← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
How Pakistan became the peacemaker in the Middle East
00:33:59
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- [00:03]
Yalda Hakeem
Sky News, the full story first. Hello, I'm Yelda and I'm currently in London.
- [00:17]
Richard Engel
And I'm Richard Engel and I'm in Jerusalem.
- [00:21]
Yalda Hakeem
This film of a nun being attacked
- [00:23]
Sam Coates
in Jerusalem has stunned people and caused international outrage.
- [00:30]
Richard Engel
Two US commercial ships, along with American destroyers have already safely transited the strait, showing the lane is clear. We know the Iranians are embarrassed by this fact. They said they control the strait. They do not.
- [00:50]
Sam Coates
There is a massive hole in this building behind me here in central Moscow, the result of a drone attack overnight in what is one of the deepest strikes inside the Russian capital.
- [01:16]
Richard Engel
The battle for control of the Strait of Hormuz continues, intensifies and now has a new name as President Trump launches Project Freedom to try to force open the strait. Iran says its resistance has not even begun yet as a fragile ceasefire looks close to the breaking point.
- [01:36]
Yalda Hakeem
Yeah, and Richard, as we know, Donald Trump needs to wrap this war up. We've gone into more than eight or nine weeks of this conflict, although we are in this fragile ceasefire moment. According to one major poll, Donald Trump's approval ratings are at an all time low. Gas prices continue to soar and of course, peace negotiations, they're not entirely frozen at the moment. And I'm going to explain the role that Pakistan has been playing in all of this.
- [02:08]
Richard Engel
Look forward to that. And let's also talk about Russia and the growing anxieties within the ruling elite as a drone strikes deep in central Moscow. So stick around to hear about that and as always, follow us on Spotify and Apple. Write to us@theworldky.uk and watch us on YouTube. Just look for the World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakeem. All right, let's get going.
- [02:38]
Yalda Hakeem
So, Richard, things really heating up in the Strait of Hormuz again. And we can talk about that in a moment. But I see you're back in Jerusalem and things are, of course, tense there as well. I really want to talk about the shocking video that we all saw last week of a nun being pushed over in quite a violent way and then kicked. A 36 year old man has been arrested on suspicion of racially motivated assault, but no charges have been brought as yet. And of course, this is all part of a sort of wider rise of violence towards Christian communities in the Old City. You've been tracking the story. Just, just talk us through it.
- [03:24]
Richard Engel
So for those who didn't see this video, and it was very disturbing to watch and brutal, but now we get so many disturbing, brutal videos that, you know, whiz by our. The screens on our phones or our laptops. This one showed a nun dressed as a nun walking down the street minding her own business. And she's approached by a adult. I wouldn't say young man. He's sort of a prime adult man, Jewish man, comes up to her, deliberately throws her to the ground, pushes her, shoves her. She hits the ground. She could have died. The grounds are stone here. So she hit her head on the pavement, got a bruise on her face, and then came back and kicked her until another bystander, another local Jewish man in the neighborhood, pulled him off, kicked him. And the incident was condemned by the local authorities. It was condemned by police. The nun is recovering. I've reported the story out and wanted to find out what happened to her. She's recovering, and she's received many condolence calls. But what struck me is I spoke to a nun. I spoke to a monk. I spoke to the head of the Christian community in Jerusalem. I spoke to a Jewish activist who works to curb Jewish extremism. And all of them told me this kind of thing. Not necessarily throwing someone to the ground and coming back and kicking them, but spitting on, particularly spitting and insulting and intimidating Christians, particularly Christian members of the church. People who are dressed either as priests or monks or nuns is a daily occurrence now. Daily. And it's a real problem. It's growing. And all of these people said the nun had been spit at in the face. And this was an older elderly woman. She was in her. She's in her 50s. She's been living here for about 20 years, originally from Germany. And she says that every time she comes to Jerusalem, she lives just outside. She's worried, she's afraid. And we did the interview inside the hall that many Christians consider to be the hall where Jesus had the Last Supper with his disciples. And this was a Passover dinner. And to hear a nun standing in this room saying she's afraid and that she gets some sort of aggression, often spit at every time she comes to the city was shocking to hear. And all of these different sources say that this is part of a trend. It didn't just begin on October 7, but that the current government is turning a blind eye and therefore encouraging this kind of radicalism and extremism. And most of it is taking place primarily in one area in a part of the. Of the Old City that is called the Jewish Quarter. But not only.
- [06:44]
Yalda Hakeem
It's really, I mean, horrendous when you think about Jerusalem as a city, what it represents for the Christian community there to feel targeted, afraid, worried. It really is, it really is very disturbing. And that video in particular, Richard, I saw it a number of times on social media and you know, there was global condemnation of it. But the fact that this nun was just walking along, you know, minding her own business, and out of nowhere she was attacked in this way. And like I said, A 36 year old man has been arrested. No charges have been brought as yet, but it is part of a growing trend and concern about the current government in, in Israel and its inability to safeguard the citizens, whether they are Palestinians, Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Muslims, the various different commun. It's a melting pot. And the fact that these communities don't feel safe there is really disturbing.
- [07:49]
Richard Engel
Not only, according to this activist I spoke to, is the government not doing enough to protect Christians in Jerusalem and in what they refer to as the Holy Land. They say that Netanyahu and the government around him, particularly his Minister of Security, Ben Gvir, are openly encouraging this kind of thing. Particularly after Israel went on the warpath after October 7th. It was a 911 type event, a tragedy that the people weren't expecting. Made them angry, it made them surprised, and it has caused extremism to rise. And the accusation is not only is this government not doing enough to curb the extremism, that they are encouraging it by turning a blind eye. Because this happens all the time, multiple sources have told me every day. And the Christian community generally, they're not reporting it as much because they don't think they'll get anywhere. This nun, we were speaking in this, in this hall that I was describing earlier with great historic resonance. She told me how a man and his girlfriend, also Jewish extremists, came up. He had filled up his mouth with water so that it wouldn't just be spit, it would be full. Came up right to her face and blew it all into, into her face and then walked away laughing with the girlfriend.
- [09:19]
Yalda Hakeem
That's really.
- [09:20]
Richard Engel
And this happens, she says this kind of thing all the time. The formal official response to this incident came from the Foreign Ministry posting a statement on X that reads, quote, this shameful act stands in direct contradiction to the values of respect, coexistence and religious freed upon which Israel is founded and to which it remains deeply committed. Israel remains firmly committed to safeguarding freedom of religion and freedom of worship for all faiths and to ensuring that Jerusalem remains a city where every community can live, pray and practice its faith in safety and dignity.
- [09:57]
Yalda Hakeem
And as we said, I mean, things are. The tension is continuing to rise and there has been this shift in Israel, especially after October 7th. Richard, should we talk about what is happening with this wider war with Iran? Because we are in the middle of what is seen as sort of a fragile ceasefire. But things are heating up again. And it's very much when you look at the last sort of few weeks, it's clear that both Iran and the United States do not want to escalate things again. Iran wants the bombing to stop, and the United States wants the Strait of Hormuz to open up. And it also wants Iran to come up with some concessions in terms of its nuclear program. So the situation we find ourselves in now is, you know, on February 28th, the Strait of Hormuz, as we know, was open. And now it feels like, well, Iran has the upper hand when it comes to this chokehold. More than 2,000 vessels are waiting to pass through the Strait of Hormuz. The United States has now declared this Project Freedom, where essentially they say that they're going to guide some of these vessels through the Strait of Hormuz. But in the last 24 hours or so, we've seen an oil tanker, an Emirati oil tanker being attacked, the Iranians claiming that they've hit a US Vessel, the Americans saying that's not the case and that they have done damage to small boat, Iranian small boats. So we are in this situation where suddenly, you know, this phrase the fog of war is something that we're so used to hearing, but we feel like. It feels like we're in a fog of peace almost where we don't know how long the peace is going to last and where this entire thing could go. Could Donald Trump escalate this war again? Or could the Iranians force them to escalate by attacking Gulf states? It is just such a precarious moment that we're in right now.
- [12:16]
Richard Engel
The fog of peace. I love that. Yes, there is a tug of war going on right now between the United States and Iran over who gets to be the traffic cop in the Strait of Hormuz, who gets to direct traffic on this oil and gas superhighway. Iran says it must maintain this role, at least until there is a real ceasefire and an end of hostilities. And then you can go back to the status quo. Anti and the US President Trump are saying, no, you didn't get the point. See all our warships? The US Military is going to be commanding this strait and making sure it's open for everyone except ships docking in or trying to dock in Iran. And that's this sort of new mission. And now the Iranians are going to China and President Trump is going to China. And we'll see if maybe China can be the peace broker here because at the end of the day, 90% of Iran's oil ends up being sold to China.
- [13:24]
Yalda Hakeem
And we haven't seen any kind of real peace proposal, you know, sort of come into effect. But Richard, let's take a break because after the break, I really want to talk about negotiations, where they're at and the role of Pakistan because, you know, Pakistan has been playing quite an interesting role as a facilitator, negotiator, mediator in this current crisis and conflict.
- [14:03]
Sam Coates
I'm Sam Coates from Sky News.
- [14:05]
Yalda Hakeem
And I'm Anne McElroy from POLITICO.
- [14:07]
Sam Coates
Downing Street Drama, leadership, battles and policy. U Turns we're on it before it breaks.
- [14:13]
Yalda Hakeem
We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening.
- [14:17]
Sam Coates
Smart insight, clear analysis in your feeds by 7:45am so you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics.
- [14:25]
Yalda Hakeem
Hit follow and listen to politics at Sam and Anne's, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the World podcast. So, Richard, something that we haven't really touched on in the podcast. We've talked at length about this, this war, how it started, the ceasefire or the lack of a ceasefire, certainly in places like Lebanon. But the, the negotiations that have taken place and the role that, that Pakistan in particular, its Field Marshal, Asim Munir, you know, this, this character, this incredibly powerful character we've spoken about, you know, sort of who he is in the past on this podcast, in other contexts. But in terms of these negotiations, Pakistan's role, I've just found it incredibly interesting and fascinating.
- [15:27]
Richard Engel
So help me understand this, because for many years, Pakistan was the bad guy. Pakistan's intelligence service, the Pakistani military, isi, the S swing, all of these organizations were spoken about in terms of helping the Taliban, helping extremists, hiding Osama bin Laden. The US famously threatened Pakistan after 911 saying, get on board, help us or we're going to blow you back to the Stone Age. And now they're not only on the US's good side, they're the peacemakers, they're the trusted intermediary. Asim Munir is a favorite of Donald Trump Pakistan. Phil Marshall is a very great guy and so is the prime minister. Both. How did this happen? What happened?
- [16:18]
Yalda Hakeem
Yeah. So, Richard, Donald Trump has described Asim Munir as his favorite field marshal. And he first came to Donald Trump's attention during that war between India and Pakistan about a year ago, where he saw him as quite an interesting strongman, strategist, someone who, you know, at the end of that kind of the heat of that war where you saw these two nuclear armed states, you know, going to war with each other and Donald Trump sort of saying, I'm, you know, facilitated the peace talks around that. Asimani came to his attention. And, you know, separate to that, Pakistan and Iran have always had good relations. During the, the Nowruz, the Persian New Year celebrations, the new supreme leader, the son of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Mushaba Khamenei, talked about Pakistan and how his father always viewed Pakistan fondly. And he was talking about Pakistan in the context of the clashes with Afghanistan, calling on the two sides, you know, these brotherly regional, neighboring countries to come to some kind of peaceful resolution, resolution in the clashes that they were having. And he talked very fondly about Pakistan. So Asim Munir, a favorite field marshal of Donald Trump, Pakistan, seen as a good ally of Iran, suddenly emerges as potential facilitator, mediator in any kind of ceasefire talks. And so we saw the Prime Minister Shabaz Sharif put out a tweet on X about sort of two and a half, three weeks ago, early April, calling on both sides to de escalate and also calling for a two week ceasefire sort of process and saying, look, can I just ask for Donald Trump and Iran to bring down the tension and can we call for a ceasefire to facilitate these negotiations? And then, of course, we all saw J.D. vance, the US vice president, travel to Islamabad and senior delegation from Iran arrived there as well. Now, many described those talks as failed or that they had collapsed. But frankly, the fact that we had these senior American officials, the Vice President of the United States sitting across from senior officials from the Iranian authorities was a big deal. It was a big deal to sort of think of that image. It was an incredibly big deal.
- [19:07]
Richard Engel
Tell me what you think, India, of what Modi is thinking about all of this right now, because I don't think he can be too pleased to see Pakistan, which was isolated and ostracized and very much left out of diplomacy now with this close relationship with the Trump administration. But before you get into that, tell me what you're saying.
- [19:31]
Yalda Hakeem
Yeah, I mean, Asa Munir, born in the late 1960s, joined the Pakistani military in the mid-1980s, 1986, I believe he spent some time in Saudi Arabia as well, as part of a deal to train for Pakistan, to train Saudi forces. He is a spy master. He was Head of the military intelligence as well as the isi. So, you know, he's held these key roles and he's perhaps the most powerful person in Pakistan right now and the most powerful general since General Perez Musharraf. So, you know, he has a lot of power. And he also has Donald Trump's ear. Apparently when he was in Tehran a few weeks ago, meeting with both Iranian diplomats and senior leaders from the Revolutionary Guard, he was constantly, you know, had the U.S. administration, the Trump administration, on speed dial. So he has the ear of both sides. And he doesn't necessarily have very deep or close relations with the Revolutionary Guard. But as a military man, he understands the importance of having an all in approach with Iran. So it can't just be diplomacy with the diplomats. You've got to bring in the Revolutionary Guard, the Iranian military wing as well. He gets that because the Pakistani military plays such a huge role in Pakistan's affairs. So he understands the role that the Revolutionary Guard needs to play in any future negotiations and the importance of that. So Arsene Munir is now walking this incredibly sensitive and fragile tightrope trying to manage these two sides. And at the same time, you know, there is a level of distrust because Pakistan, at the end of the day, there is a client patron relationship between Pakistan and the United States, Pakistan and the Gulf states. And so, for example, when Saudi Arabia particularly, which you already Saudi Arabia, and they've got a defense pact with the Saudis. But for example, when the ceasefire was announced by the Pakistanis and the United States and Iran agreed to that ceasefire, the understanding that the Pakistanis had and what they made public was that of course, Lebanon is part of this ceasefire. And immediately Israel and the United States said it's absolutely not part of the part of the ceasefire. So then Pakistan kind of almost didn't say anything publicly around that. Even the attacks that the Iranian regime has launched on the Gulf states, the Pakistani authorities have been quick to come out and condemn it. So it does mean that Pakistan is in this tricky situation, trying to develop trust with the Iranians and they've got Donald Trump's ear. But how do you bring these two sides together when both sides are waiting for the other side to frankly blink and to make concessions.
- [22:32]
Richard Engel
Well, thank you for all of that. A fascinating bio of maybe the most powerful Field Marshal in the world right now. And what a change for Pakistan. But as I was trying to get to earlier, and I was very excited about it. And what about India? India, the huge neighbor now most populous country on earth, always considered Pakistan to be a threat at war in Kashmir with Pakistan currently. A lot of animus, a lot of terrible history from going back to their division. How are they. How is Modi seeing Pakistan's return to the sun?
- [23:10]
Yalda Hakeem
You know, it's really interesting because when you watch Indian television networks and you know, you know how colorful they are, you know, in terms of just the coverage is really very intense and high octane and everything is breaking news and
- [23:28]
Richard Engel
there are news screens, there's so many graphics. I watch the Indian and Pakistani newscast sometimes. And if you think British or American TV is like fast, nothing graphic, you. You don't, you haven't seen anything. There's so many captions and so much movie boxes within buffing, then they're spinning. And I don't understand how any. It's sensory overload. But we digress.
- [23:51]
Yalda Hakeem
Yeah, but, but you know, when you watch any of these channels, there is sort of two debates that, that have been going on over the course of the last couple of weeks. The first one is how has Pakistan positioned itself this way, where it has the ear of Donald Trump and the trust of the Iranians and what role do we play? Why aren't we playing a role in all of this? You know, because India for decades viewed itself as a strategic partner of the United States. And of course, we saw those relations sour when Donald Trump whacked India with tariffs and sort of demanded that the Indians stop buying Russian oil and gas. And during the war with Pakistan, Donald Trump stepped in and said, you know, I have managed to call on both sides and, and come to some kind of peaceful resolution, which really got on the nerves of the Indians because they're like, look, you know, they view Pakistan as an annoyance rather than as an equal. So the idea that Donald Trump would hyphenate India and Pakistan really irritated Modi and the Indians.
- [24:56]
Richard Engel
Wait, tell me more about this. When was the hyphenation. So he reunited India and Pakistan in a sense, or in a. They became one country again. It's India pac, afpac.
- [25:08]
Yalda Hakeem
You know that the files in the State Department during the, during the US Presence in Afghanistan and whenever there were troubles with Pakistan, they would call it AFPAC.
- [25:17]
Richard Engel
Right.
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Yalda Hakeem
But India's like, we are not AFPak, we are not India Pak. You know, we are not part of some kind of hyphenation with Pakistan. We are a superpower in the region. So do not not sort of lump us together with, with Pakistan. We are, you know, where did Trump,
- [25:34]
Richard Engel
where did Trump India pack?
- [25:36]
Yalda Hakeem
Well, the way that he basically was like look, these two regional powers are at each other's throats. They've been at each other's throats for, he said at the time, hundreds of years, which, of course, everyone kind of scoffed at, because what are you, what are you even talking about? So, you know, things have been tense. The idea that Donald Trump would bring Modi together with Asim Munir or Shabazz Sharif or whoever to try and bring some kind of peaceful resolution irked the Indians. So the question for the Indians is, where do we fit in this debate? What is our role in facilitating. How has Pakistan positioned itself in this way and the other conversation? When you watch these TV networks, TV anchor Arnab Goswami did this kind of three minute monologue about referencing Donald Trump's threats to Iran when he said, we're gonna wipe the Iranian civilization out. And he talked about what civilization do the Americans have? We are civilizations and states that have existed for thousands of years. So, you know, they almost. He almost, you know, sort of talked about in the context of civilizations, the Chinese civilization, the Indian civilization, the Persian Empire, and what. That's what they've offered the world and what they've given to the world. And he gave this kind of very compelling, riveting monologue for three minutes, which went viral in. Across Iran. They loved it. You know, the fact that this powerful Indian commentator had come to the defense of Iran as a state, as an
- [27:11]
Richard Engel
empire, a lot of people feel that way. You have this new empire, 250 years old, with President Trump putting his picture on the commemorative passports, telling an ancient civilization how it should live, whether it's the ancient Persians or the people of the subcontinent. And there have been many different civilizations there saying, hey, we weren't just born yesterday. This land has been fertile at the. Where the, where the Karakorum and Himalayan mountains end into this lush, fertile floodplain. There have been people there of great sophistication and culture for a very, very long time before Donald Trump came on the scene.
- [27:55]
Yalda Hakeem
Yeah. So he's certainly, you know, ruffled a few feathers in India.
- [28:00]
Richard Engel
So, quickly, before we go, do you want to talk about Russia? Because over the weekend, this drone penetrated a very sophisticated missile defense system in Moscow and struck a high rise building less than five miles from the Kremlin. And it's not the first time this has happened, but it's still quite rare. What are you hearing about how Russians and Vladimir Putin and the inner circle of oligarchs that run the country are feeling when the war arrives at their doorstep, arrives at Their neighborhood. And by the way, the front lines are locked. The Russians are not advancing. Despite the offensive, despite the fact that the world is focusing on the Strait of Hormuz and the Middle east, the Russians haven't been able to break through the Ukrainians front line. They're holding solid and they're just sending drones a couple of miles from the Kremlin. Is it rattling Putin? There are some reports that he's not none too pleased.
- [29:06]
Yalda Hakeem
Yeah, I mean, you know, it obviously works to the benefit of the European intelligence agencies when they put out reports to say that Vladimir Putin is gripped by paranoia. There's often speculation, Richard, about Vladimir Putin's mental health state, his physical health. You know, there are always rumors circulating that he's unwell or he's incredibly paranoid. And there are some reports that have emerged that he has become incredibly paranoid that he's concerned about a potential coup. You know, again, these, these are all sort of things that are rumors and gossip and speculation, but these are circulating again and that Vladimir Putin is apparently really paranoid about being assassinated or for their via drone attack or that there might be some kind of coup attempt by Russian elites. I mean, our Moscow correspondent Ivor Bennett was telling us that the Internet has been shut down in Moscow as well ahead of Victory Day, which of course is the victory celebration following the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany. And you know, there are huge celebr in Moscow, but the Internet has been shut down ahead of that. On top of that, US and European intelligence has for the longest time reported that the death toll of those, you know, the Russian fighters in Ukraine is at an average of about 30 to 35,000 per month. So it's a proper meat grinder. They're not moving on the front lines, as you say. And then these drones are able to, to penetrate deep into Russian territory in Moscow as well.
- [30:58]
Richard Engel
Yeah, exactly. Russians are feeling increasingly ostracized when they travel. They're being kicked out of restaurants. People don't like them. Nobody wants to feel that. People like to feel that they're the good guys and that they're fighting a war for a reason or for a purpose. But there is this. You can't just keep recruiting people to fight in a war of choice year upon year. And they're losing thousands and thousands of fighters every single month. Those Russians have to be replaced with other Russians or North Koreans or they're finding African recruits, but they still need to put field bodies and put them into the battle. And there was this, did you see this? Russian reality star Victoria Bunya. She posted this 18 minute long Instagram video and there's lots of Instagram videos out there. And this one was saying that Russia, that if Putin's not careful, the country could, could snap because of the erosion of digital freedoms in the country. It got 31 million views and a million likes. So it touched a nerve.
- [32:01]
Yalda Hakeem
Absolutely. And I believe the Kremlin made a rare kind of response to it as well, which, as we know, everything is so tight lipped and there aren't leaks. But that is also part of the paranoia that we're starting to see leaks coming out of the Kremlin. So Vladimir hasn't been to any kind of military sites this year and he visited several last year. So he has sort of become more of a recluse. He's spending apparently a lot of time, according to these reports and these claims, he's spending a lot of time in bunkers. His family and he are not going to visit their holiday homes. So there's a lot of paranoia. While this war with Iran is, you know, this fragile ceasefire is holding and not holding United States and the world is preoccupied somewhere else. The war with Ukraine continues. But the big question is, I mean, how long can can they sustain this? Because anyone watching that situation is saying it's unsustainable.
- [33:08]
Richard Engel
Well, Putin should just do the easy thing, just change the name and then no one will ever know. People will forget that they were in a war. Like this administration apparently is hoping that Congress will forget that it is still in a conflict in the Strait of Hormuz, but under a different name, under a different mandate. So maybe he just calls it something else and everyone forgets
- [33:30]
Yalda Hakeem
that's a solution.
- [33:31]
Richard Engel
Richard, it is wonderful to see you.
- [33:35]
Yalda Hakeem
Likewise.
- [33:36]
Richard Engel
We covered a lot of ground today. It was fun. I hope everyone enjoyed it as much as I did. Until next time, Yalda.
- [33:43]
Yalda Hakeem
Until next time. Thanks so much for listening.
- [34:08]
Sam Coates
I'm Sam Coates from Sky News.
- [34:10]
Yalda Hakeem
And I'm Anne McElroy from POLITICO.
- [34:12]
Sam Coates
Downing Street Drama, leadership battles and policy U Turns. We're on it before it breaks.
- [34:18]
Yalda Hakeem
We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening.
- [34:21]
Sam Coates
Smart engagement, insight, clear analysis in your feeds by 7:45am so you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics.
- [34:29]
Yalda Hakeem
Hit, follow and listen to politics at Sam and Anne's wherever you get your podcasts.