← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Trump versus Xi: Who will win the battle of the superpowers in Beijing?
00:25:11
Loading summary
Transcript46 lines
- [00:00]
A
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters.
- [00:04]
B
But when it's for a hospital system,
- [00:06]
A
they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery, so you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:33]
B
Sky News, the full story first. Hello, it's me, Yalda, and I'm currently in London.
- [00:48]
A
And me, Richard Engel, and I'm in Lisbon. You know, he runs 1.4 billion people with a pretty iron fist. He loves his country, I can tell you that. President Xi, I look forward to being there. A lot of good things can happen. Now we'll be talking about, I mean, he'll bring up Taiwan, I think, more than I will.
- [01:14]
B
So a big week for President Trump. He will be heading to China to meet with Xi Jinping. And it's the first time, Richard, that a US President has traveled to China in nine years. It's also also in many ways politically awkward because, of course, he is in this middle of this war with Iran, and Iran is very much closely aligned with China. So let's break that down in terms of what exactly is gonna happen.
- [01:41]
A
So we'll unpack China. And the New York Times has a piece on alleged abuses of Palestinians by Israeli forces, and it's caused a lot of shock, outrage, criticism. I spoke to one of the Palestinian men who's featured in this New York Times article a few years ago. So I want to talk that story as well.
- [01:59]
B
And as always, follow us on Spotify and Apple. Write to us as well. The usual place, the worldatsky.uk and you can watch us, of course, on YouTube. Just look for the world with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim. Okay, let's get going.
- [02:23]
A
So before we get started and talk all things China, I just want to ask you, y', all, I saw on your social media that you were at the BAFTAs over the weekend, which is a very prestigious British television award. And you were there. I was.
- [02:36]
B
Well, it's all about the glitz and glamour@the Baftas. And of course, this was the the television awards, so lots of TV stars and some a journalism category as well. We were nominated for a program that we'd put together on Gaza.
- [02:49]
A
I remember.
- [02:50]
B
And we flown in one of our journalists who is currently living in exile, but she really is the backbone of our coverage In Gaza. She works with a team from within Gaza, camera crews, camera operators who are risking their lives and, and some have lost their lives to tell us about what's happening there. So we had Amirah with us and really for us, that was the story of the night. We didn't win the award, but it was great to get the recognition and also have Amira in town.
- [03:18]
A
Wonderful. You can't win every time. There's a lot of, a lot of great stuff out there. But wonderful that you were able to, to bring her in because the, the, the work that the Palestinian journalists are doing in Gaza and have been doing since the start of this really from October 7th attack and beyond, has been under extraordinarily harsh conditions. I mean, it's been the deadliest place in the world for journalists. But today we're going to be talking about China. We'll talk about the Palestinians as well. But let's set the stage here. As you said, first trip in nine years. President Trump and Xi have had sometimes close relations, sometimes it looked like the US And China are about to break into to a trade war. What are you expecting? What are your sources telling you?
- [04:01]
B
Yeah. You know, Richard, as we know, Donald Trump has often expressed admiration for Xi Jinping as a strong man, as someone he admires. He sees China as a formidable rival. And of course, it does play into the great power competition that the, the two sides face. The two last met in 2025, late 2025 in Busan, in South Korea. And of course, once this Iran, Donald Trump postponed his trip to China and the two are going to be meeting. I guess one could argue that Xi Jinping is meeting a now much more weakened US President. He's unpopular at home, he's tried a bunch of things and some would say those things have failed. And on top of that, I don't want to speak for Americans and you know better and you've spent time recently in the United States, but it does seem like the American public is also fed up with him. Grocery prices are going up, gas prices are going up as a result of this war. And Donald Trump is building a billion dollar ballroom. And I think when you look at the situation he's gotten himself into now, certainly around Iran, it's this quagmire that frankly is trying to get himself out of. So it might be useful, Richard, if we break it down into a couple of sections, you know, we can talk about this war that Donald Trump is in and China's positioning on that, and then we can talk about some of the Other issues.
- [05:32]
A
Sure. Well, China's made it no secret that it wants to talk about Taiwan. Chinese officials have said that China, that Taiwan is at the core of China's core interests. So the heart of the heart of the matter is Taiwan and I. They clearly want President Trump to step away from Taiwan, to stop selling them as many weapons, to slow down weapon sales that are in the pipeline and basically make Taiwan's position vis a vis China weaker. Another is certainly AI. The US And China are AI rivals. They're racing each other. China has Deepseek, which has been making major technological strides. The US has a variety of AI companies, ChatGPT just being one of them. But also this major breakthrough recently with Mythos from Anthropic. Now, Mythos was an AI tool. For those of you who missed it, it's a big deal. It was a AI application that Anthropic developed and then immediately said, it's so dangerous, it's so powerful, we're not going to release it to the public because it had the. Has the ability to find flaws in software, to break encryption, to discover passwords, and that if Anthropic released this to the public, it would do havoc, it would wreak havoc on the world's computer system. So it only released a select number of copies and gave them to the US Government and key industries so that they could basically check themselves in theory, to make sure that they don't have any, you know, violations so that they couldn't be display exploited by this technology if someone else had it. And then lastly, as we began talking about the war in Iran, China wants this war over, and China is making no secret of that. Chinese officials are increasingly public about the fact that they want to open up the Strait of Hormuz, stop this economic headache and move on to other three, to other things. So I think those three baskets, Yalda, seem to be the most important. Taiwan and American weapons, weakening Taiwan and its relations with the US as one AI and then lastly, Iran and ending the war. So, well, let's, let's dive into each one of them. Where do you want to start?
- [07:51]
B
So it would be good for me, I think. And if you've just come back from Israel to sort of start with the pressing issue of the day, you know, I think that Donald Trump will make a statement and say that the Chinese have said that they will work on talking to both sides, especially the Iranians, to try and get them to negotiate in a way that the Americans believe is doable. Because right now, when you look at the ceasefire plan that the Iranians have come up with, it feels maximalist. And the reason they take a more maximalist approach, what is difficult for those negotiating with the Iranians is they're not quite ever sure what the Iranian red lines are. Right. Which of these points is it that the Iranians are most willing to make the hill they die on? Is it, for example, the Strait of Hormuz? And the fact that they are now saying this is part of our territorial integrity and part of our sovereignty, which it obviously isn't because it's international waters. But for those who have worked with Iran before on negotiations, say, that might not be the thing, it might be enrichment. That is the thing. But they put all of these points down and take an extreme approach to each, and then they're willing to negotiate. So again, regional leaders who are speaking currently to the Iranians are saying behind the scenes, we're relaying information to them and we're telling them, listen, the Americans are not going to budge on this, this and this point, especially on enrichment. And the message coming back from the Iranians, even though publicly they've said, this is our plan, take it or leave Iranians behind closed doors have apparently said, okay, let's negotiate. And this is how the Iranians operate. Now, the other point here is, is that, that regional leaders have also said to me is that Donald Trump is not desperate for a deal. He could actually escalate this war once again. And that the global economy, for everything that we have said, has not taken the beating that everyone has thought it would, that it is far more resilient so that there could be people potential for re escalation in, in July, for example. Now, where do the Chinese fit into all of this? The Chinese buy 80% of Iranian oil exports. They want the Strait of Hormuz to open because it does impact them. But every single day that the Strait of Hormuz is closed is perfect marketing for the Chinese because it just displays American failings. And it markets Chinese development, their technology, AI, their clean energy, you know, all of these things that China is trying to build itself as a global superpower that rivals the United States. The Strait of Hormuz remaining closed, as desperate as they are to have it reopened because of the fact that they purchased so much Iranian oil. And it does impact them. It is great PR for China.
- [10:52]
A
So based on what we're discussing here and what you're hearing, it doesn't sound like this basket, the Iran basket, is going to make a lot of progress. It doesn't sound like solving Iran is going to happen, especially if you say the Chinese are happy to watch Trump fail. And as you said right from the beginning, that Trump is going into these meetings not in the strongest position he's ever been in.
- [11:11]
B
Yeah, and, and I think, look, the, the Chinese are very careful about how they play their cards and they don't want to get into a game where they, they're rescuing the Americans from the mess that they have created. But they're quite enjoying sitting back and watching the Americans get caught up in the mess yet again. Another American president caught up in the quicksand that is the Middle East. The Chinese are sitting back and saying we don't actually have to do anything here. The Trump administration, the Americans are digging their own grave. So we don't have to advise, we don't have to guide. But sure, behind the scenes, they're apparently talking to the Pakistanis, talking to the Iranians. They apparently worked with the Pakistanis to bring the Iranians to the negotiating table the first time around when they came to Islamabad. So they do have some leverage over the Iranians. But the idea that the Chinese would suddenly come to Donald Trump or the United States rescue on the point of Iran, I think is almost short sighted and certainly not what regional leaders think that the Chinese will do.
- [12:14]
A
All right, we'll put that in the strong, maybe unlikely category. What about the other ones?
- [12:20]
B
Let's talk about Taiwan. I'll get you to give us a bit of an explainer. You've spent time in Taiwan and then we can go into what people would be looking at.
- [12:29]
A
Sure. A little history always helps, particularly with these big stories at which we often attack, you know, from a day of perspective. But for China, also for the United States, this is not an issue that began today. So it goes back, let's say a couple of hundred years that Taiwan, which is 100 miles off of the coast of, of China, was a Chinese. Part of the Chinese Empire was what belonged to China, let's say until it was taken over. It was briefly a Japanese col money under Imperial Japan. And then when Japan was defeated in World War II, then China took it back. But the government that took it back was the Chinese Nationalist government. So we're talking about 1948. This is before the rise of communism during a civil war period. You have Chairman Mao who's trying to take over the country. You have the Nationalist government under Chiang Kai Shek. And amid this civil war, what happens with Taiwan suddenly becomes a major issue. The Communist Party took over, Chairman Mao won and the Nationalist government fled. To this relatively newly acquired or reacquired island of Taiwan. And in order to contain what the US in this Cold War dynamic and post World War II dynamic described as Red China, of course, the United States did all that it could to be a thorn in the side of China to keep China penned in. And it supported Taiwan in a, in an enormous way, but tried to keep a balance without saying that knowing that China is a major power, knowing that Taiwan is right off the Chinese shore, that if there were a military content contest, it would really be no fight because China is so much more militarily powerful than Taiwan. And then things changed under President Carter. President Carter made this policy even harder when he opened up relations with China and officially recognized Beijing and accepted on face value what China calls its one China policy. Where there's two systems, you have a autonomous government in Thai, in Taiwan, but that there's the, the main Chinese government is the sovereign one in Beijing. Carter took a step in that direction, but also has tried to maintain this strategic ambiguity where the US Sends defensive weapons to China, does not oppose its independence, but does not actively try and seek to tear Taiwan out of China's sphere of influence. So it is a very ambiguous policy, a very ambiguous policy by design. And it seems like China and President Xi are trying to see if they have an opening with President Trump who makes such statements off the cuff. Can they nudge him a bit? Is he the kind of personality who can be moved? Because differences here hinge on a word for, for many years the US Would only say it does not support Taiwanese independence. But if President Trump were to say he opposes it, well, that's a big difference because not supporting it meaning, well, we won't come to their aid in a military conflict, but we'll send them defensive weapons. There's kind of wiggle room there. If you say you oppose it, well, that's, that's one step further and further. So that's, that's one thing I think they're going to try and take advantage of President Trump's loose, free flowing style and see if they can get him to move the dial away from, from Taiwan. And then there's these, these weapons packages, huge weapons packages. 11 billion was approved. Another 14 billion is in the pipeline. So that's $25 billion of American weapons heading toward Taiwan. And the, let's call it making good on these orders hasn't been, has been completed. Even though Taiwan has approved the budget. The money there, the 25 billion is ready to go. And there are members of the US Congress who are pushing on President Trump to sign the deal. It is still in the works. And I think President Xi is certainly going to say to President Trump, slow down this, this purchase, don't take the 25 billion. And Taiwanese officials are very nervous about this particular part of the trip.
- [16:48]
B
As you say, everyone's going to be watching very closely around language and the kind of language that Donald Trump uses in this moment around Taiwan, what those aid packages mean. Also, to be fair to Taiwan, it has upped its defense spending. It does know that internally it needs to pull up its own socks when it comes to the training of its forces, spending more money on defense, having bigger defense budget packages, because it's about reliance and relying too much on the United States when the United States can be so unpredictable. They would have looked at Ukraine and taken serious lessons, as did the Chinese, on the sort of toolbox that the west used vis a vis Ukraine and the kind of toolbox that the, they have at their disposal in terms of the Americans. But it's also about reliance. Right. And I think for both sides, it's about dependence at this point.
- [17:46]
A
And before we move on, what about AI? I've, I've read what some of these AI companies want to do. They're trying to establish, or some of them anyway, a basic baseline of communications. Can these two AI superpowers agree on anything Anthropic has suggested? Why don't they just start talking about something that everyone could, in theory, agree on? Let's not allow AI to make biological weapons. Right. Seems reasonable. If we can agree on something, then use that as a starting point to, to agree on other things.
- [18:16]
B
Yeah. And part of the delegation that Donald Trump is going to be taking will include these tech bros, you know, leaders from Silicon Valley, the likes of Elon Musk, for example, to go and have those kinds of conversations. But at the end of the day, they are rivals in this space. And when you look at the sort of tech leaders from within China, well, they don't have the ability to act freely, operate freely, you know, think about business first. They have to think about national interests first. And so that is the fundamental difference, that the tech companies within China are working for the Chinese Communist Party. All of their aims, their ambitions, how they develop technology is for the progress and development of the Chinese government and the Chinese regime. So that is where fundamentally they're different. The one place that the Chinese have complete control and monopoly is in the rare earth minerals market. Both sides are going to have to make certain concessions. The Chinese want access to American chips. And the Americans want access to Chinese rare earth minerals. And when we saw during those trade wars that they were having, one of the things that the Chinese did was, you know, toughen up their export sales when it came to the rare earth minerals and access to Chinese rare earth minerals. We're talking about everything from how your phone is produced to military hardware and other technologies. So they want access to the. The sort of chips within the US Market, and the Americans want access to the Chinese rare earth minerals. So I think that a certain number of statements are going to be made, whether it's about Taiwan or the Iranian issue that they're facing right now and certain concessions and a truce. And the truce is going to be around rare earth minerals and chips, and the chips factor is going to alarm the American market.
- [20:14]
A
And of course, there's soft power. It seems like China's putting on a big show, parade, banquet halls. They've tightened security around Tiananmen squares. They're planning some very, very big events. So it looks like they also want to show Trump, Trump personally, how they can impress him.
- [20:33]
B
Absolutely. You know, at the end of the day, this is a chance for the Chinese to show that level of soft power to the world when Donald Trump comes to town. So when an American delegation, the first in nine years arrives, they are going to put on a massive show and, you know, we are going to hear certain statements made by, by Donald Trump. And I guess from the Chinese perspective, they're gonna be a lot more cautious, things are going to be a lot more choreographed. But all eyes are going to be on what Donald Trump says, what concessions he's willing to make, and what are the going to be the big headlines. I do think he's going to say, look, the Chinese have said to me that they're gonna talk to the Iranians. They're gonna put pressure on them. Whether or not the Chinese do that is another question. I think the Chinese will try and exploit the situation because they are dealing with a. With a much more weakened Donald Trump at this point in time.
- [21:25]
A
Time. Let's take a break here. And on the other side, let's talk about this new reporting from the New York Times about alleged abuses, including very graphic sexual abuses carried out by settlers and Israeli forces against Palestinians. I'm Sam Coates from Sky News.
- [21:53]
B
And I'm Anne McElroy from POLITICO.
- [21:55]
A
Downing Street. Drama, leadership, background, battles and policy. U Turns. We're on it before it breaks.
- [22:00]
B
We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening.
- [22:04]
A
Smart insight clear analysis in your feeds by 7:45am so you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics.
- [22:12]
B
Hit follow and listen to politics at Sam and Anne's, wherever you get your podcasts. Richard, let's pick up on a story that you've been reporting on for, for a number of years. You talked about it a little bit before the break, but just, just tell us and our listeners about it.
- [22:43]
A
So I'll start from today and go backwards a little bit. So there was this new report by Nick Kristoff from the New York Times, one of their famous columnists, and he talked about violence, particularly sexual violence, rape against being used against Palestinians, and how it's on the rise, how the government of Prime Minister Netanyahu doesn't acknowledge this fact, says it is a baseless claim. And he pointed out the fact that right after the October 7 massacre, when several thousand Hamas militants stormed into Israel and went on a kidnapping and killing spree, they were also many allegations of rape carried out by these Hamas men against their hostages and how that they were they were condemned around the world by the United States, by Israel. But when there are allegations of sexual violence being used against Palestinians by Israelis, there's a lot more silence.
- [23:40]
B
So, Richard, just tell us a little bit about your reporting because you've spoken to one of the Palestinian victims who was also in Nick Kristof's reporting for the New York Times.
- [23:53]
A
So this is a story that I've been following for for quite a few years. Right after the October 7 massacre, the settlers felt much more emboldened than they, than they had ever had in the in the past. They began attacking Palestinians using more lethal means. And this, this anger began bubbling up onto the surface. It had always been there, but it became much more blatant. And one of the people I spoke to was featured in, in Nick Kristoff's reporting. His name was Mohammed Batar and he is a Palestinian official, works for the Palestinian Authority. And he describes shortly after October 7, how he was attacked by Israeli settlers, also security personnel. He was put in an animal pen. He was urinated on, rolled in manure. Someone tried to shove a stick inside of him. And he was one of the people that I spoke to who described this as kind of a systematic abuse and that the authorities don't help and that the authorities are part of it. And Yalda, the Israeli Foreign Ministry has responded very aggressively to Nick Kristof's reporting in the New York Times. In fact, some of the strongest statements I've ever seen Israel make? They posted them on X. This is just an excerpt. It says, today the New York Times chose to publish one of the worst blood libels ever to appear in the modern press. It goes on to say that in an unfathomable inversion of reality and through an endless stream of baseless lies, propagandist Nick Kristof turns the victim into the accused. So a very strong statement from Israel.
- [25:26]
B
Where can our listeners see some of your reporting? Because, of course, Nick Kristoff's stuff is out there reported by the New York Times.
- [25:34]
A
Why don't we put a link or two in the show notes so people can link on some of the original or earlier stories that we've done on this.
- [25:39]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for all of your reporting as always, and really good to see you this week, Richard.
- [25:46]
A
It's great to see you. And again, better luck next time at the baftas. You looked great and I'm so glad that your, your reporter was able to be there for this moment, be acknowledged, even if you didn't get to take away one of the gold statues.
- [25:58]
B
Yeah, absolutely. That was, that was a big deal for us. Thank you so much to all of our listeners for listening.
- [26:12]
A
I'm Sam Coates from Sky News.
- [26:14]
B
And I'm Anne McElrovoy from Politico.
- [26:16]
A
Downing Street Drama, leadership, battles and Policy U Turns. We're on it before it breaks.
- [26:22]
B
We take you straight into the rooms where the real political conversations are happening.
- [26:25]
A
Smart insight, clear analysis in your feeds by 7:45am so you start your morning fully brief for the day ahead in British politics.
- [26:33]
B
Hit, follow and listen to politics at Sam and Anne's wherever you get your podcasts.