← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Imran Khan versus the military: What's just happened in Pakistan?
00:30:39
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- [00:01]
A
It's 2025, a new year and the perfect time to turn your business dreams into reality. Maybe you've been tossing around a great idea but haven't acted yet. Well, Shopify is how you're going to make it happen. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand open for business and make your first sale with thousands of customizable templates. You don't need coding or design skills, just drag, drop and go. Plus, Shopify's social media tools help you connect all your channels and create shoppable posts so you can sell everywhere your customers scrol. Managing your business is easy too. From shipping to taxes to payments, Shopify handles the details on a single dashboard, letting you focus on what really matters. Growing your business established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comdax all lowercase go to shopify.comdax to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.comdax.
- [01:07]
B
Hello and welcome to the world with me, Yalda, and I'm in London and.
- [01:11]
C
Me Richard, and I'm back in Ukraine. These amendments risk far reaching consequences for the principles of democracy which the Pakistani people hold dear.
- [01:24]
D
He's also subjected to, you know, translated in English is called death cell. It's where the terrorists and the people that are on death row are on and kept in complete isolation.
- [01:37]
B
Richard, so good to see you and happy Thanksgiving. It's my favorite holiday even though I grew up in Australia. We don't celebrate it. But how was it for you?
- [01:45]
C
It was great. It's my favorite as well. And we ended up having 20 people over 10 adults, 10 children. We accommodated everyone. A lot of people came in the last minute. It was really great. I think that's what Thanksgiving is all about. Pulling up an extra chair for somebody who wants to join in.
- [02:01]
B
That's so nice to hear. And of course we're going to do things a little bit different today. We're going to talk about Pakistan. You know, we often talk about what's going on in the Middle east and Ukraine, but we never really get a chance to have a look at what's happening in in Pakistan. The former prime minister and cricketing hero Imran Khan is in jail and he's been there for the last couple of years. There were fears this last week that he had died, but his sister has now confirmed that he's alive. But we that he is in solitary confinement. I've literally just spoken to one of his chief advisors and international spokes people about his situation. So we'll be talking about that and also what's happening in the countries. The head of the military in Pakistan has been given even more power. The country is a key player in the region and the world. So we'll be unpacking what's going on there.
- [02:59]
C
I look forward to hearing all of that. And I can give you an update from here in Ukraine. As peace talks grind on, as does the fighting, we'll discuss where we are with the negotiations and if we're likely to see any movement this week.
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B
And as always, follow us on Spotify or Apple. Watch us on YouTube. Just search the world with Richard and Yalda.
- [03:21]
C
And this is a formal request for questions for all of you for our Christmas Q and A special. Please ask us anything. Don't be shy. Maybe a story, story we've covered this year or something about us. Please get in touch@theworldsky.uk.
- [03:47]
B
Okay. So I just, I just want to talk you through what is going on in Pakistan. Because we spend so much time talking about the situation in the Middle east and Ukraine, we don't often get the chance to talk about this country. That, frankly, has been crucial at different twists and turns. You know, often they say about Pakistan, it becomes one of the most relevant countries on the planet and then it's completely forgotten. It was hugely significant after 9 11. It became one of the main partners for the United States in the war on terror. And then, of course, after the United States evacuated from Afghanistan, Pakistan has sort of almost been forgotten about. But in recent months, Donald Trump has sort of taken a liking to Pakistan's new army chief. He has also spoken quite highly about the Pakistani prime minister, Prime Minister Sharif.
- [04:48]
C
Of Pakistan, and also, I have to say, my favorite field marshal from Pakistan, who's not here, but the prime minister is here and you're going to give his regards. Where are you?
- [05:01]
B
So I just want to talk you through why Pakistan is suddenly relevant again and why it, frankly, matters. So it has a huge population, 250 million people, and it's an incredibly young population. The average age is around 20 years old. And it's the second largest Muslim majority country on the planet after Indonesia. It has strong ties with both the United States and China, So two major powers. It also has a border with China and India. And crucially, it is the only Muslim country with a nuclear weapon, which I think sometimes people forget until it's going head to head with, say, India. And, you know, we see another sort of flashpoint between those two countries. And suddenly there's, there's fear because both these two countries have nuclear weapons. But it is an emerging economic power as well. And it has growing investments in its region and a growing middle class as well. It has redeveloped and re established relationships with the Gulf states. So it has, you know, a Spanish special sort of bilateral ties with Saudi Arabia, with the United Arab Emirates, it's building ties with the Qataris as well. And you know, when Donald Trump was talking about his Gaza peace plan, he crucially talked about the fact that Pakistan was a country that was really behind this particular peace plan. And we saw in Sharm el Sheikh, when Donald Trump unveiled that 20 point peace plan and signed it, the deal, the Gaza peace plan, it was Pakistan's Prime Minister that he invited to the podium to come and talk about it and to congratulate Donald Trump and say that they were going to nominate Donald Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize.
- [07:00]
C
Today. Again, I would like to nominate this great president for Nobel Peace Prize because.
- [07:12]
D
I genuinely feel.
- [07:16]
C
That he is the most genuine and most wonderful candidate.
- [07:22]
B
So there's a multitude of things happening with Pakistan. Now the reason I want to talk about Pakistan today is because this big question around what is going on with Pakistan's former Prime Minister Imran Khan? Now, Imran Khan was thrown into prison in August 2023. He was convicted for a number of corrupt cases. He says they were all politically driven. And frankly, he's probably not wrong. Since Pakistan became an independent state in 1947, it's partition from India, there's been this incredibly uncomfortable relationship between the civilian government and the military and the intelligence services of Pakistan. There's been almost a power struggle. Different civilian governments have, when they've tried to take on the military, have found that, you know, they've been pushed out of power or silenced. And frankly, being a Prime Minister in Pakistan, it's almost part of the job description that you end up in prison. No Pakistani prime minister has ever served and then not ended up in prison and then not ended up cutting a deal with the military. So Pakistan has always had this very weird relationship between the civilian government and the military. Now, Imran Khan in many ways is a product of the military. You cannot come to power in Pakistan without cutting some kind of deal with the military. So he, he rose to power. He has a huge base and a genuine base in the country. A lot of people from the downtrodden, working class communities of Pakistan, especially in the Punjab region, which is where he's from, back him, support him. And that sort of level of genuine support and base for a leader in Pakistan is something that terrified the military. He also started to speak up against the military. And that's one of the charges that is laid against him, that he sort of caused an uprising within the country. But just in the last three weeks or so, there has been absolutely no proof of life when it has come to Imran Khan. His physician hasn't been able to visit him for at least a year. He's in solitary confinement.
- [10:01]
C
So Imran Khan, he's famous in certain circles. If you follow cricket, he's a legendary cricketer. But for those who don't know his story or don't follow much cricket, who is he? How did he get into politics? How did he become such a dominant personality in Pakistan?
- [10:20]
B
He was once one of the most famous sports people on the planet. He's 73 years old, but back in the heyday, he was a sex symbol. He was Pakistan's cricket captain. He took the cricket team from being a ragtag team to actually victory in a World Cup. And he was adored and beloved by women across the planet. I mean, as I said, he was seen as some kind of sex symbol. He had a string of girlfriends in the west, here in. In London as well. He ended up marrying one of the richest socialites, Jemima Goldsmith. She was in her early 20s. He was about 20 years older than her. They had this kind of very glamorous and romantic love affair. He whisked her away to Pakistan where she lived with him, and she had two children. Princess Diana was often seen traveling there and visiting them. So there was a lot of glamour around this couple. And then after nine years, it ended in divorce. Jemima returned to London. She still carries his name, Jemima Khan. She has two boys who are now adults, and they are campaigning for their father. Suleiman and Qasem Khan are their names. So there's been a lot of chatter around where Imran Khan actually is right now. Well, let's speak now to Zulfi Bukhari, advisor and international spokesperson to Imran Khan. Thanks so much for joining us, Mr. Bukhari. Can you just give us an update on Mr. Khan's situation and how he's currently doing?
- [12:13]
D
Well, one of the sisters today was allowed to meet him, Dr. Uzma, for a brief period of time. She came out and gave a very short press conference to the media outside the the prison, which we're very grateful for, especially the international media that showed up. But she just said that, you know, he was extremely furious. And he said that he's been Completely isolated, meaning, you know, probably in a 24 hour lockup, not being allowed outside, no access. As you know, no one has seen him until today for 30 days, 30 odd days. And he was furious that it's mental torture. And he said on both of us. So it's obvious that it's on him and his wife.
- [12:59]
B
Just talk us through the fact that he's in solitary confinement and what those conditions are like for him. I mean, I think most people remember Imran Khan as young, fit cricketer certainly in this country. But he's 73 years old and he's being kept in solitary confinement at the moment.
- [13:19]
D
First of all, the UN Working group on arbitrary detention has given a unanimous decision saying that he's been illegally imprisoned for his cases. They've also said that he should be immediately released. They said that he's only been put in prison so he couldn't contest the elections. They said that he should be released and given compensation and the people that put him in should be put on inquiry. So that's one side that how unfair and unjust all the cases were. But he's also subjected to, you know, I've spent a few nights in that cell as well. It's in, it's translated in English, it's called death cell. It's where the terrorists and the people that are on death row are on and kept away in complete isolation. And that's what he's been subjected to. Although the prisoner manual in Pakistan has different rules for someone who' taxpayer degree holder, a parliamentarian, let alone an ex Prime Minister. Now in the last 30 days what's happened is that there's been these ridiculous amendments that have changed a lot of the clauses in the constitution giving impunity to the Chief of Army Staff, to the President and other hierarchy in the army. And for that matter, Imran Khan has been isolated for 30 odd days without anyone seeing him, his family or his legal team. On the basis that even the Pakistan High Court, Islamabad High Court has given orders of names of people who are allowed to see him on a routine basis twice a week. But even there's a contempt of court and the court's instructions are being ignored just to keep him under isolation. And today after 30 days of protesting today a lot of people in thousands came out outside the High Court and outside the prison that he's in, international media showed up, there was hundreds of police deployed. Out of all of that, all that they managed was that one sister is allowed to go in and see him for you know, 10, 20 minutes which is insane. I mean, we're like being drip fed about who's allowed to see him because the court literally writes down six to eight names who's allowed to see him in every hearing, which is twice a week or every meeting twice a week, all of that is being ignored.
- [15:31]
B
Do you think it was the public pressure coming and the fact that his family, his sons, people like yourself, his sisters, were being so vocal about the fact that there was no proof of life. And we saw it spread like wildfire on social media where there was speculation about whether he was alive or dead, which led then to this kind of public pressure that has forced the authorities to allow someone to go and see him.
- [16:00]
D
Absolutely. I think there's a few factors to it. One, without it's the resilience of his sisters and even the chief minister of kp, the province that we have governance in, showing up and all the workers that show up every day and outside every hearing and outside every time there's a meeting, there's no doubt. And as the numbers increased, that definitely caused a lot of pressure. I think the main factor, if I do say so myself, via your podcast, is actually people like yourself and others is international media. Because there's one thing when they can confine it to us. Like the last week, one of the sisters was manhandled and brutally manhandled to the extent that she nearly fell unconscious. And all they were doing was eating food outside the prison, waiting to see that. Why can't they see their brother? So, but because it wasn't picked up in the same way by international media, they thought, okay, we can get away with it. But now the way that social media and international media joined on because local media has been silenced and completely crippled. But the way the international media has jumped on in the past five, six days, that's definitely caused most of the pressure.
- [17:15]
B
Help us understand how Asim Munir, the chief of the army, consolidating power, the changes that we've seen to Pakistan's constitution, how that directly impacts Imran Khan.
- [17:31]
D
You know, Yelda, and I know everyone's going to say that this is a very biased view, but everything that's being done in Pakistan in one way or the other is being done to tackle Imran Khan. Imran Khan's biggest enemy isn't the Chief of Army Staff Asimani. It's actually his own popularity. If he wasn't as popular as he is, he would have been out in house arrest or been allowed to be, you know, extradited, sent out abroad and would have Taken some, you know, refuge somewhere else. But it's his popularity that's actually kept him in jail and the fact that he just keeps getting more and more popular. So the new amendments that they've created is 100% to do with him and his party and all the laws and all the things they want to do around it to consolidate power.
- [18:21]
B
Ms. Bukhari, do you think that Imran Khan will ever be free?
- [18:26]
D
I think Imran Khan will not only be free, I think he will lead the country, the people. I think everyone's got it wrong. They always do about him. For the last 27, 30 odd years, when it comes to politics, he will again be free. And like I said, not only free, but he will lead the people to this democratic morality and change that the country has been thirsty for a very, very long time. And what you're seeing right now is a movement in the making. It may be slower to others like Sri Lanka, around us or Bangladesh or so on, but it certainly is getting there. And he's awaken everyone's, everyone's involved in politics.
- [19:11]
B
Thanks so much. Mr. Zulfi Bukhari Advisor and international spokesperson for Imran Khan.
- [19:25]
C
Yalda Fascinating interview. That power dynamic between the civilian government and the military in Pakistan has always been really at the heart of the country and the heart of the issue there. Do you think that Imran Khan is ever going to be freed?
- [19:41]
B
You know, Richard, those people who are die hard, Imran Khan supporters believe that he will eventually be freed and justice will be served. He's facing a multitude of life sentences, but just looking at the way that Pakistan is, the direction it's going in, the way the army chief and the military have consolidated power, the changes that they've made to the constitution and frankly, for as long as the Trump administration is in power and the fact that the army chief, the prime minister currently have endeared themselves to him, I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.
- [20:21]
C
So he remains out of sight and his spirit kept alive by his supporters on the street.
- [20:25]
B
Very much so. Okay, so let's have a quick break now and when we come back, let's talk to Richard about what's going on on the ground in Ukra.
- [20:37]
A
Foreign. It's 2025, a new year and the perfect time to turn your business dreams into reality. Maybe you've been tossing around a great idea but haven't acted yet. Well, Shopify is how you're going to make it happen. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand open for business and make your first sale with thousands of customizable templates. You don't need coding or design skills, just drag, drop and go. Plus, Shopify's social media tools help you connect all your channels and create shoppable posts so you can sell everywhere your customers. Scroll. Managing your business is easy too. From shipping to taxes to payments, Shopify handles the details on a single dashboard, letting you focus on what really matters. Growing your business, established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comdax all lowercase go to shopify.comdax to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.comdax.
- [21:56]
B
Welcome back to the world. Okay, Richard, so just give us an update on where negotiations are for PE in Ukraine. President Zelensky has been meeting Emmanuel Macron in France and President Trump special envoy Steve Witkoff and his son in law Jared Kushner are in Moscow to meet with President Putin. So what's happening and what are the Ukrainians seeing?
- [22:19]
C
So this is a very dark time for Ukraine, and we've said that before, but it's been a tough war for Ukraine. They were invaded nearly four years ago. They've been fighting for their survival and they've had moments when it looks looked like things were going in Ukraine's favor when they were capturing cities and taking territory back from Russia. But this is a tough time. They're losing on the battlefield. Russian troops are making slow but grinding advances. The Russians are continuing their attacks all over the country in civilian areas. I'm in the city of Mykolaiv right now and there was an attack here yesterday and there was a blackout in the city. And that that's pretty common where the power grid is attacked in this country and the electricity and heating and running water and everything shuts down. It's a tough time and it's a tough time diplomatically because now the Ukrainians and the Russians, with the Trump administration in the middle, are playing a game of sort of pass the peace proposal. And the initial proposal, this 28 point plan, seemed very much like it was written with the Russians interests in mind because the initial peace plan looked like it could have been drafted by Vladimir Putin, as we've talked about in the past. Then that peace plan was modified twice, first in Geneva, then in Miami. And now this modified document is going back to Vladimir Putin for discussions. But it's not looking good for Ukraine. This was a proposal that started out very much in Russia's favor. It's been modified somewhat since then. We don't know the exact details anymore. President Zelensky says it's a 20 point plan, not a 28 point plan anymore. He says that territory is the most complicated issue so far, but it is based on President Putin's maximalist demands, which is that Ukraine give up all the territory that Russia has taken by force and more, and that the world acknowledged this territorial loss, which is a significant blow for Ukraine and other limitations on this country's military alliances, NATO, its economic future. There's real questions here that are being debated, and many Ukrainians worry that President Trump and his team are in such a rush to get a deal done that you squeeze the guy who can be squeezed and you use the leverage over the country that you have the most leverage, which is, in this case, Ukraine. Because if you want to get a deal and you want to get to a deal fast, you want to get to yes, the easiest way would be to pressure Ukraine to get a yes. And seems like Putin feels like he's in a pretty strong position. So seen here from Ukraine, it's looking tough.
- [25:13]
B
Yeah. And you see Vladimir Putin floating around in military fatigues, giving the impression that he has the upper hand when it comes to the battlefield, which is a direct signal to Donald Trump, telling him, listen, you know, I've got all the cards here. And this guy you've got in Kiev, Volodymyr Zelensky, is not just losing militarily, but he's going to lose diplomatically as well. And he's got his begging bowl. He's asking you and the Europeans for help and support. And actually, what you need to do is cut a deal with me. I think I always remember what you said at the very beginning of, of all of this sort of chatter around peace talks. You said when the Europeans were worried about not being at the table, when the Ukrainians weren't worried, were worried about being at the not at the table, you said, you know, that the Ukrainians had said, if you're not at the table, you're on the table. And right now it feels very much like that. And, you know, whether Putin comes out of this and, you know, the Americans are able to get a yes out of the Russians, we'll have to wait and see if they, if they actually do decide to say, yep, okay, we'll take this deal. Because actually, it serves us.
- [26:27]
C
Because look at the, look at the delegation that went to Moscow. You have Jared Kushner suddenly involved, even though he hasn't really been handling this portfolio. He's the President's son in law, Ivanka's husband was instrument, was influential and instrumental in the Middle east negotiations. Now he's been put into another portfolio. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who has been talking about defending Ukraine's sovereignty and has to need a resolution that is lasting and enduring. He didn't go to Moscow and Steve Witkoff went, who just not long ago was on a leaked audio cassette audio recording coaching Russian officials or appearing to coach Russian officials and, and who has been to Moscow many times and has never been to Ukraine in his official capacity. So when you look at the delegation, that's it. That went to Moscow. Again, from the Ukrainian perspective where I'm sitting right now, it looks like people who are friendly to Putin, who want to get to yes, who want to deliver a win for their boss back home, Donald Trump, so that he can score another diplomatic victory and say that he's solved another conflict. And if you just want to get a win and get to a win quickly, many Ukrainians feel the easiest way is to victimize them, to make, force them to make concessions.
- [27:54]
B
Is there a feeling that Putin will go for it this time?
- [27:58]
C
It's a good question. Probably not. And Zelenskyy was speaking a few hours ago and he was like, well, we'll see how Putin reacts. But Putin has, as you said, been wearing the military uniform that Russia is declaring new gains on the battlefield. He has said we're gonna this territory through negotiations or by military means. So he seems to be dictating the pace of events here right now. So I would be surprised if Putin goes for it the first time around. He said the initial proposal, this 28 point plan, which was leaked, which was basically giving the Russians everything they wanted. Leaked apparently so it would soften the blow so the Ukrainians could get, get their head around this idea that this kind of plan is coming. Then Zelenskyy modified it slightly, or his government did, but his government's also in a pretty weak position. They're going through a corruption scandal. His lead negotiator was changed in the middle of this process. So he's now trying to negotiate backwards from a plan that they were presented with, which was not in their favor. And now the plan, that same plan is going back to Putin. So just structurally, diplomatically, it puts Putin in the strongest position. Imagine the two of us are negotiating some sort of deal or contract and I present you with the terms and then you kind of sort it over and then you bring it back to me for approval. It means that I'M the one in charge. It means that I'm driving the process here. Cuz I set the terms initially and then I say yay or nay at the end of the day. So I think Putin is probably not going to just take the first offer that is put under his nose.
- [29:40]
B
What's your prediction? What do you think's going to happen?
- [29:42]
C
Well, the Ukrainians are resilient. They are not going to accept defeat. They are not going to accept a humiliating defeat. And they may accept a ceasefire, but they believe, and I've been speaking to people, not just government officials, but a broad spectrum of society, including many soldiers, who say that accepting a defeat is worse. It's like leaving a landmine in your territory that eventually you're gonna step on and it's gonna blow up. That it is better to try and get a better deal, try and get more European support, try and bolster your position while you can. But it is a tough place to be because they are very dependent on the United States, they are very dependent on American weapons, they're very dependent on the Trump administration. And it seems like at this moment the Trump administration wants to get to yes quickly. And when you want to get to yes quickly, you got to make compromises. And those compromises might be made here.
- [30:39]
B
Yeah, uncomfortable compromises. Richard, we'll be watching your coverage of the situation on the ground from Ukraine.
- [30:48]
C
Before we go, we did get some questions. We always put out these calls for questions and there were two questions about your sister's wedding. Last time we were on, you told me you had to go, you were off to your sister's elaborate wedding, multi day affair in, in, in Dubai. People want to know, so how, how was it, Was it, was it all she dreamed and expected and hoped for?
- [31:09]
B
She kept saying, all my dreams have come true. I mean it was literally a week long affair with multiple events. There was a, a bridal shower, a welcome dinner, and then we had a traditional Afghan and Turkish ceremony and then we had the, the wedding ceremony as well. It, it was, it was, was elaborate and beautiful and magical and we had 60 guests coming in from Australia and Turkey and across Europe and the United States as well, all sort of arriving into Dubai.
- [31:42]
C
Sounds like a lovely week long party. So next time maybe we'll do a trip there together. Enjoy. But still in Ukraine, a lot more to do. This is a pivotal time. And one Ukrainian told me, guy I've known for a long time, he said, you know what? We face tough winters and this is probably the toughest winter that we've faced since the start of the war.
- [32:02]
B
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. But yeah, we'll be keeping an eye on all things Ukraine over the next few weeks.
- [32:09]
C
And a reminder, please do send us your questions for our special Christmas episode. We don't necessarily have to stay on the news that week. We can talk about anything and we'd love to hear from you and this is your chance. Ask us whatever you'd to like the.
- [32:23]
B
Worldky.Uk Richard, really good to see you and stay safe.
- [32:27]
C
Thanks. Great to see you. Great to talk to you.
- [32:42]
A
It's 2025, a new year and the perfect time to turn your business dreams into reality. Maybe you've been tossing around a great idea but haven't acted yet. Well, Shopify is how you're going to make it happen. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand open for business and make your first sale with thousands of customizable templates. You don't need coding or design skills, just drag, drop and go. Plus, Shopify's social media tools help you connect all your channels and create shoppable posts so you can sell everywhere your customers scroll. Managing your business is easy too. From shipping to taxes to payments, Shopify handles the details on a single dashboard, letting you focus on what really matters. Growing your business established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comdax all lowercase go to shopify.comdax to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.comdax.
- [33:44]
D
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B
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D
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