Syria: Inside the fall of Assad

Summary

Syria: Inside the Fall of Assad — Detailed Summary

Podcast: The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Host/Authors: Sky News – Yalda Hakim and Richard Engel
Episode Release Date: December 11, 2024

---

1. Introduction and Context of Assad's Fall

In the inaugural episode of "Syria: Inside the Fall of Assad," Sky News’ Yalda Hakim and NBC’s Richard Engel provide an immersive firsthand account of the dramatic and swift collapse of Bashar al-Assad's regime in Damascus, Syria. Filmed from a rooftop in the early morning light of the Syrian capital, the hosts set the stage for a profound exploration of the events that led to the end of nearly half a century of Assad family rule.

Yalda Hakim [00:22]: "It's early morning in the Syrian capital, Damascus. The sun has just risen and it feels on some level like it is a new dawn here in Syria after the toppling of Bashar al Assad's regime just a few days ago."

2. On the Ground Experience in Damascus

a. Initial Reaction and Atmosphere

Upon arriving in Damascus amidst the flurry of rebel advances, Hakim and Engel describe a city alive with both celebration and tension. The ambient sounds include gunshots and the sporadic firing of machine guns, reflecting the ongoing volatility despite the regime’s fall.

Richard Engel [00:41]: "You might hear some ambient noise, you might hear some gunshots because there are still a lot going on here. Uncertain times."

b. Destruction of Assad's Legacy

The physical manifestations of the regime’s collapse are vivid. Posters of both Bashar al-Assad and his father, Hafez al-Assad, have been torn down or destroyed, symbolizing the end of the Assad dynasty’s iron grip on Syria.

Yalda Hakim [07:57]: "There was one poster that they had run over with a car... a man hitting the poster with his shoe. He said, this is the least we can do for what he did to us."

3. Interviews and Insights

a. Interaction with Rebels

Engel recounts interactions with local rebels who present themselves as striving for a humanitarian mission, welcoming refugees returning after years of exile.

Yalda Hakim [07:57]: "We are here on a humanitarian mission. We're welcoming the Syrians who are leaving Syria and returning back to their country after more than a decade of being in exile."

b. Interview with Abu Mohammed al Jalani (Ahmed Al Shara)

A significant highlight is the unexpected interview with Abu Mohammed al Jalani, the charismatic leader of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS). Disguised as Ahmed Al Shara, al Jalani addresses the crowd, promising a new, inclusive Syria under his leadership.

Abu Mohammed al Jalani [17:15]: "You have nothing to fear. We are Syrians first, and we want a Syria for all Syrians."

4. Historical Context and the Assad Regime

Engel provides a brief yet comprehensive overview of the Assad family's authoritarian rule, noting the transition from Hafez al-Assad to his son Bashar. Despite initial hopes that Bashar's Western education might usher in moderation, the onset of the Arab Spring led to brutal crackdowns, including the use of chemical weapons and mass executions, resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths over a decade-long civil war.

Richard Engel [08:37]: "He started a crackdown. The rebels became an enemy. This became a mortal fight for survival. And that's when the mass arrest began. He started to use chemical weapons against his own people."

5. Current Situation and Uncertainty

Despite the absence of Assad, Damascus remains a city fraught with uncertainty. The rapid disintegration of Assad’s forces leaves a power vacuum, with various rebel factions vying for control. The city itself shows minimal structural damage, contrasting with the profound psychological scars borne by its residents.

Richard Engel [11:15]: "It went dark, brutal."

a. Public Sentiment and Trauma

The populace exhibits a mixture of relief and enduring trauma. Many have lost family members to the regime’s brutality, and the sudden shift to rebel control leaves them grappling with fears of renewed violence.

Yalda Hakim [43:00]: "These are people who have been told by a dictator when to breathe, when to eat, when to sleep, how to live. This is how the people here have felt for decades. They have lived in absolute fear."

6. Regional Implications

a. Israeli Intervention

Israel has taken decisive steps to secure its borders and prevent any potential threats emanating from the newly liberated Syria. This includes creating buffer zones, destroying Syrian military assets, and ensuring that chemical weapons facilities are neutralized.

Yalda Hakim [32:47]: "They're moving in to disarm this country, weaken it so that whatever happens here, it is not an international threat."

b. United States and Kurdish Territories

The role of the United States and its support for Kurdish forces in northeastern Syria, particularly in the oil-rich region of Rojava, adds another layer of complexity. Concerns loom over the potential displacement of US-backed Kurds should the new regime push back against foreign influence.

Richard Engel [35:06]: "These are the troops that killed Baghdadi, the former ISIS leader and the sort of the cream of the crop. Very, very, very tough American troops."

c. The Fragile Shia Crescent

The weakening of Iran's influence, once buoyed by alliances with groups like Hezbollah, reshapes the geopolitical landscape of the Middle East. This shift diminishes the traditional Shia influence across the region, raising questions about future power dynamics.

Richard Engel [43:00]: "Hezbollah is now gone. Who would have imagined that? Hezbollah is now effectively removed?"

7. Future Projections for Syria

a. Governance and Sharia Law

HTS, under al Jalani's leadership, has pledged to establish an inclusive government. However, their proclamation to uphold Sharia law introduces uncertainty regarding the rights of minorities and personal freedoms.

Yalda Hakim [40:36]: "We want it to be open for everyone, but under the umbrella of Sharia law."

b. Potential for Renewed Conflict

The intricate mosaic of ethnic and religious groups, combined with external geopolitical interests, sets the stage for potential internal conflicts or a fragmented Syria. The balance between maintaining order and preventing authoritarianism remains precarious.

Richard Engel [41:32]: "If you want to take the negative point of view, you could see perhaps a return of the civil war here."

8. Conclusion and Closing Thoughts

Engel and Hakim reflect on the momentous changes unfolding in Syria, acknowledging both the historical significance and the uncertainties that lie ahead. They emphasize the resilience of the Syrian people while cautioning against oversimplifying the path to peace.

Richard Engel [47:30]: "The hope is that these people can now have a better future, a better life. No more bloodshed, no more brutality. But I’m not sure that that is going to happen anytime soon."

The episode closes with the hosts urging listeners to stay informed and engaged as Syria navigates this critical juncture in its history.

Richard Engel [48:00]: "Keep tuning in and watch us on YouTube and listen to us wherever you get your podcasts and send us more questions."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Yalda Hakim [07:57]: "We are here on a humanitarian mission. We're welcoming the Syrians who are leaving Syria and returning back to their country after more than a decade of being in exile."

• Abu Mohammed al Jalani [17:15]: "We are Syrians first, and we want a Syria for all Syrians."

• Richard Engel [08:37]: "He started a crackdown. The rebels became an enemy. This became a mortal fight for survival."

• Yalda Hakim [43:00]: "These are people who have been told by a dictator when to breathe, when to eat, when to sleep, how to live."

• Richard Engel [47:30]: "No more bloodshed, no more brutality. But I’m not sure that that is going to happen anytime soon."

---

This episode serves as a crucial documentation of a pivotal moment in Syrian history, offering listeners an in-depth analysis backed by direct reporting from the heart of Damascus. Engel and Hakim's collaboration provides a nuanced perspective on the complexities of regime change, the challenges of rebuilding, and the intricate web of regional geopolitics shaping Syria's future.

Transcript

[Yalda Hakim]

My gosh, what is happening over there?

[Richard Engel]

Heavy machine gun.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah.

[Richard Engel]

Well, welcome back to Damascus.

[Yalda Hakim]

Hello and welcome to the world with.

[Richard Engel]

Me, Yalda and me, Richard Engel.

[Yalda Hakim]

Richard, it's so extraordinary. We're here on this rooftop top. It's early morning in the Syrian capital, Damascus. The sun has just risen and it feels on some level like it is a new dawn here in Syria after the toppling of Bashar al Assad's regime just a few days ago.

[Richard Engel]

This is a special show. And yes, we're outside. We're in this extraordinary place at this extraordinary time. So you might hear a little ambient noise, you might hear some gunshots because there are still a lot going on here. Uncertain times. And we're going to talk about what happened here these several extraordinary days that saw Bashar Al Assad's regime toppled. A rebel advance. Who are these rebels? Where is this all going? And of course, thank you all for listening. Keep tuning in, keep watching us on YouTube, and if you have any questions, please write in to the world. And in the background, I think you can hear a little bit of gunshot right now.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, there are a lot of men with guns spread out throughout the city.

[Richard Engel]

Some of it's celebratory. We've seen some of the rebels because there's a curfew imposed here, firing guns in the air to try and clear the streets. So some of it's celebratory. Some of these are warning shots. But these are uncertain times. So let's get started.

[Yalda Hakim]

Let's get started. So, Richard, you have spent years reporting from Syria. You were kidnapped in Syria. You have spent time moving around with different rebel groups.

[Richard Engel]

I was a terrorist. According to the previous government here. I was not allowed to come into Syria. I never thought that, that I was going to be back so soon, but I didn't think I would be coming back to Syria perhaps in my own lifetime, because Bashar al Assad won the civil war. He was winning until he lost. He was, it's like the expression, somebody described it as, like, you know, alive. Alive, alive, dead. Like a banks like Lehman Brothers. It's solvent. Insolvent. Insolvent, broke.

[Yalda Hakim]

And I wonder, though, Richard, did he win or was he just surviving? I mean, I guess that's the question, right? He. And we've seen this in other places. You know, you saw the way the Taliban were able to just move so quickly. Within a week or two in Afghanistan, province after province collapsing. Very similar events here. Within 10 days, the rebels moved from northwestern Syria. They captured Aleppo, then they moved down to Hama Homs. And then suddenly we all woke up. On Sunday morning, you and I were in Doha in Qatar, when the news sort of emerged that the rebels have arrived here in Damascus. Where is Bashar al Assad? He's fled.

[Richard Engel]

Yeah. So it was a strange journey to get here. We were together in Doha. I left and I was on my way to Turkey. On the flight, got word that Bashar al Assad was gone. His whereabouts were still unknown. Landed in Turkey, didn't leave the airport, flew to Beirut.

[Yalda Hakim]

Because you were hoping to go from the northwest.

[Richard Engel]

I thought we would be following the rebels down as they reached the capital, Damascus. I thought we'd be kind of trailing them from behind and then coming in after they had taken the capital. Even then it looked like he was going to go. Instead, he just went suddenly, rapidly disappeared. So flew to Lebanon and then crossed the border from Beirut from Beirut. And it was like, it's an hour and a half. It's nothing to cross from Beirut to here.

[Yalda Hakim]

Tell me about that. Because I came in in the last 24 hours or so, the traffic was flowing. It was quite easy to go past the check point. I mean, there was a sense from a lot of Syrians that, my gosh, we're going back home finally. But just tell me what you were seeing when you first came in.

[Richard Engel]

So we'll start. We'll start from the beginning, right? Let people understand how this has transpired over these last exceptional several days. So I arrived in Beirut as Bashar al Assad was falling. It wasn't quite sure where he was still at this stage, but it was clear that he wasn't here and in charge anymore. Got to the Lebanese border, didn't know what we were going to find at the Lebanese border. There were a few security guards there. They kind of just waved us through, got onto the Syrian side. You know what it's like to cross a land border. There's one countryside, the Lebanese side. Then there's a no man's land in between, like a kind of a militarized zone. Then you get to the Syrian border, and on the Syrian side of this land border, there was nobody there. There were just a couple of rebels, though I say no one from the government. There were a couple of rebels flashing victory signs, the V, the famous V with their fingers, smiling, waved us through. Didn't even ask us to roll down the window, just waved us through. And suddenly we were back in Syria. And then an hour later, we were in Damascus. And on the road in, we saw abandoned government Tanks. We saw kids climbing on top of the tanks. They. We slowed down to kind of roll down the window to look at them and shout out something to them. We were anxious to get to Damascus. And they said, hurry, hurry. Arabic for freedom. Freedom. And people were smashing posters of Bashar al Assad. They were smashing posters of his father, the previous dictator, Hafez al Assad. Together, this family dynasty ruled this country with an iron fist for over half a century. And then we rolled into Damascus and went right to the main square, right down the street from where we are.

[Yalda Hakim]

I think what was striking for me coming in, Richard, was those defaced and torn down posters of Hafiz al Assad, Bashar al Assad. Never would you have been able to imagine. I got out of the car and I spoke to some of those rebels, and I said to them, you know, what are you thinking? Who's running this place? Who are you taking orders from? And they said, no, no, no. We're here on a humanitarian mission. We're welcoming the Syrians who are leaving Syria and returning back to their country after more than a decade of being in exile, living as refugees in squalid conditions and in misery. But never did they imagine. I mean, there was one poster, Richard, that they had run over with a car. And they said they almost wanted to take revenge from the posters themselves. And there was a man hitting the poster with his shoe. And he said, this is the least we can do for what he did to us, for how he brutalized us. And the sense that you get being in Damascus is almost like a young woman yesterday described it to me. She said, it's like Assad had his boot on our chests. We couldn't breathe. That's been lifted. We can breathe again. We can talk. The basic human right of being able to talk.

[Richard Engel]

They have that. And this was a dictatorship. He was thought of as the sort of dictator light initially when he first came into power and took over from his father.

[Yalda Hakim]

He wasn't actually supposed to take over.

[Richard Engel]

Was he supposed to be his older brother who died in a car accident?

[Yalda Hakim]

Correct. But then he was a doctor and he married this Syrian British woman.

[Richard Engel]

Very glamorous, very beautiful, sophisticated. She was sort of a darling of the media. Was she on the COVID of Vogue?

[Yalda Hakim]

She was on the COVID of Vogue just a couple of months before the crackdown. She was described as the desert rose, or the rose of the desert. They had to quickly.

[Richard Engel]

Yeah, that didn't hold up too well.

[Yalda Hakim]

Remove those. You know, those magazines from news agencies across the desert? They Pulled them, because suddenly we're seeing this brutal crackdown of these protesters.

[Richard Engel]

And that's what happened. So he came in. There was hope that, okay, maybe he'd be different from his father. He'd be, you know, a strong man, but with a heart and sophistication. His British education would somehow change him. And initially he did have a bit of an opening. And the first few months were better than his father had been. And there was a sense that, okay, maybe he will be different. Then the Arab Spring happened and there were revolutions in Tunisia and revolutions in Egypt and in Libya. And one started here and in here. That's when everything changed. He started a crackdown. The rebels became an enemy. This became a mortal, a fight for survival. And that's when the mass arrest began. He started to use chemical weapons against his own people. And it became one of the most savage crackdowns that descended into a decade plus of civil war that left hundreds of thousands of people. I'm not sure people know that hundreds of thousands of people died in this country. So when you walk around Damascus now, and I've spent the last several days, as you have been walking around this city, there is a sense of relief. Bashar al Assad, this bastard is gone and the civil war is over. But what's coming next?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, and we'll get to the what's coming next. But you suddenly realize, I mean, we'd heard reports and stories of his brutality, the way that he would crush, literally crush, have machines that crush people in prisons.

[Richard Engel]

I saw one yesterday.

[Yalda Hakim]

Absolutely. And the fact that he had this like deep labyrinth of cells deep underground under the prisons where he would virtually bury people alive, and they were alive even to this day. They're calling out for help. And the rebels who have gone into these prisons and family members can't actually, they don't know where to find these people in the tunnels because they're buried deep. People were disappeared, forced to be disappeared. People went missing. People were buried alive. People were tortured, crushed to death. Brutalized. This regime, as you say, may have started as dictatorship light, but it went on to be incredibly.

[Richard Engel]

It went dark, brutal.

[Yalda Hakim]

I mean, thousands there. There is perhaps no family in Syria that is not impacted by this conflict. Either family members who have been killed or people have been dragged away simply for standing at a demonstration, simply for appearing to be a voice that. That is anti Assad regime. And as you say, they had this brutal crackdown for over five decades just going into the streets yesterday. It's extraordinary how many people. And you would have Experienced this, too. How many people were just coming up to me, grabbing me and saying, I want to tell you my story. I want to tell you thank you for being here.

[Richard Engel]

And there's not a lot of destruction in this city. People think, oh, there was a rebel takeover. The city must be in ruins. I mean, look at it. We're looking at Damascus right now. There are no bullet holes. The war never really came to Damascus. The takeover was, well, there's an explosion. But the takeover was not peaceful, but smooth, rapid. The government just melted away. You don't see the remnants of war. You just see it on the people's faces.

[Yalda Hakim]

People are not just happy that they have freedom, but also coming to terms with the dark reality. You know, on the point of the military, Assad's forces melting away again, another explosion. You know, it's there. There is. You know, after those first few days of celebration, you realize that there are. I mean, it feels like things are starting to shift and change, but just on the point of Assad's forces suddenly melting away. When you're propped up by foreign elements, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, funding, backing, propping up your military, not fighting for a real cause, fighting for a corrupt, brutal dictatorship, suddenly you do melt away. Because the Russians.

[Richard Engel]

Because there was no there there.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. Again, we were in Doha over the weekend, and I met with the Qatari Prime Minister who had just spoken to the Russian Foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, the Iranian foreign minister. He'd spoken to the Saudi foreign minister and a bunch of others, Jordanian Foreign minister. And he said to me, we have now come to terms with the fact that these rebels are going to take over. This was just 12 hours before Damascus fell. That, and the Russians, the Iranians have said, we don't want our bases targeted, we want our personal.

[Richard Engel]

But we're not going to prop this guy up.

[Yalda Hakim]

We're not going to prop this guy up. We are engaged elsewhere. So thank you. We. We helped you, but we don't. We're not going to be here for you.

[Richard Engel]

And without that help from the outside, there was nothing left.

[Yalda Hakim]

Except for a ticket to Moscow.

[Richard Engel]

A ticket to Moscow granted for political asylum. Humanitarian. Excuse me, humanitarian reason. Even worse, even more revolting. Him in the desert rose.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. Off they went.

[Richard Engel]

Off they went, leaving behind their luxury cars and a trail of misery and secret principles.

[Yalda Hakim]

So, Richard, I guess the big question now is what's going to happen next? Because, as you say, the main rebel group that has taken over.

[Richard Engel]

Who are these people?

[Yalda Hakim]

Hayat Tahir.

[Richard Engel]

Everyone keeps asking me, who are these people?

[Yalda Hakim]

Hayat Tahrir Al Sham led by Abu Mohammed al Jalani. He's 42, 43 year old, young guy, born in Saudi Arabia.

[Richard Engel]

Pretty charismatic, good looking, carries himself well.

[Yalda Hakim]

Actually originally from Syria, grew up here in Damascus. Our team, actually, my producer Zayn Jafar came across him yesterday very randomly.

[Richard Engel]

Yeah, we've been asking for an interview with him. And you doorstopped him and got him.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah.

[Richard Engel]

So yesterday, congratulations by the way.

[Yalda Hakim]

Thank you.

[Richard Engel]

That's pretty cool. You know, we're reaching out to his people. We want an interview, come on. And then I said, Sky News just got an interview with him. I said, how did that happen?

[Yalda Hakim]

How did that even happen? Well, I'll tell you, tell you how it happened. So Zane, our international editor was floating around Damascus, driving around, you know, trying to coordinate all the different teams and he said as he was driving along, he said he saw a convoy of about eight cars and one sort of sped up and pulled up in front of him and he thought, oh no, I'm going to get kidnapped again. He's been in this situation himself. And he said suddenly all these men emerged from, from the vehicle and there I saw Giolani emerge from one of the cars.

[Richard Engel]

It was his security detail.

[Yalda Hakim]

It was his security detail. And he said he had about eight pretty tough security rebels with him.

[Richard Engel]

But what's amazing, he didn't just say back off and said let them go by. When these, these hard boys got out of the car, not out of the.

[Yalda Hakim]

Not at all, he jumped out of the car. You know, the team who were with him jumped out and he, he followed. And these blasts are quite low.

[Richard Engel]

It was like this a couple of days ago when the Israelis were bombing. I don't think that's what this is right now, but I mean there's all.

[Yalda Hakim]

Sorts of rumors swirling that the Israeli tanks are closing, closing in, but the Israelis have denied.

[Richard Engel]

You do now hear random gunfire and explosions.

[Yalda Hakim]

That is not always clear loud, that explosion. But just on the story, we'll find.

[Richard Engel]

Out what, what that is, Find out what that is.

[Yalda Hakim]

But, but Jelani. So Zayn sort of followed him and sort of chased after him and he said, we started to film with one of our phones and he said, I went to ask him a question, he said something about, you know, what's your message to Jelani? Yeah, what's your message to the.

[Richard Engel]

I'm saying that's pretty cool that he's just like, oh, by the way, since I'm not being kidnapped right now, I have an idea, let's do an Interview.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. But also, this is a man who has a $10 million bounty on his head. You know, this is a man that is united. He was an Al Qaeda leader, one of Al Qaeda's top leaders. The United States has his group and himself on a terror watch list. So suddenly, he's floating around Damascus. This man in the shadows who was leading this rebel group, suddenly appears at the mosque, his childhood mosque here in Damascus. He reemerges to a small mosque, a.

[Richard Engel]

Small mosque, not the big Umayyad Mosque and one of the historic ones.

[Yalda Hakim]

50 people were at this sermon. And he said the shaykh introduced him not as Abu Mohammed Al Jelani, which is quite interesting. He introduced him not by his nom de guer, his guerrilla rebel name. They introduced him to the 50 people at this sermon as Ahmed Al Shara, which is his original real name. Again, this is a clever guy who's got a very colorful cv. He went from being part of ISIS in Iraq and then forming Al Qaeda here in Syria, the Al Nusra Front, and a branch of ISIS that then is also branch of Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda. He sort of denounced ISIS because he thought they were too brutal. But he. He sort of invited Zain into the mosque and said, this is a big question. What's my response to the international community? Come and listen to the sermon. Zayn said he was incredibly charismatic, that he has presence. You can tell that he is a leader and that people are listening.

[Richard Engel]

So Zayn went in, listened to the.

[Yalda Hakim]

Sermon, and then put some questions to him and said to him, what message do you have for the international community? And he said, you have nothing to fear. The people that we have overthrown, Bashar al Assad, Hezbollah, Iran's grip, these are the groups that you should fear. We are here. We are Syrians first, and we want a Syria for all Syrians.

[Richard Engel]

And he's saying all the right things. Can he be believed is another question. And initially Syrians want to believe him because they went through such a horrible experience. I've seen a couple of these rapid transfers of power, and they go through phases. I was in Baghdad when Saddam Hussein was suddenly overthrown in Iraq in 2003, and there were similar images of defacing the statues and defacing the posters and hitting the statues with shoes to punish the man through his effigy. And initially the. There's this excitement because the brutal. The regime was so awful. And then very quickly, there starts to be expectations and frustration that sets in. In Baghdad, it was like, well, where's the power and what's going on and why can't you people organize things? And we want this and we want that, and we want X, Y and Z. We want justice from the past. I was in Ukraine when Yanukovych was overthrown and Libya when Gaddafi was overthrown. And I can't even remember them all, but this has happened a few times. Each time it does, it's extraordinary. And on the first day, there was this excitement. Day one, celebrations, jubilation, firing in the air. Freedom. We've got it. We can taste it. We've got it. Day two, Day of exploration. They broke into the prisons. They go, they're looking for documents, they're looking for their loved ones.

[Yalda Hakim]

Not a lot of looting, I must say, not much, although they were taking the chairs from the palace.

[Richard Engel]

Some, some. But looting from public buildings, looting from the palaces, but not breaking into people's.

[Yalda Hakim]

Homes, which, by the way, Abu Mohammed Al Jolani, this rebel leader, he put.

[Richard Engel]

A red line on that not one.

[Yalda Hakim]

Bullet is to be fired, although we are hearing.

[Richard Engel]

But not civilians. Shoot them up, not into people.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly.

[Richard Engel]

And then after that, he's even said, don't fire up in the air anymore. So he's saying the right things. He's saying what people want to hear. He's saying that women's rights are going to be protected, that this is going to be a country open for all Syrians of all different religions and ethnic groups. Whether he can be believed or not, we'll get to in a second. But on this day of discovery, and I. I think we're still in that period right now, they're realizing the horrors that they went through. They're going into this secret prison. You mentioned this crush. So the Sayyidina prison was this torture dungeon similar to perhaps Abu Ghraib slaughterhouse. It was described by Amnesty International as a human slaughterhouse. And I went in there and there were thousands of people, families looking for their relatives. They were looking for signs of life that their. The prison had already been liberated. The. The rebels had already broken into the cells and let people out.

[Yalda Hakim]

But some people were so terrified. They'd been in the dark for so.

[Richard Engel]

Long they could barely walk. Some people, I saw them, they'd kind of lost their mind.

[Yalda Hakim]

They were too afraid to. They couldn't remember their names.

[Richard Engel]

Just horrendous conditions. And I could understand why. This was a. This was a slaughterhouse. It was an execution house. It was a death camp. So these families were there. They knew that the prison officially had been emptied and the cells were empty, but they thought maybe There was some underground cell, so they came with sledgehammers and pickaxes and there were a couple of bulldozers and they were breaking into the walls and breaking into the floors, looking desperately, looking for loved ones who were hidden in some subterranean lair. We didn't see any evidence that there is one. But what we did see were all these torture devices. And one was this press, the crushing, the crusher. It was a hydraulic press and prisoners would be put into it and then squeezed. There was a medieval torture that was similar to this, where they would put increasingly heavy stones on top of you until you, your rib cage more or less collapsed. We saw nooses. Some still had blood on them. This was a facility that was being used for execution on a massive scale just until recently. The blood was still wet on this nuisance.

[Yalda Hakim]

There were people who were killed 24 hours before Assad actually fled. They were killing right to the very end.

[Richard Engel]

I thought about those people. Can you imagine? You're in there, the rebels are on the doorstep of the city and you're being executed that day. What kind of human being does that, carries out that execution, knowing it's all over? You look at your watch. We've got one more day or two more days. We're going to do it anyway. You got a rotten hell for that.

[Yalda Hakim]

I mean, it's horrific. I saw images yesterday from one of the reports that we did of mothers just with fresh body bags of their dead sons, saying, I haven't seen my son in over a decade and now I find his body bag still smelling.

[Richard Engel]

Of death, brutal until the last second, and then gone. I saw uniforms. You walk around the streets, you see uniforms that soldiers just took off, dropped on the streets and then they ran. They're either hiding or they left the country, but they didn't stay and fight, but they were executing people right at the end.

[Yalda Hakim]

And I guess that's the big question, isn't it, Richard, that what do these rebel groups? First of all, this is not the victory of while there is one big overarching rebel group, and Jelani has led that into Damascus, but there are still small rebel groups who were part of mobilizing and taking over this country. And those rebel groups are backed and sponsored by different international actors. And that is where things could get potentially tricky because, you know, they are being funded and they're going to want their own share of the pie. Even though Jelani has said, we're going to form this interim government, they went.

[Richard Engel]

Government of national salvation and they went.

[Yalda Hakim]

Got Assad's Prime Minister, my gosh, what is happening over there? Yeah, that's a lot of alcohol.

[Richard Engel]

Heavy machine gun.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah.

[Richard Engel]

Well, welcome back to Damascus.

[Yalda Hakim]

I mean, you know, people rested in the city for a couple of days of just respite, and now there's uncertainty. I mean, what is happening?

[Richard Engel]

This could go wrong very quickly. As I was saying, when that gentleman.

[Yalda Hakim]

Over there is just peering through the window. I mean, just this sense of, yeah.

[Richard Engel]

He'S looking around as we are saying, what is that?

[Yalda Hakim]

What is happening? You can see people opening their curtains. You know, just when they were taking.

[Richard Engel]

A breath because they were saying, maybe we've done it, maybe we've come out of the frying pan, but have we just fallen into the fire now?

[Yalda Hakim]

But you drive around town and you wonder, all these different little checkpoints, who is your leader? Who is running this place? Who are you taking orders from? Is it Giolani? Is it some other group? In the night, suddenly there's a checkpoint that emerges. Who are you reporting to? And we know the murkiness of, you know, the last 14 years. There are different elements and groups across this country, including isis.

[Richard Engel]

So this was a bath party country, right? This was a secular dictatorship that got more and more brutal as the years went by. But it was a like Saddam Hussein's Iraq. It was a secular country. You could drink women. They didn't have an issue with women. They had lots of other issues basically with freedom. But it wasn't the Taliban. It wasn't misogynistic. They hated everybody, men and women. Just don't oppose their government, otherwise you're going to die. But it wasn't an Islamic government. These people who have come in with.

[Yalda Hakim]

A leader describe their stronghold of Idlib in the northwest.

[Richard Engel]

So these people who have come in, yes, Al Julani was a part of Al Qaeda. He was a big fish in the organization. He came here, he formed a faction of Al Qaeda called the Nusra Front, and they fought against isis. They hated ISIS because they were Islamist rivals. They had different interpretations of what it should be. But mostly it was a fight over power. Who could claim the man to power.

[Yalda Hakim]

Even though he was, you know, his mentor was Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, the leader of isis.

[Richard Engel]

But then they, they broke off in the case. As often as the case. You end up hating the person who's sort of most similar to you and your rival. And then he rebranded himself several years ago and said, we are now. Which means the Organization for the Liberation of Sham is like the Levant, the Greater Syria region, Syria, Lebanon. This Part of the world. And they are trying to sort of now claim that they're different, that they're going to be open to everyone. But for the last several years during the civil war, they were ruling in a province called Idlib. So we do have a sense already of how they did govern in this small area that they held. And it was not, they're Islamists. They're Islamists. So women were in black, they, in loose fitting clothing. They, if you killed someone, you were killed. If you stole, you had corporal punishment against you, Islamic law. So it was not, let's call them, democratic ideology that they're, they're not exactly talking about ideology, but it was not necessarily all that they're claiming that they're going to bring here.

[Yalda Hakim]

You know, Jelani, in 2021 after the Taliban takeover, praises the Taliban for the way in which they entered the city and took over the country. But interestingly, in the last few days, the group has also issued a statement saying it is not our duty and it is against Islam to tell women how to dress. Even asking them to dress modestly is something that we are not going to do. It will be interesting though.

[Richard Engel]

Yeah, we'll see if he does it. So because in Idlib, that wasn't the case. In Idlib, women were dressed, you know, encouraged, let's say, to dress modestly. But now maybe he is adapting. The group is pragmatic. So let's give them the benefit of the doubt for a second and then we can, we can say, well, you know, it's easy to be pessimistic. Oh, they're a bunch of extremists and they are, let's talk both sides. So benefit of the doubt. They learned the lesson from the Taliban. People here are nervous, but they have no choice but to try and give them a shot. They are being recognized by Arab states and people are coming into, into this country. Unlike in where they were fleeing, Kabul fell, the Taliban arrived and people were so terrified, they were hanging on to the bottom of a plane, of a plane so desperate to get out that they thought that they could fly. And no one was coming into the country. Here, thousands upon thousands of people are coming back. So there are segments of society here that want to give them a chance, that want a new, a new chapter and want to believe all of the things that he's saying.

[Yalda Hakim]

And as you say, they've learned their lesson and there is a maturity about the way in which they're operating, you know, that they have sort of realized the wrongs of the past. And Jelani, as you say, has rebranded himself.

[Richard Engel]

They're not the Taliban, they're more sophisticated than the Taliban.

[Yalda Hakim]

But it'll be interesting, as you say, whether they are going to try and impose Sharia law across this country. You know, someone asked me the other day, a journalist who hasn't arrived here in Damascus and said, you used to be able to get a beer in Damascus. Is that something you can still do?

[Richard Engel]

You still can today.

[Yalda Hakim]

I wonder if you can do it, do that in a few weeks time.

[Richard Engel]

Or a few months or a few years.

[Yalda Hakim]

Okay, we're just going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and talk about the wider region.

[Richard Engel]

Let's talk about the regional, let's talk about Israel. Let's talk about the regional dynamic here right now. Because they rolled into power, the government faded away. This moment of exploration and uncertainty is going on now. And there's some random gunfire, explosions that you do here in parts of the city. But it's not necessarily a menacing place. It doesn't feel like you're going to go out into the streets and someone is just going to come in and shoot you or kidnap you. But there is still uncertainty. The rebels are still searching for elements of the former regime. So you could see fights emerging because they're looking for certain who they consider war criminals. But the Israelis don't trust them at all. So what the Israelis are doing is creating a buffer zone. They're moving in the Golan Heights, they're taking former positions of the Syrian government and they're destroying heavy weapons, They've destroyed the Syrian navy, they're destroying long range rockets and missiles, they're destroying air defenses. So they're chemical factories, chemical weapons factories. So they're leaving this country unarmed in a way that it can't project power and threaten its neighbors.

[Yalda Hakim]

The Israelis I've spoken to have said to me, we're worried, we're cautiously pessimistic about the situation. When this mobilization by the rebels was taking place, I got in touch with some people within the security establishment of Israel and they said, look, we welcome bad guys killing bad guys. If these rebels want to kill and target Assad regime and overthrow this brutal dictatorship that is propped up by their arch rival and enemy Iran, fine, do that. Kill them, attack them, overthrow them. But don't think that we are not concerned. This began on October 7th. Of course, if you know, you look at the sequence of events, Hamas attacks Israel, takes 200 plus hostages, kills 1200 people. Hezbollah gets involved in the fight, Iran gets Engaged in that, of course, Russia is engaged in Ukraine. So the groups that were backing and supporting, including Hezbollah fighters here in Syria, supporting and fighting alongside Syrian forces, and they got a really bad rap and reputation as a result of that. Hassan Nasrallah was almost across the Arab world criticized for sending Hezbollah forces to fight alongside Assad. Suddenly all that disappears and melts away. So for Israel, they don't trust these rebel groups, but their primary thing is, you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone. So they've moved into Syria.

[Richard Engel]

They're not leaving them alone, not for now.

[Yalda Hakim]

As in, we are going to do what we need to do to ensure that we don't have an October 7th, which is the reason they take capacity.

[Richard Engel]

To carry us, to carry out an.

[Yalda Hakim]

Attack, attack on us. And they've made that very clear that we don't want to have an enemy on our doorstep that could potentially become a problem for us. Different rebel groups, Islamists, the re emergence of ISIS here with chemical weapons, factories, arms, a naval fleet that could become a direct threat to Israel. So you've got the Israel element. And by the way, they're being supported by the United States, the uk, for what they're doing at the moment. So they haven't said exactly how many, but they have launched hundreds of airstrikes on different military facilities at the moment.

[Richard Engel]

Should we take a question? I think there's a question from Judy Alexander from San Diego, California, and she starts off by saying, I'm learning. So much. Interesting and informative. She likes the podcast, which is great. The last few days it appears that factions and country countries are cannibalizing different parts of Syria. How do you imagine the country that was Syria will look in the near future? And what is going to happen with the United States interests, oil or whatever in the area? So we've already talked about what Israel is doing. Israel is moving in to disarm this country, weaken it so that whatever happens here, it is not an international threat. But as you said, the Israelis are not the only actors here. During the course of the civil war, the Kurds carved out their own faction. They have their own mini state called Rojava, which is backed by U.S. forces in northeastern Syria. In northeastern Syria, that is where most of the oil is in this country. There are US troops based there. They are on a counter ISIS mission. They work with the Kurds. So you have a part of the country that is effectively out of Syria's control. It is run by the Americans and run by the Kurds, and they fight against isis. And they have all the oil. So what's going to happen to them? Are they going to be kicked out? Is HTS going to go to war against them? By the way, that would be a tough war because they're backed by US Elite special forces.

[Yalda Hakim]

I mean, for now, Richard, because we've seen, well, we know that Donald Trump, President elect, is just weeks away from coming into office. And I remember in 2019, I think it was maybe October or November when Donald Trump said we're pulling out all the US Forces from northeastern Syria, not our problem. Even though the Kurds had fallen shoulder to shoulder with the United States, led that fight against the so called Islamic State. That gunfire, yes, it's quite extraordinary actually, that it's, it's just playing out. I mean, early morning here in Damascus and for the last hour or so that we've been up here, that has been consistently.

[Richard Engel]

Well, when we're done, we'll have to.

[Yalda Hakim]

Try and figure out, I mean, they always say about journalists, why don't you.

[Richard Engel]

Go, you go, you go first, I'll call your car, you go first, you tell me how it's going.

[Yalda Hakim]

But you know, it's clearly quite close. We can hear it. It's been consistently sort of taking place.

[Richard Engel]

We'll check it out, we'll check it out when we're done.

[Yalda Hakim]

But just on northeastern Syria, as you say, you know, 900 or so US troops based there. We don't know how Donald Trump's going to react.

[Richard Engel]

These are the troops that killed Baghdadi, the former ISIS leader and the sort of the cream of the crop. Very, very, very tough American troops. They're working with the Kurds, who are.

[Yalda Hakim]

Also excellent fighters and by the way, a number of many, many ISIS fighters held in prisons, prisons that the Kurds are looking after.

[Richard Engel]

So as you were saying, Trump almost abandoned them once. It caused a disruption in his government and ultimately Trumped changed his mind and said, fine, well leave those troops there. Is he going to pull them out? If he pulls those troops out again, it's very likely that the Kurds in that part of the country are going to face enormous challenges. They're going to have to work out some sort of deal with the, with the hes. And by the way, my understanding from my reporting and context is that deal is already underway. The Kurds are already talking to HDs so that they could work out some sort of formulation, hey, let's work together. We have oil in our territory, we have our backers from the American troops. So we're pretty strong. Don't just think you can, you know.

[Yalda Hakim]

Push, come steamroll us the question about why they, why HTS or any of these rebel forces would do that. Obviously because of Turkey's influence.

[Richard Engel]

Exactly. So there are all these different proxies and power plants underway. Then there's the issue of the minorities here. There are Christians in this community. There are Alawites who are a Shia faction. Bashar Al Assad himself is Alawite. So if they come in here and impose Islamic law, Sharia law, which is Sunni Sharia law, what happens to the Christians, what happens to the Alawites have been determinant who are Muslims, but they're mostly secular. So that could be a tremendously divisive.

[Yalda Hakim]

And Bashar Al Assad was an Alawite, as you say, a sect of Shia Islam, a minority here in this country, dominating the politics for over five decades. Suddenly the Sunni rebels have sort of taken over the city. I was speaking to a young rebel fighter yesterday, 18 years, and I said to him, you look very young. When did you join the movement? He said, a couple of years ago. My father was taken, my uncle was taken. Many different family members were taken and disappeared. They were brutalized, they were killed, they were tortured. So this is my revenge. And I said to him, what kind of Syria do you want to see? And he said, Christians, Jews, Alawites, everybody. This is a Syria for all. But he said, under the umbrella of Sharia law. So interesting that, you know, that's a big caveat.

[Richard Engel]

We want it to be open for everyone, but under the umbrella of Sharia law. So if you're going to be an optimist, you could say, well, maybe this country's been through so much pain, so much horror that can bring them together. If you're a pessimist, you can say these are Islamists who have very clear ideas of how things should be run, what is appropriate, what is not. They marched in victorious. Israel already hates them. There are other countries in the Middle east that are skeptical of Islamists coming into power. The country is divided into sections with Kurds in one area and Shias and Christians in others. So if you want to take the, the negative point of view, you could see perhaps a return of the civil war here. And I think Syrians don't know which way it's going to go.

[Yalda Hakim]

And, you know, one of the things that I observed yesterday was life feels somewhat like it always does in these places. Like people are going out and about, you know, doing their shopping, getting on with their lives. Banks have reopened, banks have reopened. And also the rebels have said, you.

[Richard Engel]

Know, that despite this, the banks are reopened.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. People are going down to the local mall.

[Richard Engel]

So, yeah, life is normal back in Damascus. No, it's not. It's this new, weird, transitionary normal and.

[Yalda Hakim]

Where people don't know what is actually going on. I mean, we, you know, and that.

[Richard Engel]

Guy who was looking out the window.

[Yalda Hakim]

He'S closed his curtains.

[Richard Engel]

Close his curtains. He's probably going back to bed. He's having another coffee and cigarette. He's like, I'm done for the morning.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. You know, so there are all of these different things that the Syrian people have to grapple with, including poverty, including coming to terms with missing family members, and the torture that this very traumatized nation has gone through. You know, 14 years of civil war, 54 years of Assad regime brutality, because it breaks your heart. My impressions yesterday were that some people were walking around looking quite dazed, almost like waiting for someone to tell them what to do next. You know, these are people who have been told by a dictator when to breathe, when to eat, when to sleep, how to live. This is how the people here have felt for decades. They have lived in absolute fear.

[Richard Engel]

So that is a point of strength because of having this shared collective misery. They can find some solidarity in that. There was no trust. There was absolute fear, and that could help them. I see it in a larger Middle Eastern context. So Hezbollah is now gone. Who would have imagined that? Hezbollah is now effectively removed? Russia has been weakened in the region, and Putin was humiliated here. Iran is weakened. What used to be described as the Shia Crescent has been broken. So the entire fabric of the Middle east within a year, within a year is now been torn, folded, resewn, and it is being reshaped. So history is in motion right now in the Middle east, and I think this is going to play out for the next several years. In fact, I think Trump's going to be a major factor if he decides to pull troops out of this country. We got to watch Iraq. Iraq is, in this case, the dog that hasn't barked. It's deeply tied to this conflict. So I'm watching what's happening there across the border, but right now, I think we have enough on our plate to try and figure out how it's going. We don't even know what's going on across town.

[Yalda Hakim]

No, exactly.

[Richard Engel]

And you're going to go first in a minute and go tell me you're.

[Yalda Hakim]

Going to sacrifice me, Richard. But as you say, who will do your podcast with you? But just on the. On that there is the situation here in Syria where we're hearing the gunfire, we're hearing, you know, the kind of menacing elements, the checkpoints that are emerging, the rebel fighters that have descended on the city, promising, you know, that this will be a united, diverse Syria, Syria for all Syrians. When you look at the map of Syria, you see how divided this nation is. It's torn up into little places. So whether or not the Syrians want to have control over their own future and whether they'll be allowed to is another question. As we've been talking about for the last year or so, you know, we've been talking about this axis of resistance that Iran had created over decades as well, that they had, you know, backed and funded these militant groups. It's crumbling, it's crumbled, you know, from what we've seen. And Iraq is now the only buffer zone for the Iranians. The Iranian empire right on their border has weakened. All they have now is the Yemeni Houthis and Iraq as a buffer zone. So we heard from the former head of MI6, you and I spoke to him of few weeks ago, where he said, sir, Alex. Alex Younger, who said, you know, there's going to be maximum pressure on Iran from the United States and its allies, and we're going to see a lot of compromises from Iran over the course of the next year. Before October 7, if we go back now 14 months, Iran had a noose around Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah. Today, as you say, the Israelis said, don't come anywhere near us, because if you want to fight, we will fight. Warning the rebels. And as you say, the rebels themselves are pragmatic. They've already had outreach from the Russians, from the Iranians, obviously in a weaker position, from different Gulf countries as well, and they're going to work with all of these countries.

[Richard Engel]

And different deals are being made. Right here, there's some gunfire going on. But across town at the Four Seasons Hotel, the elite of the rebel movement, the international community, the un, all kinds of spies and diplomats are having private meetings, redrawing the map of the Middle East. It's like we've gone back a century, right after World War I, when the map of the Middle east was initially drawn in hotels and salons across the region and across Europe. It's happening again, and it's happening now in Damascus with deals and with guns.

[Yalda Hakim]

Absolutely. And as we've seen over the course of the last century, there has been so much bloodshed in this region, and the hope is that these people can now have a better future, a better life. No more bloodshed, no more brutality. But you know, as we've said, I'm not sure that that is going to happen anytime soon.

[Richard Engel]

It has been fantastic to spend this time with you here in Damascus. Just a few weeks ago I was saying I don't think I'm going to be able to come back here. I was a terrorist because I'd spent so much time with the, with the rebels according to the previous regime. Now the regime is gone and here.

[Yalda Hakim]

We are and in this moment, in this, in this tiny, tiny window of.

[Richard Engel]

Free Syria and it could go either way. Wonderful.

[Yalda Hakim]

Really good to see you again Richard.

[Richard Engel]

And keep tuning in and watch us on YouTube and listen to us wherever you get your podcasts and send us more questions. And the email is, the email is theworldky.uk all right, thanks very much. Until next time.

[Yalda Hakim]

Until next time. See you soon. Sa.