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This episode is brought to you by State Farm. It's cold out. Yes, it's very cold, but basketball season is heating up. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates, and when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you select the right coverage for your home, your car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready when Life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that fits your life and talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln Whether you're watching highlights while parked or heading out for a Drive, the 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid keeps you connected with smart tech that helps tie your on screen and off screen worlds together. So help turn every drive into an opportunity for discovery with a 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid. Learn more at lincoln.com available connectivity, features and functionality vary by model. Package pricing, trials and term lengths vary by model. Video streaming and games are only available while parked.
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Foreign.
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We got Michael Pena from the ringer to go around the NBA. The Knicks rebound from their rock bottom against Dallas the other day by whomping the sad sack Brooklyn Nets, who it feels like haven't beaten the Knicks almost since they moved to Brooklyn. I know that's not true, but sorry Nick Claxton, it's been quite a while. Giannis More troubling comments after yet another Bucks loss or just six and six with Giannis back from injury and the trade deadline is exactly two weeks away. What's going on? What should we read into any of this? And then a deep dive into the weirdest team in the NBA, the Houston Rockets, now dealing with a bad Stephen Adams ankle sprain that's going to keep him out a long time. What is this team? Has any team ever played like this before where their best offense is missing a shot? What does Stephen Adams absence do to all that? He's the best offensive rebounder outside of Mitchell Robinson on Planet Earth. Baxter Holmes from ESPN joins to go inside his mega feature on the sale of the Los Angeles Lakers and the sibling rivalry among the Bus siblings that destroyed their ownership of the team, or at least got it down to 17%, allowing Jeannie Buss to remain a governor for five years. And then Mets corner Holy cow, the Mets. We're back. We're going for it. A lot of stuff happened. That's all coming up after this on the Zach Lowe Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. We got A lot to talk about today, including these guys, the New York Mets. We're back baby. But we're not going to start with that. This is a basketball show after all. Michael Pina, how are you sir?
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I'm doing great, Zach, how are you?
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Oh baby. Irrational fandom. I really missed it. I really missed it. Okay, let's bounce around the NBA before we take a deep dive into the strangest team in the league. Are you ready to bounce around some news?
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C
Let's do it.
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Do you care that the Knicks followed up their players only meeting slash? Maybe it was just a chat. According to Josh Hart. I don't know where we draw what has to happen for it to be a players only meeting. Do you have to tell everyone else explicitly? Get the hell out of here. Lock the door. Search for bugs. If this is MSG guys. So you guys sweep for bugs and kick everybody out? I don't know. Do you care that they beat the Knick but beat the crosstown rival Nets by 4,000 points last night at MSG?
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I don't care. I don't think they care that much either. Based on the comments that were made after the game by Carl Towns, by Jalen Brunson, by Landry Shamit who made six, three, six or six. I think from my three point line basically just kind of tamping it down making not trying to make too much of a big deal out of the fact that they beat the Brooklyn Nets, one of the worst teams in the Eastern Conference in a game that they should win. And it doesn't change the fact that they're 3 and 9 in their last 12 games or whatever it is. But I will say that if they did lose that game after the Mavericks rock bottom performance, I would say like anything was on the table so far as changes, big picture changes that could have happened over the next several days. So a win is important in that regard. But no, it's not changing like any big picture things for them. I don't think.
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I wouldn't. Despite the drama and the noise and all of this and cats limbs flailing all about and hitting people in various sensitive spots in seemingly every game including the high kick last night. Was it Claxton that he almost got with a Rockettes level, not to use another James Dolan property but a Rockettes level high kick, I don't think anything super seismic would have happened. You never know though. I said before I like that there's been some buzz about like are they. Is there a cat non Giannis cat possibility trade wise it's just so hard with this salary and their win now mandate and Mike Brown just got there. I will say I thought they looked pretty good last night. The Brunson Cat 2 man game looked like they leaned into it in the right ways. The Bridges Cat 2 man game, they leaned into that in the right ways and got Bridges going a little bit. You mentioned Shamit. I think it's interesting that Clarkson is now out of the rotation basically for meaningful minutes or to the fringes of it. Shambit has kind of supplanted him. You can see Mike Brown trying to land on like, okay, if I'm doing a nine man rotation in a playoff game, who's in it right now? And he's made some interesting choices. I don't know if you saw Tuesday's episode. I smacked the gavel down and I said the Wolves have won. The cat trade got some feedback that was like unfriendly feedback about that from some interested parties. And look, I understand like if the Knicks win the championship, as Brian Winhorse says, when you win the championship, every trade is an A plus. You never have to apologize for anything. If they win the championship and Towns has a good finals and makes a big shot, that clip is going to come back to haunt me and it's going to look foolish. I'm just saying right now at this moment we can do this thing where we hedge and hedge and say, oh, in two years and three years and four years, you never know and this and that. And there's truth to that. I'm, I still, I, I, I stand by it. I think the Wolves won the cat trade. What's your take?
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I think it's fair. I would say the biggest shots Cat hit in a Knicks uniform were probably Game 6 against the Pistons. When he hit those two shots near the end, that kind of kept. I think that was game six. I can't remember. Maybe it was the Hart foul on Tim Hardaway Jr. Game. I don't recall. But he had some big shots in crunch time.
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But that's crazy ones too. Like cr Easy shots.
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Yeah, very. That was a nip and tuck series. Very competitive. Could have gone either way, I think. And so in that regard, he was big. He was pretty big in the Celtics series in some ways, to your point. Dante DiVincenzo and Julius Randle have been pretty, very good for the Minnesota Timberwolves. And I think the Timberwolves are a, I don't know if they're. Yeah, I think that they're a better team also. So I would say that it's fair.
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To.
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C
Say that just on a basketball level that the Minnesota Timberwolves won that trade. And then when you throw contracts into it, it's kind of a no brainer.
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We'll see. I mean, look, it was flirting with win, win. Because I do think Kat as a talent play and as a shooting play is just undeniable. I mean, he's taken a lot of flack for referring to himself as the greatest shooting big man of all time. It's either him or Dirk. And we'll see. You know who else comes along at the end of the day? Like what, what do you, how do you even quantify Jokic, who just shoots well from every range? I don't know, but we'll see. Good on the Knicks for winning that game. And as, as bad as they've been in their last whatever games, they're still third in the East. Yay east, the default conference of the NBA also in the East. It's, it's, it's starting to become an every game and every loss thing where Giannis makes comments that I'm like, what, what's happening here? So I this. And then it got picked up by the media afterwards after their, after two games ago when they, I believe, won. I don't remember who they played. Let me look it up now. Yeah, they beat the Hawks. Someone asked them, are you going to be, you know, how confident are you that you're going to be with the Bucks for the rest of the season? Trade deadline is two weeks from today. Michael Pina. And he said, I don't know. I take it day by day. Okay, cool. Like I just. Whatever, whatever. Like I understand. Like what is he supposed to say? Right? Like what is he supposed to say? Because it is in theory, not entirely his decision. He is correct that he, he, he in a previous question, that same interview was asked about teams sort of holding off on other smaller medium sized trades in, in, in the event to, to have their assets in the event that Giannis asks out. And he said, I can't control that. I can't control this, I can't control that. I don't know. I don't know is a. Is still a somewhat troubling answer. And then they get shellacked by the Thunder last night and yeah, they didn't have Kevin Porter Jr. Who they're not going to have for a while. By the way, Doc Rivers after the game says he's not going to play anytime soon. He's got an oblique strain, I can tell you that. But we don't know how long he'll be out. And by the way, this is a guy, maybe the most marginal player in NBA history, whom a team has pinned, like, massive amounts of their hopes on, ever. Because if you talk to people privately, publicly, around the Bucks, like, oh, we gotta wait to see, like, when KPJ and Giannis get some real time together, like, that's. That's what we're waiting for. And now he's coming off the bench and now he's hurt. But more than that, Giannis's comments after the game, we're not playing hard. Not the first time he said that. We aren't doing the right thing. We're not playing to win. We're not playing together. Our chemistry is not there. Guys are being selfish, trying to look for their own shots instead of looking for the right shot for the team. Guys are trying to do it on their own. It just keeps going. I'm not the guy that will yell and cuss his teammate out and demand the ball. I've never done that in my career. But I feel like I've played with teammates that kind of understand the gravity that I can cause for our team and how I create for my teammates. But maybe for some reason I don't understand, maybe because we're young, maybe because we're not playing well, maybe because guys think it's their turn, they want to carry the team on their back and try to turn this around. I really don't get it. I really don't. I don't. Like, I don't even know what he's talking about. Do you know what he's talking about? Like, is he mad that Cole Anthony played for the first time in ages and took a whole bunch of shots and had five turnovers? Because his usage rate is borderline number one in the league, where it's been at every peak season, his MVP seasons, all of that. I never watched the Bucks and feel like, man, AJ Green is really getting them up today. Like, he's hijacking the offense and Kyle Kuzma is. It's like, it's Kyle time. Like, I don't. It's every game now, we get these strange comments from Giannis, like, he doesn't know quite what to say anymore on these endless questions. I don't think he's going to get traded before the deadline. I have said consistently I'm not closing the door on it because in the event that they just lose and lose and lose, I think anything is possible. Most, at least half the teams that would be in on Giannis in the off season, I think would be in on Giannis now. I think more could be in on the off season depending on if certain teams underperform in the playoffs or conclude that, yeah, maybe we're not as good as we think we are, but there's an argument to be made that their leverage, the Bucs leverage, would be just as good now with a team trading for him, getting him for a playoff run or an end of season run, whatever it is, versus in the summer. I'm actually less convinced that's the case now than I was two months ago. There's a very cogent argument to be made that it is just flat better for the Bucks to rip this band aid off, start the rebuild, recoup whatever draft assets they can get. Getting their own picks back is going to be a little tougher than just trading Giannis for a package of picks, period. The door still is a jar to me. I saw Windhorse on NBA Countdown last night, said something about the whole league looks at this as a divorce waiting to happen. That's 100% true. I guess it doesn't matter what the whole league looks at this as, it just matters what Giannis looks at this as. And he said, I'm never requesting a trade. I'm never going to do it. Doc Rivers has said over and over again in his trademark incredulous how dare you even suggest that tone that he's never requested a trade. So I guess he's never going to request a trade. But these comments after every game are basically like the team stinks and I'm not happy. I don't know what to do with this. What are you doing with this? How should we deal with this?
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C
I mean, it's like he's not requesting a trade, but it's like on a technicality that he's making that statement because he's making scorched earth comments like basically calling his teammates stupid after a loss where, you know, I watched that game and I also didn't really understand. I woke up this morning to you texting me to look at the comments that he made and I didn't, I wasn't able to kind of connect those statements with what I saw. I mean they were playing the Oklahoma City Thunder and granted the Thunder were banged up, of course, but like a lot of the turnovers that you saw, I mean it's the Oklahoma City Thunder, they still are an exceptional defense and it's very difficult to, you know, once you get run off the three point line and you're asked to make a play, particularly the guys that they have on that team. You know, there will be bad pass turnovers, they will get stripped. That's just what's going to happen. So I, I don't know what the expectations were there, but I mean, I feel like these are just unnecessary. And if he really wanted to stay in Milwaukee, we've said this a million times, he would just make a statement about how he wanted to be here, he was going to be here. He's committed to the Milwaukee Bucks organization long term. He will sign an extension when the day comes that offer it. And that just hasn't happened. And it hasn't happened. It's a pattern throughout his entire career where he doesn't make the long term commitment to Milwaukee and kind of leverages the extension for them to be active with personnel moves. So I don't know what to make of this. I'm with you. I don't think that he will be traded before the deadline or, you know, it's possible, but I would not bet that that will happen. And I also think that the teams that will disappoint inevitably in the postseason, that could be Giannis Suters, would be more willing to give up things. And it's also easier to make transactions in the off season. So that's what I would think is going to happen if I had to predict. But this like mellow drama is just, it's grating and it's kind of annoying. And I will say one last thing, like one of the reasons that the Milwaukee Bucks are so bad, like they're really dominant when he's on the court. Typically incredible on off numbers, but like one of the reasons that they're bad is that he either doesn't play at all or he's on a minutes restriction. And if you watch last night's game, like he's on the bench in the last five minutes, it's a 15 point game. He just doesn't play the last 5ish minutes of the game. Shai is on the court playing, scoring his 40th point. So that stuff is like, it's not his fault that he's on the menace restriction, but it's like that's a reality of the situation. They are terrible when he's on the bench. So, yeah, I don't know. I expect him to get traded this summer. I think that that's inevitable.
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They're not good enough. They haven't been good enough the whole season. They're starting Gary Harris right now, which is this, like, I Love Gary Harris. He's had a nice career in the NBA before all the injuries really took his legs out from under him. He was Quite a good 3 and D kind of role player. Great fit with Denver before they traded him. They're 18 and 25. They're still 11th in the East. They're 6 and 6 since Giannis came back and they just don't have Miles Turner has been eh. And again, their choices are. I guess there's three choices. Trade him now, which they don't want to do. And I don't even think. I'm not even sure Giannis wants to. I think the cleanest solution for him from a PR perspective and maybe from a destination perspective is get to the end of the season. He can't actually sign an extension until October, I think, but obviously they can begin discussing it or whatever, feeling it out and if he doesn't sign an extension or indicates that he's not going to. He hasn't demanded a trade, but he's effectively done the same thing as demanding a trade. But there's a little wiggle room semantically where you can say I never demanded a trade and then it opens up and they can trade him wherever, but they're just not good enough now. They're not going to be good enough now and they. So choice one is trade them now. Choice two is revisited in the summer. Choice three is dig the hole deeper. Dig the hole like you're already 50ft underground with Miles Turner and Dane Lillard's bad mad dead money and all the picks you've traded. You've got one tradable pick right now and you. And they're still. They're still projecting. We want to buy and upgrade the team around Giannis and we've done all the names and John Moran had another great game last night. Whatever. I don't really love that fit for them and I've talked about that. I'm sure they would love to thread the needle and upgrade without including that pick. Take on money that's so unwanted from another team but still attached to a talented ish player that fits that they can do it with just Kuzma and Portis, by the way. Kuzma and Portis, I don't know, like the third and fifth best players on the Bucks right now. It's. It's not. Whatever it is. I mean, I don't know how you want to rank Rollins and Green and whatever. It's. It's not like they're nothing to this current Bucks team. Not even close to that Portis is an annual six man of the year candidate. I don't know that they should dig the hole any deeper. Nobody thinks they should really dig the hole any deeper to save whatever exists of this team. And I don't even know what he's mad about. Is he mad that Thanasis took two shots and took a shot, one shot in two minutes last night? Is Thanasis his usage rate at the core of this? I don't even know what he's mad about when I look at the box score. He even. I gotta. I gotta say this. He even. He's gotta study up on his Kobe Bryant history a little bit. Because he said at the end, they told me there's this thing that's called the White Swan and the Black Swan that you've got to be the Black Swan to be more aggressive and demand the ball. It's something I haven't done that I've never done my whole career. Maybe I've got to do it more, dude. Black Swan, White Swan. That's Pau Gasol and Kobe Bryant, man. You got to know. Come on. That's like. That's like recent NBA history. 101. We're doing. We're doing Swans now.
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C
We're doing.
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Is he mad? Pete Nance took seven shots. Shout out to Pete Nance. He's playing really well.
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C
Yeah, he's been playing well. I don't know. It's a total mess. The dig deeper scenario. I'm fearful I would not count it out based on how this front office has behaved over the past, I don't know, 6ish months, maybe a little bit longer. I would call them desperate, but a desperate team is not in 11th place with no chance to make the playoffs. Even if they get to the play in, which is not a guarantee right now, being competitive in it winning two games, I just don't see it. So it's a pull the plug, rip the band aid off situation for me.
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I guess we all know their reasoning, right? And it's not crazy when you start saying it out loud. We have the best player in the conference. Everyone in this conference other than Detroit who's cruising along to the number one seed is beatable. We frankly don't think Detroit is that scary, given their lack of shooting and the fact that we have the best player in the series. I think that would be wildly underestimating a really good Pistons team. But just say, and like, what? Give up? Put us in a series against any of these teams. We can beat them. And I Say this all the time about the playoffs. That may well be true. But A, you've got to get through the play in right now, which is no guarantee. You might have to do it from a positional, from a position of disadvantage or you're in the nine and 10 spots and you got to win on the road. And B, I said this about the Lakers for like each of the last four years. It's super cool to say you can go toe to toe with any team in a playoff series and who knows? Punches chance to do that two, three, four times in the playoffs, in seven game series is like a completely different animal. Anyway, enough bucks. I'm done with the bucks. Black Swan. Get the rent. Rent Black Swan. It's a good, it's a good plane movie. It's, it's, it's, you know, Natalie Portman, Mila Kunis, good performances. Anyway, last piece of news, the revisiting the Jimmy Butler thing, which I talked about the other day. I'm stunned at how much funereal whatever eulogies for the warriors that have come out in the last couple of days like, well, it's over now. The end of an era. It's been over. If by it's over means they can't contend anymore, that was already over. That window has been shut since the beginning of this season when there was a glimmer. I said I'm opening the latch at least. I didn't even open the window. I opened the latch and then it slammed shut. It's over. Steve Kerr told you it was over. He said it out loud that it's over and it's sad that Jimmy Butler got hurt. It's sad that I don't see any kind of trade that saves their season, even one that sends Butler's 50, whatever million dollar salary out and brings back a player of that caliber. And speaking of Giannis and teams that could go after Giannis, they'll never have the best package. But if they get to the off season or even, even now, frankly, Kaminga, all the young players and all the picks, three and a half Golden State first round picks, their picks have more value than the typical team getting honest picks because the team around him is old. They will, they would try for sure. And that just raises the question of A, how many teams can beat that offer? I think it's quite a few. And B, if they have to put Draymond in that deal or Jimmy in that deal and they put all the young players in, is what they have even good enough? Like Curry, Giannis and Like whatever is left over. Quentin Post and Trace Jackson, Davis and one of Butler who's injured and Draymond who's aging too. Is that even good enough? And that really that good enough question has hovered over the post 2022 championship warriors where they get dinged a lot by their fan base for not going super all in around Steph, for being a little bit too precious about the two timelines thing, which was an accident, not a plan, and hasn't really borne enough fruit to be what they hoped it would be and was never going to bear enough fruit. This was always the most likely outcome of this, was that the young guys aren't good enough in time for the old guys and when the old guys leave, the young guys aren't good enough to be the foundation of a great team. That's generally what happens to aging teams who luck into high draft picks, especially when you pick James Wiseman number two. But I'd like, It's not like they haven't tried. I would love to go back and be like, what is the actual missed opportunity here? Where they should have gone all in and put all the young players and all the picks in and didn't because they tried for Anunobi and Siakam, they tried for market, they tried for Paul George, they got Jimmy Butler, they tried for Durant, and then they finally get Butler at a low cost. And, and you know, I don't know what the, what the missed opportunity was, but the marketing thing is, is an interesting example because if, if, if they had actually gone all in for him, they could have at least made the Jazz think about it. And all in is the same stuff we're talking about for Giannis. That's what the Jazz were going to be demanding for market. And that leaves you with the same question you have now about like, is it actually good enough? So I don't know what the missed opportunity is. I know that this was always the most likely outcome, a sort of honorable goodness at the end of the Steph Curry era. They're not going to trade Steph, they're not going to tank. These are non starter, non options. Stop talking about them. But you can have the funeral. It's already over. It's been over. I don't know, was there any hope left that they could like actually win the West?
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C
No. Not big enough, not athletic enough, not young enough, not deep enough. I think that, you know, you bring up Giannis for them, I mean, the package that they have would not be the most impressive. I agree with you. But Giannis will have a say here because he has leverage because of his contract. And if he says to a team that wants to trade for him, I'm going to be there a year, you might not as well, I'm going to be a free agent after that.
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A
And it's better what, what they have is better than whatever the Knicks have as currently constituted as another team that Giannis could theoretically, according to the reporting, at least by Sean's left, try to leverage his way to right.
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C
So if he says, you know, I really want to play with Steph Curry, I would love to live in the Bay Area, me and Thanasis, we'll get a two bedroom apartment, it'll be incredible. Like, then the warriors are in the mix for sure. And at that point though, the follow up is like, is that good enough? And I think that that is a totally fair question and frankly, no, I don't think it is good enough. I think that, you know, even if Draymond were to still be there, Steph is just very old and injury prone. And we just talked about Giannis's low key health history and moderate concern. And so you look at the spurs, the Rockets, the Thunder, I'm probably blanking on another up and coming team in the Western Conference that just has so much more depth and youth and athleticism and to get through a regular season in today's league, that's what you need. Those are the ingredients that you have to have and I don't think that the Golden State warriors would be able to build that out. So Steph and Giannis would be a lot of fun to watch and they could aspire to win a championship, but I don't see that in the cards.
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A
I mean, your reason for doing it would almost be less we think we're good enough to win the championship and more it's freaking Giannis and water Kaminga Podzemski, who I think has had a sneaky good season, by the way, Moody. And four first round picks amounting to for us, we can get a top five player, top three player in the door and maybe set us up to have cap space. Like I could see the argument, but you lose all the optionality when you trade all the other stuff and all the picks anyway. Warriors, it sucks. It just sucks. But this was always what was going to happen. Most likely, barring. Barring a miracle. Okay, let's talk about a team that actually has the assets to try to make a run at Giannis, doesn't seem to have any plans to now, has never seemed to have any plans to during this fraud season for the Bucks. But again, if they fail in the playoffs, they lose in the first round or get smashed in the second round, who knows? And that's the weirdest team in the entire NBA. The Houston Rockets. I was thinking about what to talk about today because I'm kind of trade talked out a little bit and I'm like, well what, what, what team have I not done a real proper 20 minute deep dive on? And I keep talking about the Rockets and the sides and like ranking them in the West. Like I haven't actually sat down and looked at this weirdo team who has made an entire offense out of missing shots and then rebounding them. They are 10 and 9 in their last 19 games and they've sort of fallen out of the can they win the title discourse where they were firmly in that at the beginning of the season. Van Vliet's out the entire season. Well, actually I shouldn't say that. There's a little, there's some flickers. There's some flickers. He can come back this season, but he has been out the entire season. Eason's been in and out. He's in again. Adams is now out for a while with the grade three ankle sprain. It's a huge loss for them. Capella is there. This is why they have Capella. We'll get there. They're still 26 and 15, fourth in the west, tied with the Nuggets in the last column for third. They are top five on both ends of the floor despite this sort of meandering last 20 games. Third in offense, fifth in defense. They are the weirdest team in every possible sense. Their offense can look clogged and slow and aimless and directionless and then they score or they miss and then they score or they miss twice and then they score again. It doesn't look good, but the results are good even within like a micro possession basis. And the weirdness really peaks in. They are one of these teams when you see a team like this every couple of years where on defense they are elite at forcing you into mid range shots. They don't allow a lot of threes and they don't allow a lot of shots at the rim. They allow the second most. They allow, I think, the second most mid range shots in the entire league. Analytically darling defensive team. And yet on offense they are the exact kind of team that they try to force offenses to be with their own defense. They are 29th in threes, 20th in shots at the rim and second in mid range shots. They're like a bizarro funhouse mirror of a team. And it's so weird because I don't know how you can be first in offensive rebounds by a country mile and be second to last in threes and 20th in shots at the rim. Aren't offensive rebounds supposed to lead to kick out threes even if you don't have three point shooters? And more than that, aren't they supposed to lead to immediate shots at the basket? This is such a strange team. And yet all the numbers suggest. Hey, they never left the conversation about title contenders. Where do you want to start with? Did you just want to start like right away? Can they win the title or what's interesting to you about them?
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C
Yeah, I mean that's a really good big picture question. I love how you frame them as the weirdest team in the NBA. In trying to kind of synthesize my thoughts about them, I still would label them a championship contender. Any team that is.
- [30:41]
B
What are they?
- [30:41]
C
Fourth in net rating, top five on both ends of the floor. They have two all stars probably in Shangun and Kevin Durant. They just, they profile as a championship contender, but like they're also this team where I know, I know what all the other championship contenders are and I know how good they can be. And I feel like I've seen their best basketball and with Houston it's just like there's so much more there to either discover or they are just flawed, fatally in a way that will show up in the postseason and kill them. And I can't really figure out which side I fall on with that. And the Adams injury is like, I mean they're really good when Shanghun's at the five offensively and you know, net rating wise and all that sort of stuff. But like Stephen Adams is just like the personification of their identity on the basketball court. And he's a big reason why they're so good at protecting the rim. Their zone defense has been, you know, with a little bit of three point luck, really good in the double big lineups. When he's on the floor, obviously they grab offensive rebounds at. I mean they lead the league still when he's off the court, I think. But when he's on the court, it's like 45% or something. It's just absolute monstrosity. You can't deal with it. So it's just a huge loss and it almost changes like, I don't know, I don't want to say it changes their identity. I think they'll play similarly because they have no choice. But he's just, he's huge. And if he's out until late March or April, where will Houston be in the standings then? Will they be in the play in? If you're in the play in, it's just, I'm sorry, you're probably not going to go to the NBA Finals. That'll be exceptionally difficult. So I am more pessimistic today than I was even a week ago before he fell on his ankle. And there's all these other things that we can get into about how, why they are weird but just zooming out, that is really what my focus is on. And yeah, there's a lot to like but there's just a lot of flaws with this team that I just don't know will. I don't think they will translate well into playoff basketball.
- [33:07]
A
Yeah, Adams has been unbelievable. He's on my sixth man of the year medium to shortlist. They're plus 12 per hundred possessions with him on the floor, plus three and a half with him on the bench. He's a game changer for them. I also think that this is going to you mentioned things to discover but they are still going to play. Similarly, they still crash like all hell no matter who is on the court. Their guards and wings are elite offensive rebounders. Akogi is like a basher, Eason is a basher. They're still going to play like that. But I don't think they can count on as many games with like a 50% offensive rebounding rate as a fail safe for them. And I think they want to go on that discovery phase. So like the Durant sengun two man game, it happens a lot. It should be like this unswitchable foolproof play despite the lack of shooting around it. I think they want to discover more about that. Durant and Amen Thompson, their pick and roll chemistry both ways. Durant screening for him and then flaring out for threes and vice versa. That's coming along. The Durant, Reed shepherd, same thing both ways. Reed screening for Durant, Durant screening for Reed. Unpredictable size difference. Both can shoot. That's coming along. Lean more into that. I think they want to play faster. I think one of the reasons they're weird is because they're big and bulky and they have a very old superstar in Kevin Durant. But they also have players particularly Reed shepherd and Amen Thompson who when you watch them together in Easton 2 are like meant to fly up and down the floor. So there's a little bit of sort of yin yang stylistically. And then, like, you know, Eason's back. That's a big deal. Finney Smith is back, really sort of easing his way into being back. But I remember when they started Eason over Akogi on Christmas, and I was like, that's. That's probably the lineup, because as good as Akogi has been, they never envision him as a starter, and teams are never going to guard him no matter how many corner threes he hits. They need a little bit more dose of shooting in that spot. That lineup is only played 52 minutes together. They're plus 46 in those 52 minutes with Amen Eason, Durant, Jabari Smith Jr. And Shen Gun together. And then they're also going to have to play Jabari Smith Jr. At center a little bit in this stretch without Adams. And I think one of the things they want to lean into with that group is can we switch a lot on defense, and if so, can we force more turnovers? Because this is. This is the white whale for this team. When you win the offensive rebounding game by this much as they do, you are sending a message much like Joe Mazzulla with the Celtics, like, we want to win the possession game. We want every game to be. You look at the box score, free throws even, and we took 10 more shots than the other team because that's how we want. That's how we want to win. They're doing their job as rebounders, but on offense, they are 29th in turnover rate. Only Portland has turned it over more. And on defense, they're 23rd at forcing turnovers. If they can get that equation closer to neutral, the possession game becomes a weapon for them. They're just such a weird team, though, man. It. It. It really is. It really is strange. And by the way, I remember it, there was a lot of like, oh, the Fred Van Vliet thing will be a blessing in disguise for Houston. That was the phrase that came over. Did you say that?
- [36:28]
C
I might have. Yeah, I might not.
- [36:30]
A
And in some ways that's borne out because Amen Thompson has taken on a larger offensive role and he's averaging almost 19 points a game. Reed shepherd has had to play. I think he probably needs to play even more than he's playing now because of the shooting and playmaking that he provides. So they've discovered that he's a real guy. Also in the sixth man of the year conversation, maybe, but the idea that they were going to be better off or it was a blessing in disguise. When you trade for Kevin durant at age 37, even when you trade as little as you did, you are trying to win the championship immediately. And there was zero question that no matter how good Reed Shepard was and how much Amin Thompson developed, they were not going to have better championship odds without Fred Van Vliet running their crunch time offense, organizing them, doing whatever than they would with him and maybe he comes back. But to answer my own question, I kind of, I would say I, I think they would need a lot of luck to actually win the championship. I would put them soundly behind Healthy Thunder and Healthy Nuggets, which don't exist right now on either side. But in the championship hierarchy.
- [37:45]
C
I think that's totally fair. And going back to the comment you made about Fred, I think obviously where you see him missing is the high turnover rate for sure, the crunch time offense, which I'd love to talk about more because I think that that is one of their great Achilles heels and just really problematic. When I went through this morning and watched a ton of their crunch time possessions offensively, tell me what you saw. I mean it's just such a mess. It's both a mess. It's like bumper car basketball and then also it is so formulaic and so predictable and so just like the defense knows exactly what's coming which is probably going to be Kevin Durant high pick and roll or maybe with Alperin Chagoon usually or Kevin Durant's drawing too because the defense is just unafraid of him swinging the ball and they know that they trust their ability to rotate behind the play or Alper and Shangun two man game with usually Durant honestly and I just think that that predictability is it has not worked out well for them and you know their spacing is really bad and what they count on usually is.
- [39:17]
A
You know.
- [39:19]
D
A lot of.
- [39:20]
C
Isolation basketball with either KD or Sengun, Jabari Smith being counted on to hit wide open shots, which sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't, sometimes he's run off the three point line and has to hit a two dribble pull up and that's your offense. But there are plays where like there was a play in the spurs game where you know Sengun gets it at the elbow and you know Kevin Durant is denied on a DHO and Sengun basically doesn't know what to do and there's like nine seconds on the shot clock and he looks over at Jabari and Jabari sprints over, takes the ball and he hits a step back mid range jumper over Luke Cornett. But it's like that wasn't, that's not what IME Udoko wants. He knows that's not sustainable offense. And I don't like when I watch them play throughout the basketball game, their half court offense, they'll run stuff like, they'll run things that can get Ahmed Thompson moving like Amin Thompson will rip screen and dive. He will, you know, they'll run a flare screen for Reed shepherd that shifts the defense and then he can flip it back to Amen and Amen can drive a closeout and he's so he's got the quickest first step in the league so he can get into the pain at will, but they don't really do that. And so Amen is sort of in these situations where he's got to go up against a loaded up defense when he does have the ball and he does the, the Euro step or the D cell and it's just a contested paint shot outside the restricted area.
- [40:51]
B
And he's.
- [40:52]
C
Sometimes he makes them and that's great. Sometimes they crash the offensive glass and get the rebound, obviously, but I just, I don't like it at all. I don't think that there's a lot of creativity. I feel like they are almost playing not to make mistakes and deferring quite a bit to Durant, which granted, he's terrific, but I did not anticipate him having this large of a load this season, particularly in crunch time. And yeah, so that's.
- [41:18]
B
That.
- [41:18]
C
That's like a big concern to me. How do you, how do you feel about their crunch time offense? Well, I do.
- [41:23]
A
I have been worried since Van Vliet's injury about Durant's minutes and his load at his age. And I still am. He's playing a ton of minutes. He's like not uncommon to see his minute total in a game start with a four and you're like, ooh, that's dude, it's December, January. Let's take a little easy. They had a possession against the spurs the other day in a game they won like five minutes left. People can look it up. Amen. Thompson had the ball near the top of the three point line. Kevin Durant was being denied by somebody close to half court and he just stood there and did nothing. Amen. Thompson was dribbling around. Nobody else moved. Literally nobody moved. This is a close game with five minutes left. And he was like, all right, I guess it's on me then. Like, Kevin, you're Not moving. No one else is moving. And he just drove headlong at Stefan Castle like a bull trying to charge a matador and just like crashed into Stefan Castle and lost the ball. I was like, that's what you got with five minutes left and look like the spacing is what it is. They don't have their point guard. I just, this is why I won't pick them against the healthy Thunder or a healthy Nuggets team and maybe a healthy spurs team too. But they can go toe to toe with those teams. The thing on the Thunder is, I think you could say, well, our recipe against a team like that is we just beat the hell out of them with our size and rebounding. And I think that's less applicable when Hartenstein is healthy. And you saw in that game the other day, now Houston might have been on a back to back when they got blown out by the Thunder. I can't remember. If you have an offense that doesn't move the ball that the Thunder can load up on and start to anticipate where the ball is going to be and start to tilt their defense toward you, you're dead. You're not going to score on them and they're just going to start taking the ball from you. And Denver is Denver. What the Rockets do have are a bundle of trade assets still. They have the net swap rights next year, which Looms is one of the biggest chips in the league and probably will define a little bit of what the Nets do this off season. They have multiple draft assets from Phoenix in 2027 and then 2029 as well. I don't think they're going to do anything big at this trade deadline. I just don't like, I think any of the sexy huge names. I don't think they're really super in on right now. Again off season, who knows? I could see them trying to do something small to add some kind of depth piece. I just. And they, they always have guys, they check in on guys bigger, like medium to bigger guys that are not like Giannis and Morant or whatever. I don't know if they're going to be able to get any of those guys. I, I tried to look at small names for them. It's. It's like guys you can get it that are basically minimum guys are a little bit higher than that. You know, if Adams is just not. Is he gonna be out for a long time and, and be iffy for the playoffs. Could they get like Marvin Bagley or Day Ron Sharp or like a big offensive rebounder like that, Sharp's gonna have a mark. It wouldn't surprise me if the Nets actually got like kind of a bad but still a first for Day Ron Sharp. He has a team option next year for 6 million. I could see them netting a first for him. And I do think the Nets will sell as on as many of these vets as they can. I thought like could they get fema, Hay, Luke just to have another guy who could shoot like these are the kinds of things I'm talking about. Offseason gets interesting for them. I think this is probably going to be more or less their team but you never, you never know. They're always active, they're always poking around. It's a really good team. I think they would need some breaks to come out of the West.
- [44:52]
C
I don't think. Yeah, I mean look like the Denver Nuggets when healthy. The Oklahoma City Thunder when healthy are exceptional. I did think that the win, how they beat the spurs was encouraging coming off of some of the losses that they've had recently. But I think like one of the other things that has bothered me a little bit about this team and they've had injuries for sure but like I just thought their defense would have would be like second best, not as good as the Thunder, but like non Thunder division, arguably, arguably the best defense in the NBA and that has not happened at all. I know they rank really high but.
- [45:35]
A
Over the last fifth with Toronto, right.
- [45:38]
C
But since like December 1st, I think they're like 11th in defensive rating. They've had some real clunkers and when you watch them they still make, you know, mistakes at the point of attack. They'll have someone double when the weak side defender has no idea that that is actually the strategy. So no, no help the helper there. They've got a lot of three point luck as I said earlier with the zone that has been successful and they play a lot of zone when they're double big still. And they lost two games against the Portland Trailblazers back to back recently and I think it was after the first one. I can't remember but IME Odoka called their game plan discipline horrendous. And part of it was he specifically cited Denny Avdia, who Tyson said the Zebras were the reason that Denny had such a great game, which is like ridiculous.
- [46:34]
A
It also had been a while since I heard refs referred to as zebras. They don't wear stripes in the NBA. But I love it. I love a good old school callback to how we used to talk about these things.
- [46:43]
C
Yeah, but like he specifically said IME that, you know, we didn't force him. There were guys that we, we didn't force to the right direction. And it's like everyone around the NBA knows that Denny Abdia wants to get to his right hand. And you watch that game and they let Denny Abd get to his right hand over and over and over again. And it's like clear that the coaching staff told them that is not what we want to do. And it happens. So I think like there's just elements of their defense that are frustrating to me. I don't know if that's fair if you, if you feel the same way or similar about their defense. But like when your offense is what it is and is really worrisome in crunch time in particular and in the fourth quarters of games and you play so slow, like 25% of their shots are with seven or fewer seconds of the shot clock. And some of that is offensive rebounding, but some of that is just because they play really slow. But you need your defense to be elite. And I think for some reason I don't call, I don't refer to them or think of them as an elite defense. I don't know. What do you think?
- [47:48]
A
I don't worry about their defense. I think it's fun. I understand every team's going to make mistakes and they have some youth to them. They have some guys you can go after. I actually think Sengun has made quite a lot of progress on defense. He's tough, he's smart. They're definitely, they're definitely hiding him or shifting his assignment much less than they used to. I don't, I don't worry much about their defense. Yeah, they're really good. Are they good enough? I don't know. I do want to say one, one quick thing but. Oh, we need zebras. You know, I was thinking like they wear gray. All gray. All the all gray animals are like big, big fat animals. We can't call the refs like rhinos or hippos or elephants because the refs are all in very good. We need to think of an updated zebra for the non striped era. The refs in the NFL I believe are still zebras. But the NBA refs are not zebras anymore. They gotta, we gotta come up with something new. I just want to touch on one Rocket Singh real quickly. I feel like maybe this is me being an old man. Maybe it's that fans don't care as much because the threes, the volume of Threes has changed scoring totals in the modern era so much. I feel like we're just sort of fast forwarding by Kevin Durant passing Dirk Nowitzki in the scoring. All time leaders. He's now sixth all time. He's going to pass Michael Jordan either this year or next year. Then he's going to pass Kobe after that. I don't think he's going to catch Karl Malone. Absent the Achilles tear, Kevin Durant was very likely going to be the third leading scorer in the history of the NBA. He might end up fourth now. And I get that. We can't just pause life to be like, oh, he's now ninth and eighth and James Harden just moved up to 11th and has 28,000 something points. But like Kevin Durant, there are 10 guys in the history of the NBA with 25,000 points, 7,500 rebounds and 4,500 assists. He's one of them. LeBron, Kareem Wilt, Mailman Garnett, Oscar Durant, Pierce sneaking in under the just over the thresholds, John Havlicek and Russell Westbrook. He is for his career 50% overall, 39% on threes, 88% on free throws. Like almost a 50, 40, 90 career. And I just, all I remember, I don't want to do the whole Durant thing now because God knows there's a lot to revisit about the navigation of his career, how he gets no credit for the warriors titles and all of that. I just remember when the warriors won in 2022, being on NBA today and because this is what you do on TV, Curry vs Durant legacy thing was being debated and in the heat of that title and how good it felt for Curry, everyone on the panel was like, oh, it's no brainer. Steph Curry, he's going to get the Finals MVP finally. He's a four time champion, he revolutionized the sport. And I just remember sort of gently being like, are we sure? Like I don't really care because they're both amazing and I hate putting these guys up against each other. 32,000 points coming up on that. He's going to pass Michael Jordan. Just pause for a second. Michael Jordan, 50, 40, 90, more first team all NBAs than Curry. More all star appearances. Curry, again, I don't care really. I'm just saying. And defensively he's always been very good. Seven feet tall, the ultimate, he can be the first option, but you can also pair him with any superstar of any ilk that exists anywhere and he will amplify their game instead of taking away from it. Mvp. Only once, but mvp. Two time Finals mvp. I'm not going to sit here and say I've done like my top 20 NBA players of all time, but I know for sure there are guys that when I do it properly, I will have higher than consensus. Tim Duncan is one of them. I think Kevin Durant's going to be another one. I think he's going to be historically underrated because of the bad taste his departure from Oklahoma City and more, more apt his arrival in Golden State left in people's mouths. But I'm watching him past Dirk creep up on Michael and I'm just like, can we just pause for a second and look at this guy's career? Because it's absolutely insane and I feel like he's going to be remembered as the 18th best player or 14th best player. And I'm like, I think he's probably a little better than that.
- [52:29]
C
It's really funny how you use the word underrated. I mean, in my notes preparing for this, I wrote Durant is having an underrated season. And I feel like he is just at least for me, a lot of the attention and focus goes towards what I said earlier about how his minutes and his shots and his touches and his on ball percentage and his true usage and all that sort of stuff is basically where it's been since he left the Golden State Warriors. But like the shooting splits are like staggering. Like just such consistency throughout compared to basically any season of his career almost in terms of efficiency, he's still like the best mid range shooter in the league. I, you know, crapped on their crunch time offense earlier because they're giving the ball to Kevin Durant and running actions and it's like, well, if I was a coach of the Houston Rockets, that's probably also what I would do because it's Kevin Durant and he's incredible and he makes, he amplifies everyone else around him with his gravity and his shooting and his decision making. So yeah, it's, he's, he's still like he's an underrated player and he's an all time great and he's 37 or whatever he is and the fact that he's still doing this is borderline unprecedented. Like besides LeBron James, I don't, I can't recall anyone doing what he's doing at the level he's doing it every single night. So shout out to Kevin Durant, like.
- [53:56]
A
You put him, you stack him up head to head with Larry Bird and I think 8 out of 10 people. I guess Larry Bird's better. And like, look, I grew up with Larry Bird, not with him in French Lake, Indiana. I grew up watching Larry Bird. I know that he's won more championships and more MVPs and all that. I'm just saying, stack their resumes side by side and tell me Larry Bird is, like, definitively had a better career than Kevin Durant. I'm not sure that you. I just. I want to do a study anyway. Yeah, he's a walking. You know, Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time. We all know that, because the volume of threes that he shoots and the percentage that he hits is just completely unprecedented. Greatest shooter of all time. Open closed. There's no argument Kevin Durant is closer to being in that conversation. We don't think of him that way because he's a scorer, not a shooter. He's both. Like, I think Dirk would come up in that conversation before Kevin Durant. Other guys like that. He's like, 50, 40. Steve Nash would come up in that conversation. I think before Durant. 50, 40, 90 is like the. The holy trinity of numbers for shooters. If you can hit that once in your career, one season, you're a historically great shooter. He's, like, lived in 50, 40, 90 for 20 freaking years in the NBA. Okay, real quick, before you go, I said let's do a quick scan of 6 Man of the Year. We're not going to have time to do in detail 6 Man of the Year. Just give me your pick. Who's your midseason 6 Man of the Year?
- [55:24]
C
Isaiah Stewart.
- [55:26]
A
Oh, my God. He's on my list, but my God, Michael Pina. 10 points, 5 rebounds. No one can make a basket at the rim. He shoots twos and threes pretty well. He can play with Durin, which is big for their depth. I like the choice. It's a bold choice. You want defense, why not have a defensive player win? Exactly.
- [55:45]
C
I've always wanted a defender to win this award. And when Taj Gibson lost it to Jamal Crawford, who I also love in 2014, it hurt me a little bit. And I thought that Alex Caruso, I predicted him to win it last year. Look, the Detroit Pistons are the best team in the Eastern Conference. Isaiah Stewart. We were talking about Stephen Adams before. I think that Isaiah Stewart also personifies so much of Detroit's style of play. The grit, the toughness, the like, don't come in the paint or you will get knocked on your ass mentality that they have. And yeah, opponents are shooting 43% at the basket when he's nearby to contest. Like that's absolutely just an insane number that leads the NBA. And yeah, he's like, I don't really care. Like the 10 points are gravy to me. The fact that he's shooting more threes that make him allows him to play with Duran helps for sure. But it's just all the defense and all like the intangible stuff that he does to make the Detroit Pistons. The Detroit Pistons.
- [56:46]
A
He's on my short list. I don't, I think if, if I had to pick right now, I might pick Jaime Hawkins Jr. But Keldon Johnson's got an argument. Naz Reed, as always, has an argument. I don't want to go too deep into like the Deuce McBride pool of candidates. I'll tell you who's coming is Grayson Allen. If he come, if this bench thing is permanent for him and he becomes eligible, he's coming. And I'll tell you, I owe to Sumnu totally under the radar season. Although all the smart teams are trying to get him from the Bulls. And the last thing I'll say is I don't go through every candidate. AJ Mitchell's got a chance to be six man of the year and most improved player in the same season, which I'm not sure if that's ever happened before. But I'll have to do a deep dive on this another day cause we got Baxter Holmes coming in to talk about Lakers. Lakers. Michael Pina. Thank you sir. Ringer.com what do we got this week? You had your awards ballot this week, your mid season awards, right?
- [57:46]
C
Yeah, a little fun column. Little superlatives and little mid season awards. And then tomorrow I have a little trade deadline primer popping up on the site. Should be fun.
- [57:55]
A
Look for that. Michael Pina, you're the man. Thank you sir.
- [57:58]
C
Thank you Zach.
- [58:00]
A
The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel's putting you in control right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your play it safe, go for it. Feeling bold, that's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control no matter how you play. FanDuel's giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game this NBA season. Head to fanduel.comlow my last name L O W E that's fanduel.comlow to make your pick, get in the game and play it your way. 21 over in President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming opt in required rewards are not withdrawable. Restrictions apply, including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com Gambling Problem Club 1-800- Gambler or visit RG Help this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at ServiceNow.com.com I couldn't let today pass without bringing on my old friend and colleague from espn, Baxter Holmes. Baxter, what's up, my friend?
- [59:20]
D
Good to be with you again, Zach. How are you?
- [59:22]
A
It's been a while. It's been a while. I'm good. You dropped a story yesterday. The headline. I'll just read the headline. She fired everyone inside the Buss family's $10 billion sale of the Lakers and it is very inside about how Jeannie Buss and three of her siblings came to the decision to sell a controlling stake in the Lakers. They still retained 17% of the Lakers, which has allowed Jeannie to stay on as a governor to Mark Walter and Guggenheim and his group for a valuation of $10 billion over the objections of the two youngest Buss siblings, Jesse and Joey Buss, who had aspirations one day of basically running the Lakers and are basketball people to the bone. There's a lot of details in the story, a lot of Bus family infighting. And I think some relationships are fractured to the point of no return among the six Bus siblings. The six, I guess, mostly known Bus siblings, yeah, and Jesse and Joey are undeniably crushed that they're out of the Lakers family and the manner in which they were sort of felt that the rug was pulled out from under them. All of that is interesting and incestuous and dramatic and all of that. I want to ask you just a very 10,000ft question. If I'm a Lakers fan looking forward to looking for like this. This is like a very important document about how this happened. Like I want to know how this happened, why this happened. These characters have been a part of my life going forward. What should I take from your story?
- [61:08]
D
Oh boy, that's a good question. I think some of the things that you've mentioned, infighting and the palace intrigue has been a defining feature of the, of the Lakers really for some decades, but certainly in the post Jerry Buss era since he passed in 2013. And the Lakers have been known as a family run organization, so on and so forth. I've certainly had some people say to me, well, with the sale there were, there is going to be a transition and the Lakers are going to be brought up to speed in the modern era. And some of the family drama, these and these issues are going to be a thing of the past. And whatever the Lakers look like in the future, you know, this is certainly a team that's considered the crown jewel of the NBA and has all these advantages and a massive, massive audience and all these things. Once it's brought up to the modern era, speed under Mark Walter, these things are just going to be a feature of the past and they'll be kind of gone forever. So I've definitely had some people say that to me that that's what this will look like moving forward. But I do think it's important to kind of document how we got to this point. That's what I tried to set out to do in the story for sure.
- [62:20]
A
And I think you actually nailed what my answer to that question was going to be, which is, look, you can't look at the Buss family stewardish stewardship of the Lakers and say it's been anything but wildly successful now, less so since the death of Dr. Buss, but still in that era, they won a championship, they got LeBron, they got Luka. Did they do anything to get those players or did they fall into their lap? You know, that's not, I think it's more the latter than the former. But they are the Lakers. But it's undeniable that everything you describe in your story is basically family dysfunction, which is not a good thing to have around a team of this magnitude. And I do think I took away from it as a neutral reader reinforcing all the stuff I've heard about from the 29 other teams being like, watch out when the Lakers go from being the mom and pop shop of the NBA to a Dodgers style superpower where all of this stuff isn't in and isn't infecting the environment of the team. That was like above and beyond all the drama and all the infighting and Jeanie Buss releasing a statement in the wake of the story, which we will talk about. That was my big takeaway is like, man, this was. I Knew it was messy because I know a lot of the main characters in the story. It was so messy. And now it's. It's kind of. I mean, Genie Bus is still the governor, but it's not going to be like that anymore.
- [63:50]
D
Yeah, I mean, look into the point you just made. I've certainly had teams around the league say that to me for years. Like, you know, and the Lakers have so many advantages, things like that. But some of the. The infighting and the dysfunction, you know, they kind of get in their own way, so to speak. And they're, you know, as you mentioned, once they. They. In this new era, like, who knows where they could go, but. But look out, so to speak. Obviously, a lot of people look at the Dodgers and baseball and the NBA are very different, especially in terms of the salary cap. It's. Yeah, look, there's a lot of takeaways that I had, but there's one thing that I wanted to mention, and it really kind of stayed with me. It's a long story, but it was about how before Jerry Buss died in 2013, he mentioned to. And Johnny Buss told me this, that he was concerned about infighting amongst his siblings being an issue after he died. And so he got everybody together and said, should we just sell now and get it over with? And they agreed not to. But his fears ultimately proved correct. Like there were various chapters of this moving forward, certainly behind. Behind some of it publicly, some of it privately. But, you know, when the ink was dry that that's. Some of those feelings still exist. And it was a defining feature. I think that kind of the legacy of the Buss family will be about, in part about how this team was run.
- [65:15]
A
You know, there's a lot in here. And they needed a majority of the six siblings to vote yes on the sale. And you have Janie Buss, who's rarely spoken on the record in the story on the record, you have Johnny Buss on the record as how and why they decided to sell the team and take the windfall now versus other options that were presented. And I don't want to go through all the nitty gritty in your story. One of the things that you unearthed, and I had heard about this, but I never really chased it and I never got the numbers, certainly like you did, was the bonuses that were paid out to, among others, Kurt and Linda Rambis and I think Tim Harris. And correct me if I'm wrong on Tim Harris, but I think he's on the list. Maybe not total 114 million to sort of the inner circle of Genie Bus. I think Genie would say, well, that's not unusual in, in sales of this nature to have these sort of bonus payouts that take various forms. And that's true in a lot of cases. I think other siblings would say, wait a second, that's a lot of money. And Janie Buses in the story, and I think this is very important on the record is basically saying we didn't know about these. And I asked when I found out about them and no one has given me an answer. No one would tell me how much. No one would tell me why. Any time you do a story of this magnitude, there are certain things are going to be cherry picked. Is like these are sort of the headline grabbing claims. This was a headline grabbing claim. So what should people, what was your reaction to it? What have you heard from maybe the Genie side through back channeling about, you know, why these bonuses exist? How much of a, how much of a sort of flashpoint for Jesse, Joey, Janie, others were these payouts? Or is it just a detail that is inevitably going to get a ton of attention? But maybe wasn't that significant? Because my impression when I first heard about them was like this was. This was not well received by a lot of people around the team.
- [67:21]
D
Yeah, well, first of all, I should say that the Lakers declined comment and multiple interview requests for Genie Buss and a host of others, including some of the people mentioned who I was told receives the payments. You mentioned when I first heard about it and certainly when I was talking to Janie and to Johnny Bus about it, the underlying theme kind of leading into that was that there were, they believe and said that. It seemed to be that there were private discussions or even negotiations that happened between Jeanie Buss and Mark Walter. And there were questions that some siblings had, I'm told, about whether a sibling could have private negotiations about a sale of the team and then present that as an offer. And these, this, the Mark Walters offer was presented as an offer. But certainly when some of these details came out and people understood that, you know, as I reported that like a Linda Ramba stood to make 24 million or Kurt Ramba stood to make 8 million, those numbers, I'm told, are a nod to Kobe Bryant's jersey numbers that, well, wait a minute, why are these people getting paid out? They're people that are close to you. Why are they these figures? You know, it served. It started to in some ways seem that this was not an offer and more of a negotiation. And there were questions of, well, does this violate the trust? Potentially? Are there. You know, was this done behind closed doors and you're trying to present it as an offer? And so there were a lot more questions about that. And I'm told that Joey and Jesse considered for a time whether to take legal action to have a judge potentially suss out, you know, what's in the trust. Was this done above board, so on and so forth. They didn't do that. Ultimately, as you mentioned, a majority of the Buss family agreed to sell the team. They. And it was a unanimous vote, ultimately. And that's it. I think also it's probably daunting in some ways to go against Mark Walter in a long legal battle. And. But at the end of the day, you know, the votes were the votes, and I'm told that Joey and Jesse understood that. But there's still some of those questions remaining, certainly about the payments. And I heard from others close to the team who those figures stuck out to them. I'll put it that way.
- [69:47]
A
Yeah. Honestly, like, we can go relitigate the sale. Why then, why now was the Celtics selling at a $6 billion valuation? How much did that spur it? And on and on. My general takeaway was like, this is all really sad. Like, this is just all. To see a family just broken apart like this and siblings at each other's throats and siblings orchestrating potentially the firing of other siblings and the two youngest ones who thought that the Lakers were going to be their life forever getting boxed out of it. It's just. It's just like it made the whole thing just made me sad, honestly. I think the sadness has been. I think people look at these people. Well, they're all billionaire millionaires. Billionaires. Like, their problems aren't real problems. And I get that, but family is family, man.
- [70:30]
B
That's.
- [70:30]
A
There's some stuff in there. It's like, that stuff is sad.
- [70:34]
D
So that was a defining piece of feedback that I got from people around the team, close to, you know, who work there. Things like that. Like this is just really sad.
- [70:47]
A
Even for the. Even for the winners. It's sad, like, no one. No one wins when you just lose your family like this.
- [70:53]
D
Totally. And. And, you know, obviously people on the outside would say, like, well, they're all rich in the end, but it's like, rich, but it is a fractured family. Some of these things are really hard to kind of process. You know, the idea of, you know, you mentioned Joey and Jesse wanting to carry on their father's legacy and. And lead the Lakers into the future, which was something that a number of people had told me, including people who were with Jerry Buss in the final days of his life, that he had articulated. And it's all over. And I don't. I mean, look, I'm not in the position financially to that any of them are, so I can't speak to it. But I. The. The sadness was definitely something that a lot of people from all walks and around the league said to me was, like, just a takeaway of how this whole thing ended.
- [71:46]
A
I just think it's one of those things. Like, they've often been compared to the Roy family in succession and all of this, but it is one of those things where when they all zoom out of this in 20 years, they're going to be like, man, how did it. How did it get like that? Like, how did this happen to us?
- [72:03]
D
I want to share something that Johnny, but this is kind of from the cutting room floor. So Johnny Buss had said to me. He said, like, being a part of the Lakers ownership was a roller coaster of ups and downs. And, you know, he mentioned that at times when the family could get together, they could be laughing and it could be jovial. You know, it had nothing to do with the Lakers, but when they would talk about the Lakers at times, and this is principally of, you know, for obviously a long time amongst the four older siblings, he said. But then when the conversation between the Lakers was like, all right, who had what role? Why did dad pick this person over this person or over me? How are they faring? Why did I not get this opportunity? Like, he said the Lakers were the tension point in the family. And he said during those downs of the roller coaster, sometimes, like, another sibling might come to me and say, should we just get out? Like, this is miserable. Why don't we just sell and we can all, like, walk away from the team, you know, he told me. And then he said, and then the roller coaster would be up again and things would be good. And like, oh, this is great, he said. But it was always like these extreme highs and lows. And he told me that he started to think, even back in the 90s, like, you know, it would be just great if we could all get away from this thing. It was. I mean, the way he described it was almost. I know this will sound whatever, but it was like a toxic asset that was really driving the family apart and against each other. And that, you know, people had told me for a time that for a long time that Jerry Buss was like the glue Trying to hold this family together, trying to hold his siblings together or his children together, and amongst so much fighting and division and jealousy and whatnot. You know, the Hulu series that Jeanne and Linda Ramba's co executive produce, really gets into a lot of the specific details in all these chapters throughout the years. And, you know, Johnny, when he said, look, with all the money that everybody got, you'd think that we could be happy, we can come together and we could celebrate, but obviously that's not going to happen, you know, and there's so much bitterness and it's hurtful, but it's the end of an era and he wanted to be hopeful and say that, you know, maybe at some point down the road they could all be as one. I don't know. I'm not optimistic that that happens, especially given the way things, you know, went down when. When Janie Buss was telling me about how, you know, being fired and pleading to resign instead and not being given that option and feeling like a crumpled up piece of paper and then, you know, thrown in the trash, there's a lot of bitterness there, and I don't know that any dollar amount is going to make it go away.
- [74:29]
A
LeBron comes into the story, and you had to know as the author that anything LeBron related is going to be pulled out and examined almost separately from anything else because he's such a lightning rod. And you talk about it in the context of sort of rivalries and fissures developing within the organization, and you posit that one of those was between maybe Jeannie and her inner circle and LeBron and his inner circle, that there was resentment over the amount of power that Klutch was trying to seize and all of this, and that there was even an openness at some point to trading LeBron. And you mentioned the Clippers as a team. That's been floated. So I read that, and I remembered flashing back to All Star 2022 in Cleveland when LeBron, in an interview with Jason Lloyd, sort of opens the door to I'm not. It sort of says, I'm not closing the door on coming back to Cleveland at some point in my career. And that ignited a firestorm of speculation inside the league. And I remember talking to people at Clutch at the time being like, look, I know he loves Los Angeles. If this Lakers thing ever runs its course, like, there's another team in Los Angeles. And they immediately shot that down. To me, it's like, he's never going to go to the Clippers. That's not going to Happen he wants to stay with the Lakers. Then I flash forward to 2024 trade deadline. Woj and Ramona report that there is some back chilling between the warriors and the Lakers about The Lakers trading LeBron to Golden State for whatever package. And in the story it's reported that basically Jeannie Buss told the warriors the Lakers had no desire to trade James, but that he would need to seek the answer on James state of mind from his agent, clutch CEO Rich Paul. And so basically like the Lakers, like, well, we don't want to trade him, but check with his agent. I always read that and other people around the league read that as like, well, if Rich Paul says, yeah, like we're not like, then we, then we guess, I guess we got to have a meeting like. And then Jeannie pushed back at you and the story and says, I, I don't understand why LeBron is being dragged into a bus family drama story. And so I would just put it to you. Why is LeBron in the story? Like what, what, what connection is the. That Fisher opening up have to the broader story in your mind?
- [76:57]
D
Yeah, so I want to say it was around like 2024. Well, really, I mean, in some years after the championship in 2020, but. And even after the Western Conference finals in 2023, people in the organization described, you know, seeing Jeannie sort of change and becoming more consumed with criticism of her or the organization taking things personally and so on. And what those people said was we had, you know, Jeannie had been known for in the past turning against people who had been important to the Lakers, important to her, whether it was Jerry west in the past, whether it was firing her own brother, Jim Buss in 2017. So they had noticed a pattern and they had. They had seen also that pattern emerge more and more, especially by that time with LeBron James. You know, you outlined some of the things I get into it more in depth in the story. But the framing of the tension with LeBron was more about Jeannie and a time period of seeing her, as people told me, change. And so that was under the, that was the framework that we felt it was important to include.
- [78:15]
A
Well, I, I also read it as sort of contributing to the idea that like, if I'm staring at a payout of X amount, is all this public scrutiny and stress across all fronts sort of worth it for me to continue doing. And LeBron a potential PR battle with the fans are about LeBron. What was part of that? And by the way, like this story comes out, but it's kind of just assumed around the league that LeBron's not gonna be on the Lakers next year by sort of mutual choice, I guess. I don't know how true that is. No one knows what LeBron is going to do. It'll be interesting in the wake of this to see how the Lakers sort of handle the future of LeBron. But I read it as sort of part of the. I can, I can excise all of this or I mean, she's still the governor of the team, but you know what I mean? Like, I can, I'm not, I may not be the hammer anymore for all of this, this public scrutiny.
- [79:12]
D
Yeah. You know, look, people in the, indeed organization describe like seeing Jeannie kind of change and also wondering if she had reached a tipping point and that all of this, some of the things that you had just mentioned, you know, which she does, she just want to sell and get away from this. And ultimately that's what happened. And I've had people ask me like, you know, how does this impact LeBron? Do you see him on the Lakers move forward? I mean, look, his contract is up after this season. He's 41. I think his, his health is going to be a huge factor with, with everything, especially someone is his age and the amount of miles on his body. He's obviously played, I mean, without precedent for anybody his age. Like, he's playing at an incredible level. So I don't know where it kind of holds. But certainly as I learned more through my reporting, these things have been going on for a while.
- [80:06]
A
I've, I've ranked in terms of the three outcomes for LeBron, 20, 26, 27. I've ranked back with the Lakers as third behind in some oscillating order, retirement or retirement tour, potentially with Cleveland. But even like I've had people remind me like, you know, let's say Cleveland gets to the conference finals or whatever and they have a young nucleus and maybe they trade one, they do something. It's like, it's a lot, it's a lot to just plop onto a team like that because even if he signs for the minimum or the mid level exception, it's still LeBron. And all that comes the attention, the scrutiny, the fact that he's going to have a large role in your offense. Like, it's, it's not, it's not just fun and games and just ceremonial kind of stuff. And the last thing I will say, like, you got me yesterday going back through all the Lakers drama because you go through when the genie sort of firing Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak and then Jim Buss filing litigation, I think, to try to try to reinstate himself, and then a board of directors thing. And, like, it just got me thinking. There's just been so much stuff. Like, I like, your brain just forgets. Remember when Magic Johnson just quit during a press conference, like, out of nowhere? And Magic Johnson went on, was it Kimmel or Fallon, where he's winking about Paul George and gets fined? Like, there's just been so much, much stuff. It's like, my God, it's.
- [81:30]
D
It's been a lot. You know, I was standing probably five feet away from Magic Johnson when he suddenly resigned from the Lakers. And that remains one of the most, you know, unbelievable is a word that gets thrown around a lot. But that remains one of the most unbelievable, like, moments of my reporting career. But, yes, everything from, you know, some of the things you mentioned to, certainly to now, and some of the things I've learned about, and very little of them have anything to do with basketball or with. With, like, winning on the court. It's been all these other things. It's been a lot. It's been a lot.
- [82:08]
A
Well, Baxter Holmes, I don't want to get too much into it because people need to read the story on ESPN.com I think it's no. No subscription required. I can't remember if it's. It's in plus or not. It's fantastic. And, like, this is. The Buss family is a giant in sports and entertainment circles, and this is sort of the coda to it. The reporting is airtight. I mean, even Jeannie, in her statement, didn't dispute any of the reporting. She just said, I wish LeBron's name wasn't in this. Basically, like, we love LeBron, et cetera. It's history and it's a historical document. So congrats on a great story. It's great to see you, and hopefully I'll see you soon in Los Angeles.
- [82:46]
D
It's great to be with you, man. Great to see you. Hope to see you soon. Thanks for having me.
- [82:50]
A
This episode is brought to you. Bye. Ebay on ebay, behind every car and part is a story waiting to be shared. I read about this guy who brought a newly scrapped 2020 Porsche Cayman. He rebuilt the whole thing, all with parts he found on ebay. And now that Cayman is out tearing up the track. From Toyotas to Aston Martins, ebay has thousands of cars and the largest online selection of vehicle parts and accessories. EBay, things people love. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com Matt's Corner okay, so Sean Fenison and I recorded yesterday, Wednesday about Luis Robert Jr. About Bo Bichette, about being optimistic and interested in this new look Mets team. And we talked about how, well, pitching, man, like the starting pitching was kind of a disaster last year. The bullpen's a little bit of a mess. Like, there's gotta be a move coming. And we talked specifically about Freddie Peralta and we talked specifically about Freddie Peralta for Jett Williams and Brandon Sproat. And bam, a few hours later, that exact trade happens. Freddie Peralta, is he an ace? Ace? I don't know. Five and a third innings on average last year. It's not as long as I would like, I guess. No one throws long anymore. Certainly no one on the Mets through long anymore. But he has been an all star. He's consistent. Era, whip, all the fancy stuff. ERA plus, all really good. God knows the Mets needed an A, so. And I remember, I remember vividly the day the Mets traded for Mike Piazza. Walking around my college campus. It was beautiful. It was May, sun was out, birds were singing. And I was walking around almost just like looking for other Mets fans to celebrate with. And I didn't even care who they traded, like Preston Wilson, Ed Yarnell, whatever. Like, I don't care if these guys become amazing 10 years down the line. We got Mike Piazza, we got a masher, we got an actual dude. And this trade, now I'm whatever that was, what, 1998. So it's a million years later now I'm a adult person. I cover a professional sport and analyze trades for a living and the valuation of draft picks. This one's kind of baptism by fire for me because the Mets just gave up two of their top five or six young players. I mean, Sproat is 25 years old. Jett Williams, his positional future with the Mets is unclear. He's five, seven, whatever. But they're like two of the top. They're real guys for a pitcher on an expiring contract. Now they can resign him and probably will, I would imagine, given the price they paid. And they certainly need a pitcher. They got a reliever, this guy, Tobias Myers, who's apparently pretty good, and they need good relievers. So that's not just a throw in, but it's a high price, man. And it's funny. Baseball's so different from the NBA. And the NBA draft picks, before they're made are just these beautiful mysteries. They could be anything. They can go into the lottery and move up, they could move down. They could be any player. And then you pick a player and they become a human being. And you drive the car off the lot, and then you see that human being play in the NBA, in baseball. Look, I'm not sitting here like I'm a Mets fan, but I've never seen Jet Williams play. I've seen Sproat pitch, however many games he pitched for the Mets. They sort of hover in this. Draft picks become people, but there's still mysteries. I certainly don't know how to project any of these guys going forward. That's. That's David Stern's job. And he's concluded that Peralta is worth this. And so I'm not as pie in the sky about it as I was when they got Piazza, and I just didn't give a fuck about what price they paid. But, boy, I'm excited. This is exciting times. The Mets have had. Are on a hot streak. Sean and I talk about it, and we end by saying, you know, all I want is like. Like, Steve Gelbs, who's their unbelievable dugout reporter, I guess you call it, for Snyder. He's fantastic. He had an Instagram thing last night where he's like, now they're a World Series contender. I mean, maybe. I don't know. Like, they still, like, the rotation is still most of what it was last year that failed, and the bullpen is still a little bit of a question mark. The Dodgers exist. Are they a World Series? Maybe. I don't know. But I said at the. At the end of Mets Corner, which I think you'll enjoy with Sean, that all I want is just let me get to September and the games matter. Just. Can we just, like, I'll take 85 wins, 88 wins, transitional year. Just keep, like, let us be in contention for a wild card. Let the games matter. Well, now my expectations are higher than that. I'm happy. And we get into it all on Mets Corner with Sean that we recorded yesterday. We get into Bichette and Robert Jr. And everything.
- [87:39]
B
Wow.
- [87:40]
A
Let's go Mets, baby. Hope you enjoy. It's time that's right. Baseball season, pitchers and catchers is coming up. The Mets, we got a remade roster. Sean Fennesee. The angst of Pete Alonso. We miss you gone. Edwin Diaz. That's the one. Actually I'm most heartbreaking, heartbroken about Nimmo. All that we don't quite have a set in stone pitching staff yet, which seems like a problem in baseball. Pitching is important. But last night you texted me, you broke the news to me. Luis Robert Jr. After many rumors, is now a Met and presumably the center fielder. And I'm just going to say I think I manifested Boba Shet because I was in Manhattan. I had a few meetings on Friday and I've been saying to myself my daughter's birthday is coming up and I need a Mets hat. So these two things in my head is like as I'm walking through midtown, if I see a place that sells Mets related paraphernalia, I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna spend some money. And I passed by a lids knowing that this is not gonna be cheap. And I bought two Mets hats and I bought my daughter a birthday present that she'll be remain nameless. And as soon as I walked out of the store, the Mets signed Boba Shet. And so here we are. How are you feeling about this? At the very least I have a lot of questions about the pitching and I think we all do. There feels like another move to come with some of the decent young hitters who have questionable places now in the lineup. At the very least I am curious about how this may be deeper but less powerful like lineup might be. Like I'm curious, how are you feeling?
- [89:21]
B
I'm feeling pretty positive, I have to be honest with you. And I'm so glad that we did not do this at any other time up until this moment because as recently as seven days ago, I was legitimately concerned and depressed about the direction that they were taking. And we did talk about this when Alonso and Diaz left about like kind of what was the Sterns plan? Was it let's just have kids play and turn over this core roster? Which he essentially fully did. He. He traded away the entire core with the exception of Francisco Lindor and Nimmo McNeil and letting Alonso walk in free agency and Diaz as well. But what I speculated could be possible, which was that he really wanted the kids to develop and that that's where the team was going, wasn't really true. He did what he should be doing as the general manager of a team with an incredibly wealthy Owner, which is being incredibly opportunistic. The Boba Shet signing after not getting Kyle Tucker, trading for Luis Robert Jr. For not very much in Luis Angelicuna, a player that I like, but who is a utility infielder and rebuilding the roster, strengthening their defense up the middle. I mean Marcus Simeon, Francisco Lindor, Luis Robert Jr. And Francisco Alvarez is as good an up the middle defense as there is in baseball right now. And their, their lineup is really interesting because if they get a couple of bounce backs from some key candidates and they get basically average production from the rest of the lineup, they're going to be tough. They have hitters who hit with runners in scoring position. They have guys who see a lot of pitches. They're going to be annoying to pitch to. And on top of that, it gives you a little bit of breathing room for Carson Benj to develop now. You don't feel like he has to be good. And if he's your left fielder of the future, all of a sudden, I don't know. The Stearns masterclass phrase is back on my mind after feeling as low as I have about him since he came here.
- [91:19]
A
Well, and also they've done the thing where opportunistic but also short term. Right. Like Bichette could be a one year deal. It's got options on it. Luis Roberts Jr. I guess has one year left and then a team option where we can buy him out for $2 million. Which $2 million to us, you and I, Sean, fans, who cares? Like it's not to a Giant. Zach, buy him out and, and move on. Yeah, you look at this team and it's it. Also, all of this is again a reminder of how little I know about any of this and how fun it is to be an ignoramus. So like I'm learning things like, or I'm asking things like, huh, Venice Whale in Winter League baseball, Does this matter that Acuna is hitting like, like Pete Alonso in the Venezuela Winter League? Or is he still. Cause I watched him play and it was like, is he just ray or Dona's 2.0 but fast? Can he not hit at all? I don't know the answer to this.
- [92:13]
B
I read a stat that 24 of his 41 hits in major League Baseball last year were infield hits. That's the kind of player he is.
- [92:21]
A
But you look at this like, I'm just going to go around the infield diamond now. Alvarez and Torrens at catcher, love it. I'm excited about Alvarez. If he could just keep his hands and Thumbs and wrists out of harm's way. That dude can hit Polanco at first base. We'll see. I don't know, right.
- [92:38]
B
He's going to hit, but we'll see about the defense. We don't know.
- [92:40]
A
He's had some strong, some good hitting years. Defense will see Simeon, I mean, happy for a change of pace. Lindor is Lindor Bichette at third. I guess we'll see about that. He's apparently a horrible defensive shortstop, but maybe at third he'll be better. I will, I will say the more I learned about him, my. I learned about him in the playoffs, obviously. I watched game seven of the World Series where he had a home run on, you know, one leg or whatever his injury was. The more I learned about him. I have always in my, in my peak baseball fandom, I always valued walk and I always loved hitters who saw a lot of pitches, who were annoying as shit, who would foul off seven pitches. It's what always made me so both so hate and so admire the peak Yankees teams because they just collected guys who would get your starting pitcher out of the game in six innings by being fucking annoying. And Bichette, I guess, does this. He just fouls off tons of pitches. He puts the ball in play and especially in the fast in the pitch clock era. And I can't step out of the batter's box and adjust every one of my appendages after every pitch. I love a guy who sees a lot of pitches. I'm going to like this guy. Outfield, we've got Soto, obviously, and Rob. Tell me about Luis Robert because obviously injuries have been a huge thing with him. He's had very few, like full seasons, offense way up and down. Defensively, he's supposed to be unbelievable. He steals a lot of bases. This seems like a bet on a bounce back. Healthy like, like, could he be as good as Nimmo offensively almost, if all things hit. But I'm excited to watch some good fielders make some good plays, I'll tell you that much.
- [94:23]
B
You know, one, he's been playing in kind of the wasteland of the Chicago White Sox for the last few years. And so because of that, he has not been as visible a figure in 2023. He was straight up one of the best players in baseball. He had 38 home runs, gold Glove defense, he was, he looked like a, like a building block, not just for the White Sox, but for baseball. And he's had a lot of injuries and had a dramatic reduction in his offensive production. Still a really, really good defensive player. He's only 28 years old.
- [94:51]
A
I like that.
- [94:52]
B
I like that.
- [94:52]
A
And Boba Shett's, like, around that age, too, right?
- [94:54]
B
He's 27. Yes. Which is something I wanted to point out to you, which is like, we've gotten a lot younger, which is exciting for a team that has been one of the oldest teams in baseball for the last seven years. But, you know, Robert was just not a very good offensive player last year at all. He. He had an 84 OPS plus. That's. That's not good. That is Tyrone Taylor level offensive production. The thing is, his bat speed is still among the best in the league. He's still one of the fastest players in the league. He had a.290 OPS or on base percentage last year and still stole 30 bases. Like, he is an elite speedster who plays good defense. He's automatically an upgrade over whatever they were running out there last year. Last year, the offensive production that they got out of center field was by far the worst in the league. I think they got six home runs total from the players in the position.
- [95:40]
A
I can tell you a very proud parenting moment for me this morning. My daughter gets out of bed. I've been up working for a bit, reading about this and other things, I say, and we're getting ready for school. I said, oh, Ma, I forgot to tell you. While you were asleep, the Mets made a trade. Well, would they trade? You know, she's over the concern that it's going to be Lindor. She doesn't ask me anymore. She assumes Lindor is going to be around. She said, who'd they trade? Well, I said, remember Acuna? And she said, oh, but he was so fast. Like, he would always get. He would always run. And I'm like, yeah, but that's, like, all he did. He would put the big stupid oven mitt on and get and run. And she was like, well, what did we get? And I said, well, we got this guy, Luis Robert Jr. Who plays center field, and they've been looking at him for a long time. And she goes, daddy, center field. Isn't that why we got Strikeout King last year to play center field? Strikeout King, as you might recall, is her nickname for Cedric Mullins, who she hates with every fiber of her body. So my little daughter, who just didn't even know what a triple was six months ago, is now putting things together, like, oh, we tried to fill that position with this guy who ended up sucking, and I hate him. Maybe this new guy will Be interesting. That was a fun moment for me.
- [96:49]
B
Well, first of all, she's becoming a great fan because nicknames like Strikeout King, that's really what being a Mets fan is made of. I do think that there's something cool going on with Bichette and Robert too, which is they seem to have identified players who have dramatically reduced their strikeout rate. This is also true for Polanco over the course of a number of years because they were a very strikeout heavy team. And now to your point about the guys who see pitches, I mean, nobody sees more pitches than Juan Soto. He's got the strongest eye in the sport. And it's going to be really hard, I think, because of the havoc they're going to wreak on the base paths and the number of pitches that they're going to force pitchers into. And that is where a lot of their success in 2024 and 2022 came from too, is being guys who really worked counts well. So that's exciting. The thing with Robert and the thing with Bichette, though, they're injury prone. It's entirely possible that both of these moves blow up in their face. They're only one year commitment, so it's not that big of a deal. And this is exactly what Steve Cohen should be doing in the run up to what is likely going to be a new CBA that changes the dynamics of baseball. But if they hit the upside with both guys, they're going to be good, man. They're going to be a really good lineup.
- [97:59]
A
I'm glad you mentioned the CBA stuff because obviously there was a lot of ire and remains a lot of ire that the Dodgers of all teams signed Kyle Tucker after stealing Edwin Diaz from us. And I get it, like, everyone's like, oh, we gotta stop baseball. Baseball's broken. We need a lockout, we need a cap, we need all these things. Curse the Dodgers. They're stealing all the good players. Look, I don't know much about baseball, Sean, but it's, it's a, it's a lot less predictable than basketball, for instance, and I'm just telling you this right now, when they don't win the World Series next year, I don't care who beats them because the odds are against the Dodgers winning the World Series. I don't, I mean, maybe they're not, maybe Dodgers over field is like a real thing. That is, they're that good. But people get injured. Baseball's weird. They almost lost last year. Now they got better, but they almost lost. I'M just saying, like, if and when they lose, I will take great pleasure. I never thought in my life. I always kind of liked the Dodgers. I think their hat's cool, their uniform's cool. Chavez Ravine is cool. Piazza started with them. I now hate the Dodgers. It happened fast for me.
- [99:02]
B
I think the Kyle Tucker move pushed people over the edge. And I think that there's a lot of. Been a lot of reporting by the national media in the last week or so since the Tucker signing that. But it's now clear that something is going to change when the negotiation happens. Who knows if there's going to be a lockout. It would be terrible for baseball if there was a lockout because the sport has a tremendous amount of momentum. Guys like you are coming back to the sport because the speed of play, the rule changes. There's a wave of exciting players that are at the center of the sport now. They've just, they've improved the product a lot. A lot of big market teams are very competitive. That always helps, frankly. Dynasties help. You know, this covering the NBA like it's a. It's powerful for a sport to have not just a villain, but a team full of very recognizable faces. The Dodgers right now are plus 220 to win the World Series, according to FanDuel. That's not minus. That's still plus 220. The Yankees are pretty far behind at plus 950. The Mets are plus 1600. The Mets, if they trade for Freddie Peralta or someone like that, that number's going to shoot up.
- [100:02]
A
Yeah. Let's go.
- [100:04]
B
So do you think that's going to happen? Do you think we're going to get a real, real ace type pitcher in the next two weeks?
- [100:08]
A
All right, so here, here, here's. Here's. I just named eight position players. Left field was the only position that is. I just have question mark. Maybe it's Benj. Maybe it's a platoon. We didn't name Vientos, who had a monster last 60 games after a weirdly bad first. A hundred games after a monster postseason the year before. Beatty, who I like. Mauricio, who is tantalizing Canadian. Those people play left field. If not, are they. There's obviously a DH spot. We, you know, rotate guys through that. Give, give Bichette some dhrev. Whatever it takes to just mix it. Everybody. It does feel like. It does feel like a trade is possible. And this is like the, like the starting rotation right now is I guess McClain, Peterson Mania, whatever is left of Senga. If there's anything left. And then like Holmes was pretty good last year. Spro Tong, like those are seven guys I just named. It was this. It's the same rotation plus a full season of McLean.
- [101:14]
B
I guess I wouldn't just made Christian Scott as well. Who's coming off of Tommy John?
- [101:19]
A
I was going to ask you about him. Tommy John. Does everyone get Tommy John? McGill is out for the season. Garrett's out for the season. Minter's coming back at some point this year. Who's this other person? Who's Christian Scott?
- [101:30]
B
Christian Scott was a hotly tabbed pitching prospect about three years ago for the team. He came up and made some six or seven starts and showed promise. He struggled a little bit, but he has good stuff and good command and he got injured and I wouldn't say it was a good thing that he got injured but they now I think they really want to get a look at him on a major league level because if he is able to pitch and you know, it almost seems certain that McLean's going to make the rotation, it gives you just more flexibility. We might be looking at the final year of David Peterson right now.
- [102:01]
A
I like that you're going to have.
- [102:02]
B
Two more years of Senga and Manaya.
- [102:04]
A
Peterson slumped, as you know, in the last third of the season, but I give him a lot of credit for being kind of an ironman. The ground ball turned against him. Right. Like every time I would watch him be like, man, this guy induces a lot of double plays. That's great. And then my smart sports fan brain would be like, like those hard hit grounders that are going right to Lyndor are probably going to go like up the middle pretty soon. And I feel that's basically what happened.
- [102:26]
B
Yeah, I think part of it too is just that the workload really caught up to him and he was the only consistently healthy pitcher besides Clay Holmes in that rotation all season. And he's the kind of guy who I think he could have used a kind of like quiet three week phantom Il stint in August to be ready for the playoffs and he didn't get it and he ran out of gas. So. So look, the eight guys that we've just named for the rotation. Nolan McLean has potential ace stuff, but he's still a rookie. Everybody else has flashed and at times has seemed elite. David Peterson's a former All Star. Sean Minayo was essential in 2024. Kodai Senga in the first half of this season was among the best pitchers in the sport. But they don't have that consistency. They don't have a guy who throws 180 innings with 220 strikeouts every year with a five year track record. That's really what they've been looking for. It's why they signed Justin Verlander. It's why they signed Max Scherzer. Ever since Jacob deGrom left, they've been looking for Jacob deGrom. Just before we started recording, there was a report that Jonah Tong's name came up in talks with the brewers about Freddie Peralta. The Mets said no. The brewers have since reportedly submitted an offer. Brandon Sproat and Jett Williams for Peralta. Peralta is not Max Freed. You know, he's not Tark Skubal, but he's really in that next layer down. He's on a one year deal with the brewers for $8 million and then he's a free agent. Obviously David Stearns knows a little bit about Freddie Peralta because he was there when they developed him as a pitcher for Milwaukee. If you put Freddie Peralta in this rotation and you trade Brandon Sproat and you trade Jet Williams. Jet Williams, who's a top 50 prospect in baseball.
- [104:02]
A
I was going to say that's a name I've heard almost as much. I heard Benj. You know, they were like having this minor league who's the future center fielder for the Mets? Battle and Tong looks or Sprout Spro looks solid. You looked a little bit more like workman like than your typical like high level prospect Freddie Pearl. I'm just looking. I mean he had a great year last year. Five straight years sub four ERA, 170 plus innings. I mean this is what we're talking about is, is like, like this infield, this revamped infield and Robert Jr. In center field. It's cool. It's probably a deeper lineup than the Mets had last year. I am going to miss the presence of like a second absolute masher behind Soto. It always when you have a guy who with one swing can change a whole game, it, it's like a little security blanket. And Lindor is very good. He's not quite a masher in the sense that Alonzo was a masher. But this is a deep, fun lineup. This is like, that's cool and it'll help. And you could win 82 games with that lineup and like blah pitching if you're going to be a serious team. This is the same rotation again, plus McClain. That was like oh, another four and two thirds out of a Med Starter. And it's not like the bullpen is some like proven murderers row of arms. It's remade with Weaver and Airbender and all that.
- [105:17]
B
But it's.
- [105:18]
D
Who know.
- [105:18]
A
I don't know what to make of it.
- [105:20]
B
Yeah, even Peralta is not like a. A length guy. You know, he very rarely pitched more than six innings per start. You can go back and look at his games per. I don't think he ever pitched seven innings in a single game last season, but he had a great season. So the sport is changing in that way. Specifically, McLean looks like the kind of guy who's going to be able to give you eight innings in the start, which is really exciting. But those are fewer and far between. There might also be another guy who's out there who we don't know. I don't think Tark Skubel's happening. It still kills me that they didn't trade for Garrett Crochet last year. That was the move and they held on to a bunch of guys who, some of whom may pan out, some of whom may not. But that was really the pitcher who made the most sense for this team over time. And I'm going to regret that forever. They would have been in the playoffs if they had Gary Crochet last year. They would have been an incredible position long term if they had locked him down. They don't have that. They got to find that guy. Maybe McClain and somebody else become that guy. The other thing too is like their pitching lab is still really good and they're still able to develop. If you look at the way that a lot of the arms that are in the system have developed, they're kind of exceeding their expectations coming out of the draft. There's a whole other class of guys, you know, Jonathan Santucci, Jack Weninger, like we're not talking about those guys yet. But this season, watch them in AA and AAA start to emerge. They have a lot of pitching depth over time. It's just that we are really over familiar with this really mediocre MLB staff and it does feel like they need to change it up if they want to compete this year. I feel better about this year. I feel more invested in the team now than I did two months ago. You know, I'm sad about Pete, but I never thought Pete was coming back. I just didn't think that that made sense. It was very clear that that wasn't what Stearns wanted. So once we get over that stuff and we start seeing Boba Shet, who's going to hit 50 doubles at Citi Field. I mean, if he's healthy, he's going to hit 50 doubles. That's not 40 home run power from Pete Alonso, but it's essentially as effective. It's going to be fun to watch that.
- [107:09]
A
I think they're going to be fun to watch for sure. And I'm excited to learn all these new players and have better defense and not be frustrated by the sort of omission of good defensive plays and also the commission of bad defensive plays. I saw. I was at the Knicks Mavericks disaster for the Knicks the other night. Your Knicks. I'm sorry, thanks for bringing that up.
- [107:27]
B
Yeah.
- [107:28]
A
But Jay Triano is an assistant coach for, for the Mavs. And, and he's Canadian and from the Toronto area. Huge Blue Jays fan. And I was gonna. And I was saying, like, are you upset Bichette left? Like, what should I expect? And he was like, you guys are gonna absolutely love this dude. Like, total gamer, just great guy. Like, I'm not even mad he left. I love that he was so excited. And you mentioned health. As someone who comes from the NBA where there is load management and just constant injury issues, I did not. Even in my rookie year coming back into baseball, I did not take it for granted for one second that Alonzo, Soto and Lindor were in the lineup more or less every game. And in Alonzo's case, literally every game. Like, I understand that that's a. That kind of dependability is like, all right, there's a 1 in 4 chance this guy's going to hit a home run today. Like, every single game that they play is. Is a, is a huge deal.
- [108:25]
B
The same was true of Brandon Nimmo, who in the first half of his career was often injured and he worked really hard to play all the time. So we were really familiar with seeing this. The same team out there every single day. McNeil played every single day. This is more of a gamble. This is clearly more of a gamble with this, with this roster. Marcus Simeon's 37 years old. Like, this isn't. This is. There is a lot of risk in this construction.
- [108:49]
A
It's also clear. I mean, we've sort of tiptoed around a little bit, but it's also just crystal clear that no matter what's said and unsaid, and we talked about the fake raccoon fight that they made up, clearly there was something borderline toxic fume hanging over this clubhouse last year that they've just decided by hooker, by crook, we just got to bring in a bunch of New dudes and just change, change the mood, change the vibes that I did. Like maybe some of it really was politics that's come out a little bit in the last few weeks with Lindor's wife. But, like something was. Something was just wrong with the team and had run its course. And that happens in sports. Like some days. Just like it's time to just change some stuff.
- [109:27]
B
I'm still a little bit iffy on the Simeon for Nimmo deal, but the thing that you heard immediately about Marcus Semien was basically hardest working guy in the sport. Like, nobody puts in more hours trying to excel at the game than he does. And you more or less have heard the same thing. Last night there were all these reports about how Luis Robert has spent the entire off season working out at the Boris facility because he also was a very hardworking guy. And Boba Shet, as you told in that anecdote about Jaytriano, like, like kind of universally beloved in Toronto, son of a former ballplayer, insane work ethic, loves the game. Kind of everything you want from a young infielder who has pop. So I like the personality construction that they've put together of like hardworking guys, very few of whom are A plus stars. But all of them have contributed to winning ball clubs over the last few years. You know, Marcus Semian is a player who's played in the World Series. Boba Shet's played in the World Series. Jorge Polanco was just in the ALCs. ALCs. Like, they have been in big spots. The thing that the Mets have not done well during that previous core was they got tight in big spots. They did not hit in the clutch. They were terrible with runners in scoring position. For seven years, the Mets have been really bad, or at least I have felt like really a bad situational hitting team. I'll look forward to watching a more professional team in that specific respect. But we need an arm still, man. And maybe another arm in the bullpen, too. I was looking at the bullpen this morning and it's like, okay, so let me just tell you who I think is definitely in there. Waskar Brazabon, A.J. minter, Brooks Rayleigh, Luke Weaver and Devin Williams. Those five players, I think have a spot. There's two other spots that are open right now. If you're telling me that it's going to be Dickie Lovelady and Joey Gerber.
- [111:09]
A
Wait, does he go by Dickie or is that just a pejorative that fans use?
- [111:13]
B
No, I mean, I think he's Richard Lovelady. But Dickie has been, has been proffered.
- [111:18]
A
So it's not like Harry Barnes. When Wise wants to make fun of Harrison Bar, it's Harry Barnes, Dickie Lovelady. Now I'm rooting for him. Now I'm. I don't know anything about this guy. Now I'm rooting for Dickie Lovelady to come in there. Here comes Dickie.
- [111:31]
B
He's a journeyman. Unfortunately for us, although we, we might have to get was on a Mets corner. You know, that's, that's the one thing that the three of us share.
- [111:38]
A
Oh yeah, we got, we got to do. Yeah. No, look, if they want to be an actual serious team, the pitching probably isn't good enough, so. Jet Williams, I've heard the name a lot. I mentioned the Venezuelan Winter league joke with Acuna that I. But I don't really. I just don't know the art of projecting prospects. So I look at his minor league stats. I have the, I had them up this morning, I have them up now and I see he's ranked, you know, whatever baseball prospectus, top whatever. He's only, he barely is 22, right. So like he's already very young. He's minor league stats like I'm looking at just last year in Double A and AAA total 34 doubles, 17 homers, 52 RBIs, 828 OPS. Like that's pretty good. I don't know. What do great minor league players do? What is he supposed to be? Is if he were like a 40 home run kind of hitter, would we already be seeing this? What is he supposed to be?
- [112:30]
B
He's never going to be that guy. He's 5 foot 7. He's really undersized. He's small, he's fast, tough, and he gets on base. He had a.390 on base percentage at double A last year. That's the thing that he does, he gets on base.
- [112:45]
A
And you know, I am looking at his on base percentages. Like, I mean again, it's Single A, whatever, but 425, 360, 471, like they're high.
- [112:54]
B
He is a, he's a very similar to all the. Like, look at his strikeout numbers. Like he doesn't really strike out very much relative to what a guy like him would do. He has some pop, but to me he is gosh, I'm trying to think of what's an adequate comp. I mean what they want him to be is Dustin Pedroia, right? Like an undersized Second baseman with some pop who's going to hit between like 50 and 75 extra base hits a season, who's going to play crisp defense, clean up the middle. I think he's probably the heir to the Marcus Simeon job. If he develops this season, he's still got to develop. He, he got really sidetracked because he got really badly injured in 2024 and he didn't really play very many games. And this year or last year, I should say he kind of, he had a positive, mostly positive minor league season, but maybe not as mind blowing as we had hoped. I'm hopeful that this year, through the first 70 games of the minor league season, he looks like a guy who's just destined for the show before the end of this season.
- [113:52]
A
I stupidly didn't even realize that he was also an infielder in addition to being an outfielder. And that makes me like him much, much more. Is he like. When you, when you mention him plus sproat for potentially one year of Peralta that seems. Is that reckless? Would you actually do that?
- [114:08]
B
It's a lot, I think. I think Jet for the last three years has been considered like a prized pony among prospects. And I think he, he feels destined to be a beloved met to me. Like, I've kind of always, since he was drafted, I've thought of him as like, he's just like kind of a get dirty kind of player that you really love rooting for. And I would have a hard time parting with him. But the truth is, is if you want a player like Freddie Peralta, you got to give up to get. You just got to give up to get. And they haven't given up a single elite prospect since they traded Pete Crow Armstrong for Javi Baez and that.
- [114:43]
A
Yeah, well, they're probably scarred by that.
- [114:45]
B
Yeah, that deal fucking sucks, by the way.
- [114:48]
A
You know what?
- [114:48]
B
I've.
- [114:49]
A
Correct me if I'm, if I'm misremembering this, this, but we were talking about the Dodgers and the inevitability of the Dodgers. It wasn't that long ago where they were the regular season juggernaut who lost early in the playoffs every time.
- [115:02]
B
Right.
- [115:03]
A
Except for the COVID year where they won the fake World Series. I'm just gonna. I'm hot take. I'm just calling it a fake World Series. I don't even know anything about it except the dude came out with COVID and got people sick. Maybe potentially in the photograph.
- [115:13]
B
Is that what you say to Laker fans too?
- [115:15]
A
No. The bubble title is real. And I get lambasted for saying that sometimes. Wasn't that, Wasn't that like a 60 game baseball season or something?
- [115:23]
B
Was.
- [115:23]
A
Yeah, but wasn't it? Am I remembering this right? That in the wake of like the third consecutive early Dodgers exit after they win 100 plus games, there was like a wave of writing and podcasting about like, well, is it fair that baseball series are so short that the best regular season team is like so prone to elimination? Should we get the best of five series out? It's not fair. They dominate the whole season and they have the best team and then they lose three games and it's over. Am I misremembering that level of whining? Because I really enjoyed that in my head. I remember being like, these fucking pathetic fans this is. And the fan, these pathetic media cheerleaders who are so heartbroken about the Dodgers. They want to restructure baseball after 100 years. Are they just realizing that baseball series are short and unpredictable now because it happened to their poor little team?
- [116:11]
B
That could have to cop to something. I was one of those fans who was whining. I didn't like it either. I still don't totally.
- [116:17]
A
What do you want? Best of 11. What's going to satisfy you?
- [116:21]
B
I find best of three to be a little bit unfair. Now it makes the playoffs more exciting. A lot of that conversation around the Dodgers and some other teams, but specifically around the Dodgers was oriented around. It was pre Otani, it was pre Ohtani, and then Ohtani signed with the Dodgers. And there is like, like just a very clear wheat and chaff thing going on in the sport.
- [116:42]
A
You know, now everyone's like, can we have best of one for the Dodgers in the playoffs? How about that? Dodgers?
- [116:46]
B
That is true. That is really what we want. I mean, hey, look, give the Blue Jays credit, man. They took him to the brink. They could have won that World Series like this.
- [116:52]
A
This much at home plate. This much, yes.
- [116:55]
B
So with baseball, you never know. Tacking Kyle Tucker onto that lineup hurts a lot. I don't know what to tell you. Like, Kyle Tucker is legitimately one of the 10 best hitters in the sport. He's now a Dodger.
- [117:07]
A
How, how on the Durant, going to the Warriors. I mean, there isn't anything like, because basketball, one guy can make such a difference. But is there any part of Kyle Tucker I don't know. Kyle Tucker could walk down my street right now wearing a Dodgers uniform and I'd be like, oh, I guess one of my neighbors is a Dodgers fan.
- [117:24]
B
That makes it worse. That makes it worse that he's, like, a nano genius. Like, nobody even knows who he is.
- [117:30]
A
So I'm not. I mean this in no judgment at all. I didn't really even care much that Durant went to the Warriors. I didn't make any moral judgment. I thought it was bad for the sport. Should Kyle Tucker be like, should these guys be a little embarrassed and chagrined? Or is like, is. Is that not a thing in baseball? You just take the money and go where you go?
- [117:47]
B
I mean, he and Bo Bashette were just paid absurd amounts of money relative to their success in the sport. You know, when. When. When Ohtani got the deal that he got and then Soto got the deal that he got, you could be like, okay, those are two of the three best players of the last 10 years in baseball. You know, along with Aaron Judge, those are the three best players. Maybe Bryce Harper's in that conversation, couple of other guys, but, all right, Juan Soto was like a generational hitter. Shohei Ohtani is a. We've not seen this in a century of the sport. Kyle Tucker's a good outfielder. He's a very, very good outfielder. Boba Shet is a poor shortstop, but a very, very good hitter. The idea of those guys making anywhere between 45 and 60 million dollars a year, we've just not seen it before. And so getting our heads around it. And you've got to consider also, these are two teams that are in the tax, so they're effectively paying $120 million for Kyle Tucker. That's a lot. It's hard to fathom that. That's the sort of thing that when my dad would grouse about salaries when I was a kid watching baseball, and it would be like, David justice was guaranteed $3 million. Can you effing believe that? This. I was always like, you don't get it, old man. This is great for players. This is great for the sport. We want to. And we live in New York. We want these guys to be paid. We haven't even talked about Carlos Beltran, who once upon a time got a huge deal from the New York Mets and is now going into the hall of Fame, almost certainly with a Mets hat on. But $120 million outlay for Kyle Tucker is breaking my brain. That is actually hard to fathom.
- [119:19]
A
It's interesting. So my dad was completely different. He would.
- [119:22]
B
Would.
- [119:23]
A
He would say, look, when the salaries really started to jump in every sport, he would say, look, it's a lot. But, Zach, who do you Want to get the money? The, the players you like to watch play or like the anonymous billionaire fat cat, you don't even know what he does for a living or how he got his money. And I would be like, well, the players seem like the more fun. Look, here's the bottom line.
- [119:41]
B
Your dad was a wise man.
- [119:42]
A
By the way, I'm excited about this team. I'm excited about the revamp lineup. I'm excited to just watch some new toys play. The pitching needs an upgrade and if they get a little upgraded, pitching can all. Here's all I want out of what seems to be sort of a transitional year for the Mets. Loading up on short term contracts. Just get. I just want a year where I'm invested in every game. I don't want to be. I don't want September to roll around and there are 10 games below.500 and every game is just like, can we just get to the next season if they win 85 games and they're in the running for one of the 17 wild card spots that exist in baseball now.
- [120:18]
B
Cool.
- [120:18]
A
I just like jijit meat and I think this team should be able to be at least that maybe around that. I don't know.
- [120:25]
B
One thing I've really enjoyed and I don't mind tempting their ire is that this has really frustrated the Phillies fans. Stealing Boba Shet from the Phillies has obviously really angered them. They're very quick to point out the irrationality of the deal and then Also Luis Robert Jr. Was a potential target for them as well. And the fact that they had to Pivot to pay 35 year old JT Realmuto a 3 or $45 million.
- [120:50]
A
Yeah, they didn't see. My Phillies fans friends did not seem happy about that.
- [120:53]
B
I mean it's just not a good deal. Like JT Realmutu has been a really good player for a really long time and he seems to be really important to that team. I don't want to denigrate him personally, but that did. I don't. I don't know a single person who thinks that that's a good idea. And they pivoted hard off of it because of the wound of not getting Bichette who they thought they were going to get on a longer term deal. And you know. Well, let's be real, the Phillies have been a much better franchise for the last 10 years. They've had more success. They've been to the World Series, they've been to the playoffs more frequently. They've won 90 plus games more frequently. The Whole thing with Steve Cohen is that we have to find a way to become the best team in the NL east first before becoming the best team in the National League, which is what the Dodgers have set the bar for. These moves, which is just really using financial might while continuing to build the farm and protecting prospects is the way that the Dodgers did it. It's the only way to do it. When you operate from this strength and you're still rebuilding out of a very fallow Will Ponds era, I love it. I'm looking at David Stearns right now who spoke at the Boba Shet press conference. He was interviewed by Steve Gelbs. He said, my preference is to add a starting pitcher. I've been open and honest about that through the entirety of the off season. I can't say with certainty we're going to be able to do that. But we remain engaged on a number of different fronts in that market. We've still got plenty of time to go in the off season. Plenty of time before opening day. We'll see where it heads.
- [122:10]
A
They're going to get somebody. I think so. They're. They're going to get a starter and, you know, and you throw, you throw a decent starter on top of this pitching staff, good lineup and Dickie Lovelady rounding it all out, coming out of the bullpen like, you know, a hundred wins, not out of the question with Allady.
- [122:27]
B
I get that jersey.
- [122:29]
A
I still haven't bought my jersey yet. I still have. I'm still waiting for things to settle down. I'm leaning Lindor Soto's not out of it. The short term con. You said you were so excited you want to get a Bichette jersey. You're going to love him that much. I can't go short term contract guy. So I am still feeling it out that, that the.
- [122:46]
B
As I learned the details of the Bichette contract, I realized it would be a poor decision to buy a Bichette jersey this season because this is a.
- [122:52]
A
Piazza jersey that I'm wearing right now.
- [122:54]
B
Very smart, Very smart. I mean, Boba Shet gets paid $5 million to opt out of his deal at the end of this season. So the idea that he'll be back next year is far from guaranteed.
- [123:02]
A
I gotta learn a lot about baseball, but you're helping me, Sean Fennesy, and you're gonna help me tomorrow. Learn a lot about the Oscar nominations. A big day for you and Amanda on the big picture. I will be listening for your analysis. And as I watch these movies, I like to go back and listen to the archive podcasts. I save them for when I actually watch them, so I'm excited for that, too. Sean Fennesee, you're the man.
- [123:22]
B
Thanks, Zach. You're the man.
- [123:25]
A
All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show this week, barring something crazy in the NBA. Thanks to Michael Pina, thanks to Baxter Holmes, thanks to Sean Fennesee taking a break from Oscar season to talk Mets, Mets, Mets, Mets. Thanks to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. See you next week. Must be 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.