did a podcast. I was in a gas station. I remember I stopped by the side of the road. Everything is about supporting the war. When you fill up your tank, you can get a slightly More expensive gas. And it goes to funding the war. People are donating their time. They're building drones. I went to a drone secret underground lab, and people in there who are. Some of them were just kind of regular civilians. A couple guys worked in a restaurant. One was a chef. But they've trained themselves now to be electrical engineers. And they're making with, you know, soldering irons. They were modifying drones using 3D printers to print their own drones working in extraordinarily dangerous situations. So to say that they're just sitting around, you know, collecting money, sending their Bugattis to Monaco to get an extra wax job or whatever he was saying is just an absolute misrepresentation of the mood of the culture and of the. The fighting spirit that this country has demonstrated for four years.
- [39:01]
Yalda Hakim
What it gives you an insight, and you and I have captured through our reporting the sentiment and the determination of the Ukrainian people to ensure that they remain free and push back on Russian aggression is this gives you an insight of the perception of the Trump administration, how they view Ukraine and their policies that are shaping towards Ukraine in favor of Russia is coming from this fundamental belief that. And this narrative that is now, as you say, no doubt Ukraine is a corrupt country. The leadership are corrupt. They're being investigated. But to paint all Ukrainians as just.
- [39:42]
Richard Engel
And therefore they're not worth our help.
- [39:44]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, absolutely. Which brings us, Richard, to the national security strategy that we've seen emerge this week. Because the Russians, you were saying, they loved it. They loved it, right? And the Europeans are angry and terrified and insulted.
- [39:58]
Gul Bukhari
What?
- [39:59]
Richard Engel
The Russians love the American national security strategy. I was like. I almost had to read that when I was like, what? Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
- [40:07]
Yalda Hakim
But, you know, just to give sort of, you know, an idea of, why don't you tell.
- [40:12]
Richard Engel
Why don't you tell everyone what the new national security strategy says? And what is the national, US national security strategy? Set this one up a little bit.
- [40:20]
Yalda Hakim
I'm just going to take you back to 2017. I sat down with Donald Trump's then National Security Advisor, H.R. mcMaster. General H.R. mcMaster. Basically, it is the doctrine that lays out the strategy for the administration and gives you a sense of the direction of the administration, the direction of travel that the country should take in terms of its domestic and foreign policies. And so this doctrine comes out. The strategy comes out in 2017. Suddenly it shifted, and the focus was great power rivalry with. They described it as the age of great power rivalry with China and Russia. And they said the war on terror had come to an end. The focus now was this rivalry with China and then dealing with an aggressive Russian. And at the time, there was a lot of questions being asked about Russian meddling in US politics. So the focus and the shift very much had hardened towards China. That was the point where the United.
- [41:25]
Richard Engel
States, welcome to Cold War ii.
- [41:26]
Yalda Hakim
Correct. All of that sort of stuff off the back of the Obama years, which was very much like, well, there's space for everyone and let's reset with Russia and pivot towards Asia and there's room for everyone. The Trump administration, the first time round, took a very hard line approach to China. But what Trump did in 2016, 2017, was make very clear what he believed in. It became very clear that he believed in power over principles. He believed in personality politics. He believed in the fact that you had to be wealthy to be powerful and dominate. And also made clear that, that sure, there's this rivalry, but America is not going to come to the rescue of the world. You know, we have to focus on America first and what we saw post the Second World War, the strategy that the United States put out to shape the world order and basically talk about American power, American power for good, intervening where necessary. That world order that had dominated for decades was coming to an end. America was not coming to the rescue of the world and American power was going to be used for America, American first policies. This feels very much like it has cemented that. Criticizing European allies, talking about the fact that there was one line in there. And Rory Stewart, host of the Rest Is Politics podcast, a friend of you and I, he's a politician, you know.
- [42:59]
Richard Engel
A great guy and an overall great guy. Let me just, I don't, you know, I don't want to overall do it, but a really nice guy, really nice guy, well read, can speak about anything, not only with great expertise, but also pleasant. You enjoy his company.
- [43:13]
Yalda Hakim
He is here at the Doha Forum. He took on one of these MAGA guys on a panel that I did, saying, your national security strategy that has just come out says that NATO is going to be dominated by non Europeans. What do you mean by that? And he said, well, all these immigrants that have invaded Europe, that's what we're talking about. And he said, we. But they're Europeans because they are European citizens. No. And he said, so you're basically saying anyone who's not white, anyone who's brown, is non European. And that is going to become the shape and face of Europe.
- [43:46]
Richard Engel
Who was Rory pushing on this?
- [43:47]
Yalda Hakim
He was pushing this MAGA social media guy, Alex Bruschowitz, who is Donald Trump's main social media platformer, who was basically the MAGA representative on my panel. And Rory Stewart really took him on about it, saying, what do you mean? And it's not for you Americans to comment on our politics in Europe. But also pushing a conservative, Christian, hardline approach, far right approach to European politics through your national security strategy. And that feels like the basis of this strategy as well.
- [44:21]
Richard Engel
I also just another core of it. Yeah.
- [44:23]
Yalda Hakim
Another observation, Richard, before you give me your views, is this very much feels like a national security strategy in the age of social media. You know, I just talk there about the Second World War and how that was about shaping the world for decades, decades, and shaping alliances with European partners, with Asian partners to project American power on the world. This is very much about Donald Trump as an individual and basically saying Asia through the lens of Xi Jinping, Russia, Ukraine and part of Europe through the lens of Vladimir Putin, Turkey through the lens of Erdogan, India and the subcontinent through the lens of Modi. He's basically saying individuals are going to drive the policies in these places, which more or less empowers him. And a national security strategy in the age of social media.
- [45:16]
Richard Engel
Did you ever see the movie Jerry Maguire?
- [45:18]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, of course. Classic.
- [45:20]
Richard Engel
It's a classic, right? Tom Cruise. And the basic premise of the movie is he's a sports agent and he works for this kind of cutthroat, somewhat sleazy sports agency where it's just about the money and he grows disillusioned and he writes this manifestation though, Right. And the US national security strategy, in my opinion, has always been like that Jerry Choir manifesto. It's a set of principles. These are our priorities this year. This is what we want to do as a nation. And this year it was about Europe and it was about how Europe is, is losing its way and is no longer European because it's taking in all these immigrants and it's basically falling apart and that we should stop, support those who don't like this trend. But for the US to say, okay, this is our pro, this is our national security, Europe is falling apart and, you know, Russia basically has it.
- [46:15]
Yalda Hakim
Right?
- [46:16]
Richard Engel
That's, that's was, well, was very new and it caught a lot of people's attention and Russia liked it, Europe hated it, basically.
- [46:24]
Yalda Hakim
It doesn't feel though, like there is a plan. You know, we heard Don Jr there talking about Europeans not having a plan for Ukraine. It doesn't feel within this strategy. Okay, so you've highlighted these issues and these concerns exactly. What have you laid out? You've sort of just talked about power, the use of power, wealth, power over principles, fragmenting these alliances that have existed for decades, since the Second World War and even before that. What is the plan now? And it just doesn't feel. And that's why I describe it as the National Security Strategy in the age of social media, because it does feel chaotic and confusing and within the that, it feels like Donald Trump will just thrive. I'm just going to read you part of the National Security Strategy. It says we want to support our allies in preserving the freedom and security of Europe while restoring Europe's civilization, self confidence and Western identity. The larger issues facing Europe include activities of the European Union and other transnational bodies that undermine political liberty and sovereignty, migration, policies that are transforming the continent, creating struggle, strife, censorship of free speech and suppression of political opposition, cratering birth rates and loss of national identities and self confidence. So that part of the National Security strategy focused on Europe, which as you say, has angered and incensed many Europeans. But we'll have to keep a really close eye on how the administration actually does try and incentivize influence politics in Europe as well.
- [48:07]
Richard, so good as always to see you. I know that you'll be traveling again before Christmas, and I look forward to catching up next week.
- [48:15]
Richard Engel
I do, too. And a final call out for the questions for our Christmas Q and A. We really want to hear from you. So please write to us and surprise us. Ask something fun. I mean, why not? What do we have to lose? We look forward to hearing from you. And you can write to us@theworldsky.uk till next time. Until next time. It's fabulous to see you, Yalda. You always have so many interesting things to say at the Doha Forum with Donald Trump Jr. Now you've been deep faked. We have fun. It's great to talk to you.
- [48:52]
Yalda Hakim
Really good to talk to you, Richard. Thanks so much. See you soon.
- [48:54]
Richard Engel
See you soon. Bye.
- [49:18]
Sophie
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