← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
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- [00:00]
Richard
Foreign. The last few weeks there's been a big buildup of United States forces in the Caribbean.
- [00:15]
Donald Trump
The president of Colombia is in drug war.
- [00:24]
Richard
Dahmet Al Shara was not all that long ago the leader of the Nusra Front, the Syrian branch of the terror network Al Qaeda. He was in the eyes of America, a terrorist. That same man finds himself here in.
- [00:39]
Yalda
The Oval Office.
- [00:46]
Donald Trump
And people said he's had a rough past. We've all had rough pasts. But he has had a rough past. And I think frankly, if you didn't have a rough past, you wouldn't have a chance. We have to make Syria work. Syria is a big part of the Middle east and I will tell you, I think it is working and really well.
- [01:16]
Yalda
Hello and welcome to the World podcast. I'm Yalda and I'm in London.
- [01:21]
Richard
And me, Richard, and I'm in Columbia, Latin America this time.
- [01:26]
Yalda
Yeah, new place, Richard, because of course, for the last couple of years both of us have been traveling back and forth to Israel, covering the, the war there and of course to Ukraine. So I really can't wait to hear about your travels in Colombia. And it's great to have you back on the podcast. We haven't been speaking these last few weeks.
- [01:47]
Richard
We have not. It has been terrible. I've been missing you. I hope that you, you felt the same. But as you mentioned, it's go and check out other parts of the world and do some other reporting because for the last two years or so it's really just been ping ponging back and forth between Israel and Gaza coverage and Ukraine, and for obvious reasons, those consumed a lot of our time. But to come here right now in Colombia also focusing on what's going on in Venezuela, a situation that is absolutely heating up, I think is going to heat up even more. We're going to get into that.
- [02:26]
Yalda
Absolutely. And we're also going to cover that historic meeting between the interim president of Syria, if that's what I should call him, Ahmad Al Sharar, and Donald Trump, who, you know, Ahmed Al Sharar, traveled to the White House. It was quite a historic, monumental moment. So we'll be getting into that. And Richard, you and I were in Syria last year in December, when the Assad regime fell and we saw the rise of Ahmed Al Shira. So this is qu a moment.
- [02:58]
Richard
It's an extraordinary moment. Now he's in the White House. Did you see that video of him playing basketball with American generals? Just from Al Qaeda leader feared in Syria, a bounty on his head to now meeting with The President of the United States and talking about new relations, sanctions lifted against him. Just an extraordinary transformation and an extraordinary individual. Like him or hate him, he is certainly someone who will go down in the history books and has transformed himself in an amazing way. I mean, he was held in an American prison for years, and now he's in the White House. Just astonishing. So we'll talk about that. And don't forget to follow us on Spotify, Apple, you can Watch us on YouTube, just search for the World with Richard and Yalda. Foreign.
- [04:06]
Yalda
So, Richard, as we were saying, you're currently in Colombia. I want to hear everything. We haven't spoken these last few weeks. And, you know, the fact is, Donald Trump's foreign policy, you know, he's reshaping entire regions. He's looking at the situation in the Middle east, but he's also zoomed in on places like Colombia and Venezuela. Tell me what you're doing there and what's been going on.
- [04:32]
Richard
Okay, so as we've been noticing, or there's been about 20 different kinetic strikes that the US military has been carrying out on these alleged narco boats. So these are boats that are, or in one case, an improvised submarine leaving from this region and heading toward the United States, allegedly carrying drugs. So we're here because of that, because of these intensified kinetic strikes. But more importantly, because there's an enormous amount of military power in this region. 10,000 troops have already been deployed. Warships are in the area, at least one American submarine. Fighter jets, drones, and more troops are on the way. So a huge amount of firepower coming to the region where I am right now, which raises the question, why? What's going on? Is the US Going to do a war to overthrow Maduro? And Maduro is the main target? But not only Maduro, Maduro has an ally here in Colombia, the president of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, who's a former rebel, a former member of the far left, a guerrilla fighter in the sort of 1970s style. So he's been an enemy of Trump. Trump calls him a lunatic. Trump calls him a narco terrorist. And Trump is now saying that Maduro, president of Venezuela, the authoritarian dictator, that his days are numbered. So that's why I'm here. Is regime change coming in Latin America, or are we just going to see more of these drone strikes on alleged fast boats and submarines carrying drugs? And the impression that I'm getting, and the people that I'm speaking to, very serious people, believe that there is going to be some sort of military action soon.
- [06:33]
Yalda
Break this down for US a little bit, Richard, because there was Hugo Chavez leading Venezuela before Nicolas Maduro took over in, I believe, 2013. Nicolas Maduro, like Hugo Chavez before him, was and is an authoritarian dictator on the left. And, you know, we often, you and I have spoken about the fact that Donald Trump has great admiration for some of these strong men, authoritarian leaders. You know, whether it's Xi Jinping or Recep Tayyip Erdogan or Vladimir Putin, he shows this sort of admiration for the strongman. Yet he doesn't have that level of admiration for Nicolas Maduro, frankly, because he's on the right, wrong side of, he's on the left side of, of politics. And he, he sort of targeted him during Trump 1.0. And now we're seeing that same playbook of him going after the Venezuelan leader, going after Venezuela yet again. Just break it down for us. You know, other than the drugs, you know, other than the concern about things like fentanyl pouring into the United States, the immigration issues that the United States is facing, what are the main concerns for Donald Trump? It appear that he is waging a war against Venezuela and Venezuela's allies, countries like Colombia.
- [07:58]
Richard
Okay, so let's go back to the, the 1980s, which was the worst period here. Everyone probably remembers Pablo Escobar. And Pablo Escobar was the world's most powerful drug trader, dominated the cocaine trade, really established the cocaine trade as a major industry, as a major political force. He operated openly, he ran this country. And it got incredibly dangerous. The government was pushed aside. He could do whatever he want. He would attack. He blew up aircraft, he attacked government buildings, he attacked courts, he attacked judges. He did whatever he wanted. And that was a very dark period in Colombia in the 80s and 90s. And that coincided with a similar kind of movement across the border in Venezuela. So Venezuela had the rise, as you mentioned, of Hugo Chavez, who was another classic far left leader who wanted worldwide revolution, believed in this sort of Marxist ideology and thought that the Americans, the Yankees and their capitalism were the, were the worst thing that ever befell the region. And he wanted the Yankees out. And he wanted a new system by the workers, for the workers, for the people, for the farmers, for the campesinos, and got some support in Latin America. And then when Chavez died, he passed on the system to Nicolas Maduro. And Nicolas Maduro was a bus driver, no political experience, no particular political savvy, if you will, but took on the same mantle of power, same ideology, and has kept the system going under the Hugo Chavez banner and has run the country into the ground. It's become incredibly corrupt, it's become dangerous. It is a lawless state. Most countries don't recognize Maduro as a legitimate leader. They believe that he stole the so Nicolas Maduro and a few allies, including Gustavo Petro, the president of here, the former rebel, let's just say similar ideology. They're at least ideological partners. And according to President Trump and others, they're much more than ideological partners. President Trump and his administration has said that these are both narco terrorists, that Gustavo Petro, President of Colombia is quote, a lunatic, that he does nothing to stop the drug trade and that the US is now going to change that situation. Why now? People I've been speaking to believe that this is part of President Trump's larger agenda which we've talked about in this show of sphere of influence. And he wants this region to be the American region and that this is his home background or the United States home turf. And if you can't control your own turf, what kind of world power are you? It's against the narcos who still produce an enormous amount of cocaine and do tremendous damage to the rainforest and do tremendous damage to the farmers, to the consumers who are consuming this dangerous product. And it has to do with China, believe it or not, because China has become the main trading partner for this region. About 20 years ago, 90% of trade in Latin America was with the United States. The US was the main dominant power here. Now most countries main trading partner is China in the US's neighborhood. So you've got far left leaders, narco trade, spreading Chinese influence, and President Trump who wants this region to be America's region. I think that's the larger context that you can see this in. President Trump has been accused of being a flip flopper, that he always folds, he always gives in and he threatens these tariffs or he threatens these actions and then he backs away. Now all these warships are here, all this military power is here. A lot, 10,000 plus troops, more on their way if he pulls them back now and Maduro is still in power and nothing has changed and the President of Colombia keep insulting him, it would have an enormous cost for Trump. It would be embarrassing. So that's why I think people here believe that once you put all these guns on the table, somebody's getting shot.
- [12:57]
Yalda
So Richard, I think you've done a great job sort of breaking this down for us and helping me understand the situation on the ground that this is, you know, not just about the strikes on these boats. It's not just about the buildup of troops. This is about a wider sphere of influence that the United States wants to have on its own backyard. So Donald Trump is basically sending a signal to Nicolas Maduro, you know, sort your house out or I'm going to remove you from power. And also sending a very direct signal and warning to China. This is my backyard. You know, stop messing, messing around here. And I am not afraid to take action. But what you have just said, said and outlined there is, you know, is there a concern that even though Donald Trump is building up these troops, making these sorts of warnings and threats, that they are perhaps trying to call his bluff? Because at one point, didn't Nicolas Maduro say, listen, I wanna work this out with you, and Donald Trump, basically, again, if I. If I were to swear on this podcast, basically said, you know, you know, y', all, he basically, I think we.
- [14:07]
Richard
Still have, like an X rating for you because of you.
- [14:09]
Yalda
But are they likely to call Donald Trump's bluff here and say, okay, look, we're scared, we're in hiding, but, you know, the leader of Colombia is saying, you know, I'm gonna take you on, essentially.
- [14:20]
Richard
So President Trump has openly said that Maduro's days are numbered and he's doing all of these strikes against the boats. Now the Pentagon is talking about it. They're putting out the videos, they're bragging about it. They're deploying all of these conventional troops and special forces and drones and aircraft, and they're openly talking about getting rid of Maduro, saying that his days are numbered. And that message has gotten to the Venezuelans. Maduro is nervous, clearly, and did say, oh, yeah, well, maybe we can work a deal. Because Venezuela not just has vast amounts of oil, it also has rare earth minerals. And a former Colombian official senior and I were talking at length, and I've also spoken to Western diplomats here, but speaking to people on the ground, I've had a lot of conversations over the last week or so, believe that the goal of these overt strikes and this overt military buildup, and President Trump even saying that he's authorized covert actions in Venezuela is to convince Maduro's inner circle to dump him.
- [15:35]
Yalda
Before we focus on the situation with Syria and talk a little bit more about Ahmed Al Sharon, the historic meeting at the White House, you know, just to finally just sort of grasp the situation.
- [15:46]
Richard
No, no, by all means. It's been fascinating. Like I said, it's been fascinating to be here. It's an interesting time and stuff's coming. Most people believe that there's going to be airstrikes on the narco labs, like pretty soon.
- [15:58]
Yalda
That's what I want to know. The mood on the street, the feeling of, you know, are we going to start seeing regime changes in these places? You know, Nicolas Maduro has been accused of all sorts of human rights abuses. So, you know, there won't be any tears for Nicolas Maduro and the way that he has run Venezuela, frankly, into the ground, despite its, you know, the natural resources it has, despite the fact that it's a petro state, people are living, you know, in dire situations and, you know, below the poverty line.
- [16:32]
Richard
The mood on the street is that this is not just bluster. People don't think that it would, that he's just doing this for show. The belief is that before the end of the year, which is, you know, we'll be here soon, that there will probably be some sort of kinetic strikes, land strikes in Venezuela, not necessarily Caracas, not an American invasion, but to send an even stronger message to the people around Maduro, if they haven't gotten the message already, that if they get rid of him, then there can be a new political process, that there could be a transitionary phase, that maybe the generals get to keep their power or keep some of their stuff, their houses and their money, and that you could have a transitionary government for a year or two and then new elections, but that there would be a regime change and that that the hope is, would have a domino effect. So the belief among many in the Trump administration, particularly Rubio, the secretary of state, and he's acting national security advisor, that if you can get rid of Maduro, that it will have a chain reaction and get rid of change politics across this region, get rid of these extreme left who in some cases made these alliances with the, with the narcos and change the politics and spread more American influence in the region, push China out, push the Cuban intelligence out and transform politics here. Easier said than done.
- [18:13]
Yalda
Yeah, I was just going to say.
- [18:15]
Richard
That'S the concept anyway.
- [18:17]
Yalda
Well, well, you know, we know from, from other places and other attempts at regime change. How, how. Well, it's gone. So, you know, I guess it's more the Trump administration is probably looking at regime destruction and then hoping that somehow they will then be able to figure out regime change once they've completely decapitated and weakened the leadership of Nicolas Maduro. But we're going to go to a break, Richard, and when we come back, let's discuss the regime change. Place almost 12 months ago in Syria, the toppling of Bashar Al Assad. And talk about the new president of Syria, Ahmed Al Sharah, a former jihadi fighter who has now found himself in the Oval Office. So, Richard, we're talking about your trip, your to Colombia. You're currently in the region looking at, you know, what the US Is, is doing there at the moment. And we talked a lot about regime change, regime destruction. You and I were both in Syria at the end of 2024 when we saw the collapse of the Assad regime. He fled to Moscow. And enter Ahmed Al Sharar, the rebel fighter, the jihadi who swiftly moved from Idlib down south towards the the capital, Damascus, and took over Syria very, very quickly, much to, frankly, the world's surprise, to his own surprise. And when we look at his resume, my God, is it colorful. You know, he went from being a bomb maker in Iraq to, you know, frankly, a bomb maker for Al Qaeda, spending years in American prisons held by American forces. He has American blood on his hands, then going to Syria and forming the affiliate to Al Qaeda, the Al Nusra Front, and then, you know, being this rebel fighter that had to hold the area of Idlib with his rebel fighters. And I was speaking to a former US ambassador yesterday who said, you know, in 2018, we basically sent a very clear message to the Russians. Don't target this guy and his rebel fighters because we need him. He will be useful to us at some point. Now, he said Ambassador Jeffries was his name. He said, you know, we didn't think that he would end up becoming the president of Syria, but that's frank, frankly, what happened. And then these extraordinary scenes when he arrived in New York at the General assembly in May, where he spoke at the UN General assembly, he sat down with the US Commander who had arrested him, General David Petraeus, and then to find him the first Syrian leader since Syria became independent from France in 1946 to enter the White House. Absolutely astonishing and remarkable journey for him and for Syria.
- [21:48]
Richard
So, yes, where do you even start with someone who's had such a colorful career being welcomed by Trump? And Trump says, oh, he's a good guy. He's a strong guy. He's a tough guy. I mean, he is a. He is a tough guy. There's no, I don't think anyone would doubt that.
- [22:01]
Yalda
Would doubt that. In fact, when Donald Trump described him as a tough, attractive guy, he did an interview with, I believe, 60 Minutes in the United States, and he said, mean, do you have any doubt that I'm an attractive, tough guy? So he sort of, you know, thought it was quite humorous what Donald Trump was saying. But, Richard, let's have a listen to what Donald Trump had to say when he met with Ahmed Al Shara, because it's not often that, you know, first of all, Donald Trump has a meeting with a world leader in the Oval Office where it's not open to the press, and he takes the back door and then. But it's unusual to have a former jihadi, you know, with a $10 million bounty on his head, coming to visit you at the White House. Let's have a listen to what Trump had to say.
- [22:49]
Donald Trump
He's a very strong leader. He comes from a very tough place and he's a tough guy. I liked him. I get along with him. The president, the new president of Syria. And we'll do everything we can to make Syria successful because that's part of the Middle East. We have peace now in the Middle East. First time that anyone can remember that ever happening.
- [23:12]
Yalda
So Donald Trump speaking there, you know, they're working to lift all those sanctions from Syria to try and make it economically more prosperous. And that is one of the motivations of Ahmed Al Sharad. They've lifted the $10 million bounty from his head. But, you know, Richard, without rehashing everything.
- [23:32]
Richard
That Maduro now has a $50 million.
- [23:35]
Yalda
Yeah, well, there you go. It's, you know, multiplied for Maduro, but without sort of rehashing everything that's happened over the course of the last 12 months. And what a remarkable journey it's been for Ahmed Al Sharar. The big question now is going to be he is able to adapt. He is like a chameleon. But is he a, you know, refreshingly pragmatic Islamist, or is he an incredibly untrustworthy man? Syria is a mixing pot, a society that is a melting pot of different sort of sectarian groups, religious groups. They don't necessarily want a former dictator to flee. You know, the Assad regime had a grip on this nation for decades, from Bashar Al Assad's father to himself. And then the 13 year civil war that we saw that, you know, frankly tore this nation apart. Millions were left displaced, almost half a million people dead. And it culminated in Bashar Al Assad fleeing the country. Ahmed Al Sharar now has an impossible task of uniting this nation. We're seeing ongoing attacks on the Druze community, ongoing attacks on the Christian community, ongoing attacks on the Alawite community. The Kurds feel unsafe. It's extraordinary that Ahmed Al Sharar has been, you know, now told, come into the coalition and the war against ISIS that we have, that the United States leads. But he has an impossible task to try and unite a fractured nation, to try and bring together the Syrian people, to make it not just economically viable, but to be able to bring all these communities together. So frankly, we don't see another civil war erupting in Syria.
- [25:33]
Richard
Damascus is a, is a, is a beautiful, wonderful city, ancient city. It's a multi religious society with different religious and ethnic groups. The, the Israelis are still occupying a part of the country. They are intervening to defend the Druze community and these minorities, the Christians. There's a tiny Jewish community, although he's been working with them, the Christians and the Alawites primarily. And the Druze are very nervous. They're very nervous that this Islamist strong man is going to come in and he's just going to be a new dictator. And he's going to be a new dictator with a heavy handed Islamic flavor. So Bashar Al Assad was a dictator, but he was really just a kleptocrat. He was just a thief. He didn't have an ideological bend. The bent in Syria under, or the mentality under Syria under Bashar al Assad was, he is king, his family is the royal dynasty. Don't mess with the Assads. But I would say there was no ideological overtone other than we are in charge. Everyone else stay in line or you're going to be thrown in one of the worst gulags in the prison. This guy is, you know, he is ideological, he's ideologically flexible, but people don't know him. And I think that is what a lot of the fear is. You know, when we were in Damascus and talking to people, people, they were happy that the Syrian civil war was over because it was so horrendous. But then they're like, well, who is, who is this guy? Is he going to be, is this just, is he a wolf in sheep's clothing? Is he going to impose later on some sort of strict Islamic Sharia law? Is he going to repress women? Is he going, what, what is he going to do? But so far the steps have been relatively encouraging. And the United States, as you mentioned, is primarily interested in him because they want him to help fight isis. I've spent time with his forces in Syria. I spent about, I don't know, it was a week, maybe two weeks with them running around. No, I think it was about a week actually. And was with his forces the entire time. They're disciplined, they're hard working. When they would come, he or one of the commanders would call them over, they would run, they would generally not smokers, pretty healthy, focused and nobody who you would want to fight in a man to man fight, Alaska to AK you wouldn't want to fight against these guys. So I think the US Is trying to say, okay, we'll bring him back in the fold. Maybe that'll encourage him to be more moderate and he can be in a, an incredibly powerful force to fight against ISIS and the really radical fringe, the kind of people who blow up theaters in France or inspire people to pick up swords and go on killing sprees.
- [28:46]
Yalda
In the UK And Richard, I mean, we saw he was quite fit shooting those hoops with the head of CENTCOM on that basketball court. And Donald Trump said he's had a rough past. So we'll have to wait and see, you know, how it pans out for Ahmed Al Sharar. He does have an uphill battle, but he also has a lot of people who are rallying behind him in the United States, in the West, Syrian diaspora who want this to work. So, you know, again, we'll have to wait and see whether he's going to be able to adapt and be pragmatic or whether, you know, as you say, the concern that so many have that he is a sheep, a wolf in sheep's clothing. We always do the predictions. Richard, before I let you and you know, get back to your work in, in Colombia, what are you watching? I guess you're looking at the situation in the region right now where you are.
- [29:47]
Richard
Well, yeah, well, right now I'm focused on Latin America. So let's, let's, I'll do it here. I would say that there'll be some military strikes against narcotics labs facilities inside Venezuela on the ground before the end of the year. And I think there'll be increased pressure on the inner circle around Maduro to hand him over. And I think, I don't know if they're going to bend to that pressure or they'll double down. But I think there will be a more intense campaign to, to let the Venezuelans do regime change themselves with this offer of carrots and sticks. So I would say kinetic strikes on the ground in Venezuela relatively soon, which we haven't seen yet. It's so far just been the boats.
- [30:44]
Yalda
Richard, for me, I guess we've been seeing the devastation, the horror show that has unfolded in Sudan over the course of the last couple of weeks. I'm looking at the situation in South Sudan because of course, you know, that is one of the youngest countries on the planet. And there are rival factions right now at each other's throats yet again. And potentially we could see another civil war erupt there. So while the focus has been, frankly, not a huge amount of focus on the humanitarian situation and the devastating crisis that has gripped Sudan for the last few years, I think the situation in the south could erupt. So I'm monitoring the situation there.
- [31:26]
Richard
There. Well, before we go, people should also know Colombia. It's an extraordinarily beautiful country.
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Yalda
Oh, wow. I've never been so I. It's amazing.
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Richard
You go up in the mountains. I mean, we're in the Andes here, but there's also coast. It has the second. I think it's the second most biodiverse country on the planet with such, you know, deep, deep. When you think of jungle. This is jungle.
- [31:51]
Yalda
Wow.
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Richard
We're. I'm in Bogota now, but I've been. I was up, up on the Caribbean coast talking to fisherme. By the way, the fishermen are terrified now to go out to sea because they're worried if they go too far from the shore, they're gonna get droned. But just, you know, getting the opportunity to fly around and drive around this country, if you walk, I don't know, two, three miles just into the. Into the bush, you may never find your way out again.
- [32:19]
Yalda
Wow.
- [32:19]
Richard
It's dense, it's dark, it's original growth. So it's quite an extraordinary place to visit. But unfortunately, crime is getting worse right now. Things are heading, I would say, for many, many people would say heading in the wrong direction over the last year or so. But if they could get a better government and get rid of the narcos or at least control the situation more and not have pockets that are ungoverned spaces run by drug lords who surround their fields with landmines. So if you can contain that or clean that up, this region could have a tremendous future.
- [33:06]
Yalda
Amazing. Well, I'm looking forward to all of your reports and catching up on what you find next week as well. Really good to talk to you, Richard, and thank you to our listeners for listening this week.
- [33:18]
Richard
Thank you and. And of course, please send us your questions. And the email remains the same. The worldatsky.uk hey, it's Sophie and Will from Sky News.
- [33:48]
Yalda
Too many headlines, too little time.
- [33:51]
Richard
We get it. And that's why we're bringing you cheat sheet.
- [33:54]
Yalda
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- [33:56]
Richard
All the big stories from politics to pop culture, minus the noise, no doom.
- [34:00]
Yalda
Scrolling, no spin, just the stories that matter from two people who live and breathe the News Cheat Sheet with Bridge and Frost from Scott Guy News.
- [34:09]
Richard
Follow Cheat Sheet wherever you get your podcasts.