← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Inside Israel-Iran conflict special
00:28:45
In this episode, Yalda and Richard meet up in Tel Aviv as they are both in Israel reporting on the Israel-Iran conflict. Yalda has been in Jerusalem since Israel launched its attacks on Iranian nuclear sites, military bases and top commanders. She...
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- [00:00]
Yelda
Foreign hello, welcome to the world. I'm Yelda.
- [00:08]
Richard Engel
And I'm Richard Engel and we are together this time. It is great to see you.
- [00:12]
Yelda
So good to see you, Richard. We are together here in Tel Aviv and what a crazy week it's been. Israel and Iran have exchanged strikes for the fourth day as fighting continues to intensify. What you can hear right now are the sirens that are blaring, which means that there are these sirens that go out that alert the Israeli public that ballistic missiles from Iran are heading in this direction. I'm just going to put some body armor on. President Trump leaves G7 talks early as the conflict between Israel and Iran enters a fifth day with explosions heard over television.
- [00:57]
Richard Engel
Sometimes they have to fight it out, but we're going to see what happens. I think there's a good chance there'll be a deal. Amazing times, dangerous times, and so much to unpack. What we've seen, what we're hearing and where we think this is going.
- [01:15]
Yelda
And before we get going, send us your questions, we love getting them. We're both in the field at the moment, so send us your thoughts about the situation here between Israel and Iran at the usual place, the worldkay.uk let's.
- [01:28]
Richard Engel
Get right into it.
- [01:36]
Yelda
So, Richard, I mean, who would have thought, just a few weeks ago when you and I were talking about the Iran nuclear deal and how close the Americans and the Iranians were coming to a potential deal, there was always the sort of murmurings that this might happen, that Israel was wanting to attack. And here we are. You've been out and about today, Richard. Just give me a sense of where you've been, what you've seen and what the mood is.
- [02:05]
Richard Engel
I just got back a few minutes ago from one of the impact sites where a ballistic missile got through the, the net, got through the Iron Dome. And I'm not sure if people understand what a ballistic missile is. It's a big thing. It's not like the little rockets that Hamas was firing from Gaza. Ballistic missiles are huge. Think of a city bus, not a double decker bus like in the uk, just a normal bus. I went to the site where one of these big ballistic missiles got through. The Israeli defense system exploded, left a crater that was probably, I don't know, five, six meters deep. And it hit around all where the buses were parked. So all the buses in the area were charred, nothing left of them. Yesterday I went to another site that was hit by one of these incoming ballistic missiles. It hit an apartment complex and there were, there were Casualties. There were fatalities in that attack, and it was big. You know, it knocked out an apartment, obliterated it apart, obliterated the apartments above and below, and made most of the apartments in the entire building uninhabitable. Knocked out the windows, pushed in the doors, pushed, dropped the ceilings. So these are big bombs that, that Iran is firing, and it's a different kind of conflict. They're also hitting military sites, but the Israelis aren't letting anyone get anywhere near those sites. So it's difficult to assess how much damage they're causing to the military infrastructure of this country. But I would say so far the Israelis are behind this.
- [03:45]
Yelda
And the question is, for now, they're behind Benjamin Netanyahu. But for how long and how many ballistic missiles do the Iranians have? And what sort of air defenses and supply does the, do the Israelis have in terms of their interceptors? I was in Jerusalem the other day, by the way, Richard, reporting. Suddenly, you know, my phone went off because there was going to be ballistic beep and then it's about seven to 12 minutes, by the way, for it to reach.
- [04:15]
Richard Engel
People are always asking us. We look at the comments about how long the process. No, but at the process, how we do this job. So let's look at, peel back the curtain a little bit. So what, how do these alerts work? What is it like for you when you're, when you're reporting, say you're on a rooftop in Jerusalem or you're out interviewing someone on the street, and then what is it? The phones go off. I've had the same thing. But tell people how you've dealt with it and what happened.
- [04:41]
Yelda
So in general here, they ask you to download an app on your phone. I haven't done that. But regardless of whether you do it or not, the alert comes up on your phone saying that there is a, you know, there are ballistic missiles being launched that have been detected from Iran on. So seek shelter. They might give you a warning that it's coming or, you know, that they've detected it. So they, they give you about sort of an immediate alert. When I've been on a rooftop reporting, the expectation is as soon as that alert comes, I come off air and get myself to safety. That happens whether I'm in Ukraine, where we've seen similar things, or here in Israel.
- [05:18]
Richard Engel
But there's a lag time. So they alarm is launching. So it's, it's the time between launch.
- [05:24]
Yelda
And splash and launch and splash. We're talking seven to 12 minutes. So you've got you know, a sort of about 10 minutes to get yourself into a bunker. And now I've spoken to Israelis who have said, you know, when the Houthis were launching rockets or when Hamas was launching rockets or when Hezbollah was launching rockets, we were just getting on with our lives. We weren't going down. The bulk of us weren't getting into bunkers. But this is no joke, this is serious. And you've seen the impact yourself going out today with, you know, these. Whether it's the. A military installation that's hit that we can't get to, or whether it's an apartment block that's hit, you know, Tel Aviv, parts of Israel. People here have dealt with sirens and bunkers in the past, but this is now no joke.
- [06:08]
Richard Engel
And then. So I've had the same experience. You, you get this, this buzz. I didn't download the app either, but you still get the buzz on your phone anyway, and it makes a loud ring. Don't know where it's going to come in, just that there was a launch and then you hear the siren, specifically where you are. So last night, Tel Aviv, this is a party town, right? People are always out. It's known for its restaurants. It's normally pretty heaving at night. The streets were dead quiet. And then, you know, about, say maybe it was six, seven minutes, eight minutes after the, the buzz went off, you hear the sirens. And in a silent city, as it was last night, it was really quite something, quite spooky in a way, in a silent city. And then you hear these really powerful air raid sirens going off and then impact or the. The Iron Dome system going off and, and intercepting in the sky.
- [07:02]
Yelda
Well, we'll have to wait and see how long this goes on for. The Israelis say that they're not going to stop until they complete all operations. There are segments of society that I've spoken to who are angry with Benjamin Netanyahu and believe that he is doing this for his. That he's doing this for political survival, that he's doing this to get to the next election and win another five years. Right? So there is an aspect, a segment of society angry. But what I have also seen is how behind Benjamin Netanyahu they are in this instance. They do see Iran as an existential threat. He has sold that narrative to the Israeli people and said they want to wipe us off the face of the earth. There was a lot of anger, but it's extraordinary to see how much behind him they are in this instance.
- [07:53]
Richard Engel
Every week. There used to be protests against Netanyahu here, they're gone. You're not. There's nobody tonight. There won't be any people out on the streets protesting. In fact, because of the incoming bombs, generally at night here last night, I was waiting to see what was happened. So I was looking out the balcony, looking at the streets. We don't see anybody on the streets, not protesters, not anybody. Just ambulances, kind of patrolling, police cars, worried. So they're worried for their physical safety. And I think they're worried politically. They don't want to speak. It would seem unpatriotic at wartime. They're biting their tongues for the moment.
- [08:33]
Yelda
I think that, as you say, that people feel at this point in time it would be unpatriotic to now speak up against Benjamin Netanyahu. I actually spoke with the president of Israel and I said to him, listen, you guys are talking about potential regime change, but what we're seeing, the people, okay, sure, the top commanders within the Revolutionary Guard and within the Iranian regime are being taken out. But we're also seeing poets being killed. We're also seeing Pilates teachers being killed. We're also seeing activists and artists killed. Is this the message you're sending to the Iranian people? Is this what you're saying, that we're going to rain bombs over your cities? And he said to me, listen, this is a historic moment for us. They were rushing and racing for the bomb. And I said to him, but US Intelligence doesn't say that. US Intelligence is saying that they are not weaponizing their program, that they haven't gone back to what the Ayatollah shut down in 2003, you know, the weapons program that they had. So where are you getting this intel from? I just want to play a short clip of the president and listen to what he has. President Herzog, President Herzog, the Directorate of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard speaking just a few months ago, two months ago, before the Senate Intelligence Committee, said that the US Intelligence community continues to assess that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon and that the supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003. Why is your intelligence different to that of the United.
- [10:15]
Richard Engel
That was two months ago. Following that, a delegation of the very high officials from Israel, who are the closest to the prime ministers, came to the White House and presented all the data to the president's team, the national security team of the President of the United States of America. And I think from then on, it's different.
- [10:37]
Yelda
So he Basically said that we had no choice. This was the 90th minute they were rushing to the bomb. And you know, it's an existential threat. We have to get behind this.
- [10:47]
Richard Engel
Can I tell you something? It reminds me a lot of 2003, right before the US invaded Iraq. But at, at the time the message was have to attack Iraq and many Americans believed it. There were huge protests in London. People didn't accept it, but the Americans did that if we didn't attack Iraq and Saddam Hussein at the time Saddam was going to get a nuclear weapon and that he was going to give it to Al Qaeda. Somehow you have to remember the US had just had nine, 11. So there were terrorism fears everywhere. But the, the logic that was being sold to the, the American people and the world and the UN was that Saddam was building nuclear weapons. Turned out he wasn't. The US kept looking for them and never found them. That he was building nuclear weapons and that he was somehow in alliance with Al Qaeda and that if we didn't act there was going to be a mushroom cloud because Al Qaeda would be armed with a nuclear weapon. And the US went to war over this, changed the regime and Iraq is still a mess. It ripped up the fabric of the Middle East. I'm not defending Saddam Hussein. He wasn't a great guy, he killed many people. But the disruptive action of carrying out regime change based on nebulous allegations that one country is about to develop this capability. And if we don't act now, it's going to be worse because suddenly there'll be nuclear bombs exploding in Western cities. We're hearing that same analogy and that same logic again. President Herzogen said the same thing. If we don't act, there's going to be bombs in Tel Aviv and there's going to be bombs in New York. There's going to be dead Israelis and there's going to be dead Americans though they're making this same kind of argument, but I'm not hearing what's the end plan? Where does this go? Aside from Herzog, the President, by the way, that's a great get any other. What else have you. Who else have you been talking? Do anything else strike you?
- [13:00]
Yelda
Yeah. So I also did an interview with the Iranian ambassador to the UK and you know, you were in Iran several times over the course of the last few months, but we rarely hear from these Iranian officials. We rarely get an insight into what they're thinking, what the regime thinks. But he did say we do have a right to defend ourselves. This was Unprovoked. Now, of course, you know, the Israelis, the Americans will say, well, we, you know, believe that the way that you're conducting your nuclear program is a threat to us, certainly from the Israeli side. Even though the American intelligence community has often said that they're not weaponizing, they're not close to building a bomb. The Iranians are now saying we have a right to defend ourselves. We're not backing down. We will come back to the negotiating table if and when this stops, but we are going to continue our operations. Let's just have a listen to what he had to say. United Nations Charter. This is our inherent right of, to self defense. Now we are defending ourselves. According to the Charter of United Nations. There is no doubt that the one act of aggression has been placed against the Iranian territory. And according to this principle, this is a very important principle in United Nations Charter and as well as international law, that to defend ourselves.
- [14:25]
Richard Engel
And that I think is an odd position, I will say, because we've covered a lot of ceasefires and a lot of truces. Usually you do enter into talks while you're fighting. That's the whole point of going into negotiations. We want to stop.
- [14:40]
Yelda
There's always a military and a diplomatic.
- [14:42]
Richard Engel
But he's saying, and you hear this a lot from sort of the, let's call it the broader international community. Some European officials from Arab officials have been telling me this, that the Iranians couldn't go into negotiations now because they're under attack. I'm not entirely sure I understand that logic. If you're under attack and you're fighting a war and you're fighting a war that you're losing and Iran is losing this war because Israel has total air superiority. They can pick and choose their targets. They just blew up the Iranian television station main headquarters the other day while they were on air.
- [15:16]
Yelda
Like we cannot under sort of state, total air superiority. I mean, they are flying over Iran. They the way that they would be flying over Gaza. They have complete control over the skies.
- [15:29]
Richard Engel
Like the way aircraft would be flying over Heathrow. You know, they do what they want over, over Iran right now. So if you're Iran, it probably is a good time to negotiate instead of sticking on this principle. We cannot negotiate under fire. I'm not sure in war and peace, I think you do negotiate under. Under fire.
- [15:49]
Yelda
Well, I guess the question is how does this end? From my assessment, what I see is two men, one 75 years old, one 86 years old and both actually when you think about the Supreme Leader, he would have preferred for Israel. From my conversations with those who are analyzing the situation and they've said to.
- [16:13]
Richard Engel
Me, wait, Supreme Leader is 86, who's a 76 year old?
- [16:17]
Yelda
Benjamin Netanyahu.
- [16:18]
Richard Engel
Netanyahu.
- [16:19]
Yelda
So we've got two older men, he.
- [16:20]
Richard Engel
Didn'T know his age. He actually looks, he looks pretty good for his age.
- [16:23]
Yelda
We've got two older men ideological and believing they have a mission from God right to their people, to their political survival. And those who assess the thinking of the Supreme Leader have said to me that they believe that he would have rather Israel attack than to capitulate to Trump with the deal and say no uranium enrichment whatsoever, which was one of the requirements that the US Put in front of the Iranians. On the other hand, you've got Benjamin Netanyahu, 75 years old, fighting for his own political survival, which at different points he's been at a low, he's been at a high. Right now he's having another high. And his feeling is I'm going to go in, I'm going to ignore what the rest of the international community wants and I'm going to attack Iran. So ultimately what we have here is two men risking the future of this region for their own political and ideological needs.
- [17:24]
Richard Engel
So when I was in Iran and I was there for almost a month, that's a long time for an American journalist to have pretty free access. We didn't have a minder. We went where we want. We were interviewing people on the streets. I came and went from my hotel wherever I wanted. I didn't tell people. I didn't, you know, just sort of knock on a military base and walk in. But I wouldn't be able to do that anywhere in the world but for Iran's perspective. And I had a lot of freedom of movement. And the reason I think I was given this kind of access is because they didn't want a deal. I interviewed this top advisor to the Supreme Leader, Ali Shamkhani.
- [18:05]
Yelda
And is he alive?
- [18:07]
Richard Engel
He is still alive, according to Iranian sources. Many people have reported him dead. He was one of the, the top commanders that Israel targeted on the first day. So he was in the most important negotiation. He was the chief negotiator. But much more than that. He was not just the chief negotiator participating in these talks with, with the US he was an advisor to the Supreme Leader. He was a military advisor, he was a nuclear advisor. He was someone who was hated by many circles in Iran for being someone who was involved in orchestrating the crackdowns against women A real hardliner among hardliners who'd been there for a long time. Probably one of the top half dozen, most powerful half dozen people in the entire country. Yes, apparently he is still alive. He was targeted. His apartment was targeted. I did the last interview with him, and in that interview, he said, we want a deal. We think we can have better relations with the United States, but these are our terms. And he laid out the terms, and he said that we want to be able to enrich uranium at a low level for domestic use. He said, we want to get rid of this highly enriched uranium. He didn't say where it was going to go, but get rid of, meaning it's no longer under their control and possession. An immediate lifting of sanctions. He's like. And they would open up the country immediately to international inspectors to verify it all. He said, if we do that, we'll sign a deal today.
- [19:47]
Yelda
President Trump responded to that.
- [19:48]
Richard Engel
President Trump responded, said, look, great, looks like they've come to a deal. President Trump responded specifically to the article that I wrote and said, oh, look, the top guy there or one of the top guys there laid out the terms. They've pretty much agreed it's looking good. And then they were heading into negotiations. Before those negotiations took place, there was this surprise attack. And it is raising the questions. The question among many, many Iranians and certainly among Iranian officials, was this whole negotiating process a fraud? Was it all a dupe? Was it all a trick? Was Trump in on it? Was he just trying to kind of give them a false sense of security? Or did Benjamin Netanyahu. And this is actually what our latest reporting, NBC has got some confirmation on this, that Trump was a believer in the process, wanted this process to go forward, but that he was recently, very recently convinced by the Israelis that now was the time to act, that they were racing toward a bomb, that they were going to soon restore their missile defense systems, which had been previously destroyed by Israel, and now or never. And that if we don't do anything, it's going to be bad. And that they presented President Trump with a list of options ranging from killing the Supreme Leader, which he nixed, to doing nothing, and then a variety of options in the, in the middle.
- [21:17]
Yelda
Well, I think what we know about Donald Trump is he likes gold, he doesn't like blood, he doesn't like war. You know, but what I think this.
- [21:24]
Richard Engel
Whole situation, so sure about that, we will see. I pretty convinced he's going to end up as a wartime leader. He keeps saying this, oh, I don't like Bloodshed. I don't like war. I don't like conflict.
- [21:33]
Yelda
He just hasn't been able to resolve it, though, Richard. He wants to, I think, finds be the guy who resolves the Ukraine, Russia crisis. I think he wanted at one point, this deal. But I also think he sees now, you know, that Israel has conducted these operations. And frankly, what we've seen. Let's question the competence levels of the Iranian regime. Massive intelligence and security failures. You had generals asleep in their beds on the night of the attack. You had a bunch of commanders lured by the Mossad to a meeting where they were then just all bombed, and.
- [22:12]
Richard Engel
There were Mossad agents already on the.
- [22:14]
Yelda
Ground building drones, drone bases, sort of.
- [22:17]
Richard Engel
Like the Ukraine attack.
- [22:18]
Yelda
So when people say, do they need boots on the ground? I don't know about boots, but they've had plenty of sneakers on the ground for a long time. And not just, you know, we're not talking in the last couple of months.
- [22:28]
Richard Engel
These operations wear sneakers.
- [22:30]
Yelda
They wear sneakers all the time. They're not wearing military boots. They're floating around in their sneakers. But, but what we're seeing is for at least 15 to 20 years, these operations where they've had agents on the ground working for them, and they've been able to infiltrate deep into the Iranian system. Why? Because this particular regime is incredibly unpopular. They have brutalized their people. They may not be great now that we've seen over the course of the last week at managing a crisis like this, but they're brilliant at oppressing and suppressing their people.
- [23:06]
Richard Engel
But what's next?
- [23:07]
Yelda
But it's up to them to change their regime.
- [23:09]
Richard Engel
And where is this going? You don't need to like the regime. It has nothing to do with that. Very few people, if any Iraqis liked Saddam Hussein, he had his power base, but in general, he was, was feared Iran, very similar. Many Iranians don't like the regime, don't like the Islamic revolutionary government that has been in power since 1979. But what happens next? What is going to replace it? Where does this go? Prime Minister Netanyahu keeps talking about reshaping the Middle East. Remember that speech he gave to the United Nations? There's going to be a new Middle east, and there's people who are on the side of the blessed and people who are on the side of evil. So he's going to reshape the Middle east based on these. This claim that they were about to break out and develop nuclear weapons. So how does this end? Where is this going? And you can be sort of Angry and impressed with the technological process. But this is serious. This is major, and it has impacts on other countries. It's going to have an impact on the west bank, could have an impact on Jordan. Once you start reshaping the Middle east, then you're reshaping the region and it could unravel.
- [24:22]
Yelda
And I guess, you know, these are big questions that we need to now ask. How does this end? What's the strategy? What's the plan? You know, coming in as an external force and pushing for regime change in another country is. Is. Is quite a massive claim, as you say, because we have seen it before, and we've also seen how that's ended.
- [24:40]
Richard Engel
But again, Israel says they don't want regime change, just want to be able to fly over Iran. I don't even think at any time. That's what the defense Minister said today. Just fly over the country at any time. And whatever they want, I think they've.
- [24:49]
Yelda
Made it quite clear that they want regime change. Netanyahu as well as I asked the president, Isaac Herzog, I said, you know, what about these reports that. That you guys were going to assassinate the Supreme Leader? And he said, I don't want to talk about that. The war Cabinet is discussing that. But this is a brutal regime that, you know, is called on the Iranian.
- [25:09]
Richard Engel
People to rise up and get rid of their government. I mean, that's a regime change act.
- [25:13]
Yelda
But I think in the meantime, what we have is Donald Trump calling for millions of Iranians to evacuate their homes, bombs falling on Iranian apartments. No bunkers, no shelters, no Plan B. And then here in Israel, I mean, every other hour, there are sirens going off on our phones.
- [25:32]
Richard Engel
Although this is happening, and as this is happening, there is still the massive war going on in Gaza, which only seems to be getting worse.
- [25:39]
Yelda
Yeah.
- [25:39]
Richard Engel
You know, just today, we spoke to a medical official in Gaza, said that more than 50 people were killed today by drones, Israeli drones and artillery, according to this medical official, while they were collecting food.
- [25:53]
Yelda
That's a daily occurrence now.
- [25:55]
Richard Engel
That's big numbers. And the Israelis acknowledged it. The Israeli military came out with a statement sort of acknowledging it, saying, yes, we're aware of this incident. Repair aware that there were casualties as a result of IDF fire as crowds rushed toward troops. And we are investigating it and regret the loss of the lives of those who are, quote, uninvolved, sort of some vague statement, but an acknowledgement that this happened. And it's happening, as you say, all the time.
- [26:29]
Yelda
Richard, so nice to see you in person. We'll have to wait and see how long we end up here. In terms of predictions, I'm going to say I'm hoping that a ceasefire deal might be struck, that Benjamin Netanyahu is engaged now in a bigger war, an actual war, rather than, you know.
- [26:49]
Richard Engel
So you think he stops.
- [26:50]
Yelda
I think he might stop on Gaza and that I believe from my understanding is now in the works again to resurrect some kind of ceasefire. And I think he might rush to an election because he's now riding a high again. So they're kind of my two predictions.
- [27:05]
Richard Engel
What about Iran? Does he keep going on Iran?
- [27:07]
Yelda
I think he keeps going on Iran until, because now they're building momentum and if that means that the Supreme Leader is the, the kind of final thing for them, then so be it.
- [27:17]
Richard Engel
The I, I don't know about the ceasefire deal in Gaza maybe. I mean, it's very possible. It's not that the Palestinians really can, can do anything else but agree to a ceasefire. I mean, they're, they're defeated, they're starving, they're under attack. How can they not agree to terms, even if it is capitulation and surrender? I don't know. I don't really see what other choice they've got in this situation. And in terms of Iran, the way they're describing it now as this long term existential threat and that they want to be able to fly over Iran at will, attacking targets, it doesn't sound like they're going to stop anytime soon. So my prediction would be that they keep going. Netanyahu feels that he has the Iranians up against the rope. And if you're a boxer and you see your opponents sort of weak, bloodied, losing consciousness and is up against the rope, he'd probably go until he's, until he's knocked out.
- [28:22]
Yelda
Richard, really good to see you and thank you so much to our listeners for joining us.
- [28:27]
Richard Engel
Great to be with you in person and thanks for everyone for listening. Until next time.
- [28:35]
Yelda
Sam.