Top secret scandal: How damaging is the war plan leak to Trump administration?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Top Secret Scandal: How Damaging is the War Plan Leak to Trump Administration?"

The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Episode Release Date: March 26, 2025
Host/Author: Sky News
Podcast Description:
Sky News’ Yalda Hakim and NBC’s Richard Engel team up to discuss their frontline experiences covering global events. In this episode, they delve into the implications of a significant war plan leak within the Trump administration, alongside discussions on Turkey's political unrest and protests in Tel Aviv.

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with hosts Yalda Hakim and Richard Engel addressing the unusually high volume of pressing global issues unfolding within just a few weeks of the Trump presidency. They aim to unpack the complexities surrounding recent political events, focusing primarily on Turkey, the Trump administration, and the situation in Tel Aviv.

Notable Quote:
[00:13] Richard Engel: "I can't remember a time in the almost 30 years I've been doing this business where there's so much to unpack in so many days."

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Turkey: Renewed Protests and Authoritarian Crackdown

Yalda and Richard discuss the resurgence of protests in Turkey against President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s increasingly authoritarian regime. They draw parallels between current demonstrations and the significant Gezi Park protests from a decade ago, highlighting the evolving demographics and motivations of the protestors.

Key Points:

• Economic Decline: Unlike the prosperous economy during the Gezi Park protests, Turkey is now grappling with severe inflation, leading to widespread economic hardship even among Erdoğan’s supporters.
• Disqualification of Ekram Imamodlu: The arrest and corruption charges against Istanbul's popular mayor, Ekram Imamodlu, have ignited the recent protests. Imamodlu was poised to be a potential presidential candidate, but his disqualification has left Erdoğan without a formidable opponent.
• Silence from Europe and the US: Both hosts express concern over the lack of international response to Turkey’s crackdown on dissent, questioning whether geopolitical considerations—such as Turkey's strategic importance—are overshadowing human rights concerns.

Notable Quotes:
[03:49] Richard Engel: "Erdogan is the OG of these tactics."
[07:09] Yalda Hakim: "He’s been the mayor... he refused to leave... he is the ruler of all."

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US Politics: Trump's Strategies and Public Discontent

The conversation shifts to the United States, where Richard and Yalda explore the dynamics within the Democratic Party and the public’s growing disenchantment. They discuss the strategic silence from Democrats amidst rising authoritarian fears and highlight how President Trump is redirecting public frustration towards figures like Elon Musk.

Key Points:

• Democratic Party’s Weak Position: With record low approval ratings, the current Democratic leadership appears disconnected from middle America, failing to galvanize support against Trump's administration.
• Elon Musk as a Scapegoat: The duo analyze how Musk has become a focal point for public anger, symbolizing the chaos and economic struggles instituted by Trump. Actions like mass layoffs and economic threats have made Musk an easy target for protests, diverting attention from Trump's policies.
• Economic Challenges: Concerns about a potential recession and Trump's tariff policies are contributing to public anxiety, yet there remains a lack of unified action or protest against these issues.

Notable Quotes:
[18:59] Yalda Hakim: "The Democratic Party in its current format wants to sit on the sidelines..."
[24:35] Richard Engel: "Somebody needs to go out in the streets and take action."

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War Plan Leak: The Atlantic’s Bombshell Story

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing a shocking revelation reported by The Atlantic. The magazine exposed a mishap within the Trump administration where classified war plans for Yemen were inadvertently leaked to journalist Jeffrey Goldberg via a Signal group.

Key Points:

• The Signal Group Incident: The group included high-ranking officials such as the Vice President, Secretary of Defense, National Security Advisor, and others. The accidental inclusion of Jeffrey Goldberg, a prominent journalist, led to the leak of detailed military operations against the Houthis in Yemen.
• Lack of Protocol: The incident underscores a severe lapse in protocol, as classified information was shared on an unapproved commercial platform. The Economist termed the leak “shambolic,” reflecting the disorganization within the administration.
• Responses and Repercussions: High-level officials, including Pete Hegseth, attempted to deflect responsibility by discrediting Goldberg. The National Security Council acknowledged the breach and initiated investigations to prevent future occurrences.
• Use of Emojis: The inappropriate use of emojis in the leaked messages highlighted the informal and unprofessional handling of sensitive information.

Notable Quotes:
[30:09] Richard Engel: "It was a proper WTF moment. Like, extraordinary, actually."
[31:02] Yalda Hakim: "On that signal group was the Vice President of The United States, J.D. Vance..."

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Israel: Renewed Protests and Internal Threats

The hosts touch upon the rising tensions in Israel, where protests in Tel Aviv mirror previous unrest related to governmental overreach and judicial reforms under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Key Points:

• Historical Context: The current protests are reminiscent of those leading up to the October 7 attacks, driven by public frustration with Netanyahu’s policies and perceived abuse of power.
• Internal Security Concerns: An insider from the Israeli security establishment suggests that the true threat to Israel's future lies within its own political and democratic institutions rather than external forces like Hamas or Hezbollah.
• Impact of Divided Focus: The internal divisions and preoccupation with governmental disputes weakened Israel's defense preparedness, providing Hamas with an opportunity to launch attacks.

Notable Quotes:
[36:50] Yalda Hakim: "We have gone back to October 6th."
[37:14] Richard Engel: "The attack pushed Hamas's hand because the enemy's killing itself."

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Predictions and Future Outlook

In the closing segment, Richmond Engel and Yalda Hakim offer their predictions on upcoming global events, focusing on the Houthis, the South China Sea tensions, and the US economy.

Key Points:

• Houthis and Yemen: They anticipate increased military actions against the Houthis, exacerbated by the recent embarrassment from the war plan leak.
• South China Sea and Taiwan: The situation remains volatile with China conducting aggressive military drills around Taiwan, raising concerns about potential conflict.
• US Economic Stability: Both hosts express uncertainty over the US economy, describing it as "recession roulette," with ongoing tariffs and economic policies under Trump fostering instability.

Notable Quotes:
[40:16] Yalda Hakim: "We are seeing Russian roulette as well."
[40:59] Richard Engel: "We are seeing Russian roulette as well."

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Conclusion

Richard and Yalda conclude the episode by reiterating the high stakes of the current geopolitical climate. They emphasize the need for vigilance and proactive measures to address the escalating authoritarian tendencies and political mismanagement witnessed in various regions globally.

Notable Quote:
[42:01] Richard Engel: "Until our next conversation then, Yalda, I can't wait."

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Takeaways

• Turkey's Political Instability: Erdoğan's authoritarian grip is tightening amid economic woes and political purges, with minimal international pushback.
• US Domestic Turmoil: The Democratic Party's struggles juxtapose Trump's maneuvers, leading to societal frustrations being misdirected towards non-political figures like Elon Musk.
• Security Lapses in the Trump Administration: The accidental leak of classified war plans highlights significant security flaws within the administration, raising concerns about future governance.
• Israel's Internal Strife: Internal political conflicts in Israel pose a more significant threat to national security than external adversaries.
• Global Predictions: Continued instability in Yemen, rising tensions in the South China Sea, and an uncertain US economy are poised to shape international relations in the near future.

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Transcript

[Yalda Hakim]

Hello, I'm Yalda, and you're listening to the World, and I'm currently in London.

[Richard Engel]

And I'm Richard Engel, and I am in Lisbon, just back from Ukraine. And, Yalda, as always, wonderful to see you. So much to talk about this week. We say that every week, and it's a cliche, but it's just fast. I can't remember a time in the, what, almost 30 years I've been doing this business where there's so much to unpack in so many days.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, I mean, that's what's incredible about this, Richard. We're sort of only eight and a half weeks into the Trump presidency, and every week it feels like something else. And, of course, I mean, for us and our listeners, I think, you know, that makes it fascinating because it really does feel like our time where we can unpack foreign news. Both you and I have been covering foreign news for decades. As you say, this feels like such an incredibly busy time.

[Richard Engel]

So this week, we're going to talk about three things. Turkey, Trump, and Tel Aviv. And they're tied together by one big concept which may be the biggest concept of our times right now. Resistance. In some countries, they are pushing back against corruption, executive takeover. And in some countries, particularly the United States, they're silent. So far, the US hasn't moved. Why is that? Let's talk about that today. And, Yalda, did you see this extraordinary story in the Atlantic where the key national security officials in the Trump administration accidentally leaked war plans for Yemen that were about to be carried out and later were carried out to one of the most prominent journalists in the United States?

[Yalda Hakim]

Blew my mind. It was a proper WTF moment. Like, extraordinary, actually. So we're gonna talk about that. You know, how a signal group that was created, which included the Vice President of the United States, the National Security Advisor, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, and the Editor in Chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg? I mean, extraordinary stuff.

[Richard Engel]

The normally very buttoned up economist described it as shambolic. And I think that that accurately describes it.

[Yalda Hakim]

All right, I heard amateur hour.

[Richard Engel]

That, too. And as always, don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Watch us on YouTube and write to [e-mail] and we've also launched a short survey.

[Yalda Hakim]

We really want to get a sense of your listening habits and make this podcast the best possible podcast. So please fill out the survey. It shouldn't take long, and the link is in the episode description.

[Richard Engel]

Let's get started.

[Yalda Hakim]

So, Richard, let's start with Turkey. Because, you know, this is a story. I mean, frankly, a couple of weeks ago, we spoke to the award winning novelist Elif Shafak, who spoke about her experiences in a Turkey that became more authoritarian under Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who has been involved in politics in the country for a quarter of a century. And at every twist and turn over the course of the last 10, 15 years, we've heard political commentators talk about the fact that Turkey has become more and more authoritarian. And I feel, I don't know about you, but just seeing these demonstrations over the course of the last few days and, you know, over a thousand people being rounded up and thrown into prisons, just a sense of deja vu, really. I feel like we've been here before. We've seen these images before in Turkey.

[Richard Engel]

We certainly have. I was covering them very closely. The last time there were major demonstrations like this, it was about a. About a decade ago. And they almost brought down Erdogan. And they are very much at the forefront of the demonstrator's mind. Some, some people want a repeat of that, obviously with a different outcome. Protesters lost last time. And others have learned lessons. Both sides have learned lessons. They know how this resistance game works. In. At the last time, it was called Gezi Park. There were hundreds of thousands of people out on the street that were trying to bring down Erdogan. And Erdogan used force. He cut the roads. Don't forget, Erdogan was the former mayor of Temple. He knows it. He grew up from a poor, tough neighborhood. He sold simit, the sort of Turkish bagels on the street and postcards. This was a guy who rose up through the ranks, became sort of a political Islamist, took over and then refused to leave. And through first he was prime minister and then was president, and then now he's kind of ruler of all. And he crushed those demonstrations 10 years ago. And I've been speaking to Turkish friends and colleagues, colleagues and analysts, and there's a new generation out on the streets. Most of the people who are out now are university students who didn't take part in the last ones. And they don't remember how bad it got when they got crushed. And then there were the mass arrest. And they're going it, they're going for it again. And they're using the lessons and a lot of the same symbols and imagery of the first round of protests. But Erdogan is, he won the last time. He knows what he's doing, too. He has the police forces, he has the security apparatus, the intelligence. But the key difference is this time, as opposed to last time, the economy. When Gezi park happened, the economy was booming in Turkey. Everybody was making money. The place was opening up. It was a hot tourist destination. Now they've had major inflation and everybody's gotten poorer, even Erdogan supporters.

[Yalda Hakim]

Richard, let's just remind people why there are these sudden demonstrations in Turkey. It follows the arrest of Istanbul's mayor, Ekram Imamodlu. He has been the May of Istanbul since 2019. He has now been accused of corruption and they have put charges against him, and he's currently in prison. Very popular guy in his early 50s. And he was going to be, you know, announced as the candidate in the presidential election, which will be held, or is supposed to be held in 2028. And I mean, parliament can call elections early in Turkey as well, but frankly, Erdogan constitutionally cannot run again unless snap elections are called early. And then he can run and people don't really see a challenger. Except for this mayor of Istanbul, popular guy, you know, has now been charged with corruption. His degree has been taken away from him.

[Richard Engel]

Yeah, they said he never went to college. Of course he went to college. But they're saying, no, no, he actually, he never went to college or the college that he attended didn't qualify. Therefore, we're going to disqu. Disqualify him from running, because you can.

[Yalda Hakim]

Be disqualified from running if you don't have a college degree.

[Richard Engel]

He's been the mayor. He's been candidate. It's never come up before. It reminded me a lot of the campaign against, by now, President Trump against Obama. President Obama saying he was born in Kenya, he can't run for the presidency. He doesn't qualify because of his missing a key credential that he had. But you start saying it enough times, they also have a history. You remember when he was elected mayor. First, it was a big controversy. Erdogan was furious, and he said the election was false and also to draw a parallel to what happened in the U.S. so Erdogan lost, or his party lost Istanbul. And he knows how important winning the mayor of Istanbul is the pathway to power economically. He took that path to power and he said, you know, that election was false. And unlike in the US after January 6, when President Trump wanted to rerun the election or have recounts or sort of have a do over, they did do a do over and the mayor won again. So this is. There's. So first he was elected. It was a big shock. He said, no, that election is invalid. They reran it, he won again, then he was gonna run for president, and then suddenly he has no university degree and he's corrupt and he's been arrested and the students are out on the streets again.

[Yalda Hakim]

But you know what I think is most fascinating, Richard, is the silence from Europeans. I remember in 2013, there was statements made about concerns that the Europeans had, that Erdogan was using force. So big question about why Europe and why the United States is currently quiet about this crackdown again, on protesters, teachers, journalists, anyone who's currently on the streets being rounded up. And Erdogan is describing, describing these demonstrations as evil, as violent. And this is the reason and the excuse he's giving for rounding these people up and throwing them in prison. I remember being there also during the 2016 coup, which was also quite extraordinary. And I was standing at this life point in Taksim Square, just off Taksim Square, and overnight, thousands, tens of thousands of teachers and journalists being rounded up, thrown into prison.

[Richard Engel]

At one point, thousands of professionals, journalists, teachers, lawyers, judges, thrown in jail.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And so again, we're seeing this sort of silence from European leaders, from the United States. And I guess this time round, I would have to say that, you know, as ever, Turkey is critical. It's crucial. And we often on this podcast talk about spheres of influence. You know, we've spoken about the Russian sphere of influence, the Chinese sphere of influence, that the rules based order is under threat by those who built it, namely the United States. The Trump administration is sort of reshaping transatlantic relations, for example. But there is no doubt that when you look at, say, the Iranians or the Turks, I mean, certainly, you know, Erdogan has this tendency to reshape his region and reintroduce the Ottoman Empire. In how he sees that, we've seen that in Syria. We're seeing him now really come up as crucial player when it comes to Europe, the United States, him being some kind of broker in the war in Ukraine, for example. You know, will the United States have to lean on Turkey for peacekeeping forces? Erdogan does have a relationship with Vladimir Putin. So is that the reason for this silence around Erdogan's crackdown, this concern that he has is, you know, moving more and more towards turning Turkey away from its democratic roots and moving towards a more authoritarian state?

[Richard Engel]

I don't know. It's a great question. Why is it happening? Is it happening just because frustrations there suddenly snapped and because of the economy and because of sort of pressure that has been building for the last several years? Because there's also been a crackdown on freedom of expression. If you tweet the wrong thing in Turkey or question the government or even question economic data about the government, they will come and find you and arrest you. It's gotten rough. So maybe it's just domestic that the boiling point has reached and now the water is spilling over the pot. Or it's part of a larger trend that is global, where authoritarians with a vision of history are using this moment to enact their vision, whether the people want it or not, but they are bringing their country to what they believe its destiny should be.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. I actually want us to respond to some of these questions that we're getting from listeners on Turkey. And I want to put that to you a couple of these questions. One from C. Paxo, who's saying, is Erdogan emboldened by Trump and Europe's focus on Russia? We've sort of touched on that a little bit, haven't we?

[Richard Engel]

I think clearly. You think so that seems like that's your take on it, right?

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, it's what I sort of just said in terms of is Turkey too much of an important player? I don't think that Erdogan's necessarily suddenly emboldened by Vladimir Putin or Donald Trump. This has been Erdogan's playbook. You lived in Turkey. I think it may be the other way around.

[Richard Engel]

Trump saw or Erdogan done. You know, he's. He's been doing longer than anyone else.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, he's the.

[Richard Engel]

He's the OG of these tactics.

[Yalda Hakim]

But also, you lived in Turkey alongside many other foreign journalists. And unfortunately, unlike Turkish journalists, you know, who are in prison. Well, fortunately, I mean, you have an ability to leave the country and you move and you left because, I mean, so many foreign journalists that I've spoken to have said I'd come home and I could see that my whole apartment had been ransacked by the authorities. You know, it became impossible to act as a journalist in Turkey because of this sort of iron fist approach that Erdogan was taking on the country following the coup. He used that as an excuse. And no doubt he's going to crack down again on dissent using this very moment. He's done this for more than 20 years. So I don't necessarily think that he's embarrassing. Emboldened by Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin or what they're doing. I think he's always done it. He just knows how to capitalize on these moments. I don't know what you think.

[Richard Engel]

I totally agree with you. I think, yes, these sort of trends in history are important, and certain leaders will try and surf them for their own benefits. But I think in Erdogan's case, he knew what he was doing right from the start. He has one of the most famous quotes in all of the books and all the literature written about authoritarian governments, particularly those who come through elections. In a quote that he later regretted, he said, while as mayor, democracy is like a tram. You use it until you get to your stop and then you get off. And that's a paraphrase, but you get the point. And many people thought that's what happened in Turkey. He was elected and then said, okay, that's enough. Now it's now it's his turn to bring his vision to the country. And if you speak out against it, then you're a traitor that you're going against his nationalist dream to bring the country back and make it great again. So why do you. Are there more questions? You want to go? More questions, or do you want to.

[Yalda Hakim]

Come back to me? But, I mean, we can just take.

[Richard Engel]

A couple more people.

[Yalda Hakim]

Let's go again. Shafi Bajori said, how will the events in Turkey affect chances of EU membership? I mean, again, I think Turkey has become such a player in this game. You remember the migrant crisis of 2015, and Erdogan very effectively was able to, frankly, get a lot of funding from the EU and say, well, I'm going to open the gates, or I'm not going to open the gates. You help me manage this crisis because they're all coming through Turkey, so I can either let them all in and flood your country or I'll keep them here.

[Richard Engel]

He hit his hand on the migrant tap. Their European leaders hated him for it.

[Yalda Hakim]

And so I wonder, I mean, at this point, does Erdogan really need EU membership, or has he found other clever ways to make himself a crucial player within. Whether it's negotiating with the United States about troops, peacekeeping forces in Russia, or whether it's, you know, seeing the strain he's actually due, by the way, to go, I believe, early next month to the United States, to the Oval Office. And, you know, there have been moments of strain between Trump and Erdogan. In the first Trump presidency, you'll remember there was an American pastor that was kept in prison, and Donald Trump sort of became, you know, clear that he became obsessed with the situation, was like, let him out or I'm going to crash the lira.

[Richard Engel]

Christian evangelicals are a big part of his base, too.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And he crashed the lira. I was in Turkey at the time and I just said it.

[Richard Engel]

He's like, I'm going to crash your economy. And then did it. And then the priest got out.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And Donald Trump could. And so for all of the sort of language that Erdogan uses, the strongman tactics and language, at the end of the day, Donald Trump was able to say, I'm going to do this to your economy. And within sort of a day, the lira had crashed. So it'll be interesting to see what issues are raised in the Oval Office around human rights and the protesters. I suspect the focus will be what can Turkey do to assist the United States when it comes to negotiating peace with Russia and Ukraine?

[Richard Engel]

I think I can answer this one really quickly. I don't think Turkey is going to be part of the EU anytime soon. Certainly not under Erdogan. It's not something that's talked about in Turkey. It used to be a real national obsession. It's not so much anymore. Now they talk, talk, as you're saying, a more Turkey centric talk about a more Turkey centric policy that can have relations with China, can have relations with Russia, it's part of NATO, it can have side relations with the U.S. it has military deals. They're sort of playing a lot of different games at the same time, political games. And Erdogan, frankly, has played them pretty well. I mean, he's not. You say this a lot about people. Oh, he's not stupid. He's really good. He's been doing this for a long time. He knows this game. He's one of the most seasoned political operators out there right now. Maybe him and Putin and Xi are probably the most seasoned modis, quite seasoned. But he's certainly in the top four or five dominant world leaders on the stage right now, because he's been doing it a long time. He knows why he's doing it, and he's not afraid to use violence against his opposition. But I had a different question, Nelda. It's not so much about the silence from the United States about Turkey. It's more about the silence in the United States. I'm so struck by the. By the silence, by the comparative silence, where people in the US talk about their fears and their fears of executive takeover and the loss of democracy and a dictatorship and all of the things that they're sensing right now, but they're not doing anything. And I've been thinking and thinking and thinking why. I've come up with a few ideas, but I want. I would love to hear Yours?

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, you know, I want to point our listeners to the CNN poll that came out recently which talked about the fact that the approval rating for the, the Democrats, the Democratic Party is at a record low. And a while ago we talked about Donald Trump's approval rating being quite good. I think that's also now dropped. But, but for the Democrats, it's in an all time low. And the question that I continue to ask is where are the Democrats? When you speak to the current makeup of the Democratic Party and the leadership, they're almost waiting on the sidelines like, you know, oh, well, Trump will hang himself and he has about 11 months till the midterms.

[Richard Engel]

So they're still saying, well, he'll hang himself. We can get to the midterms and the, the ship of state will right itself. And there are others, and there are plenty of other historical examples who say that doesn't always work. Sometimes when there's a fire on board the ship, it doesn't right itself. Sometimes it sinks to the bottom. And I have sort of been mulling this over and think that people aren't out and they might, although Americans generally, they're not not in favor of demonstrating.

[Yalda Hakim]

But, but Richard, what do you think they should be coming out on the streets and demonstrating about? You know, are there specific things right now that you feel like, for example, in Turkey, you know, they're saying, well, you can't just throw this mayor behind bars, charge him for corruption and you know, now you're rounding up protesters. What specifically are you saying that they now need to at this point come out and fight against?

[Richard Engel]

Well, I'm not saying that they do. I'm not calling people out onto the street, streets. But what I'm saying is there's a lot of anger and nervousness and complaints and you just turn on the TV every day and they're talking about how anger, how angry they are and how scared and that democracy is being eroded, but they're not doing anything. And I think it's because so far it's lacked a spark. That's one of the things I thought about in Turkey, there is this one. They have previous experience at it. They know the rules of this road. They've seen how this, the process plays out in the streets before. But there's not been a spark. In Turkey. The opposition candidate who was twice, you know, he was questioned and then won and then won again, was arrested in the U.S. there's still this kind of general sort of non specific pain. It's like they have a headache or a Malaise, and they're, they're feeling very upset. I speak to a lot of my friends. I'm American at the end of the day and. But I have a little bit of a different perspective. So I'm an American abroad, so I'm watching my country from the outside in and it seems like there hasn't been a spark. And every time there's a, it's like lighting a fire. You know, there needs to be a base of discontent and then some sort of match that's dropped on it. And I don't think that match has fallen in the United States. It's not for me to drop the match. I'm just saying when it does, I think we haven't seen it yet. I think the pain people are feeling is too non specific at this stage. People are surprised by it. I think the Democrats are still in a sort of maybe suspended disbelief, shock, paralysis. Some of them are having, you know, wishful thinking that this will all correct itself. And maybe it will correct itself, but we'll see how this process goes. But you know who's not sitting flat foot is Trump himself. And if you look at the actions, I think they're very much that he's taking over really over the last couple of weeks. They're very much designed to preempt people, people coming out onto the streets, cracking down hard on universities, cracking down hard on lawyers, cracking down hard on journalists when his cabinet isn't leaking them secret.

[Yalda Hakim]

We're gonna get to that.

[Richard Engel]

We'll get to that in a minute. But it seems like he's preemptively going after those who could cause him problems and go out on the streets. Because if you look reasonably who's gone out on the streets since the 60s with great effect recently, Black Lives Matter and pro Palestinian demonstrators, and both of those have been shut down hard. And lastly, why I think they're not on the streets yet is I think they're disoriented. I don't think there's been a spark yet. They're new to this. And Elon Musk is absorbing a lot of the anger. He's the lightning rod. So instead of lashing out against the sort of untouchable president and, and going through the security forces and going that route, the anger is going against the richest man in the world who's firing everybody and shows up with a chainsaw, an easy target, almost a Batman like opposition character. The richest man in the world says, ah, I'm gonna fire all the government employees. He's an easy guy to Dislike. And he's become a rallying cry for the opposition or a focus for the opposition.

[Yalda Hakim]

What a clever move by Donald Trump to have a hit, you know, a fall guy. Because in Elon Musk, we have now someone who's doing all the dirty work and is the, the face of it. And people are responding and reacting. We're seeing Tesla cars, you know, once the symbol of the, the liberals. You know, if you, because they were.

[Richard Engel]

Green and they were, you know, green.

[Yalda Hakim]

It was a symbol of, of environmental revolution. These Tesla cars. If you sort of made it, whether it was in Capitol Hill or you're a teacher that made a bit of money, you'd buy yourself a Tesla car.

[Richard Engel]

Aspirational.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, it was aspirational. And, you know, SpaceX, Tesla, Elon Musk was the face of these companies and it was seen as a positive thing. Now it is a symbol of not just MAGA and Trump's America, but it is dark maga. You know, Elon Musk suddenly is symbolizing, you know, the sacking of federal government.

[Richard Engel]

People have expressed and are expressing their frustration with Trump and this general feeling that democracy is being ripped away from them. But they're not out on the streets. But they're angry with the head of Doge, they're angry with Elon Musk, they're angry with the richest man in the world who showed up with a chainsaw and is cutting government jobs left, right and center.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, I mean, he's really become a symbol. And the easiest target for many people has, has been these Tesla vehicles. We've seen physical attacks on Tesla, you know, charging stations and vehicles set alight. They've been keyed as well. I've seen videos and images of people keying their cars on, and they've been captured by dash cams and other cameras. And of course, the share prices have fluctuated, they've gone up and down and there's been a lot of volatility. But, you know, when I think the protest, protests may begin, Donald Trump went, you know, out during every campaign and not just spoke about immigration, he spoke about the economy, he spoke about egg prices, he spoke about the fact that Joe Biden inflation had gone through the roof and grocery prices are so, so expensive. You know, eggs cost so much money in the United States. Now people are really struggling, when in fact, the truth is that, you know, I remember six months ago, the idea of a recession was unheard of in. Unemployment was at an all time low. The Economist had this front page article which said, you know, the envy of the World, America's economy, the envy of the world. Who would think now that Donald Trump would be saying, ah, recession, maybe, you know, maybe it'll happen.

[Richard Engel]

I'm not sure if the economy's gotten bad enough that people are going to go out in the streets. And I certainly don't think keying a bunch of fancy cars is going to do anything except maybe, maybe make people feel a little bit better. You know, you. You know, we do this for a living. I do almost nothing but go to places during times of radical political change, whether that's a revolution or a war or a civil war. And keying a bunch of Teslas, setting them on fire, hit them with baseball bats or Molotov cocktails or whatever is not going to stop a rising authoritarian. If that's what you think is happening. You got to go out. You got to go out in the streets. You got to. Gotta take action and stand up for rights. And so far, the Democrats, as you said, aren't taking that approach. They're saying that the ship of state will correct itself and we will see. We'll get him in the midterms. He's doing so many crazy things that he's gonna get voted out or he'll lose enough power in the midterms. Maybe it's the right call.

[Yalda Hakim]

There is a reason why the Democratic Party lost this election, and it is, frankly, because the party is out of touch with middle America. You know, when you go to these farming communities in places like Wisconsin, you realize people are struggling, you know, in the Midwest, in these swing states, and they will ultimately decide the outcome of these presidential elections. And they don't feel that this particular party, the Democratic Party in its current format, represents them or is fighting for them. It is the party of the elite, and they, in their current format, want to sit on the sidelines and say, well, we'll just wait till the midterms and people will be angry enough to vote, you know, in one way or another, and we'll be back. And yet again, they'll be out of touch. And there is a reason why we are seeing the rise of MAGA and the support for Donald Trump. You know, that he was able to make a comeback in the way that he was, despite the court cases, despite the, frankly, near constitutional crisis that we're currently seeing in the United States.

[Richard Engel]

Maga, a leader like him or hate him, Trump is in charge of that movement. And on the other side, as you say, nobody trusts the Democrats. No new leader has merged. We'll see if one does emerge. Should we take a break and then come back and talk about that just jaw dropping story.

[Yalda Hakim]

I clearly am desperate to be beeped every week, Richard, but I really had a what the moment when I saw that added onto a signal chat. We'll be back after the break. Foreign.

[C]

Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.

[Richard Engel]

Together we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable but.

[C]

Fascinating four years and we're going to be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha.

[Richard Engel]

Calmick and me, Mark Stone for Trump.

[C]

100 every weekday at 6am wherever you get your podcast.

[Richard Engel]

Welcome back. So let's get into that article. The Atlantic magazine, one of the most prestigious journals in America, had this article from the Edge editor and I'll set it up briefly. So Jeff Goldberg, who covers national security and has won every award you can think of and is not a Trump insider. So there was a group established on this app, Signal, and on the group are all these senior cabinet members and they're all discussing top level national security stuff.

[Yalda Hakim]

On that signal group was the vice president of The United States, J.D. vance, Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, Marco Rubio, Mike Waltz, the national security security advisor and Tulsi Gabbard, who, you know, we talked about last week when I was in Delhi, the national director of Intelligence and Jeffrey Goldberg.

[Richard Engel]

And they were talking about Yemen and they were talking about Yemen and where they're going to bomb and how they're going to bomb it and the calculations of should we send them a message? Should we do it now? Should we do it a month from now? And then they talk about and they send attachments with the military plans of how they're going to bomb Yemen and the targets and the kind of munitions and weapons they're going to use and real detailed military plans. This can't be right. It can't be right. And then the targets are hit some two hours later.

[Yalda Hakim]

He Googled it and he saw it.

[Richard Engel]

This is the plan. They just emailed this plan around to me. Then he starts writing to get a comment saying what just happened here? And now the White House is saying, well, it's looking into how someone was inadvertently brought into this message. But he raises his in his article that there's no protocol for this. The US Military has plenty of encrypted apps. This is just a group of inner circles swapping messages on a commercial software that's not approved by the US Government to send any classified information. And as I said at the top of the show, the Economist described it as shambolic. Other people described as like a clown show. It's like, what is wrong? You just have this inner circle and you're just passing around intelligence information about military plans. You have a journalist invited in, one of the most prominent journalists in America invited in the group. You don't even notice. And then when he asks you about this, can you explain what just happened here? Did you hear what his response was?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, Pete Hegseth.

[Richard Engel]

Pete Hegseth. He said, you're talking about a deceitful and highly discredited so called journalist. He then praised the military operation, saying, we will ultimately decimate the Houthis. So his response was, you're talking about a highly discredited so called journalist. Deceitful? Yeah, I mean, they just let him in on this call.

[Yalda Hakim]

They let him in. Extraordinary that they basically accidentally included him in a war plan. And I think what was interesting, I looked at some of the exchanges of the messages, Richard, and with all the emojis, the emojis, the fist punch emojis, once the operations were completed against the.

[Richard Engel]

Hoop, you know, American flag fire, I saw that, I was like, come on, guys.

[Yalda Hakim]

The use of emojis, I think the language around the Europeans calling the Europeans freeloaders, and JD Vance saying, you know, I don't know if this is a good idea to launch strikes.

[Richard Engel]

Explain to people how that came up. Because it was a strike, it was about a strike on Yemen to attack the Houthis. And the Europeans came, who were disrupting.

[Yalda Hakim]

The shipping lanes, who are disrupting the.

[Richard Engel]

Shipping lanes, and who are disrupting the shipping lanes. And there already have been military operations, operations against them. And the US did carry out this military operation. And a lot of countries, including Europe, absolutely support military operations against the Houthis because of the shipping lines. So how is it that the Europeans became freeloaders in all of this?

[Yalda Hakim]

Because ultimately, JD Vance was saying that he doesn't think these strikes are a good idea because it benefits the Europeans. Once these shipping lanes are freed and the Houthis are targeted, it doesn't necessarily benefit the United States. It benefits Europe more. And again, they're freeloading off the United States because it's only the United States that can launch these sorts of strikes on the Houthis and stop them once and for all. And so there was a series of messages about, we really just need to focus on the messaging that only we can do it. And the Biden administration failed. How loath they were to help Europeans, these freeloading, pathetic Europeans who have to keep leaning on the United States and it's only America that can do this. And then the use of the emojis, I mean, it was quite something.

[Richard Engel]

So is it going to make a difference or is this going to be another story where people go, oh, my God, could you believe this?

[Yalda Hakim]

It's just part of the chaos and the circus that is unfolding. And while Pete Hegseth can sort of deflect and say that he's a deceitful and highly discredited so called journalists, the National Security Council has admitted that this has happened. They said they're reviewing it and that, you know, they're going to try and figure out how a number was added. I mean, frankly, the number was added and that's how it happened.

[Richard Engel]

And to be clear, he didn't, this journalist didn't hack his way into this call. He was invited in. And, you know, you can't do, if you were in a secure group, even on an app like this, I can't barge in. You have to bring me in.

[Yalda Hakim]

And by the way, I thought Jeffrey Goldberg was being incredibly responsible, actually, because there are parts of.

[Richard Engel]

He redacted it.

[Yalda Hakim]

He redacted. And he also said that there are military operations that were discussed in there that should an adversary of the United States get hold of it, it could put troops in danger on the ground. I'm not going to.

[Richard Engel]

He didn't just run the transcript or print the transcript, which was responsible, I think.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yes. And part of this, what the Houthis say they're doing is in solidarity, they say, with Gaza. And one of the reasons why they're disrupting their shipping lanes in the Red Sea is because they want to stand with Gaza. And of course, we've been speaking for weeks, Richard, about the fact that there was concern that this ceasefire, this fragile ceasefire would collapse. But, you know, I was speaking to someone from the Israeli security establishment who ultimately said to me, it won't be Hamas that will threaten Israel's future. It won't be Hezbollah, it won't be Iran. It'll be the threat from within, the threat against our constitution, the threat against our democracy, the threat by this government and the far right elements within this government. And he said, we feel when we see these demonstrations and the tens of thousands of people out on the streets of Tel Aviv again, that we have gone back to October 6th. And what he means by that is, of course, we saw all of those people come out on the streets of Tel Aviv in Jerusalem protesting against Benjamin Netanyahu because of changes that he wanted to bring to the judicial reforms that he wanted to introduce at the time.

[Richard Engel]

And they're back on the streets in Tel Aviv. And this latest round was triggered after the firing of Israel's internal security chief, the head of the Shiite. But it is also part of this general frustration, this general feeling among many in Israel that Netanyahu is abusing his power and has long been doing it. People forget that people think that this current conflict began on October 7th. It did. But there was also October 6th and 5th and 4th. There were hundreds of thousands of people out on the streets in the weeks before and months before the October 7 attacks against Netanyahu because people thought he was taking over the government and was, was too cozy with far right parties who wanted to limit everything from abortion to, to family rights. And many people believe that was one thing that Hamas was watching, and I'm watching very closely and decided this is, it would be a good opportunity to attack. Now, while Israelis were divided and focused on a, you know, inward. The attack took a long time to plan. But the fact that the Israelis were fighting themselves is, according to the analysis, tipped Hamas's hand. It, it sort of pushed them to act because they're like, well, this is a great opportunity to do this because the enemy's killing itself.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, I, I mean, and, and, you know, you and I, I, I, I don't know. We'll probably both be back in the region shortly. I'm, I'm sure you will be, given how things are currently unfolding. But we should.

[Richard Engel]

Richard, my son, he's happy to have me home.

[Yalda Hakim]

I know. Actually, my son asked about your son the other day, so we gotta get him together, get them back together. But Richard, we should do our weekly predictions. Of course.

[Richard Engel]

I have my crystal ball. I just, you know, finished polishing it, so we're in luck.

[Yalda Hakim]

It's really hard, I find predictions these days because I feel like there's going to be some kind of bombshell over the next day or so, either in the Middle east or, you know, something that the Trump administration says does.

[Richard Engel]

So I'll start since I've got the ball out ready. I think the Houthis are going to be back in the center of things, not just because of what happened in that article we were talking about. There seems to have been a decision made that Trump wants to go after freedom of shipping and Houthis are blocking freedom of shipping in relation to Gaza. And, and President Trump has already given Netanyahu more or less a green right to green light to continue in Gaza. So I don't think he has any ideological sympathy for the Houthis or their cause. And now since they've been embarrassed by this article, this administration has proven one thing. Every time it's embarrassed or everything it's cornered, it pushes back and it pushes back harder. But I think in light of what's the breakdown of ceasefire in Gaza, the light of this embarrassment, I think they hit the Houthis even harder for me.

[Yalda Hakim]

Richard, you know, I think I'm be watching a couple of things. Long term, I'm going to continue to watch the situation in the South China Sea as well as the encirclement of Taiwan, China's readiness for war. We're seeing warships conducting all sorts of military drills around Taiwan. And I think that is something that we need to keep a very close eye on going forward. But also we spoke a little bit earlier about the economy and it feels very much like Donald Trump is playing recession roulette with the the economy. And like we said, you know, it was seen as the envy of the world just a few months ago.

[Richard Engel]

Recession roulette, that's a good one. That's a good. Did you like yours? I like that a lot. Did you have to use or did.

[Yalda Hakim]

You say Russian roulette?

[Richard Engel]

That too.

[Yalda Hakim]

Recession roulette, exactly. We are seeing Russian roulette as well.

[Richard Engel]

I might borrow that one from.

[Yalda Hakim]

Why don't you borrow that one. I'll name check it, check this. But you know, when it's really hard, right. I think for economists to predict whether recession is coming or not. And we remember the 2008, 2009 global financial crisis, you know, when the global economy completely melted down and then a recession, recession followed and of course Covid. It was hard to predict that Covid was going to come and crash the economy and of course cause recessions. But people are concerned about the strength of the dollar and concerns about the global economy in general. Every time Donald Trump says tariffs, we see the impact it has on the markets.

[Richard Engel]

Well, until our next conversation then, Yalda, I can't wait. And thanks everyone for listening and, and please keep it up. The numbers are growing. Tell your friends, write in. The questions we got today were great. A lot on Turkey, but write in about anything, anything you hear, anything that strikes your fans, anything you're curious about. All questions are welcome and you could write them to the worldky.uk Richard, really.

[Yalda Hakim]

Great to see you and thank you so much to all of our listeners for listening this week. Goodbye.

[Richard Engel]

Bye.

[C]

Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.

[Richard Engel]

Together, we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years.

[C]

And we're going to be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthew, me, Martha Kalnick. And me, Mark Stone for Trump 100 every weekday at 6:00am Wherever you get your podcast.