← The Zach Lowe Show
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. The best passers see every angle of the floor to make the perfect assist, and State Farm is no different. They know the game inside and out and look at every angle to help set you up with a plan that fits your life and budget. Get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Playoff season is here. So what better way to get into the spirit of things than with a tournament of your own? Compete to see who can make the best dip. Test your basketball skills with a game of around the World. Even better if Michelob Ultra is on the line, especially since they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open US Residents 21+ begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelob ultra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. I am in a scorching San Antonio, Texas. The NBA Finals are about to start. The Knicks and the Spurs. Mo de kill, my old friend. He also just arrived in San Antonio. We're going to give you hopefully the best, most in depth preview of this series you can get. We're going to look at both sides of the floor, X's and O's. Who's Wembanyama guarding? Who is going to guard Wembanyama? What lineups are going to be key? The Mitchell Robinson factor. How big of a deal is that? Can the Knicks underdogs again in the finals? Can they finally pull this off and break the 53 year no championship streak? We're going to make predictions. I hope. I'm going to force movies to make a prediction and talk everything in the finals. The matchup, the X's and O's, the adjustments, the adjustments, the stakes, the big picture stuff, the fun stuff, all of it. Both these cities are going to be absolutely on fire. What a series we have in store. And then Andrew Schleck from the down to Dunk podcast over at the Athletic. He's their Thunder guy. He's in Oklahoma City. We're going to talk about the fallout of the Thunder losing to the spurs in the conference finals. Losing four. I'm sorry. Losing eight of their 12 meetings to the spurs this season. Is this a seismic change? Do they just have no answer for women? Yama, what the hell happened to Chad Holmgren? What are they going to do in the off season? Is it going to be a quiet one? Is it going to be a loud one? Is it going to be a crazy one? We'll talk all things thunder. The would be dynasty that has already been interrupted. That's all coming up on the Zach Low show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. The NBA finals are here, 28 teams are gone, two are left. And boy oh boy, what a fantastic finals matchup. We have the New York Knicks attempting to end a 53 year title drought. And if they do, it would just about break New York City in half against the San Antonio Spurs. And the most telegenic, most curiosity inducing superstar that the league has had since young LeBron James in Victor Wembanyama already here crying, weeping, hugging for joy upon vanquishing the would be dynastic Oklahoma City Thunder. Mo Takeil. My excitement level as you can see is a 15 out of 10. I am in San Antonio. I, I would like game one to be tomorrow. It's not tomorrow. I am afraid of how insane New York City is going to be when this series comes to New York could not be more hyped about this series between Wemby and the young hungry spurs and a Knicks team that has found magic, real magic in the playoffs. Just 10 out of 10 matchup, 15 out of 10 excitement. I might be drunk right now, you'll never know. It's just going to be awesome. Mo welcome to San Antonio.
- [04:08]
Mo De Kiel
Yeah, I'm in San Antonio too. I'm hyped up, I'm ready to go. I, you could see it in the streets as I was in the lift on my way to the hotel seeing all the. Every street store has signs and everybody's pumped up. My, my Lyft driver had a Spurs jersey on. Like everybody's ready to roll with all that. My only thing, this would be a little bit more fun if game one was in New York.
- [04:31]
Zach Lowe
No, I think, I think we get to wait. We get to wait and I don't even think it matters if it's 20 spurs. I don't think the vibe will be any different than if it were 1:1 and you know, Knicks would have home court. God forbid, it's two zero Knicks. I mean the Statue of Liberty might already be torn down. If that's the case, I will say that I was in New York Yesterday on, on Sunday with my family, we did just say, hey, hey, finals are starting. There's no games tonight. I don't have Bill's podcast tonight. Cause we did Saturday. Let's have a nice family day. We, we went into Tribeca, played mini golf. We went to a nice playground there. I defended my family mini golf championship, which is now I'm undefeated. And the amount of people wearing Knick stuff is like nothing I've ever seen before in New York. The amount of people shouting go Nicks. At each other, at me, at anybody wearing Knicks stuff that they see is unlike anything I've ever seen before. And here's, you know, mo, 15, 20 years ago, there was a small, I'm not proud of it. There was a small part of me that would have been a little snobby about like, oh, here come the bandwagon fans. How do you even know you know who Mitchell Robinson is? Do you? Can you tell me about Kat's career trajectory to this moment? Here you go, jumping on the bandwagon. And I'm here to tell you that in my soft old age, I've completely changed. Welcome to all the fair weather fans. Because you know what? Fairweather fans are, are truly for the most part, there are some real newbies and by the way, welcome in newbies. Here's this awesome sport that's going to stay awesome and you're going to learn all sorts of stuff about it. It's going to be fun. But fair weather fans are fans whose love of the team is still there. It's just latent. It's just been pushed down by the team sucking by adulthood and other commitments that you have to make as a normal human being. And I say this from my own perspective as a Mets fan. I became a fair weather Mets fan. I lost touch with the team. Other things became more important to me. I had a wife, I had a kid, I had a career. The Mets were up and down and mostly down. And when I had some time again and the Mets became good again, I got back into it. I'm sticking into it. Doesn't make me less of a fan. It's just it was always in my soul. So welcome everybody into this series because this has a chance to, to be a doozy. Mo, I will get into picks at the end, but I am just so excited for this matchup because both of these teams, the spurs, were an elite team, start to finish and they have the best player in the NBA or we were just ready to say it out loud now and, and certainly the one that casual fans are just like, what is this? What can you. Is he been like this for a while? Is it just how tall is he? What's he listed at? Like, everyone's curious and this Knicks team has just obliterated the playoffs and found nirvana. And it's, it's real, it's spectacular, it's sustainable and I just can't wait to see what happened. Where should we even start, Mo?
- [07:36]
Mo De Kiel
I mean, I think we have to start just on the most important question, which is, you know, how are the Knicks going to defend Wemby?
- [07:43]
Zach Lowe
Right.
- [07:43]
Mo De Kiel
I think that's where the starting point of this whole series is. It's a defensive end for the Knicks, it's the offensive end for the the spurs.
- [07:52]
Zach Lowe
And where do we like?
- [07:53]
Mo De Kiel
To me, that's the question one. When I was prepping for the finals, that was the first thing I was looking at was studying, making sure I was watching it. I'm keeping on a track on all that stuff. Had to re watch a game because I felt so focused on that. I kind of missed everything else that happened in the game. But that's how important this is going to be. You know, how do you defend Wemby if you're the Knicks? And I think that's something we need to keep an eye on. And I think that's the starting point, Zach. For me, that's the starting point of the series.
- [08:23]
Zach Lowe
Well, let's just start there then with Victor Wembanyama, who is the nexus of the series on both ends of the floor because conventional stuff either doesn't work or is just a non starter for both teams on both ends of the floor. If you want to start spurs offense, fine. Project number one is we've got to keep him away from the rim. Good luck. His wingspan is like a thousand feet. And the spurs have gotten better at better just throwing the ball in the vicinity at the rim. I would expect Cat to start the series guarding Wembanyama. But as many people have noted, Anunoby has been one of the best Victor Wembanyama defenders in the league and has guarded him a lot in three regular season matchups. The Knicks fared well in those matchups 2 and 1. They won the cup. The Poolian, Weed Eater, Kia Sprite, Taco Bell, Emirates cup. They and they beat him in March in msg. And what was one of their best performances? It's not, I mean before whatever's happening now happened of the season and Anunoby was able to guard Wembanyama in a lot of those matchups because the Knicks had a pretty safe hiding place for Carl Anthony Towns. Like, if the big is not going to guard the big, he's got to guard somebody. In a lot of those games, in most of those three games, it was Harrison Barnes who was starting over Julian Champagne. That was a seismic change. The spurs made a gutsy one and one that has really unlocked their team in part because it really made it more complicated for teams to put their big men on anybody other than Wembanyama. And the spurs want opposing centers on Wembanyama because of their difficulty in tracking him around the floor. That option is gone at the start of games for the Knicks. So that's why I. I wouldn't be surprised if they just started traditionally and put Cat on Wembanyama, which, by the way, would have the benefit of sometimes when Banyama would be stuck on Cat the other end of the floor. And I think if as many times as the Knicks find that they should go to Cat, pick and pops and just try to get open threes, try to get pump and go drives, try to maybe draw some fouls on Wembanyama. But if they could go the other way and just start with an obianum right away. And then the question is, where do you put Cat? I don't really know what the answer is. I don't think Vesel's a great hiding spot. I don't think Fox is a great hiding spot. I don't think Champagne is a great hiding spot. Although that's where the Thunderhead chat and Stefan Castle has proven like it's not going to really work that well on me as Donovan. Donovan Klingan. So what would you do if you were the Knicks?
- [10:51]
Mo De Kiel
I think I would start out and I kind of, I have it in my notes, I would start with Cat on Wemby. And it's not for everything you said. But the other thing too that I think matters also is like, I think OG's the Ace of the hole for them in terms of defending Wemby at some point. But to me, I don't want to show my card that early. I don't want to play that hand that early. Like we've seen in important games like for, like Kauai, for example, may not guard the most important guy for two or three quarters, but then fourth quarter we switch Kawhi on him and then it's the whole thing where it throws sort of a little bit discombobulation makes it a little bit more difficult. Now the, the question that does become extremely difficult is where do you put Cat at that point? Because then you have to figure out how you're going to. You're going to deal with it. I still put him on champagne in that instance, but I start with Cat on Wemby and the most important thing, and this is going to be critical for Cat, he cannot pick up a dumb quick foul.
- [11:48]
Zach Lowe
Well, I was going to say, if he starts on Wemby, what is the over under on foul one. I'm going to set it at. I'm. And I'm being kind of serious. I'm going to set it on 2 minutes and 15 seconds into game one.
- [11:59]
Mo De Kiel
Yeah, I mean that's, it's. To be honest, like, that's a hard call. Like that's a pretty good number for him to pick up on, especially if we comes out of the gate playing with force and I think puts a lot of pressure on them, which I think is going to happen especially here in San Antonio. So I think, like, for me, it's really going to come down to Kat being extremely disciplined because I. We don't know the situation with Mitchell Robinson, whether he plays or not. He's got the pinky. It's, you know, they. They announced the surgery on it all, all of that. But we'll see if he plays game one or not. But I don't want to have to make the switch too early or too quick and have to go to OG right away and then switch and put Katie on champagne because then that changes all my matchups because I'd start out, you know, with OG on Castle right off the bat. And I think that's if you have to start shifting your lineups early to protect Cat. Because as important as Cat is defensively on defending Wemby, you touched on it already. They need him on the offensive end to pull Wemby out of the paint, you know, in the situations where they get cross match and switches and things like that. So they need to make sure they're in that position and I think it's critical for them to that Cat just not pick up a dumb foul in the first two and a half, three minutes, swiping down on a rebound or something like that. And I think that's going to be really important for them. But you got to start. I think the smartest thing is Cat on Wemby. That's what they did really for the start of every game that they've played, unless I'm mistaken. But like, that's how they handled it to start. And I Think that's what you do.
- [13:29]
Zach Lowe
And Cat's been good.
- [13:31]
Mo De Kiel
Like not great, but like pretty good.
- [13:33]
Zach Lowe
Fouls aside, Cat has been very good defensively in the playoffs. The danger of putting Cat on Champagne is not so much that like Champagne explodes. Although he did have 11 threes in one game against the Knicks this year, the one game the spurs won. It's not even that the spurs like suddenly run more of their offense around Champagne, picking and popping and flaring. Like I think that's a trade off the Knicks would actually live with. It's that if Cats on Champagne, where is Brunson? And. And the spurs are obviously going to hunt Brunson a lot on defense with Castle, who's a bully with Fox, try to get him switched onto Fox and then run pick and roll. Visell is not a particularly great matchup, although I think, I think you could stash him on Vassell a little bit here and there. He has guarded Champagne for the most part in this matchup. And I mentioned Fox and you mentioned Ananobi on Castle. I think Castle and Fox are just going to see a combination of all three Knicks wings all the time. Like it's just the Knicks I don't think are going to be that particular about whether Hart guards Fox, their OG guards Fox or Bridges guards Fox. All they've all done it, same with Castle. But that's the challenge is like where is Brunson going to be located? I will give the Knicks have gotten a lot better defensively at protecting Brunson and some of the ways that that will manifest in this series is whenever possible, go under screens for Fox and Castle. As I've mentioned many times, the spurs are unbelievably smart about making that way more difficult than it sounds. They have a million tricks up their sleeve. Castle in particular is just a bulldozer on the way to the rim, but that's one of them. And just Brunson hedging and recovering and the rotations behind him not overcommitting but showing enough help that the offense is indecisive. Trying to. Trying to get the ball to Brunson's guy or work a four on three or whatever. Knicks have just gotten really good at all that and on Cat. You know, I think honestly one of the landmark series of Cat's career was, I think it was two seasons ago when the Wolves swept Phoenix in the first round and Cat guarded Durant pretty much the entire series and guarded him pretty well. He's actually a pretty good guarding down perimeter defender in just Terms of staying down, doing the simple things like, I actually think he could buy them some minutes guarding Castle. I don't think that's a terrible matchup. I think he could buy them some minutes guarding Visell. But all of that is going to be very interesting. I don't worry so much about keeping the OG card in my back pocket because they know it's coming. They've seen it already. It might be my best option anyway, and I'm gonna go to it in game one, the minute Keldon Johnson is in the game or Barnes is in the game. Yeah, they're gonna put Cat on those guys and cross match that way. But look, there's no great answer for him. And no team has figured out how to keep him away from the rim for a full two, two consecutive games. And when he makes his threes, forget about it. I mean he's just that good of a player. But those are some of the t. What else should we do? Oh, Mitchell Robinson. Yeah, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Mitchell Robinson could swing the entire NBA finals. And that sounds like a little much from a guy who plays 15 to 20 minutes a game less in the playoffs because he can't hit a goddamn free throw. The more I watch the spurs, you need a little bit if you're going to score enough to survive against this one man wrecking crew of a defense. And that's not to say they don't have other guys, but Wemby is the, the Keystone. He's half the Arch. He's everything. You need a lot of things, I think you need a lot of shooting for the most part. The Knicks I think have enough shooting, particularly with Cat at the five. One ingredient you've got to have. The more I watch them, the more I'm convinced. And this is going to help Mitchell Robinson in free agency, it's going to help Time Lord in free agency, it's going to help guys like this. I think you need to have a center in your rotation who is an elite offensive rebounder and also an elite lob catcher who can do both of those things at a super high level, who can make Wemby at least think, if I challenge this shot and I don't get it, is someone behind me going to be able to punish me? And that's going to like there will be five shots a game where he doesn't go for it because he's scared of that guy or five shots he goes for and maybe doesn't get. And that Guy actually punishes him. And Mitchell Robinson is the single best offensive rebounder in the entire NBA in an elite, elite lob catcher. To the point that some of New York's best offense all season, including in this run, has been when cat rests, just spam the Brunson Robinson pick and roll. They get lobs. Bridges Robinson, they get lobs. They get floaters. They get everything out of it. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say, like, it might swing my pick. It might swing the entire Finals. Whether Mitchell Robinson can play and play effectively with this injury. It might be a little hyperbolic, but only in my opinion. Only a little. Maybe you disagree.
- [18:23]
Mo De Kiel
No, I think it's to a degree, maybe a little bit hyperbolic, but it's not disagree.
- [18:28]
Zach Lowe
Don't be like, bring it then.
- [18:30]
Mo De Kiel
No, I just think the more important thing about that is just like we've seen this for. As they've gotten crushed on the offensive glass.
- [18:37]
Zach Lowe
Really. We saw it by Mitchell Robinson.
- [18:40]
Mo De Kiel
By Mitchell Robinson. We saw that it's in.
- [18:43]
Zach Lowe
In the.
- [18:43]
Mo De Kiel
The NBA Cup. I think they had 11 offensive rebounds in the fourth quarter. I think of the NBA cup game alone, and I think that that changed everything for them. With everything that you have.
- [18:52]
Zach Lowe
You know what? I've forgotten about that game, by the way. I forgot how heavy, heavily, Tyler Coleck was involved. When I went back and watched that game, I was like, wow, Tyler Kolak, there was like a. They found something off the bench with this guy. And like, I thought. I thought we were about to get
- [19:04]
Mo De Kiel
a lot more of him after that. I thought we were going to get a whole run of a lot of Tyler Kolek through the course of the season. But I think the thing for me, back to the Mitchell Robinson point, because you're right, like, Wempy has to decide, am I going to come over and try to contest the shot or am I going to make sure he doesn't get the. The. The rebound. And I think the thing for me with the spurs, and this really caught my eye in game seven, they completely flipped the offensive rebounding numbers in the first half. They were getting cooked by the Thunder, right? Like, that's how the Thunder were really in that game. And then in the second half, you obviously can tell in halftime, that was a stress point of, you know, Mitch, Mitch Johnson, excuse me, went in there and just said, we can't let them get another offensive now they got one. But that was it for the rest of the second half. And I think that's the thing where I Gang, rebound, all that. I think there's going to be an emphasis on from the spurs understanding of hey, we need Wemby to contest these shots, we need Wemby to get blocks, we need him to kind of put that pressure on them. But we have to put a body on Mitchell Robinson, on Josh Hart, on all these guys who are crashing and make sure we finish these possessions with rebounds. I feel like with the spurs that's going to be the, a focal point for them and I think going into game one, we'll see it right away.
- [20:18]
Zach Lowe
Just a couple of statistical notes before we turn to the the nitty gritty of the spurs offense. These are two of the best rebounding teams in the entire league and that's going to be obviously a pivot point. The Knicks were seventh in offensive rebounding rate and obviously much better when Robinson plays. The spurs were 10th and they're two of the top four teams in defense rebounding rate. The Knicks were first in the regular, I'm sorry, the spurs were first in the regular season. The Knicks were fourth. Spurs were also an extremely low turnover team. They were fifth lowest turnover rate on offense. That's jumped a little bit in the playoffs. That's what happens when you play the Thunder. And the Knicks were kind of average at forcing turnovers on the other end. The Knicks were a pretty low turnover team themselves and the spurs were actually 28th in turnover rate forced on defense, which surprised me a little bit. So the Knicks probably need to win the turnover battle given those statistical indicators to win the series. And just, you know, fun Trivia Number Numbers 1 and 2 in corner threes attempted per game in this series. So the corners are going to be an interesting little battleground. But let's go back to the spurs offense then. Like what's another wrinkle matchup? Like what else should we be looking at in your eyes when, when the spurs have the ball?
- [21:28]
Mo De Kiel
I think the most important thing is watching how do they utilize the off ball movement like when Robinson's in the game. Right. Like the way they're going to deploy Wemby is going to be different, I think than the way they use use M1 Cat or OGs in the game. I think you'll see more ball screens when it's those guys. With Robinson you can kind of play a little bit more on the perimeter. Look at that wide pin down opportunities right there for, for Wemby to kind of come off the wide pin down. That's usually going to be a situation where Robinson's either going to End up sagging and. And. And trying to go underneath the screen. It might open up a flare for a three from. From Wemby. That's going to open up curls. It's going to open up a lot of different things for him, but he's going to have a little bit more space to operate. So for me, just on the offensive end, how they match up is how the spurs are going to run. Right? Like when they have Cat on the floor and. Or OG guarding him, I think you're going to see a lot of heavy pick and roll. Try to put them in bad spots and. And sort of force them into different situations and have him free up on the roll. You know, Cat can get hung up on these picks sometimes and get lost. And that opens up the lob over the top for Wemby. I think you got to find the different stuff that they can work in. You're going to see off ball movements into getting Wemby onto the. The elbow, I think, personally, I like it when it starts from the bottom and Wemby works his way up instead of him trying to come in from the top into the elbow and fight for position. I think there's going to be a lot of interesting areas for me of where does Wemby end up getting to operate offensively, depending on who's on him. And I think that's kind of a thing that the Knicks need to also kind of focus on. It's not just we need to get him out of the paint, but it's making sure he doesn't have space.
- [23:02]
Zach Lowe
What a test for OGN and Obi. I mean, one of the very best defensive players in the entire world. Sensational season, little bit of an injury blip in the playoffs. He seems to have recovered completely from that. Just a sensational playoff run. We saw in the first round that Wemby, as he's gotten more forceful, more aggressive, more decisive, rolling to the rim, putting wings on him. It just. It allows him to live at the basket in most cases. Like, J Dub started game one against guarding him for the most part, and he just lived at the rim. And then they switched it up right away in Game 2. Put Hartenstein on him, guarded him with Biggs, and he had to work a little harder to get back up to the rim frequency that he was at in game one and still never really got there. OG Is a bigger, better defender than J Dub by a little bit. At least. J Dub is really good. And the thing that Wendy's gotten good at is like, okay, so let's say you put heart on Fox and OG and Nobi on me. And you're going to switch, pick and rolls. And that's the whole thing, right? Well, Wemby's gotten good at just like, you're gonna switch. I know you're gonna switch. I'm gonna lock you on top of me, roll to the rim. They're just gonna throw it up to me or you're gonna just crash all your guys onto me. And a three is gonna be open like, it's just gonna be interesting to see has he advanced like an obi is like the final boss of Wings defending Wembanyama. And if the Knicks are going to win the series, he's going to do enough to at least make it a fair fight. I just, I can't wait to. I just can't wait for all this. Let's take a quick break and then we'll flip. Oh, go. Go ahead. You. I got one more thing to say
- [24:37]
Mo De Kiel
just, just on that specific, specific thing about Hart switching onto him, that happened in the NBA cup and they just threw a lob. Wemby just reverse dunked it like it was nothing. Like that's the kind of stuff that you're going to get when you have Hart ending up switching on to him. So I think those are the things that again, you got to worry about if you're the Knicks.
- [24:53]
Zach Lowe
And a lot of it with Wemby is just, you know, I don't want to say that the three point shot is the easy way out for him because he's playing so goddamn hard over so many minutes and I cannot even begin to imagine the level of fitness and toughness. Mentally you have to have to do any part of what he does, but he is going to have to dig deep on and like, all right, maybe this isn't the time for me to shoot this three or this 18 footer or I have the ball at the nail and I could shoot this 18 footer and I'll probably make it 40% of the time, but man, my team really needs a bucket or a point, a free throw, something. And I know I'm one pivot move away from reaching up into a like a half hook, almost a layup and getting fouled. And the spurs are at their best when he's able to summon everything he has in him to make that happen and just want to a little bit more to the rim. And that's why I loved, I loved everything about Wemby's reaction to winning the conference finals. Yes, I loved how he said he's discovering something that he has inside of himself, a level of endurance and toughness and physicality that he frankly didn't even know he had. And he wants to feel it over and over again because that's, that's what it takes, particularly when you're 75 and people's default against you is going to be, we're going to just beat you up. I love the emotional reaction. I love every time he cries. I love. I don't care about. In fact, you know what I thought about Mo. Remember that it was like seven or eight years ago at the Women's Final Four when Gino Orema had his infamous. Just like, I'm going to get on my soapbox and talk about how I want players who try really hard all the time and are legitimately happy for their teammates. And he talked about how trying hard and giving full effort has kind of become, like, uncool in some circles. And it. And like, to the point that try hard has become an insult. Like, oh, he's just a try hard guy. And trying hard looks ugly sometimes. Like when you're chugging at full, at full speed, full effort, like, you're going to make funny faces, your body's going to do fun stuff, funny stuff, you're going to like, fall and fail and it's going to be embarrassing. Sometimes it's even like, I can see my daughter and her friends going through this when they play sports. And I try to tell her, like, trying really hard is a really cool thing. Like, it's a cool thing to do. And I. Showing emotion like that and being honest and vulnerable about. I love. I loved all of it. And I thought of that Gino Oriema thing when he talked about just pure effort all the time and not giving a. About how it looks or what anybody thinks.
- [27:24]
Mo De Kiel
Yeah, it's the coolest thing. I mean, we got into the point where it looked cool to not care, right? And I think, you know, and these guys cared, by the way. Like, let's just be honest, all the players do care. But, like, hey, if it looks, they make it look so easy, as if it's effortless and stuff like that. And I get stuck in that sometimes, too. But it was cool to just see him. I remember when he did it in the Clipper game when they came back in the regular season and he was crying off of that game. Like, it's fun to watch him emotionally invested in all of these things, in the wins, in the losses. One he's pissed off, one he's you know, when he's happy and enjoying the, enjoying the fruits of it all. We need to normalize it again, man. Like, we need these guys to kind of show that outward emotion. I love every bit of it.
- [28:10]
Zach Lowe
All right, let's take a break after this love fest, this emotional therapy session we've just had, and we'll talk about what the hell the Knicks are going to do on offense against Victor Wembanyama. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. The NBA Finals are here and every time the Finals rolled around, all the memories of start to flow into my brain. LeBron's block on Andre Goal. I was there. I had a perfect angle on it. I, I almost had a heart attack on Pres Row. I ran to a monitor to try to see if he actually got in and it wasn't a goaltend and I felt like I needed a Michelob Ultra. I wish I had drunk a beer with my dad when we were watching the flu game together on our couch and just marveling at what we were seeing Michael Jordan do. And of all the amazing plays and moments that happen, the best ones are served cold. Just like Michelob Ultra is Superior light beer. What's even better, since they're getting people closer to the game with a chance to win tickets, custom merch and more, Michelob Ultra Superior is worth paying for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21/plus begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelobultro.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Men's Wearhouse. So you've looked at all the data, you've looked at your lineup and yep, you need to freshen up your wardrobe. So check out Men's Wearhouse. They've got you covered for every occasion with a huge variety of clothing and styles. From tailored clothing like suits, sports coats, dress shirts, tuxes for more formal events to casual clothing like polo shirts, shorts and jeans for everyday wear. The Men's Warehouse experts can help you find the right look. While their on site tailors guarantee your clothes have the right fit for your body. Men's wearhouse has over 600 locations nationwide. They are here and nearby when you're ready to love the way you look. 1 All right, let's flip it around. Mo Knicks have the ball, obviously their offense. These teams were tied for third in offensive efficiency in the regular season. The Knicks have ascended to a different planet on offense in the regular season. Let's talk about how they're going to attack the single greatest defensive force the league has seen in a long time. And we're not far from saying ever at this point with what Wemby is doing. I would expect the normal thing that a lot of teams do against the Knicks and the Dispers have done against the Knicks and that's for Victor Wenyama to guard, slash, not guard Josh Hart and play a one man zone and put wings on Cat and try to switch the Brunson Cat pick and roll and just take them out of all of that. Now what the matchups are is be is interesting. I personally like Fox guarded Brunson more than I thought in the regular season. I didn't think he looked particularly up to that. And I would try to avoid that matchup at the Spurs. What I would probably do is put Castle. If I'm gonna put Wemby on Hart and I think that is the way they'll start. We'll see Wemby on Cat, plenty. Wemby on Mitchell Robinson for sure. If I'm gonna start Wemb on Hart and just say Roman, play zone like Hart has seen over and over again in the playoffs in the regular season. I'll put Castle on Brunson, Champagne on Bridges or I'm sorry, Fox on Bridges.
- [31:18]
Andrew Schleck
Right.
- [31:19]
Zach Lowe
And Vassell on Cat and Fox on Bridges and Champagne on whoever. I'm for an anobi, I guess. I want, I want, I want to start with Castle on Brunson. The sell on Cat is not great and Cat's going to have opportunities to post up in this series. And that's sort of the flip side of the Harrison Barnes Champagne. Switch out the spurs they made as they have gotten smaller and this is a matchup or that that could actually hurt them a little bit. But that's how I would match up and that's how I expect them to match up. And then Castle on Brunson is a fascinating matchup. I mean, what a test for Jalen Brunson. And then, you know, you switch and you put Castle on to Cat the sell on the Bronze. That's what I would do if I were Mitch Johnson. It doesn't matter what I think. They could surprise us by just saying, hey, we're going to save that card and we're going to open with Wembanyama and Cat Even if it's just for five possessions to throw you off course. But obviously we're going to see a lot of that. And I did think it was notable that in that March game, Josh Hart set the most ball screens he's ever set in a game in the NBA. And it was one way the Knicks coped with. Okay, if you're putting your big guy on Josh Hart and not cat, well, Josh Hart is, is the, I guess, worst shooter in our starting five. You're going to treat him like a non shooter. We're going to play him as if he's a non shooter and make him a roller and surround him with shooting. And they actually got in a rhythm with that against the spurs, particularly in that game in March. That's obviously going to be like the biggest cat and mouse game of the series for the Knicks offense. Do you, do you think we'll see that right off the bat?
- [32:49]
Mo De Kiel
I think so. Just because I think Brunson is so important for them offensively that I think you put Castle on him right away to kind of set the tone and pick up full court, press him, make it hard for him and you know how it'll go. They'll have somebody else bring the ball up and then it'll get to Brunson eventually. But that opens up the opportunity for Castle to play in denial. So I think Hart is going to be huge in this series because like you said, it's not just the ball screens, but it's if Wemby's not going to guard him, he has to hit his threes. We saw what it looked like in game one in the Eastern Conference finals where he wasn't making his shots. Now, of course, they added Shamit in and everything changed.
- [33:27]
Zach Lowe
And now we'll talk about that. We'll talk about the Landry Shambit machine that's happening.
- [33:32]
Mo De Kiel
Well, we're going to get to these things, but like, I think the important thing right there is how Hart is playing is going to be a big deal for the Knicks offensively. Right. But I think more importantly is, you know, how will the Knicks handle the pressure from the Spurs? Because I think they're going to pick up full. I think they're going to pressure them early on, make them work and try to get into them as much as possible. I mean, he's not. Brunson's not the same as Shay, but it's a similar test in the sense of like the isolation and having to be on top of everything. Now Brunson, Brunson's a Different sort of challenge for Castle and the craftiness and the way that he plays and the moves that he's capable of making. So I think it's going to be a fun cat and mouse just between the two of them. But I'm fascinated to see how the Knicks are going to work and get off ball because I think for me the key for them offensively is let's get Brunson off ball and get him back to the ball and open it up from there. And I, you know, we saw it with Kat getting the catches at the elbow and going, going operating out of that because I think he might have to be the main facilitator if Wemby's not going to be on him. He might be the guy that you, you facilitate and run your offense through. Especially if it's a Vassell or Champagne that's starting out on him. You might need to go to that and I think that'll open stuff up and you could still use hard as the screener for Brunson. It opens up lanes and, and opportunities with everything that goes through it. It's going to be a really fun sort of chess match between these two coaches in terms of how do they handle these things and mix up their matchups as they go through everything.
- [35:03]
Zach Lowe
Well, and this is the power of Wembanyama and how he's like nobody we've ever seen before. Because playing a one man zone with your best friend protector is not a novel concept.
- [35:12]
Mo De Kiel
Right.
- [35:15]
Zach Lowe
I think what the spurs have discovered is he's so fast and so long and so determined that you can get away with him playing that way against more lineups in different lineups than you. You would think, to wit, like this idea of, okay, we'll bring Josh Hart into the pick and roll. You know, I'm going to talk about it with Andrew Schlecht about the Thunder and Chet Holmgren. The idea of bringing Chet Holmgren into the pick and roll. If Wemby's on him, Wemby doesn't have to cooperate in that. The spurs don't have to cooperate in that. As soon as Josh Hart goes into a pick and roll, Wemby can just tag out and I'm going to stay here in the corner. And if it's Mikhail Bridges, okay, he's a more dangerous shooter. I don't care. I'm Victor Weminyama, OG Anunoby. He might be the most dangerous corner three shooter in the league. That's a different ball game. But I can cover so much space so Fast that you can't manipulate Victor Wembanyama in the ways that you can manipulate every other big man who's ever tried this gambit. They don't have to drag him in to the now. Sometimes they will. And I thought the Thunder, particularly in Game 5, found some ways to coax him up the floor a little bit when he was in that one man zone. Like clear his side of the floor completely of just, just two guys. Everyone else is over on the other side. So he kind of has to defend in the pick and roll. So there's that. And I think that even applies to, like you mentioned, Shamet. One of the big X factors in the series is going to be who does Victor guard when they put five shooters on the floor, when they flip Shamet or who Deuce McBride or whoever in the Josh Hart spot. And that's troubling for any big man. But I don't think the response is going to be well, now he just has to guard Cat, you know, but there's no other option for us. Sometimes he'll guard Cat because maybe that's working, maybe that feels good. I think the spurs have gotten more daring and have been rewarded for it by just saying, oh, we'll, we'll still park him in the corner and just, you know, if Mikhail Bridges is over there, you know, we'll figure that out. If an obi. He's Victor Weyama and I, I don't think it's going to be as simple as go five shooters and he guards Cat and now our offense is opened up. I don't think it's going to be that simple. All that said, I think the Knicks are ready for this. I think the biggest reason for Knicks optimism is that the Knicks have seen, even though they haven't seen a defender like Wembanyama, they've seen so many different kinds of defenses against them and particularly against Hart and against Cat. Switching the Brunson Cat pick and roll, roaming off heart, whatever it is that they are in such a rhythm with all the different answers to those questions. You mentioned starting Brunson off the ball like even, okay, fine, you're going to switch to the Brunson Cat pick and roll. They know that ahead of time and they'll. They'll run it and Cat will lock the guy on his back who switches onto him. They'll swing it over to Josh Hart on the wing and Josh Hart will hit Cat on the roll and like they'll get your defense and they are just so they are ready to answer the question before you even ask it. And they're in such a good rhythm with everybody touching the ball and everyone getting the defense in a blender. And this blender is the hardest one to beat in the league because of the guy at the back line of it and he's going to beat. You can do all sorts of fancy shit and everyone touches it twice and cuts and then it doesn't matter. But I think the Knicks have a lot of are. Are just ready for this challenge. And part of it is the creativity they've shown against a defense that is not going to give them any easy answers. Like I said, like they'll sham it all. Shooting lineup is going to be big in the series, but I just wouldn't assume if I were a Knicks fan that when we play that the spurs are going to suddenly just play traditional defense only with Victor Weyama.
- [38:41]
Mo De Kiel
No, they need to see that. They need to see what it looks like and then see what their defense looks like against that and how that's going to operate. You know, I, I agree with you in the sense of the Knicks have seen everything that can be thrown at them. Nothing new was coming their way in in all this. And also I would say it works the other way too with the Spurs. They're not going to see anything brand new with, with it. It's just different people and different names involved in it. I think the challenge for the Knicks too is just how good the spurs are in their rotations. It's not just Wemby on the one step and he's already kind of covered the rotation that he needs to make, but it's the other guys that are firing out of the, the, the situations and where they need to be and chase somebody off the line and funnel them into Wempy. And that's. I think that where we're going to see some real interesting stuff there. But I think for the spurs early on at least, go ahead, go do your go do. Let's see what this looks like. No need for us to panic right away and, and, and kind of figure out what can we do against this, you know, or we have to change against this or, or throw our hands up and live with it. I think that the beauty of the Knicks though, and I think this is something that Mike Brown needs. You know, I think we've talked about it before, but just them changing their offense completely on the fly through the course of the playoffs and adding another variable. They didn't have this last year. Last year it was all Brunson isolation Pick and roll. He had to create everything. Now they have different things they can go to as a playmaker and operator. From there, they run different actions for og run different stuff for Mikhail Bridges. There's diversity in what they can do, and I think that makes them so difficult to defend. I'm really going to be interested to see what offense do they start out in and what do they end in, you know, and how do they kind of work their way through their options with everything they go through? Because, yeah, the spurs are going to take some stuff away, and there's going to be some stuff that they're. The Knicks are going to be able to hit them on. Obviously, the most important thing is they need to keep shooting their threes and making them at the high clip that they've been able to. To keep that floor spread and make it so that it's difficult for Wemby. Make Wemby have to be like, I want to stay in the paint, but I need to come contest that. And then that opens up opportunities, opens up offensive rebounds. Everything that we've talked about earlier, I think all of that stuff comes into play. It's going to be really a fascinating sort of study to see how this sort of works itself out while we're going through at least Game one.
- [41:08]
Zach Lowe
And what a moment for Jalen Brunson, who is already the most beloved Knick since Patrick Ewing, with one title, will put himself in a historic stratosphere that I'm not even sure he and his people understand yet. What would happen if he's the best player on the first Knicks title team in 53 years. And to beat. To beat the spurs, you do need to have a guard who can make enough. Your lead guy, your lead ball handler, needs to make enough of what I call the before Wemby shots. The shots where it's just like, all right, I'm going. I'm going one on one, or I. I have a guy on my hip in the pick and roll, and Wemby's not in the play yet. He's lurking, but we're 19ft from the rim. He's not here yet. And, yeah, there's a guy digging on me from over here. And boy, do the spurs just show and show and recover. Show and recover. They flinch, they stunt, they make you think. The before Wemby shot were the shots that Shea was hitting in Game seven, where it's just, I got a guy on me, he's draped on me. I just got to shoot this because we're not getting anything Better. And weirdly, in rewatching the Spurs Knicks games and obviously just having watched Shay, the two time MVP against the spurs seven times, I actually think Brunson is better at those shots, better at getting separation on those shots almost even than Shea is. And I think he can make an. I mean he's shorter than Shea. He probably hit a lower percentage from mid range than Shea. So this sounds sacrilegious. I just felt like Shay couldn't get any easy looks against the Spurs. That's obviously a lot of Wemby. They have great perimeter defenders. I just think Brunson's footwork and bulk is a, is just, he's just a different animal. Like I think he's going to be able to get decent 18 footers and for the Knicks to win he's just going to have to make a lot of them and I think he's capable of it.
- [42:56]
Mo De Kiel
Yeah, no, I mean that's got to be the shot that they got to hit is the mid range shot. You know, I think in my notes, you know, through the course of the playoffs The Knicks had 50 average 53 points in the paint. That number is going to go down against the Spurs. The spurs are giving up about 40 points in the paint.
- [43:13]
Zach Lowe
It feels like 10.
- [43:16]
Mo De Kiel
Well when Wemby's on the floor it feels like 10. If you. Then when Cornet comes in, unfortunately he's got to deal with everybody.
- [43:23]
Zach Lowe
And again like Cornet's not bad, he's just normal. That's he.
- [43:26]
Mo De Kiel
No, he's normal straight way. It's a great way to phrase it. It's. He's just normal and average. It's just he's following up a dude that's absolutely historic with what he does. So that shot's going to be critical. But that's also going to mean the spurs perimeter defenders. Castle, Visell, Harper, they go in it, they got to be tight on Brunson. They can't fall for it too when and pick up a cheap foul with, with him when he leans into him and goes up for the shot and things like that, they're going to have to be. That's what they did against Shea. When you go watch those shots, especially from game seven and Shea made a ton of them, but they were so damn hard because those guys were all over him. There was no airspace and I think that's got to be the deal for the spurs but for the Knicks they got to make sure there's enough room for, for Brunson to operate and get into the mid range Because I'm going to. I call it the U turn. We're like, we're going to see a bunch of guys drive in, see Wemby and U turn right out of that. And I think that paint kind of being shut down is going to be a problem for the Knicks. So they need to make up for those points. And it's got to be somewhere in the mid range. And I know it's. It's going to be interesting. Brunson can do it. I'm confident in that. Brunson, if he gets enough of those clean looks, he's going to cause problems. And that's going to force Wemby to edge up a little bit more and want to contest those a little bit more. And then that's going to open up stuff along the baseline for the Knicks. Whether it's a dunker, spot dunk for Mitchell Robinson or Hart kind of cutting along the baseline and getting an easy bucket, there's going to be a lot of those things. It's got to be Brunson hitting those shots, though, because that will soften up the defense and open up doors for the Knicks for them to be able to walk through.
- [45:06]
Zach Lowe
And Hart, Hart, the Hart, like offensive rebounding and cutting is a big part of how he beats this scheme where teams put centers on him. It's not just Hart hitting threes, and he'll have. If they're going to do this, he's going to have to hit a requisite number of threes. And he's not. Obviously, Mitchell Robinson is an offensive rebounder, but he's a really slick offensive rebounder about getting into space. He has a great nose for the ball. And if Victor is going to ignore him, I think that is a key variable. Particularly if Mitchell Robinson can't make his normal impact on the series for whatever reason. The bench you mentioned, you mentioned Dylan Harper. I think the Knicks are a little deeper than the spurs, particularly if Robinson can give them 80% of what he normally gives them. The spurs are really down to three and a half guys off the bench. Harper, Keldon, Johnson, who is really up and down and a good bellwether for them, and Cornet, again, like minutes are down impacts a little down the block in game seven. I mean, forget it. If they, they win the title and he does nothing else in the entire rest of the Finals. That block, it's not. I don't know if we're going to see a statue of it, but if I were like a local restaurant owner in San Antonio, I might commission a Little statue of it outside my bar. And then, and then Carter Bryant for like it's hit or miss, right? He could play three minutes in the first half and not see him again. I think that, you know, who wins those bench battles is, is big and foul trouble. I just don't think the cat fell trouble thing can be talked about enough because of the Mitchell Robinson pinky finger. And I just wonder, I mean, if both those guys are out for any period of time in a game. I mean, like for a stretch of a game, the choice is Huck Porty or it's Anobi at center. And I really would be interested to see what Anobi at center looks like against Wembanyama because that's a lineup that can really stretch you out and open up driving gaps and get the blender going. Is it too small? Can it, can it? Is he just going to demolish it with lobs and offensive rebounds in, in the long haul, probably. But this isn't a long haul. It's a short series. And if that lineup for The Knicks hits 10 threes and a quarter and a half or something, it could swing a game. I think we're going to see it at some point.
- [47:26]
Mo De Kiel
I think we have to. I think you have to be. Everything has to be on the table for both teams when you're trying to win this championship right now. And I think this is actually really evenly matched. I think this is really. I heard you talking with Bill on Saturday and the odds were kind of a little bit surprising to me with how, how high the, the spurs were favored. To me it felt more like a, it feels more like a pick em. And I think the interesting thing too about that five man lineup where it's OG at the five in short bursts too, it doesn't have to be like, I think the longer Wemby sees something, the sooner he figures it out. But if you ran it, forget quarter and a half, if you ran it for four or five minutes, cool. We bought time, got a, got a couple of threes, boom, bring it back out and run it for another, you know, six minutes. I think it's, it kind of makes it a little harder for Wemby to catch a beat on that. And I think that's kind of the, the deal for me with, with understanding and, and even the spurs trying to figure out like the defense to have to kind of shuffle back and forth defensively gets hard.
- [48:30]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [48:30]
Mo De Kiel
In the long run, you're right. Offensively they would, I mean they'd get crushed by the spurs on the offensive side, where the spurs would be able to, you know, throw lobs. There's probably a bunch of offensive rebound opportunities for them and, and really kind of go to work with that. But I think if you do it in bursts would be something. I'd be really interested to see how they, how the spurs handle that.
- [48:51]
Zach Lowe
I'm looking through my notes, which look like the notes of a madman. I like to write down things on paper still. Have we to see what if we've missed any wrinkle, any thing, any. Any X's and O's thing. What. What have. What would you like to. What have we missed?
- [49:07]
Mo De Kiel
Well, one thing to me is going to be the transition game, right. And getting the easy buckets. And I think, you know, for me, and it's not just transition for me with the Spurs. Spurs, when they play fast and they get the ball up the court quickly, it really kind of allows their offense to find. Find its full. And that's a. By the way, it's not just a Spurs thing. Every team should be trying to get the ball up the court quickly and get more time to run offense and run their actions. But I feel like the spurs, when they get not necessarily transition but early offense stuff where they get a quick drive and it flattens out the defense, I almost feel like they always get a good look on that possession because whether it's the team had the cross match and they're in matchups they don't like or they rotated, they weren't quite ready for it and it opened up an opportunity for somebody else to find buckets. You know, there was a Dylan Harper early offense drive that led to Champagne three in game seven. That kind of changed things in terms of the momentum and I think those are the things for me. Can the Knicks slow them down and keep them at a slower pace? You know, the Knicks like to play fast, too. I mean, we saw what they did to the Cavs, but part of that is the Cavs just decided they weren't going to play any transition defense. But I think the, if they can slow down the Spurs, I think that's an area they got to hit. That's a pressure point I would want to touch on if I'm the Knicks of like, we want this to be a little bit slower so that they're not flying up and down the court because offensively they'll start to cook.
- [50:37]
Zach Lowe
Part of that is limiting their turnovers. And again, the spurs do not force very many and that's helpful to the Knicks. Yeah, I Mean, it's. They're going to have to do a lot of things right offensively. And the spurs transition, limiting the spurs in transition is a huge part of that. And the cat foul trouble is a huge part of that. And you said something about the spurs that I already. Oh, Harper, Harper. I mentioned before how the Knicks have gotten better at dealing with teams hunting Jalen Brunson not giving up the switch as easily and helping behind him. It's really going to be tested in this series because Castle in particular had some bully ball attacks against the Knicks, even against Bridges, even against Hart in the regular season. That was like, oh, my God. And the stuff Harper was doing against Oklahoma City when he looked healthy is. I mean, Brunson's stout and is not easy to move, but he's just so small compared to the spurs guys and they're so aggressive and so fierce that that's going to be an issue. On the other hand, I. I think Brunson will try to hunt Fox, too, on defense when, when the Knicks have the ball. Even if it's just let me get him switched on to me before I go in to the real action that we're going to run. Whether it's a pick and roll or some flex stuff or whatever they do. I think this is a really even matchup. Should we do picks? Should we do it? Let's.
- [51:54]
Mo De Kiel
Let's do it. This has been a tough one. I've literally was on the plane flying here and it was going back and forth over and over again. I'm so excited for the series just because I think it's so close.
- [52:04]
Zach Lowe
I've tried so hard. I mean, so hard. I've. I've tried in many different ways to get a beat on Mitchell Robinson's status in the last 40 hours. And I'm just telling. I'm telling people like, I don't even. I'm not breaking news. I just want to know who to pick, right? And I haven't been able to find much out. That's how close it is. I think it's a very close series. It's gonna be a long series. I'll let you go first.
- [52:28]
Mo De Kiel
I. I am leaning spurs in seven. I think it's going seven. I think it's going the distance. At the very least, this is going six. I just think there's just a couple more levers for me that I think the spurs can touch on that. I don't know if the Knicks can. And I think Wemby is just such a force that it's a problem for everybody else to have to deal with.
- [52:56]
Zach Lowe
Cat's foul trouble terrifies me, especially in light of the uncertainty on Mitchell Robinson, who I assume is going to try to play after just having gone undergone surgery. So I don't know what his pain tolerance is going to be. I don't know what he's going to be wearing on his hand. As I joked with Bill, I don't think it can make his free throw shooting any worse. Maybe it has the Schnozaru effect that Rick Hamilton and wearing the mascot, it like unlocks some super free throw shooting for him. I don't know. That to me is the single biggest reason other than obviously Wemby and their general billions to pick this to pick against the Knicks and pick the spurs in the series. The spurs are favored. They deserve to be favored. They've been the better team all year. They have home court. I went back and forth so many times and particularly in light of the Robinson injury. I'm going to pick the Knicks. It. Yeah, I'm going to pick the Knicks in seven.
- [53:52]
Mo De Kiel
It's. I mean it's. Listen, they might have caught lightning in a bottle. Like the way they're playing is pretty. We've seen this stuff. We've seen the Lakers do it in. Was it 2001 where they went on that run and I think they had
- [54:06]
Zach Lowe
a little bit of a track record that the Knicks don't have at that. At that point. But yes, you know, but we've kind
- [54:12]
Mo De Kiel
of seen this, you know, we've seen it from the Mavs. Like we've seen years where teams just go. It's the equivalent of hockey riding a hot goaltender.
- [54:19]
Andrew Schleck
Right.
- [54:20]
Mo De Kiel
Like they're just rolling right now. It wouldn't shock me. Like this is really close. I hope Knicks fans aren't going to be like, you know, all mad at me. This is tight. This is tight.
- [54:29]
Zach Lowe
This is going to be a very close ass series. I'm going, fuck it. I'm going to pick the Knicks. I'm going to pick the Knicks in seven. Despite all the concerns I just laid out about Robinson's injury and Cats foul trouble and all of that. I can't believe I'm picking the Knicks. I am a believer. Mo, I believe you can talk to me about the Cavs. Let go of the rope. The Hawks were a paper tiger who actually took two games off him and the Sixers were good for a hot second against Boston. And then Embiid got hurt again and they lost their mojo. I get it might be recency Bias. I might be weighing too much what they did to those teams who had limitations that the spurs certainly don't have. I believe in what the Knicks have done. I think they have found something magical in the last month and I think they're going to ride it to the first title in 53 years. I'm picking Nixon 7 because I think it will be a long series. I think road teams can win game sevens now. We've seen it over and over again. And as much as they have the Robinson thing unknown going against them and the ripple effects that presents for Cats foul trouble, I just feel like they're ready for this. I feel like they're ready for it that they have found this version of themselves that I'm not even sure they knew they had. And the other thing they have going for them that at least counteracts a little bit of that is they're super well rested and the spurs just had to dig super deep to beat the Thunder. And I don't not really worried that the spurs are tired, they're young, they're deep and all that. I think these are two evenly matched teams. But I believe that what the Knicks have done in the last month and a half is a real thing. I picked them to make the finals before the season, so I already thought they were good. I lost a little bit of faith in those wonky January and March periods where they were a little wonky. I'm picking them to win the title. Knicks in seven. Knicks end the title drought. And God help us Mo if they win the title. I told Bill this, I'm just going. I'm taking Metro North. I'm going into the city. And whatever reaction podcast I do might just be me in a bar and people screaming for an hour. Because I can't even tell you how on fire New York is right now about the Knicks. And I think it's awesome. I think the spurs are awesome. I think Wemby's unbelievable. It may be corny. It's corny. It's the corny pick. I think it's the Knicks time. I'm picking the Knicks in seven.
- [56:52]
Mo De Kiel
I mean, I don't blame you. Like, this is in everything that we've seen from them. Because, look, I picked them to go to the finals, too. And my whole thing with picking them going to the finals was like, who else was I going to pick in the East? I didn't believe in Cleveland. We knew the situation with Boston. This was at the start of the season. But now I'm. I picked them to go to the finals for all the wrong reasons, it feels like, because this team deserves to be at the Finals. And I hate all the stuff where everybody talks about, look at the road they took. And the thing. Can I just say, like, they did what they were supposed to do. They beat the crap out of all of those.
- [57:23]
Zach Lowe
They beat all these teams by 1,000 points over, like, sorry, the Hawks weren't ready. Yeah, they lost by 59.
- [57:30]
Mo De Kiel
They blew out the competition. So that shouldn't be considered a strike against them. It's not like they barely got. They didn't win four close games against the Cavs. You know, they blew them out in three. And even the overtime in game one wasn't that close. Didn't, you know, in the way we were set up? So for me, I don't think there's a. It's so close. Like, I don't have any problem with anybody picking the Knicks. All I know is we all better buckle up because this is going to be a close series.
- [57:57]
Zach Lowe
I was. I was ready to pull the trigger on Nixon 6 before the Robinson news broke. And that threw me into. I'm not going to say a spiral, because I was, you know, I was emotionally okay, but it threw me into a spiral. Mo. I was spiraling. I didn't know what to do. I had my pick set, and then this wild card came throwing at me. I'm going to just stick with it. Nixon 7. I can't let Mitchell Robinson determine my entire pick at the NBA Finals. Nixon 7. It should just be an unbelievable series. You're going to be here in San Antonio as. As am I. What should we be looking for from you while you're here?
- [58:30]
Mo De Kiel
I'm going to be doing a pregame show on X Live with Alexis Morgan and Zach Harper. We're going to be two hours before tip off on Wednesday, two hours before game two, game three and game four. So I'm going to be on site for the finals for all of that. You know, I'm writing again. I'm on Bleacher Report. Article just dropped today.
- [58:50]
Zach Lowe
Oh, nice.
- [58:51]
Mo De Kiel
Yeah. So literally about the Knicks matchup against Wemby. I think I'm gonna. I might be having something else coming later in the week. And then, of course, double dribble podcast with Jared Dubin. We're going to be recording on Wednesday and do our finals preview. And then we're also going to be doing a. Also check out all the videos I'm putting up on offside. We're having a great time.
- [59:13]
Zach Lowe
We made it Mo, this is the best time of year. I mean, like, we can't table all the trade rumors and free agency stuff because that's part of the league. But they take a backseat now to the reason that we all do this, the reason that all these teams are making those phone calls and trying to make trades and all that is to get here. And two teams have made it. They're two historically monster significant teams in the league. And the historical stakes of this series are so fun, with the Spurs, 12 years removed from their last title, trying to get back to the top again, trying to announce themselves as, oh, we're here already. And we're going to be here for a long time. So long. You kind of changed the lottery rules so that no one can accumulate the talent that we just accumulated. And the Knicks, of course, all the baggage of 53 years, all the fans who have been waiting so long, old people who love the 70 and 73 teams and what they stand for and how they played, and see some of those teams in this team and the way they've moved the ball, all the close calls, all the battles with Jordan that they just couldn't win. Charles Smith, Hakeem blocking, Starks, the whole thing, it's. And then the whole. We don't need to get into it. It's just been a long time. For one of the more beloved and massively popular teams in the league. It's going to be awesome. And, Mo, you're going to be chronicling it all. I will be chronicling it all, too. I can't wait. We have another day tomorrow to warm up, and then it's game time on Wednesday. Mo, Tequil, you're the best. Thanks for helping us out.
- [60:38]
Mo De Kiel
Thank you for having me.
- [60:39]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Look, it can be hard showing how much you love someone, but if you can't say how you feel, just say, let's get some food. Or, hey, takeouts on me. And if you really love them, pick Panda Express for delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine. Whether it's game night or date night, nothing says I love you like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, kung pao chicken and black pepper sirloin steak. Have you eaten yet? Order now. Or is it a Panda Express near you? This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball. But even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about. The busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. ServiceNow's AI specialists tackle that work, requests handled, cases closed, the whole thing done. So you have more time for the work you actually want to do. For me, that's breaking down SGA film whenever I want and then talking about it into a microphone. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com all right, let's bring in one of my favorite guests. It's been too long since we've had him because frankly, his team was so good, it was almost boring. Until it wasn't. Andrew Schlecht from the down to Dunk podcast and the athletic NBA Daily Show. How you doing, bud?
- [61:47]
Andrew Schleck
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Zach.
- [61:50]
Zach Lowe
So the Thunder, your team, your hometown team. Wow, what a season. And then all of a sudden, they ran into. We saw it coming in in December when in the span of 10 days, the spurs flipped the whole season on its head from is this team going to be 74 and 8? And stomped to a second consecutive title to whoa, boy, do they have a problem that they didn't anticipate having and do we now all have a problem that has arrived here much sooner than we thought? And the answer turned out to be yes. The spurs went 8 and 4 against the Thunder overall in 12 games. Seven game series. Epic Western Conference finals. Thrilling, tense game seven in Oklahoma City. No Jalen Williams, no A.J. mitchell. We all know that the Thunder are sent home earlier than anticipated. The Spurs, I'm in San Antonio. Are in the finals. And so the bigger picture question, you were there. They did like a marathon media day. Credit to the Thunder. There's no bullshit media day. There's no like, oh, so and so already went back to his home country. So and so is already gone. So and so doesn't want to talk and skipped out. They all talked. And this sort of big question. And I want you were there for all of it. You know these people all much better than I do. There are. There are two extremes. Extreme. Number one is, hey, seven games, game seven at home without two of our most important players, including our second best overall player. Our third best overall player kind of had a meltdown in front of the entire world. Hopefully that doesn't happen again and we still almost won the series. Yeah, we don't have a great answer for Victor Wembanyama. Spoiler alert. Nobody does. There is no great answer to Victor Wembanyama. Mostly run it back with some changes around the fringes, probably aimed at saving money and reorganizing the cap sheet and all of that. That's one poll. Poll number Two is, oh, fuck. We have now run into a roadblock that we cannot solve. Our third best player did actually have a complete mental meltdown on In Front of the World, and we're actually afraid that he's a little bit broken, particularly in this matchup that we have to solve. Do we have to have a seismic summer of change in which one of our best players actually goes out the door and we go out and we reach for a superstar who maybe fits best better in what we need against Victor Wenyama, a big guy who can put some pressure on the rim, can put some pressure on women. Yama on the rim, on the other end of the floor, maybe Giannis Atentokounmpo. And I say all of that with the caveat is as sexy as this trade talk is, and I think it's worth discussing. It's not just a stupid pie in the sky first take narrative. It's really hard just no matter what deal you're trying to do, it's really hard to make any big seismic trade that doesn't hurt them financially or just helps them like saves them money long term, short term, doesn't make them too much older, doesn't make them any worse now, and doesn't make them too much worse in the future. It's a very hard needle to thread. So which of those two polls, Andrew, are we. Are we thinking the Thunder are going to adhere to?
- [64:52]
Andrew Schleck
I think it's the first one. I, I think when you look at the way they wanted to build this team, they wanted to build it to, to last a long time, probably an unreasonable amount of time because NBA teams just don't stay together that long anymore. I think that they're hoping that this one does. And when they resigned Shea Dub and Chet last summer, I think that that was the, hey, this is our core moving forward. All these guys are signed up long term. This is who we're moving forward with. I don't think they'll deviate from that. You listen to everybody talk yesterday. They were pretty. Everyone was on message, I would say, with what they think about Chat and that when Chat's at their, at his best, the Thunder are at their best. Now you go to the caveat. Chad was not at his best. He wasn't anywhere close to his best. And you look at like the 10 points and 7 rebounds he averaged during the, the series. I think it's more important to look at the seven shot attempts that he got per game in the series, like he just could not find his shot. And we all know that he took two shot attempts in game seven, didn't take a shot attempt after the first quarter. I think that they believe in who Chet is as a person and that they're gonna have to help him get better shots. Some of it is it was the perfect storm for it to be terrible for Chad. One, he's just hasn't been very good against the spurs and Victor Women, Yama. And then two, you take all the creators besides Shay off the court and things just get a lot harder. It was a lot harder for Shay. It was a lot harder for everybody. Even like Alex Caruso was a superhero at times during that series. You could even see the spurs begin to wear him down. And a lot of it was this lack of creation that the Thunder had out there. And when. If you don't have A.J. mitchell and you don't have Jada, the job of everybody offensively is really hard to wear. Like Jared McCain become. He became outrageously important. Like, I don't think the series goes seven without Jared McCain for the Thunder, they just needed more creation. But, yeah, I don't think there's any thought of trying to move on from Chet Holmgren for the Thunder. I think that they look at everything very holistically, whether that's right or wrong. I think that that's how they're looking at it. They're going to have to beat the spurs at some point in the playoffs. But I think that they. They believe that if they were healthy, they would have. And so I don't think that they are looking at Chet as if this is a problem that we can't solve or he's broken or he's the next Ben Simmons or whatever people you want to say about it. I do think that this is somebody who they believe is resilient, has shown to be resilient because he's come back from two pretty bad injuries. He had a foot injury, he had the hip injury. And he's shown that he can be a resilient guy. And so I think that they're. They're leaning on that more than they are thinking about, you know, really changing the roster.
- [67:31]
Zach Lowe
Look, I said this with Bill right after the game, on whatever day that was. I am rooting for continuity across the board. Now. That's not going to be universal. There are going to be changes to the roster, as there are for every team.
- [67:44]
Andrew Schleck
Sure.
- [67:44]
Zach Lowe
Except, I guess, the Thunder after last season. I. And I'm rooting for continuity for a lot of reasons. Number one, as a neutral fan, like, isn't this what we want. Don't we want the core, not all of the. Of a great team, but the core of it to stay together, take some lumps, come back to fight another day? Don't you want instead of doing the reaching for the shiny object and that's not a denigration of Giannis or whoever else you know. There you go. Giannis is a top five player in the NBA, no doubt. Instead of just immediately one setback knee jerk like, well, we got to go get that guy. Don't you want everyone to huddle up and be like, how can we make sure this never happens again, Chet? How can we make sure you're never lost in space like you were in that series again? Don't. Isn't this what we all want? These two teams circling each other with the same core group of characters for the next five years? That's what I want. I think that's what any neutral fan, that's more fun to me than like, oh, okay, they traded Chet and Case and Wallace and two picks and two swaps for Giannis and got seven and a half years older. Got a guy who has been injury prone for like five of the last six playoffs. Got a guy who has minimal to no floor spacing ability. And by the way, how are you going to fit that with Isaiah Hardenstein Stein, who is probably coming back in this scenario? We'll talk about him later. And that's the challenge of a lot of the Chet trades. Because here's the thing with Wemby, you need a lot of things to beat Wemby. That's the, that's what happens when you face an all time great player. I think the Thunder probably need a little bit more outside shooting. All right, that's maybe a need to, to, to address separately, but you need a lot of size and you need size in. You need a diversity of size. And really on paper, the thunderous combination of Hartenstein and Holmgren is like about as good as you can do in terms of a combination of size to combat Wembanyama. Because you have. The first layer is the bulk and the physicality and the toughness of like, I'm going to do my damnedest to just keep you from getting to the rim clean. And the second layer is when you do get to the rim, there's a seven foot one guy with a giant wingspan waiting to at least make your life difficult. Yes, he's going to get posterized. And that Game 7 poster was as vicious and mean and nasty as it gets. But like, that's Ideally you'd like to have all that wrapped up in one guy, but to face Wemby, it's almost better to have it in two guys who can kind of help each other. And that that need for the dual kind of size is one reason I think the Chet as only big man lineups completely disappeared in the conference finals. And I want to talk more about that. And so the challenge you face is you can't really get any smaller if you're trying to tweak your team to fit to, to face wby and if you do get bigger or have a, have a sort of wash in terms of size going out and coming in. And I think that's why Giannis is such an intriguing target because he is big and he can protect the rim. But does that chip away at your shooting to the point that it becomes even more difficult to score in some ways, even though Giannis has a straight line sort of big rim pressure that CH does not have. I, I, I don't think they're going to chase Giannis. I actually probably don't think they should if the price is as high as I think it would be. But these are, these are kind of hard questions I think. And, and they do have to figure something out. And I, and fair or not, it's going to, it's going to center on Chad Holmgren and whatever the hell happened to him in that series. I mean you mentioned the seven shot attempts for gamer or whatever it was the 11 threes for the entire series.
- [71:17]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah.
- [71:18]
Zach Lowe
Is just astounding. He could not find any role on offense at all no matter who he was playing with in the series.
- [71:25]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, that's been part of the struggle with him is, is offensively when you look at Chet's game and why I mentioned the, the creators is that he's been a play finisher almost only and his three point shooting has somehow gotten slower to where the spurs felt so confident and cheating off of him and being able to recover in time to make him just not even attempt a three that they, that was part of their game plan that really worked is that they just took away the three and they could do it while not just like staying glued to him, which became a huge problem for the Thunder. And so to me like speeding up his release, there was even time where like there's no rotation on the ball either as it's heading to the rim from Chet from three. There's just like a lot of issues that have kind of popped up with this three ball which one of the strengths of having Chad Holmgren on your team and presumably him as the lone big out there is that he can stretch the floor and that you can play fast, you can play this style of. You can play this style that's pretty unique. But when he doesn't shoot threes, that's kind of taken away because they don't feel like they really need to worry about him. He's not going to attack a closeout. When you talk about like what is Chet's go to move on offense, I think probably it's the spin move in the lane is probably the thing that people would think about the most. When you play San Antonio, that's gone. And he knew it. Like to his credit, you didn't see him like try that over and over again. Like he knew that wasn't going to work against the spurs, which is when you take away the three, when you take away the rim because Wimby's there. When you take away the spin move, well, what's left? There wasn't just a lot left there for him. And so to me, like priority number one, speed up the three ball. If he can get a faster Release on the 3, he'll be way more effective. And then I just wonder in three or four years if we're talking about Chet having like an actual go to move and then we talk about these like bigger forwards through time. Does. Does Chet develop some kind of like go to mid range shot that it's like no matter what, I feel like I can get to this shot especially. And it wasn't just Wemby that there were smaller guys that would guard him that he just didn't feel comfortable doing anything against. And so does he develop a go to move? Can he develop a three point shot? If he can solve either, either one of those problems, I think, I think things look a little bit better next year for him because a lot of it's just confidence. Like defensively he's got it. Like we all know, we saw it the rest of the playoffs until they played the Spurs. It to me it's all about confidence. And if he has like a little bit more tools to work with next season, I think maybe that confidence is a little bit higher.
- [74:04]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, it was. The defense is consistent. You have to give him credit for that. I do also want to credit the Thunder for the degree of. I don't. Damage control they did on media day. Like, or maybe it was right after the game when Dagnal was like, you know, I still thought his minutes in game seven were pretty good. Like, we didn't get outscored with him on the floors play. But I'm like, okay, maybe not on this one. Maybe you put that one in the bag. And then Chad after the game being like, well, they were really closing out heavy on me. I'm like, I'm not really sure that they were closing out super aggressively on you. But look, here's the thing. I mean, here's the. The. The thing with Wemby is if Hartenstein is on the floor with Chad or even if Jalen Williams is on the floor with Chad, whatever. Look, you get if. But let's start with Hartenstein and why that lineup got played out of the series. And the Dort Hardenstein homegren combo was such a disaster. If. If Victor can guard a traditional rim running center like Chat can attack closeouts, that great. That's great. There's always going to be this guy waiting on the back line to. To. To. To disrupt you. Like, I thought that Chet should have screened and rolled a little bit more, and I'll elaborate on that later, but you're still screening and rolling into the nexus of. Of Wembanyama. I just thought it was really interesting that Chet, as only big man, just was disqualified from the Thunder's rotation against Wemby because that was always their most powerful. Look, put as much shooting and playmaking around Chet as you can. That opens up in theory, and this is the power of Wemby in theory. Now Chet can become the roller, like screen roll, dive into open space, drag Wemby into the pick and roll and. And start to play. Make four on three. But here's the thing about Wemby. He doesn't have to agree to any of that. Even if you put the best offensive lineup you can put with Chad at the five and no other big men on the floor, there's no. The spurs don't have to have Victor. We. I'm a guard, Chet Holmgren, and engage in all the pick and roll shenanigans we just talked about. Kayson Wallace is over in the corner. I'm going to sit here in the corner. Yeah, he's a threatening shooter. Almost got the Thunder right back into game seven. But the end. Caruso, same thing. I'm going to stand over here in the corner, and I'm going to do that because I'm so long and so fast that it's not the same kind of gamble it is for any other big man playing this way that it is for me. And so, yeah, in theory, it sounds like a great idea. Chat at the five, get Victor into the pick and roll, get some four on three action going. And just like normal rules do not apply to when many. That said, when you talk about go to moves, I still think a. An aggressive screen and dive game against this particular team has to be part of it. And just see, like, even if Victor is playing that zone that we're talking about and there's a wing on Chet, you can still screen and slip, slip the switch, get it with a little momentum and at least make Victor start making decisions a little bit in the paint. And there was none of that in this series. In fact, three of the nine lowest volume screen setting games of Chet season, regular season, of playoffs combined were in this series. He just had absolutely no role. And I also think like a Porzingis shot from the nail from the foul line, like a dirt shot has to be part of it too. I think with little tweaks. Unless he's just mentally broken in this matchup, and I don't think that he is from what I know about him. Yeah, I think little tweaks here and there. And you keep Hartenstein and you keep Chet and you keep this sort of try again with this double big formula against Wembanyama. Because I do think that's the best possible solution to him on offense and making it harder for him to just eat at the rim all the time is have that kind of combination of bulk and length in two guys. But it's on Chet to like just get better at every part of his game. And it doesn't have to necessarily be a sea change, but I think it's a bunch of little things have to come together for him.
- [77:56]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, I also think about like a really deep 3. Like Porzingis work has worked that into his game because when Chet's taking threes, it's almost like always like right at the line and there's not really. I think McCain is maybe like the only other guy. Isaiah Joe will take some like, deep threes, but he's somebody that didn't even really play in this series all that much. But if you can have like a really deep three, that's just an. Just something the Thunder just didn't really have at all.
- [78:20]
Zach Lowe
Why do you think, speaking of, of Isaiah Joe, why do you think Chet as solo big man just vanished in this series? Was it a product of the Chet Wemby matchup? Was it a product of two of the best supporting wing players on the team being gone? And so it's just harder to construct small lineups I mean, that said, Wiggins and Joe basically were not even playing in the series. But was it a. Was it. What was it like? Why. I didn't. I, I, I expected it to shrink a little bit. I did. Never expected. Like, we just won't see that look ever in any of these games.
- [78:51]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, I think a lot of it is that J Dub didn't play. I think that. I think that they would have played that lineup had Jada played. And on the other end, Jay Will showed to be like one of their more important players that were left in this series. And so when it came down to it, like, they were going to keep playing Chat. You have to play. I heart. He showed to be very valuable against Wimby. And then Jay Will guarded him primarily in Game seven. Like, he proved to be very valuable. And then it's like, okay, if you're going to go even smaller, I just don't think they had a ton of confidence going even smaller just because the spurs guards. Like, we talk about the Wimby problem. The, the spurs have. There's so many problems to solve with the spurs, but the other one is that their guards are giant. And to the. The Thunder don't have big guards. They have smaller guards that play big, but the spurs have big guards that play big. And it just makes it really tough to, like, really downsize. I think that they downsize probably as much as they could, especially when you play a guy like Jared McCain. Like, you have to cover for him in certain ways. I just don't know that they felt like they had the personnel to do that. Had Dub been healthy, I think that we would have seen it, just because I do think there is some confidence that Dub can go out there and defend Wimby at a reasonable rate, and then you can open things up a little bit there. But without him, he's really kind of like their Swiss army knife, skeleton key, whatever you want to call it, that's. That's what he is to this team. And, and without him, they don't really have that. Cause, I mean, even if you decided to play Dort, who may be like, the only other smaller guy that you'd feel comfortable playing there, he just didn't have a good enough series for you to trust him to be out there.
- [80:28]
Zach Lowe
No, he did not. And I was surprised. Said it before game seven, said it after game seven, that Dagal trotted him out there and. And the damage was limited because he pulled him fast.
- [80:38]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah.
- [80:39]
Zach Lowe
All right, let me go through. If I had to predict, like My vision of what the Thunder will do this off season piece by piece. And you can tell me where you think I'm right, where you think I'm wrong.
- [80:50]
Andrew Schleck
Okay.
- [80:51]
Zach Lowe
I think all three of Chet, J, Dub and Shay are on the team next year. I don't think there's a seismic move with any of the three of them. Just interrupt me whenever you want. Here's the simplest path to saving money and reorganizing the roster a little bit and staying as good as you are now and pretty much as well as you are in the future. And they have I think four total extra draft assets in the first round. Still coming from two from Denver, one from the Clippers, a pick swap from Dallas and then a whole bunch of second rounders and other stuff. Hartenstein, I think you need him. I think you make a deal with him where you decline his team option for 28 and a half million and resign him. Let's say three years 75 million, a little bit of a discount, saves you some money and like every $3 million of savings is like multiplied by a gazillion in tax.
- [81:37]
Andrew Schleck
Yep.
- [81:38]
Zach Lowe
Kenrich Williams, you want to retire here. You're a cultural touchstone. We're going to decline your seven and whatever million dollar team option, resign you for the minimum. Now we've just saved like 20 something, 30 something million dollars in tax money. Yeah. One or both of Joe and Wiggins is traded for second round picks and not much else as a salary dump. And you have McCain and Topich and whoever else ready and waiting in place to take their place. I do think the noise about them, what do they have 12 and 17 in addition to all these other.
- [82:12]
Andrew Schleck
And 37 too.
- [82:13]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I do think the noise about them attempting to move up in the draft and per potentially way up is true. I'm not sure they can get into the top four but I do think some attempt to move up and maybe grab Adamara from Michigan, if I'm saying his name right, I don't even know. Or some other big time player and just sort of refresh in that way. And then the wild card is Dort and I don't know what happens with Dort and they have an $18 million player option on him. Opt in is an option obviously. Just opt him in. Do the same thing with Hartenstein and say hey man, your market is probably the mid level. Do you really like being here? Would you take like a three year, 48 mil 45 million dollar kind of deal at around the mid level or you just add them to the. We're trading you for second round picks. Your usefulness to us has kind of run out with the Caruso Wallace, you know, blah, blah, blah, grouping around him. What do you. What do you. That, that, that. That is my prediction with the Dort thing is the one. I don't know. What. Where am I wrong? Where am I right? What do you see?
- [83:18]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, I don't. I don't think that you're wrong at all. I do think that when you look at guys like Isaiah Joe and Aaron Wiggins, both like super valuable regular season guys, incredible locker room guys, guys that you, you want to have a part of your program, their contracts are really easily moved. I think there will be a lot of teams that would want to have them. And I think that the second round picks is like about right for them. I think a lot of teams could have used these guys. You look across the playoffs at teams that like, lost in round one, around two, like, they would play for those teams.
- [83:48]
Zach Lowe
They're good players on good contracts. And honestly, like, they were so desperate for outside shooting in this series that I was a little surprised Joe didn't have a slightly longer leash. I understand the limitations. Defensively, they gave Wiggins a try. The spurs were like, we're just going to pretend that you are the worst shooter who's ever lived, even though you're not. And he didn't make them pay. They're good players on good contracts for sure.
- [84:11]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, no, I think you're right. And like Kenner staying around makes sense. Like, he's a. He's like a cultural touchstone for them in a lot of ways, and so is Dort. I'm really. I'm a little bit torn on how I feel about what they do with him. And especially yesterday he was asked about the team option and kind of what he thought would happen this summer. And he basically just like wrote a love letter to the Thunder as he's sitting there in front of us. And I even was like, okay, well, your role has diminished this year and, and maybe like the lowest minutes since your rookie season. Your minutes were down in the playoffs, your shot attempts are down, all these things are down. Like, how did you process that? He just talked about how much he loved Mark Degnalt and respects the decision that he made. And he wouldn't be. He's like, I don't even know if I would be the player. I am in the NBA without the Thunder without Mark Degnalt. And I respect their decisions. You know, there was like, no, like, hey, I Understood it, but I didn't like it. It's kind of what I thought I would hear, but he just talked about how much he loved being part of the Thunder and, like, wants to. Wants to stay in okc, which makes sense. I just wonder if, like, you. You do what you said, like, give him a lesser contract and tell him, like, you're going to have a bench roll. Because I do think, like, the. The ascendance of A.J. mitchell is happening. And to me, if I were to.
- [85:32]
Zach Lowe
But before you. Before you go, I want to double down on what you're about to say, because I keep seeing him being, like, tossed into these, like, well, they could throw, like, three first and this guy and AJ Mitchell to move up, and they're like, AJ Mitchell was going to win six man of the year. The league at large could not be any higher on him than they are now. And he has two years and five and a half million dollars thereabouts left on just the contract itself is insanely valuable. And I agreed. If Dort comes back, it's in a. It's in a bench roll like that. That it's time for that now.
- [86:05]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah. I think you can go ahead and put A.J. mitchell in, like, the core four. You want to talk about, like, the top three guys. I think you can put him in the core four. I think he's a player that has. I mean, he hadn't even played 100 games yet, and it's, like, very obvious that he's got it and he's better defensively than they thought, which I think is a huge part of this equation, is that offensively, he's a guy that can get a paint touch whenever he wants. He can score at all three levels. He's tough as nails. But defensively, he's a lot better than anyone thought he would be. It's part of the reason that he slipped to the second round is that he was thought to be just kind of this, you know, dynamic score that, you know, is he. He's a bench player in the NBA. Well, the fact that he can defend and he is as competitive as he is, I think is probably the reason that he's elevated into that core four. Because I. I talked to. Even. I talked to him about it. I've talked to Lou Dort about it, because I just really value how Lou thinks about defense. And I was like, what did you think about AJ when he got here? He was like, he was already good. He was already a good defender. He said he's learning more as he goes, and as he gets more reps with everybody and how is he, as he learns the NBA. But AJ Is a good defender, and so to me, you can add him to that. I think as the Thunder figure out where they want to position themselves in the second apron, I mean, they're undoubtedly going to experience the second apron at some point, whether, like, try to completely dodge it this summer or not, I don't know. But A.J. mitchell is going to be part of that path. I just think, like. And then you talk about him culturally, just as a guy. He. There's nobody that fits, like, the Thunder culture maybe better than him. And so I think that he's like a. A core foundational member of what they're going to do moving forward. Now, the one thing that I do, like, the only, like, hole that I can poke in AJ Mitchell at this point is that he plays a style of basketball that is really hard on his body, which is like, we've seen that over the course of this year, is that he can be a little bit reckless. He can be like a bowling ball all the way to the rim, which is like, part of his skill. But it's also part of the reason that I think that he's gotten hurt, and so he's got to kind of figure that out. But again, he's not played that many NBA games. There was a reason that Mark Degnalt threw him into the game in the NBA Finals last year. Out of nowhere in game one, here comes AJ Mitchell into the rotation. And there was a reason why, because, like, the belief in this guy is sky high. So with that, I do think they can make a lot of different decisions off of that. The only other one that you didn't say is Kayson Wallace. And, like, where do they go with Kayson as far as contract extension talks with him? I think that will be a really interesting one. But, yeah, I could see a world where, like, both Joe and Wiggins are moved on from. You need to find minutes for topic. You need to find a bigger role for AJ Mitchell. You'll have Jared McCain in tow for the whole season. I think that they have the necessary depth and the guys that can fill in, whoever they take at 12 or if they do move up, that guy will move into the rotation too, and then they'll move forward. And the Dort one is. Is a mystery to me because if he. If he is willing to take a lower number, I could see him staying. If he's wanting 20 to 25 million and he feels like he can get that goodbye.
- [89:18]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, and that's why the case, that's why the case in Wallace thing is like it's not that interesting because I think one way or another, the most likely outcome by far is the Thunder are going to get him back on a number that they can swallow. And whether that's an extension now or just say, hey, you're, we're just too far apart. Let's go to restricted free agency next summer and bank on no got gigantic offer sheet is coming for you. Like I think something happens there. What, what I haven't addressed in my seven point plan for the Thunder is I really haven't added outside shooting. And maybe that's a full season of McCain, although his three is up and down. Maybe it's Mitchell and J Dub being healthy. Neither of those guys is like a knockdown, knockdown three point shooter. Dub will look like it now and then. A.J. mitchell was 35% this year. And I do think when they inevitably clash with Wembanyama again, they either need more outside shooting or more rim pressure or a little bit of both. And the rim pressure I think can come from some of the chat screen and dive at least like puncture the paint a little bit even if you're not finishing. And I don't really know how else to get them shooting because of the second apron. And to be clear, I talked with a bunch of cap specialists about this today and yesterday. They're subject to the second apron now, even though the next NBA calendar season has not started yet and they're quote unquote under the tax, the apron restrictions that are going to kick in, go in into effect before July 1st. I don't really know how they're going to do it. I played around with some trades, but it's just they can't. If you're in the second apron, you can't do. You're just in jail. It's very hard to make trades. You can't aggregate salary. You can't take in a dollar more than you send out. You can't acquire a player in a sign and trade. You'd have to get under the second apron to do any of those things. Yeah, what's the, is there a shooting idea solution that's out there? Everyone's going to say Trey Murphy this, Trey Murphy that. I'm like, okay, how. I don't, I don't really see how
- [91:12]
Andrew Schleck
I, I hate to be this guy, but I think it's like going to be more internal development for them and then perhaps they solve some of that through the draft Like, I just don't see any big swings coming when it comes to shooting for them this summer. I think that they, they think that some of their guys are maybe a little bit. I think that they think McCain is better than what he showed this year. I wonder if they could get in a guy like Braden Burry's in the draft if they could get up to nine. You know, he's, he's, he's another one of these like more combo guards, but tough. A guy that like fits Thunder culture. I think he's a really interesting one. A lot of people talk about Yaxel. I don't know how great a shooter he'll be in the NBA. I don't know if he necessarily fits the Thunderculture or not either. So they could go there. But I think it's going to be largely through internal development for these guys. Like again, if Chet can take five threes against the spurs, then you've, you've
- [92:06]
Zach Lowe
solved a lot in a series or in, in one game. What, what are we asking for?
- [92:11]
Andrew Schleck
I'm asking for too much maybe, but I, I think five, five a game. If he. To me, whenever I saw him play for the first year, I thought this is a guy that needs to probably take seven threes a game.
- [92:23]
Zach Lowe
And honestly it's generally, he's generally not that hard to do that. When you're seven foot one and you are often spacing the floor for the dribble pick and rol around you. I, I think I agree with you on the internal improvement thing. One of the things that I think we get so caught up in, like they failed and thus must abandon half of what they stand for as an organization. Sometimes it's smart to do that, sometimes it's not. They only failed by the standards that they kind of set for themselves in the media. Prematurely set for them. It's like oh five, you know, dynasty coming five of the next six championships. Even though history suggests that's very hard. We have now are going to have eight straight years with a new champion this year. And part of their build is they, they built into it is the luxury of being able to fail in, in specific seasons by their standards because they are built for a longer run. And when you are built for a longer window, this is why teams like longer windows better than shorter windows. You can absorb a year from hell injury wise. A year just where things didn't work out and a great player beat you and come back to fight another day and may outcome is different the next year. That said, I just for the purposes of illustration. Can I go through the best chat trades that I could come up with and just you. So we can see how difficult this is?
- [93:46]
Andrew Schleck
Yes.
- [93:47]
Zach Lowe
So I'm throwing the honest one out. We've already discussed it. But the honest one is illustrative because if you're going to trade chat, you need to bring back size somehow. Like, you just cannot go like chat for a guard who can shoot. You're just. If you're concerned about Wemby, you're now too small and too dependent on Hardenstein. So. And again, second April and all that. Where do I want to start? I mean, they're not great.
- [94:16]
Andrew Schleck
That's a great. That's a great intro to the segment.
- [94:19]
Zach Lowe
How about Chet Holmgren to Portland for Donovan Clingan, Jeremy Grant and some subset of first round picks.
- [94:27]
Andrew Schleck
Oh, woof. I don't know how that makes a Thunder better.
- [94:30]
Zach Lowe
No, no, I'm not like. And here's the problem. All the size we're bringing in does not bring the shooting ability that you need to coexist with Hartenstein, who's going to be a core player. So I'm a no on that.
- [94:40]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah.
- [94:41]
Zach Lowe
I tested the waters. I test drove a chat to Brooklyn for Michael Porter Jr. The number six pick in the draft and D Ron Sharp. I just don't think Daron Sharp is like good enough. He's a career back. He's a great. I think to beat Wemby and I talked about this with Mo. Previewing the finals in elite offensive rebounding center is like an absolute must. Like a lob catching offensive rebounding center and like Hartenstein is half of that, but not all of it. But Sharp's just not good enough.
- [95:12]
Andrew Schleck
He's not better than J Will. Like, you got to at least be better than Jay Will.
- [95:15]
Zach Lowe
No, but he's better at that than J Will. He's better. He's better at offensive rebounding. Making Wemby think if I challenge this shot, am I, am I. Is there someone behind me who can punish me? I thought about a. Your problem for my problem. Chet for Jalen Duran swap. Which is not possible because the sign and trade prohibition. How about Chet to Miami for Tyler Hero, K War and a draft asset. I hate it for. I. I hate it for both teams. By the way, I don't like the Chet Bam Mix. I don't like any of it.
- [95:46]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, I don't know that where is necessarily the. The thundery guy that. That you'd want either or Hero. Really? Yeah.
- [95:55]
Zach Lowe
No, I don't like it. But this is the point. And by the way, there are a million three and four team trades we could do that satisfy our all of the checklist items that we are trying for here. I tried to build a trade around Chet Holmgren for Brandon Miller because I actually think that's somewhat interesting for both teams and. But I'm like, again, I need size. And so like, okay, I'll ask for Kalkbrenner. Is like Kalkbrenner ready to play against Victor Wembanyama in the playoffs next year? He's not like is is. I tried, I tried with Dallas with like Gafford plus some like good like PJ Washington types or throw Clay in if you want shooting plus the number nine pick in the draft. And Dallas can be like, we have Chet and Cooper flag. We're doing Luca Porzingis 2.0 and the Thunder get another draft pick to try and bundle and move up. I just, again, I just don't know if Gafford is good enough. He's a great offensive rebounder, lob catcher. But like we're talking about Victor Wembanyama and I, I like New Orleans for Trey Murphy III and Yves Missy. No, miss me on that. I can't do it. I can't. I can't find any. So here's. I'll throw a couple others at you that are interesting. Would you do. Forget chat. We keep chat. Would you do J Dub for Evan Mobley challenge trade? Oh, no.
- [97:14]
Andrew Schleck
I think that like how he's the, he's the skeleton key. He's like, he's so dynamic. I mean the guy scored 40 in the finals. You know, I just don't think. I know he's injured and it was a bummer that he couldn't play. But sometimes like we can forget just how good guys are when they don't play. And I think that Dub goes on that list. Like he had a. He had an awful year health wise. He dealt with the wrist early on, had four hamstring injuries. It was a bad year for him. But if he gets it together, I think that, you know, if, if you go, if you talk about this at the end of last season, there'd just be like no way you would ever consider that. So I'll say no.
- [97:52]
Zach Lowe
I'm also a no. I think it's interesting. Would you do a chat for Alper and Shengun challenge trade? And I only mentioned Sengun because the salaries are similar, the size element is satisfied and Sengun does seem to be the opposite of chat in just this One specific thing. He loves going into Victor Wembanyama's face and chest and stomach. And, like, he legitimately seems offended by the idea that people think Victor Wenyama can do anything to his crazy, pivoty, physical under the rim game. And, like, kind of goes at him a little bit.
- [98:26]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah.
- [98:26]
Zach Lowe
Again, hasn't proven the range you need to exist with Hartenstein, but has a little bit of the DHO passing. Like, sometimes a three point shot looks good. I think. I think it's just too seismic of a change for either team to really contemplate, but it is, like, not uninteresting.
- [98:41]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah. Maybe we could do like a brain swap between the two of them because I don't know that I love the. The skill set swap there that you're having between those two guys.
- [98:51]
Zach Lowe
The rim protection.
- [98:52]
Andrew Schleck
It'd be a hilarious trade because the Thunder. I mean, he wore a Thunder hat on draft night and the Thunder traded him for three.
- [98:59]
Zach Lowe
I forgot about that. But he's the Thunder. He's the Thunderer. That wasn't.
- [99:03]
Andrew Schleck
Yes. And so it would be really funny if somehow they traded the guy who. I think. I mean, the Thunder were after Chad in a big way. And also the. On draft night, the Thunder were like, we. We have the chance to draft Sengun. I think that they thought he would be a good player, but they'd rather have the picks. And so it would be really funny if that happened. But I'm a no on that one, too.
- [99:24]
Zach Lowe
They love. But they also loved Mobley at the draft. Like, that's not 100, which is why I pitch you that trade. Yep. Yeah. I don't. I don't love any of those trades. And I think the Thunder are fine. Yes. Wembanyama ate their lunch a little bit in the series. It went seven games despite. Both teams are dealing with injuries. Right. Fox and Harper definitely trended up by the end of it. The Thunder are still pretty young. They're still going to be the number one or number two defense in the NBA. Yeah. Wemby's a matchup problem. There's no way. There's no person for whom they're not a matchup problem. Giannis would address some things, complicate other things, and I just think trading Chet coming off the lowest moment of his career is like, Milwaukee's going to demand a whole lot of other stuff.
- [100:12]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah.
- [100:13]
Zach Lowe
I don't really. I don't. I don't see. I would be pretty surprised if they went that route. So. You know what? Tough. Tough. Whatever. You lost in seven Games in the conference finals. I, I let. Let run it back, make some fringe changes. I think there's enough here. We could be a year from now. We could be. I could be in Oklahoma City for game one of the NBA Finals. Like, it's. That's. That's wildly on the table.
- [100:35]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah. And, and they have young guys too, that they believe will develop in this Thunder system. Topic being one of them, like, topic is a guy that they. There's a lot of like, internal belief in this guy and like, what he could become. And when we talk about them needing extra creation, they needed a guy like that. He was obviously not ready for this moment. I'm curious what happens with him and how they find minutes for him. You know, he's entering year three, so he'll be extension eligible this time next year, which is weird to think about. But he's a guy too, that they took at 12, that there's a high belief in. He's gone through a lot since he's gotten to the league. He came into the league with the acl hit testicular cancer. I mean, the last time I saw him in the locker room, you could still see his port scar from, from chemo. Like, he's, he's gone through a lot. And so I do think that he's somebody too, that I don't. I don't know that he like, totally fits the way the Thunder play, but he could be like a super dynamic, like, good guy on the drive, great passer. When you talked about like getting Chet in the pick and roll, I was kind of imagining him a little bit as one of the guys that if this is like a bench unit, perhaps he could be a guy that could help kind of lead that a little bit because he. I think he will be the best passer on the team once he kind of gets integrated. So there, there's a lot of things that will happen with this team. They're not going to be the big splashy things. May maybe on draft night there is. I do think that that's a possibility that they move up. But if we're talking about like, trading for players that like, really change the Thunder, I don't think that that's where we're headed.
- [102:08]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, draft night's going to be interesting for the Thunder, for the, for the Bucks, for lots of different teams in the top four, how that is ordered, we have a lot of time to get in to. To that with Jay. Kyle Mann, our guy at the ringer, Andrew Schleck, you're the man like delightful podcast presence grinding all the time down in Oklahoma City. Who knows, maybe a year from now we'll be we'll grab a beer at something in Bricktown or something for Game one of the NBA Finals. Thanks, bud.
- [102:36]
Andrew Schleck
Thank you.
- [102:39]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Low Show. Be back later this week, including right after Game 1 of the NBA Finals. Hopefully that's up Thursday morning. Who will be up 1 0? We'll see. Thanks to Mo De Kiel, thanks to Andrew select, thanks to Jonathan, Michael, Jack and Oscar all on production. And thanks as always to you all for listening to and or watching. This is Zach glowshaw. See you soon, 21 or over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President, D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland Hope is here. It visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5505, oh for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.