← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
All Tied Up in the NBA Finals: What Happened and What to Watch for in Game 3. Plus, Offseason News, Notes, and Fake Trades With Michael Pina.
01:18:20
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- [00:01]
Michael Pina
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- [00:25]
Zach Lowe
All right, coming up on the Zach Lowe show, live from an undisclosed hotel in Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm here for the finals, baby. It's 1 1. It's exciting. 1 1. Game three is going to be fun. We got Michael Pina from the ringer to come on. He was at the first two games in Oklahoma City. He broke down. What happened? How the Thunder got even in a game that they kind of controlled all the way through and never ceded control of. We're going to dig deep into the X's and O's, the stakes, how Halliburton's got to play better go going forward for Indiana to have a chance and whether this series is going to go back to OKC 2231. What direction would it be? 3 1. Then we're going to talk fake Kevin Durant trades because Kevin Durant's going to get traded and it's fun to talk about fake trades. The latest noise with Giannis the Hawks making some front office moves in the Trae Young situation, which I'm endlessly intrigued by. Much more intrigued than almost anybody in the world. I realize I have a thing for the Hawks. Darius Garland's injury update. We got a lot to talk about and we're going to talk about it on the Zach Lowe show with Michael Pena. Stay tuned. I hope you enjoy it. And listen up. You're listening to the Zach Lowe show, presented by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during the NBA Finals. And with live betting, the tip off is just the beginning. Look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back and enjoy the game as you track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today and make every moment more the ringers committed to responsible gaming. Visit RGB help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 over in President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg d help.com welcome to the Zach Low Show. Live from Indianapolis Indiana, the Zach Low show has joined the NBA Finals party. Michael Pina fromTheRinger.com has been there all along. Fresh from Oklahoma City. How loud was it last night for the thunders rousing Game 2 win? A game that they had control of almost the entire time. Just like they had control of game one almost the entire time. And this time there was no Indiana Magic. There was a lot of Shay Gilchrist Alexander Magic. A masterpiece performance from him. How was the atmosphere? Were the fans nervous? Was it just unbridled enthusiasm? What do we got?
- [02:55]
Michael Pina
Atmosphere was tremendous. This was my first experience in Oklahoma City. Games one and two of this finals and arguably the loudest arenas I've ever been in. Two games, two performances I've ever experienced. It was ear splitting. Shout out to them. Just an insane atmosphere all around.
- [03:18]
Zach Lowe
We are 11 just where you want to be for a neutral fan. Just exactly where you want to be. Oklahoma City is plus 15 for the after a one point loss and a 16 point win. You know the Pacers have to be thrilled to have gotten the split. They're coming home for two. We could be in for a long series. I don't know. I picked Thunder in five before the series. That was pretty close to a consensus pick. I modified the Thunder in 6ish after game one. Nothing in game two really changed my thought process that the Thunder should win this series in certainly less than seven games. But the Pacers, man, you just can't even last night you probably felt it in the building. I just kept waiting. I kept waiting. Get it down to nine, get it down to eight. Something crazy is going to happen. I think these crowds in Indiana are going to be crazy and you know they could easily get one out of two here and it's two two. I would be surprised if it's three one going back to Oklahoma City. Three one in favor of the Pacers. But I don't know what's your gut feel on the series after we've two games where it feels like and this is what's fun about a playoff series, it still feels like there's some mystery to this matchup. You know, obviously in the finals you're facing. You have opponents that have only faced each other twice. In this case, Chet Holmgren missed both of the games. Other guys from the Pacers missed a game here, a game there. So it's really fresh. And game two was different than game one. We saw a little bit of double Big. Some lineup changes, some rotation changes, some scheme changes, but it just still a lot of mystery to it still that that's kind of appealing. Where are you standing so far?
- [04:54]
Michael Pina
I don't know if I necessarily agree 100% with that. I had Thunder in five in this series and that was my prediction. And obviously Game one was one of the wildest basketball games you'll ever see. And not a lot of it made sense after watching it and processing it. And Game two really played out, I think more how I thought this series would go in a lot of ways. And you know, Mark Dagnall kind of summed it up after the game when he was talking about how more comfortable the Oklahoma City Thunder looked on both ends after adapting and adjusting to Indiana's just unnatural playing style, their pace, their ball pressure, their full court tenacity. And I, I honestly felt like, you know, the series obviously isn't over. I don't want to say that you can. It's kind of the same script as Oklahoma City versus Denver, and Denver won Game three after getting blown out in Game two. But I just, I feel like the Thunder looked way more comfortable in Game two and figured some things out. They, as you alluded to and stated, they went back to their double big a little bit. They didn't play A.J. mitchell at the start of the second quarter. They tightened the rotation and I don't know, I just, I just, I think that Oklahoma City should feel pretty good about where they sit right now.
- [06:23]
Zach Lowe
They should. They should. I mean, they, they probably would have liked to have been up 2 0, but even when they were down 1 0, I went on with Bill Wright after the game. I said, it's not like I think Indiana is now going to win the series. I compared it to how I felt after my Miami and Denver were 1 0. I think it was 10 Miami in that series or whatever it was. It was definitely one one after two games. And I was like, not really worried about it. Denver's going to win the series. And Denver ended up winning in five. But, you know, it, it's, it's an interesting matchup. And they did look, even in looking more comfortable last night, they were still a little. They're still going for the knockout blow. Like, like even some of the Aaron Wiggins threes. And we should shout out Aaron Wiggins and Caruso off the bench, joining Shea for two masterpiece games of their own. Some of those shots are like, okay, settle down, Aaron Wiggins, like right off an offensive rebound, you're gonna shoot it again. Okay. Jalen Williams was a little skittish at this. Skittish. A little just like hyperactive, I felt like at the start of the game. But it is 1:1. Thunder should feel good about where they are, I think after dropping game one. Despite dropping game one. And it starts with their defense, the Pacers, 109 points per 100 possessions after two games, not great. Would rank toward the very bottom of the NBA in the regular season. And obviously the spotlight goes to Halliburton. 15 a game so far in the series. Five turnovers in Game 2, which is supposed to be his superpower, is not turning over the button. His whole superpower, the Pacers whole superp. Because we play a style pass, happy motion happy, super fast that is supposed to produce as sort of a downstream effect, a lot of turnovers that we just live with because the risks and the gambles and the movement produce such great shots. But we don't actually turn the ball over. In game two, they did five for Halliburton. How is Oklahoma City defending Halliburton and what can the Pacers do to unlock Kimmel? I mean, a lot of how they're defending him is they're just defending him with awesome players and they have no even below average or even average defensive players for him to really pick at. But is there anything schematically that's interesting to you that they are doing to him?
- [08:31]
Michael Pina
I don't know. I mean, they're. They're up into him, obviously very physical. Lou Dorad, Alex Caruso, Cason Wallace. I. I guess I. Watching that game, I didn't really feel like Halliburton was bad or anything like that. I felt like it was more. The Oklahoma City Thunders defense was just amazing. And you know, obviously they do a tremendous job getting back in transition. And if you're going to, I think, criticize Halliburton a little bit, it would be, you know, they didn't run off makes as well as they normally do. They didn't push. When they did get turnovers, they weren't able to capitalize a little bit. That's not all on Halliburton. But the big thing, I think after the game was just Indiana's inability to touch the paint. And that was a big, I think, issue for them in terms of not being able to kind of play their style and get the type of threes. They took a lot of threes, but a lot of them were not the type of threes that they want. The touch the paint, kick threes, spot ups, you know, Indiana's paint touch on offensive chances in game two was 52%. And for the sake of comparison, during the regular season, the Celtics ranked dead last in the league at 54%. Pacers are usually a little higher than 60% on the percentage of their offensive chances where they touch the paint. And so that's just a big thing. But I don't know necessarily what, like, huge adjustment you can make beyond telling Halliburton to be a little bit more aggressive flying off ball screens. You can play him off ball a little bit more, have him come off wide pin downs, curl into the paint, try to suck the help in. But Oklahoma City's defense is just so boxes and elbows and they're so physical, and it's just, it's a lot. And so I don't, I don't necessarily know what big adjustment they can make beyond be more aggressive. Halliburton. And that's like, really a tough thing to ask when he's. He's making a lot of the right reads. He made a lot of the right reads early in the game. I thought out of pick and roll based on how they were covering him, you know, with the bigs up to touch. But, yeah, I just, I, I don't know that they're so. How Columbus and his defense is one of the best we've ever seen. So I, I don't know. It's just a challenge for him to kind of figure out. And so far he's struggled.
- [11:01]
Zach Lowe
I, I mean, look, this is what we do to the best players. Like, every single game is a referendum on their manhood and their toughness and how bad they want it. And it's like I'm watching the game and I'm like, I'm not really sure what else Tyrese Halliburton is supposed to do. Like, this defense is just that good. That said, you talked to. I've talked to people within the Pacers for weeks now about Halliburton and how he plays. And there's this internal belief in the team that he's one of those rare players whose best scoring games also coincide with his best assist games. Like, there's no push or pull with. If I'm going to score more, that means I'm going to assist less. It's like the more he is aggressive, the more the whole machine works faster and more efficiently. And I think there's probably something to that. But look, all of these teams. First of all, Halliburton's picking, pick and roll usage has been through the roof. The Last two rounds of the playoffs, the finals in the conference finals are like six of his 10 most voluminous pick and roll games of the whole season are in those series. Which means under stress, this is where the Pacers are going. Even when it feels like they're turning the keys over to Andrew Nemhardt, which sometimes they do. It's just a ton of Tyrese Halliburton. And the difference between the Knicks and the Thunder is that there's just less variety that he can go to in the pick and roll. There's no Jalen Brunson that he can run guard, guard, pick and rolls at and figure out sort of how the Knicks are, how the defense is going to handle that, what's going to open. There is no guard. There's no guard, guard. There's no guard, wing. There's not even like a Halliburton Siakam because they're designing the defense to switch that two man game every time. It's just one big lever that they cannot pull in this series. You want to hunt Shay Gilgeous Alexander with Tyrese Elliburn. That's not anything like, that's nothing. Shays fine with that. If you get Shay, if you get Shay on Pascal. One thing I am tired of, it's like five times a game through the first two games. They get that switch with 12, 13, 15 on the shot clock and they do nothing with it. Part of that is Pascal. He goes into the post. They don't get on the ball. He like flows out to the corner. Part of it is just like, can you. Part of it is that it's really scary to throw an entry pass against this team. And we saw Shay steal the ball from him once or twice in game two. Shai is one of the best in the league at what for most players is an over the back, like, foul. Trying to steal and bat away an entry pass. He is awesome at jumping up, reaching over, not touching the body of the guy who's getting the ball and whapping the ball away. But part of it is just like, you got to get Pascal the ball. Pascal's got to demand the ball now and then you hit on their bigs. I thought Holmgren and Hartenstein were awesome in game two. Corralling Halliburton but not blitzing him and then getting back to Miles Turner right in time with Miles Turner's role or pop or whatever and kind of not confusing, but leaving Halliburton without any clear options. I thought they were awesome and just more broadly like Most smart teams that play the Pacers, they're never going to blitz Tyrese Halliburton because they know that's just going to ignite. He's going to make the right read. The passing is going to, is going to. The sequences are going to get triggered. Someone's going to get a corner three. They're trying to make him a dribbler. Go ahead and prod into the lane, take 10 dribbles on this pick and roll. Be Chris Paul, because we know that's not how you want to play. And I think when people say he's got to get more aggressive, and we saw this in his best game against the Knicks, I think it was game four where he had like 30 and 15 or something. And he just took, he, he saw that and he took it. He's like, you want me to take elbow jumpers, I'll take some elbow jumpers. You want me to snake my way into the lane and drive all the way to the rim and take layups, I'll take layups. And I think right off the bat we're going to have to see him do that a little bit more against Oklahoma City's bigs because there's just nowhere else for him, him to pick at. It's just going to have to be a lot of, where's Homegren, Where's Hartenstein? Like, what can I manage with these guys in the two man game.
- [15:00]
Michael Pina
Yeah, there was one play halfway through the second quarter that kind of stands out now that I'm thinking about where I can nitpick Caliburton even though I don't want to. But there was one play where he got Chet on a switch, which is not really how the Oklahoma City Thunder want to defend him. And he just couldn't do anything with Chet. And usually Halliburton is excellent, dancing behind the three point line and getting guys off balance. And he ended up passing to, I believe it was Ben Shepard in the strong side corner and Kenrich Williams ran out there and forced a turnover with his ball pressure. And that was another possession where there was no paint touch for the Indiana Pacers. And so possessions like that, like you just gotta capitalize. The margin for error is maybe not error. The margin for anything is just so slim with the Oklahoma City Thunder. So when you get those, not really a mistake, but when you get those advantages, you just have to take advantage of that. You have to capitalize. And I thought that possessions like that spoke to Halliburton's relative struggles in this game.
- [16:05]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, Chet Was awesome on both ends of the floor. Great chat. Bounce back game. He played more minutes, which was like the easiest possible adjustment to make between games one and two. A couple other things you mentioned. Transition chances for both teams and how kind of limited they seem. The defenses are just unbelievable. I mean, unbelievable. I said before the series, these are the two best defensive transition teams in the league. They have absolutely lived up to it. They are shutting down the best transition offenses in the league, which are also themselves. Neither of these teams can get anything in transition. I mean, not anything. You get a run out now and then, but even those are like super contested at the rim. Guys are just flying back. These teams are fast, they're tenacious, they're well positioned and neither of them can get going in transition. Oklahoma City, I mentioned this after game one. It was their worst offensive performance after steals in the entire season and it was not close. And Obviously they had 9,000 steals in game one and did nothing with it. Game two, fewer steals. Production almost just as bad. Like the live ball. Turnovers are not hurting Indiana so far. And I went into why that was in game one. Number two, you mentioned something really important as an aside, which is get Halliburton going off the ball. Now I'm not saying that you got to, you know, flip your entire offense on its head and like install 25 new plays that get Halliburton doing this and curling around. All of a sudden use JJ Redick, but they have that stuff in their playbook and I just think they're going to have to stretch the playbook to its absolute limits. And it can't just be like out of timeouts, we suddenly run this back screen play that gets a switch and this and that. It's just got to be in the flow of their offense. They have to be more unpredictable. And part of that is using Halliburton in different ways and leveraging the fact that Siakam can handle the ball, including in inverted pick and rolls. That Nemhard can handle the ball some. After that it falls off a little. McConnell's in the game, but or Matheran. Matheran certainly is hungry to handle the ball for better or worse. I thought he played all right yesterday. I think they're just going to have to stretch the playbook to their limit. But to me it all comes back to Halliburton Turner on the pick and roll. If they're going to be able to switch the Siakam two man game, there were little pokes at that Halliburton Turner two man game Where I thought they got good stuff and kind of confused Oklahoma City's defense a little bit. There was one where Turner popped for three and nobody rotated to him. Hartenstein had dropped back to take Halliburton on the drive and kind of expected someone to go out and get Turner. Whether it was the guard switching out or a third guy rotating over, nobody did. And he missed a wide open three. Then there was another one where two people rotated out to Miles Turner and Andrew Nemhardt was just like, hey, no one's guarding me. I'm under the rim. Can someone pass me the ball? And like they're just little. They're going to have to, they're going to have to leverage that two man game for all it's worth. But these are just like, I mean this, this is the only answers that are really available against this team. And I do want to say it's not just in transition. Like, I think Indiana is playing a pretty sound defensive series almost across the board. Like they had some defensive plays last night, chasing around Shea, contesting out the shooters. Like, damn, they really have become, over the course of a season a damn tough and good defensive. Like Halliburton's flying out there contesting threes. Like, I think they're defending pretty well and well enough to make this a series. They've just got to scrounge some points in the half court. And I don't know, I mean, I'm sure Rick is. Rick Carlisle is a genius. He's cooking something up. I don't know what else there is to cook up.
- [19:38]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I think two things I just want to say. One is Oklahoma City had four fast break points in Game 2, which is four. It's like they had four fast break points in Game two. And it's one of those things where if you're Indiana, you're controlling the controllables and you're doing an excellent job. And if you, you know, if you, I mean, if you hit four more threes or something like that. Because as you talked about the. Turner had a few wide open ones off of Oklahoma City mistakes. If he knocks those down, if Obi Toppin hits a couple wide open ones, it's just a more competitive game in the second half because this team, if it's within 12, 13 points, I mean, it's basically tied with five minutes to go. The other thing I just want to say is one of the more interesting rotational moves that Rick Carlisle made in the first half when they couldn't get anything going and they couldn't really penetrate Oklahoma City's defense was he played Obi Toppin at the 5 without Siakam or Bryant.
- [20:41]
Zach Lowe
Not like me. Not me. Not like. Don't like. Would not like to see again.
- [20:47]
Michael Pina
Yeah.
- [20:48]
Zach Lowe
Would not like any of the if we could mothball the Obi toppin Thomas Bryant combo, we could mothball that one. And Oklahoma City very smartly was like, okay, double big now. Double big. Put it out now. Siakam's gone. Turner's gone. Double. I don't want to see it anymore.
- [21:02]
Michael Pina
Yeah. So Toppin playing at the five with four wings slash guards, you know, very short stint. I think they were like minus one in it or something like that. NITH did have a driving layup, layup off a a play where they were able to kind of spread Chad Holgram out a little bit and swing it side to side.
- [21:25]
Zach Lowe
I'm not counting on Aaron D. Smith making that shot again.
- [21:28]
Michael Pina
That's fair.
- [21:29]
Zach Lowe
It was a tough layup.
- [21:30]
Michael Pina
Tough.
- [21:30]
Zach Lowe
Chad was right there. Both hands up. Very tough shot. Fair.
- [21:34]
Michael Pina
Probably not sustainable, but that was just something I was keeping my eye on as someone Rick Carlisle, who is really trying to push buttons here to get more space with this Oklahoma City defense, which is just so amazing. I can cover so much ground.
- [21:49]
Zach Lowe
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- [23:32]
Michael Pina
He was three for eight. He was three for eight.
- [23:35]
Zach Lowe
Okay. One of them was on to my point about stretching the playbook. Staggered screens. And Indiana is genius at this. I believe Oklahoma City had both their big men on the floor and so they called a staggered pick and roll for Halliburton with the two Indiana bigs to involve the two Oklahoma City bigs. And they do this thing where most staggered screens, the guys are pretty close together. Indiana will separate the screeners by like 15ft. And it just makes the defense like, what is this? Like what's happening here? And he, he pulled up for three between the screens because everybody thought he'll just use the second one and we'll switch there a couple of it. And he didn't. And he's just like, oh, no one's on me. I'm going to pull up. And then they got a couple of good threes off. Very smartly leveraging Oklahoma City's tendency to flood the paint against the Thunder by setting little flare screens. Like, for if two guys are on the same side of the floor and they flood the paint, one guy, Miles Turner, is very good at this. Will set a flare screen for the corner shooter. Nemhardt got a three out of that. Do you just got to stretch it to the limit. And it's like, it's hard to play a plus half court possessions over and over again against a defense that's like, if you glance for a nanosecond over to see if the flare screen is happening. We're just going to take the ball like we will take the ball. If the referees are going to let us take the ball, we're going to take the ball over and over again. They're just an awesome defensive team. What did you think of SGA's game? I thought was awesome. That's not a hot take, but how the Pacers are trying to deal with him in the pick and roll, how he is dealing with their defense and like, what room to maneuver is there there.
- [25:17]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I thought he played a much, much, much better game in game two. I thought he was more poised. I thought he was more patient. I thought his decision making out of the pick and roll was masterful. A lot of it was off screens, ball screens that were set at mid court. Isaiah Hartenstein, once he, once he checked into the game, I thought his picks were excellent, which was something that was lacking in game one. To free Shay up, they even set some screens in the backcourt. And yeah, he was fantastic rejecting screens, fantastic splitting screens when they were hunting Halliburton, who was kind of helpless in this matchup. I don't know what the numbers are when he was brought into the action, but they seemed to get pretty good looks almost every single time when Turner was up high. You know, he would be able to split that if you brought Toppin or Siakam or whoever. I thought SGA was just really hard to corral and like, if you are Indiana. I don't know if it's necessarily. You want to make this huge adjustment here and you want to maybe be a little bit more conservative and not go 94ft pressing him or what you want to do, but I just think you need to execute better. I think Aaron Neesmith and Andrew Nemhardt are so good typically at fighting over and ducking under screens. They died on screens in this game. And that's just. You can't do that against SGA and the Oklahoma City Thunder offense. And so I thought, I thought Shea was just, I mean, like 10 out of 10 performance from him. I really loved when he was able to get downhill and like set both feet, play off two feet, survey what's happening, not immediately shoot it, which is what he was doing in game one. And he said after game two, you know, criticizing game one's performance. It was just very sticky was the word he used. And he didn't like how, you know, it sucked that they had that type of performance on such a big stage. But I just thought everyone really adjusted to how to play off of Shay and the pick and roll a little bit better. And he adjusted in just terms of being more patient, looking for shooters, spraying the ball out, trusting his teammates. So it was just a really excellent performance from Shea.
- [27:40]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he was. He just had the whole game on a string. Just, just. I mean, and. And the craft that he's got in tight spaces is ridiculous. Change of pace. I've written before about him that he's one of the only players I can remember where it looks to the naked eye like different parts of his body are moving at different speeds and in different directions at the same time. Somehow, he's just this. He's like an X man. He's just an uncanny player. The Pacers have made it to your point about pressing him, right? And like the bringing the bigs up like Thomas Bryant. God bless you. You got no chance trying to corral this dude 35ft from the rim. You got no chance he's going to get around you, he's going to split you. He's just. You're drawing dead. Miles Turner, pretty good defensive player. He's almost drawing dead. Obi toppin is a traffic cone. Like, these guys cannot get out and press him. And then you start to wonder like, well, could they sit back a little bit? And the Pacers, I think, have smartly decided the one thing we're not going to do is let this dude walk in to 18 foot jump shots. We're just not going to do it. And if it comes at the cost of getting eaten alive 30ft from the rim, if it comes at the cost of us putting two guys on him 30ft from the rim and he burns both of them and gets into the paint with a head of steam, we're going to have to live with that because he's not going to be able to meander and walk and pace his way in to his favorite, favorite shots. He's going to be in a rush where slowing down is going to be difficult, and we are going to meet him with everything we've got in the paint. It we're going to leave almost literally everyone else on the floor open and force him to make snap decisions on the move. And sometimes he's going to hit floaters, sometimes he's going to Euro step for a layup around our help. He got an incredible and one, sometimes he's going to take a shot that maybe is preferable to kicking it out to whoever else is open. And sometimes Caruso or Dort or whoever is going to get a pretty open three, and we're just going to have to do our best to contest it. And I Think maybe they're overdoing that strategy where now the Thunder can see it coming every single time. And by the way, we barely have seen any zone from Indiana. I think they played like three possessions of it. And right away the Thunder hit. Ironically, the Thunder hit them right away with like Rick Carliles of all people's favorite play against his own defense and just bam. Jay Will got a foul out of it. J Dub. Sorry, J Dub. J Will. Respect to J Will. The other J Dub, Not J Will or just Dub. But maybe they're overdoing that pressure strategy. I get why they're doing it. Maybe they have to mix up more looks. But you know, I just like it's. They're playing it pretty well and I just like they're forcing him to make passes and he made more passes in game two. Chat got some threes and by the way, everyone was like raving about the passing. They threw 237 passes in game two. Now that's up from. I think they were like 208 in game one, which was a season long according to tracking data for all games, like ever this season.
- [30:40]
Michael Pina
237.
- [30:41]
Zach Lowe
237 was 90th out of 100 Thunder games so far this season. So it's not like they turned into the 2014 spurs out there. And I thought they got a little stagnant in parts of the third quarter, but they definitely moved the ball better. And part of the passing thing is like the total vaporization, vaporizing of their transition game is probably taking away six bang, bang, bang passing sequences every game that are just not there. But I don't know what it. What, like, I don't know what else they're supposed to do against sga. Maybe, maybe a little more zone, maybe switching up defenses now and then, but he's just gonna. He's just gonna get where he wants to go, man.
- [31:20]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I thought one on one possession, they win zone. And I just thought in my head that it was designed to protect Halliburton. And I think they got a turnover out of it. But yeah, they didn't really run it a ton. And maybe that's something we see more of going forward. You know, I thought that his decision making when he was isolated on the left wing, if they did not send help, he was absolutely cooking Nemhard or Matheran or whoever he was on. And that was ever whoever was on him. And then when they did send help, he got off it, hit cutters. It was like swing, swing, swing. Caruso hit a Corner three. Wiggins hit and above the corner three. And so just like triggering the ball movement with the aggression I thought was really excellent. And then this is kind of an a side note. But I. When we're talking about passing, I thought Hartenstein like, when we're talking about like being more comfortable against Indiana's defense and just kind of how up into you they want to play and everything. Hartenstein hitting Isaiah Joe on a back cut, Hartenstein hitting SGA on a back cut and then SGA kicking out to Caruso for a corner three that he ended up missing but was an okay look. Like that stuff is really, it really stood out to me when I'm talking about like, oh, this team is way more comfortable and kind of understands how to attack, how Indiana wants to defend them.
- [32:50]
Zach Lowe
It's. It's one of the reasons I missed the double big lineup. And look, I called for them to play small more over and over before the series. I thought it was a much better one big series for them than any other prior matchup they had been versus two bigs. I didn't think they would just go full scale, erase the double big lineup like they did in game one. And part of the reason I like that group is because of Hartenstein's passing and particularly the Hartenstein Holmgren two man big to big passing, which got a lob dunk. And it just energizes their entire. You can feel like it's like an electric current pulsing through their offense. Like, okay, now things are moving a little bit. He hit Caruso. There was a sequence where the free agency signings or free agency and trade acquisitions of the summer of 2024 kind of put the game to bed in the third quarter. And it was all Hartenstein and Caruso. Hartenstein hit Caruso in the dunker spot on a pick and roll for a layup. And then Sia and I mentioned this after game one. Siakam has a cross match in a lot of these possessions. If Indiana rushes the floor up because he's guarding Dort and Dort's guarding Halliburton. And in the crisscrossing of Dort trying to find Halliburton, Siakam sometimes has a favorable matchup or no matchup, and they need to get to that. And after that Caruso bucket, they got to it and it was Shea on Siakam at half court. And Hartenstein saw it and sprinted up and poked the ball away from behind, dove on the floor to save it, and it got Caruso a three down the line. It was like these two guys who were just purely additive. They took away nothing from what the Thunder were or represented or nothing from their sort of identity and ethos of how they play and added more stuff and they kind of put the game away. You mentioned Halliburton. Pick and roll defense. Actually think this has been a successful defensive postseason for Halliburton. What do you think? What do. What do you. I mean, I'm not to say he's like now a plus defender or anything, but I think he's fought enough and used his length enough and hedged and gotten out of bad matchups with enough facility that like, it hasn't really damaged their team.
- [35:03]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I thought in the Eastern Conference finals that he was very active when they would hunt him. He forced some turnovers. He was able to hedge and recover quickly without getting, like, putting his team too much in rotation. So I thought that. I thought that overall, you know, that was one thing that I was thinking about, particularly going back to the. The Cav series. I thought that he was going. That was going to be a series where he would be a little bit more exposed on the defensive end. And again, I thought he held up fine. And this is kind of a different animal a little bit. You're going up against the MVP of the league and he was just a little out of sorts. Not only when, you know, whoever was guarding Shea got caught on a screen, but there was one play where. And I think this happened also in Game one a little bit, but he's on Wallace. Wallace goes up to set a screen. And in this situation in Game two, Wallace stopped, like around, I don't know, like about the top of the key maybe. And Halliburton kept going. And SJ saw two on him and he just flipped it to Kayson Wallace. Kayson Wallace took two dribbles, hit a little floater. And like, that's just a play where it just kind of speaks to how vulnerable they are when Halliburton is involved in the play. I thought and okay, you want to get.
- [36:32]
Zach Lowe
You want to get nerdy like this. The Thunders screening in Game two. And usually when you compliment a team screening, it's like they really hit some people. They knock some people over. They said some scalds. They did a little bit of that. Artenstein's very good at that. The variety of their screens and not screens. Like what you're describing is a not screen. Like, Kayson Wallace walked up in the general direction of Shea Gildrich Alexander, as if he was going to set a screen stopped 15ft away from him. As soon as Tyrese Halliburton went to double. It was like a total non screen hit a floater. Al Horford, in his prime used to be one of the best bigs ever to do that. He would set these non screens. Paul Millsap, dude, the Millsap Horford Hawks were amazing at this. And just flipping the angle of the screens at the last minute. Chet is really good now at setting flat screens for Halliburton, which means your butt is facing the baseline directly and you're not screening in either direction. You just leave it. I'm not for Haliburton, for Shea. You just leave it up to Shea to make the read. And Shay just waits for, okay, what's this sucker going to guess? Which way is he going to guess? He's going to reveal himself first and I'm going to go the other way. It was just a really creative offensive game for them. But when they do involve Halliburton, a couple of things. Number one, the little soft switch that he's doing now and then, where he kind of just slides over horizontally, tries to cut off Shay, and ends up kind of switching onto him. You can't do that anymore. You're just. You're dead. He's going to. He's just going to dribble right through you, right around you. You're dead. When he trapped and force Shade to kick the ball to like Lou Dort or whoever. They got some steals out of that. They got some bad threes out of that. Like, trap is better than like soft switch. Number two, when he hedges like that and they hit his guy rolling to the basket. Indiana is doing this thing where Halliburton will peel over to some a shooter somewhere else on the floor and they'll try to rearrange the assignments on the fly. And the Thunder are starting to figure that out and figure out ways to confuse them when they're running around like that. And that Wiggins three you pinpointed one of. What did he have five. What a Wiggins game. One of them was when he was a screener and instead of rolling to the basket, he kind of took two steps to the basket and then Moon walked back out and just stood at the three point arc and nobody ever found him. No one found him again. Halliburton had rotated somewhere else. No one found him. He was just wide open. It's just hard, man. It's hard to defend Shay. It's hard to defend these guys. If I had an answer, I'd work For an NBA team? I don't have an answer. I don't work for any NBA teams. I will say this. Fans who want a long, long series really need to be rooting for Indiana to win game three. Because I think if Oklahoma City wins game three on the road, they're going to start to smell blood in the water. And we could have a 31 series going back to Oklahoma City. And then, you know, we know what's looming after that. If it's 2:1 Indiana, it's just a completely different series. If it's 2:1 Oklahoma City and it's like semi comfortable, they win by eight or nine. I fear for what is coming after that. But it's in Indiana and Indiana's legit. I just think there's, look on paper, scoring margin, all of that. It's a mismatch. I just think we have to tip our cap and say Indiana is just way better than its record and its metrics. There's something happening here that's real.
- [39:44]
Michael Pina
Yeah, it's really not even about Indiana. I have a lot of respect for Indiana. I think they're incredible. I love how they play. They're so fun. They're aesthetically breathtaking. It's more about Oklahoma City and how great that team is and how great that team is has been from wire to wire and they have the league MVP and they can play all these different lineups and they have some of the best. I mean, they have an all defensive team literally on their roster. So it's just. I just like the two series that were really. I was thinking about the most from the past. The two finals from the past were Jordan's first finals against the Lakers. They lose game one, they win the next four games.
- [40:23]
Zach Lowe
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Were you alive for that series? Were you alive for that series?
- [40:28]
Michael Pina
I was, technically, yes, I was alive.
- [40:31]
Zach Lowe
Okay. Because I was in. I was in middle school. I was in middle school and I was cheering for the Lakers because they were underdogs and Magic was at his twilight and Sam Perkins hits the big shot to win game one. And I was imitating the Perkins shot the next day at school. So I just wanted to put for the, for the record, like just. I actually watched the series.
- [40:52]
Michael Pina
Yeah. Shout out to you. I didn't. I was 4 years old, I believe. And then the other one is a series I did watch staying up past my bedtime was the Allen Iverson step over game Tyloo and then win game one. And then they just get smoked the rest of the series. And that's kind of those are the two series I was thinking about when I was thinking about the rest of this, this finals and how I thought it would play out, to be honest. And again, that's like not anything about Indiana. I love Indiana. It's just about okc. They're incredible. I thought that their response was exactly what everyone who watched them all year expected to see, and they delivered. And it's just so hard to make adjustments and execute them against this team.
- [41:40]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know you're totally obsessed? Like I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl. Kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or you getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The Ioniq 9 is Hyundai's first all electric EV with three, count them, three rows. Yep, space in an EV. Finally. And with over 300 miles of range and ultra fast charging capability, you won't only experience more room, but more freedom. I have an ionic myself. Huge win for my family. Super smooth to drive easy and fast to charge home run. Learn more about the Ioniq 9@Hyundai USA.com or call 562-314-4603 for complete details. All right, let's get to some news around the league and we'll go from we'll just go quick about a bunch of things. Number one, the Atlanta Hawks announced a couple front office hirings today. Bryson Graham is coming from New Orleans and Peter Dinwiddie is coming from Philadelphia. They will work under Onci Soleil, who was hired from the Warriors. All of the big names, GMs or agents that were reportedly in contention to go above ONC are obviously out of the mix now. This is his team and also I think Quinn Snyder's team. I think this is a signal that Quinn Snyder is maybe going to be the most important non ownership voice on the team. And look, I have a thing for the Hawks. I just am endlessly intrigued by the Hawks for reasons that no one else understands. I think they're actually in a much stronger position going forward than people might realize. Nuts. I don't think they're like a championship contender or anything like that. I just think the Dejounte Murray Retrade which just completely transformed the Dejounte Murray Retrade, the emergence of Dyson Daniels as like a legit plus starter and Jalen Johnson looking like a future all Star before he got injured. Those three events together, let alone what a congu did in the second half of the season and getting Rhys Sachet and Ricochet looking pretty good. I think they're in a pretty strong position. And I just. I'm just so curious about what any of this means, if anything, for Trae Young, who looms as one of the bigger sort of franchise defining dominoes in the NBA. And not that Trae Young is like even a top 15. I don't know where I would have him. I didn't have him on an all NBA team this year, but he was born borderline. Borderline. He has a $49 million player option for 2627, which effectively makes him an expiring contract once the calendar flips to July 1. It has been fanciful for everyone to suggest, well, they just got to get off. Trae Young can't extend him. It's too much money. He's not good enough. He's held the franchise hostage with his style of play long enough. Get what you can get. I can't believe I'm saying this now. On June 9, 2025, I kind of want the Hawks to keep Trae Young long term. And one of the reasons, I think one of the reasons is I don't think there's a great market for him. So I don't think there's a trade out there that completely just reorients the franchise in a positive way. And so if I'm them, here's what I'm doing. If I'm Quinn Snyder and Quinn Snyder's glasses and onse soleil, I am being like, look, we'll extend you, but it's got to be. It's got to be like one of these. It's flat or it comes down and it's flat. Like, we're not giving you the max. I know you've been the franchise guy. I know we made the conference finals four years ago and kind of a fluky year for the east and have been playing MVPs since then. But if I can extend him at a number that's like their cap sheet is pretty clean. If I can extend him at a decent number, I just kind of like their team. And I do think he changed his style of play a little bit. Just enough to make. Okay, is something happening here? Is something interesting happening here? And then Jalen Johnson got hurt and the whole thing kind of got short circuited a little bit and they went back to their play in Ways I just, I just want to like, I think that. I guess what I'm saying is I think there's hope for like a Trae Young. Mid career. Metamorphosis is too strong of a word. But I could see like in a year, in 10 months, it's like, oh my God, the Hawks are like up to one in the second round and Trey Young is moving off the ball a little bit and blah, blah, blah. Like I could see it, I could see it. And I, that's. I don't. That's what I think that's what I would do because I don't think there's three first round picks and a prospect or anything like that for Trey Young on the market right now.
- [46:28]
Michael Pina
I love this take and this, this opinion and thought process from you. I couldn't agree more, particularly when said the part about him not resigning for the max or getting a max extension. That's pretty critical here. If you're going to.
- [46:44]
Zach Lowe
Well, look, and he's going to be. And, and I can, I can tell you exactly he's switched agents. I think he's at CA now. And I can tell you he's going to walk in there and say. And his agents are going to walk in there and say, what, are you kidding me? This is ice tray. Man size tray. He does this thing. He does this thing. All the kids do this thing when they make baskets. He makes shots from the logo. Like, that's cool. He makes shots from the logo. People like that. People actually come to Hawks games kind of now because of Troy Young. He's a franchise guy. Like, if I were his agent, this is what I would say. He's a franchise guy. You don't treat franchise guy. You treat Rudy Gobert like this. You ask Rudy Gobert to take a discount in his late 20s, early 30s to facilitate.
- [47:27]
Michael Pina
But that's literally the name that I was thinking of when you said, yeah.
- [47:33]
Zach Lowe
That'S what they did with Rudy Gobert. And I can picture Trae Young and his people saying, hey, look, there could be more teams with cap space in 2026. It's a dangerous game you're playing. And there could be more teams with cap space. We also don't know. Any projection of cap space now is only half useful for the summer of 2026, whatever. But they're going to go in there and say, it's a dangerous game, but you're going to piss off your franchise guy. And if they came to me like that, I would say, look, I'm sorry if our 4 year $165 million extension offer pisses off Trae Young. That's the offer. We'd like to have him on our team. If you don't like that offer, then we just table it because we're not rolling over on this.
- [48:17]
Michael Pina
I concur with all of this. I'm a big Trae Young believer. I like his game for the most part. I could do with out a lot of the turnovers, and I think that it's really hard to win in the postseason with his defense. Those are, Those are issues. But I think he's. He's brilliant when he has it going offensively. He's one of the better pick and roll, smarter pick and roll operators in all of basketball. And he's a gamer and to the point of, like, the finances and how that would kind of fit in with regards to, like, who is the franchise player. I, you know, I wrote a profile earlier this season about Jalen Johnson, and I talked to a bunch of people on the Hawks for it, and Onyeka Kongwu straight up said on the record that Jalen Johnson was the best player on the Atlanta Hawks. And that is something that I kind of agreed with before.
- [49:13]
Zach Lowe
And when was the next time Trae Young passed to Onyekong? Was it like two. Two weeks?
- [49:20]
Michael Pina
Yeah, it was a little bit of a cold streak there. Yeah. And so I, I like this because I like the. I like how they've kind of insulated a lot of his weaknesses on paper and in practice too, with Dyson Daniels. And I'm really excited about Risacher's development. I like a Kongwu a lot. Moving him to become the starting center, I thought was a long time coming. And it was good to see him play as well as he did down the stretch of the season. And when Jalen Johnson is healthy, I think I'm not like penciling him in to be an all star next season, but I think if he was healthy last year and never hurt his shoulder, that that would have been a real conversation. He's just, he's. He's so awesome and he compliments Trey on both ends, so. So, yeah, I like this a lot. And you add in the fact that it's the Eastern Conference and like, who knows, the Chicago Bulls could be in the conference finals next year. By the way. We're going. So if you are the Atlanta Hawks, like maintaining your. Your, your talented pieces that make sense together sounds like a pretty good plan, honestly.
- [50:34]
Zach Lowe
My guess is they'll never say this obviously publicly or even privately. My guess is if they could have gotten or get a really great trade return for him, they would have done it or would do it and they can't and they haven't and that's fine. And this is a fine plan B. You mentioned his defense and it called him a gamer. Part of being a gamer is deciding to really buy in on defense when it matters. And buy in can make up for a for a decent enough portion of your limitations defensively. Like he's skinny and he's small and that's just never going to change. But even with Halliburton, who's bigger and taller and a little stronger, buy in has made a huge difference for him, just as it did for Curry early in his career when he immediately was like, I'm going to try. Like you didn't go at me at least, at least I'm going to try and I'm going to get stronger. I'm going to hit the ball away now and then. And if you surround a Trey Young who's at least like bought in with Jalen Johnson, Reese Sachet and Dyson Daniels and a decent defensive center, you can't get a better infrastructure to hide him than something like that. And I will just repeat this stat over and over again because I think it's mind boggling. Trae Young again did not turn into Steph Curry with off ball screens this year, but he set more off ball screens in this one season than he had in every season of his career combined prior to this point. That's something. And it doesn't have to be the end of something. It can be the start of something. Okay, I don't know what happened. When did I become Trae Young fanboy number one? This is a nice look for me. I like it. I'm enjoying this other piece of news. Darius Garland Shams Strana reported today for espn. Toe surgery out for four to five months, including the beginning of next season. I never have much reactions to injuries other than like this sucks. It's great timing. If there's going to be good timing for an injury, this is good timing for a big injury and a surgery of this nature. I hope he gets healthy. He was incredibly snake bitten two years, two seasons ago. Had a great season this season. I wouldn't trade him if I were the Cavs unless I were just bowled over by a crazy offer. I kind of hope the Cavs run it back and see if they can toughen up a little bit and be a little bit more playoff ready than they have been the last couple years But I don't know. Any strong reaction to the Darius Garland news?
- [52:51]
Michael Pina
Yeah, surgeries are a bummer. It would have been cool if he was healthy during this postseason run because I wanted to see, I wanted to see, you know, talking about defense, I just wanted to see him hold up on a, on a long playoff run and, and for that organization to kind of get a little bit more data about themselves. But, you know, really good player coming off a really good season. And I, I'm just being speculative here, but I do wonder if he were healthy and they were to have. Their season were to have ended as it did. Like, what the. How seriously they would consider moving on from him. I think he's really important. I just, I just. Based on just how that team has kind of flamed out of the, of the postseason the past two, three years, I. And him being undersized and Donovan Mitchell also being in the backcourt and etc. Etc. Etc. So I don't know, I just, I think about sometimes where he would fit better around the league. And we, we know the teams that make sense, but he also makes sense in Cleveland for the most part. I mean, they were the number one seed and they were freaking awesome this year, so. So yeah, I hope he gets, he gets healthy and looks. Looks the same as he did last season.
- [54:11]
Zach Lowe
Be interesting to see if the Cavs just sniff around a little bit with Garland and Allen this summer. We know it's not going to be Mitchell or Mobley sniff around now. They're aproned pretty dramatically. They're second aproned right now, even before Jerome or Merrill. So they can't aggregate, they can't take more money back, they can't do all sorts of things. So I tried to conjure up a Garland for Durant fake trade because Garland actually would fit Phoenix's timetable and fit what they would need positionally. And it just like, they can't take bipolar money. They can't aggregate. And then my brain broke and I was like, well, they could do this and that. It doesn't matter. Okay, Speaking of Kevin Durant, look, Kevin Durant's going to get traded. I, like, we all know this is happening. And so I said, you know, what fun. And there's just, there's always just buzz percolating about, oh, this team's in. This team may not be super in. This team's waiting to see what the tea leaves are. This team's waiting to see what happens with Giannis and if they can get in on anything that happens with Giannis is anything happen with you on this. And I just said let's make up our favorite Kevin Durant trades. So Michael P. And I said make up your three favorite Kevin Durant trade. You want to lead off with the fake Kevin Durant trade you like and we can just bounce around the teams because Kevin Durant is getting traded. If Kevin Durant's not traded, it will be one of the most shocking non moves in the recent off season history of the NBA. Let's put it that way.
- [55:34]
Michael Pina
I would love to do Kevin Durant fake trades. And you know, as you were just talking about like the second apron and the restrictions that all the apron business kind of puts on exercises like this, it bummed me out. So if any of mine actually aren't legal, we can just, you know, bleep everything out and start over. But I use the spotrack trade machine for this, so blame them. Slash. Very useful resource. Thank you so much spotrack. So the first fake trade I have is Kevin Durant to the Minnesota Timberwolves. This is my favorite one for Rudy Gobert, Dante DiVincenzo and Rob Dillingham. And that's, that's the whole trade.
- [56:27]
Zach Lowe
Okay, so the Minnesota situation is very complex because there are aprons involved for them too, potentially. They have these three maybe outgoing free agents in Randall and Nas Reed and Nikhil Alexander Walker, the first two of whom have player options that are not like totally out of bounds from amounts they would take if they were attached to extensions, taking them would imperil the apron even further, etc. So the trade you just mentioned of Gobert DiVincenzo, how can I say this is one that is batted around league circles now and then.
- [57:11]
Michael Pina
Wow.
- [57:13]
Zach Lowe
Because I've heard it in the last couple of days. It's just theoretical, just theoretical people. But I just keep hearing Minnesota's name come up vis a vis Durant and the combination of aprons and player options. And does Mike Conley have to get thrown in as a salary filler? You threw in Dillingham. I think they would just be loath to do that. Kind of breaks my brain a little bit. Moving Go Bear is like so am I just going nasrid at the 5 and we're not going to care about defense at all anymore because we have such scoring prowess. Like I don't, you know, is it too much of an upending? Because the more I've heard, I do think there was some actual smoke around Durant and the Wolves at the trade deadline. I don't know how serious it got it was obviously incredibly complicated because of the aprons, but in the summer it's much easier to rope in a third team. And I think a theme that we are going to have in a lot of these Durant trades is Brooklyn, and can Brooklyn be used as a salary dumping ground? What is Brooklyn going to demand in exchange for being used as a salary dumping ground? And are those demands such that it's actually hard to satisfy all parties in this trade? And furthermore than that, are there constructions where Nick Claxton goes to Phoenix because they need a center so badly? If Brooklyn is involved as a third team, Those are all just thoughts. I like it. Give me another one.
- [58:49]
Michael Pina
Okay, my second one is San Antonio gets Kevin Durant, Phoenix gets Keldon Johnson, Harrison, Barnes, Sohan, and the 14th pick in this year's draft.
- [59:06]
Zach Lowe
That's it.
- [59:10]
Michael Pina
That's it. I gotta say, like, when I think about this, it's kind of like you have Kevin Durant, he's an amazing, all time great player. He's also 37 years old and he's going to be very expensive. And so when I'm talking about like, what's going back to Phoenix for it, I just feel like these halls aren't going to be very impressive. And so if that's, if this is light, then I don't, I, like, I don't know what to tell Phoenix, but if I was San Antonio, if it's.
- [59:43]
Zach Lowe
That light, if it's that light, if I'm the Rockets, I'm like, I'm just going to go trade for him then like, if that's all I got to beat, I can beat that. Because you just traded, just for the record, you just traded Kevin Durant to the spurs. And the spurs did not give up the number two pick in the draft, Stefan Castle or Devin Vassell. They kept all of those players and got Kevin Durant. I will say when I do this, I. But the spurs are one of the great mysteries around the league right now. No one is quite sure, like, how aggressive are they going to get for Durant. Even that trade that you just outlined, which was Barnes, Johnson, Sohan, I think as the, as the players going out, like, it's not. You can construct an awesome starting five of Fox, Castle, Vasil, Durant, Wembanyama. That is like, oh, oh boy. Shit. Are they, are they a problem now? Like, that's a real problem. And then the bench behind that is like, uh, oh, like we got to use the mle and we got to actually get somebody good with it. It's not very deep. I don't know how aggressive the spurs are going to be, but if that's the price, then. Look, I agree with you. Phoenix is going to be disappointed here given what they gave up to get Kevin Durant. And I think they're going to have to weigh. They're in such financial jail that they're going to have to weigh talent. It's a sliding scale of like talent and financial relief. You're not going to hit it out of the park with both. And talent can include picks and future assets. Some teams are just going to offer you such dramatic financial relief in some of these deals and a little bit less talent because not only can some of these deals get you under the aprons, they can get you under the tax, which you badly need to get under because your team is not good and is not going to be good next year. Okay, the spurs are on my list. The Wolves are on my list. Give me your third team and then we'll go. Will rapid fire through in other ones? I'm going to guess. No, just Give me your 13. I was going to guess who it is. Just give it to me.
- [61:40]
Michael Pina
Were you going to guess Houston?
- [61:42]
Zach Lowe
I was going to guess Miami or Houston. One of the two.
- [61:46]
Michael Pina
Okay. Those were my four and my five. You asked for three and I did five. Those were four and five. Those are kind of backup plans. My. My Houston Rockets offer is just so disgusting. I just don't even know if it's worth uttering out loud. But my number three team, and this is a semi serious one, I don't know how realistic this would be, but it is Philadelphia and it's Philadelphia. They get kd, they trade. And this is why. I don't know how interested Phoenix would be with this one, to be honest, but they would get Paul George and they would get Phillies first round pick in 2030.
- [62:25]
Zach Lowe
No, thank you. Thank you, Daryl. You can throw your fucking phone out the window with that thing. Goodbye. Don't call. Don't call me again.
- [62:35]
Michael Pina
My logic again. Can I give you my logic a little bit here? The faint logic in this universe where you're not going to trade Devin Booker. Like, what are you. What are we doing? So I understand, like, taking back Paul Georgia's contract is terrible. He's still a good player. I don't know if he's.
- [62:53]
Zach Lowe
Paul George is good. Paul George?
- [62:55]
Michael Pina
Yeah.
- [62:56]
Zach Lowe
Paul George is going to have a good, good year if he stays healthy. If. Obviously it's a big if.
- [63:00]
Michael Pina
Yeah, like his contract stinks, but he's a good player, he could make another all star team. Who knows. But like if I'm Phoenix and I'm operating under delusion and I'm not going to trade Devin Booker, then okay, give me Paul Georgie, let me get a draft pick. Like I feel like that is something that would be appealing to them even though if I were running the Phoenix Suns that would not be appealing to me. So it's just want to get that on the record.
- [63:26]
Zach Lowe
Okay, I'm going to go rapid fire. The more I think about it, the more I kind of want Houston to do it. Kind of depending on what the price is because Van Vliet. This is all contingent on either we opt Van Vliet in or we resign him to a lower number or both. Van Vliet, Durant, Sengun and then surrounded by all the crazy length and defense that they have is a model that makes a ton of sense. KD needs a high volume. Not, not that Fred Van Vliets a high volume point guard, but someone to just do the running of the offense because KD is not going to do that as much anymore. It makes a lot of sense. Something like, like Jalen Green plus some salary filler in Jock Landale and Aaron Holiday plus some draft equity that may or may not include the number 10 pick in this draft and a future Phoenix pick that gets returned to them. That might be too much given what the landscape is going to be. And I don't. I still think there's like, I still don't. I've heard nothing to change my belief that the Rockets front office is just not gung ho about chasing Kevin Durant, about trading a lot of stuff for an older player who doesn't fit their timeline. But if they don't think Jalen Green is going to be a huge part of their future, then that's something that maybe is interesting to me. Miami is going to get involved. I would be shocked given you mentioned how bad the east is going to be and how Miami generally operates. They could talk themselves into not trading Hero but a nucleus of Hero plus BAM plus KD plus whatever decent young players are left over here can get us somewhere. And they have a Wiggins Rogier salary combo plus picks to trade. That sort of satisfies a lot of the key there would be. They're going to have to give up one of Jovic or Hawkes in any kind of trade like that. I just don't see Phoenix doing it without some carrot of like a maybe semi interesting young guy. Khalil Ware is the one that Miami will try like hell to hang on to. And that's where the Claxton can we rope in Brooklyn as a third team kind of comes in instead of giving up, giving up Ware. The Knicks have been mentioned a lot. The Knicks are going through their own turmoil right now. They need to have a head coach and some other things but obviously there's, there are easy, not easy, but there are ways to make that deal. If the Knicks stay under the second apron, I'll tell you a team that I think is going to get involved. I think the Clippers are going to get involved.
- [65:53]
Michael Pina
Oh, that's. I don't know how I like that.
- [65:55]
Zach Lowe
I don't know how heavily they're going to get involved. I have no idea. Kevin Durant's thoughts on playing with James Harden again? Don't know. But I know that the Clippers can trade and I double checked with this today. They're 20, 30 and 32 picks, unprotected, 31 pick swap. They've got Powell's salary, Bogdanovich's salary, Derrick Jones Jr. You'd have to reroute one of those guys probably somewhere else. And those picks given the age of the roster, despite the fact that Ballmer will spend whatever the hell it takes to win in all of this and they have a new arena that everybody loves. Those picks could be valuable trade chips. I can't believe I'm saying this. I think that deal breaks down around of each of Zubots. I think the Suns would want Zubots in that deal and the Clippers would be like no, we're just not. The guy's too good.
- [66:42]
Michael Pina
He's.
- [66:43]
Zach Lowe
He's much younger than Kevin Durant. We would want to pair him with Kevin Durant and then the deal kind of dies unless you can do a Claxton three way kind of thing. But I think the Clippers. I've learned enough with the Clippers and I think the Drew Holiday stuff, which I alluded to a couple weeks ago, got out a little bit. I mentioned a team that had pursued jrue Holiday before may try to get back into it if Boston decides to break up. A lot of stuff that was the Clippers and I think that got out publicly. I just think the Clippers are going to try to do something this summer that catches people off guard. I think they're going to be involved in this. That's all I'm saying. And other than that, I have my fake Sabonis for Durant. Durant gets rerouted somewhere else. Fake trade and I'll Give you my favorite fun destination. Well, maybe the Nuggets should just be mentioned. I don't think they can get it done. How about the Pistons for Tobias Harris, Isaiah Stewart, Jaden Ivy and a future first round pick and just. We just go crazy. And Kevin Durant suddenly plays for the Detroit Pistons with Cade Cunningham and their supporting cast that looked kind of ready to make some noise in the playoffs. That's fun. Sorry, Toby.
- [67:50]
Michael Pina
I love that, you know, I mean, the Detroit Pistons, I mean, what are they thinking after their first round series against the Knicks, which easily could have gone their way. And they, the Knicks obviously go to the conference finals and are what, six wins or whatever from winning the title. I feel like the Pistons, I don't. I would not accelerate things about them necessarily. But that is an interesting trade that I would definitely consider because you are not giving up. You know, Ivy is very. Who knows. But he was not obviously able to contribute to this particular iteration in the playoffs. And just, I just want to go back real quick. Zubots. Absolutely not. He's not getting traded for Kevin Durant. If I were the Clippers, that is an absolute no go for me. He's. He's way too good.
- [68:41]
Zach Lowe
Almost made all NBA and deserve and deservedly so.
- [68:44]
Michael Pina
He's awesome. Yeah.
- [68:50]
Zach Lowe
Those are my Kevin Durant trades. Real quickly on Giannis. Matt Moore, our friend Matt Moore reported today that I think he said teams are under the impression Giannis might be staying. Look, I've certainly had at least one team in the last 24 hours who would like to get in on any Giannis bidding. Tell me. Yeah, we think he might be saying, look, nobody. Let me just be clear. Nobody knows anything right now. I don't even know where Giannis is. I think he might be abroad right now. I don't know what's going to happen. But if people tell you he's staying, they don't know. If people tell you he's leaving, they don't know. I don't think anything's been decided or even close to decided. And, and I'm not sure that this is going to be like an at the draft kind of thing, given if this ever happens. Like, I'm not closing the door on him getting traded and I'm not closing the door on him staying. I don't care that the reports there like, oh, he's saying he might be staying. I'm not convinced of that at all. He's very aware of what the situation with the Bucks is and that he would essentially have to take a gap from Contending at a high level while they somehow rearrange things to contend at a high level when he's 33, 34, 35, whatever it is, which is not an implausible scenario and one we have seen with other stars who stuck with their original teams. I don't know what's going to happen. It just. There was this idea that it'll get done at the draft. It could get done at the draft. Watch the draft and maybe it will. The draft is like not that far away and any Giannis deal is going to be a megalith. It's going to involve like three teams minimum, possibly four, possibly more. Brooklyn's going to be maybe a salary dump team. The Bucks are going to maybe try to get teams that have the Milwaukee picks to get in the deal so they can get picks back. It's not going to be easy and I don't know what's going to happen, except that I would tell people, do not go up and down with the day to day. He's staying, he's out. He's staying, he's out. Because I don't think anybody knows anything yet. I certainly don't and I've tried. That's it. That's all my, all my honest things. Any final thoughts on this or the NBA Finals, which are still going on resume in about 48 hours in Indianapolis?
- [71:13]
Michael Pina
No, I mean, the honest stuff is, I guess, fun to talk about, sort of. I haven't really been thinking about it too deeply with being in Oklahoma City and now Indianapolis. And as you like to say, this is why we do this. And I'm a believer in that as well. And so covering the NBA Finals is like my purpose.
- [71:36]
Zach Lowe
Are you looking forward to the ratings discussion that's going to happen? If the ratings are just okay, too bad for the rest of the series. I can't, I can't wait to dive in. Seriously, can't wait. Honestly, it's one of my favorite things.
- [71:50]
Michael Pina
I'm shocked. That was on top of the outline on today's episode. Frankly, I had a lot of thoughts about the ratings and just how down in the dumps they were. No, like I, you know, this is like a high level.
- [72:04]
Zach Lowe
Does your. Do you have a Nielsen box at your house? Do you still have it on your tv? Do you have a Nielsen box that's wired into it?
- [72:12]
Michael Pina
I don't know.
- [72:17]
Zach Lowe
Right. I have a couple final thoughts. Maybe. Can I give you a couple final thoughts?
- [72:22]
Michael Pina
Shoot.
- [72:23]
Zach Lowe
Very mundane, stupid final thoughts. They're more of along the lines of I forgot to say this during the podcast and I would like to say it number one about Durant. But it is useful to remember as we talk about if this team gets Durant, how deep will they be? How shallow will they be? You don't just have to get Durant, whether it's a player from a third team or like, can I get Royce o' Neal off your hands? Like you can get other pieces in the Durant deal. Number two, I can't believe I forgot to say this during our final segment. Can we just. I'm sorry it's all out of order, but there were two plays in the second quarter that I wanted to zero in on. When I talked about how the Pacers are swarming, swarming SGA in the paint and making him make tough decisions back to back possessions. And I want people to look at. It's fun to look at 2 minutes ish in the second quarter. On one side of the floor, Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren, pick and roll. On the other side, Caruso is setting up for a second pick and roll for Shea. And the reason why that's important and it worked two times in a row. Play number one, Shay got a drive against Siakam for a basket. Play number two, J Dub got a drive against Toppin, I think for a basket. The reason it worked is instead of having people jumbling up the paint, everybody was lifted out because they were setting up for pick and rolls and one other guy was in the corner. And it was much cleaner for Shay in the paint. The swarm factor was not there. So that's one thing I'm going to have my eye on in game three is how Oklahoma City manipulates the spacing a little bit to make the reads even easier. For Shay, it did feel like their problem solving Indiana a little bit as game two went on. And Indiana has one giant problem to solve, which is that the best defense we've seen in maybe since the 2008 Celtics, I don't know. Those are my final concluding thoughts on the finals. Do you have any other concluding thoughts that you want to get to because I just interrupted you.
- [74:11]
Michael Pina
No, I'm good. I think this series is very high level and the. The contrasting styles is very fun to watch and entertaining. And while I am someone who thinks that Oklahoma City is still going to win in five games and I have not abandoned my prediction, I would love for Indiana to split and make this very, very interesting going forward and just kind of held to the wind. That would be great. And I think they're capable of doing it because they've got elite shot makers and their style is so frenetic. And who knows, they're very. There's just chaos. So the Finals are awesome. Don't care about the ratings. And when Giannis gets traded, it'll be cool. But I, you know, it is. It's far away. It feels, it feels far away if it happens.
- [75:08]
Zach Lowe
All right, well, we got a long way to go between now and there, starting with Game three in Indiana. I will see you there. And I guess it's Wednesday, two days from now. Michael Pina at the Ringer. You're recapping a lot of these games for us. You had a great piece today about what happened in Game two. Welcome to Indianapolis. I'll see you soon, my friend. Thanks for popping on.
- [75:25]
Michael Pina
Thank you, Zach.
- [75:28]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show today from Indianapolis. I think we're going to go out and have dinner, explore the local restaurant scene. Who knows who I run into here in Indianapolis. We got a couple days before Game three of the Finals. Thank you to Jesse, Jonathan and Mike on production. I'll be back later this week. I believe the plan is go live with Bill on the Bill Simmons Podcast. You've probably heard of it after Game three. He will do the same on the Zach Lowe show after Game four on Friday. We might have an interim show if something happens, who knows? But it's Finals week. Always a fun time in the NBA. Thank you for listening to the Zach Lowe show. Must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and President D.C. gambling problem called 1-800- gambler or visit FanDuel.com call 1-887-89-7777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 Sport in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOP E N Y or text Hope NY in New York.