← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Is Hamas ready to give up Gaza?
00:24:13
Could civil war be about to erupt in Gaza? As all the remaining living hostages taken by Hamas on October 7, 2023, are freed, and almost 2,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israel are released, Yalda and Richard are in Tel Aviv to debrief on a momentous...
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, listeners. We love making this podcast, and we're always looking at ways to make it even better. We'd really appreciate it if you could take a couple of minutes to fill out our short survey and you'll find the link in the episode description.
- [00:14]
B
Hello, it's me, Yalda, and I'm in Tel Aviv.
- [00:17]
A
And me, Richard, and I am also in Tel Aviv, but unfortunately, this time we're not in the same room. Just couldn't make it happen. Things have been happening so quickly. I'm actually in the back of a car moving from location to location. President Trump says it's a historic day. We'll see. Can't wait to break it all down.
- [00:37]
B
Yeah, absolutely, Richard. So many things have happened. The hostages have been released. Palestinian detainees have been released. Donald Trump arrived here in Israel and then gone to the leaders summit in Egypt. So we're going to wrap all that up for you. But it has been truly a remarkable day.
- [00:54]
A
And Yalda, you've had this extraordinary interview, the first one with a senior Hamas official talking about the future of the organization. So we're going to get into that, too. And everyone out there, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts. If you like to watch us, watch us on YouTube. And let's get going. This is the historic dawn of a new Middle East. Today, the skies are calm, the guns are silent, the sirens are still, and the sun rises on a holy land that is finally at peace. A land and a region that will live, God willing, in peace for all eternity.
- [01:48]
B
Donald Trump is the greatest friend that the state of Israel has ever had in the White House. So, Richard, both of us have been in Hostages Square in Tel Aviv for most of the day. And this is really the place where the families of the hostages, those hostages who have been released in other deals, their friends, many Israelis who have been connected or not connected, gathered night after night since October 7, demanding their loved ones be returned and ensuring the. The world didn't forget about them. They became one big community. And both of us have spent most of the day here. It felt like the place to be in, in the moment because, of course, there were these huge screens where we were seeing the day's events play out. And, you know, really fascinating, this clock that's been there right from the beginning, counting the. The number of hours, minutes, days that the hostages were in Gaza. And it stopped at 738 days.
- [02:56]
A
It was, and it continues to be a joyous atmosphere here in Hostage Square for two years. As you said, this is a place of. Of sorrow. Of solidarity, of remembrance. Because things for two years, they've had, as you know, Yalda, one message, bring them home now. And now they are home. It started off pretty smoothly. About six, seven o' clock in the morning, eight o' clock in the morning, the first batch came out. Seven hostages. And immediately we could tell that this was different. And everyone was watching on the screen as Hamas was bringing them to the Red Cross. And in previous hostage handovers, there was all that propaganda, and they handed out gifts as if the hostages had been in some sort of birthday party. And very offensive tributes that bothered a lot of people around the world. None of that this time, just the opposite. And this is an image that I think I will never forget. As the hostages were being brought out to be handed over to the Red Cross, Hamas put them on the phone or let them talk on the phone in a video call with their own families. And those images were broadcast on the screens here. So you saw a hostage that were still being held by Hamas talking to his mother or his father, and there were 20 men who got out. And behind them as they were talking to their parents were the masked Hamas gunmen. So an incredible scene. So instead of putting them up on the stage, they allowed them to have this communication with their parents to say, we're coming, we're on our way. And it all happened right before this noon deadline when Air Force One touched down.
- [04:45]
B
Yeah, that was quite a split screen. But. But, Richard, if I just go back to what you just said about the Hamas militants coming out and bringing these hostages, handing them over to the Red Cross, what it said to me was, there is no power vacuum in Gaza. Up until now, it's been the idf. They've pulled. And what we have is we've basically gone back to October 6, 2023, when Hamas have been policing the streets and maintaining the law and order in Gaza. Except this time we have a demolition site there and tens of thousands of people killed. I mean, I think what was clear is that no matter how much death and destruction we've seen over the course of the last two years, the truth is that Benjamin Netanyahu said the victory for Israel would look like Hamas completely gone, completely destroyed. And that just frankly, hasn't happened. They're there, they're very much present. They're very much controlling and policing Gaza, and they very comfortably brought out the hostages, handed them over to the Red Cross, and of course, as you say, the Red Cross passed them on to the Israeli forces. So I think that, to me, was one of the images of the day, seeing the masked Hamas gunmen, the military wing of Hamas, coming out into these jeeps and handing the hostages over, I thought that was quite an extraordinary scene. All whilst Donald Trump was touching down and being greeted by Israeli officials. Donald Trump is a man who understands the importance of images. He knows the optics and he really was in his element, essentially, and knowing that as he touched down, the hostages.
- [06:38]
A
Were also being released and what optics these were. So just at noon, he was a little bit late, but. And it didn't exactly coincide, but the hostages came out, Air Force One touched down. Then President Trump goes to the Israeli Parliament, the Knesset, sees some hostage families and then goes in and he gets a thunderous applause, standing ovations. He was complimenting Prime Minister Netanyahu. Prime Minister Netanyahu called him the greatest friend that Israel had ever had. He spoke for over an hour about broader peace in the Middle east. And the people here in Hostage Square were celebrating him, but not Prime Minister Netanyahu. If you remember, on that big screen, they broadcast every moment of Trump's speech and everyone was rapt attention and they were applauding and they were waving American flags. But they didn't air Prime Minister Netanyahu's speech here because he's not popular among this crowd, not here in Tel Aviv. They were just showing clips of families reuniting, families hugging each other, playing lots of music, celebrating the return. And they only went live to the speech once Trump was at the podium also, I think indicative.
- [07:52]
B
Yeah. And I think, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu hasn't gone to some of the kibbutzims where these incidents happened, where these terrorist attacks took place on October 7th. Two years on, he hasn't visited. And when those demonstrations were taking place in the last week or so, where people were demanding the ceasefire here in Israel, Donald Trump tweeted out about it. He put a. A picture of it on his Truth Social account that frankly, went everywhere. And when I spoke to one of the hostage families, they said, we made sure that, that Donald Trump saw that and he was aware of what we were doing. I mean, they really did want to welcome him, you know, to a hero's welcome. They very much see him as the centerpiece of, of this ceasefire. So no surprises that they didn't broadcast Benjamin Netanyahu's speech. And frankly, amongst the hostage families, he isn't very popular at all. And they wanted to ensure that Donald Trump understood that. They have a great deal of appreciation for him.
- [08:54]
A
And, of course, we need to talk about what's going on in Gaza because while this, for this moment was a sense of closure for many Israelis, they are now hope that the war is over. And President Trump is like, this is now a way for us to start a new chapter of peace for the all across the Middle East. For Gazans, the tough part or a new tough part is just beginning. Yes, the bombs may have stopped falling, but they are still homeless. They are still living on a pile of rubble. And as you mentioned, there's still plenty of Hamas around. Should we take a break and then talk about Gaza on the back end?
- [09:30]
B
Yeah, let's go for it.
- [09:31]
A
And Yalda, I want to hear more about that extraordinary interview with this senior Hamas official about how he sees Gaza and how he sees Hamas in the future.
- [09:43]
B
Welcome back. We've been talking about the release of the hostages, Donald Trump's trip here to Israel and of course, all eyes now on the situation in Gaza. Donald Trump continued to be asked this week whether the war really was over. He was asked on Air Force One as he made his way to Israel. He was asked as he walked through the Knesset building, war is over.
- [10:09]
A
The war is over. Okay. Do you understand that?
- [10:12]
B
Even in his speech at the Knesset, Donald Trump looked at Benjamin Netanyahu and he said, you know, he's not the easiest guy in the world to deal with, but now it's time to work with regional partners to work with trying to create a situation. He didn't necessarily say two state solution, but he did say that the time has come to rebuild. This is very much such a massive U turn for Donald Trump. Don't forget just a few months ago he was talking about, you know, the Riviera of the Middle east and moving the Palestinian people out of Gaza. People were accusing Israel and the U.S. administration of Ethnic cleansing. And suddenly he's is become almost as conventional as any other US President where he's talking about the need for stability, for peace and for a place for the Palestinian people that is their own and that is not outside of Gaza and the West Bank.
- [11:08]
A
He also was talking about Iran and he was saying that he wants a peace deal with Iran. And the message seemed clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu, don't attack. And you know, many Iranians, I was in Iran quite a bit over the summer during the, during the 12 Day War and Paul for it. And Iranians are very worried that there is still unfinished business that Prime Minister Netanyahu potentially with the United States that is going to attack again, that there'll be another round of fighting and still could happen. But President Trump said he doesn't want it. He doesn't believe that they're enriching their uranium again. He says, let's move on. Let's build on this, spread peace and come up with more peace deals. That was the main message. So it was a mission accomplished kind of speech. It was well received. Here there is the sense that hostage families are still waiting for some remains. But tonight there is a, there's, there are celebrations here that the war is over. But in Gaza, they feel like a new chapter is, is just beginning. You know, we, we've been looking at all these horrendous pictures of Gaza, which, and we're getting more clear pictures now that the Israeli forces have pulled back. And I've watched people picking through the rubble and people have asked me, and I've been thinking about it, they know the house is destroyed. What are they really looking for? And they're looking one, they came there to see if the house was still standing. And then those who found the house isn't standing in some cases, they're looking for remains of loved ones who might be buried under there, or they're just looking for simple things like wood to burn or cloth that they can make an improvised shelter out of or a tarp because winter is coming. They're just looking for any kind of scrap that they can use because they are still homeless and they know they're going to be homeless for a long time to come. So Israel tonight celebrating a new page. We got them all back. Now it's going to open the door to peace across the Middle East. In Gaza, it's hard to imagine that people are celebrating very much because you're standing on a pile of rubble. And what is there to celebrate?
- [13:17]
B
Yeah. And Richard, something more sinister developing, of course, because we've heard about these criminal gangs, these militia groups, these families of thugs who've been looting the aid convoys. We've heard about the infighting between these groups and Hamas. And now that's come again to the surface just in the last 24 hours. We've heard about, you know, gun battles between these militia groups and Hamas. And just a bit of news. The Hamas official in Doha who I interviewed and I asked him a range of questions, and we can talk about that in a moment. His son was killed in one of those gun battles, you know, internal gun battles in Gaza. And this just makes you realize that actually, you know, what we could see is a situation, not just the death and destruction and the civilian population of Gaza dealing with the aftermath of this War, but actually this power struggle, which could frankly lead to a civil war, because we know when there is this level of bloodshed in a place when there is no law and order, when there is a vacuum of that, then what happens is it creates anarchy. And we know that these militia groups exist. We know external forces are funding some of these groups to take on the likes of Hamas. So not only did I get news that that Hamas official's son was killed in one of these battles, we heard about the public executions in the center of Gaza and Hamas trying to exert its authority over the Gaza Strip again. So this is a reality now that the Palestinian people have to deal with.
- [15:03]
A
So Dr. Bassem Naim, who is a senior Hamas official, member of their political bureau, he's somebody who does talk to journalists, but timing is everything. And you got him to talk about the future of Hamas.
- [15:18]
B
Just to be clear that the Trump plan does say that Hamas will have no role in governing the future of Gaza. So you can confirm then that your role as Hamas is over.
- [15:32]
C
Look, Yalda and I have to be honest with you and with your audience and I have always been very open and frank in answering questions. Therefore, yes, we are ready to hand over the government. We are ready to be totally away from any government or governing body. But when it comes to Hamas as an entity, as a Palestinian liberation movement, I think no one can overcome or exclude Hamas. Hamas is also present in the West Bank. Hamas is present in Jerusalem, in the diaspora. Therefore, Hamas is not only the government in Gaza. And therefore, yes, we are ready to leave the government for a Palestinian body, but we are still there on the ground. What we have said many times.
- [16:22]
B
So just to be clear, though, weapons.
- [16:26]
C
Are going to be handed over only to the hands of a Palestinian state, and our fighters can be integrated into the Palestinian national army before that. No one has the right to deny us the right to resist the occupation by all means.
- [16:44]
B
So there you have it, Richard. You know, this whole idea of demilitarizing Hamas, we've talked about it a lot on this podcast. It's one of the main points of the 20 point peace plan. And Dr. Bassem Nain said to me, absolutely not at this point in time. We're still negotiating this point only to.
- [17:03]
A
A future Palestinian state, not talking about some transitional authority, not talking about this international peace force, the Board of peace that Trump is calling it, and that he signed this agreement. He didn't say, we'll hand over our weapons now that this agreement has been signed. And there's this board of Peace and that there's a ceasefire. No, no, we'll hand them over to Palestinians when there's a Palestinian state and we will become a unit or part of that future army. That does not sound encouraging to my ears, anyway, that we're going to have imminent peace and quiet in the next months, Days, years.
- [17:41]
B
Yeah. And what I've been told, Richard, is that the first phase, which we know what it is, hostages out, Palestinian detainees out, a ceasefire that holds, and aid flowing into Gaza now seems like the easy task. It phase two and three, they're still negotiating. So when he says to me that he's still up for negotiation, he's actually being truthful. But it is going to be incredibly difficult when you are dealing with groups like Hamas, when you are dealing with. Benjamin Netanyahu, frankly, didn't want the war to come to an end. He felt the pressure of Donald Trump.
- [18:16]
A
In the end, felt a lot of pressure. And even people who don't like Donald Trump. I spoke with Gershon Baskin. He's an old hand at this. He's one of the. He key interlocutors with Hamas. He's an Israeli academic, but has close relations with Hamas, and he helped broker this deal. He personally was on the phone with Witkoff in the end and helped got it over the line. And he told me he's not a Trump fan. That's not his style. If he wouldn't have voted for him, it's not his. Doesn't like him. But he said, you gotta give him credit. Without him, it wouldn't have gotten over the line because he thinks Netanyahu would never have signed it. And he thinks the only. He told me the only way that Hamas ever agreed to this deal in the first place was when he told them, don't think about negotiating with Prime Minister Netanyahu. If you're negotiating with Prime Minister Netanyahu, you're never gonna get there. Imagine you're talking to the Americans now, because that's the only one. That's the only side that matters, and that's how we got here. But the question is, President Trump got here, he got the standing ovation, he went to Egypt, got another one. Sounded to him like he was saying, job well done, everyone. Now let's keep going.
- [19:31]
B
So, Richard, before we go, just your assessment on whether you think this ceasefire, this peace deal is going to get off the ground when it comes to the other phases and whether you think it's going to last.
- [19:45]
A
I think we're. I mean, we're now moving into Phase two. But there's still this issue of the bodies and they have some time. Israel's given Hamas a few more days to find and collect all the bodies, but then says if you don't find them, we're going to come and look for them. That's one that's quite ominous. If Israeli special forces are going in there, going house to house searching for bodies, we're going to have an issue. The Israeli troops are still in Gaza and when you have troops there, they're going to be magnets for firefights from Hamas or from some other group. You have Hamas settling scores with these supposed collaborators who are working with Israel and hoarding food. So there's a settling of scores. So there will be challenges along the way and there will be challenges soon. I don't know how far we're going to get on this plan. I don't at this stage see this ending well, this holding with this current government. Because the Palestinians want a state at the end of this. They want a state that is united with the west bank, has some connection to Jerusalem. They want it to be Jerusalem with its capital. And the Israelis don't want that. Prime Minister Netanyahu has said it, it's clear as day it'll never happen. So as long as you have these two vastly competing visions of the future, people who want state to live a life like the two of us, if that's what the Palestinians want. And Israel is far more concerned about security, containing Hamas and not ever having an October 7th again. So when you have these two competing visions, I worry about what the end result is because they're both painting different pictures.
- [21:32]
B
Yeah, I believe, Richard, that only a Donald Trump could have gotten something like this over the line just in terms of the, the unorthodox way in which he operates. So whether that's a having his, an old friend Steve Witkoff, a real estate man coming in and negotiating with these war insides and parties and putting pressure on them, having his son in law involved. And then when you look at Hamas and these sorts of Islamist groups, they can either be bloodthirsty terrorists or they can be incredibly pragmatic. And the choice now is on them. Which are they going to choose to do? We saw it in Syria with Ahmed Al Sharar, who was, you know, someone who was a terrorist. He has American blood on his hands and yet we saw him at the UN General assembly sitting alongside the general who had ordered his killing, where, you know, the aim of the game was to try and take out as many people or men from the other side, from the opposing side, they were enemies. And yet Ahmad Al Shirra, for however dysfunctional Syria has become since he's taken over, was able to be pragmatic when it came to his own survival. And I wonder if Hamas is having a moment in this sort of point where it's completely destroyed, where it thinks we need to survive and in order to see another day we need to change tact and whether that is, you know, meshing itself within some kind of Palestinian run group eventually and being part of some kind of coalition or, you know, slowly realizing that they need to be in the shadows and hence agreeing to no longer govern but not disarm. So a lot to keep an eye on.
- [23:24]
A
And Yalda, we've been bad. We didn't do any listener questions. I like them. Things have just been developing too quickly. But it doesn't mean that we don't read them. Please keep sending them in. We want them. Theworldky.uk and I promise next time we're going to address a whole bunch of them.
- [23:41]
B
Yeah. Richard, thank you. Always really great to chat. Even though we're in the same city, we can't see each other because we're so busy. But just to our listeners, a reminder, we do have a survey linked in the the show notes. If you have any thoughts about this. As Richard was saying about the podcast, we'd love to hear from you.
- [24:00]
A
Until next time.
- [24:01]
B
Until next time, Richard. And thank you so much to our listeners for listening.