← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
'The Wild West': Trump rips up the rule book
00:43:06
Two weeks after his inauguration, Yalda and Richard assess the impact of the US president's assault on the old world order and the implications for America's friends and foes alike. They discuss his "fiery" conversation with the Danish prime...
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- [00:00]
James Matthews
Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.
- [00:03]
Richard Engel
Together, we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years and we're going to.
- [00:11]
James Matthews
Be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha.
- [00:22]
Richard Engel
Calneck and me, Mark Stone for Trump.
- [00:24]
James Matthews
100 every weekday at 6:00am, wherever you get your podcast.
- [00:43]
Gelder Hakim
Hello and welcome to the world. I'm Gelder Hakim and I'm back in London after a week in freezing cold.
- [00:51]
Richard Engel
Washington, D.C. and I'm Richard Engel at home in Lisbon, just also back from a quick trip in Syria this time. And I'm heading off again soon. And this week, let's look at the Trump doctrine. He's been using very aggressive rhetoric, the tools of executive power, and so far he's getting what he wants. Is he planning to tear up the international order as we know it?
- [01:13]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah. We'll be talking about the situation with Greenland, the fiery conversation he had with Denmark's prime minister, the confrontation with Colombia's president, and I've been speaking to the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court who is saying that international law needs to be respected and we're not living in the wild, wild west.
- [01:34]
Richard Engel
We're going to take some listener questions and I'm also going to tell you about what I saw in Syria and particularly the remains of the ISIS state. It is a ticking time bomb.
- [01:45]
Gelder Hakim
As always, make sure you're following us wherever you listen. And of course, leave us a review your comments questions at the usual place, the worldatsky.uk so let's get started. So, Richard, if you had told me a few months ago that the United States would be getting into a fight with Colombia and Greenland, I probably wouldn't have believed you given the turmoil in the Middle east and of course the ongoing war in Ukraine. Donald Trump said that those were the two issues that he wanted to resolve of. But in week two already we have seen him get into a fight with the president of Colombia. And of course, Donald Trump has made immigration a centerpiece of his entire campaign and no doubt he will. Throughout the course of his presidency, he promised the American people that he was going to send so called illegal aliens or these immigrants back to their home countries. And he's got his eyes firmly set on South America. So he said, put a plane load full of these immigrants and sent them on military planes back to Colombia. That plane was turned back to the United States and the president of Colombia said You will not treat us like some kind of inferior race. You have to have respect. Just because you're a superior or you think you're a superior nation and economy, we're not going to be treated this way. This all played out on social media. Donald Trump then threatened Colombia with tariffs. Colombia threatened Trump and the United States with tariffs. And everyone sort of thought, how is this going to end, this confrontation between these two leaders? We then saw a statement being issued by the White House saying Colombia has backed down, they're going to take the migrants, and Donald Trump has backed down from the tariffs. What you can see here, certainly from my perspective, what I've seen is a, we know that Donald Trump's favorite sort of threat is tariffs. He uses it as a way to get what he wants from people. And also that ultimately these states that are threatened seem to be backing down so far.
- [04:14]
Richard Engel
And that's what happened here. And will that only convince this streak within him that it is the correct one to be leaning into? And apparently, if you read all the accounts of how these decisions are being made, it's not, you know, deliberative. It's not that he's calling people together in the Situation Room. It's on the spot. It's decision making. In this case, it became a battle of wills and he won. So is this going to be the new approach, do you think? And is he going to keep doubling down on what is either success or partial success?
- [04:48]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah, I mean, to your point there about no Situation Room, no briefing notes, he is shooting from the hip, essentially this kind of unorthodox method that he uses. It's almost like superpower swagger using American power in what he says, peace through strength. We've spoken sort of briefly about the situation in Colombia, which was a fast moving situation and then was quickly resolved as well. All on social media, phone calls, leaks, the way that his court operates.
- [05:25]
Richard Engel
And Colombia, for those who aren't listening, is a U.S. ally.
- [05:28]
Gelder Hakim
Exactly.
- [05:28]
Richard Engel
Colombia is a, one of the closest U.S. allies in Latin America. And that was all resolved in hugs and kisses. And we're all great relations, we have great friends. That's how it was resolved. But it almost went off the rails for a second.
- [05:40]
Gelder Hakim
And that's the thing, as you say, a great American ally. I mean, obviously Gustavo Petro is a leftist left leaning president, you know, something that Colombia is not used to. And Donald Trump has described him as a socialist. He, he would happily describe himself as a socialist. But that's not the point, is it? Colombia is considered an ally and I guess he tried to take Trump on as well, and he found in the end he had to back down because he realized, hang on a second, we're going to get hurt here. My economy is already not doing as well as it should be. And if I, I don't know, it's kind of that. What we've talked about with Trump, that madman theory of, if I push this guy too far, is he likely to impose those tariffs? And he said, listen, if I don't get my way, you know, I'll double it. So he started with 25%. And God knows where he thought he was going to end this. And it's also a warning shot for other countries. It's, it's sending a very clear signal I am willing to operate in this way to get what I want.
- [06:51]
Richard Engel
Clearly, Columbia didn't want to be made an example of in order to frighten everybody else to get into line. But it seemed like that was. Was coming. And we've seen Trump before, but what we're seeing now is very different. When Trump was inaugurated in 2016, I knew some people in his inner circle. They did not like him. They were frightened of him. They were trying to sort of put guardrails in place. And I'm not saying that he was right all about the deep state or anything like that, but he did feel opposition, and that opposition was there this time. He's, he's come in with an agenda. He's had years to think about it. He's, he's surrounded himself by people who are part of that agenda, who are looking to, to carry it out. So he's not only faster, he's shooting from the hip, but with a plan. The guns are already loaded, and he's so far, you know, moving quite quickly. The question is, will this go too far? And I spoke to several people in the region, and they, some of them don't mind Trump. They like this approach. And there are many Americans who voted for Trump who think this is great. It's about time America's showing off its power and using it. But I did speak with people in the Middle east as senior, senior people, people who are, you know, have their hands on the levers of government. And they were very upset about these phone calls that happened between Trump and, and Jordan, for example, when he talked about how the Egyptians, the Jordanians, should just basically take the people of Gaza. So Gaza's destroyed, so the neighboring countries should just sort of absorb them. That, that, that shocked people, not as being decisive, but as being sort of callous. As being unaware of the situation. Okay, here's a destroyed place, all right, Just get rid of the people.
- [08:37]
Gelder Hakim
Certainly when it came to the ceasefire that we saw between Hamas and Israel just before the inauguration, Donald Trump was widely praised even in European circles. They viewed it as a very positive move that he used his ability and understanding of power to ensure that the guns felt fell silent and the bombs stopped and the people of Gaza had respite. And also you had the hostages return home. But when then Donald Trump sort of turns on allies the way that he has currently on Denmark. So, you know, Richard, if we look at the situation in Greenland, for example, this is not the first time that Donald Trump or the United States, for example, frankly, has had designs and desires to obtain Greenland. I mean, it goes back to 1867, when the United States attempted to purchase Greenland. And then again, I think it was Harry Truman in 1946 tried to offer $100 million at the time for Greenland. Right. And during the Second World War, they had, they put bases there to take on Nazi Germany. So the United States has an existing relationship with Greenland. I mean, it is strategically positioned between Europe, North America and the Arctic zone. And when you see the kind of great power competition that is currently taking place there, when Donald Trump says there are Chinese ships and Russian ships out there and we've got to stop this, on some level, he is right. Greenland is the shortest distance between Russian nuclear missiles and America's east coast. Right. So they want to be able to monitor, have radars. They've got their ballistic missile system there as well. And so it's not totally crazy that Donald Trump is saying, I want Greenland. It also has all of these minerals, these rare minerals that the United States wants. I mean, most of these minerals are China produces them. But 30 out of the something like 54 minerals that the United States says is rare and is needed for things like batteries and wind turbine and green energy and military equipment comes from Greenland. So it's resource rich. And because it's now the climate change and melting of the ice, it is going to become easier to be able to access those resources if it can.
- [11:26]
Richard Engel
Have a rare earth deposit very close by that also has a strategic look into the Arctic and a strategic foothold in the Arctic. It's close to the United States. Sure, of course, it makes sense. But the problem, it belongs to someone else. So how do you make that happen? And it sort of fits with this concept we were talking about last week, how we're back into regional hegemonic zones, spheres of Influence. And President Trump is talking about this being the United States sphere of influence, the Gulf of America going all the way down to Panama instead of the Gulf of Mexico, that is part of the American space. And then going north, the Arctic space, going Greenland included, the Greater America peace. And exactly along the lines of we were talking about last week and you were saying how he sees Xi and Putin as competitors, but also rivals who are playing a similar game because they each want to be dominant in their geographic space.
- [12:28]
Gelder Hakim
I mean, on some level, if you were to completely look at it objectively, if we think that Donald Trump is thin skinned, you should meet Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin. You know, people sort of, you know, think that, that Trump is kind of like erratic and unpredictable. It's not so much the purchasing of Greenland, for example, is not completely sort of an inconceivable thought. Right. Even going back to 2019, I remember Senator Tom Cotton, Republican, writing extensively about the need to purchase Greenland. Why this isn't a bad idea. It's just the way he goes about it. A decade ago, the Chinese tried to purchase an American base. They tried to build airports there. The Americans freaked out under Donald Trump, put pressure on the Danes and the people of Greenland, and they stopped that from, from happening. And then the Americans sort of invested a whole heap of money there. So it's not totally like insane when people say, why does he want Greenland strategically and economically, it makes sense. The question is, is he going about it the right way? Now what I think will happen is this kind of tussle over Greenland with Denmark saying it's not for sale. Greenland is a semi autonomous region. They are in a position to ask to call a referendum and seek their independence. What Donald Trump is pushing is saying, you know what, you could become very wealthy under us, will give you far more money than what Denmark can ever give you. We'll sort of swallow you up and we'll use you for our own strategic purposes. We'll access your rare minerals and you'll also become wealthy in the process. So in many ways it's sort of, he sees it as beneficial to all. We saw him send Don Jr there as well just before inauguration. His son floating around with a bunch of people from Greenland, you know, wearing MAGA hats. But the point is, it's how he goes about these things.
- [14:43]
Richard Engel
And it sounds like he might, he might get it. Look, if, if he's making this, this big push, Greenland is, is not really in a position to defend itself. Is there a precedent? I think I would be very nervous If I was sitting in, in Taiwan listening to the United States president and the people around him making this argument, well, look, we need it, it can help our economy. It's good for, for, for lots of reasons. It's close and will make everyone rich there. If you were sitting in Taiwan, I think you'd be very nervous because you're right on the Chinese coast. You are, you're very useful. You produce lots and lots of things, including semiconductors. If you were Crimea, I think, or Ukrainian who's hoping to get back Crimea, I think you'd be very nervous having this kind of conversation because it means, well, just make a land swap, give us Greenland, you can take Crimea and Taiwan, maybe will look the other way. You, you get start, you start getting into these, these sort of realpolitik tradeoffs and maybe that's the world we're going into, but it isn't the world of international organizations. And you had a fascinating conversation a couple of, what was it yesterday, the day before, with, with, with from the, someone from the International Criminal Court, one of the many international organizations of this rules based system that Donald Trump is trying to challenge at the very least, if not dismantle.
- [16:04]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah, Richard, I interviewed the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Kareem Khan, and you'll remember, of course, he issued arrest warrants for a number of Hamas leaders as well as Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and its former defense minister when he issued the arrest warrant. He was the defense minister at the time, Yoav Gallant. And this caused outrage in the United States to the point where the House of Representatives voted to impose sanctions on the icc. The Senate is probably going to follow. So I put that to the chief prosecutor and said to him, how do you feel about the fact that this court is facing these potential sanctions from the United States? Just have a listen to what he had to say.
- [16:56]
Kareem Khan
We follow the law. We have. And the judges of the ICC decided before I was elected that we had jurisdiction in the Palestine state case. Is one really seriously arguing that the hostages in Israel have no recourse when they're being held in Palestine? Or is somebody seriously arguing that a baby in Gaza or hospitals in Gaza are undeserving of protection under the Geneva Conventions? We're not in the Wild West. We're not in the Wild West. We're in a world at least that says we are governed by the rule of law.
- [17:34]
Richard Engel
Interesting. I love his last. We're in a world at least that says we're in a world that is governed by Laws, are we or are we in that wild west? And the big cowboys are President Xi, President Putin, President Trump.
- [17:52]
Gelder Hakim
But I wonder, Richard, is this the way that Donald Trump functions and operates? He might think, well, I'm probably not going to get Greenland, but I'm going to push them, back them into a corner so that I can ultimately get the best deal. You know, the art of the deal. His selling book, you know, is this, is this what I can do? And I, you know, I watched the situation in Colombia very carefully and I watched as the President of Colombia pushed back really, really hard initially putting out statements saying, we are a free people. And I thought, I wonder if European leaders are taking note and, and, and now saying to themselves, perhaps the era of over management, of having carefully crafted scripts, of coming out with statements after press conferences and saying, this is the readout from this ally, this is the readout from that ally, and we agree on these fronts. Or is it now, as you say, no situation room, no briefing notes, all your dirty laundry out on social media, having arguments quite publicly? And also, are Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin taking note? Because no doubt they're enjoying this kind of tussle between these NATO allies. Because don't forget Greenland, by default, the fact that it is a territory of Denmark is a NATO member. So as you say, what's going to happen? Are they going to invoke Article 5? Are they going to go to war over Greenland? Probably not.
- [19:29]
Richard Engel
Yeah. A NATO member invoking Article 5 against a fellow NATO member. So Greenland, yes, it has an autonomous local government that rules the affairs for the, for the, for the community, but their foreign policy and national security policy are set by Denmark. What was interesting, though, did you watch the speech that he made at Davos? He was there. So Davos is this big annual gathering of the, the business elite of the world, big business get together and sort of plan and catch up and sort of figure out where the industrialized economies are, are, and where they're going. And it's a club. And the same people go to Davos every year. They know each other and they know specific cocktail parties that you're supposed to go to afterwards.
- [20:17]
Gelder Hakim
This, there's always a better cocktail party to go to.
- [20:20]
Richard Engel
Exactly. Somebody else's cocktail party. The real action is going on. On the next Hill, Hill over. He appeared that day on a video screen and tells them all that basically everything they're doing is a waste of time, that the EU is, is a giant bureaucratic mess that can't do a deal with Europe. It's it's just like similar arguments that he's making about international institutions like International Criminal Court, that he says went beyond its jurisdiction, or the UN he has very little time for the un. He, he cut off, he suspended US Aid, pulled out of the World Health Organization, pulled out of the Paris climate. Anything that talks about international cooperation, he seems to be allergic to, and that includes the European Union. And he told them as much in Davos.
- [21:05]
Gelder Hakim
Apparently those who were in the room, Richard, were saying that when he talked about acquiring Canada, for example, there were gasps in the room. And I just think about, you know, days when President Obama, Angela Merkel, David Cameron would make their way to Davos. And as you say, it was like the elites coming together. It was this kind of private members club. And if you were in, you were in. You were one of the chosen ones. And it was where democracies go to discuss issues. And here we are, the President of the United States beaming through from the White House straight into Davos and telling them all that, frankly, you're useless. You're going to have to up defense spending to 5%. I know I had set a different standard last time, but it's going up even further now. And there are other criteria that you now need to meet because you're not pulling your weight. And so you have to wonder what is going on in the minds of many of these technocrats, these business leaders? So how is that all going to play out with allies? Is it going to be welcome to the world of Trump, where there is no theory and it is all just chaos and he kind of just goes after anyone, depending on his mood that day. So the Colombian leader or Greenland, or is he going to have the same sort of strategy with the likes of North Korea, Russia, China, Iran? Is he going to be firm with those countries, or is he going to sort of flirt with both sides in terms of how he deals with them?
- [22:48]
Richard Engel
But there was one person that, who put up his hand at Davos. It was very interesting, unlike everybody else, wasn't part of this club, doesn't have your annual membership to whatever country clubs they. They go to or ski clubs they go to up there. He was the Syrian foreign minister from the new rebel Islamist government that led by the. The Jelani. And he puts up his hand in this community wearing, I don't want to say Neil fitting suit, but looked, didn't look completely at home there, puts up his hand, is like, we're open for business. Syria, we are ready. We want to take part in international trade deals. We want tourism Our economy is ready to engage and seem to have gotten a pretty, pretty warm welcome.
- [23:32]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah. Richard, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, I'm going to ask you about what you recently found in Syria because of course, we were together when the Assad regime found fell, but you have been back since. So let's talk about that when we're back.
- [23:57]
James Matthews
Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.
- [24:00]
Richard Engel
Together we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years and we're going to.
- [24:07]
James Matthews
Be following every twist and turn turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthew, me, Martha.
- [24:18]
Richard Engel
Kelnick and me, Mark Stone for Trump.
- [24:21]
James Matthews
100 every weekday at 6:00am, wherever you get your podcast.
- [24:36]
Gelder Hakim
So, Richard, just before the break, you were talking about the de facto leaders in, in Syria making their way to, you know, this kind of elite club in Davos, this annual conference held every year. And of course, Syria has been a pariah state for more than a decade now under the former dictator Bashar Al Assad, who's now fled to Russia. But the new lot were in town. And just tell us a little bit about, you know, it's been sort of a month or so since they took over. You were in Syria. We talked about all the concerns that, you know, Syria faces. But what did you find? What did you see?
- [25:19]
Richard Engel
So I'll start with a caveat. I love Syria. I've always loved Syria. I've always loved Damascus. I always used to go as often as I could when I lived across the border in, in Beirut for about three years. And I would go to Syria as much as possible. And then I kept going over the years when I was covering the Syrian revolution that was more Idlib province, Aleppo. But you really, you know, when you're living with, with rebels and moving from place to place and sleeping in farmhouses and things, this was a decade long conflict. So I spent a lot of time and got to know the place quite, quite closely. And I've always found Damascus to be just charming and sophisticated. And it's beautiful. I mean, you, you remember Damascus. I mean it's, you go down in the, in the old markets there and the tiny warrens of alley is and this, the tiny sort of network of alleys, I should say. And it's just a place where you want to spend more time. The food is delicious. It's every, it's easy to engage in intellectual conversations. Just go into any shop. And people want to engage. They want to. They're aware of their political surroundings, they're aware of their own. It's. It's a great place. The. The new rebel government is really being. Getting its tone from the leader. He's the former formerly known as Al Jalani. Ahmad Al Shara is now his real name, that. The name that he's using publicly. He's trying to spread out and establish relations with Saudi Arabia, establish relations with Davos. Opening the border. Airlines are flowing in. You can now take direct flights on multiple different airlines that will land in Damascus. Damascus was never damaged during the war. So you walk around the streets, and not only are the shops open, they're full of merchandise. The merchandise that has been there for a long time, it was never. You know, sometimes they brought it out of the city to warehouses. But Damascus itself was the safe haven. So if anything, people came from the countryside with their goods and services and belongings and went into the. The castle of Damascus. So when you go there now, when I was there now, people were so happy to see me. They were opening up there. They want to get back and engage with the world. They can now exchange dollars again. And I went into a little shop and I bought a few things because, you know, it's Damascus after all. And I never thought I was going to be able to go back there because I'd spent time with the rebels who now became the government. I thought, okay, if Bashar al Assad stays in power, I'm never getting back here. And I went into some of the shops just to buy a few things. And they were so excited to be quoting the prices in dollars again. And they were talking among themselves, could you believe this? We're quoting in dollars. And they were very excited about it, happy to be doing business, but happy that they were sort of back engaged in the act of doing business in a way that made sense to them. So I think they're very excited in masses. They're lingering fears about this government. But the reason I went back this particular time was to focus on isis, because there is one portion of the country where ISIS lives on, and it is a real problem.
- [28:25]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah, just tell me about that, Richard. The problem of isis, because it has been an ongoing issue for the Syrians, and it has been something of concern. I remember when you and I were there at the end of last year when the country was so called, liberated from this ruthless dictator, there were questions being asked. I mean, even up until the last few weeks when, you know, Ahmed Al Sharar the de facto leader of Syria, now the leader of the rebels, wouldn't shake hands with certain female dignitaries who came to visit. There were a lot of questions about, well, you know, has he gone back to his Islamist roots? And there were also people pushing back, saying, listen, Bashar al Assad had a European wife, and he was shaking everyone's hand, and look what he did to the country. There were questions about whether alcohol would still be served in Damascus or whether everything would fall under Sharia law. So did you find the threat of ISIS is still very much real?
- [29:28]
Richard Engel
Yes. And you raise a very important point just how. Donald Trump doesn't have the monopoly on vanity. Islamist leaders don't have the monopoly on cruelty. Bashar al Assad was as secular as you get and modern, in a sense, in his tastes. I went to his palace. He liked modern art. He was a big supporter of the arts. He bought lots and lots of paintings. And I met one of his art dealers who knew his collection well, yet was still a cruel and horrible dictator, particularly toward the end. And we all saw what happened at the prisons. The area that is the most problematic in terms of ISIS is not under the control of the Syrian government. It's controlled by Kurds and controlled by U.S. forces. And the only reason, who are really, according to U.S. forces and the Kurds and many international observers, their presence is the only reason this area isn't just controlled by ISIS at the moment. This was the former ISIS heartland. The ISIS fighters never went away. Instead, what happened is U.S. troops, with the help of Kurds, have been fighting them off for the last 10 years and keeping them contained. And the Kurds have managed to. Each one gets a benefit out of this. So the Kurds, by fighting against isis, get American support, and they get a degree of autonomy in their own area. The Americans get to keep fighting isis, get a foothold in the region, which they appreciate. And isis, at the end, the net result is ISIS is contained to some refugee camps and a network of prisons. But I was just at those refugee camps. I was in those prisons. The Kurds are very nervous that one day they're going to wake up and Trump has signed them away in some deal or has given them to Turkey or has given that land to the Syrian government. And I went to this one camp called the Al Hol camp, and there were about 40,000 family members of ISIS. So imagine a camp out in the desert, because it's quite barren there, 40,000 people. It's supposedly guarded, but there are very few guards. Their prison breaks or attempted Prison breaks every single day, according to the people who ran it. They don't really know. I say about 40,000, but they don't exactly know how many people there. There's no census. The guards don't even go into the prison areas during the day because there's so few of them. The children have become so radicalized because the ISIS ideology lives on there and is getting stronger because they've just been sitting there since many of them, since 2019, getting more and more radical. Boys were coming up to me and going like this. Every time they would see, we're going to kill you. They were holding up a single finger, the ISIS symbol. They've been killing each other inside the prison. Every, when they do do raids, which is rare, they find weapons. Sometimes they find bodies that have been hastily buried. This, this is in the camp. And I, I asked the director what would happen if the US Troops left and US Support, because US Troops aren't at the facility, but they're nearby and they sort of have a little oversight. She said maybe we could hold out for a month, but after that, who knows?
- [32:45]
Gelder Hakim
You know, you know what, Richard? The latest report that I've seen is that forget U.S. troops leaving. There has been a trump order to freeze all international aid, and that includes money that pays for the salaries of the guards at the prisons. So many of them aren't even turning up to work. So you're talking about prison breaks, you know, once a day or, or whatever it might be. But these people, these Kurds who are looking after this prison, ensuring that there isn't an outbreak, actually are now not getting their salaries. What on earth is going to happen now when there is this aid freeze, when they potentially aren't even going to get paid? So, you know, why on earth would they come to work?
- [33:32]
Richard Engel
It's worse than that. They're also under attack by Turkey. So you have this camp, the Al Hol camp, which is guarded by the occurrence, and that's the next generation. And then you have a network of prisons, so roughly 10,000 there, some say 10, 15,000. So you've got an ISIS army in waiting because that's, that's a whole division of troops. And you have their family members and, and support and the next generation at a camp just down the street. The guards are strapped for money. They are not receiving much physical support, and they're being pulled away from these tasks of guarding to go fight Turkey on their front lines because Turkey opposes this US backed autonomous enclave and has been pushing for it to be destroyed. And for U.S. troops to leave. And Turkey says, we'll deal with the ISIS problem, don't even worry about it. Just get those troops out of there, end this, this Kurdish autonomous enclave and be done with it. And if the, if the, if those Kurds left today, left that prison, they'd be a prison break there tomorrow. If they left those camps, those people would leave tomorrow. And those people in the camps are already starting to figure out they can probably leave. When we went there, there was no electricity. And I asked several of the guards, I said, what happened to electricity? They keep tearing it down in the camp because they don't want their movements to be seen, particularly in the evening hours and at night when they go from one section to the next. So if you're, if you're running a prison camp and suddenly the inmates, you don't patrol it. When you do patrol it, you find weapons and bodies and they've turned down, just now, they've turned down all the lights and maybe those American troops down the, down the road are going to get, going to leave. Oh yes, and you're not getting paid and you're under attack.
- [35:18]
Gelder Hakim
And then you've got leaders talking about wanting to be part of the international community, turning up to Davos, meeting dignitaries in Damascus. It's just a tale of multiple Syrias which we've seen in the past. And there are many who are hoping that this won't crumble. But, you know, I guess I'd want to know. We talk about predictions, you know, your long term prediction on what's going to happen to Syria.
- [35:46]
Richard Engel
Well, I'm very nervous about those camps. It felt like a ticking time bomb and the, something has to, it's not for me to decide what should be done, but something needs to be done. You know, you could look at a bridge and it's, it's starting to crack and you can hear it and you can see the cars falling off of it. Anyone can tell you this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Anyone could tell you here with this isis, this ISIS camps imprisoned, this is a problem that needs to be addressed. How you address it, There's a bunch of different ways you can keep doing what they're doing now, which has a US Special forces present there, Kurdish autonomy, it upsets the Turks, but it is working, it is keeping the ISIS problem contained. Or you could support the new Syrian backed government, they could try and take it over. But that would mean you'd have to work out some sort of deal with the Kurds. There's various approaches that you could take. It just depends on what you want to do and if you're a believer in Kurdish autonomy or not. Turkey has a clear vision. Get rid of the Kurds, get rid of their political aspirations, and Turkey takes that area over. So the region is in shift. This ISIS part happens to be right on the cracks of where these big regional divisions are taking place. So as the region is shifting, unfortunately, this ISIS problem is right on top of one of those points of where it is shifting.
- [37:11]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah. So that's okay. Grim outlook on Syria. What about your prediction for the next week?
- [37:20]
Richard Engel
I'm worried about the ceasefire in Gaza. They have just started talking about how many dead hostages there are. And so far, the hostage releases have been relatively smooth. There's been delays and hiccups, but it has been working where the female hostages come out and the Palestinian prisoners are released. The handover between the, between Hamas and the Red Cross seems to be going along. Aid is flowing into Gaza. Okay, so far so good, globally speaking, at least in it right now. But once those numbers of the female hostages go down and bodies start coming out, particularly the Bibish family, and because they haven't come out now, there's more and more concerned that these, the, this family is, is among the dead, among the dead hostages. So as they start hitting over coffins of, of women and children and babies out of there, I think there's going to be an outcry. People are going to say we need to change the rules. I, I could see that as a, as an emotional inflection point. They know that having bodies coming out, that's part of the deal. So it's not, it's not that it hasn't been factored in, but I think it's going to be a, a very sensitive moment that could, could, could be a setback for the ceasefire.
- [38:41]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah, I, I guess I'm going to say something a little bit more predictable in the sense that we have seen sort of the turmoil created in the last couple of weeks by Donald Trump and places and countries that we didn't expect him to go after. He has. So, you know, I think that we're going to have a little bit more of that. Whether he's going to be more aggressive towards Canada or Mexico or, you know, have harsher words for Russia, because Vladimir, I think Volodymyr Zelensky, the president of Ukraine, has actually played his cards quite well so far in terms of he's made it clear to Donald Trump that we want a peace deal. It's the Russians who are getting in the way of any kind of deal. So he's said that multiple times and said it loud and clear. And I think Donald Trump has heard that because Donald Trump is now echoing that himself. He's saying, the Ukrainians have told me they want peace. So what's going on in Russia? And I think increasingly we're going to see him start to sprinkle, whether it's threats of further sanctions or he's going to try and do something more. Don't forget he promised that he could resolve this conflict in 24 hours. He's, as far as he's concerned, sorted out the situation in the Middle East. He's going to be looking, I think now to Ukraine, to Russia. And in every statement that he makes over the course of the next week or so, I think Russia will be sprinkled sort of throughout. So, Richard, before we go, we love getting questions from our listeners. They're really very good. And so we urge you to keep writing in. But we have one here from Cedric in Paris who got in touch via email and he says every episode you've just arrived from one or are leaving soon to another place in the world. How do you manage that from all perspectives? Planning, jet lag, cost friends and family, etc. How do you feel that you have a home somewhere?
- [40:45]
Richard Engel
Oh, that's a, that's a hard question. Why don't you start with that one?
- [40:48]
Gelder Hakim
One of the things that I often get is, you know, how do you go to some of these places and then how are you able to adjust back into normalcy? And I sort of say it's all relative, isn't it? No matter where you are in the world, everyone is dealing with something. But I find that I hibernate. I spend a lot of time with my family. I have a five and a half year old, very good friends with your little boy Theo. And I like to spend virtually every waking moment when I am back in town with them. And I guess things like, you know, family become, and friends become so much more crucial when you realize you are away dealing with such intense issues all of the time. But I was weirdly glad to be out of -13 in Washington and New York. And actually London's 4 degrees suddenly felt.
- [41:42]
Richard Engel
Quite nice in terms of strangeness, that, that disconnect of being on the road and seeing things that could be quite jarring or disturbing or going to an ISIS camp and little children are telling me they want to cut my throat. So that's a strange reality. And then coming back home to seeing you know my own 5 year old who is living in a different world like your 5 year old is. And like most 5 year olds are living in an ISIS bubble. So how do you shift gears? And for me, I've always found it, found it. Like I'm not moving from one place to another. I'm not leaving my home, which is familiar and it's a solid base and I'm going out into the wilderness. Since I travel so much as you do, it's always just a new destination on the road. And home is part of that destination. Home is part of the journey. And that's what I love about this job, is that the journey is actually really interesting and I like traveling and I like being on the journey. You know, how long do we get in life to, to travel around, look at this world, you know, 80 years. 85 years if we're lucky. Okay, well, the home is, is a stop. It's a stop that I love, but it's a, it's a part of this process that, that is, is, is emotion and I see it that way. And I'm, you know, my wife and Theo and Alexander, we're all on the ride together and, and, and, and hopefully understanding and, and having fun with it and enjoying it and not trying to harm others. That, that's, that's how I feel. Sort of keep it in my head and keep it sane. That I'm not somebody who works 9 to 5, wakes up in the morning, then goes out, does this strange job and then comes home and has a breakdown about it. No, it's all, it's all part of the process.
- [43:20]
Gelder Hakim
Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, we feel pretty privileged, no matter how long we've been doing it, to be doing this job again.
- [43:28]
Richard Engel
Thank you. For everyone who's subscribing, please send us emails. That was a great one. And send us your emails@theworldky.uk and you can watch us on YouTube.
- [43:39]
Gelder Hakim
Richard, it's always good to see you. Safe travels. I'm sure I'll find out exactly where you are and our listeners will find out next week.
- [43:47]
Richard Engel
Exactly. It's pretty easy to figure out. All right, Yalda, until then.
- [43:51]
Gelder Hakim
Good to see you, Richard. Goodbye.
- [44:06]
James Matthews
Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.
- [44:09]
Richard Engel
Together we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years and we're going to.
- [44:16]
James Matthews
Be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me.
- [44:26]
Gelder Hakim
James Matthews, me, Martha Calneck.
- [44:28]
James Matthews
And me, Mark Stone for Trump 100 every weekday at 6:00am Wherever you get your podcast.