A Look at the Lakers With Dan Woike, Plus Key Restricted Free Agents and More With Nekias Duncan

Summary

The Zach Lowe Show – July 14, 2025 Episode: A Look at the Lakers With Dan Woike, Plus Key Restricted Free Agents and More With Nikias Duncan

Hosted by Zach Lowe and featuring guests Dan Woike from The Athletic and Nikias Duncan, this episode offers an in-depth analysis of the current NBA landscape, focusing on the Los Angeles Lakers' future, key restricted free agents, and a comprehensive deep dive into the Detroit Pistons.

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Live from Las Vegas Summer League

The episode kicks off with Zach Lowe welcoming listeners to Las Vegas, where the summer league action is in full swing. Dan Woike, recently transitioned from the LA Times to The Athletic, brings his extensive knowledge of LA basketball, particularly the Clippers and Lakers. Nikias Duncan joins to discuss restricted free agents and their implications across the league.

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LeBron James and the Lakers' Uncertain Future

A significant portion of the discussion centers on LeBron James’ decision to opt into his player option for $52.6 million, rather than pursuing a contract extension with the Los Angeles Lakers. Dan Woike highlights the ambiguity surrounding LeBron’s intentions:

"That opt-in and combined with that statement amount to a message of I want my money, but I kind of don't really want to be on the Lakers anymore if I can find a better situation to win now." (06:10)

Nikias Duncan adds insights into the strained relationship between LeBron and the Lakers’ front office, suggesting a possible desire for both financial and situational flexibility:

"I think there's fire here. There's smoke. There's something real going on here." (07:19)

The conversation delves into the Lakers' strategy of maintaining flexibility to accommodate younger stars like Luka Doncic, juxtaposed against LeBron’s declining age and performance concerns. Duncan emphasizes the complexity of balancing legacy with team dynamics:

"LeBron James wants to keep playing basketball. And those two things don't go together." (17:25)

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Key Restricted Free Agents: Josh Giddy, Jonathan Kuminga, Cam Thomas, Quentin Grimes

Transitioning to restricted free agency, Nikias Duncan provides an overview of several high-profile restricted free agents who are seemingly trapped due to limited cap space and leverage. The discussion covers:

• Josh Giddy: Evaluated for his improved aggression and physicality, Duncan questions the Chicago Bulls' direction and ceiling with Giddy.

"Josh Giddy and you have some interesting situations... What do we make of him?" (41:23)

• Jonathan Kuminga: Highlighted as a potential transformative player for the Philadelphia 76ers, Kuminga’s role and fit within the team’s structure are scrutinized.

• Cam Thomas: Analyzing his scoring prowess and playmaking growth, Duncan and Woike debate Thomas's sustainability as a key player, noting his high turnover rate and dependence on defensive improvements.

"He shows some straight line drive kind of driving to the rim where he's got some speed, particularly going left." (45:27)

• Quentin Grimes: Discussed as a valuable asset for the Sixers, Grimes’s late-season performance and his potential role in a healthier team setup are examined.

"It felt like a player getting to stretch his wings and proving yeah, I can do some stuff that people maybe didn't think I could do." (44:01)

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Detroit Pistons: An Under-the-Radar Team in Focus

The episode concludes with a deep dive into the Detroit Pistons, a team often overlooked but showing promising developments. Duncan and Woike explore the Pistons' offseason moves, highlighting the acquisition and development of young talents like Jaden Ivey and Asar Thompson. They assess the team’s potential to navigate the competitive landscape of the Eastern Conference.

"If you get to that class, like from a talent perspective, it wouldn't surprise me." (87:24)

Key points include:

• Jaden Ivey: Positioned as a cornerstone for Detroit’s future, Ivey’s health and performance are pivotal for the Pistons’ success.

• Asar Thompson: Discussed as a defensive stalwart with offensive potential, Thompson’s growth is deemed essential.

• Team Strategy: Emphasis on flexibility and the ability to adapt to playoff demands, ensuring the Pistons remain competitive.

"They have the picks, they have the young players that they're not using. You know, I'm sure they don't want to trade Nikola Tovich, but like if they had to, they could..." (14:51)

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Trade Speculations and Team Building Strategies

Throughout the episode, hosts and guests engage in speculative discussions about potential trades and team-building strategies. From pondering hypothetical moves involving star players like Miles Turner to assessing the feasibility of current contracts and their impact on team flexibility, the conversation offers a nuanced view of the NBA’s intricate trade ecosystem.

"Players get worse as they get older. Their bodies break down, they're less reliable." (69:15)

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Concluding Insights

As the episode wraps up, Zach Lowe and his guests reflect on the dynamic and often unpredictable nature of the NBA. They underline the importance of adaptability for teams like the Lakers and Pistons, while also highlighting the critical role of player health and team chemistry in shaping future outcomes.

"If he's here, he's going to go to the Lakers and they'll all figure it out together." (36:37)

The episode provides listeners with a comprehensive analysis of current NBA trends, offering expert opinions and highlighting pivotal areas that could influence the upcoming season.

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Notable Quotes:

• "That opt-in and combined with that statement amount to a message of I want my money, but I kind of don't really want to be on the Lakers anymore if I can find a better situation to win now." – Dan Woike (06:10)

• "LeBron James wants to keep playing basketball. And those two things don't go together." – Nikias Duncan (17:25)

• "It feels like we're in this in between purgatory, just hoping for a miracle." – Dan Woike (57:16)

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This episode of The Zach Lowe Show offers an insightful exploration of key NBA narratives, blending expert analysis with engaging discussions to keep fans informed and intrigued.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

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[Zach Lowe]

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[Nikias Duncan]

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[Dan Woike]

All right, coming up on the Zach Lowe show, live from Las Vegas, it's summer league. We're going to talk about a whole lot of stuff. We have Dan Woicke from the Athletic who knows LA basketball, Clippers and Lakers better than anyone. We're going to talk about the LeBron situation, Oklahoma City's recent contract extensions with J Dub and Chet looming over the entire Western Conference where the Lakers stack up relative to the best teams in the West. And then the Kyus Duncan. Yeah, he's back from the dunker spot. We're going to talk about restricted free agency and the big high profile guys who seem to be stuck. Josh Giddy, Jonathan Kaminga, Cam Thomas, Quentin Grimes. How do we project the Sixers to be this year? How can anyone project the Sixers to be this year? Then we have a deep dive on the Detroit Pistons. They're going to try to pick a team, kind of under the radar team to do something like that on every episode until we close up shop for vacation and the dead times of the summer today is the Pistons. Did they get better? Did they get worse? Where do they project next season? How good is A Sar Thompson going to be? Why is Jaden Ivey one of my most intriguing players in the league, if not the most intriguing player in the east next year we got all that coming up on the Zach Low Show. Hope you enjoy. Welcome to the Zach Low show live from an undisclosed hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada as beautiful as ever? I love Las Vegas completely unironically. Dan Woi from the Athletic. Not the LA Times anymore, the Athletic. How are you sir?

[Nikias Duncan]

I also unironically love Vegas.

[Dan Woike]

I'm.

[Nikias Duncan]

I may like Zach, you Know me. I'm. I'm a. I'm a chatter. I like. I like to. To rub elbows with people. There. There is stuff everywhere. This. The city is full of stuff.

[Dan Woike]

Did you go to the Backstreet Boys yet? Everyone's going to the Backstreet Boys at the Sphere. Everyone. Everyone. The whole NBA has been at the Backstreet Boys.

[Nikias Duncan]

I. I was. I was out with people after the show. The last two nights, I have not gone.

[Dan Woike]

Were they dressed. Were they dressed in all white? Because that's the thing to do, apparently.

[Nikias Duncan]

One was. One was an all white. And as soon as I saw him, I was like, I know what you did today. Like, yeah, you have to wear all white. Would you. What's your price point for going to see the Backstreet Boys at the sphere?

[Dan Woike]

$1. I'm not. It's no. Zero interest.

[Nikias Duncan]

Have you been to the Sphere?

[Dan Woike]

Free, Free, free. No, I've not been to the Sphere. I would like to go to the Sphere to see another musical act. I mean, I don't mind the Backstreet Boys. I'm just. I assume it's like 500 just to get in the door at the Sphere for anything.

[Nikias Duncan]

It was like 250 bucks.

[Dan Woike]

No, out.

[Zach Lowe]

Out.

[Dan Woike]

No, no, thank you.

[Nikias Duncan]

I had. So there were some discussions in one text thread with some sources like, should we go to the Backstreet Boys? And I got to send my wife a text message that said, can I go see the Backstreet Boys for $250 a sentence? I never thought I would. Whatever, type. And she just responded with no, period, no discussion.

[Dan Woike]

Like, wow, you have to run that by.

[Nikias Duncan]

No, it was more like a. You know, it's one of those things. I know it sounds like she micromanages my finances. No, it was one of those things where, you know, you're out in the world and she's at home with the kids and they're being difficult, and there's stuff like that. Like, I try to minimize the good times as much as possible.

[Dan Woike]

So you just go to the Backstreet Boys concert and don't mention it. That's all.

[Nikias Duncan]

How do you keep a secret like that, Zach?

[Dan Woike]

Well, you mentioned it later.

[Nikias Duncan]

You gotta hold that.

[Zach Lowe]

And.

[Nikias Duncan]

And you've gotta.

[Dan Woike]

You mentioned it after the fact. You mentioned it after the fact. No, I don't. I'm not putting a Backstreet Boys concert on Instagram, but I'm certainly not dressing in all white. And my price point is $1. I bid $1 for the worst seat in the house at The Backstreet Boy. So I think. Are they done now?

[Nikias Duncan]

Yes. I. I do not believe. I believe they are. They like reconvene next weekend. They're done. There's no. You'll have to find some other entertainment during the week.

[Dan Woike]

So I will. I will pay $1 for that. I will gladly go drop an ungodly sum of money to go to Top Golf Vegas with some buddies. Like, I will. We'll throw it out. Gives chicken fingers fries, beer and Top Golf. Looking at the strip. I will throw down for that 10 times out of 10 over the freaking Backstreet Boys, who again are fine and seem to be completely comfortable semi making fun of like peak Backstreet Boys content here. There's a little irony in there, in on the joke.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yeah, I think so.

[Dan Woike]

All right, enough. Enough.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yes. Let's move on. Let's move on.

[Dan Woike]

So like it or not, everybody, the talk of The NBA remains LeBron James, despite he apparently Dave McMenamin asked him to come on I saw this on the ESPN Summer League broadcast and talk about his future. And he said, I don't have anything to talk about made there or something to that effect. I was actually. I could think of. I could think of some things to talk about because when you opt in to a player option for 52.6 million with nothing out ahead of it for the first time in your career, no other option, no extra year, no nothing really.

[Zach Lowe]

And.

[Dan Woike]

And you have your agent release a statement as not even cryptic as Rich Paul's statement was. And I'm not going to reread the whole thing. Everyone's seen it by now about different timetables and Luca. And we understand the challenges in this. And that I said already, that was not passive aggressive. That was aggressive aggressive. That was like, oh, okay, and what, 10 days, two weeks or something have passed since then? Nothing has happened. There have been no real credible trade rumblings of any kind that I know of, at least to you.

[Nikias Duncan]

Correct?

[Dan Woike]

No, there have been no buyout rumblings of any kind because people still don't understand why the Lakers would even engage in that.

[Zach Lowe]

And.

[Dan Woike]

But there has also been nothing to change my mind and the minds of a lot of people around the NBA that. That opt in and combined with that statement amount to a message of I want my money, but I kind of don't really want to be on the Lakers anymore if I can find a better situation to win now. And something has fractured with my relationship with the team. Maybe it's extension talks that didn't happen or go Anywhere, whatever. Despite the fact that they've catered to clutch across the board before the Luca trade, despite the fact that they drafted his son. And yeah, you get Luca, you reorient your franchise around the guy who's 26 years old and not the guy who's 40 years old. Tough, Tough. You know what? But I. I still think there's. There's fire here. There's fire, there's smoke. There's something real going on here.

[Nikias Duncan]

Smoldering. There's real smoldering.

[Zach Lowe]

You.

[Dan Woike]

You. I wanted to have you on because you watched his appearance at summer league to see who he was talking to. Where did he sit? What was the interaction? Like, what. What's actually happening here? Dan, this is your world. Nobody knows LA basketball, Clippers and Lakers better than Dan.

[Nikias Duncan]

So, you know, we. The summer league, like, seating arrangement thing with Lakers, like, has, like, some real history. This was The Russell Westbrook, LeBron James when, like, they were on different pages and, like, didn't interact at all during summer league. And, like, turns out, hey, guess what? That relationship was not in a good place. And so I wanted to just kind of see, like, you know, was it. Was it going to be awkward? Was there, you know, was he purposefully distancing himself from the organization? You know, and, like, little things, right? Like the Lakers, like, posting a photo of him there on social media, like, admits to, like, them at least acknowledging, like, this guy is on our team.

[Dan Woike]

Which they did not acknowledge when he opted in.

[Nikias Duncan]

And, like, you know, and you talk to people about that and they say, well, like, yeah, I mean, we acknowledge it when he signed the contract, right? Like, and. And, like, it's. It's all of this stuff.

[Dan Woike]

People tweet happy birthday to the 17th best player on the team. They tweet, thank you for your contributions. Tweet, yes, to a guy who didn't really do anything for your team. So I don't want to hear any of that.

[Nikias Duncan]

I just think, like, okay, so I. I think, like, there. And, you know, in some ways, like, it feels like there is, like, an attention, like, cold war that's, like, happening, like. Or maybe it's not even that cold, right? Where there's. There's, like, these microaggressions and all this different stuff between the two sides. I. I mean, I would say, like, you know, it was pretty normal. Like, he was cheering for the Lakers last night, like, during that game. Like, you know, his son also plays for the Lakers, so it makes sense. Like, that was the lens in which he was watching the game I was sitting right behind him. He would, you know, coaches would come up and talk to him. Nate McMillan was there and spoke to him. Greg St. Jean sat with him for almost a quarter and, and they were talking, you know, I think maybe even a more telltale sign in terms of like Laker hierarchy and stuff like that. Was that the prediction previous game, you know, Savannah was sitting next to Linda Rambis, which is like this is what, you know, what the Lakers do really, really well is they have like personal touch with their stars. Generally speaking. It's, it's the direct line from ownership to, to the most important players has always been a thing that people have really valued with what they do and, and that it's stuff like that. So it's all looked sort of of normal. But like Zach, like you walk through the stands, you go sit in the scout section or something like that and it's all anybody talks about is. And what's crazy though is, is that as you talk about it, you, you try to come up with an answer and every answer just like produces more questions for me. Right? Like if it's a trade, like then the next question is where, you know, and, and I've reported it. The Lakers don't want to take on money beyond the season. I think Brian windhorse referred to LeBron James as an expiring contract at some point. I think that is their preference. Right.

[Dan Woike]

So you don't have to report that he is, he's being treated as. He is an expiring country.

[Nikias Duncan]

He's an expiring contract. So they don't want to turn that expiring contract into longer term money. Good luck trading in the like who, who is $54 million of, of expiring money that the Lakers could, could take in in a trade. Like where is that?

[Dan Woike]

Well, but see, like I can't. That can't be the hard stance if. Because there's also an option where you take on money beyond the season for players that you actually want on your team. You do your free agency spending via trade.

[Nikias Duncan]

But so the way that I've kind of like what I've been able to kind of gather is that like I do think that certainly like the Lakers and the way that Rob Plink has operated always has been like, you know, big game hunting, right? It's been a big game hunter type of situation, both in positive and to their detriment.

[Dan Woike]

What is the luca? Is the LUCA trade like a moose just runs like runs into your house and says I want to live here.

[Nikias Duncan]

Now it's a hip hop.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a hip.

[Nikias Duncan]

It's a hippopotamus. Rolls up and it just sits down and it says, like, I'm here now. Yeah, I'm a big elk that just like, pops his head in is like, I'm here. I've been hunted. There wasn't.

[Dan Woike]

Somebody brings him over. So here's a beautiful elk. Would you like this? This is the best elk I had. It's like.

[Nikias Duncan]

It's like going fishing in the, in like the, the freezer section or like the refrigerator section. You just pick up the bass. It's right there for you. Okay.

[Dan Woike]

Sorry. Big game hunting.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yeah. So, I mean, it seems like that is, like, that is the plan now. I mean, of course, you could construct a trade in which, like, you could bring in players that you think fit with Luka that do that. Now, the X factor and all this again, is that that trade package has to come from a destination that LeBron James wants to play at. Has a no trade clause, too. And I also, like, tend to think that, you know, knowing what I know about LeBron James, like, he's going to want that trade to, to look a certain way to, to, like, you know, to. To be. To be.

[Dan Woike]

Well, let's, let's represent.

[Nikias Duncan]

To represent the value that, that he still has. Right. So it's a, It's a weird spot.

[Dan Woike]

Well, let's even slow down before we start imagining that there are two questions here.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yep.

[Dan Woike]

Beyond, you know, what kind of money to take back in this. There are two. There are two questions that I frankly don't know for sure that I know the answers to. What do the Lakers want And what does LeBron want? So, like, start with that. Like, what's, what do the Lakers.

[Nikias Duncan]

Actually, I can answer the first. I can answer the first one. I think the Lakers want flexibility. Okay. And there isn't flexibility, or at least in their mind, they don't view a, a situation where you've got Luka Doncic hopefully signing this big extension this summer. You have LeBron James still playing at such a good level. Right. But all NBA last year, still 41 years old or will turn 41 years old this year. I think they're, they're like the commitment of, of money and resources to a player at that age while you're still, like, on the clock with a younger star is a little scary to them. And then you have Austin Reeves, who you have to figure out what you're going to do with him next summer, too. I think one of the things with, like, Being in a position to be hyper aggressive next summer is, you know, Austin Reeves's cap hold is like going to be like $20 million. Like, it's, it's, it's little like relatively speaking. And I think that's your one chance before that number goes up, assuming you resign him, you know, for what he's going to get. So it's like, I, I, I think it's, they want to be nimble, you know. Now what's crazy about this or what's hard about this is like, Zach, like, even if it all goes to plan, do they have the assets to like really maximize that flexibility? You know, like, they would have the space on draft night. They could trade their 2026 draft pick. They can trade 2031 and 2033, but that's in swaps. They have one second round pick. You know, their young players don't have a lot of value around the league, I think, and it's a piece I've been kind of working on while I've been here is like, sort of like, like, what's going on with Dalton Connect?

[Dan Woike]

You know, we were joking over dinner last night. Remember that 72 hour news window where it was like to steal the draft? All these teams screwed up. What a genius move. LeBron was scouting him in college and knew all along. And then it's like, wait, he's on the Hornets. Wait, he never plays anymore even when he's on our team. Maybe he wasn't to steal the draft.

[Nikias Duncan]

I may or may not said that he was the fourth best player on the Laker roster at one point in time last season. I was incorrect and I think so, like, trying to, like, you know what, what does that flexibility do for you? And like, is LeBron James your best asset then? And like, is it worth taking on, you know, more money and different things like that? I think though, they want flexibility. Now the question about, like, now what does LeBron James want? Some version of like, this is me just doing a little armchair psychology with him. I mean, some version of, I mean, I think he wants a combination of stability and options. Like, look at the free agency landscape right now, Zach. Right with, you know, in a world in which hard caps now functionally exist, you know, you've got like the warriors and the Bulls and the Nets, to a degree, telling the rest of like, go get the money, go get it. And it's not there. You know, you send LeBron James into unrestricted free agency because go get it.

[Zach Lowe]

Like what?

[Nikias Duncan]

Like, what's the number? You know, and you would think like it would produce, but would. Would that $55 million appear again from one of the places he wants to play? And, and I think that is, like I said, I think there is an element of. That's not having that level of control. The Lakers make the most sense for him, and he is an expiring contract with that organization. So I, I think a lot of this. And by the way, the other to your point about what LeBron James wants, I think there was probably a time where people thought that with some level of not certainty, but like probability that this was going to be his last season. I don't know that that's true anymore. I mean, I. It seems like he's got a lot left. So what does that even look like? And if you want flexibility, not knowing where the second best player, like he could play one more year. I mean, Sham Charani has said this one year, two year or three years, like that's Sean's is not making up those numbers like that that is being floated. LeBron said to us in a press conference yesterday, you could play for five more. You know, and it's. It's just, I feel like, I do feel like that's what's butting heads is that the Lakers want to be flexible and LeBron James wants to keep playing basketball. And those two things don't go together.

[Dan Woike]

You said something very interesting about, you know, he'll care what the trade looks like.

[Nikias Duncan]

I think so.

[Dan Woike]

And we saw that with Durant going to Brooklyn, right. Like there was some politicking about, you know, what has to go back to Golden State in the sign and trade to make it to. To make it look better optically. And I said my armchair psychology was on this subject was, you know, he's talked a little bit. LeBron has out of both sides of his mouth about rings and had the importance of rings. He's derided rings culture with Steve Nash on their podcast. But he's also talked earlier in his career with Lee Jenkins in sports literature about chasing the ghost of Michael Jordan, that the ghost has six rings and how many rings do I need to get to before I'm going, you know, the goat or whatever? And my armchair psychology was, if he wanted the freedom to pick a team that fits with his. His mentality this year in the way that Rich Paul's statement indicated, like a team that's all in to win right now and on a. On a timetable that's LeBron's and not Lucas, well, he could have just opted out of his contract and sign anywhere he wanted for any amount of money. And I, my armchair psychology was, I wonder if there's part of him that's like, if I go to Cleveland on the minimum and we win a ring, like, is that gonna be. Am I, Is it gonna be like, well, you kind of rigged it. You know, it's. Is it, Is it like, is it, quote, unquote, as valuable a ring? I don't know. I just don't know the answer to these questions. In terms of what does he want? I know what, he could have gone anywhere he wanted to had he opted out. And when he opted in, he surrendered a lot of control of this process. Not all of it because of the no trade clause, but he surrendered a lot of it.

[Nikias Duncan]

But, but Zach. And I think you're right about that. And I mean, I think, like, I don't know for sure that I've ever heard him like, talk about like the Wizards Jordan era. But like, I mean, the argument for LeBron James, right, if you're having this conversation, this barbershop conversation, is that like that era hasn't happened, right? Like that. That he's still an all NBA player. Like, I think Doc Rivers has said, like, you know, Michael Jordan's the best player to ever play. LeBron James had the best career.

[Zach Lowe]

Career.

[Nikias Duncan]

The greatest career, I think is like, you know, and it's a lot. It's a longevity based argument for LeBron James, a sustained greatness. I think it's, it's interesting. You know, you talk about opting out. Like, you're right, he could have gone, he could have like full on. Like another, another person that we've heard LeBron James talk about is Tom Brady. Like, I've heard him talk about Tom Brady and longevity and different things like that. And Tom Brady took less money to go play quarterback for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, wanted to kind of run its course in New England and won a Super Bowl. LeBron James also never said he wants to take less money after he did in Miami. And he hasn't like in any real, real way. Like, he took a little bit less on this last deal to get to give the Lakers some room under the second apron. And I think that generally speaking, the way that NBA players, you know, derive their value, right, is like through like reputation and salary. Like, that is like, there's a reason we all run around saying max player. Like, I mean, it's like an actual designation.

[Dan Woike]

Like deandre Ayton said, I'm a max player. You can't ever take that away. From me, baby.

[Nikias Duncan]

And it's like, you know, and that. And that's what it is. It's a sign of respect. So it, it's, it's really fascinating. I, I generally believe, Zach, that the most. What makes the most sense is for LeBron James to play on the Lakers this year. Like, I think that is the path of least resistance in a lot of ways. I think he has had opportunities to leave Los Angeles, and he has not through all different kinds of eras and iterations of this basketball team. I think he wants to be on the Lakers. I think he wants a competitive team. You know, I think he would love to win a championship, but I also think that ultimately, right, like, night and night out competition at $54 million in a place his family is happy, like, that has value. There's a bunch of stuff. I play the two. He's also been there a really long time, and he's kind of an itchy guy. Like, I think, like, he has sort of a little bit of a wandering eye when it comes to this stuff, and maybe there's an element of that in play where it's just like, I don't know if he's just sort of bored with going to work at the same place a little bit. I don't know. This all would be great stuff to.

[Zach Lowe]

Talk to, but he doesn't want to talk.

[Nikias Duncan]

Like, and the vacuum is just breath. Like, the vacuum in the silence just allows for the.

[Dan Woike]

Well, and you just, you can't. You, you can't release that statement, which I like. Look, I don't know if LeBron knew exactly what Rich Paul was going to say, but obviously, like, they. There had to have been some communication about how are we going to handle this? And then be like, well, why is everyone asking me about this? I don't want to talk about it. You know, there's nothing to talk about here.

[Nikias Duncan]

What if it's just. I mean, would you think it's not. I mean, again, like, if the notion was we want to keep future flexibility to. If the messaging from the Lakers, LeBron James was, is like, we want to keep future flexibility and build around Luka Doncic, you know, that does sort of sound like you're, like, not going to get better this year. And, like, maybe it's a reminder to, like, like, that's not going to work for me, boss. Like, I want my money, but that's not going to work for me.

[Dan Woike]

I did my Lakers deep dive already. People can go back and listen to it. A couple episodes ago on Ayton I'm actually like sort of optimistic that Ayton will work with the Lakers to what that looks like. I don't think it's going to be a home run. There's definitely going to be periods where his effort lacking and where he clashes with JJ and all that. But I think there's a universe in which he does enough offensively and defensively, particularly with Luke and LeBron making everybody look much better than they are offensively that I think that can work. I just think you look at what Houston did, what Denver did and I think Valentunas is going to end up playing for the Nuggets unless something surprising happens. And what Oklahoma City did retaining Chad Holmgren and Jello and by the way I can I've heard from people who have seen the contract, the Chet Holmgren contract is just a straight 25% max across the board. There's no escalators in it that I know of anything like that. And J Dub I think will have the escalators in it and you know, look like people are like man, are we just, are we just doomed with Oklahoma City set up the where they're set up and we know they're going to have to navigate. I've talked about this.

[Nikias Duncan]

They're going to have and San Antonio people are scared. I mean like there is like also like the Wembanyama storm.

[Dan Woike]

Sure.

[Nikias Duncan]

That is just like, like I don't know when that's going to hit but it is going to hit.

[Dan Woike]

Yeah. But I mean the Oklahoma City thing, like they're definitely we've, we've done it to death. They're definitely as well set up as you could possibly be to navigate the second apron and the repeater tax, which is I think the real boogeyman for them is the repeater tax in 2930 giving 85 to 90% of their cap to three guys and they'll figure out a way to get off of guys and consolidate picks and blah blah blah and replace guys with cheaper guys and well, it's still going to get extremely expensive. Or is the NBA doomed? You know, it's hard to win multiple championships in the NBA. The odds are the Thunder will get 1, 2 somewhere down the line. But like someone's going to get hurt. They'll have bad luck here, there. But that's the bar. They're the bar. And the Lakers just aren't good enough right now, I don't think to clear that bar to clear other bars leading up to. It's just hard to imagine winning two to three playoff series in the Western Conference, as Kurt currently constructed, especially after.

[Nikias Duncan]

They lost the way they lost last year in the playoffs.

[Dan Woike]

But like now LeBron was injured, right? And Luca was never quite himself.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yeah, Austin Reeves was injured in that series. LeBron was hurt. Luca was definitely not himself. And they decided they had zero center play right. In that series.

[Dan Woike]

So I forgot they played the whole lineup there. That. What game of the series was that? Game four. I think they played the whore.

[Zach Lowe]

The whole.

[Dan Woike]

The same lineup the whole half.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yeah. So I think like that was another part of this. That this whole thing that I've kind of felt and look and I get when you lose in the playoffs, like, you know, you ask these big questions. The Lakers were really good last year, Zach. That was a good basketball.

[Dan Woike]

Not only that, I mean, Luca. Luca has already shown us if he's fully healthy and fully engaged and in moderately good shape. The dude is a freaking killer.

[Zach Lowe]

He's already.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yes.

[Dan Woike]

Win playoff series. It's just.

[Nikias Duncan]

And like here's the other part of it, like, and these are regular season games. Didn't matter. I understand this stuff, but like, you know, I was around the Lakers as like when they were like really humming and they go into Oklahoma City. They destroy them in Oklahoma City and would have probably beaten them again and sort of like a playoff like run through. And then Luca Don just gets ejected in that game for arguing. I think everybody like there thought it was kind of a soft tech. He was yelling at somebody in the front row. He's bounced. But anyways, you know, like they stood up to them again in a series where, you know, like that roster was thrown together after like the seismic shifting trade, they go into Indiana and they beat the Pacers. At a time when the Pacers are playing great basketball. LeBron James at the buzzer, they go and beat Indiana. I. I have a lot of confidence in their ability to be competitive on a.

[Zach Lowe]

In.

[Nikias Duncan]

In a series with anyone. Based on how top heavy they are now, can they hide their imperfections well enough? You know, last year the answer was absolutely not. You know, not having a playable center against Minnesota was a killer. They struggled guarding up in switches and different things like that. They did a pretty good job in Anthony Edwards. They didn't do a great job anywhere else. It was, you know, that stuff they have to fix and they have to address the question is. Is like, does an in shape Luka Doncic does an Austin Reeves who takes another step, does a JJ Redick in year two in this job and just sort of continuity and Then the changes they made, adding Dondra Aiden, using Jake Laraba to help replace what you lost a little bit with Dorian Finney Smith. Does that make you good enough, like, like, to, to, to clear the bar from being competitive to, like, to your point, you know, like, staring down 16 wins in the playoffs, I, I don't think it gets you there, honestly, as of today. But I mean, I, I think, like, it'd be, you know, tough as hell to beat them. Like, they're, they're like, they're close. If, if, if it's there. Like, they weren't, I guess more, it's more like, Zach, they weren't that far away, which was like this whole, like, LeBron wants to play on a championship contending team. Like, we all thought that's what they were like, you know, prior to that series. They're the three seed of the West. Like, we thought they were good enough, like, because they had gone and done all this stuff and then it obviously, it fell apart.

[Dan Woike]

So anyway, so. So again, winning one playoff series and they could beat almost any of these teams in one playoff series. It's just a different animal than winning two or three.

[Nikias Duncan]

Three. Yep.

[Dan Woike]

And I think the expectation. Expectations, the wrong word. LeBron's going to be 41 years old. You just could not reasonably expect him to go through a full season in a long playoff run without his body breaking down at some point in the season.

[Nikias Duncan]

And it's happened the last few years. Like, he's had these late season injuries. It was a foot, the groin. You know, like, there's. There have been things that have happened.

[Dan Woike]

Because he's gonna be 41. Like, you can't get to the first round of the playoffs and be like, shocked that LeBron's a little banged up now. I think Reeves will make a leap. I like the Aiden thing for them. You know, I like Hachimura. All the things you're like, laravia is good. Is he going to be as good as Finney Smith this year? Maybe not, but maybe, maybe in two years. Yeah, I think I've already said. I think the Lakers will come out looking fine in that kind of swap of guys. It's just hard for me and, and the age thing. And that's why the Oklahoma City stuff is so, so scary for the rest of the league, because J Dub and Chet are just gonna. They still have, particularly Chet. Huge, huge leaps to make offensively for Chet and part. And playing with SGA is such a great security blanket for them because they can. He could. He protects them from Ever being overextended and gives both of them the luxury. Less so for J Dub, who had to really go nuts for them to win the title, but gives them the luxury of stretching their wings when they kind of feel like it or when it's safe to do it in the regular season. And I think JDub's got another level to hit. He's already all NBA guy. I think just, I think Chet is really just scratching the surface of what he can be offensively. And the Lakers, other than Reaves don't really have anyone on that kind of like obvious skyrocketing and not that Reaves is on that level, but like it's just their, their age is. The Thunder's age is such a competitive advantage, both for development and for. I guess you'd have to leave Chet aside out of this a little bit because he's been a little bit injury prone. But for like their likelihood of their key guys being healthy for, for the whole entire season.

[Nikias Duncan]

They also, And Zach, when we were talking a little bit before the show, you know, about what we were going to talk about, one of the things I've, I really like talking to, especially when we're here talking to people about team building and, and things like that with the thing about Oklahoma City and the situation that they're in that I think is like, it's all about margins and, and the, the second apron has provided has made it harder to like win on the margins. It's made it harder to give somebody that extra million dollars just because it's the right thing to do or some version like that. You may need that money, you may need that space, you know, to fill up, to fill a 15th roster spot later or something like that. Oklahoma City has so many mechanisms to correct their mistakes. Like they, they could get off of a contract any contract they want. They have the picks, they have the young players that they're not using. You know, like, I'm sure they don't want to trade Nikola Tovich, but like if they had to, they could and they could use him to, if they had to shed salary, if they had to gain flexibility. It's, it's.

[Dan Woike]

They have team options on some of their expensive guys that they can use as leverage for longer term contracts or whatever.

[Nikias Duncan]

They go in so many different directions. And I think like the, the, the issue with the Lakers and this is, and with other teams, but in particular the Lakers, the team that I'm around the most is that like the Lakers, the Lakers road to a championship is like a fairly like defined route, you know what I mean? Like it, it, it, it has pretty high curbs on it. Like you're not gonna like there's not a lot of room for it to go to your point. Like, you know, there's. Is Gabe Vincent gonna have like this like massive offensive, you know, I like Gabe Vincent. He, we know who he is in the NBA, you know what I mean? Like, unless it's awesome reason, unless somehow it's Jake Laravia, unless they figure out Dalton connect in a way like they, they don't have these guys like they don't have. And then, and then on top of that, they don't have the ability to correct their mistakes because they've had to use a lot of that stuff to correct their other mistakes. You know, they still pay in a lot of ways for the Russell Westbrook trade, like and the handcuff that that put on them. They have one second round pick one in their arsenal. And you know, I think we've seen this off season, like, you know, we see every, like this, a second round pick is like the 20. Like you slip the doorman to like get the, like to move stuff, move stuff along. They have no optionality on that front. You know, they can't trade their 26 first until draft night. So if we're talking about trading picks, you're talking about trading picks, you know, six, seven, eight years out, which is terrifying. It's like they. I have one route to go and that's I think a big reason why it's a good one. Luka Doncic like get on Luka dodges back is a good route. Oklahoma City just has so many different directions they can take. Their roster. Denver, you know, made real changes in a way where you know, like, it's like they shed money and they got better.

[Dan Woike]

Well, it's Luca being like, it is fun.

[Nikias Duncan]

And the Clippers are going to be really good too. Zach.

[Dan Woike]

It is fun to zoom out though and remind yourself like they did get Luka Doncic is on the Lakers.

[Nikias Duncan]

Yeah. And like that's what I mean. Like the stuff that they're not like every Luca team that has had like really credible, like they are contenders.

[Dan Woike]

Well, they have to have, you know, a credible top eight defense. And do the Lakers have that now? They were a top three defense for quite a while once they got Luca and everyone was like, whoa, what's happening here? And then it didn't sustain and then suddenly they had no centers. Now they have an okay defensive center who's pretty good on his good Nights when he feels like playing. So we'll see what kind of infrastructure they can build. All right. Can I just have some fun for a second?

[Nikias Duncan]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Dan Woike]

So when the rich ball statement came out, all of us started making our fake LeBron trades, right? Just for fun. Dallas was mentioned, Cleveland was mentioned, the warriors were mentioned. I don't think, you know, the Jimmy Butler for LeBron thing is I don't think going to be a thing that happens. And I don't think Jimmy Butler's people like that mentioned very often. I pitched New York as the most logical potential. Like, if you. I don't. Again, I don't think that's going to happen there. You could, you could think it out. You can go back and listen.

[Nikias Duncan]

Ogn and Obi would look really good on a Luca dodge.

[Dan Woike]

Well, Bill mentioned the Clippers and it dawned on me. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna. Like, I. For some reason I didn't think of it. I don't know who, if anyone's really mentioned it, there's like a. There's like a Heat reunion trade that kind of like actually makes some sense for both sides. And I don't think there's. To be clear, I don't think they've talked about it. I don't know if anyone's even thought about it, but just if we're spitballing the Lakers, have I, I guess, sniffed around Wiggins? I didn't really understand any of those trade rumors.

[Nikias Duncan]

They're not, they're not interested in Andrews. I think I can put that. I think I can put that to bed. Okay, let's just pretend they have. Yeah.

[Dan Woike]

Yeah. I didn't get. I've already said on my podcast, like, I didn't understand what those room, like they were suddenly giving up like a lot of. For Andrew Wiggins. Like, is Rui Hachimura just as good as Andrew Wiggins? Like, why am I adding a lot more to that? I like Kachamura, but let's just, you know, they have salary attached to decent players. They have a young rim running center that Luca can grow with and Khaleel wear and they are a place where like LeBron has been and knows and there's like a certain romanticism to that and like Hero plus LeBron plus Bam plus, you know, I think they can still aggregate. I'm just saying. It's just what. It's a. A fake fun thing that I didn't think of at the time.

[Zach Lowe]

Time.

[Dan Woike]

I still think if you force me to Pick, like, what's going to happen here? I just think he's going to be on the Lakers and they'll all figure it out together and there'll be this nice cooling off period and they'll come and they'll be a good team, much like the warriors will be. There's honor and being a good team that can get to the second round of the west for third round if everything goes right. And maybe that's it. But I don't know. I, I, I just, I'm not closing any doors because this is a very strange situation. And to your point, everyone's talking about it and it still feels strange.

[Nikias Duncan]

I think this is like when I try to like go 30,000ft on this. I just try to remind myself that people in general, like, operate on pattern and they operate on like previous experience and they're just. There is no previous, there's no experience, there's no previous, like, playbook on how to handle a player at this age who's this productive. It's just like there's. What do you do with this? Like, like every piece of information, Zach, that we know is that players get worse as they get older. Their bodies break down, they're less reliable. You can't count on them as much, like, you know, just because of time. And he's still one of, you know, the 15 best players in the league. 10 some nights he was, I mean, Zach, when he came back in like late December, from like late December till he got injured in March, he was so freaking good. Like, like defensively, like flying around. Yeah. Like, that's where that was, like on a night, like on a nightly basis, like jj and JJ was like, you know, he's playing an all defensive team level. And I don't think it was like he was everywhere, like, talking, closing out, like scrambling, playing at this intensity that I hadn't really seen from him on a nightly basis. On the defensive end.

[Dan Woike]

Right.

[Nikias Duncan]

Like, we've all seen like the clips of kind of like that.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure.

[Nikias Duncan]

You know, the half, like the half ass, like closeouts and stuff. Like there was none of that. Like he was bought in, locked in. Anthony Davis was on that team for a chunk of it. Then he wasn't. They played a lot of those games, games without Anthony Davis or Luka Doncic, and they won them. Like, it was, it was an incredible stretch. And so it's like, how do you turn your back on like a player who's that good, too?

[Dan Woike]

Well and all. And also for the first time since LeBron was, I don't even know how old he's on a team that is no longer all about him as the centerpiece. And you know, I think that's also an unprecedented. This is like a different. I said it right on the day it happened. This is different from the typical LeBron playbook of I'm just using the threat of my free agency to put pressure on the front office. This is different than that for a lot of reasons that we're outlined.

[Nikias Duncan]

So one, yeah, it's a one on one situation. Like, and I think that is a big part of the reason why, like I will say, like you do. There is like a fatigue, I think, and like, like running this down. Like, I have sources that know LeBron, that know the Lakers really well and they just don't want to talk to me about this anymore. Like, that they've like, like I've, I've just done it too much. Like I'm not doing this. And I think, like. But there is this curiosity about it because he's, you know, one of the best players ever to play this game, certainly the best player to play at this level deep into a career ever. And, you know, he's worthy of investment in almost any situation. Is this the exception? And that I think is just a fascinating question that I don't have an answer to. And I don't think the Lakers totally know yet either.

[Dan Woike]

Dan Woieke, you're going to chronicle all this for the Athletic. Congrats on the new gig. It's wonderful to see you. I'll see you probably in person in the next few days as we're roaming around Sin City. Read all of Dan's stuff at the Athletic. Thank you, bud.

[Nikias Duncan]

Thanks, Zach.

[Dan Woike]

This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Same goes for growing a business. And HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win Breeze. Their built in AI automatically takes care of marketing, sales and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient, and most importantly, it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. All right, let's bring on one of my favorite guests to dive into the nitty gritty, because that's what we're doing today. Nikaius Duncan, with these restricted free agents who are kind of stuck. They're all kind of uninteresting teams, except for maybe Cam Thomas. But they're all interesting players and it's the talk of the league right now. Like what's going to happen to these guys? There's little to to no cap room left. They have no to minimal leverage. There's meetings going on here in Las Vegas. I know Kaminga's reps have met with the warriors people already and I think there are more meetings to come. I don't know that anything's come of those. Josh Giddy, Jonathan Kaminga, Quinton Grimes, Camp Thomas, all interesting situations. We're going to dive into them. Nikias, welcome to the Zach Low Show.

[Zach Lowe]

Happy to be on the Zach Low Show. Just trying to stay cool out here in Las Vegas. Vegas Got to catch Aces Valkyries while I was out here. Naturally summer league is going around, but plenty of basketball, but excited to dig into these restricted free agents.

[Dan Woike]

We're going to pump fake and start with Quentin Grimes because I've talked about Kaminga a lot, a lot, a lot over the last couple of years as he has been in and out of Steve Kerr's Good to Bad to Bad to Medium Bad graces. Talked a lot about the sad situation with the Chicago Bulls and Josh Giddy. I did see at the hotel gym yesterday, I did see Arturo's Carnisovas working out and I was like, there was. He was on an elliptical and there was one other elliptical right next to him that I kind of. And I kind of wanted to do the elliptical. I was like, I don't know. I don't know if this is going to go well if I hop on the elliptical next to Arturis. And then he left and he said hi. And you know who he said hi to? The scariest of the Jokic brothers is here in Las Vegas for some reason. And let me tell you, I had forgotten how enormous Strahania is. And he was lifting weights at the gym before I got there and still lifting weights as I was leaving. And I was like, yeah, no wonder. This guy's an absolute monster. They had a nice little moment. This is what happens at summer league in Las Vegas, okay? Quentin Grimes, Sixers. You know, this is still a team with serious ambitions and he can be a key player on that team with serious ambitions. They got him for free, essentially from the Dallas Mavericks. Not for free. I shouldn't say that. Caleb Martin's a good player, but they were incentivized with a second round pick and amid injuries to everybody, he absolutely exploded. And I went and re watched a lot of his X's and O's pick and roll stuff from the end of the season because I remember watching those games, Nikais and thinking yeah, he's getting leeway that he won't get when, when, when Joel Embiid is healthy, when Paul George is healthy, when Tyrese Maxey is healthy and he's chucking some pull up threes. He won't really get the freedom to take all the time in those situations. But nothing about it in real time felt like fake or selfish to me. It felt like a player getting to stretch his wings and proving yeah, I can, I can do some stuff that people maybe didn't think I could do. I could do it somewhat efficiently and it's going to translate into a second, third, fourth option kind of role in various ways. But I wanted to, you're watching these guys as closely or more closely than anyone. What did you make of his of his late season run and how it translates to the like actual Sixers team?

[Zach Lowe]

It was a lot of what you said, like none of it felt outside of the literal volume of it all to your point, none of it felt unsustainable. I remember watching, I think it was the Golden State game game where he just went off in that second half in particular and I kind of made the joke to Steve as we were watching the game like man, these are a lot of hesitation dribbles from him. He's just getting to the same move over and over again. But if you can't stop it, why stop doing it? But to that end, like I think he's always been a solid shooter. I think something that popped early on in New York when he was actually in the rotation was how good he was against closeouts, could knock down spot up shots or here are these straight line drives to get right into the teeth of the defense and he can make basic points passes from their finish. And so combining that with some of the self creation flashes that we saw last year, like again, do I think he's going to average? I think it was like 22, 5 and 5 post all star break for him. Do I think he's going to be that? I don't. Unless we have another barrage of injuries for Philly, which I guess you can't rule out based on recent history. But the fact that he has been in a smaller role and he's been fine, the fact that we saw him scale up the way that we did towards the end of the year, again fine volume not gonna hold. But he didn't look uncomfortable running ball screens. If he saw unders, he was comfortable Pulling up. He got into the teeth of the defense more than I anticipated. I think he did get into a lot of mid range jumpers which I think is going to be helpful for him. If teams are going to switch against Philly a bunch. If it is just late clock stuff, I would like to see him get to the room a little bit more as a self creator versus those closed out attacks. But the theory of that is going to be if you have Tyrese Maxey who could bend the defense, if you have Paul George who I hope is going to be back to bending defense defenses and if you have Joel Embiid for X amount of time that is just going to draw two in some capacity. It makes it easier for him to get back into those close out attacking roles. You get some of that rim pressure back in addition to once we get into some of the staggering. If it's going to be Grimes plus Jared McCain and some in some hybrid units or whatever the case may be, he can now assume more of that usage and I think with the offensive uses getting a little bit lower we'll probably see a little bit more of a return to the defense that we saw earlier in this career. Like I didn't think it was bad in Philly, but we have seen better from him. So I'm pretty high on the Quinton Grimes experience, honestly.

[Dan Woike]

Yeah, I think. I think it was real in the sense that all of the on ball reps he got will translate right into being a secondary spot up shooter. Like all the, all the D, all the experience he got running the offense, driving, having to master all the reads on the pick and roll. All of that translates to catch go know where everybody is. And he did not play selfishly. Like as much as he had the freedom to take pull up threes and all this stuff which, which he. He had to because nobody else was there to do anything.

[Nikias Duncan]

He.

[Dan Woike]

He wasn't out there jacking or playing selfishly. When people put two on him he would hit the roll man or swing it to the shooter. Like he would get off of it early. He had a good eye for everybody was. And all of that stuff translates to a secondary role. It translates to like as simple as Tyrese Embiid pick and roll with Grimes coming up from the corner around a pin down to catch it on the second side and kind of running the offense from there, keeping the machine moving. Like I think he's going to be a weapon for. He's obviously going to resign there. Like they, they let Yabu Selly go to New York. I thought that was a great signing for the Knicks to have the cap flexibility and apron flexibility to retain him. It's just going to be a matter of the number and the years and it's just these guys are all getting squeezed and it's a tough situation. But I, I thought he was like. And again, to your point about hesitation dribbles, he showed some craft. He showed some real burst too. Like you're talking about hesis where he slows down and changes pace. He shows some straight like line drive kind of driving to the rim where he's got some speed, particularly going left. He made 60 pull up threes last year. 60 of 136. He had made 40 combined in the rest of his prior career. He shot 39.4%. I'm gonna round up to 40. I'm in a good mood. He shot 40% on catch and shoot threes. The shooting I think is pretty real and it's the still the number one most important thing to have around this largely theoretical team. I think I, I think he made a leap as a player that is like pretty sustainable in a smaller role. I can't wait to see how it looks with, I mean, like, I don't even know. I have no notes. Like, I liked all of it. Like you said, his defense maybe wasn't where it's going to need to be, particularly for a team that no matter how you slice it, is going to have to play three guards quite a bit because they're just three of the six or seven best players on the team. But I think it can get back there. I have no, no, like almost no criticisms. I thought it was real and efficient and like super fun to watch. And a really nice story that unfolded as nobody really was watching because the Quentin Grimes Adam Bona two man game was not going to draw a lot of eyeballs in March and April.

[Zach Lowe]

We're gonna put some respect on Adam Bona in the screening and the short role playmaking from him.

[Nikias Duncan]

He's.

[Zach Lowe]

He's just a really fun backup. Big like honestly, the backup front court for Philly naturally has been a storyline for the last few years because whenever Joel Embiid goes off the court, the team just kind of dies. But between Bona and They needed the bright spot because I'm not quite sure what the Andre Drummond season was last year.

[Dan Woike]

It didn't. It was. Yeah, I liked it how you put it, like I don't even have an adjective for it. It was just very weird all the way around. Like I don't really know what was going on.

[Zach Lowe]

It it was a very classic. Depending on what night you catch him on, you will see the Andre Drummond experience. Some nights he's going to kill you on the offensive glass and he has the finishing going. Here's a nice pass here. Other nights I don't know where he is on defense. The finishing isn't there. It was just very odd. I hope he's able to find a level of consistency last year, next year, but no to the Quinn Grimes of it all. Like I think again it's sustainable. I'm excited to see what the actual role is going to be because I think if there's going to be a question mark about Quinn Grimes as far as the skill goes, I think he can kind of slide into whatever role. What we have seen New York get to the Detroit year, etc is that when he is asked to scale down, like how receptive is he to that? Like how consistent are the reps going to be when he is tasked with scaling down? I do think he is better equipped to get more of those touches in Philly based on who he's going to be playing with, at least theoretically. But I will keep an eye on that just to see what level of consistency he strikes early on when he's asked to scale down. But other than that, like that was it was fun for Quentin Grimes. It was good. It was a much needed bright spot for how quickly that Philadelphia season went off the rails last year.

[Dan Woike]

What do you make of this team? They still have like the fifth best odds to win the East. They have this theoretical infrastructure of star point guard, star, wing star, big. That makes sense how they fill out around that. Like I'm not even sure what their starting five will be between Grimes and Ubre and McCain and at Edgecomb. I don't know if they'll throw him. I don't know what kind of depth of a role they'll throw him right back into. He's looked good. I've enjoyed the Edgecom experience so far. He's clearly going to play a lot for them. They're going to be a little small. You know, their depth frankly, like let's just say they start just let's just say this. What do you think of this? They start Maxi, Grimes, George. I'll just put Uber in there as like a placeholder, you know, hybrid forward. I don't know if they want to start super small with PG at the 4, which is possible. Embiid and that leaves McCain coming off the bench, Edgecomb coming off the bench and after that I get a little nervous and I say that even as like trend in Watford fanboy number one, the depth, the depth. Like there's like the Kyle Lowry, Eric Gordon, Ricky Counsel, Drummond. Like there's a lot of question marks. Like I'm not sure I'm getting anything out of these guys, but I'm not sure who I would start. But there's a team here that's interesting. I just don't even know, I don't even know how to pro. Like if I were a gambler, I don't care what the line is. Like I wouldn't even look at Philadelphia as any of their like over unders win totals. Nothing. I have no idea what to expect.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I'm kind of in the, I don't know stage for Philadelphia because I, I do expect Paul George to bounce back for what was a weird SL injury riddle. SL weird again season for him and where the scoring wasn't there, the scoring aggression sometimes wasn't there. I like the playmaking, I still like the defense and so I'm expecting him to just be better and more comfortable. And Philly, the Joel Embiid portion makes me sad as a basketball fan because naturally when he is on the court he is still conservatively like a top eight guy that draws.

[Dan Woike]

How about, how about Daryl saying this week in Vegas, I wasn't at the thing. I had not gotten here in time to do the. He had a little in person thing with some media people that I was invited to but couldn't attend. Saying we expect him to be ready by training camp. Like this, this was like, what is that like, you know. And there's been reports that he's like somewhat resumed basketball activities but, but not entirely. I didn't think this cleanup or whatever it was was supposed to be this long. Like I, it, I don't know what I, I, I, that I just, I just have noises now like.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, seeing he hadn't been doing five on five yet, it's like, okay, that doesn't sound great. Doesn't have to be the end of the world that they're kind of slow playing and making sure ultimately they believe in the team. You know what, make sure you're good by.

[Dan Woike]

He's ramping up. That's what's happening. He's ramping up there. He's always ramping, ramping up. Never ramping sideways. Never. He's just ramping up. He'll be ramping up on Christmas still.

[Zach Lowe]

There we go, there we go. But like obviously they want to make sure he is ready for whatever playoff push that they have. So if it's through that lens, then I take a little bit of the angst away. But I didn't love hearing that either. And I think for Embiid, he's kind of reached the, I guess kind of like the Kawhi zone for me where there is going to be a three to five week stretch this season where he is a top three player in basketball. And if you're the Sixers, you're just hoping that that timeline matches up with mid to late March into April into May and then hoping he stays healthy from there. And I think goal number one is just making sure that he gets there. And so if you get the Paul George bounce back, if you get Tyrese Maxey, who made some real strides last year as a playmaker, just his craft and know how inside the arc in general pop for me watching those Sixers games. And so if you get more from Paul George, you get Tyrese Maxey, you get more of Jared McCain, which electric rookie season before he went down.

[Dan Woike]

Awesome, awesome.

[Zach Lowe]

He was tremendous. And so there, there is like a little bit of a sample size thing that I have in the back of my head with Jared McCain because he was very good. But it was 26 games, I believe is what it was. And so I am curious to see what happens when scouting scouting reports update on him, what it looks like there. But if they're able to carry the torch during the regular season, Joel Embiid can still just destroy worlds and so get him healthy enough towards the end of the year, they should be solid. Like, I personally cannot make a the Sixers are making the Eastern Conference finals bet, at least not comfortably. They're in the bucket of I wouldn't be surprised if it happens if they're healthy. But that's like two, three ifs already. They're in a weird place for me.

[Dan Woike]

I'm just gonna go straight to I would be surprised if it happens. And you know, I was tempted because it sounds like a good thing to say, to say something like, well, no team has more pressure on them this season than the Philadelphia 76ers. This is a prove it season for this three man nucleus, whatever. And it kind of is in the sense that like if it doesn't work this season, the odds just keep getting longer and longer that it's ever going to work as Paul George gets older and Joel Embiid gets older. I just don't, I just can't sort of put that level of expectation on them because My expectation is that Joel Embiid will be injured at some point in the season and that, you know, we keep hoping for this miracle season of, yeah, he's gonna miss games, but maybe it will be the kind of injury that isn't debilitating in the medium or long term, even as he recovers and comes back and plays from it. Maybe it's one. Just a fluky thing. And he's had a lot of fluky things in the past, from broken faces to Bell's palsy to, you know, just lots of fluky things. But he's also had a lot of knee things and a lot of leg things. And, you know, maybe it'll be time that he's just. It's an early season injury and he's perfectly healthy for the playoffs and he's ready for the 20 to 25 game run that we've been waiting for and waiting for and waiting for. I just don't have any faith at his point, at this point in his career with this much wear and tear, like we learn every playoffs, how hard it is, how much of a grind it is to win, win 16, 12, whatever, to play 20, 24, super high intensity, super physical, new level of physicality, always against good competition. Like, you're not walking over anybody. If you're the Philadelphia 76ers. Even in the Easter, there's not going to be an easy playoff series. And I just, like, I just don't have any faith and. And that he's going to be able to do that. Maybe it'll happen at some point, which just leads you to believe, like, yo, no one has more pressure on them than the Sixers. Like, I think the actual feeling I have is like, I just don't know where this is going other than there'll be fun moments and fun months and we can all hope for this miracle. But I just, you know, they have maxi, they have McCain, they have Edgecombe. That's. I guess that's where it's going. And I don't know, it just feels like we're in this. In between purgatory, just hoping for a miracle. But I just. I can't. I can't predict any kind of major. I mean, they still haven't made the conference finals even when he's been healthy. And I just don't have any faith. I just. My faith is gone. I'm gone.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I think that's fair. I think for me, the. I wouldn't be surprised is through the lens of if they're healthy enough, they have the nucleus or at least like the top four to six that is talented enough to get there. So if they get to that class, like from a talent perspective, it wouldn't surprise me. To your point about the actual availability, what we've seen, I think it's more than fair. Like, it's hard to bank on Joel Embiid being healthy. Heck, it's hard to bank on Paul George being healthy at this point. And so that's where they ultimately land in the, I don't know, camp for me. Like, if they finished, if they're the third seed this year and it's like, oh, okay, they were healthy then if they're the eighth seed and it's like, oh, okay, they really weren't healthy if they're 11th or 12th. Oh, we just got eight games of Joel to beat. And now we are going to get into uncomfortable trade conversations and what is actual value and who are the teams that make this? So, like, it's, it's just odd. They are very high variance group.

[Dan Woike]

Yeah. And like, look, this all sounds pessimistic. Like, Embiid is. I have used the word majestic often to describe him when he's in his element and in his full health. It's just an absolutely dominating, domineering presence on both sides of the floor. The leap he has made as a passer sort of, sort of crystallized everything about his game. In the middle of the floor, able to do anything, face up, post up, dribble into a post up, hit any pass. Like, he just lorded over. He lords over the game from the center of the foul line, the Dirk spot, and was like a fully actualized super duper star on both ends of the floor. Yeah, he'd conserve energy on defense. It wasn't always there, but he would, he would flash this closing speed at the rim where he'd be like, oh my God, where did it? And then you would fall over and you'd be like, please stop falling, Joel. Anyway, okay, Sixers, we'll see. Let's start. I. I don't have much left to say about Josh Giddy. He had a good year last year. I thought he played with more aggression and more physicality and just more like, I'm just gonna go to the rim a little bit more without caution, without abandon. He's never going to be a super physical, strong, like, initiate a ton of contact kind of player, but I thought he did that more. I've covered his improved three point shooting, both catch and shoot, and a little itty bitty off the bounce. He made 18 pull up threes last year for him. That's a lot. Defense and rebounding good. I don't know where the Bulls are going. I assume they'll resign him at some number. They seem to finally kind of understand the leverage that they have, but I don't. Is there any. Do you have any interesting Josh Giddy takes? Are you a massive Josh Giddy fan? And I just forgot got this. Are you a Josh Kitty hater? Are you a Bulls? Like they could win 55 games this year? Watch out for the Bulls. Like do you have any hot Bulls takes for me?

[Zach Lowe]

Unfortunately I don't have any hot Bulls takes for you. Like Steve has been laughing at me for three. Pretty much the entirety of the Dunker Spot podcast with me. Just being confused by the overall direction of the Chicago Bulls and the ceiling that they don't seem to notice is actually their ceiling and kind of lock against different groups. With the giddy season itself. Like you already nailed most of it. Just the surge in the second half of the year, you the drives were what intrigued me the most. The fact that he was hitting first more and he was using the shoulders more. The foul rate went up for him. The threes are kind of whatever since that was what, three or four attempts a game. But it is nice that he is making those shots to the pull up threes portion. The fact that he is taking more of them I think is important for him because he's going to continue to see switches. He's going to continue to see unders. He is just going to have to be beat that coverage some kind of way. As I was listening to your most recent episode with Robin, y' all were talking about Josh Giddy and you got into some of the player comps. Can I toss out a very specific thing that I would like to see more of from Josh Giddy with a player that is also just to just.

[Dan Woike]

Clarify, we're referring to last episode with Rob or two episodes. I can't remember when we did a Bulls deep dive. It. I don't even think it's a deep dive. It's like a shallow. We walked into like a zero entry pool because there's not a lot of depth to dive into. We just did a Bulls Wade, wait. We waited in all things Bulls. It's not great. But we talked about Josh Giddy and I challenged him. Can you come up with what like a. What is a fully actualized Josh Giddy resemble on a truly good 5055 win team? And I don't mean an exact player complic he plays this way or you could go that way. But what what is there a player whose role or identity he would be similar to and it was hard. It was hard. But who's your Give me give me your what you want to say.

[Zach Lowe]

I think my thing with Josh Giddy because I think a lot of the castation for him as like a lead option is just what do the scoring chops look like. Can he drive enough offense that way because the playmaking he just has it. If a defense is tilted he's going to do so in transition. Where the Bulls were just randomly a super fast high paced team last year through the image of Josh Giddey like he can make those reads I would like to see him implement more of and a quick shout out to the great Caitlin Cooper who noted this a few years ago. It got to it first but when Tyrese Halliburton was seeing switches and he would just pass it to the person that's nearest to him and then just run into a catch and get downhill if he can get to more of that to bump up the rim rate a little bit more because again he showed growth last year as a guy that hit first and he would get into these like 12 foot push shots and floaters that he was oddly comfortable with. But if it's more of the I am getting the switch against the big passed it to the wing. I am now trying to outrun this big get it on the move and now I can get into some of this driving craft that I've added to my game. Does that get him to the line more? Does it get him to the rim more? Does that open up more catch and shoot opportunities for others? Because again he can make just about any pass in the book like adding that Tyrese portion or at least doing so with more volume I think will be very helpful for him and the Bulls.

[Dan Woike]

Okay, I'm Kaminga out. I don't know what. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know if there's. I don't know where the sign and trade is going to be. Miami has already made a big trade. I don't necessarily think that takes them like out of a Kaminga thing. I don't think Washington was ever in Chicago. They've just. I don't know. I don't know anything about the Bulls. I just know they've got a lot of guys at a similar position position including Senge, the guy they just drafted. And I think, I think they would be somewhat Worried about if we get this guy in the door, what does that mean for the development of all these other guys? If the Bulls are thinking beyond, you know, let's win 42 again in any sense. Sacramento, I think, is sort of is probably the. The hottest team on him right now, from what I've heard. I just. I. I don't have much left to say about him. I do think it's interesting. Like, everyone's been earmarking Horford to the warriors for, like, two weeks. I don't really know what is holding that up. I suspect it just has to do with. I don't know that it's necessarily connected to trying to execute something with Kaminga and see what's left over to pay. Al. I. I suspect it's a money issue, but if they get him, I think their play, I don't know, their plan could be to start him, because I think Steve Kerr wants shooting around The Draymond Jimmy 3, 4 combination. They're still kind of hopeful about Jackson Davis having a bigger role. Maybe there's a world where he starts now and then, you know, Steve will switch this up a lot, but any coming. I mean, look, I did a Warrior sing with Rob. It was bleak. Like, I don't really see a championship path for this nucleus. And that's not bleak. Like, that's fine. I've said many times there is honor in raging against the dying of the light on a good team that's just going to be good in the Western Conference. Like, there's honor in that. There's nothing wrong with that. But I don't see a championship, and then I don't see any road map for what's next that is crystallized yet. Do you? No.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm kind of in a weird place. Like, I would love Al Horford for Golden State. And I kind of wonder, as you mentioned, probably starting him. I don't think they want to start Draymond at the five again, like, I do. Kind of wonder, in terms of just regular season maintenance, at the very least, do you start Trace Jackson Davis or even Quentin Post? If you want more of that stretch element at the five, have them start. But play, like, 18 minutes a game, and you're still closing without Horford. Like, is that a way that you could kind of get the best of both worlds, save Draymond, have him at the four a little bit more. You get to see a little bit more of Post or Trace Jackson Davis, which really good rookie season, second year is kind of up and down, but then, so some Interesting flashes in the playoffs and then Al Horford who can still just at a moment's notice take over a game on both ends of the floor. Like that would be fun for me. As far as the Kaminga of it all, it's just a really odd situation to where there is clear talent but there isn't a clear fit. And I think that friction has just been there the entirety of his tenure in Golden State. And like just looking at some of the Kaminga numbers, like one of the things that popped for me, I was going looking at Basketball reference on this front but 40 games across his first four seasons in Golden State where he lost at least 30 minutes, 21.6 boards, two assists in a steal in those games, which I think if I'm his agent I'm just like, hey, this is what he can do. If you actually give him a role for either the warriors or outside team that may consider signing and traded for him. There is a star hiding in plain sight. Like I can't all the way get there but like you can at least make the case because the warriors do need his athleticism in terms of the roster construction. They do just need someone that can play the four at some point. So like there's a need there. But I don't know if he's going to get what he needs in terms of usage and just overall investment because I don't think he is. He has made strides as one of those defense is tilted. I can make the extra pass if necessary, I can make the cut of necessary but it isn't natural for him. And I think that has always been kind of the main thing with Steve Kerr, especially since Kaminga has always had the frame and the athleticism to be a very good defender. But he hasn't put that together game by game as a defender. I. I don't know like even going back to like Trader. I've just been waiting on like Kaminga to Chicago. I've been waiting on like V to Golden State for it feels like months.

[Dan Woike]

I don't think V is. I don't think that. I don't think V to Golden State is a thing. I don't think it is a thing. I'm not sure it really ever was a thing but. But on this current contract it anyway I think you nailed it with. We can all, including me who has been a little bit more optimistic, a lot more optimistic on Kaminga than the warriors coaching staff is. Maybe not the front office but the coaching staff. I think we're all guilty of over complicating it a little bit. And I think you nailed it in the sense that it's in my notes here. If he just defended better, I think he would have played. Played more. I think. I think the warriors coaches would have let him grow through the. Okay, you don't quite fit the ethos of our beautiful game and you don't play our way. We kind of need, frankly, someone who doesn't fit that style and can be a curveball for us. Or in. In. In Kaminga's case, a battering ram.

[Zach Lowe]

Need those drives. Yeah.

[Dan Woike]

But the defense just hasn't been there consistently enough. And to your point about. Imagine being his agent and putting up. You can slice and dice these numbers. Like, look at this. Look at this sample size where he scored 25 points a game. And like, I. I like Kaminga, and I suspect that's what they're doing with the Minnesota series, which they lost in a. In a dispiriting fashion. And he was probably the leading scorer in the series. I haven't looked at the numbers for them. And I watched that series as a Kaminga sort of supporter or supportive. Just like as a guy who's intrigued and wants to see him grow into the place player that I think there is a version of him that really hits. And I want to see that. And even AC Was making, like a lot of shots in the Minnesota series. I didn't come away being like, see, that's it. This is the guy. Like, I just felt like he made a lot of tough shots and. And it was not. You got to the line a lot. I thought he got bailed out on some calls in the paint.

[Nikias Duncan]

I don't know.

[Dan Woike]

I didn't come away, like, I didn't come away watching that Minnesota series feeling like vindicated in my Kaminga opportunity, optimism, as much as you would think looking at the raw numbers that he put up, maybe it's because they just lost every game. It's not his fault. They were just wildly out talented with Jimmy Butler hobbled and no Steph and all that.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I think that's fair. And like, I think from that you mentioned him being a batter Gram, again, they need his drives. They need his general athleticism in general. And I think if you're looking for outside teams, the optimistic view of that series is that, okay, he may not be number one option on a team, but if we do have better players around him and he's in a role that he's comfortable in, once we get into Jonathan Kaminga plus starter, two plus bench unit Camilla can hold serve for you. Like, I think if Steph is there, the Kaminga buckets just feel so much more impactful because you're running around trying to deal with that, deal with Jimmy Butler, whatever. One or both of those guys come to the bench. And now here's Jonathan Kaminga hitting you with these waves of drives and getting to the line and knocking down shots, etc, that it was really just him, him and what was left of Jimmy Butler at that point because he clearly wasn't healthy. It was just a lot of scoring in a vacuum, which it is still important, but in terms of, you know, the overall impact, really shifting things, making defenses do anything differently was kind of tough through that lens. And even with that, I kind of go back and forth. It's like this Minnesota defense is just good. Yeah, like not many other teams as he was still getting to his spots and getting to line and stuff. Not many teams just have a group of perimeter defenders that they can just toss on these guys like Minnesota can. And so even with that, like, how replicable is that 14 to withstand all of what Kaminga did and still just feel generally good about it.

[Dan Woike]

I'm not even sure, like, what does that look like against Sacramento? What's the trade, you know, what kind of salary? I've mentioned base year, compensation, Like Golden State wants real stuff for him. Where's the. It's. It's very complicated. Just a quick tangent here here because I mentioned a suit, a shooting center and that a little light bulb went off that I wanted to talk about something real quick. We talked a lot about the Miles Turner transaction, both ends of it, quite a bit, I would say. I've only been in Vegas for 18 hours. I've already seen a million people and I've been obviously talking on the phone to a million people. Maybe the hottest question going around the league right now is, so what did the Pacers actually offer Miles Turner? And I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. Right. Because and linked to that. I didn't watch Kevin Pritchard's press conference where he did his sort of post free agency roundtable where obviously this was going to come up and a number of people were like, I think you should watch it. It's a little bit strange. And so I went and watched it today and it is a little bit strange. He mentioned good faith negotiations like eight times. And then being out of the blue comes Milwaukee. They didn't see it coming. They didn't see this dame, wave and stretch coming. Nowhere in there and then he said that he was asked directly. He mentioned a million times, like, we were willing to go into attacks, like, way into the tax, almost to the second threshold of attacks. We were willing to do it. And then he was asked directly, like, did the Halliburton injury change your approach to Miles Turner? And he said, no, no, I don't think so. I don't believe that, frankly. Like, I just can't possibly believe that that's true. But I, I just never kind of. There was no answer of, like, what was actually offered to Miles Turner. And now he goes to Milwaukee. And I've defended the, the, I've slightly defended the Pacers approach in light of the Halliburton injury. Of. Okay, like, we think Miles is good. Probably on the decline, probably a little too expensive for. For our taste at this number that the Bucks are offering him. We did not perform offensively when, when the going got real tough in the last two rounds of the playoffs. Has never been the most intuitive offensive player. Obviously works very well with Tyrese because of his shooting. We think we can finagle something to replace him medium, long term. And yes, our owners will eagerly take any excuse for us not to go into the tax. That sucks. That sucks. It's true. I think you can defend it in basketball terms, but. And this is the big but, it's not like you have four years to find a workable answer at starting center. Like, you could pencil Miles Turner in for 28 reliable minutes a game against the best teams in the NBA. Now, somewhat, sometimes the offense wasn't super reliable. The spacing at least was even when the shots weren't going in, even when the passing reads weren't there and all that stuff. And everyone's like, well, they have a gap year and they have Isaiah Jackson and Tony Bradley and, you know, maybe Thomas Bryant, and they just traded for J. Huff. You like Jayhoff, I like J. Huff. We all like J. Huff. I'm not sure I want J. Huff starting in the NBA Finals in two years. You can play Obi Toppin and Pascal together. Okay, whatever. Like, they have to find an answer to this by 26, 27, because the rest of the team has proven that they are a legit championship level nucleus together. I think the players, from what I've heard, are kind of over the shock of the Miles thing and are ready to move forward. And some of them know they're going to have more opportunities next year with Tyrese out to kind of show what they can do. But that's next year. Like you don't have a ton of time to find an answer to this question. I don't know what the answer is. I know this, they love Isaiah Jackson who they just resigned on a good three year deal. Often Achilles tear. We'll see how he looks like. I, I just, I think the A what did they offer? Will never maybe never know for sure on the record anyway. And B what's the actual answer going to be? Is it is a question that maybe I have not paid enough? I've not. I've kind of put the question to bed. Is other free agency stuff happen. But there's got to be an answer. What do you think the answer should be?

[Zach Lowe]

Like I think for me as you mentioned, like I do like Jay Huff. I think he is really going to have to make some strides defensively and I think him being, you know, having Andrew Nemhardt, having Aaron Neesmith ahead of him I think is going to help. So I'm curious to see what coverage he ends up landing on on that front because offensively like I think the shooting he'll have to bump up the volume but I think the shooting will be relatively consistent. I think he's a very good screen setter which should help some of the, you know, the slow pace that Andrew them Hart plays with when he's operating ball screens. He can get to the middle of the floor and stuff like that. So like I think Jay Hill is a stop gap is fine. I think if Isaiah Jackson is back healthy I want to see how quickly he grows defensively because all the athletic tools are there. He just kind of spaces out sometimes. It's just a young big thing. But violet rim roller can drive a little bit on top of that. Like I think he really fits the pace and pressure ethos for Indiana. So if he is healthy and he's back to looking like it's a good.

[Dan Woike]

Point, pace and pressure, he does fit that. Obviously the shooting is like it's a total 180 from Miles Turner. But pace, pace, pace, he does fit.

[Zach Lowe]

He's gonna fly into stuff and fly into screens and slips. I think without Tyrese, I mean without we with Tyrese they were still seeing a good bit of switches. Without Tyrese I would imagine they're going to see even more switches than they saw last year. And so having someone like Isaiah Jackson who can grow as a screen to be still fine at it, but really just jets out of slips I think is going to be helpful for this Pacers offense. But stop gap it and then flow into last five minutes of the game. Let's go Pascal and Obi Topping or Pascal plus whichever BIG is working on that night. Like I think that's fine enough for this season. As far as the long term action like you hope or long term answer. Excuse me, you hope Isaiah Jackson solves that. That's where I think losing Miles Turner, losing Miles Turner to the Bucks in particular and then almost immediately getting the deandre Ayton to the Lakers bit all at the same time. It's kind of like, ooh, Indiana really does need to solve this.

[Dan Woike]

So that's one thing I've heard was if there was angst there were about the decision A lot of the there's angst on a lot of levels. Like it sucks that Miles left. He's good ownership spending all that it was if you knew negotiations were going to be tough, right? And they were going to be tough and maybe you misplayed your hand. You thought you had them boxed in and you didn't see the Bucks threat coming but you knew they were going to be tough. You didn't. There was no plan B here beyond J. Huff. There was no like it's too late to get into the Orford Derby, the Ayton Derby. I mean they've loved Dayton. They gave him the offer sheet. You know, all that. I I think that there was some angst around the team about that, but I guess we'll see. I just like to me topping Siakam, like that's a cool answer. Like that's not going to be defensively viable for for 20 minutes a game at the highest level of the playoffs. I don't think real quickly what is Camp Thomas, Nikias? What is he what's going to happen here or what? What do we make of this guy who scores in bunches, who upped his assists significantly last year. Still like I think only four and a half per 36 minutes which given the amount of time he has, the ball is still pretty low but higher. Flashes some good passing skills, some lobs, some dump offs. Still had a usage rate of almost 33% which is what you would associate almost with like Russell Westbrook, James Harden, MVP kind of seasons defensively. What but but the dude can put the ball in the basket and he can make a lot of tough shots and he took more threes and he shoots pretty well from threes. Three doesn't get to the rim that much. His rim rate is lower than I anticipated. Everyone has look the consensus on Camp Thomas, if there is one and he's got some fans and he's got some mega detractors, but the consensus is kind of like empty calories. Ball hog. What do we make of this player who is a restricted free agent floating in the wind?

[Zach Lowe]

I liked a lot of what I saw from K. Thomas last year, and with the context that he. He has been kind of hoggy in the early portions of his career. But we all, we all kind of knew that scoring was going to be the calling card. And so top of the scouting report is this dude could put the ball in the basket. And once he gets in a zone in a literal sense, it does not matter who's in front of him when he's in a zone, like just the elevation of the jumper, like, he just has an array of scoring moves that not many players in the league, period can replicate. And the fact that we did see legitimate playmaking growth from. From him was probably the most intriguing part of the season for me with Brooklyn. And I will raise my hand as one of the few like non Brooklyn media Brooklyn enjoyers from last season. Give me all the full court pressure.

[Dan Woike]

All the things played super hard.

[Zach Lowe]

They did. And I think with Cam, like watching the pacing improve for him in pick and rolls, it is. I am gonna see drop naturally. We're not putting two on the ball view. Not very often at the very least. But I'm going to snake this pick and roll and I'm actually going to have a plan as I snake this pick and roll.

[Dan Woike]

Sometimes he snakes it twice on the same possession. He'll snake one way and then snake back the other way to the point that his screener is like, dude, I just trying to get out of your way, man. And but, but, but like, he snakes, he double snakes, triple snakes a lot. And he rejects picks more than almost any other ball handler in the league. Both of those things to me, events, they come from a place of like, my number one goal here is to score the basketball. Like I'm my. My number one goal is to score. My number two goal is to score. My third goal is to like miss a shot and hopefully get fouled. So I. But either you said the word snake I wanted. That's true. He does it all the time.

[Zach Lowe]

Does it all the time. But like, even with that, like, it felt more of. He leveraged that better. He got defender on his hip and he worked to engage the big more than we saw last year. And I was plugged, as you mentioned. You hit me up, say we're going to talk about Cam Thomas. Decided to get into some, some of the numbers Because I knew I liked a lot of what I saw. Passed on 26 of his direct pick and rolls in 20, 23, 24. That was 62nd of 62 players to run at least a thousand. Just dead last. He, him and Brandon Miller were the only players under 30% on that front.

[Dan Woike]

They, they put it up.

[Zach Lowe]

That jumped up to 37 this year which is still low. But that is within the range of John Morant, Jason Tatum, Luca Donches. They were all around 37. Obviously he is not those guys. But, but in terms of I will look to score but also look for these late low down, these lay down passes, some of these dump offs, some of these lobs. As you mentioned a little bit earlier, he's looking for that more like he is using the snakes and using some of the slower down pacing to really leverage the defense more than you did last year. I think that's positive growth. You mentioned the rim rate. That can be higher. The fact that he is as comfortable scoring in the middle of the floor as he is I think is overall a positive. And to the snake point again a little bit more of like that. Chris Paul, Trey Young, I know you're trying to get back in front of me. Let me just rock, rise up with the super high elevation jumper. I can get fouled on some of those. Like he did get to the line more last year as well.

[Dan Woike]

It's got some bulk and some power.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. So like that, that part was intriguing to me. So the playmaking inch ago, I think he's always going to be a player that the scoring gravity is going to open up the playmaking more than the inverse and I think that's okay. The fact that he's actively making those strides I think is positive. And then very quietly the Cam, Nick Claxton pick a roll any possession featuring that two man action, 1.09 points per possession. That was a little bit ahead of the Chris Paul Wimby two man game. The Luca Lively two man game. Obviously injury stuff with both of those guys. Garland Allen, Dame, Brooke Dame, Giannis Harden, Zoo volume difference. But I was like okay, that is interesting. And I think with the lob thread in particular with the way that Cam likes to probe and snake and all those good things like I think Nick Claxton did ultimately find those pockets of okay, this is when he's actually going to look to make a move and being able to kind of find his find those pockets of space there like that was intriguing to me. So if he can continue to grow as a playmaker in Addition to what we already know about Cam as a score. Like I think he's just going to be a good player. I I want the defense to perk. God, the defense needs to perk up for him. I I will say on that front.

[Dan Woike]

It can't work down. There's no perking down. There's no room down.

[Zach Lowe]

There is no room down. I will say. And this could just be a product of the Nets games that I watched versus like the overall season three. So Nets people can yell at me if you want. It did feel like if we're looking for positives it felt like a better first effort season for Cam Thomas to where I'm going to navigate the screen and try to stay attached. After that we relax the shoulders a little bit. Oh, I defended that action. We're good. If anything else came second side. He's just flat footed. He's behind now he's chasing Brooklyn has to Late switches can be a problem. But like the first effort was at least better. I will take any baby steps we can take because again the scoring is just there like for him to. Oh, go ahead.

[Dan Woike]

No, no. So. So you said a lot. Like the growth was real. Like he. The assist numbers are what they are. His passing was like qualitatively better. And I went back and watched a lot of film to. To remind myself because it's been a while. He missed the end of the season with an injury. But the one word you said that really stuck out to me. Diving in was late and you can pass on 30s. What'd you say? 37% of your his direct pick and rolls in line with Luca Tatum. Whatever. I believe that stat having watched the film. But there are passes that keep the offense moving and there are passes where because all you really want to do is score. You've gotten into traffic, picked up your dribble and you're in jail. And the defense is already rotating back to the guy that you're passing to and the offense kind of stalls out. There's a lot of like pass as last resort pass because I'm in jail passes in that reel. And some of the passes of last resort work because he is a guy who can draw a ton of attention. And even if he passes late and is a last resort, Nick Claxton's open at the rim or Cam Johnson like semi open in the corner and that's good enough for those guys to get a shot up. But I like there's still the mind. But one of my favorite things to watch with Cam Thomas is when he gives the ball to his screener. All he wants to do is get the ball back. Like, he's like, all right, let's go back. Let's go back for a handoff. Let's go back. And it's almost like they're playing two on five, and everything around them is an afterthought for him until he gets to be in jail. And there are a lot of players like that. That's fine. Passing is really, really hard. We were going to do a Jabari Smith Jr. Deep dive, which we're going to have to postpone because we're going too long. And I want to talk about the Pistons, but like, all of these guys, like, you watch them see a half second late and then think, okay, I can make this pass, and then you can't. Because that half second is everything. That half second is the difference between you and a really good passer. And then the Jokic passers see. See it a half second earlier than even that or a second earlier or anticipate or create it. And that half second is everything. And it's hard. There are a lot of guys like that, and it just makes me think, like, I've always been, like, there's something. I've always said there's something here with Cam Thomas, there's something. And I. And he did grow. I just don't have any faith that I still think this something is. This is a guy that can come off the bench on a good team and just go nuts for five minutes while the best players are resting and hopefully carry our offense. I'm not sure that I want him starting at any point on a good team.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't think that's unfair, especially with the defense still need to come along. Like, I think first comp that came to mind, just Jordan Poole in the warriors championship year, where we can just let you go, we can let you rock if you're playing well enough, we'll let you close, and we can kind of go from there.

[Dan Woike]

But he's a much better passer than Cam Thomas. Jordan Poole is a pretty creative passer when he wants to be.

[Zach Lowe]

That's true. And, like, he does need to get to that level, which is why, again, I was impressed by some of the strides. I think part of me being impressed is because, like, the baseline for him was as low as it was for him as a passer in terms of willingness, but, like, the growth was there. I think if you wanted to zoom all the way out, just what is the best version of Cam Thomas? Eventually, he needs to play with multiple players that are just better than him. So you mentioned him coming off the bench. But even if he is a starter, a Cam Thomas that is third in the pecking order and can save some possessions for you late in the clock is a lot better than Cam time. But I'm the son of our offense.

[Dan Woike]

I don't know that he knows how to be that. Like, I don't know that he knows. Like that's what I mean by when he get, when he runs a pick and roll and passes to his screener, all he's thinking about is can I get the ball back? I don't know if he knows how to be like the fourth option and how to, how to, to move and space and do all those things. The other thing I would like to see, he's like a pretty powerful strong guy and he often doesn't play like it like his he loves fade away jumpers and he loves dribbling sideways. And I found a lot of stuff on his clips where he'd get a small guy switched onto him. Like there was one clip with Darius Garland. I'm like, dude, overpower that guy. And instead he sort of dribbles sideways and backwards and takes a 19 footer and makes it. You're like, yeah, but can you. I don't know. Anyway, next topic. I want to, as we close out the the summer, I want to kind of pick a team. I did all my WTF teams last week. Pick a team that's been under the radar and interesting and deep dive it for 10 minutes. And so we're going to do that today with the Pistons. Okay. And I, I've been interested, you know, in how much particularly Bill Simmons has kind of not been super excited about what the Piston. It's been critical of what the Pistons did this off season, particularly with the Duncan Robinson contract, which it turns out is like way partially guaranteed for, for years two and three. Because I look at the Pistons and I'm like, I kind of like what they did and one of the reasons I kind of like what they did is they lost Schroeder. Wildly overpaid by the Kings. No clue what was going on with that contract. And you. Yeah, they lost him, quote unquote without replacing him. But they're replacing him with a guy that I think is one of the most intriguing and important young players in the league now, and that's Jaden Ivey. And so if you look at it as Ivey comes back from injury becomes Dennis Sh. Although I think they're Going to start Ivey and then stagger him with Cade Caris Lavert replaces Hardaway junior Duncan Robinson replaces Malik Beasley. All the young guys get a year older, a year more experience. Like I kind of think that is at worst a wash and I think The Lavert Robinson vs. Hardaway Beasley is actually kind of an upgrade. And if Ivy stays healthy I think they're gonna be better than they were last year.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, like I don't think that's unfair. I think to the Ivy point quickly I want to see what the initiation from him looks like. As you mentioned him kind of being staggered with with Kade in particular because I think the idea for Ivy was that he was eventually going to be a guy that can run some offense for you in addition to can play off of Cade attack bent defenses and just kind of just put defenses in peril because of how well he's able to get to the rim and finish or you want to finish in the perk up. But in theory he ultimately gets there and he looks so much more comfortable operating handoffs to pick and rolls which isn't a problem. But as you're talking about him directly replacing, replacing Dennis Schroeder I think overall as a player he can end up being better as soon as next season. I do think it's going to look different and so I am curious to see like just how Detroit plans to scheme around that or if it just gets better and just ultimately running things offensively. So like that's probably my biggest question mark for me because I think I don't question him being able to play off K like quietly group as a spot up shooter again if the defense is already bent he can attack those who can play make from there. Just what does that look like when he's actually running units but two Carous Lavert and Duncan Robinson in particular like Caris being a legitimate shot creator I think is just a massive difference from what you were getting from Tim Hardaway Jr. Or even Malik Beasley.

[Dan Woike]

And you don't want to. You want, you don't want too much of it but you want just the right amount of it when you need it. And I and and he can do that. It's when it, when it's the too much games unless he's on a heater like but, but I, I think carousel hurts pretty good. Two years, 29 million. Like I think that's a good contract. Contract.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah it's not a contract that's if it doesn't hit it's not a contract that's going to hurt you because of how short term it is. And I think they, I think Detroit left that playoff series saying okay, we need someone else that can get something off the bounce when Kate doesn't have it going. So having cares and even Duncan who isn't a traditional get you off the bounce guy but he has grown as a driver. The two man game with him and Bamboo to bio popped almost immediately once he got real rotation minutes in Miami and he's grown as a passer on top of that. So I'm excited to see what him plus Jalen do Darren is going to look like in that two man game or even Isaiah Stewart who doesn't have like the same like pass on the move juice as during may have but he's just a bone crushing screener and so that's going to be a fun pairing whenever we see it. So I think the offense has gotten better. I don't think you're going to lose a bunch defensively and so I can absolutely see a world in which Detroit is just better. Like one if you just get more Asar Thompson.

[Dan Woike]

Yep, bingo.

[Zach Lowe]

And he again I don't think he ultimately, ultimately qualified but he is, he is an all defense caliber guy already just in terms of the actual talent. If he plays enough minutes and if enough people watch Detroit like he should just be an indie conversation for all defense next year we'll say that. Now I think the defensive foundation is strong. I liked a lot of what J.B. bickerstaff did with the offense last year. Naturally getting more shooting around Cade is helpful, but something that I've noted very early on in the season, it's like, okay, they run in action. There are a lot more handoffs in the middle of their possessions now. Like if we don't have it, we are flashing Jalen Durham to the free throw line. We are flashing Isaiah Stewart to the free throw line. We're getting into a handoff or Chicago action or whatever. We're getting into something else. And as simple as that is just having that added flow, I think it'll be helpful. And if you maintain that with a guy like Duncan Robinson who can bob and weave behind these handoffs, can pull up, can side step, can slip in these nice balance passes. Like I think I'll toss this question to you. Is Duncan Robinson already the was he the third best passer on the the team?

[Dan Woike]

Ooh, so it's Cade. Who's, who's number two? Ivy by default?

[Zach Lowe]

Like would that be Ivy?

[Dan Woike]

I mean I think Duran's a pretty good passer for his position. I think Assar Thompson's a pretty good passer too. And so like I I part of the reason I'm optimistic about the Pistons, aside from liking the offseason moves I guess more than some people did, is I don't know that there's an Amen level leap coming for Asar Thompson because he doesn't have the ball skills quite at the same level and his shooting is even further behind than his brother. But I think there's a potential big leap in his all around game coming and they found something in the playoffs with Durin and Asar Thompson playing off of each other from like the foul line to the dunker spot and crashing the glass. And this is why Ivy to me is the most interesting player on the team and one of the most interesting players players in the conference because the Pistons I think know at this point Cunningham Thompson, Duran is our is a foundational trio for us going forward. We want Ivy to be a fourth guy in our foundational trio. Ivy and Duran are both up for extensions right now. We want to get those guys. We financially there's a world in which we, we can have all four of those guys and it's not apron level crippling for us because we can negotiate hard with them and get them on good numbers. And it requires Ivy to play well enough off of Cade to make it work. And shooting last year it worked. He shot 45% on catch and shoot threes. 35% on pull up threes. Those were massive improvements. Were they real shot looks good to me. I went back and watched it like it looks looks good like I'm I have, I have I don't know, 45% on catch and shoot threes but it looks pretty good.

[Zach Lowe]

Coffee.

[Dan Woike]

It's the, it's the feel. It's the he's gonna have to run a lot of the offense either way and it's the feel stuff in traffic that I think needs to really level up for him. Like he's his turnover rate is still pretty high. He tries like pocket passes and lobs it's just are not there and you're like what did what did you see here? Or he gets sort of out out thought by good defensive big men. They out cat and mouse him in the paint and trick him kind of into throwing bad passes. But he's got speed. He's got a nasty in and out dribble. He started to slow down last year and get guys on his hip and see see you know the the Next step after that wasn't quite there, like making the right pass, but it's coming and you know, I just. But he. It's going to be really interesting. Just a stat that I looked up. With Cade on the floor and Ivy on the floor, they were outscored. But that's not what I'm here to say. I'm here to say he ran 12 and a half pick and rolls per 100 possessions. With Cade on the floor. That's a pretty low number. With Cade off the floor, 43 pick and rolls per 100 possessions. I mean that is as big of a jump in roll as you will see. And he's got to get more efficient in both circumstances. But I just want to see how that blends. And even like you would, there were just little hints of, of can they have a two man game between them? Like if you're hiding your smallest guy on Ivy, can you put them into actions where, where he screens for Cade or even they run a split action with Durin holding the ball and they've screened for each other and you can get Cade in a seismis match. Like there's a lot of stuff to explore with him and I just can't wait to see how it goes because if he hits in the right way and accepts the right kind of rule, there's really something cooking here. I think they're going to be really good next year. And Asar Thompson, I just, just watch out. That's all I'm saying.

[Zach Lowe]

He's gonna be fun. Two quick things I would add just to your point about using Ivy as a screener like that was part of the intrigue for Detroit's offense in their series against New York. They did explore more with double drag. A lot of that was just let's have one of the shooters, that's the first screener but in theory you could have Ivy there and see do you want to switch that first one? Because teams normally do and if you don't, you have a guy trailing Cade and that's never where you want to be with the kind of craft that he has. So that could be fun. And in terms of Ivy inside the ark, he needs a floater badly. There you really. He really needs a floater. He needs to clean up the footwork on that because I think a lot of the him driving in too deep or trying to force these passes is because he's driving past like the floater window and he's not comfortable taking those or he's more comfortable taking like short pull up jumpers than he is with actual floaters. And I think if that comfort grows and if that efficiency comes with it, you'll see more of those passes open up. Like I'm I like that he sees a lot of the stuff or that he's at least seeking it out. But he has to become more of a scoring threat between like that 7 to 12 foot range and I think that'll open up some stuff for him.

[Dan Woike]

Couple of last Pistons notes, they own all their picks and a bunch of second rounders. They owe no picks so they're in good trade position. They're not known as like a super aggressive trade team. That's number one. Number two, I was always a Kate Cunningham booster. I could not believe how quickly people went almost out on him. He's legit. What happened last year is 100 legit. He's an all NBA level player. Maybe not first teams, maybe not second team, but right now he's an all NBA level player. And the reason Asar is so interesting and even Ron Holland off the bench too, who was getting just not ready I think as an offensive player last year, but does a lot of stuff defensively in particular. The reason those guys are really interesting is the Tobias Harris question looms over this team in terms of like do they bring him back after this season when he's a free agent? At what cost do they bring him back? And and how those other young guys perform I think will inform their answer. I bet they would like to bring him back because he just emerged as such a fun sport, spunky, veteran leader for them in a way that I had never really seen him before. But there's, there's something cooking here. And what they did to the Knicks and pushed the Knicks was legit and I just, I can't wait to see particularly how Ivy looks. All right, Nakai stunking, what do we got coming up from you this week?

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, we well, a lot of sports, business, classroom stuff here in Vegas, then head to Indy for W All Star. So a lot of content on that front coming over the next couple of weeks. We're going to be recording the Dunker Spot podcast at some point still. Steve is also out here with doing SBC things so we got to figure out what the schedule is in light of that. But Dunker Spot Podcast is going to be the big thing. Outside of that, doing some writing for Bleacher Report. So if you're trying to get more into the W doing some things on that front, I have a player ranking coming up which I'm sure everyone is going to be incredibly normal about.

[Dan Woike]

But.

[Zach Lowe]

Outside of that it's just watching a bunch of hoops. Just watching a bunch of hoops. Last quick Detroit thing. I would like to see them be a Lori marketing team if that ever comes to a head.

[Dan Woike]

Oh, so that's what a great place to end because I've already done my Lowry market and is now the most intriguing trade option in the entire league. It's all quiet on that front right now, I think. But let's make it loud and go get Larry market into Detroit. I love it. Nakais Duncan, if you want to know what's going on in the NBA and the wnba, what the actual the basketball. The basketball that's being played on the basketball court. Nobody's watching more than the guys. Thank you, bud.

[Zach Lowe]

Thank you.

[Dan Woike]

All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe Show. Time to go mingle in Vegas, maybe watch some summer league basketball. Thanks to Jesse and Jonathan on production. We'll be back later this week. Who knows, maybe we'll get some news between now and then. You never know in the NBA. Can get crazy when just when you think it stopped, it could start up again. We'll see you soon on the Zach Lowe Show. Thanks for listening and or watching. Must be 21 and over and present in select states For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-897777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-H O P E N Y or text Hope NY in New York.