Unleash 'all hell': Trump's ultimatum

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Unleash 'All Hell': Trump's Ultimatum"

The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Hosted by Sky News
Release Date: February 12, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Unleash 'All Hell': Trump's Ultimatum," Sky News' esteemed journalists Yalda Hakim and Richard Engel delve deep into the tumultuous landscape of U.S. politics, focusing on former President Donald Trump's provocative statements and their global repercussions. The conversation spans several critical areas, including Trump's stance on Gaza, the evolving U.S. foreign policy under his influence, and emerging conflicts in Africa, particularly the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC).

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Trump's Ultimatum on Gaza

Timestamp: [02:33]

Yalda Hakim initiates the discussion by addressing Donald Trump's recent and incendiary comments about Gaza. She remarks on the international outrage stemming from Trump's proposals:

Yalda Hakim: "Donald Trump's comments about Gaza... it's alarming, shocking, outraging both Arab states and the international community."

The conversation pivots to a specific user comment critiquing the podcast’s language, highlighting the tension between candid discourse and regulatory constraints:

User Comment: "I love how Yalda has started to use swear words on this podcast... Either don't say these words or don't censor it."

Both hosts humorously acknowledge the censorship while maintaining that expressive language does not detract from their journalistic integrity.

Timestamp: [05:00]

Yalda introduces a listener's question from Elizabeth regarding Trump's assertion that the U.S. should transform the Gaza Strip into the "Riviera of the Middle East." She recounts an earlier incident where Trump's U.S. Envoy, Steve Witkoff, suggested relocating Palestinians to Indonesia, showcasing the absurdity and impracticality of such proposals.

Timestamp: [07:06]

Richard Engel elaborates on Netanyahu's reaction to Trump's declarations, suggesting that Netanyahu was not surprised and may even favor Trump's aggressive rhetoric:

Mark Stone: "He was beaming... as Donald Trump unleashed his commentary."

This leads to an examination of Trump's ultimatum:

Timestamp: [08:29]

A clip of Donald Trump is played where he declares:

Donald Trump: "If all of the hostages aren't returned By Saturday at 12:00, I think it's an appropriate time. I would say cancel it and all bets are off and let hell break out."

Engel and Hakim dissect the implications of this statement, highlighting the immediate threat of renewed conflict and the unfeasibility of forcibly relocating Gaza's population to foreign nations.

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Reactions and Analysis

Timestamp: [10:31]

Yalda Hakim explores potential outcomes of Trump's ultimatum, questioning the feasibility and ethical implications of such a move. She references Senator Lindsey Graham's criticism of deploying U.S. troops to Gaza, emphasizing the lack of support for such drastic measures within the American political landscape.

Timestamp: [13:37]

Mark Stone provides historical context on Gaza, tracing its decline from a relatively open and economically viable region to a "failed" and "disaster" under Hamas rule. He critiques Trump's unilateral approach, arguing that the proposed solutions lack practicality and ignore the complex socio-political dynamics of the region.

Timestamp: [18:48]

Hakim raises questions about the strategic interests of the U.S. regarding Gaza and the broader Middle East. She scrutinizes the Trump administration’s ambiguities and the potential for escalation without a clear policy framework.

Timestamp: [20:33]

Stone suggests alternative solutions to Hamas's rule, such as reinstating the Palestinian Authority or establishing a technocratic interim government, rather than the extreme proposal of depopulating Gaza. He underscores the lack of viable options being presented by Trump and his allies.

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US Domestic Approval of Trump

Timestamp: [29:01]

Shifting focus to U.S. domestic politics, Yalda Hakim discusses a recent CBS poll indicating that Donald Trump holds a 53% approval rating, with particularly strong support among younger voters under 30. She references an interview with an Arab American leader who, despite disagreeing with Trump's stance on Gaza, continues to support him over other candidates.

Timestamp: [32:14]

Mark Stone attributes Trump's popularity to his cultural policies, notably his executive orders on banning transgender athletes from women's sports. He elaborates on the importance of organized sports in American culture, suggesting that such performative policies resonate deeply with specific voter bases.

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Marco Rubio and U.S. Foreign Policy under Trump

Timestamp: [34:05]

The hosts transition to discussing Marco Rubio's perspective on U.S. foreign policy, emphasizing his alignment with Trump's "America First" doctrine. Rubio asserts:

Marco Rubio: "The mission of American foreign policy... is to further the national interest of the United States of America."

Stone critiques Rubio's stance, arguing that it undermines international diplomacy and institutions by promoting unilateral actions and neglecting the collaborative frameworks established post-World War II.

Timestamp: [27:03]

Yalda Hakim connects this discourse to the upcoming Munich Security Conference, noting Ursula von der Leyen's remarks on the shift from hyperglobalization to hyper-competitive geopolitics. She underscores the stress tests being placed on traditional alliances and democratic institutions by Trump's policies.

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Situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo

Timestamp: [38:17]

Yalda Hakim brings attention to the escalating conflict in the DRC, where M23 rebels, supported by Rwanda, have captured Goma, the largest city in eastern Congo. She highlights the motivations behind the conflict, including the control of rare minerals crucial for global technology and enduring ethnic tensions reminiscent of the 1994 Rwandan genocide.

Timestamp: [40:59]

Mark Stone contrasts the stability of Rwanda under President Kagame with the chaos in the DRC, emphasizing the strategic importance of rare earth minerals and predicting that the conflict is likely to intensify. He describes the stark differences in infrastructure and security between Rwanda and the DRC, reinforcing the fragility of the latter.

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Predictions and Conclusions

Timestamp: [35:47]

Richard Engel revisits a prediction made in the previous episode about the potential collapse of the ceasefire in Gaza. He confirms that the ceasefire has indeed broken down, primarily due to Hamas's failure to release hostages in a timely and humane manner, thereby escalating tensions and undermining the agreement's legitimacy.

Timestamp: [41:14]

Yalda Hakim parallels Trump's initial "honeymoon period" with the Biden administration, noting how unforeseen events like the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan can rapidly alter public perception and approval ratings. She highlights the current high approval ratings of Trump as indicative of his policies' resonance with a significant portion of the electorate.

Timestamp: [41:26]

The hosts reflect nostalgically on their past collaborative experiences, hinting at future in-person reporting ventures in conflict zones, underscoring the ongoing commitment to frontline journalism.

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Key Takeaways

1. Trump's Aggressive Stance on Gaza: Trump's ultimatum to depopulate Gaza and his threat of unleashing "all hell" signify a radical shift in U.S. foreign policy, raising alarms globally due to its impracticality and humanitarian concerns.

2. Domestic Support Fueled by Cultural Policies: Trump's approval ratings remain robust, bolstered by his cultural policies that resonate with conservative voter bases, particularly regarding gender and sports.

3. Erosion of International Diplomacy: Under Trump's "America First" ideology, traditional alliances and international institutions face potential undermining, challenging the collaborative frameworks that have maintained global stability post-World War II.

4. Escalating African Conflicts: The conflict in the DRC, driven by the control of rare minerals and ethnic tensions, exemplifies the complex interplay of geopolitical and economic factors fueling regional instability.

5. Future of the Ceasefire in Gaza: The predicted collapse of the ceasefire underscores the fragility of diplomatic agreements in the face of non-compliance and exacerbating hostilities.

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Notable Quotes

• Donald Trump [08:29]: "If all of the hostages aren't returned By Saturday at 12:00, I think it's an appropriate time. I would say cancel it and all bets are off and let hell break out."

• Marco Rubio [24:08]: "The mission of American foreign policy... is to further the national interest of the United States of America."

• Yalda Hakim [27:03]: "We’ve gone from the era of hyperglobalization and we've moved to the era of hyper competitive and hyper transactional geopolitics."

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This episode offers a comprehensive analysis of Donald Trump's foreign policy maneuvers, their domestic and international implications, and the broader geopolitical shifts currently shaping the global landscape. Through incisive dialogue and expert insights, Engel and Hakim provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of these pressing issues.

Transcript

[James Matthews]

Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.

[Donald Trump]

Together, we can truly make America great again.

[Mark Stone]

We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years, and we're going to.

[James Matthews]

Be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha.

[Mark Stone]

Calmick, and me, Mark Stone for Trump.

[James Matthews]

100 every weekday at 6:00am, wherever you get your podcast.

[Yalda Hakim]

Hello, and welcome to the world with me, Yalda, and I'm currently in London.

[Mark Stone]

And with me, Richard Engel. And I am in New York City, of all places. But it's been a fascinating time to be here. This is my home city, so it's always good to be back and it's always good to see you.

[Yalda Hakim]

It's, it is, it's the highlight of my week, Richard, and I know you always say that as well, so I'll believe it, but you're not often in the United States. What are you doing there? I was just there a few weeks.

[Mark Stone]

Ago, so I came here for some meetings. I came here for some contact building, a bit of, a bit of, of this and that, but it's also to take the temperature of, of the States right now. And, and I want to get into that. There's so much to discuss this week. I want to talk about what's going on in the US Generally speaking. I think people here are still in disbelief there. Trump supporters think he's fabulous and they love what he's doing. And Trump's opponents are still in a bit of a state of shock and paralysis. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about what's going on in the States. Also want to talk about Munich. You're on your way to the Munich Security Conference and I know you're going to want to talk about that. What's in store, what's coming there?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, absolutely. Just in the last week, Ursula von der Leyen has been giving some remarks to EU ambassadors. So I want to talk about that.

[Mark Stone]

And just a reminder, thank you to all of you who are already subscribed. Otherwise, you can follow us wherever you get your podcasts and that way you get a notification wherever, whenever new material drops. You can also watch us on YouTube and please write in with your questions at theworld sky.uk.

[Yalda Hakim]

I think firstly, Richard, something that I guess has alarmed, shocked, outraged both Arab states and the international community over the past week has been Donald Trump's comments about Gaza. Now, he made them a few times last week. He has continued to make these statements this week as well. So let's begin by talking about that. But before we get into that, I just want to read some of the comments. And of course, we love getting your comments. So please continue to write in to the worldky.uk but one of the comments, Richard, I'm going to read it here to you. That we got from social media. It was from a user@godsmeantv and he said, said, I love it. How Yalda has started to use swear words on this podcast. This is the second time. But why is it being censored? Either don't say these words or don't censor it. No kids under 12 are watching this. That's 100% for sure. No need to play the Holy Mary Siddiqua role here.

[Mark Stone]

It's true. I noticed on a couple of episodes there's now the E. I guess that's because of your filthy mouth. We're being, you know, we've been categorized as explicit because of you, Yalda.

[Yalda Hakim]

You know, as you know and as our listeners get to know me, they will know that actually I do swear like a sailor. But we do have to have to censor, unfortunately, because we are bound by all sorts of regulations.

[Mark Stone]

I love cursing. Not cursing at someone, I think that can be a little bit aggressive. But using them as language, you know, they're very powerful words.

[Yalda Hakim]

Absolutely. And I think I'm going to get another beep this week. But last week it was to quote sort of the Trump, the doctrine that is going by now, which is, you know, around and find out. And, and I think that's what was one of the things that upset people and they felt they needed to censor it because we do adhere to regulations.

[Mark Stone]

Does that mean we're going to get a little E again? That little, that little F bomb that you just drop right now?

[Yalda Hakim]

You know, I'm like one of those people where they say, don't press the red button and I press the red button.

[Mark Stone]

So I know that book. I have a, a book for, for Theo. It's like that. It's like, don't push this button. And of course, course you push the button. And that's the whole point of the book. But on and on. So, yes, cursing. We have another question. You said that we've got a lot of questions this week. We have a question about Gaza.

[Yalda Hakim]

We do.

[Mark Stone]

Do you have that one in front of you? Maybe?

[Yalda Hakim]

Let's tackle that. Yeah. This one's from Elizabeth and she wrote to us via email. She said Trump says that you that the US should turn Gaza Strip into the Riviera of the Middle East. I was wondering what the two of you think of this. I love the pod and I always learned so much from it. So thank you. So that's a nice comment from Elizabeth, but within that, she wants to know what think about Donald Trump's comments about Gaza. And you'll remember, Richard, this started before inauguration. Before inauguration, Steve Witkoff, the US envoy, Donald Trump's US Envoy for the Middle east, started to say when the ceasefire deal looked like it was successfully sort of coming together, both sides had signed the deal and you and I were both covering it at the time. He said he talked about the ceasefire deal. This was like a couple of days before inauguration. And within an interview, he said, look, we're talking to countries like Indonesia, for example, about what to do with the population of Gaza. The Palestinians who live in Gaza, in Indonesia.

[Mark Stone]

What are they, the Gazans going to do in Indonesia?

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, I guess they would just because.

[Mark Stone]

It'S a Muslim country.

[Yalda Hakim]

A Muslim country.

[Mark Stone]

But that's. So that's good enough. It's in the middle of, you know, it's an island, string of islands with people have a different traditions. But hey, it's a Muslim country. That's good enough. It's so strange that that's really. That was part of the consideration. Ship them all to Indonesia.

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, that's where I first saw this buried in. And I thought, I remember being in the office in, in our Bureau in Washington, D.C. we were preparing for inauguration and I said, has anyone picked this up? And they said, no. And everyone sort of sat around and we thought, what? Where is this coming from? So that was the first time I saw this idea being floated. And since then, for the and a half weeks, over and over again, we hear Donald Trump continue to say at press conferences, you know, with Benjamin Netanyahu sitting next to him as the first foreign leader to visit. Donald Trump, Israel's prime minister, sitting next to him, sort of smiling as Donald Trump unleashed this commentary around.

[Mark Stone]

He was beaming. He was beaming. And it was a, I think was the New York Times. It was on New York Times or Washington Post, said if Netanyahu had to keep that expression on his face for long, his face, the muscles would have hurt. He was smiling so broadly that it was almost a, you know, a pantomime smile that was going ear to ear as he was sitting there nodding and listening to Trump saying that the solution is to get rid of all the Palestinians and depopulate the Gaza Strip and rebuild it.

[Yalda Hakim]

Then I'll ask you a question, Richard, do you think that Benjamin Netanyahu was completely caught by surprise by all of that now?

[Mark Stone]

By no means. By no means, I don't think he was completely caught by surprise. This was music to his ears. Before we get into that, do you want to hear should we play for everyone the latest Trump clip and then we'll, then we'll discuss it on the back end. Let's hear from the man himself what he said in one of the many times that he's brought up his recent plan and he's also talked about the ceasefire because we're going to talk about predictions in the end. Basically, we had this one right, too. We said that the ceasefire was going to break down and low and hoed it is breaking down. So why don't we hear from him and then I will give you, I promise I'm not evading the question. I will tell you all things Gaza and I want to hear about you as well. But let's hear from Trump and then we'll discuss on the backside deal, done deal.

[Donald Trump]

As far as I'm concerned, if all of the hostages aren't returned By Saturday at 12:00, I think it's an appropriate time. I would say cancel it and all bets are off and let hell break out.

[Mark Stone]

But when you say all hell is going to break loose, are you speaking about retaliation from.

[Donald Trump]

You'll find out. And they'll find out, too. Hamas will find out what I mean.

[Mark Stone]

So that the reason I wanted to play that clip, which was about the ceasefire not depopulating Gaza, is they're both, they both go hand in hand. So what is Trump telling the world? What is Trump telling the people of Gaza? People of Gaza have been really smashed for the last year and a half. Hamas, which carried out this, this brutal attack and, and launched this latest round of, of this latest conflict, this latest war, when they took all the, the hostages and carried out its Oct. 7 attack. But the people of Gaza have been been on the receiving end. Now they're being told that the war is going to resume again unless Hamas coughs up all the hostages at once, and which is not the ceasefire agreement, but just releases them all in one batch. And if that doesn't happen, they're going to get smashed. And Trump is telling them that they're all going to have to leave and go to some other countries, apparently Indonesia, because, you know, why not? They're, they're Muslim, so they let them go to some other Muslim country that they have no connection with and no don't speak the language. So considering these two things, taking them together, Trump just unilaterally rewrote the rules of the, of the ceasefire, saying, I want them all out on, on Saturday instead of coming out in stages, because that's. That that process was breaking down. And he's saying that they're all going to have to leave and be forced out and that the US Is going to own this property and that maybe US Troops are going to have to go over there and do this, this depopulation. So when you consider those two things together, what do you, what do you, what do you make of it? Yalda Then I'll give my take.

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, so a couple of things. I think the first thing with the whole all hell will break loose and what we heard him say about that, the ceasefire, it's because Hamas have said, as per the agreement, we were supposed to release some hostages on Saturday. We're now not going to do that until further notice. So Trump's come out in response to that and said, you will see what I do to you. Now, what does he actually mean by that? Is he going to send American bombers out there to bomb the people of Gaza as well? What does that actually mean? It's difficult to know. What if Hamas calls Donald Trump's bluff and he's used this word and this language before, all hell will break loose. And if you don't sign a ceasefire agreement, and Hamas did sign the ceasefire agreement, so did Israel, what does this now mean? If by Saturday those hostages are not out, will Donald Trump act and react? You know, what is likely to happen? I think that's one thing. On the other issue around Gaza and whether the United States suddenly takes control of Gaza because it has strategic interest there. I mean, Senator Lindsey Graham, who's actually quite close to Donald Trump, has said the good people of North Carolina are not really wanting American boots on the ground in Gaza. Like, why does this have to become our issue now? So that's interesting that Republicans are sort of starting to push back on this a little bit and saying, what plan have you got for this? And why, why, when you were the president that was against forever wars, you wanted troops out of all of these places and you don't want American troops fighting across the world. You're really to now deploy American troops on the ground in Gaza. So when we hear Donald Trump say this, frankly, for me, for now these are just words. And Donald Trump being the disruptor, the agent of chaos, the person sort of distracting at this point in time from the real issues. And when I've spoken to Israelis, Richard, they say to me, listen, the Gaza thing, and pigs might fly moving 2 million people out of there. What are they going to do at gunpoint? And who's going to do this? The Israelis, the Americans? Who's. What is the actual deal and policy here? I think the Israelis are more concerned about Donald Trump's statements around Iran where he has said, listen, I don't want Iran to be some pariah state. I want to bring Iran out from the cold, and I'm happy to negotiate and do a deal with Iran. So the Israelis are saying to me, this will now be the fifth administration that attempts to pacify Iran through deals and negotiations rather than sort of dealing with the problem that is Iran. So they believe that Benjamin Netanyahu went to Washington, didn't get what he wanted out of Donald Trump. Donald Trump said some words and continues to say some words. In the words of Donald Trump and his advisors, he's thinking outside the box. He's smashing the status quo about two state solutions, and he's panicking everyone into some kind of action. That's why he's saying this rather than actually hauling 2 million Palestinians out of the Gaza Strip.

[Mark Stone]

So in terms of Iran, yes, they do seem to be. Netanyahu and Trump seem to be at loggerheads over Iran, with Netanyahu clearly wanting a stronger policy, maybe even military action, probably military action against Iran or against its nuclear program, maybe even regime change in Iran. If you listen to what Netanyahu has been saying, that's what he seems to favor is getting rid of the Iranian regime once and for all. And now Trump is saying, well, maybe a peace deal and things, but I'm not sure if that Trump position on Iran holds. I think he could go from peace to war on Iran or peace to a military strike on Iran pretty quickly, but going back to Gaza for a second. So Gaza has been a failed place, right? It's been a failed place for decades. And I don't mean that to sort of cast blame, particularly on the people of Gaza, but there's no one could argue that it has been a successful political entity for the last several decades. Probably the most successful time it ever had was in the days of Yasser Arafat. You know, it wasn't a success or Egyptian occupation. It wasn't a success, certainly under Hamas's rule. But there was a, there was a period when it was run by the Palestinian Authority and Gaza was open, relatively speaking, people could go and work from Gaza. They could work in Israel. Most people don't know that Gazans built Tel Aviv. You know, most of the, you know, people like Tel Aviv and they like all the beaches and the beachfront bars and all the rest. A lot of that was built with Gazan labor. So Gazans used to work in Israel quite, quite openly, in large numbers. Gaza had a lot of, you know, it had a big flower industry. They used to sell flowers. I used to go to the greenhouses and they had. Carnations were a big thing, and roses, and they had beautiful flowers. And there's some money to be made in flowers and certainly hop there. And they don't take up a ton of space. So they had industry. They had a collective interest with the Israelis because they had business ties and they had the ability to move around, which is fundamental because one of the biggest problems with Gaza, the biggest grievance that they've had, is that they've been in an effective prison for so long. But that ended. And when did that end? When did this period of Gaza, when it was a, a relatively viable period, and it ended around 2005 and it was President Bush again. It was another American president who decided he was going to solve all of the problems in the Middle east and that he had all the answers. This time was President Bush Jr. And it was a rock, a war period. President Bush was saying that democracy is the solution, that you could just pour democracy into the sands of the Middle east and the flowers would bloom and peace would break out. It was very, very naive. By the way, Blair bought into it in the uk. You guys were all on the same, drinking the same Kool Aid. And he pushed for elections in Gaza because democracy could never lead to anything bad. The thinking was, even though many Middle east experts at the time said, whoa, the ground isn't exactly right for this, be careful. Hamas won the election and then took over in a military coup by throwing out the opposition. And then immediately the place is turned into a prison. It's locked off. And they've had nothing but a series of wars with Israel since then. Every few years, they had wars with Israel. Okay, so where does it leave us? Now the Israelis and, and Trump are saying, well, the Gaza has always been a failure. It's always been a disaster. They've always hated Israel. Forget this place. It's bombed out anyway. Best solution is just move everyone out. But as you say, the practicality of that is just absurd. American troops, because the Palestinians said, no, we don't want to leave. Although I bet you some are thinking, you know, as they're going back to their rubble, their house. I'm sure many Palestinians are saying, well, it's not a terrible idea. You know, living in Gaza with no food, no water, on a pile of rubble is not appealing either. But there's the principle of this and there's the national struggle, because if they leave, there's no Palestine. There's no two state solution. There's no state solution because you can't have a Palestinian state with no Palestinians. So that's why Netanyahu was so smiling, because they want to leave and, you know, be dispersed. Then the, the pressure's off of him to ever give them, give them a state. His right wing coalition is celebrating and, and dancing and, and that's where he is. But I don't see it realistically as ever happening. I mean, your Lindsey Graham statement or American troops, which tend to come from, you know, rural parts of, of America, you know, Central Texas and Central California and in the south, those, those, you know, young men and women are really going to go to Gaza with their, their rifles and round up people from the, from the tops of their destroyed homes and force them into a country where, where they're not welcome. I mean, it just, you'd never, the United States nor Israel would never live that one down. Never live those images down.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly. And I think Israel ultimately knows and understands that. And so while Donald Trump thinks he's sending US Troops or may think this might be a good idea to send, own the Gaza Strip and send US Troops there, what is the strategic interest for the United States? And ultimately, these are big questions that are going to come out. And his administration's already, members of the administration are coming out and trying to defend this by saying, no, he never said permanently remove. He said temporarily remove because it's a demolition site.

[Mark Stone]

He corrected it and he said, well, no, they would never allow to be called back. You know, he's, he's clarified, he keeps.

[Yalda Hakim]

Clarifying what they're trying to clarify and.

[Mark Stone]

It keeps getting worse and worse. No, no, no, that meant they would never come back.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yes, but three things that I'm going to be watching, Richard, is what is the Trump's Trump administration's policy towards normalization with Saudi Arabia? Don't forget Donald Trump's first foreign trip was to the Saudi Kingdom. And so, and he, again, just like Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin, he looks to MBS and as a powerful, strong man, someone he probably admires and thinks this is a guy who is a young leader with a very wealthy nation. And I can benefit from deals from this country. So what are the plans for normalization with Israel, Saudi, Israeli normalization, which the American president really wants. So I'm going to be looking at that. And I'm also going to be looking at what Trump's going to do on the issue of Iran and whether he's going to speak more publicly about, you know, you've had 16 months, Israel to smash Hamas mask. You haven't done that. We now need to find another solution. But the Gaza thing, I think other than it being really inflammatory rhetoric that normalizes the idea of moving the Palestinians out, I think for now they're just words.

[Mark Stone]

But there's also no, there's a much easier plan which isn't being discussed. I mean, Hamas rule, which has been unsuccessful for Gazans, has been unsuccessful, clearly, for, for Israel. Maybe it allowed Netanyahu to avoid having to do with the peace process, which is why he tolerated Hamas in Gaza. But Hamas rule has been been a failure. So why does the alternative have to be okay, no Hamas rule and then no people in Gaza? It seems like there is an easier solution, which is let them have some sort of government, let them have some sort of civil administration. I mean, there are between Hamas in charge or everyone sent into exile. There's plenty of other options in the middle. And you hear people around Trump saying, well, we're not hearing any other options. Well, I can give you a couple right now. You could have the Palestinian Authority. You could have a moderated version of the Palestinian Authority. You could have a temporary interim government, a technocratic government. You could release the Palestinian prisoner Marwan Barghouti, who could unite all of the Palestinians and form a new Palestinian government, which Hamas has even said they would support him even though he's not a member of Hamas. There are many different options of trying to find an authority that can run Gaza that is not continuing with Hamas rule or rounding all the people up and pushing them out at the point of a gun into countries that don't want them.

[Yalda Hakim]

Plenty to still talk about, Richard. But let's take a quick break and then come back. We've got lots more to discuss on Donald Trump, the Munich security Conference, as you say, and more on Trump's foreign policy through the eyes of the new secretary of State, Marco Rubio.

[Mark Stone]

And more cursing from Yalda on the way. On the, on the backside.

[Yalda Hakim]

Exactly.

[Mark Stone]

Welcome back, Yalda. We've been talking a lot about what's happening in the United States where I am right now, and this executive takeover and this very bold, sometimes it's described as muscular. Trump foreign policy, where it's America first at home and America foremost abroad, and how he's trying to build his spheres of influence and take over the Gulf of Mexico and call it the Gulf of America. We've talked a lot about this, and it seems like now that conversation is turning into mainstream. We heard the EU foreign policy chief talking about Trump's world vision, and we heard a pretty explicit version of Trump's sort of foreign policy from his Secretary of state, from Marco Rubio.

[Yalda Hakim]

Who could forget the taunts that Donald Trump used against Marco Rubio? I mean, they're best of friends now, but he used to call him little Marco for, for a long time. But, but Marco Rubio, the now Secretary of State of the United States, was on a podcast with Megyn Kelly. Megyn Kelly, of course, is now a huge Donald Trump supporter, but she had her own problems with Donald Trump when she moderated a debate, a presidential debate.

[Mark Stone]

I remember 26 premenstrual, right?

[Yalda Hakim]

Blood coming out of everywhere or something.

[Mark Stone]

You're bleeding or something. That's why you're being such a nasty person. I mean, just, just crude, rude comments.

[Yalda Hakim]

But, but Megan Kelly has come full circle now. She is, you know, she's been lobbying for Trump. She spoke at his rallies. She, you know, said, this is the guy that is going to be, you know, the man to save America. And, and she's now considered a. Well, well, she used to work for Fox, so she's not now considered a right wing commentator, but she has her own podcast. She was interviewing Marco Rubio. And I'm just going to read you what Marco Rubio said in that podcast. He said, I think the mission of American foreign policy, and this may sound sort of obvious, but I think it's been lost. The interest of American foreign policy is to further the national interest of the United States of America. Right? I mean, I mean, every. And then she, he interrupts and says, america first. And he says, well, and that's the way the world has always worked. The way the world has always worked is that the Chinese will do what's in the best interest of the Chinese. The Russians will do what's in the best interest of Russia. The Chileans are going to do what's in the best interest of Chile, and the United States needs to do what's in the best interest of the United States. Now, you know, I didn't actually think, frankly, Richard.

[Mark Stone]

Yeah, yeah, that's obvious, of course. As opposed to what the United States has to. What's supposed to act in what's the best interest of, I don't know, Scotland. And of course not. He's elected President of the United States to work for the American people. Every president, prime minister. But it's the context of when, now all international institutions are being undermined, where executive orders are being issued daily. President Trump can't live for the next four years on executive orders and make foreign policy by executive orders and by tariffs alone. And, and, and you have Marco Rubio saying that's the way it's always worked. That's the way every country works. It's not, it's not the way it's always worked. Yes, you defend your own interests, but it doesn't mean you have, you, you govern by executive order. And there's no, there's, there's no concept of diplomacy, there's no concept of international institutions. There's no such thing as the U.N. and look, I'm a bit, I've been a big critic of the, the UN as you and I, who've seen, as we talked about last week, usaid, of course, there's problems with it, but they were established after World War II for a reason. People saw what happens when there are no international institutions of all, when, when there are no rules, when there's no place for peacemaking. Why did the Geneva Conventions come. Come around? They came around after the, the horrors of, of World War II. People thought even in the worst of cases, which is war, we need to have some sort of rules that we can all agree on. And he's saying, meh, everybody does their own thing, everybody minds their own shop. And it's a competitive world out there. Get used to is the way it's always worked. But it doesn't mean it's, it doesn't mean it's the best way.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And, and Richard, I'm going to the Munich Security Conference this weekend where they're going to be talking a lot about America's alliances, Europe's alliances, certainly with, with each other and the importance of that. And, you know, I was recently listening to Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the European Commission, address EU ambassadors, and she said something which was really quite striking for me. She said in that speech that we've gone from the era of hyperglobalization and we've moved to the era of hyper competitive and hyper transactional geopolitics. Now, this is a concept that one of the founding fathers of the Munich Security Conference, Henry Kissinger, he made a speech at Munich many, many years ago, and he spoke about the idea of, you know, these relationships, of course there's values, but at the end of the day, it's about transactional geopolitics. Of course these relationships are. And America needs Europe, and Europe needs America. But Donald Trump is now testing these alliances. And I think that's what makes this period so interesting. Democracy is being tested, these alliances are being tested. And frankly, when you think about it, a lot of people don't know why we have the freedoms we have, why we are where we are 80 years on since the Second World War, why we have democratic institutions. And these things are now being tested. Maybe it's a good thing that they're being tested, maybe getting us out of our comfort zones and questioning these, these institutions. But the problem here is, Richard, and we talked about this last week, it's one thing burning everything down to the ground. It's another when you reform and rebuild and have a plan.

[Mark Stone]

Well, I'm in the States right now and I can say I'm an, I'm an American, I cover this country, foreign policy, I cover from the outside in. I'm not a domestic reporter. But I can tell you by being here, people are starting to have this debate about, well, what exactly is he doing? Is this an executive takeover? Is this some sort of presidential coup? Is he a, is he a fascist? Does he want to be a fascist? Where are we going? But so far they're not taking any real action. You just see people watching in some way, what horror if they don't like Trump or they're celebrating. So I was in, I was in Florida before I got here. I was actually not, not far from Mar A Lago, meeting some people. And this was deep Trump country, rich, white industrialist, old. They, you know, the, the, the, the people who he, his people. And maybe they were always the people who ran America, but they certainly feel like they're the people who are running America right now, now. And they love what's going on. They love his sort of denuding of the government, putting Trump loyalists in position of power. Because if you have executive power, you need to actually be able to implement it through all the different layers of government. So you can't just give an executive order. You have to have people at the different layers of government who will carry it out. So Trump's fan base, these, these big industrial families, they think he's great, that he's carrying it out. He's getting rid of government, he's getting, get rid of regulation, which is good for business. These cultural shifts, anti wokeism, they think he's fabulous. And the rest of America right now is kind of watching, scratching, thinking, but not acting. And I don't know when that's going to change. I don't know when, when, when that will change. But I don't think this honeymoon period will last forever for Trump.

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, you know, for a lot of presidents, they have their honeymoon period. I remember when the Biden administration first came to power and they were like, america is back. I did the first international interview with Anthony Blinken, who was the Secretary of State, and the headline from that interview was, America is back. We're going to take our alliances seriously, our partnerships globally. And yet within six months, it set the tone for the next four years. When the chaotic withdrawal of Afghanistan happened, the Biden approval rating completely sunk, and it never improved from that point. Now, if you look at Donald Trump's, the polling at the moment, CBS did a poll this week, right. And they have said that for that poll, Donald Trump has the Highest approval rating, 53%. And of that, the under 30s are polling the highest that they ever have for that particular poll. So he's doing something that's resonating. Richard. There might be a lot of people in shock. There might be a lot of people watching the Trump reality show every night where he signs these executive orders, and we're part of the reality show of Donald Trump, and there's the Trump world and the daily drama of that. But 53% of people in this particular poll think he's doing something right because.

[Mark Stone]

He'S doing these executive orders that are resonating with a lot of, of people's, you know, they thought culture had been out of whack. For example, the trans banning. One of his executive orders that he signed was banning trans athletes. So banning biologically born men from, from participating in, in, in women's sports, no matter what they've done after their, after their birth. And that was popular. A lot of people here, that became a kind of a touchstone issue in the United States. It's easy to understand people who have sons and daughters, particularly have sons and daughters who participate in organized sports. And organized sports are hugely popular in the United States, much more popular than they are in Europe. I mean, a sports team at an American high school is like a fundamental part of American town and culture. I mean, it's something that only happens in the United States where you have a high school football team or basketball team that is part of the town. They're treated almost like professional athletes. Everyone in the local town goes to the sporting events the kids wear their jackets and their jerseys even when they're not playing, so that everybody knows they're on the football team and their position is written right on the shoulder. And if you date a girl, I remember I did this when I was in high school, it's a big deal if she can wear your jacket with your team on the back. So I was on the swim team. And I remember one of my biggest things, I was like, I'm going to give this girl that I'm dating my jacket to wear that everybody knew was my jacket. I had my name on it. So organized sports are a big part of American culture and American education, or call it school culture. So I think a lot of these kind of performative things are doing very well in the polls and with the American people.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And before we go and get into predictions, Richard, last night I spoke to an Arab American leader from Michigan, and these are the people that were Arab Americans for Trump. They've changed their name to Arab Americans for Peace. He told me he doesn't like what Trump is saying on Gaza, but he would not change his vote. He would still vote for Donald Trump. They would still support Donald Trump because they still think he was a better option than Kamala Harris and Joe Biden. So that tells me a lot in terms of these approval ratings and these polls that we're currently seeing.

[Mark Stone]

And there was a lot of debate, would they vote. Vote for Trump or would they go for Biden? And they said, we're not going for Biden because he's been rough on Gaza. And they went for Trump. But a lot of it, it turns out, when you asked, when you look at these polls closely, it wasn't just about even though they were Arab, they were. They're Arabs. It wasn't. They weren't only voting for Trump or supporting Trump because of his positions in the Middle East. They were voting because of these cultural issues. A lot of the Latino supporters he had were also because of these cultural issues. They were culturally more traditional or conservative than other parts of America and society. And they were like, we're going with Trump.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. I guess under the Biden administration, almost 50,000 people died in Gaza. So they're referencing that as well, that the options. But one of the predictions we made, Richard, last week was on the ceasefire. Sometimes we sort of joke and say, hey, we got it right. But it is grim, the idea that this ceasefire may fall apart. Not. But. But it was one of the predictions we made. What is your prediction for this week?

[Mark Stone]

Well, I guess I can't predict that again that the ceasefire is going to break down because I think it already has broke down. And it broke down. We referenced this a little bit and that was just, let's capstone, let's put a cap on last week's prediction before we do one. So it looked like it was going to break down. And the reason I thought it was going to break down is that as these hostages were being released in batches, you're gonna, we're gonna start seeing hostages to what we were saying last week, that we're gonna in bad shape, that we're gonna be either sick or dead. We're still waiting for Hamas to hand over the Beavises, which include probably dead children. And I thought as they, as Hamas rolls out these hostages in small numbers and they're in terrible condition or skinny or dead or dead babies, that they, there would be a lot of pressure on Israel or would be an opportunity for Israel to say look what they're doing, they're just giving us corpses or emaciated victims. What kind of monsters are these? Why are we abiding by this ceasefire? Forget it. That's what seems to have happened from the Israeli point of view, from the Gazan point of view. You look at it and they say what's happening now has nothing to do with Hamas, that Hamas is sticking by its terms, the terms of ceasefire. It is releasing these people in batches. But, but at this stage the Israelis were supposed to be negotiating a longer term settlement and they haven't started that. So Hamas says it's the Israelis who are breaking the ceasefire. Israel says we're breaking down the ceasefire because you're releasing people in terrible condition. Unless you've let them all out now, they're all going to die. Enough of this shenanigans, just let them all go. And frankly that's probably the argument that's going to win the day way because Hamas probably doesn't realize that it has no legitimacy. Once you're holding hostages and you're holding babies and you're holding women, they think that that's some sort of legitimate negotiating card. Nobody else does. So they can scream that the Israelis are violating the peace deal as much as they want and the rest of the world is just going to look at them like a bunch of kidnappers. So I think the truth, the peace deal is going to break down. Hamas is going to blame Israel and I think nobody's going to buy it. So that's kind of a continuation of last week's prediction. But I think Hamas is going to be screaming, you know, oh, everybody, Israel didn't live up to the ceasefire deal. And even though that seems to be also true, I don't think anyone's going to hear it.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. And I guess for me, Richard, I am going to move a little bit away from the Middle East. Donald Trump. And I'm watching what's happening in the Democratic Republic of the Congo quite closely. The M23 rebels, supported by Rwanda, have overrun the largest city in eastern Congo, Goma. And so, you know, this is a battle against, again, rare minerals, something that we're seeing play out, whether it's in Greenland, in Ukraine now, conversation around rare earth minerals. This is a battle for these minerals. And you know, this. It's also an ethnic warfare around what's happening to the Tutsis and the Hutus. And it's going back almost to the genocide of 1994 in Rwanda. But we've seen this flare out this week. So I'm just kind of watching that situation at the moment.

[Mark Stone]

Well, I was as well. And you have a situation where you couldn't have two countries more different. You have Rwanda. We both know President Kagame. I think we were together, an event with him. He's credited as having ended the genocide and civil war in Rwanda and bringing the country a degree of law and order. But he's also considered a dictator. And his critics say that he doesn't allow any democracy. And he said, well, how can we allow democracy when we're just coming out of a civil war where people are killing themselves in the hundreds of thousands with machetes? And effectively speaking, when you go to Rwanda, and I've crossed that land border between Rwanda and Congo, you're on the road in Rwanda and the roads are clean and the roads look great and the cars are, you know, in relatively good condition, and there's police in uniforms and people aren't asking you for tips. And then you cross the border into Congo and it's like going into another universe. People, people walking around with machetes. The cars are falling around and falling apart. Gunmen, the cars are belting black smoke. I mean, it's just another universe. They're torn up potholes everywhere. And you cross that border and you're going back in time 30, 40 years into a country that's in civil war. Is that going to fall apart? Because Rwanda is now trying to tip the scale in, in Congo, across the border, establish its control and get those rare earth minerals out, which are so important for all of our technology. So we will see we will see. What's your prediction? You think that's the conflict is going to get worse or.

[Yalda Hakim]

I do. Yeah, I do. I think it's going to get worse. And I'll be speaking to the foreign minister of the DRC in the next day or so. So I'll have more insights on what they think is going to happen on next week's show. But, Richard, it's, it's always so good to see you.

[Mark Stone]

We got to do this in person again. I miss our days when we were in Damascus listening to the gunfire at night as, as Damascus was, was falling and the new government was settling. We, we got to get back there, too.

[Yalda Hakim]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I very much look forward to seeing you soon.

[Mark Stone]

All right, until next time.

[Yalda Hakim]

Until next time, Richard. Bye.

[James Matthews]

Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.

[Donald Trump]

Together, we can truly make America great again.

[Mark Stone]

We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years and we're going to.

[James Matthews]

Be following every twist and trail turn for the first 100 days. We'll be bringing you the latest updates and analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthew, me, Martha.

[Mark Stone]

Kalnick and me, Mark Stone for Trump.

[James Matthews]

100 every weekday at 6aM wherever you get your podcast.