← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
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- [00:03]
Yalda Hakim
Sky News, the full story first. Hello, it's Yalda and I'm currently in Beirut.
- [00:18]
Richard
And me, Richard, and I'm in Tel Aviv.
- [00:23]
Unnamed Military Official
The leadership is gone. The navy is gone, the air force is gone. The anti aircraft equipment that they have, the radar they have is all gone. Everything's gone.
- [00:36]
Benjamin Netanyahu
In the last 48 hours, Iran targeted a civilian area. They're doing that as a mass murder weapon. Luckily no one was killed, but that's due to luck, not their intention. Their intention is to murder civilians.
- [00:52]
Richard
Why the Israel's. No, no, I think I only feared it. This is a serious subject. This is a serious. My question, go ahead. You don't have time. Why you don't. This is war and peace here. So President Trump says talks are underway with Iran to end the war, but the Iranian military and government are calling it fake news. So is President Trump just buying time as more Marines head to the region or is he serious about winding down the war?
- [01:33]
Yalda Hakim
And the big question, where are the Israelis in all of this? I'm currently in Lebanon where bombs continue to fall. Over a million people have been displaced. Over a thousand people killed. More than 100 children within that. Thousand killed. So we're going to be talking about that in a moment. And of course, that extraordinary exchange, Richard, you had with Benjamin Netanyahu. I mean, there were so many rumors, swirling, conspiracy theories that he wasn't alive. And so I want to hear all about that from you, including that interview.
- [02:05]
Richard
I'll tell you what, what happened inside the room and how it all happened. As always, a lot to get into. Welcome to the world podcast, Yalda. Welcome back to the region. So how are you?
- [02:26]
Yalda Hakim
I'm good, I'm good. I mean, we've been trailing this war for the last almost four weeks. We've entered week four of this conflict and so far I've been to Israel. I was in Riyadh briefly, I was in Doha, and now I'm in Beirut because we really felt like this story wasn't getting the coverage that it should be. You're in Israel though, and before we.
- [02:47]
Richard
With no air travel, by the way. Very little no air travel. So we're talking driving across borders. Truly driving through the desert.
- [02:55]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, exactly. But before we get into all of that, which we will do, I really just want our listeners to hear more about that incredible exchange you had with Benjamin Netanyahu. Talk us through, Richard. From the very beginning, how it all came about and then, you know, we could dissect that exchange you had.
- [03:14]
Richard
Sure. So it wasn't an exclusive Interview. I got a call in the last moment, I should say. Our office here in Israel got a call in the last minute saying, we want Richard to come to this press conference. Only two people, very limited, and we only had a tiny bit of notification. We had to get there and we had to come now. And a few foreign reporters who were here, and there's lots of journalists in the country, but they had selected a few who they wanted to be in the room because they had something clearly to say to the foreign media. So jump in a car, finish up a couple of things. Jump in a car. And we, we go there and go through the security and get into the room. And it was a pretty, pretty small room and I was told that I would get a question. So they sat me in the front row and we. He comes in shortly there afterwards, and I asked one of, one of the questions and the basic question was, okay, so what do you, what do you want to accomplish out of all of this war? Good to see you again, Mr. Prime Minister, and thank you for meeting at this historic and I would say, very dangerous time. You have wanted a war against Iran to change regime, as you yourself said, for many years. Many Americans do believe that Israel dragged the United States in this war and is now pulling the rest of the. Of the world along with it. How do you see this ending?
- [04:42]
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well, I think we have concrete goals how to do it, how to end it. We wanted, as I said, decimate the ballistic missile program, which we're doing, decimate the nuclear program, which we're doing. I think that those are goals that are achievable, but I'm not going to put a schedule or stopwatch on it. I think we have goals that wait, that have to be achieved, and we're not counting the days. But I will say this, this canard that we dragged the United States into, it is not just a canard. It's ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. I mean, I think President Trump said it best, and I said it as well many times. There's always a danger in acting, but in conditions of existential threats, there's a much greater danger in not acting. What do you think would have happened if America did not act now? Just imagine what would have happened in a few months time, no more than a year, Khamenei, still alive, would have ordered the beginnings of the new nuclear program and the reconstructed ballistic missile program to move underground. Now, it'll take them a little time, maybe a few years, but you can't reach those programs. And they develop intercontinental Ballistic missiles, okay? That means missiles that can hit Chicago and New York and Florida and Texas and California. Oh, but they don't have it yet. That's what people said, right? Let's wait. Just let them do it. You know, just wait. Wait and let them do it.
- [06:27]
Yalda Hakim
So there he is, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu. He's often described as some kind of magician because the way in which he's able to convince different presidents to sort of do as he wants. And again, we've seen another president dragged into a war in the Middle east, and he was sort of, you know, really kind of talking you through why Israel went in, what its objectives are, which, frankly, are different to the objectives of the Americans.
- [06:58]
Richard
It's funny you mentioned that, because if you notice the way I asked the question, many Americans do think that Israel dragged the United States into the war, because I believe the reason he called this small gathering of foreign reporters was to address this topic specifically, because a lot of comedians in the United States, politicians who don't support the war, average American people. ONLINE chatter. The general consensus was building that this was Israel's idea, that this was Netanyahu's personal idea, and he wanted to say, no, no, no, no, no. This was something that President Trump wanted to do and we are an ally. And that he didn't take convincing that, yes, sure, we talked. We, meaning Netanyahu and President Trump, that the two of them talked. But he said it was Trump who brought up the nuclear issue and there was no convincing involved. And he said it's the US Leading this campaign with Israel as an ally. So he distinctively put himself in the. I don't want to say in the back seat, but he was trying to say clearly and emphatically, we're not driving this.
- [08:16]
Yalda Hakim
And I'm.
- [08:17]
Richard
So the Americans are.
- [08:19]
Benjamin Netanyahu
I tell you that there is enormous risk in not acting, much greater risk than acting. And if you think that the oil markets are in trouble today, think of Iran with nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them, then think of the blackmail that you would endure.
- [08:36]
Richard
I didn't exactly ask, however, why the Israelis. No, no. I think I only figured out this is a serious subject. This is a serious. My question. This is war and peace here. There are oil fields around the world that are burning. Gas prices are going up. The war is popular here in Israel. It is not popular with many Americans. So my question was, how do you see this ending? Not why, not even when. What do you imagine the day after will look like?
- [09:08]
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well, we have achievable goals and I'm not going to speak about the full battle plans that we have with the United States. We're well coordinated with them. I will say this, that once we achieve our goals, then I have argued, I think, and Americans understand this very well because we're real partners, I think that what has to be done is to have alternative routes instead of going through the choke points of the, of the Hormuz Straits and the Bab El Mandeb Straits in order to have the flow of oil, just have oil pipelines, pipelines going west through the Arabian Peninsula right up to Israel, right up to our Mediterranean ports. And you've just done away with the choke points for forever. That is definitely possible suit. I see that as I see that as a real change that will follow this war.
- [10:12]
Yalda Hakim
I mean, it's quite something, isn't it? Richard, I just want to get your thoughts on listening to Benjamin Netanyahu talking about his bigger, grander strategy for the region. Because as far as you know, from what I can see, what we do know is that there are going to be certainly in these early stages, clear winners and losers of this conflict. And one of the winners, of course, is we've talked about this on the program, we talked about the Ukrainians and the Russians. But Israel is clearly a winner in all of this because, you know, when you look at Benjamin Netanyahu and when I talk to people in the region, they say that they're not dealing with institutions, not in Israel, not in the United States. They're dealing with characters and they're dealing with a Benjamin Netanyahu and a Donald Trump. And Benjamin Netanyahu has managed, and you can tell us more about this, but you know, there is popular support for this war in Israel. He's managed to shift the attention away from Gaza and put the focus back on Iran in an election year. He's managed to really show his security and economic strengths through this war. And frankly for the Israelis, their ambitions are very clear. Whether or not they have regime change in all of this. They want to weaken Iran. What's sort of unclear in all of this is what are the Americans and their objectives on all of this, because they've thrown all these resources and now we're seeing the US President trying to get himself out of this mess.
- [11:51]
Richard
So I think it was clear from his answer and that he has a multi generational plan, a long term vision of how Israel should develop once this Iranian regime is overthrown, the Islamic revolutionary regime that has been in power since 1979 or is weakened to a point that it is no longer a factor in world politics, sort of carving up the Persian sphere of influence or the Iranian sphere of influence. I think that's what Israel's long term play is here. Now, what happens to mainland Iran? US Troops are still coming. They're talking about occupying certain islands. They're sending what is called a mu, a Marine Expeditionary unit that does only one thing, that does beach landings and takes islands and takes ports. They have one basic function, it's soldiers at sea who get off big boats onto little boats and who take coasts, Normandy type stuff. Those troops are coming and they could take either one island, hog island, or a variety of islands. And that's still in play here. So what we could be seeing is the divvying up of the Persian Empire, the modern Persian Empire, the Persian Empire that was created by the Islamic revolutionary government in Iran, which is again, very different from the ancient Persian Empire, which has historic roots. So do Israel and the United States have the same goals? I can't see that they, they could. No two parties ever have the same goals, but I think all of the parties, including the Arab states that are behind it, are probably united in somehow seeing a benefit in the destruction of this Islamic revolutionary empire that the government of the Ayatollahs had created. Israel to create a buffer state for the US Oil and for the Gulf countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, is to turn the Persian Gulf into the Arabian Gulf.
- [14:04]
Yalda Hakim
And Richard, I mean, what we're seeing from the US President though, is that he is looking for some kind of off ramp to wrap this up, declaring victory one minute and then saying the next minute that he's going to be managing and controlling the Strait of Hormuz along with the Ayatollah. We have seen so much flipping and flopping from this US President. And in the lead up to the end of the weekend, you know, and Monday, we heard him say that he, he had given a 48 hour ultimatum to the Iranians saying, if you don't open up the Strait of Hormuz because of the impact it's having on the global economy, then we are going to target your power plants. The Iranians didn't pull back. They, in fact, they were escalating and sort of not showing that they were going to, you know, give in or cave into his 48 hour ultimatum. And in the end, Donald Trump had to come out and say, we've been talking and negotiating with the Iranians and I've decided to take this off the table for the next five days.
- [15:06]
Unnamed Military Official
So the discussions took place yesterday. They went into yesterday evening. They want very much to make a deal. We'd like to make a deal, too. We're going to get together today and if it goes well, we're going to end up with settling this. Otherwise, we'll just keep bombing our little hearts out.
- [15:26]
Richard
Who is Steve witkoff speaking with Mr. President?
- [15:29]
Unnamed Military Official
A top. A top person. Don't forget, we've wiped out the leadership phase one, phase two and largely phase three. But we're dealing with the man who I believe is the most respected and the leader. You know, it's a little tough. They've wiped out. We've wiped out everybody. No, not the Supreme Leader. We don't. Well, nobody's ever. Nobody heard of the second Supreme Leader. The sun.
- [15:56]
Yalda Hakim
I want to kind of break this down. Exactly that point that you've made. This isn't. People were jumping up and down and saying, oh, this is Donald Trump trying to wrap this war up. And I spoke to some Israeli security establishment sources that I have, and one of the statements they gave, which I'm going to read to our listeners, you know, someone said to me, I'd approach this cautiously with a grain of salt. It's early Monday morning in the US the start of the trading week. Markets opened higher, largely as expected following the weekend reports on the negotiations and the latest statements by Donald Trump. That said, I wouldn't view this move as a final step. We saw a similar pattern last week. Oil prices have also declined, supporting the positive sentiment in the short form. For now, it appears he's bought a few more days roughly into week four until the Marines arrive and complete their initial deployment and organization phase. The Iranians are already denying it. So the Iranians are saying, we're not talking to Trump. There are no channels open. He can give us the 48 hour ultimatum or take it away in terms of attacking our power stations, but he's just trying to manipulate the markets, which is very much in line with what Israelis were saying to me, that this is Donald Trump's attempt to buy himself time, whether it's for the Marines or whether it's to control the oil prices or the markets, but because frankly, the global economy has taken a hit. And when I interviewed the Qatari prime minister, he said to me, this isn't just about energy infrastructure. It's about things like fertilization, about food security. You know, this war and the closing of the Strait of Hormuz is impacting Gaza, it's impacting Afghanistan, it's impacting Sudan, it's impacting Yemen. It is impacting some of the most vulnerable places on the planet.
- [17:44]
Richard
So I work primarily on the US Time schedule and the news broke just as I was getting ready to do our morning show and had written a script about this threat that he had made over the weekend. And he had said if within 48 hours Iran doesn't fully and without threat reopen the Strait of Hormuz. He set a time at 7:44pm Eastern time. There was, the rockets were going to fly and the, and the Iranian oil infrastructure, power infrastructure was going to burn. Then he put out a statement just as I was going on air. So it was like a few minutes after 7:00am to say, okay, we've extended that threat five days. Well, five days is a, five business days and B, then you know how President Trump has made these phone calls. He likes to call reporters. That morning he called two business channels, CNBC and Fox Business. So he broke the news before the markets opened and then he made two of these quick phone calls to business reporters and he set the five day time limit because the US Stock markets are closed over the weekend to coincide with a workweek. That's one thing in terms of the unintended consequences. They are enormous. They are enormous. Every country you just mentioned is impacted. And then I was in Jerusalem, I don't know, a few days ago now, and a warhead from an Iranian missile, an apparent shoot down because the thing just sort of plummeted from the sky, almost exploded right now, did explode right next to some of the most holy sites in the world. If it had blown them up, this war could have become some sort of global religious conflict. And that could happen any day. Any day. We could have one emotional event that turns this into something completely different.
- [19:50]
Yalda Hakim
What we are seeing and hearing though, in the last sort of few days is this idea of negotiations because of course, the region is now scrambling. They want to wrap this up. And a couple of days ago I was hearing from some sources in the region that perhaps Pakistan was going to take a leading role. And then of course we heard from the Turks as well that they were going to, you know, be involved in, in these negotiations.
- [20:15]
Richard
But do you think that these talks are real? So Pakistan might be a mediator. I may be curious to hear why Pakistan. I was a lot, I was surprised by that. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on, on Pakistan. But do you think really that he's looking for an off ramp and this is, I don't know, he's talking about it. He's trying to Calm the markets down. I'm sure a lot of people around him would like to wrap this up. But if this is the recarving up of the Persian Empire and there's still what I'm calling the new. These Islamic republics, revolutionary Persian Empire, then, and the troops are still on the way, then is this buying time? Is this just. And why Pakistan? Please help me understand why Pakistan?
- [21:00]
Yalda Hakim
So a couple of things. First is, I think this is quintessential classic Trump. I almost wanna make a comparison to the trade wars that he started when he was using tariffs as leverage, where he basically bullied everyone and they all sort of bowed down and agreed to what he was saying, except China. And then in the end, he had to bow down China. We're almost seeing that similar sort of playbook here with the Iranians, where he's pushing and pushing and pushing them, and when he finds he can no longer push them because they're pushing back, he almost retreats and gives in and caves in and starts to talk about, you know, negotiating with Kim. Yeah, a little bit. So, you know, I do think, though, the region is on edge, it's concerned. They can see the impact it's having, not just regionally, but internationally. So key players are coming out and wanting to get involved.
- [21:53]
Richard
The threats of desalination plants.
- [21:55]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, of course. And, you know, because it's their livelihood. So, you know, in terms of Pakistan, why is Pakistan's name suddenly emerging? Pakistan is part of a handful of countries that, frankly, has a good relationship with the Iranian regime. The new Ayatollah Khamenei, the son of the slain leader, talked about Pakistan in his latest speech. He talked about it having a special place in his heart. And the supreme leader who was killed talked about having Pakistan close to his heart. So they respect Pakistan. Pakistan has, after Iran, the biggest Shia Muslim community on the planet. And when the Supreme Leader was killed, we saw all those protests breaking out, people dying, setting themselves alight in Pakistan. Dramatic images of demonstrations in Pakistan after the Supreme Leader was killed. Pakistan has. Asimoun, the Field Marshal has very good relations with Donald Trump. We've seen the Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif brief tweet out that Pakistan is ready and willing to be part of any kind of lead, any kind of negotiation, or allow Islamabad to be part of the, you know, the base where these talks take place. Donald Trump has just reposted that. So Donald Trump has good relations with Asim Munir, with Shabazz Sharif. He likes Pakistan. He's talked about liking Pakistan. Pakistan has good relations with the Iranians and they also have a defense pact with the Saudis. Right. So they're invested. They rely on Gulf oil and gas. They're invested in this is going to have a huge impact on their economy as well. So they need this resolved, hence Pakistan's involvement.
- [23:35]
Richard
Thank you very much, Yalda Hakim, that was very illuminating to me. I appreciate it. And blessed are the peacemakers, as they say. Let's hope they have some success. Let's take a quick break there. And Yalda, when we come back, I want to hear the all all about what you are seeing in Lebanon. We have not focused on that enough.
- [24:07]
Unnamed Military Official
Your country's in big trouble.
- [24:08]
Yalda Hakim
The world is a pretty confusing place right now.
- [24:11]
Benjamin Netanyahu
How long have you known about Andrew?
- [24:13]
Richard
And at ST, I'm Neil Patterson.
- [24:16]
Yalda Hakim
And after 20 years reporting and presenting for Sky News, one thing's become clear.
- [24:20]
Richard
People don't just want to know what's happened, they want to know why.
- [24:24]
Yalda Hakim
Our new daily podcast takes one story at a time, explains what's really going on and why.
- [24:29]
Richard
You need to know.
- [24:30]
Yalda Hakim
This is why.
- [24:32]
Richard
Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the world podcast. Yalda, you are in the Lebanese capital, Beirut. What is it like now? What are you seeing?
- [24:53]
Yalda Hakim
Well, Richard, you and I were both here in 2024 when war broke out and we saw ground troops here in Lebanon, in the south, Israeli ground troops. You know, Hezbollah has really put itself at the forefront of trying to defend Gaza back then. And we saw, and you know, you and I witnessed the way that the Israelis said they had decapitated Hezbollah from its leadership. Hassan Nasrallah was killed. You know, the top leadership was strike by strike. What we're seeing in Iran was a playbook, a pager in hand and then the walkie talkies and then the strikes that took place where we more or less believed that Hezbollah had been decapitated, their leader had been killed.
- [25:41]
Richard
Let's remind everyone. So this is 2024. So Israel had done Gaza, not that the war there is ended, but it had finished its major, was finishing. It was major combat operations. And now Israel was shifting north. So the attention of the Israeli military was suddenly on Hezbollah and they were doing these intelligence led operations on the, on the ground with airstrikes and pager strikes. And they were also sending troops into south Lebanon. Right, that's, that's the 2024 where 24 war.
- [26:15]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. And so what but what we saw over the last 18 months or so after a ceasefire was, was called was that the Israelis were continuing to hammer Hezbollah you know, areas and where they thought they were operating from. Strike after strike for 15. And when I would question Israeli officials about this, we thought you had decapitated the leadership. Hezbollah is not what it used to be. It has been weakened. Why do you keep bombing southern Lebanon? You know, why do you keep trying to attack these different areas in the south? And they continue to say, well, they're rearming, they're regrouping. And what we saw after the Supreme Leader was killed by the Americans and the Israelis and the war in Iran began, Hezbollah started firing rockets into northern. Which meant immediately Israel responded, and it responded hard. And within the last three or four weeks, what we've seen is. I mean, the numbers, Richard, are staggering. A million people, 20% of this country's population, small country, 5 million people, 20% of its population have now been displaced here in the capital. Scenes like what we saw in 2024, families sleeping in their cars, families trying to take shelter. What's different about this particular time? And this country has seen its fair share of war with Israel. What feels different is how random the attacks are. I went to a building site in central Beirut, just five minutes away from downtown. Right. Downtown is where the government buildings are.
- [27:55]
Richard
I know Beirut well. I lived there for three years.
- [27:57]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. So close to downtown Beirut, in Beshera, there was an apartment block that basically was attacked. You know, Israel struck it, and it collapsed. The entire apartment block within minutes, gave way.
- [28:11]
Richard
Pancake.
- [28:12]
Yalda Hakim
Extraordinary pictures. Luckily, no casualties because Israel does issue evacuation orders, and people who lived there evacuated and left the building. The people in surrounding buildings also left. Israel claims that there were Hezbollah infrastructure inside the building. Things like gold, for example, they claim was inside the building. So they knocked the building down.
- [28:38]
Richard
Gold bars or gold coins?
- [28:39]
Yalda Hakim
Gold bars. Yeah, gold bars, Gold coins. They said that's what they were looking for. Apparently, they'd be looking for this for years. Another building went down, but it's just minutes away from downtown Beirut, which, you know, is the heart of the city. So what feels different for people this time is usually the strikes are in the southern suburbs of Beirut. Again, an area. Yes. Hezbollah operates from there. Yes. Hassan Nasrallah, their leader, was killed there. But it is also a place where rent is cheap. You know, there are a lot of families who live there. There are schools in there. There's malls in there. There are, you know, restaurants in there, Shisha bars in there. This is a sprawling area of southern Beirut where many people live there. And now hundreds of thousands of people have been affected because they've all been Evacuated. It's a complete ghost town.
- [29:29]
Richard
I want to ask you a question based on the way I'm seeing it from here. So I'm in Tel Aviv at the moment, and in 2024, this would be two years ago, feels like it was two centuries ago. 2024. After leveling Gaza, Israel turns its attention to the north, attacks Hezbollah troops go in, they never leave. It was supposed to be temporary, and the feeling was always that it would be temporary until the Lebanese government could stand up and assert its autonomy, and then the Israeli troops would basically leave and there would be a new birth of Lebanon. That was always the promise that they. That the 2024 war was kind of to do the Lebanese government and the Lebanese people a favor. That's how it was sold. We're going to get rid of Hezbollah for you so that you can stand up on your feet this time. When you listen to what the top Israeli officials are talking about, they're not talking about leaving, they're talking about staying. They're blowing up the bridges over the Latani river, and Israeli minister says that should be Israel's new border. They're sending in more and more ground troops. Is this sense there in Lebanon that what Israel's doing now is not just a war against Hezbollah, but that it is trying to carve off a piece of southern Lebanon, and that the people who are now sleeping in the streets once again might not be able to go back to the south? I saw this extraordinary image of a man from the south bringing all of his farm animals into Beirut. Is the. Is that what it feels like there?
- [31:15]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. There is a level of uncertainty and fear about what Israel is planning. And, you know, I've spoken to government officials over the last few days whilst I've been here, and they have said the president has reached out to Israel, has said, let's start negotiations, let's talk this through, let's use diplomacy. The president, President Aoun, is a former general. Right.
- [31:38]
Richard
Who's called Hezbollah criminal organization.
- [31:41]
Yalda Hakim
Absolutely. And he said that I warned Hezbollah, if you try and attack northern Israel again, they're going to hit you and they're going to hit you hard. So what we need to do is disarm you. You need to stop attacking Israel. You need to stop what you're doing. So there are many Lebanese who are divided on the question of Hezbollah. There's a lot of anger here at Hezbollah for dragging the country back into this conflict. Many are saying to me, for the last 15 months, Israel has been launching airstrikes, you know, on Southern Lebanon. And yet Hezbollah was quiet. They didn't try to avenge the killing of the Lebanese in the south. As soon as the supreme leader is killed, they're back in the mix because they're taking their orders directly from Iran. The decision to enter this war was an Iranian decision. It wasn't a Lebanese decision. It wasn't a Hezbollah decision. And I think what we're seeing this time around. Richard, Richard. Point I really want to make is how targeted the Shia community in this country feels. They feel that, you know, it's not just about Hezbollah. It is about wherever the Shia community is. Here in Beirut in 2024, when the displaced arrived, many people opened their homes. People were taking those who have been displaced into their homes, giving them shelter. There is worry now, though, because if you bring a Shia family into your home, are you suddenly fair game for Israeli targets? And, you know, that has gone through sectarian warfare in the past. So the government, the president, the prime minister, are trying to contain this crisis. There's also an information vacuum from the south. You know, we're seeing these bridges and the infrastructure being completely destroyed. They want to send their ground forces in. They are conducting operations on the ground, but they're moving very slowly. They're launching attacks on certain villages, trying to take over certain villages along the border. But also Hezbollah is, you know, what do they do best? Guerrilla warfare is what they're best at. So they do want to lure in Israeli troops so they can take them on on the ground, not just from the air. And this could turn into a bloody, bloody war.
- [33:56]
Richard
It could easily. I've never understood why Lebanon or the peacemakers who ended this Lebanese civil war decided on this, this sectarian system, a division of power in which, because Lebanon had a terrible civil war during the 80s, lots of different groups involved. We don't have enough time on this podcast, although we should do a podcast about the Lebanese civil war and a whole series on Lebanon. Lebanon is a fascinating country, and I really enjoyed living there. But at the end of the civil war, the agreement was they're going to share power among the different religious faiths. The Christians would get the presidency, The Sunnis would get the prime minister. So the sort of functions of the government. And the Shia would get the speaker of parliament role. That was the division of power. And then you came, and then enter this mix, which was, I think, was always strange, why it should be faith based. Enter this mix, you have Hezbollah, which is a Shia militant group that for many ways really ran the country. And this division is. Was was kind of on paper only. So now you take away Hezbollah. I can imagine the Shias are terribly worried. Well, what about us? They always got the weakest position anyway, if you talk about the president, the prime minister and then the speaker of parliament. So their third share was always kind of the weakest piece, if you will. And then Hezbollah's gone and they're being targeted. There is a possibility you are restirring the sectarian pot in a country that has had a lot of terrible burns and experience of terrible experiences because of that, of people stirring that sectarian pot in a country as fragile as life.
- [35:50]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we need to keep focus on the situation here in Lebanon because there is concern that this is going to turn into a war of attrition and we're going to lose interest in this if Iran and the United States find a way to negotiate out of this mess. But that might not happen here for the Lebanese. So they're incredibly concerned.
- [36:14]
Richard
Yalda, as always, fascinating. This is From Tel Aviv to Beirut, used to be a famous Tom Friedman book, From Beirut to Jerusalem. So we did it in reverse.
- [36:27]
Yalda Hakim
Yes.
- [36:29]
Richard
Great to talk to you, as always. Really enjoyed it. Thank you, everyone. I hope you enjoyed our conversation and we will see you next time.
- [36:53]
Yalda Hakim
As the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening with here's the Scoop, a new podcast from NBC News, with me, your host, Yasmin Vesugian. We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories with NBC News's trusted journal. It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative, bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations that are shaping our world. From the front page to the Zeitgeist. Here's the scoop from NBC News. Listen daily wherever you get your podcasts.