The age of assassinations?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim Episode Title: The Age of Assassinations?
Release Date: October 23, 2024
Hosts: Richard Engel (NBC) and Yalda Hakim (Sky News)
Podcast: The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim by Sky News

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Introduction

In the latest episode of The World, hosts Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim delve into the intricate web of modern geopolitical dynamics, focusing on the implications of political assassinations, the increasing collaboration between Russia and North Korea, and the looming U.S. election's impact on global affairs. The episode, titled “The Age of Assassinations?”, navigates through these heavy topics with insightful analysis and firsthand accounts from the frontline.

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North Korea’s Escalated Support for Russia in Ukraine

Timestamp [04:21] - Richard Engel:
Engel opens the discussion by highlighting a significant development in the ongoing Russia-Ukraine conflict: North Korea's transition from supplying ammunition to actively sending troops to support Russia. He remarks, “Now, North Korea first started out supplying ammunition because they have a lot of Soviet style ammunition, and now they're actually sending manpower. It's just shocking.” This move underscores both North Korea's capacity to project military support and the diminishing strength of Russia, which now relies on foreign mercenaries to sustain its war efforts.

Timestamp [05:06] - Yalda Hakim:
Hakim probes the potential impact of North Korean troops in Ukraine, questioning whether their involvement will significantly alter the conflict's trajectory. Engel responds by assessing the role these troops are likely to play: “Well, to a degree, because it's not that sophisticated of fighting. So you just need somebody there to load artillery and fire the mortars and fire the, the, the, the cannons.” He compares the training of these soldiers to that of labor gangs, indicating that while they may not possess advanced combat skills, their presence is nonetheless a strategic support for Russia.

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The Consequences of Political Assassinations: The Case of Yahya Sinwar

Timestamp [13:02] - Richard Engel:
Shifting focus to the Middle East, Engel discusses the recent assassination of Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader in Gaza. He reflects on the differing narratives post-assassination, noting, “Hamas wants to picture Sinwar as a heroic martyr who fought until the end,” contrasting this with the Israeli portrayal of Sinwar’s demise. This duality raises questions about the efficacy and repercussions of targeted killings in altering the power structures within militant organizations.

Timestamp [19:38] - Yalda Hakim:
Hakim explores whether assassinations effectively dismantle such groups or merely serve as temporary setbacks. She states, “Does it make a difference to decapitate these groups? You know, is this a cult of personality or is this greater sort of ideology?” Engel concurs, illustrating that while assassinations like Sinwar’s can momentarily disrupt operations, they often fail to address the underlying grievances that fuel such organizations. He draws parallels with Al Qaeda and ISIS, noting that despite the loss of key leaders, these groups persist, albeit at reduced capacities.

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The Efficacy and Impact of Assassinations on Terrorist Organizations

Timestamp [21:09] - Richard Engel:
Engel delves deeper into the historical context of political assassinations, citing former President Barack Obama’s drone policy aimed at eliminating terrorist leaders with minimal ground engagement. He explains, “Instead of having big wars of occupation, boots on the ground, large footprint boots on the ground that are at risk to those soldiers and also at risk to the civilians that they interact with. Just use intelligence, target the militants and use drones and, or other means and kill them and then stop.”

Timestamp [23:59] - Yalda Hakim:
Hakim summarizes the long-term implications of such strategies, emphasizing that while individual leaders can be removed, the fundamental issues—such as territorial grievances and socio-political disenfranchisement—remain unaddressed. Engel adds, “Hamas has a local address in Gaza, and Gaza is now destroyed. So I, I don’t think just killing Yahya Sinwar is going to do away with this. You’re going to have somebody else who’s equally enraged, equally determined.”

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The U.S. Election and Its Global Implications

Timestamp [10:09] - Yalda Hakim:
The conversation transitions to the critical juncture of the upcoming U.S. election. Hakim underscores the potential ramifications of the election outcome on international conflicts, particularly Ukraine. She observes, “We're two weeks away. Who comes into the White House does have consequences for the Ukrainians, for the international community, and, you know, perhaps as well for the Middle East.”

Timestamp [36:17] - Yalda Hakim:
Hakim elaborates on the Ukrainian perspective regarding the election, highlighting fears that a Trump resurgence could lead to diminished support for Ukraine. “I think he might have this election in the bag,” she predicts, reflecting the uncertainty and high stakes tied to the election's outcome.

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Iran’s Threats Against Donald Trump and Security Concerns

Timestamp [27:00] - Yalda Hakim:
The hosts discuss the resurfacing of Iran's long-standing animosity towards Donald Trump, especially in light of recent assassination attempts. Hakim explains how these threats have tangible repercussions, sharing, “The Justice Department, even the Biden administration has warned Iran and said, listen, if you continue to threaten Donald Trump and those U.S. officials... we will see it as an act of war.”

Timestamp [29:11] - Yalda Hakim:
Hakim recounts a personal account of someone they know who has been directly affected by these threats, necessitating extreme security measures: “They have had to arm themselves. They have paid tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands for security and protection, reconfiguring their entire house, bulletproof doors because cameras outside of their houses...”

Timestamp [28:22] - Yalda Hakim:
She further traces the roots of these tensions back to the assassination of Iran’s top general, Qasem Soleimani, by the Trump administration in 2020. “From that point onwards, the Iranians have, you know, promised that they will avenge his death,” she notes, underscoring the persistent cycle of retaliation.

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Listener Feedback and Musical Interlude

Timestamp [30:33] - Yalda Hakim and Richard Engel:
Transitioning to a lighter segment, the hosts address listener feedback and discuss the music featured in the podcast. They reveal that the music is a remix of original compositions by an Afghan orchestra composed of refugee children who fled the Taliban’s ban on music. Engel shares, “They blend a combination of Western music and Afghan music, blending the instruments together in a very interesting way.” This segment highlights the resilience and cultural preservation efforts of young Afghan musicians amidst turmoil.

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Personal Reflections and Coping Mechanisms

Timestamp [33:19] - Yalda Hakim:
Hakim responds to a listener’s question about coping with the emotional toll of reporting from conflict zones. She emphasizes the importance of balance, stating, “I think that everything is relative. So when I come back from a trip and I spend some time with friends... it doesn't mean that just because we go to these places... everything else is unimportant.”

Timestamp [34:15] - Richard Engel:
Engel offers a personal perspective, reflecting on the constant movement between reporting and family life. He shares, “I've had my own history, I lost a son to a terrible disease. So family life has been, been, been challenging as well. But the train just keeps moving...” This candid admission provides listeners with a glimpse into the personal challenges faced by journalists covering global crises.

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Predictions for Future Developments

Timestamp [35:44] - Richard Engel:
In the prediction segment, Engel speculates on potential geopolitical developments, particularly the possibility of Israel conducting retaliatory strikes against Iran in the upcoming week. “If Israel is going to carry out its retaliatory strike against Iran, it’s got to be this week if it's going to do it before the US Election,” he predicts.

Timestamp [36:17] - Yalda Hakim:
Hakim shares her forecast regarding the U.S. election, hinting at Trump’s potential success. “We think that perhaps there is a momentum building around Donald Trump. And I'll say it, I think he might have this election in the bag,” she anticipates, underscoring the unpredictability and significance of the election's outcome on global politics.

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Conclusion

In this thought-provoking episode, Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim navigate through the complexities of modern geopolitical conflicts, the nuanced role of political assassinations, and the far-reaching impact of electoral outcomes on international stability. Their deep dives into North Korea’s military support for Russia, the contentious assassination of a Hamas leader, and the persistent threats from Iran against political figures like Donald Trump provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the underlying forces shaping our world today. The hosts balance these heavy discussions with personal anecdotes and lighter segments, offering a well-rounded and engaging listening experience.

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Notable Quotes:

• Yalda Hakim [00:00]:
  “Even the Biden administration has warned Iran and said, listen, if you continue to threaten Donald Trump and those people within his National Security circle and council, we will see it as an act of war.”

• Richard Engel [02:41]:
  “We go to these dangerous places. I'm not have a death wish... I just like to look around the world.”

• Richard Engel [13:02]:
  “I get this sense from the Ukrainians that they do hope that if a Donald Trump is re elected and we see a Trump 2.0, that maybe, just maybe, he might just be able to come in, support them and resolve this conflict.”

• Richard Engel [21:09]:
  “Instead of having big wars of occupation, boots on the ground, large footprint boots on the ground that are at risk to those soldiers and also at risk to the civilians that they interact with. Just use intelligence, target the militants and use drones and, or other means and kill them and then stop.”

• Yalda Hakim [36:17]:
  “I think he might have this election in the bag.”

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Closing Remarks:
Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim continue to offer unparalleled insights into global events, combining their extensive frontline experience to provide listeners with authoritative analysis and diverse perspectives. Their commitment to uncovering the truth and exploring the multifaceted nature of international relations makes The World an essential podcast for anyone seeking to understand the complexities of our times.

Transcript

[Yalda Hakim]

Even the Biden administration has warned Iran and said, listen, if you continue to threaten Donald Trump and those people within his National Security circle and council, we will see it as an act of war. And I personally know someone, and you know that same person who is so worried about himself and his family, they have had to arm themselves because they're worried about the threat coming from Iran.

[Richard Engel]

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the world. This is Richard Engel and I'm once again at home in Lisbon this week.

[Yalda Hakim]

Hi, Richard. And this is Yalda Hakim. And I am also back in London for this week's episode.

[Richard Engel]

Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcasts, tell your friends to listen and leave us a review. If you'd like to watch us on YouTube, you can watch the whole thing on our dedicated YouTube channel, the World. And please get in touch with us directly attheworld sky.uk so on this week.

[Yalda Hakim]

We'Ll be talking about the big news. North Korea sending troops to Russia and.

[Richard Engel]

The assassination of the Hamas leader in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar.

[Yalda Hakim]

We'll be asking whether these kinds of.

[Richard Engel]

Killings actually make a difference and what are the consequences? Are these assassinations going to spill back onto the people who are carrying them out? And as always, at the end of the episode, we'll be making our predictions about what is coming on the horizon. So shall we get started reading some of the feedback? People are really enjoying it. People are tuning in. So. So that's exciting and fun.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. Richard, I'm really enjoying seeing you every week. And as you say, we're getting a lot of great feedback. And I have to take credit for you getting more active on social media. I was teasing you about it.

[Richard Engel]

I know. I don't like it. It makes me nervous.

[Yalda Hakim]

Last week, your lovely wife Mary did this great video of you saying exactly that, posting it on Instagram, tagging me. I reposted it. And in the video, Mary says, hey, babe, could you repeat that? And everyone's written to me saying, why are you calling Richard babe? And I was like, absolutely not calling Richard babe. But I.

[Richard Engel]

You're more than welcome to. It's not a problem. I am not easily off, but.

[Yalda Hakim]

But I will actually just read out some of the. The comments that we're getting. One from Peggy. She describes you as Richard Death Wish Engel. Richard, we. We talked about this, actually last week about not being storm chasers.

[Richard Engel]

No, we go to these dangerous places. I'm not. Have a death wish. I do not have a death wish. I. I don't have tattoos. I Don't ride a motorcycle. I wear my seatbelt in the car. I just like to look around the world. And, you know, we were talking about the sort of this job, this crazy way of making a living that we both engage in. And I always have thought of it as having the privilege of riding in the front seat or the front car of the train of history.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, very much so. And I've been in a car with you, Richard. You drive very slowly. You're very cautious.

[Richard Engel]

I'm cautious. You walk slow into the danger. Don't rush in. Go in, but don't rush it.

[Yalda Hakim]

You know, I don't think you're Richard death wish.

[Richard Engel]

No.

[Yalda Hakim]

But Peggy, thank you for writing. I would love worried and concerned.

[Richard Engel]

No, no, I'd like to keep going and going and going. But you, you, you got to embrace challenges, embrace risk. But you want to do it carefully and cautiously. Otherwise the party's over before it began.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, absolutely. I have to give it to you, Richard. We ended last week's program making predictions and you actually said, you know, let's, let's watch North Korea because it' quiet right now.

[Richard Engel]

It was the dog that is not barking. So why always watch that dog that's not barking?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, so I guess let's talk through what, why we're talking about North Korea, especially when it comes to the war in Ukraine, because North Korea. Well, South Korean intelligence, Ukrainian intelligence and American intelligence have been very concerned about the partnership that's been growing and building between North Korea and Russia throughout the course of this invasion of Ukraine.

[Richard Engel]

Now, North Korea first started out supplying ammunition because they have a lot of Soviet style ammunition, and now they're actually sending manpower. It's just shocking. I can't. In a certain sense, it shows strength from North Korea that they have this capacity to offer and shows terrible weakness from Putin that he's got to get mercenary soldiers from, from North Korea. It's, it is quite shocking in a way. First he went for criminals and emptied out the jails, and now he's getting soldiers just across the border who presumably don't speak Russian. It's going to be very difficult to integrate them. So he's buying cannon fodder from across the border to use in his ongoing war.

[Yalda Hakim]

But do you think these North Korean troops will actually make any kind of difference?

[Richard Engel]

Well, to a degree, because it's not that sophisticated of fighting. So you just need somebody there to load artillery and fire the mortars and fire the, the, the, the cannons. So it doesn't take a tremendous amount of, of of skill to, to do that. You can train people to do it relatively quickly. The language skills are not sophisticated either. You know, load point shooting and you know, some coordinates. So I would think that this kind of task you could, same way you could train a labor gang to pick onions or operate a water processing plant, that you could probably train them to fire artillery rounds. Can I tell you something? I went to, I took the Trans Siberian Railroad and ended up in Vladivostok. It is the Asian capital to Russia. And when I was there, I saw North Korean labor gangs. They come across the border, they are bought and paid for by the Russians. They come across as a unit. They live in a specific housing area, they do a specific job, whether it's construction or working at a railroad station, or working in agriculture, whatever. So there already was this tradition in the far east of Russia to use North Korean personnel. But now it seems that they've just taken this evolution one step further.

[Yalda Hakim]

It's when you tell me the story, it sort of makes me realize how many time zones Does Russia have? 9, 10, 11?

[Richard Engel]

You know, you put me on the spot. I'm going to say it wrong, but isn't it nine?

[Yalda Hakim]

I mean, you realize we'll let that.

[Richard Engel]

We'Ll edit that out of the, the podcast. If we get it wrong, someone will.

[Yalda Hakim]

Write in and say actually it's 10. But you know, just how vast this country is. Did they need more time zones? With the invasion of Ukraine and trying to take over more land? I mean, I have also spent a lot of time in traveling on those extraordinary trains across Ukraine. I went from Mariupol right through to Kyiv. It took me about 12 hours. But you just realize how vast this country is and actually tapping into now North Korean foot soldiers. But it goes into something deeper, doesn't it? Some in the west refer to it as the axis of evil. And it's what you talked about. It's, you know, Russia, China, North Korea, Iran and others call it the axis of upheaval. It is an anti west club that is trying to destabilize the US led world order.

[Richard Engel]

And China is clearly the most powerful member of it right now. I mean, if you look at what China has been able to do over the last several years, it's taken advantage of Russia's weakness, Putin's obsession with Ukraine, the fact that he's depleted his troops, he's depleting his arsenal, has to bring in North Korean soldiers, buy Iranian drones, and he's turned his country effectively into a Chinese gas station. You know, he's selling cheap subsidized gas to, to China, which is an enormous consumer and his, in a certain sense, it's keeping him afloat, but it's also made him very dependent. I mean, I think Stalin would have been rolling over in his grave because Stalin thought of himself as the senior partner to Mao and Mao was always treated as a kind of second class citizen in the ranks of the upper Communist Party. The Soviets were the workers and the Chinese were the peasants. The hammer and the sickle. And the hammer which was Russia always dominated over the sickle. But now things have flipped and you have, I think definitely China as the senior partner in this relationship, in this axis of evil, resistance, disruption, disorder, however you want to describe it.

[Yalda Hakim]

I mean, it is, it is in some circles being described as the axis of upheaval. And as you say, they are now, you know, supporting Russia in a massive way by buying their oil and gas, filling their coffers, ensuring that their war economy continues. The sanctions that the United States has imposed on countries, and that's another thing that they all have in common, don't they? The, the Russ Russians, the, the North Koreans, the, the Iranians all have, you know, these sanctions that the west has imposed on them and they've been able to work around it thanks to the support of the likes of the Chinese, but other neutral actors as well, globally, the uae, the Saudis, the Indians who are also, you know, backing these countries and saying, look, America, the West, you've got your, your war with, with the Russians and your great power, competition and rivalry with the Chinese, but we're actually going to step away from this and have nothing to do with it. When I speak to Indian officials, they say to me and I say, well, the Americans are your allies. They say, no, no, no, don't describe them as our allies. They are our partners, our strategic partners. You know, we don't have to say how high when the Americans say, John.

[Richard Engel]

Well, we never talk about, I think the world doesn't talk about India enough. It's, it's so important, it's so big, it has such a, a powerful economy, world biggest democracy, won't even try and guess how many time zones. We clearly don't have our head on that at the moment. But an enormous country and it doesn't, I don't think, get the amount of discussion that it merits, certainly in the American press, in the UK probably a bit more. But globally, I would think it's a largely misunderstood country.

[Yalda Hakim]

But Richard, just bring us up to date on what is going on in Ukraine at the moment. So we've spoken a little bit about North Korea and its involvement, just what is happening here, because you were there actually about, I don't know, I think.

[Richard Engel]

Six, six weeks ago, something like that. Maybe even a little, maybe even a little bit less. So I think you're seeing right now is everything is on hold to a degree with the US Election pending. That doesn't mean the fighting is on hold. That doesn't mean the soldiers who are in the trenches are waiting to see how the election comes. But the big plays are, are now sort of paused and we're seeing battles, the same kind of back and forth, back and forth, low level conflict out, intense, but not, not major shifts on the battlefield in the east. And I think it's really waiting to see whether whether this conflict is going to end or not with some sort of ceasefire or with some sort of abandonment. And that's what Ukrainians I've spoken to as President, Zelensky I've spoken to as well. They're very worried that if President Trump gets elected, he will effectively abandon Ukraine or abandon the Ukrainian project as we've come to know it over the last two years by insisting that there's some sort of deal, that there has to be a deal arranged immediately. So I think Biden is trying to pay up front and prevent that from happening as long as he is able.

[Yalda Hakim]

I get this sort of sense from the Ukrainians that they do hope that if a Donald Trump is re elected and we see a Trump 2.0, that maybe, just maybe, he might be able to find some kind of resolution to this. You know, he's famously said that he'd resolved this conflict in 24 hours, that this war wouldn't have even happened had he been in power. And he points the finger of blame at Joe Biden for being too weak and empowering the Russians to do this. And he talks about having a great relationship with Vladimir Putin. He did that with, you know, Volodymyr Zelensky standing right next to him. And there is that. I get this sense, this hope from the Ukrainian side that maybe perhaps that, you know, that Trump is so unpredictable that he might just be able to come in, support them and resolve this conflict.

[Richard Engel]

Well, I've heard that from a few, but most people I've spoken to there, and I didn't speak to every single Ukrainian, but are more concerned that Trump is going to come and abandon them. Okay, we're going to take a break there and when we come back, we're going to discuss the Assassination of Yahya Sinwar, Hamas's former leader of Gaza and the architect of the October 7th attack.

[Yalda Hakim]

Welcome back. And now we're going to turn to what's been happening in the Middle East.

[Richard Engel]

So the death of Sinwar. A lot of Israelis are celebrating it. They weren't even look, they were looking for him, but they didn't know that they were going to find him. They weren't looking for him that day. It was a normal patrol that kind of just came across these three gunmen in military style clothing, not hiding in bunkers, not surrounded by hostages, not there sitting on bags of money as people had imagined Sinwar, but with a small group of fighters. You notice the most interesting thing that I've been watching is this back and forth, this struggle that Hamas and Israel are engaging in to rewrite the narrative. Now Hamas wants to picture Sinwar as a heroic martyr who fought until the end, who gave up his leadership role or didn't give it up, but wasn't living like a, like a, a leader in the lap of luxury, but was reduced to fighting to his last breath, carrying a rifle until the very end. So they were, they're trying to portray him as a, a heroic person who made a, a last stand and battled until the end.

[Yalda Hakim]

And the image that the Israelis released to the world, I think was a PR mistake for, for Israel because as you say, Hamas and the supporters of Hamas and those who want to believe that he didn't sort of die a coward surrounded, strapping himself to some hostages and hiding behind civilians. He was out in the open. And the narrative that is now being pushed from, you know, the other side is that he was caught in a firefight. He went into this building, he threw that stick with his one arm at.

[Richard Engel]

The Israeli drone, at the drone. And you see the drone kind of turns away to the side, almost like it's sort of avoiding being, shielding itself. Shielding itself. This was weird too, that the drone sort of reacted in a kind of a human like way, protecting its face from the stick.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, I mean, it just, that is, as you say, so weird. But you've actually been to that very neighborhood. I don't know if you've been to the building, but you've actually, I may have spent, spent time in Gaza.

[Richard Engel]

This was, this is the weirdest thing. So I, it's very difficult, as you know, to get into Gaza. So relatively recently I took one of these before Israeli military embeds sort of a few weeks ago.

[Yalda Hakim]

Oh yeah.

[Richard Engel]

And it's the only way to get into Gaza and It's not ideal. I don't like reporting that way. Obviously, the better way is just to go in yourself and sort of roam around and talk to people. But it's a closed area. And it was in an area called Tel Sultan, which is in Rafah. And let me just describe it a little bit. A wasteland. Everything around it was destroyed. The roads were destroyed, all the buildings were. Were. Were damaged or blown up. I didn't see a single sign of life. There were just debris on the. On the ground, actually picked up. I still have it with me, a notebook. I actually have it right here. Coincidentally, I picked up this notebook, and inside, I just thought it was interesting. I picked it up off the ground, and it was a girl's workbook, and it has no cover on it, and I'm holding it in front so those who are watching online can see it. And it was a school workbook. And there's a young girl, I think she was probably 10 or 11 in here, maybe a little bit younger, maybe even nine. And she was using this to do lessons, to do doodles and drawings. And here's one just with a pen, and you see hearts. And it says in Arabic, mama M A M A. So. So this was the notebook that I just picked up.

[Yalda Hakim]

You can see some of the writing in that notebook. Looks like Arabic, some English words as well, and some doodling. And quite an extraordinary image, actually. What appears to be some kind of fighter. Could be a Hama. Looks like he's got his face covered with a scarf. A keffiyeh?

[Richard Engel]

Yeah, he's got the keffiyeh on. I don't know what happened to her, but the area was completely abandoned or seemingly so. Broken tunnels that had been used for hostages, broken buildings, military patrol, Israeli military patrols going in and out of the area. So when I heard that. That Sinwar had been in this place, I was surprised. I said, what would he be doing there in this total wasteland? But maybe he thought that was a safe place to maneuver because the Israelis had already kind of cleared that area. They had already stopped the fighting. There was nothing going on there. The only signs of life I saw, aside from the troops that I was with, were some stray cats and, you know, debris or signs of previous life. So that's where he was. However, he died, whether it was, you know, with a loaded gun in his hand that was smoking, and he fought till the end like Clint Eastwood or whatever. This was a. This was a torturer. He was hated by many Palestinians. He was, you know, what. You know, how he Got the job as head of Hamas. First, the assassination. We'll get to that in a second, as we promised. But the assassination of the previous guy. But he was the enforcer. He was the one who was.

[Yalda Hakim]

He was known as the Butcher of Khan Yunus, the Butcher of Hanunis. Palestinian informants.

[Richard Engel]

Exactly. So if you were suspected of turning on the group, he would come in and burn you and cut you and torture you and with his own hands. This is not some hero who deserves to be, you know, missed and lionized.

[Yalda Hakim]

But, you know, Richard, nasty guy. I interviewed his interrogator because, of course, he spent, you know, almost two decades.

[Richard Engel]

The Israeli interrogator.

[Yalda Hakim]

The Israeli interrogator. He's interesting.

[Richard Engel]

I've only read about him. Him. I've never met him.

[Yalda Hakim]

Two decades in an Israeli prison where he learned to speak fluent Hebrew. And he said, you know, I knew him better than his mother and father and family members.

[Richard Engel]

What did the. The interrogator, after all of his hours and hours meeting with this. This man, he said, the world is.

[Yalda Hakim]

A better place without Yahya Sinwar. The world is a safer place. However that gets to us, talking about assassinations, decapitation of these leaders, you know, someone like Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas in Gaza, who is believed to be the Mastermind, who orchestrated October 7th. Does it make a difference to decapitate these groups? You know, is this a cult of personality or is this greater sort of ideology? And it doesn't matter, because they will immediately replace, which I believe they're replacing him with his brother potentially. You know, we see these groups immediately replace the leadership and move on.

[Richard Engel]

So let's think this through a little bit. So do assassinations make any difference? Do these leaders matter and. Or is it just, you know, mowing the lawn? One Special Forces, American Special Forces described it to me in that way that it's mowing the lawn. It's very cynical. It's very sort of. Of brutal image. But that you just mow the lawn, keep it, keep the grass at one level, and then it grows again, and you have to mow the lawn again. That's the way the fight against Al Qaeda and some of these other militant groups was described to me by the people doing the mowing up more, mowing the lawn. Now, is that a solution? Is that a temporary strategy? If you look at. Look at Al Qaeda, so the U.S. by the way, Barack Obama was probably the biggest assassinator of anyone else. This was his favorite policy.

[Yalda Hakim]

He wanted to end the big wars.

[Richard Engel]

In the Middle east and become drone. So if we talk about political assassinations, the man who won the Nobel Peace Prize immediately upon taking offer was probably the biggest assassinator in modern American history.

[Yalda Hakim]

People don't talk about that enough. In the role that Obama played in launching drones in places like Yemen, for example, to go after Al Qaeda in.

[Richard Engel]

The Arabian Peninsula is more humane, more precise. Instead of having big wars of occupation, boots on the ground, large footprint boots on the ground that are at risk to those soldiers and also at risk to the civilians that they interact with. Just use intelligence, target the militants and use drones and, or other means and kill them and then stop. That was the shift. But it opened up this, this whole discussion. Now there are, it's the common way of fighting a war is intelligence, you know, driven and zapping you out of the sky with, with a flying insect. So that's, that, that a lot of that was Obama. So we're still living in that, in.

[Yalda Hakim]

That new reality, including 2011, the killing of Osama Bin Laden, which was done in Abbottabad in Pakistan. He was, yes, living in, in an area that was considered quite affluent, where a lot of diplomats lived and the Navy seals in the dead of night went in and killed Osama Bin Laden. The question is then what did it do? What impact did it have?

[Richard Engel]

It broke Al Qaeda's back. Al Qaeda has never been the same. Now there could be an Al Qaeda attack tomorrow and we both look foolish, but the organisation, even if that happened, the organization was set back a decade or more. So the, the loss of Osama Bin Laden was, was devastating for Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda never really recovered. And the same thing with, with what replaced it. You know, you had ISIS and ISIS came and it's like its leaders were killed one after another after another. And ISIS is still out there and ISIS still carries out or attacks are carried out in ISIS's name with some frequency, particularly across Europe. ISIS style attacks or ISIS attacks in France, Germany, in the uk, you have a big ISIS problem there. That's still there, but not necessarily on the level that they were operating before. So the fact that their leaders have been killed has kept them. Well, it has mowed the lawn.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, well the Caliphate was decimated and both you and I reported from places like Iraq and Syria when at the high, the height of that conflict, when you know, the coalition of Western and Arab nations got together to try and completely attempt to, as you say, get, mow the lawn or get rid of.

[Richard Engel]

Isis and they're all different. You know, I think there's some sort of Often a blending of these groups. Let's say take Hamas, for example. Hamas is very localized. Hamas has a grievance, deep grievance, Palestinian grievance against Israel, against the occupation of Palestinian territory, the occupation of Gaza. And Hamas never carried out attacks anywhere else. Hamas has a local address in Gaza, and Gaza is now destroyed. So I, I don't think just killing Yahya Sinwar is going to do away with this. Sop up this mel of this, this well of resentment. You're going to have somebody else who's equally enraged, equally determined. It'll just take some time for that.

[Yalda Hakim]

Person to emerge and perhaps a more hardened attitude. Because when you look at what's happened in the course of the last year, Israel took its pain and the tragedy of October 7, and many people say, well, it has context and there was things going on well before October 7th. And this is the tragedy of the Palestinians, has been there for decades and how they felt in Gaza. But what we've had in the course of the last year is almost 45,000 people dead, almost 100,000 people injured, many of them children, many of them now orphans. Many of them will end up in these refugee camps as orphans who have seen their parents and relatives being killed. And when you look at the inspiration behind groups like ISIS or Al Qaeda, what images did they use when they were trying to recruit young people in the west, in the uk, across Europe.

[Richard Engel]

You know, it was images of Palestinians being abused or made homeless or any kind of perceived slight against Muslims, whether it was the Quran being burned by a free speech advocate advocacy group in France or Scandinavia, or it was some terrible thing that befell a Palestinian family. Any slight or humiliation for Islam or Muslims in general was fodder for the group.

[Yalda Hakim]

Absolutely. And the Palestinian course is right at the top. Images of Palestinian children, you know, certainly now there's no shortage of it will be used not just to radicalize within Gaza, but internationally.

[Richard Engel]

I couldn't agree more. I think the next 911 will use Gaza as its, as its motivation, as its template, will say this is why. And they will point to the, to the debris of Gaza.

[Yalda Hakim]

But the messaging continues, especially in an age of social media and YouTube and, you know, but, but these assassinations we talked last week about, Naftali Bennett, you know, talking about Iran as this kind of octopus of terror. And its tentacles reach far beyond the region. Its tentacles have also reached the United States. You know, we often hear now very openly following two assassination attempts on Donald Trump, which, you know, may or may not have had, probably didn't have anything to do with Iran.

[Richard Engel]

But there are, I haven't heard any suggestions.

[Yalda Hakim]

No, but it did. The, the issue emerged around the, once the assassination attempts happened, this issue around Donald Trump and, you know, Iran's vendetta against him emerged again and to the forefront of people's minds.

[Richard Engel]

Yeah, you were telling me about this. I was surprised by that, that the, the Iranians have that kind of, of reach and power, that the US Is taking their assassination threats seriously. But what is, so what, tell me about Iran. What's the concern with Iran?

[Yalda Hakim]

So the Justice Department, even the Biden administration has warned Iran and said, listen, if you continue to threaten Donald Trump and those U.S. officials, generals, you know, military officials, diplomats, people within his national security circle and council and who were his strategists, we will see it as an act of war. And I personally know someone, and you know, that same person who is so worried about himself and his family, and he's been told by the FBI that the Iranians have tapped into and hacked into name him.

[Richard Engel]

But this is someone that both of us know. I didn't know that this had happened with him. I know him, but not as well as you do. And he hadn't mentioned this to me.

[Yalda Hakim]

And so, as you know, we've talked about this. Iran's top general, Qasem Soleimani, was assassinated by the Trump administration in 2020 in Iraq.

[Richard Engel]

Droned out of the sky.

[Yalda Hakim]

Droned out of the sky. And the Americans and the Israelis and, you know, a number of countries in the region saw Qasem Soleimani as a massive threat. He was killed in Iraq. And from that point onwards, the Iranians have, you know, promised that they will avenge his death. And so the threat to Donald Trump's life is actually so real that there are concerns within the security establishment in the United States.

[Richard Engel]

And this mutual friend of ours told you that he has already been receiving threats. He had to what, change his house, live, live in his basement? Or what's, what's he been doing?

[Yalda Hakim]

He told me he was never in the room. He was never part of the decision making around the killing of Qasem Soleimani. But a list, you know, a year after the assassination went out, and he was put on that list by the Iranians. So he lives, you know, somewhere in the western part of the United States with his family, with his children. They have had to arm themselves. They have paid tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands for security and protection, reconfiguring their entire house, bulletproof doors because cameras outside of their houses because they're worried about the threat coming from Iran. So they have had to do this out of their own pocket, including bringing in rifles and arms into their own home.

[Richard Engel]

So do we have some sort of answers for. Remember we said we were going to talk about three questions at the top. One, okay, North Korea, sending troops to. To Russia. I think it's revealing about how strong Russia is right now or how weak Russia is and this alliance, Sinwar and assassinations. So what do we. What are we. What are the conclusions that it. Assassinations sometimes work, but they don't solve the problem and they sometimes bring consequences like Iran trying to settle the score. What are we. Where are we landing on these? On these?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think on. On the North Korea stuff, you know, as you say, it's just. It potentially will make a difference because both sides need the manpower and the Russians are bringing in their access of resistance support, whatever you call, call them up, Axis of evil, upheaval, whatever the west wants to call them. And, you know, we'll see how things pan out for the Ukrainians as this U.S. election, you know, we're two weeks away. Who comes into the White House does have consequences for the Ukrainians, for the international community, and, you know, perhaps as well for the Middle East.

[Richard Engel]

Can I shift gears here for a second? On a much lighter note, we've got some very. Some great feedback, some great questions, and a lot of people are asking about the music.

[Yalda Hakim]

Oh, the music.

[Richard Engel]

Mary, my wife. I won't keep saying that I'll say wife, because we're only on episode three. So now everyone doesn't know. My wife's name is Mary. Her name is Mary. Everyone keeps asking about this music, and it seems a little bit like, you know, Arabian Nights. Somebody once asked me, like, what do you want? You? And yelled on some sort of flying carpet. But there's a story. There's a story that makes the music all the more interesting, all the more beautiful and make a lot of sense. Would you like to tell it?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And we're both deeply connected to this bit of music. Actually, it's not random, although it was influenced by. So, you know, our team remixed it or whatever you. You, you call it.

[Richard Engel]

But the original source before it was remixed is.

[Yalda Hakim]

Is what is an Afghan orchestra. And this orchestra was made up of children in Afghanistan, some orphans, some street kids, some who just had a love for music. And the orchestra traveled across the world here in the uk, in the United States, you know, played in some of the biggest convention halls and and auditoriums.

[Richard Engel]

So these refugee musicians who had to escape Afghanistan as the Taliban were coming in with.

[Yalda Hakim]

Music is banned.

[Richard Engel]

Yeah, music is banned. So they have to flee the country carrying their violin cases and sitar cases. And they have a. They play both a combination of Western music and Afghan music, blending the instruments together in a very interesting way. Portugal gave them asylum, and they're here and they're doing really well.

[Yalda Hakim]

Incredible. And we have both interviewed them over the years. We've met them. I remember walking into the Serena Hotel in Kabul somewhere. You've spent a lot of time as well. And, you know, one of the pianists in the lobby was one of these kids who was an orphan who would play at the hotel for guests and just absolutely beautiful. So that's where the music comes from. Yeah. And. But I think, Richard, we. We have a couple more questions.

[Richard Engel]

Let's do it.

[Yalda Hakim]

Let's do the question. Let's do the questions. One of the questions is from one of the listeners, Suba, who says, how do you recover from all the suffering you see when you're covering these stories? You go first.

[Richard Engel]

Scotch? No. You know what? I don't think of it as a recovery, but you go first. What's your. Is it spending time with families?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, yeah, I think have family time. You know, we spend a lot of time together in our bubble, but I think that everything is relative. So when I come back from a trip and I spend some time with friends, they'll say, oh, but it's not like being in a war zone or it's not like covering that big global event. And it's like, it doesn't matter to me. The childcare issues or the relationship issues or the issues around what happens at work all matter. You know, it's all relative. It doesn't mean that just because we go to these places or we're on these front lines that then everything else is unimportant. Absolutely not. What about you?

[Richard Engel]

I. I always think that I'm. I'm always kind of on the road at all times. I feel when I'm at home, it has its own dynamics and its own strangeness and its own, you know, politics. And then I'm on the road. And that's also weird. The train of history keeps moving. You know, the train of history comes into this station. This is my favorite station. I've got a five year old as well, and Mary, and. But the train has had its. Its ups and downs and it's had, you know, rough patches along the way. You know, I've had my own history, I lost a son to a terrible disease. So family life has been, been, been challenging as well. But the train just keeps moving and whether it's, it's home for rest and putting more supplies on or it's traveling through Ukraine or, or North Korea or Gaza or wherever it happens to be, it's all fascinating and part of the, the continuous journey.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And also I know one of your things, and we can talk about this on another episode and how you survived that when you were, you were taken hostage. One of the stories, and we can talk about this another time, but is your love for cooking as well and, and you know, relaxes me greatly. It does. And I've been in your kitchen with your family.

[Richard Engel]

Give me a sharp knife and some garlic and you can do anything to me.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. And, and so, and you do you cook very, very well, Richard. But I think, I think on that note, you know, any predictions for, for the next week, we might potentially be seeing each other as well, you know, in the next few days. So I'm really looking forward to that.

[Richard Engel]

And that's fun. Yes. It's not, it's not total nonsense. We really are friends. We are spend time together and we're going to go and spend, spend some time together, even off, you know, off of work soon. So that'll be fun. Predictions for next week. Can I, can I hedge it? I don't know really allowed, I would say if Israel is going to carry out its retaliatory strike against Iran, it's got to be this week if it's going to do it before the US Election.

[Yalda Hakim]

And you know, your predictions have been spot on in the last few weeks.

[Richard Engel]

And what about you? What's yours?

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, I'm now very, you know, I'm one of the people leading Sky's US Coverage of election night. So I am now deep in almost like study mode, you know, getting my head wrapped around the swing states and what they're all saying and what the counties are doing and, you know, what the undecided voters are saying and any.

[Richard Engel]

Predictions, the million dollar question that everyone's.

[Yalda Hakim]

Asking, I mean, there are people who say, you know, have you got a coin? You could flip it, it could go any which way. The point poles are so tight.

[Richard Engel]

But Richard, that's why it's a prediction.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. But I have been speaking to people who are now saying things have stalled for Kamala Harris. And you know, we think that perhaps there is a momentum building around Donald Trump. And I'll say it, I think he might have this election in the bag.

[Richard Engel]

We will see. We will see. And that's why it's so important.

[Yalda Hakim]

Thanks for listening to the world with me, Yelda Hakim.

[Richard Engel]

And meet Richard Engel. See you soon.

[Yalda Hakim]

See you soon, Richard.