← The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim
Your countries are going to hell”: Trump versus the world at the UN
00:32:32
What was Donald Trump’s message to the world in his UN speech? Will his position on Gaza ever shift? Will the UK’s recognition of a state of Palestine actually do anything for the Palestinians in Gaza? Yalda is recording from New York where the...
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- [00:06]
A
Hello, it's me, Yalda, and I'm currently in New York.
- [00:10]
B
And me, Richard, I'm in Lisbon, enjoying my last few days at home until I'm back on the road again. And to all of you out there, welcome to the world Podcast. Got.
- [00:25]
C
The United Kingdom formally recognizes the state of Palestine.
- [00:34]
B
Permanent ceasefire now. All the hostages released now. Full humanitarian access now.
- [00:48]
C
What is the purpose of the United Nations? The UN has such tremendous potential, for the most part, at least for now, all they seem to do is write a really strongly worded letter and then never follow that letter up. It's empty words. And empty words don't solve war.
- [01:23]
A
Richard. So we were speaking last week. It was your birthday, your home with the family. How's it going?
- [01:29]
B
It's going very well. I actually did a very traditional kind of birthday. My mother came, she had her 80th birthday at the same time. My brother was here with his wife. It wasn't his birthday, but we all kind of celebrated. It was Mary, my wife's also birthday. So we had lots of cake and lots of family time.
- [01:48]
A
That's really nice to hear. I'm glad you had some time with the family and you were able to rest because, of course, as we know, the world is in a state of turmoil. And as always, we're going to discuss that on the podcast today.
- [02:00]
B
So, Yalda, last week you said you were going to be in New York, and that's where you are right now, covering the unga, the UN General assembly meeting, and quite a few headlines this year. There was President Trump, who basically just said that the UN is a waste of time and that the organization should more or less be disbanded. And the big headline is that the uk, France, Canada, Portugal, Australia, other nations have officially recognized the state of Palestine. You're there. You were at the meeting. How did it feel?
- [02:30]
A
Yeah, it's been quite an epic sort of start to the General Assembly. So for those who don't know, you know, it's the 80th meeting of the General assembly where 193 nations come together, member states, and they discuss and debate the big issues, the big conflicts, the big crises, and whether that is, you know, a pandemic or climate change or forever wars. And obviously this time the big topics have been Gaza and Ukraine, you know, these events. This General assembly always has these headline acts, always has one thing that dominates, and it feels very much like the issue of Palestinian statehood has dominated. And the other thing that I really want to talk about on this episode of the pod, Richard, is the, you know, coming out onto the world stage of Ahmad al Sharad, the Syrian president. We'll be talking about that in a moment. But President Trump has been speaking, I mean, it's been quite something to watch him speak again at the General Assembly.
- [03:42]
B
Yeah. He was tearing into the UN and saying that not only was the building ugly, that he could have done it better, that it was over budget, but that it's not just a waste of time. And we're going to get into exactly what he said and what it means. And I have a story as well. We've talked about this young family, this young girl. She's not that young, she's 16 now. But I've been following her and her family for the last four years and they're in Gaza and we've talked about them on the podcast. I want to give people an update because we often talk about Gaza in these very general terms and it's devastated or it's famine or it's not famine. It's all fake news. But I think it helps a lot if you understand what people are going through and what it's like on a day to day basis basis. And we just got an update, so I want to tell you all about that.
- [04:32]
A
We do also have some listener questions, one about what President Trump's next moves are likely to be. So we can break that down. And then one person asking about the earthquake in Afghanistan, wanting an update on what the situation is like there now. And of course, as always, send us your thoughts, your questions, we love getting them. We talk about them here on the podcast. Usual Place the world@sky.uk and follow us wherever you get your podcasts and follow.
- [05:03]
B
Us if you can on Spotify, Apple and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We really want to grow our audience there. So you can watch and listen to us at the same time and you can send us an email the worldky.uk let's get going.
- [05:28]
A
So, Richard, we're going to get into the nuts and bolts of what it actually means that the uk, Canada, Australia, France, a number of other countries say that they have recognized a state of Palestine. But let's also talk about the situation on the ground because you say that you've been talking to some of these kids in Gaza, kids that you've been following for, for a number of years. You've spent a lot of time in the past in Gaza when you were based there as a correspondent in the. Just talk us through that.
- [06:01]
B
Yeah, so I used to cover Gaza a lot and I still cover it a lot But I used to cover it from the inside a lot. Not just covering the wars when it would happen. That was my beat years and years ago. But this particular family that I met four years ago, there was a short conflict in 2021. The Israelis closed off the Gaza Strip. But then when the war was over, they allowed journalists in. So I went in and I met this young woman. Her name is Nadine. She was 12 at the time, and now she's 16. She speaks English. She had learned English by watching YouTube videos. And I met her again in the spring of 2021, and she was talking about the war and how she'd survived this now relatively brief and rel. Much more minor conflict then this war began. And since we had met Nadine previously, we started asking, how are you? What are you up to? What's going on with your family? How have things been progressing? And these last two years for her have been like they've been for so many Gazans, just a living nightmare.
- [07:16]
D
This is our house right now. This is our house. And I'm shocked because I lost my words. What happened was that one second I was in the house, me and my brother were on the lot. Second minute we are in the streets, we don't have anywhere to go. We're lost. We're scared. I don't understand why. Why is this word, like, See this? This is what they told us to do after bombing our house, to go to the South. After what? What do you. I don't even have a choice at this point because where am I gonna go? If you destroyed my house, destroyed everything that I had in it, and now you're telling me to go to the south, like I'm just. Just some toy you can boss around. What is this? This is. This. This breaks all of the laws of the justice. I don't understand anymore how people can let this happen. I only was able to bring this bag that barely has any clothes in it and the laptops that I use to study and get my education, and all of my toys, and even my favorite plushie, which is called Panda, all of it is gone. You see, this is a hospital. Used to be full of life. Used to be the purpose of it was to help patients survive. Now people live in it, even though it's completely destruction and people now will have to evacuate from it. Our only hope now is to go back to Anusayirat and go back to the horrible life we had there before and try our best to live no matter what. Because this is the life of Palestinians, no matter how many times they let us leave our homes or destroy our homes, we're still going to resilient and stay on our lands because we are Palestinians and this is our land and it's in our names.
- [09:23]
A
Richard the one thing I can never really ever come to terms with or, you know, process is this constant sound, the buzzing sound of drones that has become almost the soundtrack of Gaz. You know, it sort of sums up every time I hear that buzzing sound, the sound of the surveillance over the Gazan people, over children like the ones that we've just seen in your clip. This is their reality. And what I find extraordinary, really, if I link it back to what is happening here in New York and this idea of Palestinian statehood is the reality on the ground couldn't be further away and wider from the vision of a state that we keep hearing global leaders talk about. You know, Turkish President Erdogan just spoke and he talked about this being the lowest point of humanity, what we've seen in Gaza. He used his 15 minutes at the UN General assembly to talk about the situation in Gaza. But before him, Donald Trump spoke. And Donald Trump made it very clear that there would be no. He said, look, the war needs to come to an end. We need those hostages back. But he didn't comment on the suffering of the Palestinian people. And I think that is the point here. No matter how many European countries acknowledge and talk about Palestinian statehood and President Macron thumping his chest in the chamber, talking about recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state under international law, you realize the breach of international law in this way makes it feel like not the paper that it's written, written on. When Israel's staunchest allies, those who have stood by Israel not just in the last two years, but for decades, are now standing at the chamber and saying, enough is enough. And yet no one is listening. And frankly, it makes us realize whatever anyone thinks about Donald Trump, whatever anyone is saying about the United States withdrawing from being the most powerful, you know, the superpower of the world, without US acknowledgement and support, these sorts of conflicts cannot be resolved. Without US Pressure on Israel, this situation is unlikely to come to an end.
- [11:44]
B
Yeah, those drones. And you hear them, and I hear them, too. And when they're flying overhead, it makes you uncomfortable, makes you nervous, because they're not just looking at you. They can drop a bomb on you. And the Gazans call them Zenanat mosquitoes because they have that buzzing in the background. In the same way, if you've ever been trapped in a room with a mosquito and you can't not hear it. Now imagine that mosquito is watching you and can bomb you out of existence 24, 7. And it's just there in your ear, in the background, just a tremendous amount of stress.
- [12:17]
A
Just observing those children. You realize they've been stateless and now they're completely homeless. But let's just help our listeners understand the fact that Palestinians do not have self determination. What does this idea of acknowledging Palestinian statehood actually mean? You know, when we talk about Palestine, we often refer to it certainly in the media, as those territories, whether it's the west bank or Gaza, as, you know, occupied Palestinian territory. That's kind of how we've officially always acknowledged it, rather than, you know, the state of Palestine. I'm not sure what that means for language, but you know, when we talk about Palestine, people don't have Palestinian passports because, you know, it is an entity that isn't necessarily. Even though 147plus countries already acknowledge it as a state and we're now seeing Western allies coming in and one after the other acknowledging it. But it does give the idea of some kind of international legitimacy and sovereignty to the Palestinian people under international law. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they have any kind of self determination. You know, sure, they have an Olympic team. You know, they don't necessarily have a army. You know, they have an authority. And it's been in place, the Palestinian authority, since the 1990s, but they don't really have any control over their affairs. You know, they have a police force, but that police force is overruled by the Israeli military whenever they want and.
- [13:58]
B
Is mostly used to arrest Palestinians and give out, you know, parking tickets and.
- [14:01]
A
Things like that doesn't do very well, you know, so. And they don't. The problem with all of this is that there's also no agreed borders and no idea of what the capital will be. In previous agreements with Israeli leaders and you know, the Palestinian leadership, the idea has roughly been that East Jerusalem would be their capital. You know, Jerusalem would be shared between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But none of these things have been carved out. So I think it's essentially a diplomatic and political acknowledgment. It is a symbol, it's political theater. But it's also about symbolism. And we know that in the Middle east, in that region, symbolism matters. And so therefore the idea that a Palestinian flag would be hoisted over a building in London, which would be called the embassy, these symbolic gestures help the Palestinians feel empowered. The big question that so many people continue to ask me is does it mean the bombs stop dropping? Does it mean the Israel's assault on the people of Gaza stops? Does it mean, you know, just the opposite.
- [15:15]
B
It looks like the Israelis are going to take more land in the west bank, talking about seizing more land for settlements, more land for settlement roads, more land for checkpoints, taking more control, potentially annexing all of the West Bank. That's how Israel said its responsibility. And the bombs haven't slowed down in Gaza City. Nadine, the girl we just heard from a few minutes is, you know, what does she have a laptop and a couple of clothes on her back and a few things and that's it. And she's on the move and this war's not over.
- [15:45]
A
That is the reality of so many of these Palestinians. So when you see these European leaders say, you know, that we are going to support a Palestinian state, essentially what does it mean on the ground? What does it actually translate into?
- [16:00]
B
But in terms of the recognizing of the state of Palestine now at this big event, there is this huge disconnect. You're recognizing the state of Palestine, but Palestine is a wasteland and isn't getting any better. And the key countries that recognized it, the UK and France, they recognized it, but I would say a century too late, 100 years too late because it was the UK and France that carved up the, up the modern Middle east and didn't put a Palestine in the middle of it. So now they're acknowledging the state of Palestine a century too late, after a century of conflict and when there really isn't very much left of Palestine to recognize. Gaza is in ruins. It's getting worse as the Israeli military is pushing deeper into Gaza City. And the west bank is so divided with checkpoints and roads leading to checkpoints that there's barely anything that could become a state there either. But in practical terms, I don't want to say it's insult after injury, but it's hope amid hopelessness. And then seems no indication of any follow up action. I don't know, it doesn't seem like there's going to be any follow up action. We will see. Doesn't mean anything for the people there. It doesn't mean anything for the young boy and girl we were about talking, talking about earlier, Nadine and her brother Jude.
- [17:23]
A
Yeah, well, let's go to an ad break, Richard, because after the break we have a great question about what Donald Trump is likely to do next when it comes to the region. And I also want to tell you about this extraordinary meeting of the Syrian president, Ahmed Al Sharar and General Petraeus, the man who imprisoned him. I have to tell you all about that, which took place here in New York.
- [17:50]
B
Oh, I want to hear about that.
- [18:10]
A
So welcome back. We've got some questions from our listeners, and I've got got one here from Lucia in London via email. And Lucia says, do you think Trump favors maintaining a good relationship with the Gulf states over Israel? Is there a possibility he would sideline Netanyahu if the Gulf leaders asked him to apply pressure? Do you want to give us your thoughts there, Richard, on that?
- [18:35]
B
I think he thinks he can have it all. You know, he thinks that he can have great relations with the Gulf leaders. He thinks he can have great relations with Israel, that everyone will just sort of move on ahead. And he can make it all work because he's a genius. But clearly there are contradictions right now. When the Israelis attacked Qatar, Arab allies freaked out. They were angry, they were scared. And I've been speaking to them. I'm sure you've been speaking to them. They're talking about how they felt exposed. Do they need to look elsewhere for security? You know, if the US can't protect an ally from another ally, then what good is it in terms of offering protection? So he may think that he can have it all, have the cake, eat it, too, have relations with, with, with the Gulf states, have, you know, trillions of dollars over, over years pouring in from investments and joint technology projects and things like that. But the states in the Gulf have made it quite clear they don't agree with Netanyahu's plans to potentially displace all of the Palestinians from Gaza, potentially displace all of the Palestinians or most of the Palestinians from the west bank by annexing that territory. So eventually, I think, to answer your question, Lucia, this is Lucia, right? To answer your question, Lucia, I think this is going to eventually come in or run into a brick wall because the two positions do seem so diametrically imposed. And at this stage, President Trump wants both. But as it gets more violent and it becomes more apparent that Israel and the Gulf states have totally different visions, I think eventually he's going to have to. Well, he may have to make a choice.
- [20:28]
A
Yeah. He talked about at the UN General assembly about the historic deals he struck in the Gulf states. He went for his first state visits, and you'll remember he went to Saudi Arabia. Mohammed bin Salman, he describes as a friend, the crown prince. He also went to Qatar, and he was also in the United Arab Emirates. And so he talked about the historic deals that he struck up there, whether it was AI or cyber or weapons deals. But actually when Israel launched that airstrike on Qatar, it sort of created friction and concern. And Donald Trump has reassured the Gulf leaders that Israel won't do it again. Israel says we'll do it for as long as we need to. You know, wherever our enemies are, we will strike them. So I think that you're right. And Donald Trump for the longest time has wanted some kind of normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel. That is the big prize and that, you know, the Saudis have said we're not going to normalize with Israel until the idea of a two state solution is brought to the table and that there is a ceasefire and there is a peace agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis.
- [21:48]
B
I want to talk about Shara and I want to talk about this meeting that's quite unusual that you have now the president of Syria who was a former Al Qaeda militant, meeting the American general, now retired General Petraeus, who arrested him, kept him in jail. He was in jail for years in Iraq under a false name. And he was pretending to be an Iraqi. Yeah, something like five or six years. He was pretending to be an Iraqi with a passable Iraqi accent. Yalda, you have to tell me about this extraordinary meeting. How'd the meeting go?
- [22:26]
A
Mind blowing. I mean, just think about this, okay? That Ahmed Al Shirra, we've spoken about him numerous times, leader of Al Qaeda and then he, he created an offshoot of isis, Al Nusra Front. And he drove this insurgency against American forces in Iraq. And as a result of the damage that they were doing, of course U.S. troops were stationed there. General Petraeus, the four star general that was presiding over Iraqi forces in Iraq, American forces in Iraq launched what he called the surge where they opt the US soldiers that were there that were fighting to overtake and crush the insurgents. And it is unthinkable if you'd said that this in a Netflix script, that, you know, the former general would sit across from one of the leaders of these insurgency groups and they would talk in the way that they did. And General Petraeus, four star US General would describe him as very impressive, as gracious. I've got, I've got an email here from General Petraeus where I said, you know, General, I'm just wondering, was this the first time you'd met him? And I'm curious to know what he was like around you backstage. He said it was, it was the first time they'd met and he was very impressive, calm, poised, even gracious on Stage General Petraeus described him as, he said, you know, how are you? And to all the people who are your fans, including me, I mean, I just found the encounter, former CIA director, four star general sitting across from this insurgent.
- [24:08]
B
Sometimes there can be admiration among enemies. There can be admiration among enemies.
- [24:12]
A
It's incredible. I mean, I just, it blew my mind. And you and I have covered that conflict in Iraq, you know, for the longest time. These were enemies of America, the enemies of the so called free world. And someone stood up on stage before Shera came on and said to Sherrar, I'd like to call up on stage, you know, the president of Syria, Ahmed Al Shira, welcome to the free world. And my mind was completely blown away. This is an insurgent, you know, a former jihadi who overthrew Bashar Al Assad. You know, after this brutal rule for decades, where he and his father terrorized.
- [24:53]
B
Al Qaeda though, and he had already reconciled with the Christians. He's, he's had quite an evolution over the years too.
- [25:00]
A
But, but the idea that he would be sitting across the, the man who threw him in, into prison and, and the other thing that General Petraeus said is he said to him, you know, we were on opposite sides and asked him about that time. It was just mind blowing.
- [25:16]
B
It is, and it shows that history does change. I've spent a lot of time with troops over the years and I remember being with US troops and if there was a particularly tough insurgent cell and they kept hammering them at a particular time and place and they would adopt, the Americans respected that. Them, they thought they were good. And I remember talking to American soldiers all the time who said, listen, we're occupying their country. If it was flipped and there are Iraqi troops occupying the US who do you think would have been putting the roadside bombs in the road? It would have been the American troops. The same type of people that join the military are often the same kind of people that end up joining these insurgent groups or militant groups. The same kind of, I don't call them men of action or women of action, but people who decide, I'm going to do something about this, I'm going to either sign up for the military, I'm going to sign up for a cause to defend my country. Whether you call it an insurgency, a terrorist group, whatever. I think a lot of it depends on how you choose to fight that fight. Before we go, we have another question. Do you think we have time for it? I think let's do it. This question is from Sukhdeep via email Eddie at this one is really directed at you because if you remember a few weeks ago there was that horrific earthquake in Afghanistan and you brought up this very important point that I think a lot I hadn't thought about, I'm sure a lot of people hadn't, that women were suffering in a disproportionate way because while the earthquake was terrible, the Taliban was sending some social services. But because it's the Taliban, they weren't sending social services for women. And because they don't have female paramedics, they don't have female doctors, they don't allow these people to become educated and trained. So women were effectively just being left under the debris. So with that setup, here's the question. It would be really interesting to hear the latest news in regards to the catastrophic earthquake in Afghanistan. I remember Yalda touched on this issue briefly and I wanted to know if there have been any improvements in regards to the women being saved under the damaged infrastructure.
- [27:20]
A
Yeah, Richard, I mean unfortunately, you know, the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan, whether it's man made or a natural disaster, continues to impact the women and children of Afghanistan in, in the biggest way. And we've spoken about that and unfortunately nothing really ever changes. You know, there was a moment during the earthquake where the Taliban deployed a team of female health workers and doctors to the earthquake zone to help the women and, and the girls because of the international outcry and criticism, because they weren't allowing female aid workers to get in there and support the women and they haven't in, in previous natural disasters. But that doesn't change the reality on a day to day basis for women, children, the people of Afghanistan. The latest edict that came out of the Taliban in the last week or so, so just a couple of weeks after that horrendous earthquake was the banning of the Internet. And you know, people are sort of debating, you know, the banning of the Internet.
- [28:23]
B
So you, that was the only way Afghan women and girls were going, were getting any education. You know, you can't go to school so they're going to do online learning. Now that, that too, it's not even.
- [28:33]
A
Just about the online learning. I think they think that, you know, that there are things on the Internet that young boys and men should not be exposed to as well. And you know, I, I read somewhere where someone said so the prophet Muhammad didn't have access to the Internet, so these people are living in the dark ages, are now saying, well neither should the rest of, you know, his followers. And, and essentially that is what we're looking at here, you know, they are men who are terrorists who launched an insurgency and are now the ruling regime in Afghanistan and they are still terrorizing the Afghan people. That is essentially the crux of it. Just because they are seeking legitimacy and they are trying to normalize themselves in the eyes of the world. And Donald Trump has spoken about re establishing the Bagram Air Base. He spoke about it last week. And taking that back because he feels it's crucial. And its proximity to China does not mean this is a legitimate group, does not mean that they understand what governance means. That does not mean they care about the well being of the 40 million-plus people that they govern over.
- [29:47]
B
And with that, the, the state of the world sounds like it's going really well. So have we come to the place where we agree with Donald Trump that the UN is, is a waste of time and that every state, state sort of does what it wants? Or is it because the world powers, not primarily the US don't give it a chance? Whose fault is it? Is the un Was it built wrong? Can we not get along collectively? Was it always a doomed idea, which is what President Trump says? Or did we not try hard enough?
- [30:18]
A
I think what's extraordinary is the United States was one of the founding, so called fathers of the United Nations. The importance of having this body there that is open for everyone and yet the United States has not issued visas to the Palestinian Authority. So Mahmoud Abbas had to do it via video link. They've told the Iranians that they cannot leave the parameters of their hotel. They can't just float around New York. And you also realize actually being here that every world leader who is here is one of many. Me, the only important leader here is the President of the United States. They get the motorcade, they get the extreme security around them. Everyone else is just one of many other world leaders who are here trying to get their issues resolved and trying to get it at the top of the US President's itinerary.
- [31:14]
B
The UN was put in New York on purpose. It would be in the United States because after World War II, the US was perhaps the last global superpower standing. But it would be an international body embedded within the United States. But if you have a president that says openly America first and America only and everyone's got to look out of their own interest and really isn't interested in diplomacy and the UN is stuck in New York, then does raise the question, what's it doing me? It's been wonderful to see you as always and are you going to get home and get some rest. I mean, you've been bouncing around every day. Every time we speak, you're in another place.
- [31:56]
A
I know. I feel like you at the moment. Usually it's you bouncing from place to place. I've just gone straight from Ukraine here in New York. I'm hoping, you know, we'll be heading back home at the end of the week, and then let's see where the world takes us next. Thanks, Richard.
- [32:11]
B
I gotta get back on the road and work off somebody's cake. I've just been nothing but eating, eating cake for the last week. It sounds good, but back to work. Great to see you. And until next time.
- [32:21]
A
And until next time, Richard. And thank you so much to our listeners for listening.