← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Why Palestinian statehood won’t stop the starvation
00:43:25
Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer announced that the UK would recognise the state of Palestine in September if Israel does not accept certain conditions, including a ceasefire – but what will this actually mean? Yalda thinks that there are better...
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- [00:06]
Yalda Hakim
We're gonna be getting some good, strong food. We can save a lot of people. I mean, some of those kids are. That's real starvation stuff. I see it. And you can't fake that.
- [00:19]
Richard Engel
Hello, this is the world. I'm Yalda Hakim, and I'm currently in London.
- [00:25]
Keir Starmer
Water supplies, fuel supplies, food, medical supplies. God damn it. Baby formula being used as an instrument of occupation and as an instrument of war.
- [00:39]
Dr. Nick Maynard
One day they'd be coming in predominantly with gunshot wounds to the head or the neck, another day to the chest, another day to the abdomen. And it seemed to us like this was almost like a game of target practice.
- [00:54]
Keir Starmer
Today, I can confirm the UK will recognize the state of Palestine in September unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza.
- [01:10]
Angel Pfeffer
And I'm Richard Engel in Lisbon.
- [01:26]
Richard Engel
Richard, how have you been since I last saw you last weekend in the United States? Or should I call you Bon Jovi? Because that seems to be what listeners have been saying about mostly your hair.
- [01:39]
Angel Pfeffer
That's very funny. Hey, it could be worse. And you know what? I, I don't know him directly, but I have a very good friend who is very excellent friends with him, and he's a fan of the news. He's a good guy, and he's got great hair. So, hey, you know, could be a lot worse. And, and, and what about you? I, I, I've, I've come back to Lisbon, but I'm feeling a little bit under the weather. You know, when you come back from that long, a long trip and you're feverish and your mouth tastes like pennies and you're just starting to feel achy and sore. So that's how I woke up this morning. So it's great to be home, but I wish I wasn't sweating the bed sheets.
- [02:14]
Richard Engel
Yeah, I, to be honest, are feeling a little bit under the weather, too. I don't know if it's hitting a brick wall after this kind of massive news period that we have had and Frank going on for the last 22 months. We're coming up to two years since October 7th and the war in Gaza began. And, and again, we're going to really have a big focus on, on Gaza. On the podcast today, the un, the World Health Organization, global leaders, even politicians like Donald Trump have come out and said, enough. You know, if we don't act now, and Israel does not let substantial amounts of a, There will be famine and thousands could die.
- [03:00]
Angel Pfeffer
The official Israeli policy. And they are pushing it, and they are pushing it. Hard and they are going after journalists who say otherwise is that there is no famine in Gaza, that it is a lie, that it is a Hamas lie. But Israel nonetheless did bow to pressure a little bit over the weekend. It's allowing daily pauses in the fighting to facilitate the transfer of aid. And I've learned a lot more about how this Gaza humanitarian foundation, this US and Israeli backed group of contractors, security contractors, works, why it doesn't work, why people are getting killed when they try to collect aid. So yes, Israel made an agreement, but it's really and allowed in some more airdrops, but it is just a drop in the bucket according to aid agencies. And you still have this situation where people are at enormous risk to try and collect aid.
- [03:55]
Richard Engel
Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to talk you through the situation on the ground. As we've been saying for, for months and months and months since the beginning of this whole situation, international journalists haven't been allowed inside Gaza. But we've been speaking every day to people who have been there, who have witnessed the situation on the ground. And we're going to talk you through what it's like being there.
- [04:18]
Angel Pfeffer
And a question I think we should ask is what will the effect of this war be on Israel's long term future? For now it has the United States side. But as more and more countries recognize Palestine as a state and we'll get into that, sanction Israeli politicians and as world opinion turns against Israel, what will this mean for the country's long term feasibility? And as always, follow us wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe to our YouTube channel and I or someone else looking like Bon Jovi apparently will get back to you with answers.
- [05:02]
Richard Engel
So Richard, for the last 22 months, almost two years, we've been covering extensively the situation in Gaza and the, the issue around food and aid has been a massive focal point. The un, the World Food Program, all these aid agencies and international leaders have been pulling their hair out. They've been working in Gaza for, for decades and they've been saying we need to food aid trucks into the Gaza Strip. Not enough food is reaching the most needy. There is going to be famine and starvation if the situation doesn't change. And then of course in March of this year we saw an 11 week blockade which was imposed. No food, no aid was allowed inside the Gaza Strip. And that was because Israel was saying that Hamas and other gangs were seizing it. The international community and aid aid organizations operating within Gaza were saying that was not the case, that they weren't seeing evidence of Hamas taking, you know, the, the aid, and that this was impacting the most desperate women and children. And then in the last 24 hours, Richard, a UN backed global food security body known as the IPC said that the worst case scenario of famine was unfolding in the Gaza Strip. So we have all seen those images of starving babies, starving children, and, you know, who were just skin and bones. This is a desperate situation now that has even had people like Donald Trump sit up and notice and say, you can't fake this. People there are starving. We need to get food into the Gaza Strip.
- [06:48]
Yalda Hakim
We're going to be getting some good, strong food. We can save a lot of people. I mean, some of those kids are. That's real starvation stuff. I see it. And you can't fake that. So we're going to be even more involved.
- [07:03]
Angel Pfeffer
Do you think we're reaching some sort of turning point where this is a real moment where international outrage and outcries will change the course? Or is this just another blip on the road because we're seeing a lot more. You're seeing Trump say there is real starvation there, that you can't fake these images. The Australian Prime Minister said that it is beyond comprehension that Israel claims that there is no starvation in Gaza. The Israelis responded, saying that is a lie. There were two human rights groups in Israel, including perhaps the most prominent one, Beit Selim, who said that Israel is now committing a genocide. And let me quote the group's director, he said, nothing prepares you for the realization that you are part of a society committing genocide is a deeply painful moment for us. So is this a moment of change, Yalden, with this sort of groundswell, or do you think this too shall pass and things will just remain, you know, horrors and people nod their heads and shrug their shoulders and move on to the next thing?
- [08:07]
Richard Engel
The Prime Minister here, Sir Keir Starmer, at a press conference with Donald Trump, said the British public were revolted by what they were seeing on their screens. And Donald Trump acknowledged that. And I do think that it will take someone like Trump and pressure from Trump to force the Israeli government to change course, to do something that, you know, will ensure that the people of Gaza will not starve to death. As you say, it does make a difference when, you know, prominent Israeli human rights groups start accusing Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. And you, you quoted there, Bet Salem, who was talking about mass killing of Gazans, large scale destruction of infrastructure. Ye, I do think the pressure is.
- [08:55]
Angel Pfeffer
Starting to build, but Bayt Selim is not in the government generally. Speaking, these are not the people who are lined up with Netanyahu. Netanyahu is in government with a group of, of. Of settlers and other, you know, let's call them religious Zionists who believe that what they're doing is right and that actually all aid should be cut to Gaza to punish Hamas until Hamas releases its last hostages dead and alive. And, and I think it's important to sort of step back. How can you have a reality now in 2025 where you can have an area that is closed off to journalists, by the way, that's radically unusual in conflicts we almost always get into where we want to get into, so we're not allowed in the give. The Israelis say, no, no, nothing going on here. No famine. It's armed Hamas militants who are taking the food, and maybe they're even doing the shooting. We don't know. And they're. They're able to deny what's going on there. And the world is left in this, he said, she said. And because there aren't actual people on the ground who viewers and listeners know and trust, it all ends up in this kind of vague, he said, she said. Since our last broadcast, I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on with this Gaza Humanitarian foundation and spoken to sort of quite a few people about the program. And I tried to figure out why it is that so many people are getting killed and how it's related to this pause in military activities. And what I think is important to understand is, okay, you've got the Gaza Strip not very far away on the Mediterranean, very accessible, close a place that shouldn't be completely isolated from the world, but which is nonetheless. Aid workers basically aren't allowed in there. So eight agencies aren't operating in there. And there is this weird militarized distribution network called the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, and it's run through two American subcontractors. And they recruit people who worked in the US Military or police force, and they send them into Gaza with very little rules of engagement. And they're there and they corral.
- [11:14]
Richard Engel
People.
- [11:14]
Angel Pfeffer
And shoot at people and try and move the crowds along to get them into these stations by gunfire. It's a terrible situation where you have a militarized force moving people through lanes, if you will, that are in military areas. And if they step out of the lanes, they either get warning shots over their heads or at their feet or sometimes into the crowds. It's a dystopian reality that is in the Mediterranean that we can, in theory, all get to. And there have been many attempts to try and fix this. So the question that I have is there's all this outrage, but there doesn't seem to be the will of the government in power. The government is still denying that all of this is taking place. Their only concession was to allow some airdrops, to suspend some military activities while those Palestinians are trying to run this gauntlet to get some food in these militarized areas and to call it a lie and blame the people who are reporting about it. So Beit Selim is talking. Keir Starmer's talking. Trump, as you point out, may be the most important one here, but is he consistent enough? Is he going to move on to the next thing and get convinced it's quite desperate for the Palestinians? And I'm not, I'm not sure, because more people are criticizing. I'm not sure we've reached that groundswell moment, but I could be wrong. We'll see.
- [12:46]
Richard Engel
Yeah, I mean, there's certainly international outrage at the moment. The UK has now said that basically sent a clear message to Israel. Either make peace, you know, agree to a ceasefire, or we will recognize the state of Palestine in September.
- [13:04]
Keir Starmer
Today, as part of this process towards peace, I can confirm the UK will recognize the state of Palestine by the United Nations General assembly in September, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, agree to a ceasefire and commit to a long term sustainable peace, reviving the prospect of, of a two state solution. And this includes allowing the UN to restart the supply of aid and making clear that there will be no annexations in the West Bank. Meanwhile, our message to the terrorists of Hamas is unchanged but unequivocal. They must immediately release all of the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, disarm and accept that they will play no part in the government of Gaza. And we'll make an assessment in September on how far the parties have met these steps. But no one should have a veto over our decision.
- [14:13]
Richard Engel
It's again, allies of Israel trying to put pressure on Israel to say, listen, what's happening is unacceptable and we need you to take concrete steps to accept a ceasefire deal, bring an end to the fighting, or we are going to basically in September, recognize the state of Palestine. I don't know what you think about this situation, this conference that Macron has launched and what the UK government is now saying about, you know, recognizing Palestinian statehood. That feels to me like what should be the end prize. The focus right now should be pressuring Israel today in this moment to accept A ceasefire deal, ensure that enough aid enters the Gaza Strip so that the hungry people of Gaza get what they need right now. Because talk of statehood is not going to feed the people of Gaza. Sure. I think it's important, of course, and it is a goal. The two state solution is a goal that everyone in the international community has been saying that they're working towards. But you spoke there about the Gaza Humanitarian foundation and the practices there, the fact that over a thousand people have died trying to get food. I spoke to a British surgeon, he was called Nick Maynard, just in the last few days. And I just want you to and our listeners to listen to what he had to say about what he witnessed, what he saw. And he described it as, as target practice by the idf. Let's just have a listen. Well, it's being described by the UN and others as a death trap. Those who had been there have described the situation there where, you know, the soldiers are opening fire on the civilians queuing up.
- [15:59]
Dr. Nick Maynard
And I operate on many of those children. I saw young teenage boys, sometimes as young as 11, 12, 13, who had been shot at these food distribution points. They had gone there to get food for their starving families and they were being shot. And I operate on many of them. One 12 year old boy died on the operating table when we were operating because his injuries were so severe. And what was even more distressing was the pattern of injuries that we saw, the clustering of injuries to particular body parts on certain days. So one day they'd be coming in predominantly with gunshot wounds to the head or the neck, another day to the chest, another day to the abdomen. And I operated one day on half a dozen young boys, all of whom had severe abdominal injuries. One day, 12 days ago, four young teenage boys came in, all of whom had been shot in the testicles and deliberately so. And this is not coincidental. The clustering was far, far too obvious to be coincidental. And it seemed to us like this was almost like a game of target practice. We're going to shoot the head today. Tomorrow it'll be the chest, the next day it'll be the testicles. I would never have believed this possible unless I'd witnessed this with my own eye.
- [17:20]
Richard Engel
Dr. Nick Maynard is not spewing out Hamas propaganda when you put those statements that he has made. Someone who has, has traveled to Gaza. This is now his third trip to Gaza since October 7th. He has been working in Gaza for decades. He, you know, understands the Gaza Strip, the, the hospitals. When he says something like that, he is not parroting Hamas propaganda. He is telling us what he is witnessing, who he is he is treating, and what he is saying there is. When he describes it as, you know, a cluster of injuries, or he describes it as a target practice or a game, you know, the world needs to sit up and pay attention to what doctors like him are saying on a.
- [18:05]
Angel Pfeffer
Daily basis, but the Israeli government is denying it. They say that this is Hamas propaganda, that this is not true, that there is no starvation in Gaza and that they don't shoot at civilians in any way, let alone for target practice. And very few people are in a position to dispute them. You talked about statehood and how it's not gonna put food in people's mouths and it should come at the end of the process, 100%. It was always supposed to come at the end of the process, but it is a tool that can be used to pressure Netanyahu specifically because he doesn't want Palestinian statehood. He's opposed to the two state solution. He doesn't want there to be a Palestine of any short of any form, and his coalition doesn't want there to be any kind of Palestine.
- [18:54]
Richard Engel
But I wonder, yes, it should have come at the end of the process and it is a tool and tactic to pressure the Israeli government. But what about maybe, I don't know, an arms embargo for the French and the British and the Americans to say, we are not going to send you supplies of anything you want to go to two state solution? Absolutely do that. But what about today? What about the guns and the bombs and the ammunition that you're selling?
- [19:21]
Angel Pfeffer
The US just sent an extra $30 million to this Gaza humanitarian foundation. So aside from the, you know, I don't want to say crocodile tears, because maybe they're real, but aside from expressions of regret and now, you know, a movement to add some extra kind of political sanctions, yes, you could, you could stop the money, you could stop the weapons, but that's not.
- [19:44]
Richard Engel
But you know, rather than saying, we're just going to, we're going to create another state here, you know, and recognize. Sure, but why don't you do what you're doing behind the scenes, you know, and have an arms embargo today. Tell Israel if by the end of this month you don't let the food aid in, you know, and stop, you know, with the bombing campaign of the people of Gaza, we are going to stop sending you the ammunitions, the aid, the support, the money that you need to continue this campaign.
- [20:15]
Angel Pfeffer
And I think it goes back to that question we raised right at the top. It will only come when enough Israelis think this is harming them, this is harming Israel's long term future, long term viability. I think you'll really only see a change when the, when the Israelis realize this is going to backfire, this is going to backfire against us. We're never going to be able to live this one down. This is doing more harm than good.
- [20:37]
Richard Engel
You remember when Donald Trump swore on the lawns of the White House and said, you know, these people, this lot, Israel and Iran don't know what they're doing. And I think what it will take is also, you're correct about, you know, it will take the people of Israel to perhaps, you know, come election time, punish Benjamin Netanyahu. And because they do want, when you look at all the polls, they do want this water to come to an end. But will it take Benjamin Netanyahu pissing off Donald Trump enough for Donald Trump to say, okay, enough, I've had enough of this. You need to wrap this up now.
- [21:13]
Angel Pfeffer
I don't see Kushner is very tight with Netanyahu. They're very tight. The ambassador is Huckabee. I, I don't know. I think they can escalate. There'll be a war of words. But a total divorce between Trump and Israel, Trump and Netanyahu, I don't see it. And the Israelis, of course, would say, yalda, Richard, you people are totally crazy. Hamas is a terrorist group. We should be talking about their atrocities. We should be talking about the hostages who've been kept underground for also nearly two years. How they're still alive is shocking. And you know, been effectively living in a tomb. So truly atrocious. And that's not justifying it. But when you do have collective punishment on the, on the population, then it's starting to raise serious questions and doubts.
- [22:03]
Richard Engel
Let's go to a break, Richard. And when we come back, we'll be speaking about what Israeli society is feeling and thinking right now.
- [22:11]
Angel Pfeffer
Can't wait.
- [22:32]
Richard Engel
Welcome back to the World podcast. And earlier, Richard, I spoke to Angel Pfeffer. He is a prolific writer about all things to do with Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu. He grew up there. He covered Benjamin Netanyahu for years as a journalist for the Economist. He's also the author of the Turbulent Life and Times of Benjamin Netanyahu. Let's just have a little listen. Thank you so much for joining us here on the World podcast. I just want to get your assessment of just the Israeli government policy right now. There is talk of famine of starvation, of how this war has been been executed, of international outcry of the images they're seeing, and also pressure building around the Netanyahu government. But it doesn't feel in this moment that any of this pressure is pushing them to budge in any meaningful way.
- [23:38]
Unnamed Expert
Well, that's because there hasn't been a serious strategy for this war. I know it sounds incredible. We're talking about a war which is, in a week and a half is going to be 22 months old. So we're nearly two years of war. And when you talk of strategy for a war, you need a strategy which is not just how to carry out military operations. It's what's the diplomatic strategy, what's the end goals. And the day after plan. And as we're seeing now then is also to be when you're. When the war is happening in an area which is so full of civilians as well. And Hamas launched this war back in October 7, 2023, from an area. They attacked Israeli civilians and then they took cover behind their own Palestinian civilians. There needs to be also a comprehensive plan on how to take care of those civilians during this period. And we've seen so much of that lacking now. Some people will say, well, actually there's some kind of a secret, terrible strategy to just to do away with that population. I haven't seen any clear sign of that. What I have seen is very much a lack of serious planning, mainly just because Netanyahu as a politician has always been very bad on, on having any kind of real diplomatic strategy beyond how he thinks is or should be confronting its enemy. There also needs to be diplomatic strategy. There isn't. And the whole humanitarian issue didn't even interest him until. Until very recently.
- [25:22]
Richard Engel
Yeah, I mean, you've spent part of your career analyzing, assessing, trying to understand Benjamin Netanyahu. There are those who are critical of the idea that perhaps he is a victim of circumstance, that, you know, somehow he's squeezed between these far right ministers who, you know, are pushing him and saying things that are incredibly disturbing. And say Donald Trump, or he's worried about a base, or he's worried about the upcoming election, that this is his ruthless policy and strategy in the Gaza Strip vis a vis the Palestinians. Would you agree with that?
- [26:04]
Unnamed Expert
These are circumstances of his own making. This is the coalition he built. He built a coalition of far right and ultra religious parties. So to say now that he is somehow trapped by these circumstances. Perhaps that's true, but this is a trap of his own making. He's maneuvered himself into this. He didn't have to form this government. Previous Likudd leaders before. Netanyahu is not the first Likud leader. They were previously good leaders who refused to work with these very far right parties. Netanyahu broke that taboo. He legitimized these parties. Now they're trying to force him, or perhaps he wants to be forced into a very radical policy. This is something that he decided upon. And as it comes to his policies towards the Palestinians. Netanyahu does not have a policy towards the Palestinians. His policy throughout his political career has basically to try and ignore, downplay, sideline the Palestinian issue. And now he's always focused on what he thinks and what he claims are the real mortal enemies of Israel, most recently in the last 20 years or so, Iran. And he's always called the Palestinian issue a rabbit hole. You know, for him, the Palestinian issue was never something that Israel needs to solve. It was a distraction. He claimed that it was an issue being overblown by various either gullible actors or nefarious actors who want to use it as somehow as a lever to weaken Israel. And then on October 7, when Hamas attacked Israel and this war began as a result, Netanyahu really had no real answer how to deal with this. And we're seeing this constantly. When he does come up with a plan, it's a totally outlandish plan. Obviously, Donald Trump is the one who articulated that crazy Mara Gaza plan of Riviera on the Mediterranean. So, you know, Donald Trump was musing and as he does, nothing came out of it. We haven't heard him speak about it again for months now. And it's a totally unfeasible plan. And more recently, there was this plan that he called. He called the humanitarian city, which they to kind of build some massive encampment in a tiny corner in South Gaza where all the people of Gaza would somehow be shoved into that area while the Israeli army would destroy Hamas, what was left of Hamas. The army itself said this is both unfeasible logistically, but it's also something which is an obvious war crime. It's ethnic cleansing without any doubt. There's no real idea why this is going to end. And as a result, we've been in this war, which I think Israel had no choice but to go to, because Hamas attacked Israel in the way it did. But this war has been totally mismanaged, both on the military way, because the army doesn't have clear objectives. It hasn't had clear objectives for most of this war. And there's no diplomatic or humanitarian strategies there to complement the war plans.
- [29:16]
Richard Engel
So what then do you say to prominent Israeli rights groups that have accused this government of genocide, for example? And there are a lot of reports about starvation not just happening out of the blue, that, you know, it takes 60 to 80 days for people to starve, so there has to be some kind of policy that leads to it being what it is today.
- [29:40]
Unnamed Expert
Well, once again, that's a two part question. The first question is the definition of genocide. There is a disagreement between experts and lawyers on this issue. I think as journalists we have one standard which is we need to prove that there was an intent for genocide. And I'm seeing mainly a lack of a plan, I'm not seeing a plan for genocide when it comes to the starvation issue. I think that what we're seeing now is really an accumulation of reports, some of them seem to be reliable, of a salvation condition in Gaza. And what's caused it is basically a breakdown of the system which existed before for distributing food in Gaza, partly because of the war, partly because Israel for the last three or four months has tried to replace the existing system with this very badly organized, very insufficient hub distribution hubs by this shadowy organization called the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Perhaps if from the very beginning of the war, when Israel responded to the Hamas attack, there was a plan of how to continue feeding the people in Gaza while the war was going on, then maybe an apparatus could have been built up which could have somehow replaced the existing system. But this is, we're talking now 22 months into the war when so much has been destroyed in Gaza, so much of the roads, any type of distribution center, warehouses, any capacity for growing and manufacturing food in Gaza, which some of it did exist before the war, none of that is there now. So to come now in and say, say, okay, we'll open a few distribution centers and that's going to work. That is totally ridiculous. Now some people will say, well, Israelis are doing this on purpose to starve Gaza. Some people, and I'm one of them, think this is a lot more incompetent and also some kind of apathetic thinking about this. But the result is clear, this strategy over the last three or four months of replacing the distribution mechanism in Gaza has totally failed. And that is one of the main contributors of the starvation. The other main contributor is the fact that so many of the, of the routes in Gaza, you just can't, you can't drive a convoy through them. So you have areas in Gaza where there is food, but there are also many Areas where you just can't reach them with convoys. And those are the areas where, where the hunger, where the starvation situation has been created.
- [32:26]
Richard Engel
What about the people of Israel? Where does it leave them? Because it feels very much like there are only two groups that can stop Benjamin Netanyahu. One is the people of Israel, and if they go to an election and vote him out, and the other is Donald Trump, if he decides to put his foot down and say, you know, enough. But if we think about the people of Israel, you know, what is the mood like at the moment?
- [32:53]
Unnamed Expert
Well, you can't talk about Israelis as a monolith. If you look at the polls, you'll see Israelis are divided and polarized in many of the issues, as are most societies in the world nowadays. But actually on this issue of a ceasefire, of ending the war, and obviously for Israelis, the most important thing in ending this war is releasing the remaining hostages to at least 20 live hostages being held in Gaza now for over 660 days. So for the huge majority of Israelis we've seen the most recent polls, the numbers are as high as 72, 73% of Israelis want to end this war with a hostage release agreement, and they're prepared for Israeli forces to withdraw from Gaza as part of that. But the problem is that you can have 99% of the population thinking something, it doesn't matter as long as there's an elected government, which still, Netanyahu has, in this case, over a year of its term left. So the elections could be held in Israel as late as October 26th. Public opinion obviously matters Netanyahu, but it can't dictate things. So as you mentioned, the only other force which can force Netanyahu to make a decision is the man in the White House, Donald Trump. And I think we probably wouldn't have seen Israel in the last few days reopening routes for convoys and agreeing to these kind of humanitarian pauses in parts of Gaza which allow convoys to go through. If it wasn't for the pressure from the Trump administration, at least that's what we're hearing. But what happens next is now very much dependent on whether Trump gives the green light for another radical Israeli plan. At least what we're hearing about path annexation or siege, or whether he said, no, no, no, you've done enough of these plans. None of them have worked. Hamas is still there. Yes, it's greatly weaker, but it's still fighting. They're still holding hostages. You need to go for a deal now. And we're all kind of waiting here for Trump to make a decision. The people around Trump, obviously there are different people there trying to pull him in different directions. And every interview and every conversation I've had, like the one we're having now over the last few months ends on the same note. But it all depends on what Trump will think and do. And I think neither of us have a good way of predicting on any issue what Trump will end up doing or saying.
- [35:16]
Richard Engel
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Anshell Pfeffer, it's been really fascinating talking to you and getting an insight into the politics and also what Benjamin Netanyahu may be thinking and doing. I'm really grateful for your time.
- [35:36]
Angel Pfeffer
Interesting, Yelda, that he blames it on incompetence as opposed to policy, that this is what the Netanyahu government wants. You know, I tend, as we were talking about last time, to think of this conflict in much broader terms. You know, 1948, Israel was attacked by Arabs and they lost and Israel expanded. 1967, Israel was attacked again and expanded and Palestinians were expelled. Almost two years ago. On October 7, 2023, Israel was attacked again, this time from Gaza. And Israel has expanded into several countries and has Palestinians on the move. And I think we're seeing that pattern time after time. And each time in those specific conflicts, Israel has never given back except the Sinai in Egypt. Israel hasn't given back the territory that it's taken. So I'm not sure this is over yet. There's an outcry, sure. But I think Netanyahu does have a plan. It's much longer term plan and he's improvising to try and save his coalition, but he's been doing this for a long time. This is a guy who's improvised coalitions and worked the mechanics of the Israeli parliamentary system for two decades now and worked it to his favor.
- [36:49]
Richard Engel
And just to your point, then talking about the different conflicts over the course of the, over the course of the course of several decades, we've got a listener question here via email. Neel, who says, do you see lasting peace for the Middle East? You know, we spoke a few weeks ago. What are you, why don't you start, Richard? You know, I talked to you about what, you know, someone from the, a prominent person from the Israeli intelligence community who predicted to me that this situation would go on for at least a decade already. And at the time it was sort of straight after October 7th. And I thought a decade, Are you kidding me? You know, but he has been in this for long enough to know that the these things don't just come to an end and then they evolve into something else.
- [37:32]
Angel Pfeffer
Israel is clearly the dominant power right now across the Middle east and has shown that that's not going to last forever.
- [37:39]
Richard Engel
Yeah, absolutely, Richard. And before we go, last week we spoke a lot about the situation in Afghanistan for women and girls, which is truly horrifying. You and I have both covered that country for, for a long time. We've got some questions on that as well. Let's just go through them. Michael sent a question, a couple of questions on email. He's talked about the fact that, you know, can ordinary Afghans, can ordinary people inside Afghanistan influence the government?
- [38:06]
Angel Pfeffer
Yeah, I see his question right here. Do you want to take it? It says, who did the Taliban work for? Do they get their money from Afghanistan? And is there any way for ordinary people inside Afghanistan to influence the government? What do you say?
- [38:19]
Richard Engel
What we know about authoritarian regimes and this is an insurgency turned government, which is never, I think, a good idea because what do insurgenc know about running the Education department, the Health department? You know, I think in the 21st century when your policy is that girls should not go to school, there is a fundamental problem with that. And my question has always been to the Taliban. Why not focus your war on ISIS? Why have you got a war against 12 year old girls and you know, they can't answer me, rather than taking on the militants that are, that have become a problem for you and launching terrorist attacks, attacks not just in Afghanistan, but, you know, on theater goers in Russia, for example, they are targeting and focused on launching a war on women and girls in Afghanistan.
- [39:12]
Angel Pfeffer
And in this case, ISIS and the Taliban sort of agree on what women should and should not be allowed to do. You know, they might be sworn enemies on who gets to dominate the jihad and who gets to dominate the battlefront against the infidels. But in terms of women and things like that, I think they're pretty much on the same page. But to answer that guy's Michael's question, they are an Afghan group, they are an insurgency, they are hopelessly fundamentalist and they can't seem to get out of their own way. And they're also having starvation there and.
- [39:47]
Richard Engel
For decades funded and trained and backed by the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI and the military. And they've been madrasses that have, you know, radicalized these young children who have gone on to join the jihad in Afghanistan in Pakistan. And for years the Afghan government and the Americans knew this, you know, that the sanctuaries were in Pakistan when a Taliban fighter would get injured in Afghanistan. You know, they would be taken across the border and treated in Pakistan that they were being radicalized and hardened in madrasas in Pakistan. But the Pakistani government does not have a stranglehold over the Taliban now that they're running the place. You know, they're basically doing it their way. And there are skirmishes on the border with the Pakistani military as well. So it is a complicated situation and the Afghan people, especially women and girls are trapped in this, you know, society where one time terrorists and militants are running the place.
- [40:45]
Angel Pfeffer
And they're so linked to that madrasa or Islamic school, fundamentalist Islamic school, I think it's fair to say the way the, I saw some of these madrassas in Pakistan you learn by rote. It's very extreme. But just memorizing over and over it's certain passages of the, of the Quran that focus on sort of war fighting and, and just, it's just a constant, constant droning on of this, this mentality and it's such a part of the movement that that's what the movement became named for. Taliban means madrasa students.
- [41:16]
Richard Engel
Yeah. Well, we can have these conversations, Richard, all day and I have to remind our listeners that we're going to take a bit of a break over August, over the holiday period. Are you doing anything interesting? Spending time with the family.
- [41:31]
Angel Pfeffer
That's what I'm going to be doing. I maybe bit off more than I could chew in the recent months. I've been all over the world. I went to, I don't know, Tehran three, four times and then to the, to the States and then Israel and crossing borders by land and then went to New York and I just got back and I feel under the weather and still nobody's here. So Mary and Theo, my five year old son will be back soon. They're still not back so I just want to stay here and spend some time with them. So no, don't have any beach holidays planned. Although Portugal is really nice. So I think I'll just do some stuff locally.
- [42:07]
Richard Engel
Stay at home?
- [42:08]
Angel Pfeffer
Yeah, stay at home.
- [42:08]
Dr. Nick Maynard
What about you?
- [42:09]
Angel Pfeffer
You have any?
- [42:10]
Richard Engel
I do. You know, we're to going, going to have a few weeks off and try and sort of, you know, hibernate and spend some time relaxing because this news cycle has been so relentless, so demanding and we're looking forward to coming back after the summer and bringing you more episodes.
- [42:30]
Angel Pfeffer
I can't wait. This is our first break. So this is us, you know, I think it's kind of a milestone. Here we go. So until we meet again, until we speak again. And obviously the two of us will be speaking before that, but until we speak again on this podcast, have a great summer.
- [42:46]
Richard Engel
Have a great summer, Richard. And thank you so much to all our listeners for your support, for following us, for tuning in every week or listening in every week. I can't seem to get the TV lingo out of my head.
- [42:59]
Angel Pfeffer
I know they're viewers.
- [43:01]
Richard Engel
They're still listeners. And thank you so much for listening.
- [43:09]
Angel Pfeffer
Sam.