← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Loading summary
Transcript61 lines
- [00:03]
A
Sky News, the full story first.
- [00:16]
B
Hello, it's me, Richard, in Lisbon.
- [00:18]
A
And me, Galda in London. Welcome to the world podcast.
- [00:24]
B
We want Europe to be strong. We believe that Europe must survive. In the era of great power rivalry. Even the United States will not be.
- [00:40]
A
Powerful enough to go it alone.
- [00:48]
B
What are you expecting from these Iran talks in Geneva tomorrow?
- [00:51]
A
So I'll be involved in those talks.
- [00:55]
B
Indirectly, and they'll be very important, and we'll see what can happen.
- [01:04]
A
So, Richard, it's been a couple of weeks since we last spoke on the podcast the last time you were in Tehran. And just as you were telling me, the connection was really good, given the blackout and Internet outage you cut out. Just tell me how you are since we last spoke.
- [01:21]
B
Yeah, celebrating too soon. A classic mistake. So, yeah, I was in the back of that van and it was working. And we were getting this little bit of Internet signal out of Tehran, Iran. Fascinating trip. I can definitely update you on that. And then, of course, the comms cut off. So we'll. I'll tell you what I didn't get a chance to tell you from Tehran, especially now with there's indirect talks between Iran and the United States underway in Geneva. Iran's foreign minister has said that the guiding principles have been agreed on, while President Trump is saying that regime change is the best thing that could happen for the country. And Iran's supreme leader is threatening to sink American warships. So what is really going on on there?
- [02:03]
A
Yeah. And, Richard, I want to also talk about the protests that we've been seeing around the world in support of the demonstrators in Iran in support of Reza Pahlavi, of course. He is the. The last shah of Iran's son and the man that many want. Many outside of the country and some inside the country want to lead Iran if there is regime change in the country. He was one of the big names at the Munich Security Conference this year, which took place last weekend. I also want to talk about the United States and their presence at the Munich Security Conference. It's obviously something that you and I have been to in the past. I was there last year when J.D. vance took on quite an aggressive tone with European allies. Marco Rubio took sort of more reassuring tone this year. But let's talk a little bit about whether the messaging was very different to J.D. vance's, so we'll get into that as well.
- [03:08]
B
Yeah. This administration seems to love beating up on the Europeans. It's his favorite thing to do. As always, please follow us on Spotify or Apple and watch us on YouTube. We've just hit 20,000 subscribers. Yalda, which is, you know, it's growing, it's getting there, which is amazing and hopefully it is just the beginning and we want to keep, keep going up and getting more people engaged. So go and subscribe and you can see us there too.
- [03:32]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And you can write to us. Usual place the world@sky.uk so let's get going.
- [03:47]
B
Y Before we get going too much into Iran and the United States and the Europeans and the MUIC Security Conference, I just want to mention a story that is very close to our network, our friend BC News. As you know and as our listeners know that major American television network and is close to me personally. You may have heard of what happened to Savannah Guthrie and particularly her mother. Now Savannah is the host of our flagship morning show. She's in every American household every morning. And a few weeks ago right now, as probably you've heard and many people have heard, her mother was kidnapped in the middle of the night under very terrifying and mysterious circumstances. And she's, she's wonderful. I know Savannah personally. She's been a good friend of mine for, for years. When my late son Henry was sick, she was an amazing supporter. She was donated personally, quite a bit of money to the research. She's always someone who I would exchange messages with before being on her show. Just last minute, you know, passing last minute bits of information so that we could do our, make our segments better. This is a really good person, a good, wonderful, caring journalist and individual. And you know, sometimes you see people on TV and in these horrible circumstances, you think, oh, what are they really like? I know she's one of the nicest people I know and is going through this horrendous tragedy, prolonged agony. And I just wanted to say, as someone who knows her, just to say a little bit of support and tell our listeners, this is a really good person. This is something terrible and hopefully it gets resolved quickly because it is a terrible tragedy for, for her, for, for our network, for a lot of people in the United States are experiencing this pain vicariously. It's. It's terrible.
- [05:48]
A
Yeah, absolutely, Richard. I mean, it really is gut wrenching watching those videos that she's been doing, you know, making an appeal, asking anyone if they've seen anything, talking directly to the abductor of, of her mother. I, I mean, it's just horrifying to watch the ordeal of her and her family. I actually remember, Richard watching that segment she did on Henry with you and you know, you were on the sofa There with her, with your wife Mary. And she was just so warm and thoughtful and you know, equally just very devastated by what you were going through. And you could tell that she is an incredibly warm person. She's also a household name across the United States.
- [06:36]
B
Very, very familia to people. You know, they wake up in the morning, they, they put her and, and the other co hosts on tv, they make their coffee and you know, it's a new show at the top of the show, that Today Today show. But it quickly segments into lifestyle show. As you know, people in the morning, they want to catch up on the latest news but also hear the weather and what's going on and just get a variety of things. So you develop a very close bond with that person because they're, you wake up with them in the morning and they, they give you the head, come on the show and give them some of the headlines that I'm talking about or reporting about and then you spend your morning with her. So it becomes a very close relationship. Many, many Americans feel like it's a member of their own family who's gone missing. And I don't know if you've listened to her statement. She's quite a religious person. She's very much a person of faith.
- [07:28]
A
I wanted to come on and just.
- [07:32]
B
Share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. I just want to say first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt because we believe that somehow, some way she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place. She really does, does believe that. And I think hopefully, or I should say, I don't think, I hope that is giving her some sort of strength and ability to get, get through this terrible tragedy as best she can.
- [08:23]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for sharing that with, with us and our listeners.
- [08:29]
B
Absolutely. I just wanted to mention that before we get into, get into the geopolitics, but should we get into this, we were cut off in Iran. I was in the back of a van and we had pulled off by the side of the road and there were police checkpoints all over the city and police, riot police moving around on motorcycle. They set up these flash checkpoints to make sure that there were no government protests. The Internet had just come on but is controlled. And I got a little bit of a window and then suddenly we lost our, our comms. I don't think it was Deliberate. I don't think anyone shut me down so that they would stop us from doing our podcast. I just think it was very, very weak comms and we kind of got throttled because oddly enough, I had pretty free access there.
- [09:17]
A
Yeah, Richard, just, you know, give us a sense of the mood with people. Were they still very concerned about coming out? We're seeing horrendous images. You people could send material out when they were turning on their starlink, because of course there was an Internet blackout, you know, in the aftermath of all of that. Were shops closed? Were people going about their daily life normally? You know, were there more police on the streets?
- [09:45]
B
So there were more police on the streets, certainly shops. It's a funny thing. So this lasted for, if you remember, there was an economic crisis which is still going on, but there was an economic crisis, a currency collapse specific that precipitated this unrest. People went out on the streets because they were angry because the economy is just not working and Iran is such a closed off country. So I think 90 million people, lots of borders, lots of mountains, huge, vast country that exists kind of as an economic island. It can deal with China to a degree, but that's mostly government to government. The economy can deal with products that get in over the borders, but there's no credit cards, there's no international banking. It's a lot of hard currency. You know, debit cards barely work. If you try and use your local bank card, you can get about $2 a day. $2, the equivalent of $2 a day. So what is that pound and a half a day? You know, you can't even in Tehran, you're not getting very far with a pound and a half a day if that's all you can access from your debit card. So serious economic pain, currency restrictions, black market. That was before this crackdown. So people went out on the streets because of the economic pain and then they were met with violent repression and an Internet shutdown. So I got there just as this was ending. People were just coming out. People were trying to find Internet connections where they could. They were reaching out to relatives. They were scared, very scared. That would, I would say the overall mood. People were kind of like after the rainstorm, you know, they're popping their heads out of the of their windows and out of their doors to sort of see what the world outside looks like. Very timidly, very cautiously. I think that would be the overwhelming sense you got. People were looking out cautiously after a storm to see what, what was, what it was like outside. And the economic crisis remains. So you asked, are shops open? Some of them are open, but some of them are closed. Many of them are closed. Some of them are open. You know, if you want basics, you know, bread and vegetables and meat and chicken and things like that, you can find that. And they're open because people need that kind of thing, you know, every day. But if you're buying things, expensive things, anything like, I don't know, an iPhone or a computer or a piece of something that may have a foreign component in it which had been smuggled in or had already been in the country, forget it. Absolutely outrageously expensive. The, the currency is so messed up that every, people are just waiting. The market is, are basically frozen. So if you want to do a big transaction right now, sell an apartment, buy a car, buy a big piece of equipment, even sort of a time saver like a fridge or something like that, you're probably going to wait if you don't have to because the economy is so, is so unpredictable and hard to deal with.
- [12:51]
A
We're talking about, you know, a, a regime that's, that's lived under economic sanctions for, for more than four decades, which means the general population is punished as well. And that was the crux of these, the beginning of what caused this round of, of demonstrations. And you know, Richard, when, when there is a, an Internet shutdown or a blackout that also impacts the economy because people can't trade, people can't do business. You know, it costs them billions of dollars. And so it's not just about a government crackdown where people are being brutally murdered and killed. You know, a sort of a bloody attack by the security forces. The economy of the country was also badly impacted and set everyone back even even further.
- [13:45]
B
It's, everything depends on the Internet in a country like Tehran, not just interpersonal communications. But we were talking about the currency market outside the Grand Bazaar in Tehran. On most days you would see somebody with a cell phone checking international currency rates and then a huddle of people around him wa. And doing currency exchange. You would see that every single day, almost like a carpet kind of bazaar. Whether somebody rolls out or an animal bazaar where they bring out the sheep and livestock and everyone's, you know, shouting around them, trying to get their, their price and do it, do a deal. Old fashioned market type activity that happened every day in Tehran. And with currency during the Internet shutdown, people didn't even know what the currency should be. So it just locked up and people couldn't communicate. People couldn't, couldn't do business. Everyone just kind of stayed in their houses, cut off while people were being shot outside. Can you imagine how terrifying that is? We're not. Where you people are dying, you don't know. You don't know how many. And the Iranians believe the numbers were considerably higher. The Iranian government official figures are about 3,000. Human rights groups are still trying to compile different death tolls. They range anywhere from seven to the tens of thousands. But if you're shut off, if you're cut off in Iran, you can't do business. You're afraid to go outside. The state TV is on and is telling Blair 247 that it has won. It has won back the streets. It has defeated this terrorist insurgency, which is how they describe it. You can imagine how terrifying that would be and how dependent we've become on the phones. And even though a lot. Elon Musk and Starlink got a lot of attention for breaking this or threatening this Internet blackout and trying to sort of be the shining light that was, that was breaking through it and giving the protesters some freedom of expression, it was very few people that had it. Generally, the, the. The state was able to crack down and was able to crush this protest by throttling the Internet, using force and continuing to exert its authority. It, it's. Its tools of oppression worked despite the Internet units that were sent there and despite the willingness of the protesters to go out and listen to this. Reza Pahlavi's call. But I didn't hear many people talking about him. I never have when I'm in Tehran when these protests happen. You suddenly see his signs. But it's not that you hear his name when you're in private conversations with Iranians. It's just not something. I got the impression that people. He's not someone that people are pining away for. I'm probably going to get flack from his supporters. I'm sure I will. But I didn't get that impression that people were knocking down, dying to come and talk to me and be on camera to talk about the Shah, on or off camera.
- [16:55]
A
So, you know, Richard, if we look at where we are today and where we are now, what we saw was the US President send out a very clear message to these demonstrators saying, help is on the way. You know, we're sending warships where we've got military options on the table. We're looking at everything. It's all on the table. Right. And we heard Reza Pahlavi, the son of the last Shah of Iran, call on these demonstrators to come out onto the streets at 8 o' clock every night and protest. He too, reassured them that help would be, you know, coming soon. And there was this momentum building that there would be some kind of regime change. Of course, all those people who watch Iran closely, regional leaders, said that was not going to happen. This regime was not going to collapse because of pressure from outside. What we have now is the Iranians, the United States, they've just held the second round of indirect talks in Geneva. In Switzerland, we saw Jared Kushner, Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner, of course, the son in law of Donald Trump and his special envoy, Steve Witkoff, hold several rounds of negotiations, one with the Ukrainians and the Russians and then across town with the Iranians indirectly, where they were talking about a potential reaching some kind of nuclear deal. What we've, we're also seeing is, you know, the, the sort of Strait of Hormuz, a crucial trade route shut down because a, Iranians are saying, the Iranian regime, rather, when I say Iranians, I mean the regime is concerned about the US Military buildup because Donald Trump has started to, you know, we're seeing the, the military buildup. He's also sending another aircraft carrier, which we understand will get there in the next weeks. And the regime is also conducting these military drills because they're saying they want to see if their naval fleet is ready for any kind of external threat. That's what the regime is saying. So what we're seeing on the one hand is Iran's top diplomat in Switzerland sending optimistic messages, saying we've reached the guiding principles, the United States is being more realistic about what, what potential talks could look like. And then on the other hand, we've got the Supreme Leader threatening to sink US Ships to the bottom of the ocean, and Donald Trump saying, listen, the last time we were in talks with them, instead of a deal, we sent them B2 bombers. So we're in this precarious situation where it feels like the diplomats are talking, but the leaders are sort of the war of words between them continues. And regionally, everyone sort of seems to have their own agenda.
- [19:51]
B
I spoke to quite a few Iranian officials as well on background at some length about what they're hoping to get out of this talks and sort of what's on the table and what's potentially on the table. The Iranian nuclear deal that was reached under President Obama, which President Trump tore up in his first term, was that jcpoa? What they, what they're trying to deal with now is come up with a new agreement that could avoid war but it's very fuzzy what this agreement is all about, as you mentioned. Is it going to be just a list of principles? Is it going to be a detailed document that's going to try and nail down what this agreement is really about, or is it going to be a set of guiding principles? It's very squishy. And that's different. That's dangerous when you're talking about regime change, war for squishy objectives, and that the best you're going to, you know, come up with to try and avoid it is some list of principles and the warships are on the way. We talked about Chekhov's gun. I'm a big believer in that. When the guns, when the guns came out, they get used. It's always proven to be the case. I've never seen it when that much force is brought out and they're not used. It always happens. But the general idea of these negotiations, as best I can understand it, because the parameters do seem to be changing, is that the Iranians want to talk about the nuclear program. And they say, then they told me we can get to a deal if we're just talking about the nuclear program, enrichment, highly enriched material, who gets to have it, who doesn't get to have it, at which facility, for how long, etc. The Iranians, because they've had a deal like this in the past, saying we can get there, no problem. Not no problem, but we can get there. And we're confident we can get there. But the, the goalposts keep getting wider. So Israel, Israel, the Israeli government, Prime Minister Netanyahu and others have said no, it's not just about the nuclear program. We want to talk about Iran's support for other players in the region, like Hezbollah or Hamas. We want to talk about Iran's missile program and put limits on its missile program. And the Iranian, Iranian officials told me very clearly that that will cause the talks to collapse, that it's no longer just about the nuclear program, that you're trying to make Iran a failed state and that you're trying to take away its means of defending itself, you take away its support for regional proxies, also known as terrorist groups by many definitions, and you try and limit its missiles, that you're basically stripping away its defenses, stripping away its armor, and asking the country to commit suicide. And no country is going to commit suicide. So therefore the deals are, is bound to fail. So the Iranian government is very worried that it's being, being forced into a position where it is going to say no. And then be blamed for it. And their answer is just keep the talks focused on the nuclear program, which is what this was supposed to be about from the beginning. What President Trump says he doesn't want does Iran to have a nuclear weapon and they'll get a deal. But are they going to be presented a deal that they find unacceptable because it is so vague and broad ranging that they find themselves cornered into a conflict, blamed for a conflict that could come, I guess, as this next warship hits the region and when the Israelis finish stocking up their air defenses.
- [23:20]
A
I just want to give you an update on also what regional leaders are telling me about where we're at now and where we're at following the second round of talks. So Israeli security officials, you know, part of the establishment have said to me the winds of war are here in Israel. Things are pessimistic. The Iranian regime and leadership may have come out, you know, the diplomats in Geneva and signaled optimism when it came to the, the talks yesterday and said, you know, we're making progress, whatever progress means or what it looks like. But Israelis are much more pessimistic and they're saying that, you know, this is, this has echoes of June of last year, last summer, just before the, the 12 day war. We're seeing Benjamin Netanyahu make multiple trips to Washington and, and beat his chest and call for war. The security establishment is far more cautious about this, this sort of potential next phase of this operation. But they have said, you know, very clearly that this is deja vu. It feels like we've been here before. I also spoke to Arab leaders in the region who say that things are positive, they're taking more the Iran line. You know, things are looking far more positive despite the military buildup, but there isn't anything tangible yet. And don't forget, Richard, you know, when we, when we think about the, the nuclear deal that was developed in 2015 under the Obama administration, the JCPOA, that was far more detailed and complex and detail driven. You know, it took something like five years to get where they did and they put verifications in place where certainly not seeing the same level of detail. I spoke to one diplomat yesterday, US diplomat who was part of the Obama team and he said to me what the Trump administration is potentially looking at is a Gaza 20 point peace plan. It isn't going to be a multi layered, detailed document. It's going to be a very simplistic approach to the original deal that was made under the Obama administration to basically say it's different to that and we've now got a deal in place. If we get there in the end.
- [25:43]
B
We'Ll head to a break and I want to hear on the backside about how the Shah's son, the presumed leader in opposition of the Iranians, although, as I said, not everyone in Iran accepts his role as the leader in exile. But I want to hear his reception at this, at the Munich Security Conference, when he was rubbing, you know, shoulders and elbows with the, the powerful, the great and the grand. Welcome back to the podcast. So, Yalda, you were back in Munich. Munich. I've been to this Munich Security conference many times before. I've actually. It used to be something of a standing tradition where I would go and interview a senior, senior Iranian official going back years and years. So it's a place that I know well. It's a place you know well. Unlike Davos, which is, let's call it more finance oriented and lots of apres ski, Munich is a lot less fun. The people that tend to go there are political, military, intelligence types. They maybe have great wine and after dinner events. I've never been to one. It's much more business. Catering is not as good. And you were there. And the, the Shah's, the, the late Shah's son, Reza Pahlavi was there, making a big sort of impression on the crowd. How was he received? Was he received as the future savior of Iran? Was he given a giant reception, come and, you know, was he applauded and said, we'll see you in Tehran next, next, next year? How, how was that greeting? What was the mood music?
- [27:37]
A
Well, Richard, I might just break down first, what makes the Munich Security Conference quite unique? Because it's the one conference where you go and you're very much, you know, in the coffee room, in the halls with all the world leaders. You know, once you're in that space inside, you're very much looking over and there's Emmanuel Macron, the French president, you know, standing there without necessarily his security detail and his team and just having a coffee and a conversation with someone. Everyone just kind of walks these halls and you, you're bumping into members of Congress, as you say, diplomats from, you know, the European nations from the United States. And so it's. Everyone is sort of in very close proximity. And I rem. I believe it was last year when Reza Pahlavi was suddenly uninvited. He was sent an invitation and then they sort of withdrew it. And the rumor was that an Iranian delegation was coming and they didn't want him there. So they made a big song and dance about that last year, in the end, I think he was sent the invitation again and he may not have come. But this year, given what has happened in Iran, given the crackdown, as you say, the death toll is anywhere between what we're hearing and what human rights groups are claiming. The regime says 3,000 human rights groups and activists are saying something like they're going as high as 30,000, as you say, in the tens of thousands. But at the conference, Reza Pahlavi, suddenly, you know, the things that he was saying were making news. And I thought he took quite a, I don't know, almost a passive aggressive approach at his press conference. He was grilled by journalists from all over the world who were listening to him and listening and questioning him. And he was pushing back hard about why he was the man to lead the nation. But whether it was in the conversation that he had with CNN's Christian Amanpour or whether it was the press conference he had, there was a lot of sort of pushback and backlash to the sorts of things he was saying.
- [30:01]
B
So it was not just a come, we can't wait until you show up and save Iran.
- [30:06]
A
Not at all. And many people, the critics were saying, you know, from one unelected regime to the son of the late shah who thinks he's just going to come in and be part of some kind of transition. And, you know, there was a lot of criticism that he drew in the way that he approached the press conference, in the way that he approached the conversation with Christiane Amanpour.
- [30:29]
B
What do you mean with the way he approached it? In his tone? You said passive aggressive. What is that? What do you, what does that mean?
- [30:34]
A
Well, his tone was sort of almost quite defensive. You know, he, they were sort of saying, why you, why should you be the one to lead Iran? You know, shouldn't it be down to the Iranian people? He said, are you not hearing the chants in the street? It's interesting what you're saying, meaning their.
- [30:52]
B
Shout, shouting my name.
- [30:53]
A
They're shouting my name. And, and, and you said that, you know, you weren't hearing many people in Iran talk about him. And, and there is no doubt that they were chanting his name during the demonstrations. But I'm, I'm interested and curious in, in hearing your thoughts on that because you're saying actually people in Iran weren't necessarily talking about him. It's perhaps those in the United States and, and, and those on the streets of Europe.
- [31:18]
B
I had people openly coming up to me expressing anger and frustration with the regime, Regime Openly. So it's not that they were afraid to say anything. I had many candid conversations with Iranians where they were angry with their government. They were angry with the brutal crackdown. They were angry with the Internet shutdown. They were frightened by it all. They were angry with the Islamic nature of their government and how it's intrusive into people's. People's lives and how heard accusations of hypocrisy, how the current leaders who wrap themselves in Islamic clothing and ideology, how they are hypocritical. I have many long hours and hours and meals and meals of conversation with many different Iranians from a cross section of society. And I didn't really have anyone to come out and say, you know, what do I really want? I can't wait for the Shah to come back and the Shah's family to come back. I just didn't have that conversation. It didn't have happen Now a lot of times, people during the demonstrations, my understanding and other, other people have said some similar things, is there's so much anger against the government and they know the government hates the Shah. So you insult the government by shouting the Shah's name, we're going to insult you by shouting pro Shah slogans. But I didn't get the sense that people are pining away for the Crown Prince to come back and impose a monarchy upon them.
- [32:54]
A
Senator Lindsey Graham is at the Munich Security Conference every year, and he was sitting in that same room. Christian Amanpour said, you know, Reza Pahlavi is here in the audience. Do you think that he's the right person to lead Iran? And he said simply, no. But then he sort of continued and.
- [33:12]
B
Said, this is Lindsey Graham.
- [33:13]
A
Lindsey Graham said. He continued and he said, it's not for me to decide. Although we are seeing Lindsey Graham on Fox News almost every single very un American.
- [33:23]
B
I thought we were deciding everything these days, openly and unabashedly. Trump, you know, he's, he's running Venezuela. He wants to take Greenland. He wants to determine what kind of government is in Iran, what kind of government isn't. Remake the Middle east, go Gulf of America. Well, it goes on and on.
- [33:40]
A
And Lindsey Graham isn't backward about coming forward, you know, about regime change and, and what needs to take place in Iran. He's been on Fox News every single day, frankly, you know, advising Donald Trump on what to do and, and that the military option should be firmly on the table before anything else.
- [33:57]
B
I mean, don't they realize, I mean, haven't we seen enough that you just you, you pull out a map and you take out a crayon, you decide, you know, you're going to redraw that map based on what suits you this morning. It never works. Well, I've never seen a bomb that drops and does perfect regime change. I know a bomb that's dropping, you know, kills people, but I've never seen a regime change bomb that you just drop it or launch it from an airship and suddenly it collapses. The government brings in a new system, brings in democracy, and it works perfectly well. Force just doesn't do that. You know, it's supposed to be a defensive military. It just doesn't work that way.
- [34:31]
A
Well, that's what regional leaders are now concerned about. And they're saying, listen, you know, let's learn the lessons from, from Iraq. And there's been a lot of backlash for anyone who's come out and, and, and said that. But interestingly, as well, Richard, at the security conference, as I said, Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, also the national security advisor for Donald Trump, led the, the delegation. And I was there last year. I was actually on stage just before JD Vance, the vice president, came on and.
- [35:01]
B
That's right. You often have a spe.
- [35:03]
A
I do. And, you know, J.D. vance attacked European allies in his speech. He left them for the record.
- [35:10]
B
That was last year.
- [35:11]
A
That was last year.
- [35:12]
B
He took a little bit like Trump's tone at Davos, which was, you Europeans are all a bunch of lazy, useless people who, you know, spend most of your time cooking, and we don't, you know, you're going to lose your whole culture. That was his kind of tone.
- [35:24]
A
That was his tone last year. And it left Europeans shocked and, you know, hurt and, and, you know, they didn't quite know how to approach what he was saying. Rubio was much more reassuring and used language that frankly, left those in the audience relieved. The Europeans, in fact, he got a standing ovation. Not because they thought what he was saying was great, but it was a relief.
- [35:48]
B
It wasn't as awful after what JD.
- [35:51]
A
They were worried about, said last year.
- [35:54]
B
We care deeply about your future and ours. And if at times we disagree, our disagreements come from our profound sense of concern about a Europe with which we are connected, not just economically, not just militarily. We are connected spiritually and we are connected culturally. We want Europe to be strong. We believe that Europe must survive because the two great wars of the last century serve for us as history's constant reminder that ultimately, ultimately, our destiny is and will always be intertwined with yours.
- [36:35]
A
But the messaging was ultimately the same. The tone was different. The messaging was very similar. That there is, you know, fissures in, in the transatlantic relationship and the world order as we knew it no longer exists. And that's certainly what the Europeans were saying as well, that that message has been received loud and clear from the Trump administration, from United States. So that was sort of a reoccurring theme of the conference as well.
- [37:05]
B
You have a. Before we go, you have an update on. We talked about Imran Khan in Pakistan, the former cricket hero turned prime minister turned populist who's been arrested and put into solitary confinement in Pakistan. You've heard what's the latest on him? Where is he? What are supporters? They're worried about his health now.
- [37:29]
A
They've been worried about his health for some time, Richard, and in fact, now they're worried about his eye because his lawyer went to see him after weeks and weeks of not being allowed to see him. His family haven't seen him for several months and his lawyer said There was only 15% vision left in his right eye and that he needed urgent medical attention. I've been speaking to his international spokesperson, Zulfi Bukhari, who gave us an update on his health condition on where things stand with Imran Khan now that he needs to be moved to a hospital, but a medical team has been sent into the the jail rather than moving him to a hospital where he can receive the care that that he has, but he remains in solitary confinement. So you can watch that interview I did with Zulfi Buhari on our YouTube page.
- [38:19]
B
So, Yalda, before we go, what were your final impressions this year of Munich? Did they just take these kind of more conciliatory comments from the administration as, you know, just lip service? They're just, you know, doing the best they can given good conference talk, but that doesn't mean anything or. You said that he got a standing ovation because it wasn't as bad as they anticipated. They're trying to encourage this kind of thing. But do you think the is has had the damage been done? Is the break now obvious and wide and clear? And then no matter what these guys say, it's clear to Europeans anyway that, that Trump, Trump and his administration don't, don't respect them, don't care about what they do or say?
- [39:01]
A
Yeah, I think that message is definitely clear. You know, it's interesting, away from Munich, I did an interview with the former chief of MI6 last week and, you know, he's been out of the job for a few months. And I asked him about the fracture in the relationship. And he said as far as intelligence sharing goes, as far as the work that I did and the work that we did with the United States, with the Europeans, that hasn't change. We're still sharing intelligence in the same way that we were before. You know, on that front, it's business as usual. But certainly this fracture that we're seeing between the United States and European allies feels very real. The big question is how much actually gets achieved. You know, when, when you see in Davos that before Donald Trump arrived, it was Greenland and the issues around Greenland and acquiring Greenland, which was the big talking point. And then nothing was really achieved around Ukraine at Davos, which, which is where they wanted to sign a huge aid package and, and deal. Same with Munich. The delegations arrive, the conversations are had. It's what's discussed on the sidelines. It's, it's the conversations that are had on the sidelines or the deals and the, and, and, you know, the discussions that are had that are probably more significant than what actually happens on stage.
- [40:23]
B
And with that, tune in next week and we will talk about out all things Ukraine, among other things, because it's now four years since Vladimir Putin invaded that country. There's been attempts at making a peace deal, all of them so far completely unsuccessful.
- [40:39]
A
Thank you so much to our listeners listening. And Richard, we'll see you in Ukraine next week.
- [40:45]
B
I can't wait. See you soon.
- [40:52]
A
Sam.