← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Iran's crackdown on so-called Afghan spies
00:29:45
Richard is just back from Iran and tells Yalda what he saw at the Evin prison which Israel bombed. The two also talk about Iran's crackdown on Afghan refugees and undocumented workers in the country, some of whom the Iranian government say were...
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- [00:06]
Richard Engel
I want to present to you, Mr. President, the letter I sent to the Nobel Prize Committee. It's nominating you for the Peace Prize, which is well deserved and you should get it. Thank you very much. This I didn't know, coming from you in particular. This is very meaningful. Thank you very much.
- [00:28]
Yalda Hakim
Eight months on from the collapse of the Assad regime, the UK has officially re established diplomatic relations with the Syrian government.
- [00:38]
Richard Engel
It is rare to hear Israeli soldiers speak openly about their time in Gaza. But after three tours of duty, this reservist says his conscience won't let him stay silent.
- [00:49]
Yalda Hakim
Every commander can choose for himself what he does. So it's kind of like Wild West. Hello, it's me, Yalda, and I'm in London.
- [01:12]
Richard Engel
And me, Richard Engel, and I'm back from Iran and now home in Lisbon.
- [01:16]
Yalda Hakim
So, Richard, you're finally back from all of your travels from Iran. Before that, of course, you were traveling from Ukraine, trying to get to Jerusalem. We met up in Tel Aviv. But so many people have written to us, Richard, asking especially about Iran. One of our listeners sent a question via email. Damian. And Damian's really curious to know what the hotels are like, where you stayed, what the gas stations are like in Iran, what the journey is like. So just talk us through that.
- [01:52]
Richard Engel
So as you. As you mentioned, I started out in Ukraine. We made up with our team, with our fixers, our drivers. We drive hopscotching around through the country, trying to stay out of obvious locations. And then, okay, the Israelis launched this surprise attack, this sneak attack, which I hadn't been expecting. So now I've got a dilemma. I'm in Kyiv and I've got to get to the Middle East. And now all flights are grounded. But I eventually got to Mashhad airport, which is along the Afghan border, and then drove from Mashhad to Tehran. Checkpoints. Along the way, we were stopped by the Rev guards at intelligence services, and they went through all our devices. They were very suspicious. Who are these gringos who've just landed at this bizarre airport and are driving through the country with communications equipment? Okay, we had a visa. We managed to get out of it. It was a little bit sensitive at times, but never, never really hostile. We were never made to get on the ground or anything like that. And we got through that, went to Tehran, stay at a small hotel there. And now I just got home.
- [03:02]
Yalda Hakim
As you say, we find ourselves in far away places, away from home. Thank you so much, Damen, for your question. We love getting all of your emails, your questions, your thoughts. Keep sending them to the usual place, the World sky uk. Let's talk a little bit about the situation with Iran because of course, a lot's happened since you've left. I mean, first of all, this 12 day war, you know, that, that was sort of surreal. And then of course, for the sake of survival, you know, the, the Iranian regime sort of thought, well, you know what, we can either do this by antagonizing and continuing to use language like we are going to threaten American bases or we're going to try and take the diplomatic route to get out of this. And it does seem now, even in an interview that the Iranian president recently did with Tucker Carlson.
- [04:05]
Richard Engel
Did you see that interview? It was long and he basically said, president Trump, it's all up to you. You have the power to reshape the Middle East. Don't follow Bibi Netanyahu. He's going to take the region on a path of war and destruction. We're the innocent ones. And you can decide, wow, I saw that interview. That was an interview designed for one person through Tucker to Trump.
- [04:27]
Yalda Hakim
And you know what's interesting about all of this? And I felt the same thing when I interviewed a senior Hamas official in Doha. They speak now directly to Donald Trump. All of these characters have realized that stroking Donald Trump's ego, telling him what he wants to hear, telling him that he is the only person, just as Benjamin Netanyahu had done. Don't forget, Richard, Benjamin Netanyahu has attempted to, to sell what he sold Donald Trump to at least four presidents. Donald Trump did for Benjamin Netanyahu what the other four presidents didn't do. Even, even Trump the first time round tried in some way to sort of negotiate and didn't go down the bombing path. So for the Iranians now and for the Iranian leadership, they are speaking directly to Donald Trump.
- [05:13]
Richard Engel
That's what the Iranian president was doing. Say you were so powerful or you, the American president is so powerful, he could solve this. Just don't listen to Israel. That was his main message. 45 minute interview with.
- [05:25]
Yalda Hakim
Would you dispute that?
- [05:26]
Richard Engel
I mean, frankly, I thought it was very shrewd. I thought he came off very well, actually. I thought the Iranian president sort of came off, as you're saying, calm. He said, we're not threatening anybody. We didn't start a war. We were just sitting there and we were attacked in a surprise attack and our troops were killed in their barracks and civilians were killed too. We didn't start this one. So don't get all angry with us.
- [05:47]
Yalda Hakim
For all of the criticism of the United States. At the end of the day, whether it's the Ukrainians, whether it's the Iranians, whether it's Hamas, whether it's the Israelis they need the President of the United States can put pressure on the Israelis, can put pressure on the Iranians. And frankly, right now we've got Benjamin Netanyahu sitting in Washington D.C. for the next few days with Donald Trump saying, listen, sit here and until you don't come up with something that, you know, I'm happy with in terms of a ceasefire in Gaza, I'm basically not going to stand on a podium and give you the platform. You can meet my Secretary of State, you can meet my special envoy, I can go to dinner with you and we can talk about all of these things. But I need you at the end of this week to come up with some kind of deal. What we saw Donald Trump do over the 12 day war means that the Iranians are now coming back and saying, Donald Trump, help us resolve this. We saw him make that, you know, that, that trip to the Middle east where we had all of the Gulf leaders basically kiss the ring and say, how much money do do you want? What do you want? And we'll appease you. And we're now seeing the Iranians through this interview with Tucker Carlson spe directly to Donald Trump and trying to do what Benjamin Netanyahu has been so brilliant at doing for so long.
- [07:07]
Richard Engel
Look, the US Is maybe in decline, maybe this is the end of our empire, but the United States right now is the Roman empire. English is the lingua franca. And Trump is playing Caesar and they have no choice but to deal with him. This attack wouldn't have happened unless President Trump said, okay, do it, and here's our giant bunker busters to knock out these sites. Yeah.
- [07:29]
Yalda Hakim
And we have to sort of, I think, keep an eye on the situation in Iran and how the Iranian people and public now react once the dust settles, once they, you know, assess what's happened in their country. You talked a lot about the fact that last week when we spoke that Iranians are in a state of shock. They're coming to terms with this 12 day war. And we talked about the fact that they haven't seen this kind of bombing since, you know, the 1980s during the Iran Iraq war. So for, for Iranians, they haven't seen this level of bombardment, they haven't seen this level of death and destruction. So we'll have to wait and see. Richard, what first of all, the Iranians do next in terms of now that the dust settles after a few weeks, whether they do mobilize against the regime, there are a lot of Iranians asking, where is the Revolutionary Guard? They were out here, you know, rounding up teenage girls when they were protesting against the hijab and the killing of Mahsa Amini. Where are they now to protect us against the Israeli bombardment? So these sorts of questions and this level of soul searching I think will take place in Iran.
- [08:37]
Richard Engel
They want changes and they want a better economy and they want, maybe many of them want to get rid of this whole Islamic revolutionary system. But I didn't hear people pining away for the Shah's family members. If anything, this, these strikes may have set back temporarily. I think there's a long tail to this and we don't exactly know when it's going to fully, you know, play itself out and make itself evident. But in the short term, I, I think it's probably harmed those pro democracy movement because there's been a lot of crackdowns, there's been a lot of roundups. The security services were on edge when we were there. There were lots of them and they were evident. You know, we got stopped at this checkpoint. They were Basij there. They were rev Guards. They were intelligence services of every different. From every different agency, and there's quite a few. And they were out and going through cars. And you know who they're looking for? Primarily Afghans. There's this. They're the ones being blamed. They're the ones. And by the way, there's. What is it, 4 million Afghans who are living in Iran, many of them undocumented. You know, they do labor and things like that, and they're the ones being scapegoated that these. So the story in Iran is the Israelis used this vulnerable community, recruited spies and that through this community that doesn't really have attachments to the government, doesn't have loyalty to the government. They were able to infiltrate drones into the country, infiltrate Mossad agents, and that they were a fifth column. That's what they're saying. It could be scapegoating. There could be some truth to it. But they're blaming Afghans and they're rounding them up as fast as they can and unceremoniously just booting them out of the country.
- [10:27]
Yalda Hakim
Hundreds of thousands of Afghans are currently being deported back to Afghanistan. Many of them, Richard, have never known a life in Afghanistan. They were born in Iran, they were educated in Iran. Many of them are part of the fabric of Iranian society, but always treated as second Class citizens in Iran, even those who, you know, very much feel part of Iran, more Iranian than Afghan. And as you say, suspicion started to grow around the community during this 12 day war. Now, they were being rounded up and deported before this. And there was a deadline that the Iranian government had placed in early July to try and push out as many as possible. They just sped it up because as you say, they've been scapegoated in this current situation, accused of working for Mossad and spying. Now, I've asked the Israeli intelligence agency senior figures whether there is some truth to that. And they said that there's plenty of Iranians who hate this regime that we can work with. We don't need to tap into a vulnerable community. But who knows? And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle in terms of the Iranian regime and government trying to use this moment to push all these Afghans out and meet their deadline. And who knows who worked for the Israelis inside Iran. But we know that there were thousands of operatives in the country.
- [11:57]
Richard Engel
So you talked about the roundups in Iran. One place where they're not going to be sending people, at least in the very short term, is to the Aveen Prison. So I went there.
- [12:06]
Yalda Hakim
Tell me about this. Actually, this was extraordinary access.
- [12:10]
Richard Engel
Well, they brought us there. So it's not that I just sort of pushed the door down. There were two reporters in the country. I was there. Dominic from sky was there. He was a great guy, by the way. So it was nice to have one other colleague there. We were the only two. And they brought us in. They meaning things in Iran. On our last trip, remember, I was sort of quite surprised that I had such freedom of mobility and that I could go wherever I want. Still was the case. I still didn't have a minor. I still went and walked around and got coffee. I could still go to a restaurant. I wasn't accompanied. But when we wanted to do something that was sensitive, and now things are much more sensitive, like a building that had been hit or go to the Avin prison, we had to ask specific permission and they would say yes or no. And then we went there and we were escorted around by the guards at the prison. And frankly, I think if that would have been the case almost anywhere in the world, you know, if there's a building or government institution or prison that's been attacked, usually there'd be someone from the facility, unless it's just happened. But Dominic and I show up and the reason they were taking us there, I believe, is that they wanted to show look, the Hospital facility in the prison was hit and they killed, they, the Israelis killed a bunch of families because they did hit during visiting hours on a Monday. And according to multiple guards who were there, lots of people were killed. More than 70 people were killed. And many of them were family members who were at the prison petitioning for their loved ones to be released because it was dangerous. And then lo and behold, bang, they get hit. So they brought us there to show this health clinic that had been hit and other administrative buildings that had been hit. And they didn't really like it. When Dominic airs were saying, well, this is the notorious Aveen prison where human rights activists say all these terrible atrocities have taken place and political prisoners are held. And they let us finish and we did all of our filming and whatever and then they closed it. I don't think they weren't very happy with.
- [14:11]
Yalda Hakim
They're not going to allow journalists to just roam around anything.
- [14:15]
Richard Engel
No, I think we were the last ones because their story is true, that this happened. As far as I could tell, there's blood on the walls. I mean, there were victims there. And in the hospital building, which is destroyed, which was clearly a hospital building, this medical equipment, you know, documents. It was not staged. And so their part of the story is true, but the other part of the story that they might not have been counting as when we, Dominic, I were talking about all the different atrocities that took place in this hellhole is also true as well. So. But it was interesting to get in there. So it's a huge prison complex, much more damaged than I had thought. I thought it was just the door that got blown off.
- [14:57]
Yalda Hakim
That's what we heard.
- [14:58]
Richard Engel
There were lots of buildings that were hit, administrative buildings. The cell blocks themselves apparently were not destroyed. It was mostly administrative things. And some of the gates and this medical facility, as far as we could tell, we were there for maybe two hours in total. But it's, you know, it's interesting to get these kind of access and that's why it's important to go there. Because you're there, they give you an opportunity, you take it, you see what happens. You see what you see on the ground, you get color. Now they're talking about maybe closing down Aveen Prison and moving it to some facility outside of Tehran because it's right in the, in the heart of Tehran. But that was one of the attacks that they, they say caused the most civilian casualties was at that prison.
- [15:46]
Yalda Hakim
Fascinating access, Richard. We're going to go to a break now and when we come back, let's talk A little bit more about Benjamin Netanyahu being in Washington and whether they're going to be able to come up with some kind of ceasefire deal in Gaza.
- [16:02]
Richard Engel
Can we.
- [16:22]
Yalda Hakim
So Richard, as we were reporting and as we've been talking about Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister has made his third visit to Washington to meet with Donald Trump. And, and you know, just in the last few days, I mean, we've seen all sorts of reports coming out of Gaza because whether or not this ceasefire deal is agreed to, and we know that Hamas is currently having indirect talks with Israel in Qatar at the moment and they're trying to get both sides to agree to a 60 day ceasefire. The horrors of what's going on on the ground continue, whether it is people trying to access food and aid through this Gaza humanitarian foundation. We've talked about the controversy surrounding this particular group, an Israeli American Humanitarian Foundation. 170 aid agencies around the world, including the UN have asked for it to be shut down and won't work alongside this particular agency. If you look at the statistics just in mid June, if you look at the number of people killed, you know, I was reading the, the list of the number of people killed to a former IDF spokesperson, you know, 57 people on one day, 56 people on another day, 54 people on another day. So regardless of what the GHF, the Israeli government, Donald Trump says about this particular group, what we have seen is exactly what the UN and some of these aid agencies had predicted and sort of an uptick in, in the violence and the number of people who've been killed as a result of trying to.
- [18:05]
Richard Engel
Get food and to promote your channel a little bit more, the there was a great story just a couple of days ago in which one of these soldiers felt a crisis of conscience after seeing what he saw in Gaza and doing what he did in Gaza, that he blurred his face and spoke on camera. I thought it was an extraordinary moment. I've spoken throughout the course of this conflict to one or two other Israeli soldiers who felt profoundly guilty about what's going on in Gaza. But they're still quite rare. I think we've got that clip.
- [18:42]
Yalda Hakim
I think everything in war kind of messes you up. Every commander can choose for himself what he does. So it's kind of like Wild West. And so some commanders can really decide to do war crimes and do bad things and, and like don't have very consequences of that. So there we are from an IDF soldier who, you know, didn't want to be named and we blurred his Face. But he talks about, you know, how he's feeling about what he's witnessed and what he saw. But it wasn't just the report that we've done, Richard. You know, and this is what I put to the former IDF spokesperson. This isn't just the New York Times or Sky News or the Guardian reporting about this stuff. The flagship Israeli publication, Heretz, also did an investigation around this.
- [19:42]
Richard Engel
It was a devastating story.
- [19:43]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah, I mean, these are Israeli investigative reporters talking about the fact that there is a breakdown in the chain of command within the idf that, you know, they are committing widespread war crimes is what they're accusing.
- [20:00]
Richard Engel
The Haaretz basically said what that soldier said, that they have impunity, they shoot when they want to shoot, they don't shoot when they want to shoot, and they have no consequences. And it was a tough story. And as you say, coming not from the outside or coming from Gaza or Palestinian journalists or even international journalists, this was coming from their own domestic press, super well sourced press.
- [20:25]
Yalda Hakim
And Richard, of course we went to the idf, we got a response from them. And I'm just going to read you a bit of that. It says the IDF operates against military targets and objectives and does not target civilians or civilian objects. Reports and complaints regarding the violation of international law by the IDF are transferred to the relevant authorities responsible for examining exceptional incidents that occurred during the war. And this is exactly what the former IDF spokesperson said to me as well, that this is war, bad things happen in war. We, we have a system, we have a structure to hold those individuals who commit this, these sorts of atrocities to account. And so what he was trying to say was that this isn't a widespread or systematic issue. This is, these are individuals and you know, they will be investigated and held to account.
- [21:19]
Richard Engel
They've been saying something like that from the beginning and we'll see if there will be an accounting. Well, I've heard about these from the beginning of the conflict. Yes, each incident will be investigated and we write these right of applies in every story we do.
- [21:34]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. You know, Richard, it was really interesting because I interviewed the UN Special Rapporteur, Francesca Albanese on my program and she said that these are young men in their early 20s who've been fighting this war for 20 months or so. And this is a moment of reckoning for them because they've seen all sorts of horrors and horrors have been committed against civilian populations and the, they have this attachment to the idf. Every single person has to serve. They see it as a sense of pride serving the IDF and suddenly they're finding themselves in the middle of this war, shooting live rounds at civilian populations, trying to come and get food and aid, you know, to feed their families.
- [22:21]
Richard Engel
So, Yalda, with all of your amazing contacts, what are they telling you? Are we getting to the end of the road here? Because clearly Israel's international reputation is taking a blow. You know, people, Israelis said, we must do this, we must do this. Fine. They agree that they must do this, they're doing this. But their international reputation is definitely suffering as a result. Are they wrapping this up?
- [22:46]
Yalda Hakim
Well, a couple of things. So, first of all, when I spoke to Hamas, they said to me that they had two objectives out of this situation. First, to create a sort of, you know, a breakdown in the political situation within Israel, so that, you know, there would be infighting within Israel. So. So with demonstrations against Netanyahu and the different segments of society having a moment of, you know, not being so, they're.
- [23:15]
Richard Engel
Saying they've accomplished that. One check.
- [23:17]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. So, you know, one of the things their objective was was to create domestic, you know, fragmentation. The other objective that Hamas said it had was for Israel to almost become a pariah state, to be condemned by. By allies and adversaries alike. And they fear that that objective has also been reached. Now, as far as what is wrong with.
- [23:40]
Richard Engel
I mean, come on, this is really. They've sacrificed all of Gaza, Gaza's wiped off the map so they could do two things so they can look really clever, and we've made Israel isolated and we've caused internal problems for Israel that was worth the mass destruction of Gaza.
- [23:57]
Yalda Hakim
And the horrors that we saw after October 7th, whether it was the horrors of October 7th or what's happened to Gaza since, with. With almost 60,000 people dead, you do still hear these Hamas officials saying these sorts of horrifying things. On the other hand, in terms of whether the Israelis believe that this is going to wrap up, we talked about this last week. You know, an Israeli official said to me that he sees this going on for at least 10 years. So whether or not we get some kind of deal now, which is a quick fix, and Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump can say, well, we've reached some kind of ceasefire agreement for 60 days and try and get the hostages out, the big question is, what happens beyond the 60 days? Does Israel, and will Israel be given the right, and will it just continue to strike when it sees fit?
- [24:49]
Richard Engel
Of course it will continue. Of course it will continue. This conflict is so profound. You think it's even any less profound now? After all, that's happened in Gaza. The amount of rage and hate that was there before was already enough to sort of send you into a deep depression. But what is there now is unlike I've ever seen. If you weren't angry before and you lived in Gaza, how are you feeling today? If you've lost all your family members and you've lost your house, you're just gonna sort of roll over and forget all of that. The generation that's grown up in Gaza, of course, this conflict, conflict continues. Can we get a little ceasefire now though, you think? Maybe 60 days? Is that in the offing?
- [25:35]
Yalda Hakim
I, I do think so. I think that, you know, that Benjamin Netanyahu will reluctantly agree to this 60 day ceasefire. And, you know, we have to think about what Benjamin Netanyahu said in January 2024, where he said that we have no intention of permanently occupying Gaza or controlling its civilians. And then of course, when Donald Trump came up with the Gaza Riviera idea, he described as brilliant and said it was a great idea and that he fully supported it. So whether we start to see certain bits of movement in Gaza and the thing that many have feared that it will cause the mass expulsion of the people of Gaza by continuing to make life a living hell there, we'll have to wait and see. But for the time being, I do think that we will reach some kind of ceasefire agreement in the coming days and weeks.
- [26:29]
Richard Engel
I mean, it's almost a biblical conflict again. You know, I've covered a lot of conflicts in the Middle east and I rarely use that term biblical because it's a bit of a cliche. But in this case it was, you know, you had the Israelites smite the Gazans and they were no more. They ruined the Gaza, you know, and whether they deserved it and Hamas provoked the attack, we've discussed that at length, but Gaza's no more. It was a biblical level of destruction that there. So a ceasefire, 60 days, is that going to be enough? You're going to need massive rebuilding, you're going to need all the equipment, all the cement, all the trucks. Are the Israelis going to just swing open the door and allow that kind of personnel and material and experiences to go into Gaza? Seems unlikely. I mean, they don't let journalists in there. They vet each aid worker and then generally sort of give them a hard time when they're trying to get in and out. 60 days to do what, to rebuild Gaza, to get the hostages out, and then what? I still have heard no long term plan about who's supposed to Govern this place how it's supposed to be rebuilt. What about all the sick people? What about all the bodies that are still trapped under the rubble? I haven't heard any kind of credible plan for Gaza other than maybe we'll have a six day pause and then Donald Trump should get the Nobel Peace Prize for it.
- [27:50]
Yalda Hakim
Of course, I feel like they will go back, revert back to the January ceasefire plan phases that they had in terms of, you know, first getting the hostages out and the bodies of the, the dead hostages, allowing some Palestinian prisoners out and then talk of, of the day after. But as you say, what exactly is the day after plan? Well, we'll, we'll be tracking it very closely here.
- [28:14]
Richard Engel
We will. And before I go, we got to get together with the kids again. Can I tell you, go back to the first question that we started about the hardest part of this trip. Trip. So I went over the river and through the woods and back to my house and I opened the door and there was nobody here. My five year old, I'd been on the road, I don't even know what it was, five weeks, something like that. And over lots of different borders. And I opened the door. And normally the best part of traveling is when you come home and you hear the pattering of the feet and daddy and it's great. It's my favorite thing in the world. I opened the door this time. Nobody, no Mary, no Theo. They're visiting grandparents in the States, which is lovely and I'm glad to do it. But selfishly, jealously, I was like, man, nobody here. So it's great to see you look at the company.
- [29:05]
Yalda Hakim
Likewise. And you will see them next week and I'll see you as well, you and Mary, next week. And I look forward to it.
- [29:11]
Richard Engel
I'm looking forward to it. Can't wait.
- [29:12]
Yalda Hakim
Thank you so much to our listeners as always for listening. Send us your thoughts to the usual place the world sky.uk we love getting all of your questions so keep sending them through. Richard, really nice to see you and speak to you and thank you so much to our listeners for listening.
- [29:29]
Richard Engel
Thank you very much and until next time, Yola.