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The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Inside Iran: What's it like in Tehran right now?
00:27:33
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- [00:03]
A
Sky News, the full story first. Hi, guys, it's Yalda. We're doing a extra special episode of the world podcast because some of you may know, if you've watched our coverage, that our international affairs editor, Dominic Waghorn and the team are currently in Tehran. It was an arduous, long journey, but they managed to make it in. There are only a handful of journalists, international journalists, allowed into the country and they've been giving us a glimpse of life for Iranians under bombardment. They've been speaking to officials and regular citizens of Iran. They've been going to hospitals and bombed out buildings. We managed to get a very small window to speak to them because, of course there's an Internet blackout across the country too. So connectivity and operating in the country is so difficult right now. We spoke to them on Wednesday afternoon and it was an extraordinary conversation about what life is currently like in Tehran. So please do stick with us. Although the connection was weak at times, it was just fascinating to hear how they're currently viewing things. They don't have much access to information from the outside world, but they are speaking to a lot of people on the ground. So this is a really special episode, I think. And thanks so much for listening. Dom, Zane, really good to see you both. I'm aware that because of connectivity issues, you may cut out at any moment, so I'm just going to get straight into it. How are you both?
- [01:56]
B
We're pretty good. It's not been easy, but we're doing well. And it's not been easy getting here or operating here, but on the whole, I think it's going well.
- [02:10]
C
Yeah, it's been very, very difficult, very trying to get to Iran. But we're glad we're here. There's a lot going on and we're very happy to be hearing from you, Yalda.
- [02:19]
A
And just talk me through then what you've witnessed so far.
- [02:22]
B
What we've witnessed today, Yalda, was a funeral, a combined funeral of Ali Larajani, the senior security official who was killed in an Israeli airstrike a couple of nights ago, along with a number of other senior officials. And he was honored as well as much of the crew of the Iranian naval ship that was torpedoed at the beginning of the war. So this was a massive show of grief, but also defiance in the heart of Iran. Huge lorries with the caskets of all of those dead on board and thousands of people came out to honor the dead, even though the square was hit yesterday by an airstrike. And this is, this is a sort of strange incongruity here that while the city is being bombarded around the clock, really we're here regular sustained bombardments. People are going through their normal lives, carrying on as normal. But also today determined those supporters of the government to come out in force and show that they were grieving the senior officials and the crew of this ship, but also to show that they were able still to come out in great numbers in I think, what could be seen as a show of defiance by the government.
- [03:35]
C
Yeah, it was. It's interesting because since we got here, Yalda, we've been seeing a lot of video, a lot of sort of live feeds on, on Iranian state TV were pretty kind of cut off from, from anything other than the internal sort of Internet. But also, you know, news organ news items or images and pictures that are coming really anywhere other than from inside Iran. And loads of those, those sort of news feeds have shown pretty big protests happening at night in support of the government. But we haven't had or haven't yet had the opportunity to see those numbers on the street until today. And they were huge numbers. I mean, I. Thousands upon thousands really filling central Tehran. Interesting, because yesterday the numbers were far less given that there was an incident where a security vehicle was targeted by, we think, a drone. But today I think, you know, thousands sort of packing those streets and lining the streets in Revolution Square in Tehran.
- [04:33]
A
Yeah. And of course we're aware of the ongoing bombardment, but you know, just being there in Tehran just paint a picture for us, you know, what it's like. Are people trying to get on with daily life despite being in this situation?
- [04:50]
B
Well, I think it's fair to say it's pretty tense, it's subdued, A lot of people have left the city. But as often you find in war, as you know, Yalda is this is kind of incongruity of when you're away from the fighting. In areas where there's not fighting going on, people try and carry on their lives. We went to a market and as we entered the market there was a sound of aircraft, anti aircraft fire going off close to us. There was actually a bombardment quite close by. A police station was attacked, we found out later, but actually no one seemed to change. No one seemed to even notice it. They just carried on as normal. So just a few, a couple of two or three weeks into this war, people are now getting inured, I guess to the sort of regular bombardment that they're living through and people are out shopping for Nowruz. That's the Persian New Year at the end of the week, and we're trying to just carry on with their lives. I mean, there's a sense of a new era in a sense here, with massive sort of placards and banners wherever you look showing the new supreme leader, Moshtab Al Khamenei, the son of the assassinated former leader. It's not the sort of change regime that the Israelis and the Americans want, but I think it's anotherit's a sense of the government here trying to project continuity, trying to look as though they're determined to outlast the enemy, even as Israelis and Americans, particularly the Israelis, try and assassinate one leader after another. As each leader is replaced, he is then targeted as well. And the government does seem to be fairly resilient. It's built into it, this resilience, so that one person succeeds another one and that line of succession is pretty clearly laid out. So while there's that resilience, I think there is a determination amongst our enemies, of course, to try and change the regime. I think it's fair to say we could both say that at the moment the government seemed firmly in control and those kind of protests we saw earlier in the year have not re emerged. People are, most people are staying at home. And I think the government feels fairly confident it still has a grip on power here.
- [06:51]
C
Yeah, I mean, Yalda Tehran is a massive city, this massive, sprawling kind of metropolis. And when we've been here before, and I was here on my own, you know, to kind of for meetings with officials about a month ago now, and generally speaking, the traffic is one way of knowing how things have changed inside the city. Because any journey, regardless of where you're going, seemed to have taken probably an hour, if not longer on the previous visit that we've had reporting here. And now I think it's pretty visible. The traffic is coming back over the last couple of days, but it's definitely much less congested and much less busy than it has been on previous occasions. And this is in the lead up to obviously the Persian New Year Nowruz, as Dominic says, where you'd expect, you know, traffic jams and shops full and markets full of people buying goods and presents before the Persian New Year. So that's definitely one thing that I've noticed. Another thing that I noticed was, and we'll talk about this in a moment, but obviously with the, the Internet cut out, we've had to find different ways, very complex, very sort of difficult ways of trying to get connected to the outside world. And yesterday we were At a media agency where we were managing to send some of our reports and some of our pictures to back to London. And there was quite a lot of, of activity in the skies, lots of anti aircraft fire, lots of sort of thuds and booms. And we were going into an elevator to, to leave the building. Not, not to leave because of what was happening, but just because we'd finished our work and we wanted to go back to our, to our hotel. And there was a woman who was staying in the apartment block who came in and her hands were trembling, sort of shaking because obviously all of this activity was going on. And I think sometimes in a city this size, when you're so locked into what you're doing and the reporting that we're doing, you forget that actually. And ordinary people is really visible here in the hotel. We've got people very kindly, you know, still working in the kitchen, still helping us in the reception and every time they hear these thuds and booms and they see these kinds of blasts in the skyline, they immediately run to the window, maybe less nervous than they were in the beginning of the conflict. But it's still having a huge effect and having a massive toll on ordinary people, no doubt.
- [09:11]
A
Yeah. And we've been watching your reports from inside the country and of course we've been hear about senior officials who have been killed. You guys interviewed a senior official in the last couple of days. Just talk us through what came out of that.
- [09:28]
B
Yeah, well, it's clearly the Israelis strategy helped by the Americans to try and change the regime by killing as many senior officials as possible. They don't seem to be going after diplomats, not yet at least. So we were able to interview the deputy Foreign minister, fairly confident that it wasn't going to be a dangerous proposition. And Dr. Khatib Sade gave us an interesting interview and he was really projecting this message of defiance that we're hearing from the government. And what he said, I think that what made the headlines was he said, as I asked about the possibility of boots on the ground, which I think is sort of gathering momentum as a, as a possibility. He said that the Americans should be, they should remember and read the history of Vietnam and warn that it could, they could face another quagmire.
- [10:11]
D
I say that, you know, I hope that, you know, wisdom prevail and you know, diplomacy prevails on the other side. They understand that those who drag them into this, you know, war can drag them into also a quack mayor for
- [10:24]
B
them, which I know Donald Trump has been asked about and he says he's not worried about it, so that that was a clear warning to the Americans. The other point he made was that this is not the time for diplomacy in the minds of the Iranian. And what they seem to be saying is that they don't want a ceasefire. What they want is an end to this kind of cycle which they see of relative calm, then diplomacy, and then the diplomacy being sabotaged by the Americans for a second time. Now, of course, very similar things happened in July that led to the 12 Day War. They believe that progress was being made in Geneva and a number of other sources within the British government, it seems, also seem to believe that there was progress being made and that the Americans and the Israelis were using diplomacy as a cover for preparing for the attack. So he was saying, we just can't have a repeat of that. We've heard similar things from his boss, Saad Abbas Aragchi, the. The foreign minister himself. So, you know, a note of defiance from the deputy foreign minister, but also really no time yet, it seems, for diplomacy, which is going to disappoint people, of course, who want to have a negotiated end to this.
- [11:35]
C
Yeah, I think. I think you hear it amongst officials that we've spoken to, Yalda, but also kind of ordinary people, which is. There is this, this air of defiance that Dom talks about, you know, Iranians, it's quite, you know, sort of etched in recent memory the war with Iraq, which was this hugely destructive and devastating conflict that lasted nearly a decade in the 80s. So they talk about, you know, from, from an official perspective that Iran is prepared and able and willing to kind of persevere and continue in this conflict. It's something that they often, they often raise when you, when you ask them, how much longer can this go? Because, you know, they are being hit very hard and they've lost so many senior leaders, but they always mention this, this kind of, you know, ability to be resilient and be able to withstand what the Americans in the Israelis are throwing at them. What is very difficult to know really is, is behind the scenes, you know, amongst the security forces and various intelligence agencies and senior, senior leadership, how concerned and how perturbed they are by this kind of constant, I think, string of assassinations that are taking out their senior leadership and whether actually there may be a different perspective behind the scenes, but certainly from the people that we've spoken to, they. They seem to be, I think, quite shocked by, by the war that was launched upon them, but. But also prepared and willing to continue if needs be.
- [12:54]
A
Yeah, it's so rare to also get access to Iran, especially in this moment. You will your, you know, handful of journalists who are there at the moment just talk us through what it's been like operating there. We talked a little bit about the connectivity issues, having no Internet, but just also accessing ordinary people. Like we said, you know, we saw you there in the markets and things like that. But are you able to freely talk to people as well?
- [13:22]
B
Yeah, we're able to talk to people we asked to talk to and go to the places we've asked to go to. On the whole, we're working with a translator of our choice and with the news agency we're working with here. And, you know, it's at a time of war, it's difficult. Not everybody wants to talk. Some people, I think most people don't want to go on camera. They're saying more off camera than they're saying on camera. The reformist politicians who have been most of them under house arrest for years now, are all not prepared to talk and actually haven't spoken in public for four years now. Any organizers of those protests that we saw weeks ago obviously are not in evidence either. But when you go to the places you want to go to, we've asked to go to blasts sites, hospitals, we're trying to talk to the ordinary Iranians who've been affected most of all by these airstrikes. We're able to talk to anybody we want to and get a pretty clear picture of the impact of what is being done to their neighborhoods. I think the point to make is that, you know, the Israeli Americans say they're using precision targeted strikes, but they are attacking cities. And if you use 2,000 pound bombs in residential areas, whatever you're targeting, you're going to cause a lot of collateral damage in the area around it. And there's no doubt civilians are being badly hurt, many of them being badly injured and some of them being killed as well. And heartbreaking stories we found in, in hospitals here. And people aren't really being, they're not being backward about coming forward, talking about what's happening to them.
- [14:55]
C
I think it'd be fair to say that you've had quite a few conversations off camera with people maybe expressing their views. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's completely different to what they're saying on camera. But there is, in these moments of heightened tension and sensitivity, people are understandably reluctant to kind of spill, spill everything on camera, especially to Western journalists. But we have been able to speak to people generally, yeah, and what I
- [15:16]
B
think the sort of, the other message we're hearing most of all is people saying whenever this war is over, they want things to change. And I think, you know, that is kind of a coded way of saying that they want to see a change in the way the country is run. And people are pretty reticent about saying anything more than that. You know, we saw today thousands of people who are very happy with the government and very defiant and want to carry on fighting. And we saw earlier in the year a lot of people who aren't happy with the government, aren't happy with the economy and the situation they're, they're living through. So there is an appetite, change for change, clearly, from what people are saying, but they're not prepared to say so much on camera.
- [15:52]
C
Yalda, can I just say, because we're so cut off here and it's very, very difficult to get, get much information from the outside. How is how from where you are. I know we were in the Gulf recently together. How, what's your perception of what is happening in Iran and the kind of conflict more widely? Because you've got a bit more perspective than we do right now.
- [16:11]
A
You know, it's quite extraordinary, actually. The, the perception here is, it's very similar to what it was about a week ago, Zane, that it does feel like President Trump now is lashing out at allies, at regional partners. You know, there's, there's this kind of sense that it started to spiral out of control and not in the control of the United States. We are hearing that tactically, the US And Israel especially are, you know, hitting the targets that they say they are. But strategically, how does this end is a big question that's now many people are talking about, you know, where does this go? How does this end? Are they going to be able to actually break the sort of system in Iran? And from where we're sitting right now, it does feel like all of the analysis is it's frankly not going well for the United States and Israel as far as tactically, you know, they're hitting the targets, they're assassinating the sort of Iranian leadership that we're hearing even today when we heard more about the assassinations. But in terms of what the actual plan is, you know, and the, the fact that we're now talking about Marines being sent to the Cog island, for example, or, you know, to try and take back the Strait of Hormuz, a lot of people watching closely are saying, well, hang on a second. Victory three weeks ago looked like any Sort of thing from regime change to targeting nuclear sites to taking out missiles and missile launchers. Now victory looks like taking back the Strait of Hormuz, which is kind of extraordinary that we're now in this place where if those ships can freely operate within the Strait, then suddenly that's victory does not look like what we were told would be victory three weeks ago. So the big question now is, what happens to these thousands of Marines who are there? You know, do they station themselves in the Kharg Island? Do they then expose themselves 17 miles from the Iranian coast to lethal drones and missiles? And how much more does that then expose American troops? So there is big concern about energy infrastructure in the Gulf continuing to be hit, and also what it means then if boots are actually on the ground. That is the big conversation that I think many are having in Western capitals. And from where we're sitting, it sounds
- [18:49]
B
as though, because I think when we left, the impression we had was from a number of things that Trump had said that he wanted an off ramp, he wanted to get out. It was a question of working out how to do so. It sounds like it's a bit more mixed now. And as Zane said, it's very hard for us to get any reading at all here because we have very sporadic contact with the outside world. But it sounds like, from what you're saying, that maybe he's considering digging in his heels and staying more involved. It's kind of, you know, get more involved or quit. From where I'm sitting, you know, the options for America get more. Much more problematic the more they're involved. But you're sounds like, from what you're saying, the noises from Washington are that they may last the course and keep on digging in with this.
- [19:30]
A
Yeah, I mean, we're now hearing President Trump has said, oh, we could be there for six more weeks. So, you know, it keeps getting extended. And the rhetoric we're hearing from the Oval Office is that, you know, they've sort of decapitated the leadership, and yet the regime doesn't seem to feel like, from where we're sitting, weakened and certainly doesn't sound like, when you talk about, you know, the thousands of people coming out onto the streets, that that's what it feels like from your perspective and where you are.
- [20:04]
C
Yeah, I think it's interesting for a couple of things. First of all, in terms of the political side of it, Yalda, when we were in the Gulf, I think some officials were telling us that neither side could be seen to be losing, but kind of neither side could have a definitive win in order to find an exit to this conflict. And it feels like that's what, from what you're telling us with President Trump and the US but also what we're hearing here is that the Iranians don't want, as Dom said earlier, a kind of part time ceasefire only for things to escalate three or four months down the line. They want to have a comprehensive end to the cycle. And from what you're saying, Donald Trump wants to have some kind of comprehensive victory of some sort. So that seems pretty difficult to kind of square off and see how we move on from that. But also in, in Tehran, even though it is definitely uneasy and there's a lot of anxiety, it definitely feels like it's a city that's still very much under control for now, I don't know. And we can't really tell you what the rest of the country is like, but that's where we're at now, I think.
- [21:01]
A
Are you guys getting news about, for example, the, the National Counterterrorism Director in the United States resigning? Are you getting that kind of news coming out of the United States? The fact that, you know, one of Donald Trump's top counterterrorism directors has stepped down because he said that there was no imminent threat from Iran.
- [21:24]
B
Anything that makes the Iranians, the Iranian government, more positive and optimistic, we hear about. So, yes, obviously the resignation of a senior Trump administration official that is getting reported on Iranian state media. So we've been told about that. Other things we're not hearing about so much. But just going back to what, what Zein was saying, I think, you know, we got two wars going on here, I think, haven't we? 1. 1 is the Iranians are fighting in kind of a war to kind of hold the world to ransom with the Strait of Hormuz. And it seemed, you know, prepared or not really able to do anything about the other war the Americans and Israelis are waging, which is destroying all of its military, its warplanes, its Navy, much of its missiles, and assassinating each official that they, that they can.
- [22:10]
A
And it feels like we've lost them. I mean, obviously, connectivity is so ropey. I don't think we have Dom and Zane anymore. They may be able to hear me, but I can't hear them. And just gives you a sense of just how difficult with this Internet blackout, things are in terms of coverage. Oh, can you hear me? Are you guys back?
- [22:33]
B
Yeah, we got you back. Yes. I don't know for how long.
- [22:36]
A
Okay, well, let's Try and, you know, let's try and wrap it up because we have, you know, I want to make the most of the time, but it's extraordinary to sort of hear some of your insights. And, you know, you have been there for almost a week. I just wonder how it feels from where you are in terms of, you know, how this will actually end.
- [22:58]
B
It's hard to say. I mean, I think, as I said, the options for America, they get more and more problematic. And the longer this goes on Iran, the fewer their good options are. I think the Israelis have a different point of view, which is that they can live with strategically, they can certainly live with chaos in Iran and they will continue trying to completely destroy all its military, all its missiles, and reduce the threat that it poses to Israel as much as they can. And that may set them at odds with the Americans who are going to have different priorities. I still think that Donald Trump's going to want to get out of this sooner than later. And I think finding an off ramp is going to be increasingly difficult in a way that he can dress up as any kind of a, kind of a win. And I think from where we're sitting, the Iranians, we've got a much better sense now that the Iranians are determined to try and outlast the enemy, to resist. And I think, you know, if you're going to try and assassinate leaders, a country where martyrdom is literally embraced in a religious and cultural sense and where resistance and no surrender are kind of completely embedded into the DNA, all of that's going to act against you. And I think the Israelis and Americans need to of manage their expectations in that sense. I think the Iranians are prepared to dig in. You know, they've lost much of their military, but as long as they're not invaded, the government can kind of retreat to the shadows and continue to resist. And there is no, at the moment, any sort of popular threat, populist threat to the government. So they can hang on in there. And I think that's going to be increasingly a problem for the Americans in particular, who I think, you know, Donald Trump is facing all kinds of clocks running against him, not least that midterm
- [24:40]
C
political clock, I would just say, from where, you know, it's one thing to speculate about what might possibly come down the line the longer this conflict goes on for and whether this kind of continuous sort of US And Israeli attacks on Iran actually gets people kind of galvanized and support, you know, around not necessarily the government, but around sort of unity as it did in, in June. In that war, there's a kind of sense of national unity in the, in the fact that their country was being so badly hit. Whether the kind of continuous targeting of senior leaders eventually makes certain people and certain senior commanders or senior officials think twice about the direction that's going in, that's all kind of speculation. What we can say, I think, is from what we've seen, the cities that we've been in and the places that we've been to, the state is still very much in control and intact here, even if the senior leadership is not. So it doesn't seem like there's any kind of major shift, shift from that yet. And it doesn't feel like from where we are that's imminent, certainly not in sort of days or weeks. And what comes down the line in months to come is impossible to predict.
- [25:43]
B
What we don't know is what the special forces of either America or Israel are doing on the ground, taking advantage of the kind of bombardment we're hearing on a daily and nightly basis here. But I think it's fair to say, you know, unless the Americans and Israelis have a plan of how to disarm hundreds of thousands of, of government supporters in Iran and put some kind of weapons into the hands of any opposition groups that might exist here, it's very hard to see how that equation is overturned against the government. You know, and I think, you know, you have the strange situation actually for this entire podcast, we haven't heard a single bang, have we? But actually most nights you're hearing thuds and crumps and an anti aircraft fire going off into the sky. Last night was the firework night and the last Tuesday before now is the Narrows, the Persian New Year with a strange kind of sort of juxtaposition of fireworks going up, but also incoming coming in. We could see explosions not too far from us. You could hear a lot of very loud bangs, anti aircraft fire going up. And so Iranians are getting used to, you know, celebrating their sort of religious holidays at the same time, carrying on with life as normal at the same time as being bombarded by the sky. And so we're settling into kind of, I guess a kind of normality in a sense there, which I think the government will hope it can continue sustaining for some time and hope it can run the clock out on its, on its enemies.
- [27:05]
A
I mean, it's extraordinary insights and again, like I said, it's so rare to hear this from inside the country. So thank you for your reporting, both of you, and stay safe it's really great to talk to you both and thank you so much for joining joining us.
- [27:20]
B
Thanks yada. Good to talk to you.
- [27:21]
A
Thanks guys. See you soon. Stay safe. Happy Nowruz.
- [27:35]
C
Your country's in big trouble.
- [27:36]
E
The world is a pretty confusing place right now.
- [27:39]
C
How long have you known about Andrew and X thing?
- [27:42]
E
I'm Neil PATTERSON and after 20 years reporting and presenting for Sky News News 1, things become clear. People don't just want to know what's happened, they want to know why. Our new daily podcast takes one story at a time. Explains what's really going on and why you need to know. This is why. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.