← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Why is MAGA splitting over Israel?
00:35:54
On this week's episode, Yalda and Richard talk about the growing international condemnation of Israel's war in Gaza, including from a usually staunch ally – the evangelical right wing of America. But what has made them voice a rare criticism? The two...
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- [00:06]
Yalda
Hello, this is the world. I'm Yalda and I'm in London. Good evening. The UK has joined 24 other nations to call for an immediate end to the war in Gaza, warning that the suffering of civilians has reached new depths. The situation in Gaza has never been this bad.
- [00:24]
Richard Engel
They are desperately hungry. Children are crying all the time for food. People are making impossible choices to risk.
- [00:32]
Yalda
Their lives to try and find food. The Israeli government's action are doing untold damage to Israel's standing in the world.
- [00:44]
Richard Engel
And I'm Richard Engel and I'm in the States at the moment.
- [00:48]
Yalda
Sky News has reported from the Syrian city of Sueda, the site of deadly clashes which have threatened to plunge the country into a renewed crisis. Serious amount of firing and some heavy weaponry coming in now. You can see lots of smoke down there. Look, people running all over the bed. They're firing across the street. Richard, we were together over the weekend. It was so nice to see you in person and so nice to see you in the US and not in a. Well, a war zone.
- [01:37]
Richard Engel
Yes, I'm in New York city. I'm in 30 Rock right now, visiting NBC News headquarters, which is why I'm in a suit, all dressed up to meet my boss.
- [01:45]
Yalda
Very shop. I don't often see you in a suit. I often see you in the same shirt all week whenever we see Richard out somewhere.
- [01:54]
Richard Engel
I'm so much more comfortable that way. I don't know, you have to dress up. We still have these norms and standards that you have to dress up in the dress shoes and in the suit to go into the office. It's all awful. But I like it.
- [02:06]
Yalda
I like it. I think it's nice to see, you know, you, you dressed up and, and not in your, you know, usual. Usual.
- [02:13]
Richard Engel
I think it changes your personality. I think, like, wearing tight shoes and, and formal clothing makes you. Makes me different anyway. But that's not what people are tuning in to listen to. Who cares what I'm wearing? I care a little bit because it's so uncomfortable, but it is what it is. At the end of last week's show, Yalda, you said to keep an eye on Syria and you were 100% on the money because Syria has been falling apart. Israel had a direct attack on Damascus that caught a lot of people off guard. So we're going to talk about that, where, where things go from here and what it means, because right now there's a very shaky ceasefire in place. But I think the Syria peace is just a larger. It's just a small component of much larger moves afoot in the Middle East.
- [02:59]
Yalda
Yeah, it really is the biggest test for Ahmad Al Shiraz new government so far. We both covered his incredible rise to power at the end of last year, early this year. But the question we were asking at the time when we were both sitting in Damascus was can he keep a lid on this because it is a country that's come out of a 13 year civil war and can he hold it together? That was the big question at the time.
- [03:28]
Richard Engel
Also, we will talk about Gaza again. More civilians are being killed by Israel at aid distribution points and there is growing international condemnation, including from the UK and the evangelical base. And that's something new and it's something we're going to get into. Is Trump losing control of his base? I don't think he is, but his base is starting to express some doubts.
- [03:53]
Yalda
I also want to touch on something that's very close to my heart, Richard, the situation with women and girls in Afghanistan. We are hearing reports based on what the UN Is saying that women have been arrested for protesting the wearing of the hijab. Obviously something so brave and courageous to do in the Taliban's Afghanistan.
- [04:15]
Richard Engel
It takes incredible courage. And as always, follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and you can write to us. Please do heworldky.uk and we had this comment from Kim via email. Trump wants the Nobel Prize more than anything else on earth. And we'll get into that later.
- [04:47]
Yalda
So, Richard, as we were just discussing, you and I were both in Damascus when the fall of the Assad regime happened, something that many people didn't think would happen as quickly as it did. And of course, the whole world watched with amazement as this reformed jihadist, Ahmed Al Sharar, took control of the country peacefully, literally overnight, his forces entered Damascus and took control. Assad was taken away and went to Russia, where we believe he is now living in exile. And slowly, Syria opened up as a nation. Countries like the United States, the, the uk, the EU lifted sanctions on the country. And we even saw when Donald Trump traveled to the Middle east, he met with Ahmed Al Sharar, you know, someone who has American blood on his hands. He's a former Al Qaeda leader. He was, you know, someone who many would say it would be astonishing to see him shake hands with the US President. But that did take place. Sanctions were lifted. Many said it was premature. But here we are now and we're starting to see this nation that dealt with a civil war for over a decade. Millions of people displaced, thousands of People killed, starting to unravel.
- [06:09]
Richard Engel
So I want y' all to try and talk about the wider context, because everything you said is 100% correct. Ahmed El Sharra emerged from the civil war. He is an Islamist. Can he hold the country together? All challenges, all open questions. But I think the larger picture sometimes can help illuminate the smaller pieces and just sort of step back a little bit. So 1948, Israel was attacked by its Arab neighbors. This was just when Israel was formed. And what happened? Israel kicked out the Palestinians and expanded. 1967, Israel was attacked again by an Arab coalition. The Arab states lost, and Israel expanded. And it expanded in 1967, taking East Jerusalem, taking the west bank, taking. Taking the Sinai, taking the Golan Heights. And again, Palestinians were expelled from. From those. Those areas. October 7th, Israel was attacked and caused a lot of. A lot of pain and suffering, and they're still hostages. And what is Israel doing? It is expanding again, and it is also moving Palestinians out of their homes on a regular basis. And Israel has expanded this time into southern Lebanon, where there are still Israeli troops. It has expanded into Gaza, where there are Israeli troops. And now Israel is either going to keep all of at least northern Gaza, or there's some discussion that it might keep all of Gaza and force the Palestinians out of the area completely. It is expanding in the west bank, and it has expanded into southern Syria beyond the Golan Heights. So we've seen, as Israel did after 48, after 67, Israel expanding its borders, Palestinians on the move. How is this related to Syria? Cause we've just seen unrest in Syria around the Druze community. Well, the Druze community, which is a community that lives in both southern Syria and in northern Israel, is the community that has allied itself with. With Israel. It is the community that Israel is, in effect, using to govern this newly captured part of southern Syria. So when they were attacked by local Arab forces and when they've been attacked by the government, the Israelis struck back to defend their new local ally on the ground. But I think what's important to understand is this general new construct in the Middle east, which I think is really historic. And it has seen Israel expand into several different countries, Syria being just one of them.
- [08:51]
Yalda
Yeah. And just to put things a little bit more into perspective in terms of the Druze community, they are an ethno religious minority group that, as you say, you know, even have enlisted in the idf. So there is history between the Druze community and Israel. They are an offshoot of Shia Islam, and they are one of the small Minority groups that were for many years oppressed by Bashar al Assad's regime. And there was no love lost when the Assad regime collapsed. But Ahmed Al Sharar and his forces demanded these minority groups, like the Druze, like the Kurds, to hand over their weapons and be part, you know, ensure that they basically pledge allegiance to the new government of Syria. But they don't trust him. Now, how did this all transpire? Let's just give a little bit of a background. A Druze merchant was kidnapped and this sort of clash between the Bedouins and the Druze community erupted. Now enter Syria's official forces into Sweda, south of Damascus. They sent in forces to what they were saying was to try and defuse the situation. What then erupted was this battle between the Druze community and the forces of Ahmad Al Sharar. Then, obviously, we saw Israel launch a series of bombings, a bombing campaign to protect the Druze community. They say they are the protectors of the Druze community because they've pledged allegiance with Israel. They not only bombed certain areas of Sueda, but they also also dropped a bomb in a. On the Defense Ministry and close to the presidential palace in Damascus. This is after.
- [10:56]
Richard Engel
Oh, that's shocking. Yeah.
- [10:57]
Yalda
By the way, this. Richard, this is after. For weeks, we've been hearing talk of normalization. So the U.S. president lifts sanctions on the Syrian president, a former Al Qaeda leader. He opens up Syria to the world. Then there's talk of normalization with Israel. We're now seeing Israel drop a series of bombs, not just on Suwayda, not just on the forces of Ahmed Al Sharar to protect the Druze, but also on key facilities, including close to the presidential palace in Damascus. I mean, it's an extraordinary turn of events.
- [11:32]
Richard Engel
It certainly is. And there is a long tradition in the Middle east of using minorities, religious minorities, ethnic minorities, as your agent in foreign countries. You mentioned the Alawites, Bashar Al Assad, an Alawite, his father, Hafs al Assad, an Alawite. But how did the Alawites come to power in Syria? They came to power because the French chose them to be their favored minority. The French chose a minority because they don't have other allegiances. You can rely on them because they are dependent on you. And the British Empire did this in numerous cases. The US did that, relying on the Kurds because the Kurds had this dependent relationship on the United States. They were loyal to the US and the assumption was they're going to be our loyal agents on the ground. And generally there Were the Sunnis in Iraq talking about British history a little bit, how did the Sunnis come to power in Iraq even though it's a Shia majority country? It was because many British colonial figures decided the Sunnis could be depended on and could be relied on, so therefore gave them power and they became the favored minority group that led the country. The Israelis are doing that now with the Druze. They've chosen the Druze because they have a history with the Druze. There are Druze that serve in the idf. There are Druze in Israel and they're not a kind of community that doesn't have a big base in Syria. So they don't have any other place to go. It's important to say, who are the Druze? I remember going into a Druze village in northern Israel and I was curious, you know, tell me more about your faith and tell me more about, you know, this religion and how it works. And the tribal elders and even a cleric came up to me and said, yeah, don't worry about it, it's not important. That's just, you could read about it elsewhere. And he kind of escorted me politely out the door. They don't really want to be that well understood. If I walked into a mosque or a church and I asked somebody there, could you tell me a little bit more about Islam or Christianity? They would fall over themselves to teach me more the faith because that's the way these religions work. They proselytize. The Druze are not interested in that. The same way the Yazidis or other small groups in the Middle east tend to be very private and insular. And that's been a self defense mechanism for them. But it also means they generally have to pick a benefactor and certain Druze leaders after the, during the civil war and then after the collapse decided they had a better future with Israel as their backer. They have a better future with the IDF than they do with this Sunni Muslim former extremist government in Damascus in the form of Ahmed El Shara. It was a bet. It was a bet they took. I'm not sure if it's going to work out because already we've seen some fighting. But that's, that's the dynamic that, that we're in right now. And it's, it's not a new one in the Middle east, but it is one that often leads to bloodshed.
- [14:38]
Yalda
So just to be clear, a Druze leader known as Hikmat al Hijiri asked Israel for assistance. He reached out to Benjamin Netanyahu's government and said, we need your help to take on these forces, whether it was the Bedouin tribesmen, whether it was the forces of Ahmad Al Shira to come to the aid of the Druze community, which is what Israel said it was doing. But this is also part of a bigger picture here, Richard. This isn't just about these minority groups and communities infighting, which we saw, you know, even hints of it. When we were in Syria together at the end of last year, when Bashar Al Assad's forces and regime collapsed, there was concern that every checkpoint that we were going to across Damascus was manned by a different militia group. And of course, when we've seen insurgencies try and suddenly become a government, there are complications around that. It's not an easy transition for that to happen. But this is about a bigger story here. Should different minority groups trust Ahmed Al Sharar? Should Ahmad Al Sharar, a former Al Qaeda leader turned rebel leader, turned leader of Syria, be trusted? Because right now, when, you know, our correspondent on the ground, Alex Crawford, has seen burnt and mutilated bodies. And there's currently reports that since the US has brokered a ceasefire between the Druze community and the forces of Ahmad Al Shara, there are reports that over a thousand people have been killed as a result of, you know, less than a week of fighting. This is the daily reality for these Syrian communities. And there is a lack of trust in Ahmed Al Sharar right now, who has had these sanctions lifted, who is talking about normalization with Israel, who is putting himself forward as the new leader of Syria. But you do also have these small minority groups who do not trust this guy. And I have spoken to Arab diplomats and leaders in the region who say to me, there are three different camps when it comes to Ahmed Al Shara. There are those who believe that they have no choice but to ensure that there is a stable Syria so that they can work with Ahmed Al Shira or whoever else takes over. There are those who have bought into the Ahmad Al Sharah narrative, and that includes the Turks, for example. And I've heard that he can't even go to the toilet without checking in with the Turkish intelligence agencies. So they fully control him according to intelligence agencies in the region.
- [17:16]
Richard Engel
So you're hearing that. That the intelligence agencies, that the Turks control Shara that closely?
- [17:22]
Yalda
Absolutely. That they completely control Ahmed Al Shrai. And I was literally told he cannot go to the toilet without checking in with the Turks. The Turkish intelligence agency, known through its acronym mit, is believed to completely control Ahmed Al Shira and his forces. And then there's the third camp, which you completely, deeply suspicious of him and believe that the sanctions being lifted were premature. And that is the likes of Israel, for example, and the Emiratis, who don't like him there, don't think that the west should trust him. And by the way, Donald Trump was completely caught off guard by this attack.
- [18:02]
Richard Engel
I heard the exact same. I heard he was not pleased.
- [18:05]
Yalda
His White House press secretary actually came out and said, you know, we work very well with Benjamin Netanyahu, but the president does not want to continue to see the bombing of certain ministries inside Damascus. He does not want to continue to see churches bombed inside Gaza, which is exactly what happened last week, which does show us the fractures from within. So, you know, there are a number of different things going on, and not just about the Druze community, but that is something that has triggered this wider conversation about Ahmad Al Shira, his legitimacy.
- [18:38]
Richard Engel
I mean, Syria went through the most horrific civil war. We talk about it. Yeah. Like, oh, you know, after 13 years of civil war, this new Islamist leader, the civil war was so destructive and so horrific and how repressive the Assad regime became. To deal with the civil war is hard to convey in words, unless you were there, as we both were, and saw the torture devices and saw these mass prisons and saw the desperation of the people. So for them to come out of this civil war and now be faced with the prospect of going back into another one, strictly for regional reasons, strictly because you've got maybe the Turks trying to control him and the Saudis trying to peel him away, and the Israelis deeply skeptical of him, so they've chosen the Druze. And if Syria falls back into civil war because of this lack of trust and the regional dynamics that are playing out, the Syrian people will be the most unfortunate people in the world to have just gone through 13 years of civil war, had a couple of, literally a couple of months of hope, and then to see the country now breaking apart again.
- [19:51]
Yalda
Yeah. And that is why President Trump has called Benjamin Netanyahu to try and put a lid on this, to not ensure that Syria is suddenly, you know, up in flames internally and being bombed externally. And we did have a listener email comment from Kim, who wrote in and said Trump wants that Nobel Peace Prize more than anything on this earth. And after the break, we're going to talk little bit more about how Donald Trump thinks he might be able to achieve this. So before the break, we talked about that email that we got from Kim talking about Donald Trump wanting that Nobel Peace Prize wanting to achieve peace in the Middle east and of course talking about the need to end the situation in Gaza, so desperately needed for Palestinians. And Richard, we talk about this a lot, but the situation there is being described by the UN Secretary General as a horror show. It is being described as sickening by the Foreign Secretary of Britain and he has hinted that Britain is likely to take further action over the course of the next few weeks if Israel doesn't agree to a ceasefire and bringing this to an end. Just over the course of the last few days, 25 countries have accused Israel of drip feeding aid to Gaza. These are not countries that are hostile towards Israel. These are allies of Israel, the uk, Australia, Japan, France. These countries have been coming out and continue to say the situation there is, you know, unsustainable. People are suffering, they're starving, they're dying. We continue to see children dying as a result of starvation. I saw a report that over a thousand people have now died trying to get aid from this Gaza humanitarian foundation. Every single day, dozens and dozens of people continue to be killed. Ehud Olmert, the former Prime Minister of Israel, described the situation as a concentration camp. He said war crimes are being committed. My question is, what will it take, other than statements of condemnation, other than these sort of words that we keep hearing from global leaders like horror show, what will it take to bring this situation to an end?
- [22:34]
Richard Engel
Well, Israelis that I'm speaking to and people who have advised the Israeli government are deeply worried about the long term implications of this, not just for the State of Israel, but for the Jewish people. They worry that if this continues, that it will create more antisemitism, that some of these actions, because they are so appalling to most people, that it will have a negative impact and a long tail that will harm the Jewish people as a whole. And that is a new kind of narrative. I didn't hear that from Israelis. Israelis initially were saying, oh, we need to do these actions in Gaza to protect ourselves in order to protect against antisemitism. But some are now worried that these actions are actually leading to more antisemitism, which is something that I hadn't been hearing from. Not just sort of from Jewish intellectuals. You heard it yourself, Ehud Ulmer, talking about making the analysis of or making the comparison to concentration camps. When the Jewish community itself is worried about this and worried about the long term impact that Gaza is going to have on them. I think that that is a sign potentially that things could change. But again, those same people don't believe that you're going to see this change as long as Netanyahu is in. Is in power. Because if you look at the things that they're discussing right now, Netanyahu and Trump, it's still talking about Gaza that is without the Palestinian. A Gaza that has. All the Palestinians are either moved to the south in this one particular area or moved out of the area of the Gaza Strip entirely. Moving people out, putting people watches. Will you round them up? How do you just imagine the logistics of what that would look, of forcibly displacing people out of a ruined wasteland?
- [24:30]
Yalda
Yeah. And what's been also a bit of an interesting development that we've been seeing over the course of the last week is the criticism of Israel coming out from some of the MAGA's evangelical wing.
- [24:44]
Richard Engel
That's important development.
- [24:45]
Yalda
This has happened for a couple of reasons, Richard, because of a wave of violence that we've seen against Palestinian Christians in the west bank and a Palestinian American brutally killed by settlers. And the other thing that we talked a little bit earlier about was an Israeli airstrike which struck Gaza's only Catholic church, which the IDF said was unintentional. And Donald Trump was apparently caught by surprise by this, called Benjamin Netanyahu and told him to say that this was a mistake, that they were not trying to target the only church in Gaza. So we saw Benjamin Netanyahu come out and, you know, call the Pope to express Israel's regret for the strikes. But we know that the Palestinian community is very diverse. It's very mixed. It's made up of Christians and Muslims and, you know, the Christian community, the Palestinian Christian community has felt this for the last 21 months as much as the Muslim Palestinian community. I remember the first Christmas after October 7th. I went to the west bank and all the stores were closed, the shutters were pulled down. People were saying there's no business, there's no. This is the busiest time in our calendar. And, you know, the churches were empty. The priests were saying to me, they don't expect anyone coming here this year for Christmas. And it was somber for them. They said to me that so many people are dying in, in Gaza that they didn't feel the need to mark this occasion. They didn't want to celebrate Christmas. That was in December of 2023, 20 months on. The situation is, is, you know, what we're hearing is, is a horror story.
- [26:29]
Richard Engel
Did you see the Christmas manger that they put up in Manger Square where they put baby Jesus? It was a, you know, a doll on a pile of rubble. Rubble. So they put on a pile of rubble to signify Gaza. And I remember talking to the priest who had put up the display and said, well, this is a story of a refugee who was being forced out, and he gave, you know, why was he born in a manger? He was born in a manger because he was a refugee on the run. And they were drawing parallels to that slaughter of the innocents and the persecution of Jesus as he was born and the situation in Gaza. So that's the parallels that they were drawing in Bethlehem. So, yes, the Christian, Christian community, the Christian Palestinian community is certainly feeling this and is probably. I'm not sure if everyone even knows there are Christian Palestinians.
- [27:18]
Yalda
Yeah, I mean, they're. They're, you know, and we just talked there about the MAGA base coming out and speaking up against what's been going on. Who would have thought that Trump's ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, coming out and saying, this violence, you know, against Americans and Palestinian Christians is too much called a terrorist. Marjorie Taylor Greene proposed slashing the 500 million in US military aid to Israel. And, you know, saying, the situation is unacceptable. We wouldn't have seen this many months ago. But now, increasingly, after the killing of 60,000 Palestinians and now the violence erupting in the west bank, increasingly there are voices coming out, speaking out and saying, this is unacceptable.
- [28:05]
Richard Engel
And it's interesting to note why. It's not that the Palestinians, Christians, are evangelical. There are very, very few evangelicals. Most of them are either Greek Orthodox or there's some Catholics. But the reason that the evangelicals are so caught up in the Israel story is because of prophecies. So there is this evangelical movement that is totally dedicated to helping Israel to fulfill this prophecy so that the Jews will gather and that there'll be a judgment Day and that the. That these prophecies will be fulfilled. So there is a huge evangelical movement that is very pro Israel, that is very pro Zionist. And that movement has been fiercely loyal to both President Trump and to the state of Israel. And some of those people, because of the attack on the church, because it's been more difficult for some Christians to get into. To get visas into Israel. And because of this killing you're talking about in the west bank, some of these evangelicals are saying, enough. We're not, like, we're not happy. And that's a big problem for Netanyahu, and it's a big problem for Trump because they are a rich, powerful bloc that is very politically active, very unified, and has been Very useful for both Trump and Netanyahu.
- [29:28]
Yalda
The question is, again, where are we with the ceasefire? I've been told we're about a week away. We'll have to wait and see what happens next in terms of a ceasefire, because once the ceasefire goes into place, and if it really is, you know, the final ceasefire and this war on the people of Gaza ends, what happens next? And the day after question is a massive one, which we will obviously try and tackle here on the podcast. But I also want to touch on the situation in Afghanistan. Richard. As you know, for almost 1400, we know that girls over the age of 12 have not been able to go to school. Women have been banned from university. The basic sort of idea of taking your child as a mother to a park is also banned by the Taliban. Women are being told not to allow other women to hear their voices when they're praying, for example. And now women who have gone out into the streets, very brave and courageous move to protest against this sort of idea of hijab, where they've been told to completely cover their faces, are protesting against this, have been rounded up and according to the un, detained. This happened in the last week or so, and they're very concerned about the welfare of these women. So we are getting reports that women have been rounded up by the Taliban for protesting against the compulsory wearing of not just the hijab. But they're describing the current way in which these women are wearing hijab as bad hijab. And that means that they're not covering their faces entirely.
- [31:12]
Richard Engel
Yalda. I lived in Afghanistan for about two and a half years, and I went to so many of these events where there was a USAID project opening a new school. And I saw so many events that were also run by new Afghan ministries and initiatives. And they were always telling the girls, you're the future. You need to embrace the power that you're given. And then you are the light of the country. They were told that things had changed, that their education was a priority, that they were going to lead the nation. And for 20 years, it was actually true. And they were many more women getting an education and many more women included in society. And then to have that, that all ripped out from under, under them, in a way, it's worse than not having had the rights at all. You know, it's like, here, you give these rights, you get to practice with them a little bit, and then we're going to take them away.
- [32:11]
Yalda
Yeah, I think that's what I've always said about the Taliban of the 1990s that people came out of a civil war. Security was the priority. Women didn't know what they were missing out on. And frankly, for 20 years they were given these freedoms. And you know that sure, life was really tough for a lot of women in the country. They were still dealing with a lot of misogyny and brutality. But you know, those shelters that protected women from things like domestic violence have all shut down women. The women's ministry was shut down. Education, basic rights have been shut down. Women have completely disappeared from the public eye. And now we're hearing women being rounded up because they're not wearing the kind of dress and hijab that the Taliban want them to to wear. So I will obviously always continue to track this story, but I just wanted to highlight it here on the podcast. Well, have you got a prediction for the next week or so?
- [33:17]
Richard Engel
Richard, I'm going to take your prediction from last week. Yours. You said watch Syria and you were right. So I'm going to say the same thing. Watch Syria. I think things are, are happening there and I think that we one is fixable in a way that I don't think that the ceasefire in Gaza is probably going to fix that one.
- [33:32]
Yalda
I think, Richard, for me, we are deep into the summer offensive in Ukraine, something we've seen over the last few years. And I will be interested to see how Russia now handles itself, whether they are going to this particular summer offensive that we're likely to see how bloody it's likely to get where Ukraine comes out of this once the United States, whether it can deliver, deliver those weapons and flood Ukraine with the kind of weapons that it needs, where it leaves this particular conflict by sort of September, October. So I'll be watching the situation in Ukraine very closely over the next few weeks.
- [34:13]
Richard Engel
Can I make one long term projection before we go?
- [34:16]
Yalda
Go for it.
- [34:18]
Richard Engel
One of the things that I didn't really, you know, I noticed and we've talked about a lot, but I'm not sure if it's caught on, on the sort of public awareness is that NATO countries just agreed, except for Spain, but pretty much all of NATO countries agreed to increase their spending on defense to 5%. Where are they going to get this money? I don't know where they get this money. So my prediction is they're either going to have to have, you may have some federal European tax coming because I don't know where it's coming. I don't know where they're going to. Where's Italy going to get this money? Where's Germany going to get this money? Certain countries may have it, but a lot of them. So if they're all going to have to spend 5% for European collective security, I wouldn't be surprised if down the line there's some European collective tax to pay for all of that.
- [35:03]
Yalda
I think that's a really important issue, and we should be tracking that because it keeps coming up with Europeans saying where exactly these pledges are being made, where exactly are you going to get the money and who's going to be most impacted? Richard, always really good to talk to you and to see you, even though you've got a different outfit on.
- [35:21]
Richard Engel
I can't wait to get out, out of this building, take the suit off and go back to go back to work. It's important. You got to come into the headquarters every once in a while, show your face, take the temperature of the room. But yeah, this is, this is, this is.
- [35:34]
Yalda
You're happier in the field.
- [35:35]
Richard Engel
I am much happier in the field.
- [35:37]
Yalda
Well, thank you so much to our listeners for listening. And Richard, see you soon.
- [35:42]
Richard Engel
See you soon. Yalda, always great to see you. Great conversation today.