← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Why Trump changed his mind on Ukraine
00:26:49
This week, Yalda and Richard discuss Donald Trump's big decision to send weapons to Ukraine through NATO. Why has he changed his mind? Yalda gives her take on the situation and why she thinks Trump is following a similar position to presidents before...
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- [00:06]
Yalda Hakim
Hello, this is the World with me, Yalda Hakim, and I'm currently in London.
- [00:10]
Richard Engel
And I'm Richard Engel and I'm in the States at the moment.
- [00:13]
Yalda Hakim
We're going to be together in the United States in the next few days. But what an extraordinary, frankly, few days for Ukraine it's been after almost three and a half years of this war. This, this week we saw a massive announcement from President Trump, almost this tonal u turn from him. And then, of course, new weapons. And the big question, what difference will it make to the situation in the battlefield?
- [00:41]
Donald Trump
We are going to be sending them weapons and they're going to be paying for them. We will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars that we end and perhaps most importantly, the wars we never get into.
- [01:00]
Richard Engel
We'll talk about what that means for Trump, what that means for the world, what it means for Ukraine. And has Trump actually changed his mind about Vladimir Putin?
- [01:09]
Donald Trump
Putin really surprised a lot of people. He talks nice and then he bombs everybody in the evening. There's a little bit of a problem there. I don't like it. Where are you from?
- [01:21]
Deborah Haynes
I'm from Ukraine. So my question to you is whether or not the US Is ready to sell anti air missile systems Patriot to Ukraine.
- [01:33]
Donald Trump
We're going to see if we can make some available. You know, they're very hard to get.
- [01:37]
Yalda Hakim
We'll also be talking about this huge data breach and then the COVID up by the UK Government surrounding the resettlement of Afghan refugees. And the question with that is, how serious is this?
- [01:50]
Richard Engel
And Yelda, I absolutely want to get your take on that. The UK Seems to be doing what the US has been reluctant to do, which is take in thousands of people who served with the NATO coalition in Afghanistan, and as usual, follow us wherever you listen. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and write us@theworldky.uk.
- [02:16]
Yalda Hakim
So, Richard, let's get started with Ukraine. And of course, for the last three and a half years, both of us have traveled to the country multiple times. We've seen President Zelensky lobby his Western partners, turn up with a shopping list of weapons that he needs on the ground. And then, of course, Donald Trump returned to the White House. And one of the first things we saw him do was give this dressing down to the Ukrainian president. He said throughout the campaign that I am going to end this war in 24 hours. That he was the man who knew how to handle and deal with Vladimir Putin. Joe Biden had it wrong. Various other US Presidents had it Wrong. They had a special relationship. He had respect for Vladimir Putin. And he wasn't just going to appease this Ukrainian leader when he showed up at the White House dressed not in the way that Donald Trump would wanted him to be dressed. And yet how far has the relationship come now where there have been attempts by the Europeans, the French, by various other leaders to bring the two sides together? And I have to say, Richard, that Mark Rutter, the NATO Secretary General, I think, has played a pivotal role in this, in knowing how to play Donald Trump. We all cringed when he called Donald Trump daddy at the NATO summit a few weeks ago.
- [03:44]
Deborah Haynes
So, Deborah Haynes from Sky News, Mark Rutter, the NATO chief, who is your friend? He called you Daddy earlier. Do you regard your NATO allies as kind of children?
- [03:59]
Donald Trump
No, he likes me. I think he likes me. If he doesn't, I'll let you know. I'll come back and I'll hit him hard. Okay? He did. He did it very affectionately. Daddy. You're my daddy.
- [04:08]
Richard Engel
Deborah from Sky News, who was like, excuse me, and she was looking for him to say, is he your daddy? Who's your daddy? I mean, it was so ridiculous. President Trump was in the Hague. He was next to the new head of NATO. He was just saying, oh, yes, Daddy, you're so great. You're the best, and you're the best and you're so powerful. And Trump liked it and is now a fan of NATO. And just to catch everyone up. So according to this new arrangement, and President Trump and his whole MAGA movement has been deeply skeptical of the Ukraine war. And now instead, the US Is going to be selling through NATO, Ukraine, a lot of very sophisticated weapons, including weapons defense system. And it's all about NATO. It's all about this new relationship. Because President Trump now seems to like NATO, the organization that during his first term in office, he said was useless, that the people weren't paying enough dues. And now, according to this new arrangement, NATO will be buying the weapons from the United States, and then NATO will be giving them to Ukraine. It's certainly something the Ukrainians are happy about. I've been talking to Ukrainian friends. They're over the moon. They think maybe, maybe Trump has come over to their side and they don't know if it's going to. It's a mirage, but they're certainly going to drink the water until it disappears.
- [05:28]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. I mean, look at what's come out of this in the last few months. A minerals deal with Ukraine. So Donald Trump feels like he's got something in return for the assistance that the United States States has provided. And now a very sort of Trumpy act, you know, saying to Ukraine, we're going to give you the top of the line weapons, the weapons that you need, but it's going to be the Europeans who are going to pay for this. So we're going to give you the American weapons. It does feel in this moment that Ukraine has come out on top. However, I have spoken to Ukrainian MPs who say they're cautiously optimistic because Donald Trump is also an incredibly unpredictable figure and there's a lot of uncertainty around him now. One of the other things he's done, Richard, is he's threatened Russia with new tariffs if it doesn't strike up a deal to end the war with Ukraine within 50 days. He's threatened what he loves, severe tariffs of about 100%, which he called secondary tariffs if there is no deal. So he's given Vladimir Putin 50 days. And what we heard not just from Donald Trump at press conferences and when he's addressed the issue over the course of the last few days, but also in a BBC interview where he talked about his frustration with Vladimir Putin. He said, I thought he was a man of his word, and multiple times I thought we had a deal. And I say to the first lady, I just had a great conversation with, you know, my friend Vlad. And the first lady said, great. What did he say? Because he's just bombed a Ukrainian city and dozens of people have been killed. So I think for Donald Trump, like so many US Presidents before him, whether that's Bill Clinton who first dealt with Vladimir Putin, whether it was George W. Bush, whether it was Obama, whether it was Donald Trump the first time around, or Joe Biden. All of these presidents in their first terms think that they can somehow appease Vladimir Putin, and then they realize he's playing a double game with them. You know, Donald Trump approached Vladimir Putin from his worldview, which is a real estate mogul who knows how to deal with global issues through the perception and perspective of the New York real estate market and how he wheels and deals with that. Vladimir Putin comes from a maximalist KGB approach and background. So he deals with Donald Trump not just in a kind of wheeling and dealing approach, but he plays games. He plays the long game.
- [08:02]
Richard Engel
Is that what you think just happened here, Yelda? So you mentioned something interesting, that in their first terms, American presidents try and appease President Putin of Russia. And he's been around for a long time. So you were dealing with quite a few administrations. And then those American Presidents who are fortunate enough to have a second term realize appeasing didn't get us anywhere, and you have to get tough. Is that what you think happened with Trump in his first term? You think now that's what's happened? You realize this is a waste of time, and you better get tough and get tough through his newfound fondness for NATO.
- [08:36]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. I mean, you think about Bill Clinton, right, who turned a blind eye to Vladimir Putin's actions during the second Chechen War, where he completely ignored all the human rights abuses because he was trying to reach out to the Russians and try and change relations. George W. Bush said, I looked the man in the eyes and I saw his soul. But don't forget, you know, everyone criticizes Donald Trump and his appeasement of Vladimir Putin and the Russians, that Obama's entire policy was a reset to Russia and a pivot to Asia and kind of saying, well, there can be more than one superpower in the world, and why do we have to be the dominant ones? And why is it all about American exceptionalism? And why are we the only players in town? Let the Chinese come in. And if the Russians want to reset their relationship with us, why should we be their enemy, number one? And he realized, actually through frustration, that it was towards the end of his presidency that Crimea was annexed. And he realized that, actually, you know, through so much frustration of his own, that this guy operates in a completely different way to us.
- [09:46]
Richard Engel
You know what's often lost in this, when we talk about Ukraine, we always talk of them as if they're passive victims who are just there waiting for the Americans to. Or waiting for Trump to either like them or not like them or send the money or withhold it or humiliate their president in the Oval Office or now sort of reach out to him and want to be his friends. The other factor is the strength of the Ukrainian people, which is so significant. I think most other countries would have been gone by now. Most other armies would have folded at this stage. So I was in Ukraine when the Israeli surprise attack on the Iranian nuclear facilities happened, which then Trump joined in on. And I was with this man. And I'll tell you this story just as an example of the kind of strength that even makes these kind of conversations possible, because without this strength, all of this would be a moot point. So I was with this soldier. And when you think of soldiers, when I think of soldiers, generally, I think of young men in their 20s. A lot of the Ukrainian soldiers are that young men, but they're also old People, they're also women. Everybody is participating in some way. And this man I met, he was probably 40, in his early 40s, I can tell you. He looked a lot older than that because he'd been through hell and back. And he went off to fight, and right in the early days of the war, as soon as the Russians invaded and his wife was pregnant at the time, he's injured, an artillery shell lands right next to him and blinds him. So he comes home, the baby girl is born, and he's never seen the girl. And I was with him as he's playing with this little girl. She was two, walking, running around the playground. He was upbeat. He said, yes, this happened to me, but I would do it again. I would do this sacrifice again, because the cost of losing this war is that high. How do you beat people like that? How do you fight against people like that who are so determined, who lost everything immediately, still alive, but he's never seen his daughter. He only knows how she is to touch. I found myself getting very emotional talking to this guy because he's now volunteering to help other soldiers who've been injured, had traumatic injuries, to find their place in the world. And I kept thinking, this is a tough guy. This is a tough family. How do you. Whether Trump is with him or whether Trump is not with him, how do you fight against these people?
- [12:30]
Yalda Hakim
And that's the point, Richard, where it appears like Donald Trump, the Americans have misunderstood, not just the Ukrainians and their resilience, because you'll remember I met with President Zelensky after he had that blow up at the Oval Office. 24 hours later, he was in London, and I was sitting across from him asking him questions about the meeting. And in his eyes, I saw the kind of strength and the sort of tough attitude that you talk about. And it is, frankly, the same sort of. I don't know how to best describe this, but, you know, people have talked about the Russians being tough negotiators. We mustn't forget that the Ukrainians are cousins of the Russians. They have the same mindset. They are not going to give up their land easily. And it appears to me that Donald Trump and the Americans have not just misunderstood the Russians, they've misunderstood the Ukrainians and exactly what is going on here. So Vladimir Putin, this isn't about a US President, because he knows the way that these countries operate and the way democracies operate. In three years time, Donald Trump will be gone, just as Bill Clinton was gone, George W. Bush was gone, Obama was gone. Trump Won Biden, Trump too. He knows he's dealt with all of these American leaders, but the one constant has been him. And he has always used an external threat to send a message to the Russian people about what makes them exceptional, what makes the Russian empire exceptional, why he needs to go back to history and why he feels he needs Ukrainian territory and he needs to protect Russian speakers, not just in Ukraine, but beyond. And this is a point that Donald Trump, in the way that he has approached Vladimir Putin, has misunderstood. And he's misunderstood the same thing about the Ukrainians, that they are not going to give up this fight easily. And it just goes to show it isn't just about the money, it isn't just about the weapons, it's about the will to fight.
- [14:35]
Richard Engel
Do you think this is transformative or are you skeptical, like many Ukrainians that this is just the mood of the week? Or do you think he's had a real heartfelt shift on both NATO and Ukraine? And on NATO because NATO is finally spending 5% which is double what they ever what he was ever hoping for and because the Ukrainians, Volinsky basically humbled himself before Trump and said I'll do whatever you want, just keep the money, just keep the rampants going. And Trump seems satisfied with that. Do you think it's a real change?
- [15:09]
Yalda Hakim
Well, I do, I do in the sense that if Donald Trump provides the Ukrainians with the intelligence, the weapons and the money that they need, it will be a game changer for them. You remember the drones drone attack that Ukraine launched deep inside Russia, as far away as Siberia, that was based on the assistance of Western intelligence agencies. Whether or not they ever admit it, that was the support. And I interviewed the Russian ambassador to the UK who squarely pointed the finger of blame on the UK for that operation because he said it's not just about whether who flew the drones and who operated the drones, it's about the intelligence that was given. Now if they continue to give them intelligence based on the operations that Russia is planning on launching, it could be a game changer. What I think we need to watch for is one of the things that Donald Trump said in that interview he did with the BBC was I trust almost no one, including Vladimir Putin. And the fact that Donald Trump is unpredictable and there is a lot of uncertainty around him so he could flip again. And the Russians are sort of grimacing about that and the idea of sanctions on Russia and a 50 day deadline, they're shrugging it off because they think that they will see this president through as well. And perhaps Donald Trump will get tired of having to take on, and the best thing he can do is to provide those three things to the Ukrainians.
- [16:38]
Richard Engel
It seems that the Iran military activity was a turning point for President Trump. He engaged in a Middle Eastern war, a war of choice that could have become a slippery slope. He intervened in a relatively big way. He attacked a country that the US Wasn't involved in any kind of direct military conflict with at the time. Then he went to NATO and he embraced NATO. Now he's sending more weapons to Ukraine. He seems to have been become much more comfortable with foreign military interventions than he has in the past. And that's freaking out his MAGA movement, the Make America Great Again movement, thinks it's terrible, thought that the Iran attack was terrible, thinks that the support for Ukraine is terrible. And they also feel betrayed.
- [17:29]
Yalda Hakim
Right now after the break, we're going to talk about a data breach which has put the UK Government in hot water, but also has revealed certain things. It's quite an extraordinary story about Afghan resettlement. So we're going to bring you that after the break.
- [17:48]
Richard Engel
So, Yalda, welcome back. Will you please explain this story to me? So we've talked a lot on this podcast about the war in Afghanistan. Obviously, it's near and dear to your heart as an Afghan woman whose family left that country before the Taliban during the civil war. And obviously, we've both gone back many times. So during the war against the Taliban, when the U.S. and the U.K. and other NATO countries were there supporting the Afghan army and the Afghan government, there were many Afghans who worked for the US Worked for the British military as translators, as contractors, as helpers in many, many different capacities over decades. And then when the system collapsed, when US Troops pulled out, the Taliban took over. A lot of those translators found themselves stranded, and a lot of them felt and were betrayed. And there's been grassroots efforts in the United States to bring out translators. It has not been easy because it has gone against Trump's immigration policies. The UK Was also sort of dancing around this issue, trying to do right by the Afghans who work for the British government and not open the door to mass immigration. And then there was this data breach. What happened?
- [19:09]
Yalda Hakim
Yeah. So as you know, and you were there at the time, over 120,000 people over the course of the last few years, since the fall of the Afghan government and the return of the Taliban, over 120,000 Afghans were more or less airlifted out of the country. About 70,000 of them went to the United States and as you say, Western allies all scrambled to try and support those who helped their troops. But a story that's. That's come out, astonishing story. The UK Ministry of Justice had a list that they had put together of roughly 24,000 Afghans that they needed to evacuate from the country because they had supported their forces. Not just the 24,000, it was 100,000, because the names of their families were also on that list. They were now going to be at risk of death, arrest, torture, you know, being detained by the Taliban if they stayed in the country. So what this story is is that the UK's Ministry of Justice has now relocated up to 7,000 Afghans from Afghanistan to Britain in secret. Now, the reason it was done in secret is because this list that they had, there was some kind of data breach. And via an email, and the details are a bit sketchy, the names of the people on that list was leaked. So basically this leak happens. They try and suppress that. The leak has happened through a thing called a super injunction. And this is a weird law here in the UK that basically stops the publication of information and also stops the press from reporting that this injunction is in place. Right? So the press couldn't report that this leak had happened. These names were out there. And now the Ministry of justice was relocating 7,000 Afghans to the country. So not only is this, you know, hugely embarrassing for the government, but the fact that it costs so much money to move these people over, why was there a breach? Who breached it? How did this email get out? Why wasn't it allowed to be made public? Why was all this done in secret? And now the program has basically folded.
- [21:25]
Richard Engel
So 7,000 got out. And what about the other, the rest of the group?
- [21:29]
Yalda Hakim
It's been declared that their life is no longer at risk in the way that they thought it would be.
- [21:34]
Richard Engel
So they brought out 7,000, but there's 93,000 potentially still left, still left behind.
- [21:40]
Yalda Hakim
And this program has now closed because it's being deemed that, you know, they're not actually at risk in the way that they initially thought that they would be. So they were left behind. But, I mean, this is. Goes back to the heart of a number of issues. You know, this idea that if you supported, you know, Britain or the United States, you weren't going to be left behind when, in fact, you were, you know, how did this information get leaked to begin with? Via an email. It's all a bit hazy.
- [22:07]
Richard Engel
The Taliban has been going after some of these people, but on a. On a. Not on a mass Scale. They haven't been taking them all out one at a time and shooting them. But if you worked for the former government, the Taliban, no. And they tolerate you or they don't tolerate you, but you're a marked person. You don't have a normal life. Even if they're not taking you out of your apartment and shooting you in the street, you can't really advance in society. You're not really gonna get a job. Any interaction you're gonna have with the new Taliban government, you're gonna be wearing a giant scarlet letter on your chest.
- [22:45]
Yalda Hakim
And Richard, there are people who are still living in hiding who worked for the former government, whether that was they served in army or they assisted British or American or other Western forces who are living in hiding and in fear that the Taliban could come and kill them, detain them, torture them. There's all sorts of reports about the fact that the, you know, neighbors reporting to the Taliban that so and so was in the military. I mean, it is a whole environment of fear. And I have spoken to Afghans who continue to live in hiding.
- [23:20]
Richard Engel
This leak, did it do a good thing or did it do a bad thing? I'm still trying to understand. So the 7,000 came at an exorbitant cost, but did the leak stop the program or did the leak cause the 7,000 to be rescued, if you will?
- [23:37]
Yalda Hakim
A bit of both. So the leak caused them to fast track and try and relocate these people, but done in secret because they realized the leak had happened and the leak shouldn't come out. And so they did this in secret. And then when they realized the leak was going to be exposed, they shut down the program and said, these people no longer face any threats.
- [23:56]
Donald Trump
Huh.
- [23:57]
Richard Engel
So the leak forced them to act quickly for a limited number and then shut it down.
- [24:01]
Yalda Hakim
Correct.
- [24:06]
Richard Engel
Let's do some predictions. People always, always like them. Why don't you take, take it away?
- [24:10]
Yalda Hakim
Well, you know, we've been hearing about the, the ceasefire in, in Gaza over the course of the, the last few weeks, and it does feel like things might up quite quickly. I've been speaking to Israeli officials who say this war no longer serves Benjamin Netanyahu. The Knesset is going to break for recess up until about October in the next few weeks. And so when they come back, they may announce some kind of election. So for Benjamin Netanyahu, it's better to go to the poll sooner rather than later, rather than leave it to October 2026. So I'm watching the situation there, and Richard, I'm really watching Syria closely Because it does feel like Syria is currently facing a lot of pressure. It doesn't feel like Ahmed Al Sharar, the de facto president of Syria, has much of a hold over the country other than his base in Damascus. And so the situation in Syria could spiral out of control quite quickly.
- [25:10]
Richard Engel
One of the other things we've talked about a lot on this podcast is the US and are Americans reacting to the executive takeover, which has been happening through executive orders and it's happening through the courts? When are Americans going to say enough is enough? Will they? But where I am here, I would still say it's early days. I'm not seeing it. I'm not feeling it. It feels like this country is still in a state of suspended disbelief. People don't want to talk about politics. They want to keep their head down. They want to talk about the summer, they want to talk about the families. And they're trying to preten. A lot of this stuff isn't happening. Is that a good strategy or is it a bad one? They're hoping that maybe this sort of Trump implodes or that he's gonna get better or whatever reason people are finding to not act and get very upset about it. I would say they're taking.
- [26:03]
Yalda Hakim
I was gonna mention the midterms, but that's not till November. And Richard, I'm seeing you in the next couple of days in the US Very much looking forward to that.
- [26:11]
Richard Engel
What a treat. I can't wait to see you in person. We talk all the time, but we're never physically in the same space again too often.
- [26:17]
Yalda Hakim
Yes, exactly, exactly. So very much look forward to it. We'll have to see what happens in the next few months on Ukraine and with the Russians, whether Donald Trump, you know, flips and flops again or whether he's going to now properly support Ukraine and give them the support they they need.
- [26:35]
Richard Engel
To be continued. Yalda, always great to see you and thank you, everyone for listening and we can't wait to hear from you. Until next time, Yalda.
- [26:43]
Yalda Hakim
Good to speak to you, Richard, and thanks so much for listening.