Zelenskyy tells Yalda: Trump, the time to act is now

Summary

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The World with Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim

Episode: Zelenskyy tells Yalda: Trump, the time to act is now

Date: September 17, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Yalda Hakim recounts her in-depth and candid interview with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, held in Kyiv as Russian drone and missile attacks on Ukraine escalate and encroach on NATO territory. Richard Engel and Hakim analyze Zelenskyy's urgent message to Donald Trump and European leaders, delve into the evolving military landscape, and address audience questions about shifting alliances, the future of NATO, and the psychological toll of war on Ukraine's leadership and people.

The tone throughout is urgent, skeptical, at times somber—and, above all, raw and honest. As Ukraine faces intensified Russian aggression and uncertainty about American support, the discussion centers on Zelenskyy's frustration, his plea for action from the U.S., and the anxiety rippling through Europe as NATO’s security is tested.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Escalation of Russia’s War and Its Reach into NATO

Timestamps: 00:38 – 01:04

• Russian drone and missile attacks have reached unprecedented levels—800+ drones in a single night, with some entering Polish airspace.
• Poland warns of being closer to open conflict than at any point since WWII.
• Richard Engel contextualizes:

  "It used to be 400...big number was 220, 230. When it went over 400 it was a story. 800! And what is it next time—I think we're going to hear it's going to be 1200." (06:41)

2. Yalda Hakim’s Interview with President Zelenskyy

Timestamps: 02:47 – 11:41

• Zelenskyy’s mood is notably more frustrated and defiant than in prior interviews.
• He takes Yalda for a rare, symbolic walk outside to government buildings damaged by Russian attacks.
  • Yalda: "He wanted to tell Donald Trump: you have the power to stop Putin, you have the power to sell me more air defense systems, and you can and should act now." (07:25)
• On Russian intent:

  "You know...they don't want to hear. They live in their fish tank." (Zelenskyy, 01:07)

Drone Warfare and Technology

• Both sides have become more sophisticated, but the conflict has turned into what Zelenskyy calls "drone hell."
• Rapid generational improvements in drone tech (new models every 3–6 months, much cheaper than heavy weaponry).

3. Zelenskyy’s Direct Message to Trump and the West

Timestamps: 07:25 – 15:24

• Zelenskyy’s plea is focused on American leadership:

  "You have the power to stop Putin… you can and should act now." (Yalda paraphrasing Zelenskyy, 07:25)

• He is ready to meet both Trump and Putin, but refuses to travel to Moscow under current conditions:

  "No, of course not... Russia attacked us. I can't go to the country... when...they're attacking us." (Zelenskyy, 11:55)

The Alaska Meeting Controversy

Timestamps: 08:37 – 11:06

• Analysts and the hosts agree that the Trump-Putin meeting in Alaska benefited Putin by ending his isolation and providing public legitimacy, but no tangible progress was made for Ukraine.
• Zelenskyy’s frustration is palpable, and he views Trump’s approach as dangerously dismissive.

Quote

• Richard:

  "...it was a very interesting answer. Was that his attitude?...What the f just happened. You met there in Alaska and you gave him...all this recognition, and then he...starts bombing Ukraine more heavily." (10:17)

4. Sidelined by the US, Desperate for Western Unity

Timestamps: 11:06 – 19:32

• Zelenskyy feels abandoned by American leadership, perceiving the U.S. as focused elsewhere (e.g., China), while European sanctions and efforts, though significant, are insufficient.

• Yalda observes:

  "He’s acutely aware that Donald Trump views this as Europe’s problem. Now, for Volodymyr Zelensky, he’s saying...the Americans need to, frankly, do more." (13:28)

• Concern voiced that direct appeals may backfire, with Trump interpreting Zelenskyy’s calls for action as ingratitude.

5. European Security Anxiety and NATO Realignment

Timestamps: 20:56 – 24:22

• Listener question: Can Europe face Russia one-on-one if Trump withdraws support?
• Richard and Yalda underscore that while Europe is facing up to this reality, it cannot "just wake up and build a pan-European army." The logistics, spending, and political will are not yet in place.
  • Richard:

    "The infrastructure doesn’t exist. Europeans...have relied on NATO...Now they're wondering, can Trump and this...organization really be counted on?" (20:56)

• Poland’s Article 4 invocation (not Article 5) signals growing urgency—NATO is being tested, but true collective military response hasn’t been triggered.

6. Russia, China, North Korea: Global Alignment

Timestamps: 22:26 – 24:22

• Yalda notes the global strategic shift: Russia, China, and North Korea overtly showing unity, with their leaders standing together, sending a message about the new world order.
• Ukraine’s future seen as uncertain, caught in the struggle for influence between East and West.

7. Zelenskyy’s Message to the Russian People

Timestamps: 29:27 – 31:00

• When asked directly, Zelenskyy expresses near despair about reaching the Russian public:

  "It's difficult to have messages to people without ears. They don't want to hear. They live in their fish tank.... What is terrible, young people think the same way. This is their young faces, but they are really old people...They are not free...So that's why. What to say to them if they don't want to hear." (Zelenskyy, 29:27)

• Richard responds:

  "He didn’t have that message of hope. He doesn’t believe that it’s just Putin, he says this is Russia...he feels nobody’s listening. Trump’s not listening. The Europeans listen. They talk, but haven’t been able to act yet. And the Russians, he’s like, there’s no hope from them." (31:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Zelenskyy on Russian public mentality:

  "They live in their fish tank. ... Young people think the same way. This is their young faces, but they are really old people." (29:27)

• Richard Engel on escalation:

  "800...next time...1200. And it looks like it's heading in that direction." (06:41)

• Yalda on Zelenskyy's plea:

  "He wanted to tell Donald Trump: you have the power to stop Putin, you have the power to sell me more air defense systems, and you can and should act now." (07:25)

• Analysis on Trump-Putin meeting:

  "He doesn’t say, yes I think Trump shouldn’t have hosted Vladimir Putin in Alaska ... but then he goes on to list all the reasons why Putin got more out of it than Trump." (Richard, 10:17)

• Zelenskyy's exhaustion:

  "I’m ready to meet with President Trump and Putin. But I’m ready to meet without any kind of conditions." (11:41)

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Important Timestamps and Topics

• 00:38 – 01:04: The scale of Russian drone incursions into Poland.
• 02:47 – 07:25: Yalda’s first impressions of Zelenskyy’s mood; walkthrough of damage in Kyiv.
• 07:25 – 11:06: Zelenskyy’s focus on Trump, message to the West, frustration at U.S. inaction.
• 14:55 – 15:24: Zelenskyy’s appeal for air defense, skepticism about European unity.
• 20:56 – 22:26: Listener question: Europe’s ability to defend itself without U.S. support.
• 24:22 – 28:46: Global power alignments; Ukraine’s place in an unstable order.
• 29:27 – 31:00: Zelenskyy’s bleak view of Russian society and prospects for changing minds.

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Takeaways

• Zelenskyy feels increasingly isolated and desperate, seeing minimal prospects for changed U.S. policy under Trump and limited European capability to fill the gap.
• The scale and frequency of Russian drone attacks are escalating, posing an acute risk not just for Ukraine but for NATO stability.
• European strategic autonomy is a long way off; for now, anxiety and stopgap increases in defense spending are the norm.
• Russia’s government—and, in Zelenskyy’s eyes, much of its society—remains deeply hostile to Ukraine’s sovereignty.
• Ukraine’s leadership is shifting tone: once resolutely hopeful, now more somber, indignant, and sometimes resigned.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode offers a candid, revealing look at the psychological and political pressures on Ukraine’s leadership as Western support wavers and the war’s human toll mounts. Zelenskyy’s direct, almost hopeless address to both Russian citizens and Western allies serves as a stark warning and a plea—one Richard Engel and Yalda Hakim passionately dissect and place in the larger context of shifting world alliances.

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Transcript

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Foreign.

[Yalda Hakim]

Hello, it's me, Yalda, and I'm.

[Richard Engel]

In Ukraine and meet Richard Engel in Lisbon. Back at home, just back from Israel, and welcome to the world.

[Yalda Hakim]

Do you think that Vladimir Putin is trying to manipulate and trick Donald Trump?

[Expert/Analyst]

He definitely wants to trick the U.S.

[Richard Engel]

Russia'S war in Ukraine has crept into NATO territory with Poland. Warning it's the closest it's been to open conflict since the end of World War II. The Russians launched again 450 drones from western Russia across Ukraine, and about 19 or 20 of them went into Polish airspace.

[Yalda Hakim]

Do you have a message to the Russian people?

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

You know, it's difficult to have messages to people without ears. You know, they don't want to hear. They live in their fish tank.

[Yalda Hakim]

Richard and I believe Happy birthday is.

[Richard Engel]

Thank you very much.

[Yalda Hakim]

Happy, happy birthday. I'm so pleased you're home for it.

[Richard Engel]

Yes. It almost never happens, but it did. And I'm here. And so I'm celebrating my birthday and have my brother and my mother, who's 80 years old and she just had a birthday too, and so we're all celebrating it together here in, in Lisbon. So it's really nice. Everyone's. So not everybody's arrived yet. My brother's still coming, but it should be some good family time.

[Yalda Hakim]

That's so, so nice because as you say, it's so true. How many birthdays over the years have we spent on the road away from, from family? So it's. I'm really happy for you.

[Richard Engel]

And if I will say, if you have to have one holiday where you're going to miss it, birthday's fine. You know, it's worse to miss Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthday. At the end of the day, it's really just about you. Right. You know, and I can forgive. Forgo that. No big deal. But the ones that mean more to the other people, for us, it's like Christmas, Thanksgiving where Theo loves it. Those are those ones. I don't like to miss birthday. This is great news. I'm here. All the better. Sweets. Nice. We'll have nice family time. But I. Anyway back. Let's talk about our. Let's talk about our show. Yalda, tell us why you're in Ukraine.

[Yalda Hakim]

So, Richard, I've interviewed President Zelensky. I got this late call on Saturday night and jumped on a plane. I got here first thing on Sunday morning, and I've got to tell you, Richard, I've not heard him so frustrated towards the Americans since that infamous White House bust up. And my God, Richard, I was quite surprised by how Frank and bold he was. I haven't heard him this way, you know, in a long, long time. It was clear to me that he wanted Donald Trump to do more. That was the message he was trying to send, that he wanted Donald Trump to get tough and act now.

[Richard Engel]

And we're gonna unpack that whole interview. It's really exciting. The timing couldn't have been better. So congratulations, a good get. And we have some fascinating questions from our listeners. But after our last special episode, we got quite a few exciting ones. And there's one from Vladimir in Bulgaria, another one from Diane in San Diego, and we're gonna answer those later.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, we've got so much to unpack. As always on the podcast, make sure you follow us on Spotify and Apple, subscribe to our YouTube channel. We really want our audiences to grow there. And of course we love getting your questions. As Richard was just saying, you can send us your comments, your questions, usual place. Email [e-mail] I'm back in Kiev. I haven't been back to Ukraine for, for a couple of years now. I, I of course met with President Zelensky earlier in the year following that bust up at the White House. But we came via Moldova. It's roughly about a, an eight hour or nine hour drive. So it's a long drive crossing the border and yeah, people forget there's no flights. Yeah, it's, it's a no fly zone here. And you know, we arrived late in the night. We had the interview the next day, the next afternoon with President Zelensky and he was really keen to sort of take me outside, show me a government building, one of the headquarters that had been damaged following Russian attacks on the city and, and across his country. Hi, good to see you again. How are you?

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Thanks so much.

[Yalda Hakim]

Thank you.

[Richard Engel]

How are you?

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Thank you for coming.

[Yalda Hakim]

Of course. Well, thank you so much at a tense time. Of course, always for your country. And the reason we wanted to meet at this point, of course is because now they're hitting the heart of your city, the headquarters, the government building. Can you talk us through what happened there?

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Yeah, we had a very tough night. Maybe as always, I can say, but those night was difficult because it was, was more than 800 shaheds. Yes, I think 810, something like this. And plus we had I think about 15 missiles. Yes. Especially this time of the night. And some ballistic.

[Yalda Hakim]

What message do you think they're sending when they do that?

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

You know, that they want to continue the war and that's why they postponed you know, this meetings of decisions and about ceasefire and sensitive. It's not about Cesar in any way. Yes. I don't know what, what is in their heads. It's difficult to understand, but we have to recognize that they don't want peace. It's understandable.

[Richard Engel]

Yalda, two things that jumped out at me from that interview. One that he took you to the Council of Ministers, so the Council of Ministry building, the Council of Ministers building, where the ministers meet. Two council. It was hit a few days ago and that's right in the center.

[Expert/Analyst]

Right.

[Richard Engel]

Not very far. Far from the Presidential palace, not far from the main hotels. So you're striking the government center, that's one thing. And the fact that he went out there to show you is unusual. In my last interviews, he hasn't really wanted to go for walks. I've asked him will we do a walk and talk? And he's reluctant to do that. So the fact that he went out there with you, I think shows a level of interest and that he is pretty determined to get his message out. And two 800 shaheeds in a single night. It used to be 400, used to be 300. Big number was 220, 230. When it went over 400, it was a story 800. And what is it? Next time I think we're going to hear it's going to be 1200. And it looks like it's heading in that direction. Just that, I think speaks volumes.

[Yalda Hakim]

What's clear about this war. And he's describing it as becoming more complex, a different sort of generational war, that it's almost drone hell for them and the Russians. He said, we've learned something from the Russians in terms of this technology. They've learnt, learned from us. And as a result we have become much more advanced in terms of the tech that we're using. But after that sort of walk and talk that we did, we went into the palace, we sat down for roughly about an hour. He was dressed in the way that he dresses, you know, in the, the car keys that, that you saw there. He spoke a little bit in English and in Ukrainian mostly. And really his invite to me and to my team meant one thing basically, that he had a clear message and that message was pointed towards Donald Trump mainly and of course also to the Europeans. He wants their position made clear. He wanted to tell Donald Trump, you have the power to stop Putin, you have the power to sell me more air defense systems and you can and should act now. Do you believe that meeting in Alaska was a mistake.

[Expert/Analyst]

I think it gave a lot to Putin, and I believe if it was a trilateral meeting, we would have some result because Putin wanted to meet the President of the United States, Trump, he wanted to escape from the political isolation, and I believe he should have paid more. He should have received a setback in this war and stop. But instead, he received de isolation. He got photos with President Trump. He received a public dialogue. It's very important not to give Putin this space because otherwise he won't feel compelled that he has to stop the war. Because why? I mean, if he's fighting, if he's waging the war and everyone is trying to stop him by arguing, by asking him, but instead, force should be used. He understands force. That's his language. That's the language he understands. He doesn't speak many languages, but that's the language of force he understands. Just like Russia. You know, his mother died.

[Yalda Hakim]

Do you think that Vladimir Putin is trying to manipulate and trick Donald Trump?

[Richard Engel]

He definitely wants to trick the U.S. interesting, interesting. So you asked him, was Alaska a mistake? He doesn't say, yes, I think Trump shouldn't have hosted Vladimir Putin in Alaska. It was a terrible mistake. But then he goes on to list all the reasons why Putin got more out of it than Trump did, that Putin got recognition that he broke his isolation and then has just been pushing ahead on the war with no consequences. So what the f. Right. I think that's the message. It's like what the f just happened. You met there in Alaska and you gave him a. You gave him all this recognition, and then he left and he starts bombing Ukraine more heavily. What's go. What. What gives, guys? That. That's. It was a very interesting answer. Was that his attitude? Am I, Am I create? Am I imagining this? Or was that his attitude?

[Yalda Hakim]

No, as you say, I mean, you've seen him in action. You've sat down with him multiple times. You know, you know, when he is feeling extreme frustration, and that's what came across in this, that he's exhausted, he's exacerbated, and he's frustrate with the lack of action. He's saying, you know, they're all going in circles. Sure, the Europeans are trying to punch above their weight here and trying to put pressure through sanctions and things like that, but the Americans need to, frankly, do more. And he doesn't want the continuation of this war. He says he's willing to do whatever it takes.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

I'm ready. I'm ready to meet with President Trump and Putin. But I'm ready to meet without any kind of conditions.

[Yalda Hakim]

Are you willing to go to Moscow to do that? Because that is something that Vladimir Putin has suggested.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

No, of course not. Of course not. It's not conditions, it's the situation. Russia attacked us. I can't, I can't go to the country when this country, this city, Moscow, they're attacking us.

[Richard Engel]

Interesting as well. I mean, I didn't, I wonder if Putin's invitation for Zelensky to come to Moscow was even really serious. I mean, I think Zelensky would probably be arrested if he got to the airport there. You know, look what's happened to other enemies of Putin when they've showed up back at the airport. Yeah, I don't think we're going to see him in Moscow any, anytime soon. Do you think he's, he's making this message to sort of send a wake up call saying, hey, guys, we need to do something here. They're droning, they're bombing, they're attacking, they're attacking the offices outside my office. What gives, do you think, do you think, is that a, is this a wake up call?

[Yalda Hakim]

Well, you know, he's, yeah, he's tried to wake the west up in the past, hasn't he?

[Richard Engel]

But it's not working. It's not working. What I'm worried is, does he know that Trump might just not be interested in Ukraine? And Trump, whenever he speaks, he seems like, I'm doing you a favor. This is not my problem, this is your problem. And I could really be doing other things. I could be doing trade deals, I could be making billions of dollars. He could be doing whatever he's doing, having stakes at Mar A Lago, and he doesn't feel like he should be bothering with this. So does Zelensky, by doing these wake up calls, by doing these interviews, expressing frustration, does he think it's going to make a difference?

[Yalda Hakim]

I think he's desperate. I think he's acutely aware that Donald Trump views this as Europe's problem. Now, for Volodymy Zelensky, he's saying, yeah, it's terrible. Europeans shouldn't be buying Russian oil and gas, they should be doing more. But frankly, they've put 80 sanction packages in place. And the Americans, Americans haven't really done anything. So we need you to keep sending us the weapons and get tough, get tough on him now because he's terrified of these sanctions. He's terrified of being further isolated. He's terrified that we could put more pressure. But you're not doing all of these things are you. I mean, and that is what clearly came through. What I think is, is worrying that when he has done this in the past, it has backfired. Donald Trump has turned on him. So if Donald Trump starts seeing this kind messaging coming out from Volodymyr Zelenskyy and he starts to get bolder and bolder, you know, is he going to turn on the.

[Richard Engel]

This is where I'm wondering, is Trump. Because they look at y', all, look at Zelensky, how ungrateful he was with Yalda Hakim from Sky. Look at that dastardly interview where he just did, where he said that my interviewer suggested that the, the meeting in Alaska benefited Putin more and that I got a raw deal and that he's trying to trick me. What does he know? We should keep to his own affairs. But I could see this interview being interpreted that way.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah, well, let's just have a listen, Richard, to what Zelensky says he wants. I want to quote Donald Trump who said NATO's commitment to win has been far less than 100% and the purchase of Russian oil by some has been shocking. It greatly weakens your negotiating position and bargaining power over Russia. I'm ready to go. He means imposing sanctions when you are. Just say when. Do you agree with him?

[Expert/Analyst]

I believe that the US Is strong enough to take decisions of their own. I believe Donald Trump can give us air defense systems in quantity and US has enough, I'm sure US can apply enough sanctions in order to hurt the Russian economy. Plus, Donald Trump has enough force to make Putin afraid of him. Europe in this case should simply be in alliance with the US and of course it's a big help for Americans to put pressure on Putin. But we need to understand that we just can't wait for all European countries to stop relations with Russia, whether it's oil or gas. So in this, he is right. Europe should stop purchasing fuel and gas, but we shouldn't wait. I disagree with that. I think the US Is strong enough on its own. And Europe, I mean, it's many, many different countries. It's EU countries, other European nations outside eu and each country has their own, its own bureaucracy, decision making protocols, etc. Whereas US is just one country with one vertical, you know, system. They can make this happen quicker.

[Richard Engel]

Interesting. He really does sound baffled. He's like, this is the way it should be happening. This is the way it should be happening. But it's not happening. So what's wrong here? The US has the capacity to make quick Decisions. It's one country. They're our ally. They should be supporting us. And then he's back and he's just getting droned and droned and droned, and he doesn't get it. He's coming to that situation like, this is totally in Europe's interest. This is totally in America's interest. America should be making these decisions, but they're not. What's wrong here?

[Yalda Hakim]

I think that's, that's quite a good way to put it, you know, and the truth probably is, is that Donald Trump is quite into Vladimir Putin. So when he talks about these sanctions, when he talks about threats, when he talks about imposing these tough measures on the Russians, well, he's saying it, but he isn't doing it. And he probably thought that, know when he famously said, I can end this war in 24 hours, he's come to the conclusion that it's much harder than he thought. He thought, you know, he'll come in, he'll twist Zelensky's arm, he'll tell him to give up some territory and, you know, he'll punish him if he doesn't. And Putin is the thug of the region and it's his sphere of influence and we'll all get on with it. But he didn't quite fully understand that for these countries, it's much bigger than one US President or one US President's term. For Putin, it is about Russian expansionism. For Ukraine, it's about its existence, which will and could go on for, frankly, decades beyond any US President. And I think Donald Trump will continue to make the sort of threats that he's making, say the sorts of things that he thinks, you know, will show that he's supporting Ukraine on some level. And he will say that he's going to get tough on Vladimir Putin. But I think deep down, Putin knows and Zelensky knows that that may never come and may never happen. And it will go back down to the Europeans, you know, upping their defense spending, ensuring that when drones fly into NATO airspace, that they have the measures in place to be able to defend themselves and to, for now, defend Ukraine. Because the thing for the Europeans is they need to keep these drones within the borders of Ukraine and not let it fall into NATO, which then turns into a different kind of conflict.

[Richard Engel]

Let's take a break now. When we come back, let's talk about those drones going into Poland and we'll take some questions.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Foreign.

[Yalda Hakim]

Welcome back. We've been dissecting that interview I did with President Volodymyr Zelensky and we sat down just days after the Russian drones were shot down by Polish and NATO jets in Polish airspace. We've also seen some drones hovering into Romanian airspace. I asked President Zelensky about this and, and he told me that this was Russia basically sending a very clear message to the Europeans. Don't send air defense missiles to Ukraine because frankly you're going to need them yourself. Well, let's take some listener questions Richard, because after our bonus episode we had so many people writing in. We've got this one via email. Vladimir from Bulgaria says why do European and Ukrainian leaders still seem so desperate to keep Trump as an ally? Have they not yet accepted the idea that Europe must be prepared to face Russia one on one without U.S. support?

[Richard Engel]

So I think they're facing that reality. I think that's reality is becoming increasingly clear. But they're not in a position to face it. It's not like you can just wake up and build a pan European army. The infrastructure doesn't exist. Europeans for many years have not been spending much, in some cases barely anything on their militaries or on their self defense. They've relied on NATO for a self defense as a self defense pack. And now they're wondering can Trump and this, this organization really be, be counted on? And, and Vladimir Putin is testing his theory. Is, is NATO really tough? Is can I punk holes in it? Is it is is this guy all bark? No, no bite. And I think the Europeans are starting to get very scared and that's why we're seeing a lot of European countries budgets spending more money. But if anyone goes around Europe these days and looks at the state of local politics, it seems like European governments don't have a lot of money to spend right now. There's protests in France practically every morning on my way over here. The flight was delayed because the air traffic controllers in France were once again on strike. And lots of countries are pretty tight right now. So they're not spending a ton. They've got to rearm, they've got to coordinate, they've got to build logistics. They have to fight with some sort of common policy. It's not easy to replace the country that you've been depending on for your security Since World War II in a couple of months or even a couple of years, it's just not, you can't.

[Yalda Hakim]

Suddenly switch direction when for decades you've been relying on the United States for your security. As you say, after the Second World War, these are the alliances that have shaped the world order as we know it. It was quite extraordinary, that parade, you know, in, in Beijing and China, where there was an attempt at reshaping the world order. And, you know, Vladimir Zielinski spoke to that. He said, listen, look at what we're seeing. We're seeing China, we're seeing Russia, we're seeing Kim Jong Un of North Korea standing there with the Indians, a strategic partner of the United States, all coming together, these major powers trying to reshape the world, all standing together. He talked about the Russians, the North Koreans and the Chinese standing in unity for the war in Ukraine, because, of course, we've seen North Korean troops fighting for the Russians on Ukrainian territory. And he said, is that the world that we want? But frankly, when we see the language of Donald Trump and the sorts of things he's saying, including, this is your problem, Europe, you resolve it yourself. We can't keep spending this because our focus, and we know that, you know, there are those within the administration who are saying Ukraine is futile. That's Europe's problem. Our eyes should be set on China. That is the formidable enemy. That is where we need to focus our great power competition, you know, and, and, and that's where we should be investing on building arms and, and our focus. So that is the reality of, of where Ukraine now sits, you know, and I found it, you know, striking, Richard, when you once said that, frankly, if you're not at the table, you're on the table. And Ukraine President Zelensky constantly feels this way. And that's why he's terrified. That's why he speaks up, because he knows the power of the media, he knows the power of messaging, and he is trying to use whatever tool he can at this point in time to get his message across.

[Richard Engel]

And it doesn't seem to be working. And he's increasingly frustrated. So he goes to the White House, gets smacked around in the Oval Office, then he rolls over backwards. He'll sign a minial deal under, it seems like, any condition. I mean, the terms were quite draconian. You know, give away all of your minerals forever, and I'll have American troops kind of take whatever they want. And Zelenskyy initially was rabidly opposed to this. He said, how could. The language was so loose and had so many dangerous implications for Ukraine's sovereignty. Said, whatever, whatever, whatever, just sign this thing. And then what happens? Putin goes to Alaska, gets red carpet riding the beast, the big limousine. There's supposed to be this trilateral meeting. It doesn't happen. The drone attacks only increase. He just recently did this drone Assault. And our next question via email from Diane in San Diego asks about that, because what happened there was, it was so interesting. These drones went in. NATO had to scramble jets for the first time. And she asked. This is Diane from San Diego. The new drone event in Poland changes everything. When will the Article 4 meeting occur and will the US be there? Yalda, tell us what Article 4 is. How's it going where that meeting is? Do you have any updates based on where you are right now?

[Yalda Hakim]

So, Richard, Article 4 is not as serious as Article 5. So Article 5, we know, is a sort of one for all and all for one. If one is attacked, you know, the rest come together and intervene, stand together, collective defense. Article 4 is the sort of governing body of NATO coming together to discuss what steps and measures need to be taken if they are under threat and under attack. And Poland has asked for Article 4 to be invoked because they're saying, listen, these drones, we had to shoot them out of the sky.

[Richard Engel]

Ring the bell, ring the bell, sound the alarm, get all, everybody together.

[Yalda Hakim]

Something has happened here and we need to take it incredibly seriously. We cannot normalize Russian drones provided to them by the Iranians into NATO. Now, what the Russians are doing is they're testing NATO to see what the response will be. Frankly, so far it's muted from the United States, barring Donald Trump saying that, you know, maybe this was sort of somehow hovered into Polish territory. But this is now a very public debate. And the United States, rather than sort of coming to the defense of the, the polls and saying this is unacceptable and we will not be, you know, allowing for these drones to hover into NATO, they're almost saying, well, it could be an accident or we're not quite sure what's going on here. You know, almost as though Donald Trump doesn't have the, the best and biggest intelligence apparatus at his disposal and at his fingertips. So Donald Trump saying, not sure what's going on here. Now, what Volodymyr Zelensky made quite clear, and what I am hear some quarters in the United States is that this is Russia sending a very clear message to the Europeans, to NATO, do not sell your air defenses to Ukraine because frankly, you're going to need them. And it is putting them at sort of heightened alert. Now, what Volodymy Zelinsky said to me is, listen, our technology, because we are nimble, because we are small, because we're not as bureaucratic as the rest of them, you know, has come a long way. And I've spoken to people within the intelligence community in the United States. And they've said that intercepted, you know, communication in Russia shows that the Russians believe they are in drone hell. So while the Russians are sending these sorts of drones, and we talked about 800 drones, the Russians themselves are seeing a swarm of drones fighting Ukraine's war for them. The other thing that Volodymyr Zelensky said, which was, I thought was quite fascinating, he said, it is really difficult to keep up. You know, every three months we're seeing a new generation of these drones. You know, these things don't cost that much, so you can update them, you can scale them. It is very different to equipment that costs millions and millions of dollars. These are just, you know, 10,000, $20,000 each. And the new generation emerges three to six months after the old one.

[Richard Engel]

So what was your final question to Zielinski, the one you left him with?

[Yalda Hakim]

You know, Richard, the interview ended. His staff were getting quite, you know, anxious. They wanted him to move on. He was quite keen to keep talking. And then he broke out into English and I started to ask him some more questions and right at the end I said to him, what message do you have to the Russian people? You know, thinking that he'd say, speak up. Speak up against this, this authoritarian leader, this tyrant that. That has taken hold of. Of your country.

[Richard Engel]

Take a stand.

[Yalda Hakim]

Have a listen to what he said. Because I thought it was really quite stark and. And fascinating.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

You know, it's difficult to have messages to people without tears. You know, they don't want to hear. They live in their fish tank. It's really. They think that there is their world, by the way, they have the name Russian world is true. And they think that they can count to bring back all the countries who've been in the Soviet Union. And they think that this is Russian justice. Yes. To bring back all of them under. Under their rules and to have this. This joint country, Russian empire. And of course they think that it's right. And what is terrible that young people, young people think the same way. This is their young faces, but they are really old people. They are really old Soviet people. My father is 77. He is much more younger than 18 years. Russian girls and boys, yes, because they are not free. They think that they live in such world that the world is like Russia and this is just like something very strange. So that's why. What to say to them if they don't want to hear.

[Richard Engel]

Very interesting, very interesting. He didn't have that message of hope. He doesn't believe that. It's just Putin, he says this is Russia, that it is not just Putin attacking Ukraine. It's the Russian people or certainly the younger ones who don't know anybody or who live in this mentality space, that the young people are old people. They're the old Soviet thinking that they, you know, the old Soviets who've been reborn into the bodies of the young Russian soldiers and don't talk, don't bother talking to them, because they're on the enemy side. They think the same way. That is the man, the sound of a man who's very depressed and very dejected. He's talks. This is one of the world's most communicative heads of state. Heads of state during wartime. Every day he addresses his people. I've done, by now a dozen interviews with him. You've probably done the same. You did one just now. He communicates, engages with the media, and he feels nobody's listening. Trump's not listening. The Europeans listen. They talk, but haven't been able to act yet. And the Russians, he's like, there's no hope from them. They agree with him. God, not a man who's saying like he used today in his nightly addresses, we're going to win, and victory's coming around the corner. We've got allies who are with us at every turn.

[Yalda Hakim]

Yeah. Hasn't he come a long way in what he's saying and the messaging and. And that kind of resolve he had at the very beginning to this kind of sense of, sure, we're going to keep on fighting, but. But a sense of hopelessness, like, I've got these partners. They keep saying the right things, as you say, but they're not. They're not acting. He then went on to say why the Ukrainian people are different. He said, you know, people ask, why do we want to join the eu? He said, we have a European mindset. We are European. We're not like the Russians. We want to free. He almost talked about feeling sorry for the Russian people because their minds are not free. So a tense time for this country, and we'll have to see how things pan out, how that message that he's trying to now sell is received by Donald Trump, by the Europeans, and they're all going to be. Richard, at the UN General assembly next week. I'll be there, you know, covering the statements made by these world leaders across the board.

[Richard Engel]

So another trip upcoming for you. What, are you gonna leave Kyiv, drop your bags at home, and then head straight to New York?

[Yalda Hakim]

Yes, Yes, I will.

[Richard Engel]

Oh, I feel bad now. I'm at home. I'm leaving you after this and it's my birthday. I'm gonna have cake later home.

[Yalda Hakim]

You're enjoying your birthday.

[Richard Engel]

You know, I'm gonna play with anyway.

[Yalda Hakim]

Well deserved for you.

[Richard Engel]

Thank you. Great to see you today. Another congratulations on the interview with Zelensky. Fascinating stuff and I'm so glad we were able to do this. Cause you know, sometimes when you watch a clip on TV and you hear it, that's interesting and we do that. But I like when we can have this opportunity to really go through something and hopefully the listeners do as well, digest it, understand it, spend some time with it. And I've really enjoyed it and I hope others have as well.

[Yalda Hakim]

Thank you so much, Richard. Really good to see you. And thank you so much to our listeners for listening again this week.

[Richard Engel]

Thanks.

[Yalda Hakim]

Bye.

[Richard Engel]

Sam.