← The Zach Lowe Show
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. It's cold out. Yes, it's very cold. But basketball season is heating up. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you select the right coverage for your home, your car and more. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that fits your life and talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Coming up after this on the Zach Low show. Bobby Marks is here. Our annual trade deadline recap tradition except we're doing it on the Tuesday of trade deadline week because holy crap, so much happened. James Harden is a Cavalier. Darius Garland is a Clipper on the Clippers. Kawhi is an all star. By the way, is Kawhi gonna get traded Next? Jaren Jackson Jr. The Grizzlies tear down a is in progress. The Jazz give up three first round picks and some other stuff to pair Triple J Lowry Market and Walker Kessler. We're going super big. Grizz are going super tear down. Is John next? We have a Celtics deal. Vooch the Chicago Bulls, they bought high and sold low and the Celtics have a center and Freddie Simons is gone. We got a minor Pistons Wolves Bulls deal that may hint at something. Giannis still a buck. Bobby Marks, the king of the cap, the king of the trade machine other than Bill the king of NBA front office Analys from ESPN to help us digest all of it. Woo. What a Tuesday. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is brought to you by State Farm. Life's better when you've got the right help. Think of that perfect pass that sets everything up. Smooth, effortless, just what your team needed. That's the kind of assist State Farm offers whether it's online or in person. State Farm's your teammate when you need help making your next play. State Farm with the assistance coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. Look who it is. My long lost friend Bobby Marks. You know Bobby, James Harden can reunite anybody can do anything around this time of year. How are you my friend?
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B
I feel like it's Simon and Garfunkel, right? Isn't that the. If I'm trying to think of reuniting here, maybe it's a journey and their lost singer that they replaced along the way. It's like coming all back together.
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A
How you doing? Everything good?
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B
I'm living it. Hey, another year, another James Harden trade, right?
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Well, hey, look, man, it's Tuesday. Normally we do this on Thursday. That was our annual tradition. We'd get all done with our stuff on Thursday, hop off tv, hop right onto a podcast recapping the madness, or a lot of the madness hit today. So this is good timing for this. And literally half an hour ago, we're going to start with this. The Cleveland Cavaliers acquired James Harden from the LA Clippers for Darius Garland and a second round pick. So a couple of things to start with. Number one, the jokes went off last night when Shams broke the story that Cleveland, that the Clippers and James Harden were working on a resolution. This is, to me, from what I've heard anyway, this was not the typical, James is angry and unhappy about life and he's going to mope his way out of town and demand a trade. This to me was baked in to the one plus one contract that he signed over the summer with the Clippers. They didn't pay him long term. That sent a clear message like, Hey, 2027, we're turning the page. We're not. We're not paying you long term. In fact, we're going to do this weird partially guaranteed player option thing like mutually assured destruction. And look, I think they just, everyone made a rational decision here that you could play out the year. The team just isn't good enough. And the Clippers have an opportunity to get a young, interesting, younger, interesting guard in Darius Garland and the Cavs get James Harden and we sort of go that way in this, in this trade. I, I mean, I. Did you hear anything that other than this was sort of like. I think both sides understood that this very possible if the team was not going to be a contender after they signed the deal?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think if, if anything, maybe it caught the fans a little bit off guard just because they had been playing well, I think. Were they 174 before the weekend? And then they lose in Phoenix where Harden was a DNP personal, but was also at the Arizona State game, which was, which was something else. And then last night against Philly, I was at the Philadelphia game. Oh, boy. I feel like I was back at the Meadowlands. It was like a lifeless feeling of six Clippers and an arena taken over by 76ers fans. And you just, I mean, you saw in the beginning they jumped out to a 162 lead and it was just like, it was like, you know, so, yeah, I agree with you as far as the contract, it's a unique contract. They call it a mutually player mutual option, which really means is that Harden could opt out of it and become a free agent. And if he opted into it, he's only guaranteed like $13.3 million. There's a July 11 trigger date on it and everything. And so yes, we after, after it came out yesterday and there's DNPS personnel, we all saw the writing on the wall. Cleveland was mentioned. You don't need to have a math major to figure out what makes sense. Right?
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A
Like almost to the dollar.
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B
Yeah, I mean it's, it's to the dollar. And.
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A
You.
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B
So I think the interesting thing. What did James Harden get out of this? What is James Harden getting out of this? Because he had to give up two things here. Zach Lowe, he had to waive his, his one year bird restriction, which is basically a de facto no trade clause that was in the contract because he had a player option. Okay. And he had to basically eliminate most of his $2.3 million trade bonus.
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A
That's right.
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B
He had a trade kicker because Cleveland is a second apron team and Garland is like 39:4 and Harden is like 39:2. And if you add that they are taking back more salary so it's reduced to like $260,000. So what is Harding going to get out of that? And I think that will be, is he going to get his next year guaranteed? Is there a promise that they're going to rip up that second year and do a new deal when we get into the off season? I think that's going to be the thing off the court that we're going to pay attention to.
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A
I just real quick, again on the Clippers, I said a month or two ago, month or so ago, I think they're going to have a realistic view of themselves. Like I don't think they're going to care about the picks or the pick that they're sending the Thunder. I think they understand that there's a sunk cost. And if they conclude their team just isn't good enough and they get a good offer for James Harden or even Kawhi Leonard, I mean that's still, we still got 48 hours left. I think they would do it. Even if it increases the chances that they send Oklahoma City a high pick, that's five, six, seven years ago, they can't be held in prison by that trade. And I think despite the fact that they have been one of the hottest teams in the league, I think they know history Suggests Kawhi could get hurt again. The hole is just too deep. And even the apex version of this team, I don't think he's beating Oklahoma City, Denver, Houston, San Antonio four times in seven games. Just too much has to go right. And here they get. We'll talk about the Darius Garland fit, but to me this is a no brainer deal for the Clippers. It repositions them going into the next era. They've been precious about this cap space in 2027 and beyond. They have almost infinite amounts of it. They can easily take a $40 million salary in Darius Garland and still have enough to throw max money at one or more players. It's like no harm, no foul. We know Darius Garland has been an injury risk. Both his feet have been messed up in the last year. He had a horrible year or two years ago. He had the jaw wired shut and all that. We get it. He's also been an all star. He's a very creative, cagey, fast twitch in tight spaces kind of player. Good passer. Other teams have coveted him over the years. Like the spurs took a hard look at him before the Fox situation kind of materialized for them. I think the Hawks might have taken a look at him in the summer if it had gotten there, but it didn't. And now the Clippers get him on Harden. What is he going to get? It's a very interesting question on a couple of levels. Number one, it's possible that I have Harden Stockholm syndrome, Bobby. But I'm really starting to just enjoy how cold and brazen and mercenary he is. I respect it like it's just money. It's like he's the one player who's like, they treat us like assets. We're just assets to them. Well, look, you didn't pay me long term, I don't think we're really going anywhere. I like playing at home. I like Los Angeles. I wanted to be here, but you ain't paying me and you've signaled you ain't paying me. I'm gonna go somewhere where I might be able to win and they might be able to pay me and I'm prepared to, to do, to break some shit on the way out the door. Now they didn't get to that point because this has been, I think, a pretty copacetic relationship start to finish between Harden and the Clippers. And everybody understood each other from day one and certainly from the day they signed that contract. But I just respect like the mercenary nature of it. He's not trying to hide what this is for him, it's a vehicle to play some hoops, get some money. But from the Cavs perspective, the what is he getting out of it is interesting because to me, this is an astonishing vote of no confidence in Darius Garland, an absolutely astonishing vote of no confidence in either his health, his big game performance, or both, or his fit with Donovan Mitchell, or all three. Because Darius Garland has two years left on his deal after this $42 million next season, which is almost the exact amount of James Harden's player option, and then 44.8 the season after that. If you give James Harden a two year extension as part of this deal, financially, you're not, it's not, you're not going to end up saving a meaningful amount of money unless you take such a crazy discount that I don't see coming. Now, if they just decide, let's opt in for next year, maybe you shave a year off of it, but this isn't, this looks like a salary dump almost of Darius Garland. But if you extend James Harden at the same amount of money, it's not a salary dump. It's just trading up in age 10 years for a different player. And an astonishing vote of no confidence in Darius Garland's ability to win this season for this Cavs team. And maybe that's just about health. Maybe it's like for all his warts in big games and game sevens and whatever James Harden plays and Darius Garland has not played enough in the regular season and in the playoffs for us to have faith in him. But boy, it shows a level of anxiety and urgency and fear about Donovan Mitchell's long term stay ability, whatever that means in Cleveland. That seems almost premature to me. Like how did we get here this soon? This level of urgency that this much is being thrown in the basket of this season. I don't know man. Like I get to. James has had a better season than Garland. It's not close. He'd be an all Star in the East. He's more durable. He plays in the playoffs. He, he, he might shit the bed in the biggest games, but he'll have some good games along the way. It seems like a pretty big risk for the Cavs that I'm surprised that they're this urgent about it. Are you at all, or is this just like we're a better team and that's all that matters? We're a better team this year and that's all that matters?
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B
Well, I mean, listen, at the end of the day, they're going to be judged in April. May, like you Know, I mean it, it goes back to even the move they made over the weekend. The, you know, the Schroeder Ellis Hunter trade, who, you know, they hired acquired Hunter last year and basically J on Tyson has made him somewhat, has made him expendable. I mean that's the reality of it. And then the Schroeder trade, because I thought they needed some insurance because of Garland's injury and then they go out and get hardened and you know, you know, you swap out a 26 year old for a 36 year old. And I, and I do believe, as you mentioned, some of it has to do with health. Right? I mean like that has to, you know, the availability. And that's why like I'm, like I'm, I'm interested how is, you know, we learned this last year with Mark Williams. I'm like the trade ain't done until the trade, you know, until you go through the physicals and stuff like that. As far as, you know, where, where Garland is health wise and everything. Because it's, it's like I, I always equate when you do a physical, it's like you getting your, your, your car inspected, you might have a good mechanic and you and someone else might have a different mechanic as far as what they see under the hood. So we'll see what happens with that there. But.
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Well, and also, and also the deadline's not over until the deadline's over. So the Cavs are not a complete team. They might be and it might. All they might have left is a salary dump of Lonzo or whatever because they have a million guards. But we'll, we'll see. We'll see.
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B
You know, and I think that's, you know, that's kind of the thing. I think the Lonzo thing will be the, the move to, to watch like Zach, when you look at it, you got two guys that rank in the top 20 in usage with Mitchell and Harden now. I mean, I watch him and you watch a lot. Like I love, you know, Donovan Mitchell with the ball is pretty dangerous, right?
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A
I think, I think that's one of many questions to be answered here in Amid, what is a vote of no confidence in Darius Garland? At the very least, his health. This has to be a vote of confidence in James Harden.
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B
Yeah.
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And he certainly, he's having his best season in a long time this year. He looks physically snappier and more explosive in the way that James Harden is explosive than he has in a long time defensively. We know he's not going to do much for you. But they have Evan Mobley and Jared Allen and that should be enough to have a top 10 defense no matter who's on the floor. But there are certain and look, one of the weaknesses of the Cavs is they don't get to the free throw line a lot. James Harden still averaging eight and a half free throw attempts a game like that's, that's a feather in his cap and something to help them. But there are realities that you have to embrace and one of them is, as he so famously put it, he is the system. Yeah, he'll, he'll get off the ball a little bit more when he has a Kawhi or a Donovan Mitchell or whatever with him. But you're going to play hard in ball a lot and maybe they just don't care because Donovan Mitchell could use a little bit of, a little bit of easing of the burden. Jared Allen will and Evan Mobley will feast on lobs from one of the greatest pick and roll or pocket passes, whatever. From one of the greatest pick and roll passers of all time. You stagger minutes as strictly as the Rockets once did with Chris Paul and James Harden and you just make it, you make it work. But there's that reality and there is the reality that the playoff track record is what it is. He's had some huge playoff games. I flashback to that Philly Boston series in 2023. He wins basically two of the games, games one and four on the clutches jump shots and he had 45 points in game one with Embiid out in that series. It may be the greatest performance of his career. And then in game 6 and 7 of that series he completely no showed. Dallas Clippers two seasons ago saves their series with a great game 4. Floater after floater after floater, no shows the next two games without Kawhi Leonard. And then last year Denver no shows game seven. There's been a number of big game whatever craps of the bed. This is just the reality that you're getting into. So it seems exciting now. It's certainly going to be exciting. But they now have finals or bust pressure on them because Darius Garland some injuries have been freakish. I don't know how chronic like turf toe should be. I've never had turf toe. I know it hurts a lot but it feels like something that you should be able to get past at some point. And there's some chance that the Clippers just flipped a 36 year old off a going nowhere decent Western Conference team into a 26 year old borderline All Star with the sort of creativity that I think would draw other players to him.
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B
No, I agree. And I think going back to the Clippers, you know, and I know they had turned a corner, although against a soft, somewhat of a soft schedule. I think the game last week against Denver, when they went out up to Denver and lost there, I think that was a little, hey, this is, we're kind of, there's some separation from where we are and where Denver is right now as far as. And I think that that kind of put this in motion a little bit more here. But no, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a, as you said, it's a win. That team. And after this, they lost Indiana in the second round last year. You know, Kenny Atkins said it, like, hey, man, like, I don't, you know, town, town's there. Like, are we mentally tough? Like we mentally, as a group, we like, are we mentally tough enough and everything? And we're going to find out a lot about this team.
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Better win your series in five games. I can't be that surprised, I guess, because two or three episodes ago, I can't remember exactly what I said, but I said something to the effect of one of these teams that's in an extreme win now mode. I called them the funky teams. There's just something funky where they're in an extreme win now mode. But just something hasn't gone right in the fabric of their team. Something hasn't gone right in their season, something they're just getting in their own way. One of those teams is going to make a surprising trade, even though they are gearing up to try to win everything this season, even though that's disruptive. And I was thinking of Cleveland and Orlando specifically. Now, I did not expect James Harden. And I do think there's just a certain level of risk here in giving up Darius Garland, unless they know so much about his medicals and that it is, in effect, risk free because financially it could end up being a wash, I guess. I guess we'll see. Can we just go over James Harden's career for a second?
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B
Yeah.
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You know, have you seen all this stuff about, well, this is going to be his legacy now. Just asking out, asking out of places. Have you seen this stuff floating around? Like, this is just part of his.
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B
You know, shirts there?
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So Oklahoma City to Houston to Brooklyn to Philly, Part. Yeah, I know. He is really a, he is really a rocket, first and foremost. Oklahoma City, Houston, Brooklyn, Philly, Clippers, Cleveland, leaving chaos in his wake at every stop. And it's been money, happiness, mostly money every single time with some hiccups along the way. Like when you didn't take the big extension in Brooklyn, remember that? And had to sort of recoup it and try to recoup it in Philly. And if. If he's not paid the way he wants to get paid, he's gonna. He's gonna move on. But it has been interesting to just see how many times he's moved. And like the Clippers, correct me if I'm wrong, I think they still owe two things and a swap, right?
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B
28 unprotected to Philly and a 29 swap. I think it's like top two or top three protected. I mean, when you're that kill, those are the killers. When the picks that you owe and that players like Milwaukee owing, you know, whatever for to Portland for Lillard, and the guy's not on your roster anymore, and the picks haven't even come to fruition.
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A
And those are really meaningful things for a team that had dug out of the PG Shea Kawhi mega trade. And it just sort of added more years of purgatory onto this team to go for it with Harden. And it ultimately didn't lead to as far as it needed to for it to be worth it. Philly got out relatively painlessly from the Harden experience in terms of what they gave up and what they got. The Nets, man, oh man, I don't know if you were like, I think you were my guest on the Low Post podcast when I first posited my favorite and one that I invented completely out of whole cloth conspiracy theory of all time that I still like, 5% of me thinks might be true. Do you remember this? Yeah, that Houston and the Sixers. Because remember how tight those organizations are? When Daryl moved from Houston to Philly during this Tillman Darrell feud that was very public, almost too public, one might say that the Rockets, the Sixers and Harden colluded to use the Nets as a patsy, middleman to get Harden from Houston to. To Brooklyn to Philadelphia and save the embarrassment of trading Houston, Philadelphia directly and keeping up the facade. Again, this is my bogus conspiracy theory facade of a feud. And the theory is they all agreed we can get Brooklyn to pay through the nose to the Rockets. James will go to Brooklyn and contribute to the sabotage of the Nets, force his way out and in the process increase the value of the Nets picks that went to Houston. I posited this four years ago. Those picks have turned into Tari Eason And Reed Shepard. And there's a 20, 27 pick swap still to come where the Net where Rockets can swap picks with the Nets next year. It's a, it's a crazy X Files spooky molder conspiracy theory. I actually don't believe that it's true, but it's. It if it is. It would be. It would have been a scheme for the ages.
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B
You know, I was just thinking this when you were saying all that, like the carnage that he's left behind. Because if you go through all the picks like besides Brooklyn still own Houston. A pick swap in 27. The Sixers owing Brooklyn top eight protected first in 28. The picks that the. The Clippers owe Philadelphia in 28 and 20. Like, there's still like four things out there from like three prior trades.
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A
It's. It's just great. And, and to be clear, it's just my pet conspiracy theory. But I have said before, I have put out the call 15, 20 years from now, anybody wants to come clean, I'll write the book. I'll write the book.
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B
Limitations.
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A
Let's talk about what do you think of this from the Clippers perspective?
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B
They're the. As they're the oldest team in the NBA, right. Like, we're not going anywhere here. And if he's healthy, I think it helps them. I think if you're the Thunder this year because you owe. You have that Clipper pick, you're thinking, interesting. That's right, interesting. But as where you see the west right now, what are they? 10th right now? Eclipse in the last plane, I think last playing spot. So they'll. They'll be a. They should.
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A
They are. They're up to ninth.
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B
Yeah, they should be a plan. Can they get into the, I don't know, first round? You got to get through Golden State and Mini or Phoenix or one of those teams. So, yeah, I agree with you. When you started the thing, I don't think the Clippers care what they've given up seven years, six years ago in that Oklahoma City trade. It's just kind of full speed ahead.
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A
Well, if they keep their team intact, they're going to make the play in probably by default because as we're going to discuss, Memphis sure as hell ain't chasing it. The Jazz sure as hell ain't chasing it. Although they made a big trade today and so they should be safe in there, as should Portland. But, you know, stranger things have happened and we'll see if Garland can stay healthy. Have you heard any murmurings of Kawhi potentially Being gettable.
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B
I haven't. I was. That was something that I was I guess back in December probably when the whole Chris Paul stuff was. I guess it was December was going on. I was like, is that going to be the. You know, Harden Leonard, as far as the two guys when this thing was really sinking. I think they were like 6 and 21 at the time. But I had, you know, I've been in the last couple times. I have not heard anything about. That would be. Might as well, right? I mean like newly.
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A
Newly minted all Star Kawhi Leonard. By the way, Adam Silver. What a year.
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B
Speaking of. I mean that was the conspiracy theory.
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A
Going around, you know, that the coaches denied. I didn't buy that. That the coaches intentionally left to. I don't think the coaches care about capital circumvention. I think they probably have a general idea that like something maybe allegedly not great happened. But I. It was more an honor for LeBron. And now Kawhi is on had to be named by the commissioner whose league is investigating his doings. Which is delicious. I think this is a great move for the Clippers. I. I mean to turn Harden into Garland is to me a win. I don't think there was going to be any better deal out there. Like I remember going through Hardin trades like Rockets. Yeah. I don't think they're going to put Van Vliet on the table. The Bucks is desperate.
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B
Right. Minnesota.
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A
Minnesota never seemed like a. Like that was going to be a thing. And we'll talk about them with Giannis and stuff later. The Bucks is like a desperation team. But obviously the Bucks are now in. In a lot of different flux and may not be buyers of that nature anymore. I just think like it's no harm, no foul. And last thing on Cleveland. What does this do? It probably it doesn't do anything for what they can offer LeBron potentially in free agency. Right. Like what is their LeBron optionality now?
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B
Minimum is the minimum. Come on down.
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A
Trying to think if I have any other notes on this really, really interesting trade. And I get. I get maybe all that matters is the Cleveland Cavaliers. The 20, 25, 26 Cleveland Cavaliers are better now than they were three hours ago. And maybe that's all that matters for a team that's under this amount of pressure. I mean Mitchell's extension stuff.
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B
Yeah. The summer. So I think that that's.
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A
Is it this summer.
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B
Yeah. Oh, this summer's could be because this could. This summer could be pretty wild because you've got a lot of Mitchell and there's a bunch of guys. But yeah, I mean, Mitchell's extension eligible this summer. He's got a plan.
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A
He's marked as extension eligible in Summer 27 on Spotrek. But that must be wrong and. Or that must just be wrong.
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B
Cause he's, he's a free agent in. He could be a free agent in 27.
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A
Yeah, I think, I think maybe the player option is messing around with him. So it's this summer. That's what I thought then I looked.
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B
On there and I was like, there's pressure there, right? I mean like to try to improve upon what you did, you know. You know, it would be an interesting if they hadn't struggled so much this year. If some of these deals don't happen and they act, they have played well of late. You know, they, they got their doors blown off against Oklahoma City, but two wins in Philly I thought were impressive. They had a win at home, the Laker win, I think that was last week. You know, Laker team that's nah on the road. But if they have, if they were where they were a year ago, if they were like 36 and 10. Right. Like are you doing this? It's harder.
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A
Yeah. To your point about the longer term risk, if there is one, in aging up this far, the team is better today than it was five hours ago. It's going to have to reorient itself a little bit and answer some fit questions. But the team it was five hours ago with Garland potentially coming back Pretty soon was fourth in the East. Eight and 10 in their last 10 games. Puncher's chance of getting up to two, three or at the very least hopefully staying at four. Tied with Toronto home court first round in a conference where everyone agrees, like what that team can't win it. Of course Cleveland could have won it. So now you really have had to, you really have had to up your championship odds. And maybe, maybe that's what it's about. Maybe it's even thinking beyond the East. Like if we actually are lucky enough to get on the east, what do we need on the biggest stage? But boy, end of the Darius Garland era. Any final thoughts on this? Well, I will say it is a reminder that anytime players, even good players on good teams, and I'm talking Harden in this case are entering the final year of their contract, funny things can happen. And I took note when Wendy said the other day that he had heard Isaiah Hartenstein's name a little bit out in the, in the trade universe. I had not and I still really have, not to be honest with you. But I'm not saying he hears more than I do. And at first it struck me as like, whoa, he's really important to the team that just won the championship. Like, I didn't even. I'm very aware that there's a team option on both him and Lou Dort for next season.
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B
Newly clutch, clutch sports Lou Dort.
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A
There you go. I'm. I'm very aware what, what the Thunder's financial realities are going forward, and I've discussed the possibility of them declining those team options just to save money before if certain players are ready. They drafted Thomas Sorber, a center, last draft, but for some reason my mind didn't go to the next step of like, would they actually make a move during the season to try to thread the needle of maybe saving money and not losing talent? Losing so much present day talent in a trade. I don't know what that trade looks like. I just didn't even think about it.
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B
Because to me it's just cause it's not Sam's DNA.
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A
Well, if you're going full blast for the title, the title has to be priority number one and anything has to come after that.
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B
To me, I agree. I think the Hayward trade from what was that two years ago? It was kind of like, whoa, this is hard to make trades in season and then have it work out for you.
- [29:53]
A
I forgot that that happened. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. On or off the court, nothing beats a good friendly competition, especially when Michelo Boltra is on the line. So go see who can make more three pointers or who can land the sickest jumps on the slope. Winner gets a superior beer Worth playing for or with the Winter Games and end of football season coming up, play for bigger keeps with Michelob Ultra's latest challenge with a chance to win tickets to the biggest sporting events of the year. Enter now at michelobultra.com ultrainstructor Michelob Ultra Ultra Instructor no purchase necessary. Open to US residents. Swinging Her over begins on January 30, 2026 and ends on February 22, 2026. The official rules@michelobaltra.com rules for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. Whether you're watching highlights while parked or heading out for a drive, the 2026 Lincoln Nautilus HY you connected with smart tech that helps tie your on screen and off screen worlds together. So help turn every drive into an opportunity for discovery with a 2026 Lincoln Nautilus Hybrid learn more at lincoln.com available connectivity features and functionality vary by model. Package pricing trials and term lengths vary by model. Video streaming and games are only available while parked okay, let's go on to the next big deal of the day. The Utah Jazz acquire Jaren Jackson Jr. From the Memphis Grizzlies in exchange and they get some players with him. Jock Lando is a good player. Vince Williams is a good player. John Conchar is desperate to get some rotation players in exchange for, you know, some players. Most notably I think Walter Clayton Jr. And Taylor Hendricks. Two young players but mostly three first round draft picks. Yes, a 2027 first round pick that is the best of a bunch of teams. Could be Utah's Utahs that's could something 2027 not 2026. The Lakers pick one to four protected in 2027 and the Phoenix pick unprotected in 2031 to put Jaren Jackson Jr. Who is under contract through 2030 with a $50 million average salary over the next four years after this one. Yeah to pair him with Lowry Markkanen, presumably Walker Kessler who is a restricted free agent and all the reporting and everything I've heard is they intend to bring him back and at least experiment with a triple big lineup and then a young core of Keonte George who I think like he may not be the reason this trade happened but I'm not sure this trade happens without the Jazz feeling pretty certain we've got a guy on the perimeter in Chiata. George, let's hit the gas a little bit. K George Ace Bailey I think has been very solid as a rookie. Cody Williams is showing he may be like a rotation piece and then you know we'll see what Collier and Sensible and and notably who the Utah Jazz might end up picking in this coming draft which is very interesting to me because Jaren Jackson Jr. Is going to help them win basketball games. They owe a top eight protect to pick to Oklahoma City. They have the sixth worst record in the NBA right now. They have been sitting people left and right for the last three or four weeks after two back to back wins over the spurs and the Pistons made them dangerously close to being competent. I would expect them to try to keep that pick but the chicanery only gets deeper because they've added another really good veteran player. What do you think of Utah cashing in? I mean they've cashed in almost all of their Minnesota, Cleveland, Gobert Mitchell draft equity. Now the last batch of it here For Jaren Jackson Jr, let's start from their perspective. This is their cap space being used, right. This is Utah saying no one is going to come here as a free agent, so we're going to get somebody who's under contract. So it's their cap space and their draft bounty, the final batch of it used in one big transaction. For a guy who has become, I think, quite a polarizing player in the NBA.
- [33:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's two things with, with this trade that doesn't happen unless these two things happen. The one was the trade. Remember last year when Utah made that trade with Phoenix and they traded three of their lesser picks and they got that Phoenix pick for in 31, that unprotected first. And then the other one was Jackson Jr. Renegotiating his contract this summer and then extending it for four more years. It goes from 35. I like him at 35. Do I like him at 50? A little rich 50 across the board, basically. I think if those two things don't happen, we probably don't have a deal here because Utah is not trading for a guy on a one year contract and giving up their, the rest of their really good picks. And from what I understand, the 31 Phoenix first was kind of the crown jewel of what was included along with, as we've said, that 27 the most favorable, which, hey, Utah's in the Western Conference. Right. Like, we'll see what happens. As far as where their roster goes, I understand taking a big swing because as you said, basically they were going to have cap space. Who are you using cap space on? I've started looking at the free agent market this summer. It is basically dominated by no offense, old players. Right. Like 70% are guys in their 30s. Like that's the reality of it.
- [35:12]
A
They were floated around the league, I'm sure you've heard as an Austin Reaves max slot destination. That's gone now. But the way George has played, I mean he's been terrific. I don't know that Austin Reeves at $45 million or whatever it would be is the best use of their cap space.
- [35:29]
B
Yeah, no, he's, he's been, it's been, you know, you loved guys like, because the one thing with, the one thing with Utah was like, you know, like you say, like they can, they keep, they can spin the wheel on drafting and drafting and drafting and picking three guys. Like eventually like one of these guys are going to have hit, right. You're going to need like a blue chipper in there and he has Been terrific and I agree with you. I the development of him as far as where he is right now. Not sure this trade happens if he has had kind of flatlined a little bit here. But I think the most interesting thing this year, as you said, like you got four live bodies, right? They're all healthy, I believe. If you want to keep your pick, how are we going to do it?
- [36:12]
A
You know, it's like the flu is going to have to go around a bunch of times. Just like man, people keep passing it to each other. I don't know, like just. I'm sick too, Adam, you know. Sorry. You know, I think it would be.
- [36:24]
B
Interesting too you mentioned with Kessler Walker who's out for the year. Like you've, I mean you've heard like there's some teams sniffing around like you know, offer sheet type stuff. You know, what's the number They're Utah will be comfortable matching guy coming off an injury, you know, if the goal is to go with three bigs, you know, because that's going to be. You know it's funny though, you know, we always, we talk about cap space in the off season, right? Like, oh, there could be like seven or eight teams. You know how many teams have cap space this, this summer?
- [36:56]
A
Zach Lowe, well, one of them just vanished and we're talking about them right now.
- [36:59]
B
The other one we're going to talk about in a minute is, is Chicago. Like there's they, they've chipped away a little bit there and now you're looking at Brooklyn and the Lakers probably and the Wizards.
- [37:11]
A
Yeah, it doesn't. And if I'm the Wizards, like I know the Wizards were linked to Sabonis. I don't think that was ever. I mean they definitely, there was a conversation in the last three months, sure. But I think that was more the Wizards. Like if we can get them for it, like if you're going to give us an asset to take him, we'll do it. I don't think they wanted really aggressively to go get Sabonis. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not trying to like muck up Alex Sarves development at center with another high priced center. I think Jackson Markkanen Kessler can work fine. Like if you're going to play three big guys together, two of them have to be able to shoot and face up and Markkanen And Jaren Jackson Jr. Can do that at a very high level for big men. And Walker Kessler can do Walker Kessler things and then you, if it ends up being Something that you play 12 minutes a game, 15 minutes a game because it doesn't work as well as you hope. That's fine too. There's plenty of minutes for three frontcourt players. The Wolves are living this right now with Randall, Gobert, Reed. Like it's not, it's not that hard to do. You do mention the blue chip thing. You know, they fell to what, fifth in the lottery last year and picked Ace Bailey, who looks good. I'm not, I don't know what Ace Bailey's going to be. I've been impressed with him as a rookie. He's really dialed in on defense. He cuts, he moves the ball. He's like completely different than I thought he would be as a rookie. Keonte George is a very good player for where they drafted him. Is he like an A1 guy? I don't know. I think he's going to make be an all star and they just haven't, the lottery gods haven't been kind to them and then they took these sort of half tank measures in every season before last year. They get off to a good start and be like oh crap, we're good and pull the rug out and by then you're picking eighth instead of second or third or wherever. And if they don't hit the lottery this year, then there is some chance like Jaren Jackson Jr. Is really good. I'm probably higher on him than consensus. I think his flaws are. He's almost Townsend in that his flaws are so obvious and so and so loud. Like he doesn't get rebounds but he, his teams generally rebound pretty well. I think there's something going on there. He, he does take himself out of like every three games with dumb fouls and it's just, it just is what it is. I think his defense is back near where it was when he won defensive player of the year. If not quite, they're pretty close. Offensively he's become a pretty versatile player. He's only an okay passer and there's a sort of sort of passing deficit collectively on this Utah team. But he's a very good player. All that said, I do think there's some chance that Utah has sort of bought itself a good to very good but is it ever going to be great team? And it's too early to say that because we don't know where they're going to draft and we don't know what Ace Bailey is going to be. But I think they're like, I think there is some. Will Hardy is a great coach and he'll maximize this group. Is it good? They could be a 50 win team. They could be a 50 win team like next year if all things go right. Is this going to be a championship team in the next five years in the West? I have a hard time seeing that from here, but that's also okay. I mean it's been a long dark wandering in the wilderness for Utah.
- [40:16]
B
No, I agree. I mean when was the Mitchell trade Was in. Was at 22 some.
- [40:20]
A
Yeah. The Mitchell Gobert stuff is four years ago and they've used almost all that stuff to get the Phoenix pick. And then now they have one, I think one surplus pick and a couple of swaps still left over. So they're not, they're not at a deficit. They're still at a surplus. It's just they're not now one of the teams that controls the whole league.
- [40:37]
B
I think they have like eight first. I think eight first in the next seven years. Four are tradable here. So they're not like, it's just, they just went from, you know, a big number now and they. And that's. Listen, you can either parlay these picks into players in the draft if you have the patience, you know, you keep on waiting and waiting or you're going to parlay them into players like, like players that can help you try to turn this thing around.
- [41:02]
A
And, and when they didn't trade marketing, I think they made that decision almost at that moment. Because once you decide we're not trading marketin, you can't then a year later, a year and a half later go back. You know what, we're going to bottom out now after four years of being bad. Now we're going to bottom out again and be bad for four more years. So, you know, I think it's fine for Utah. I don't. I will see where. We'll see where they go. But Jaren Jackson Jr. Is a really good player. They got to figure out the playmaking part of this a little bit. And Will Hardy's coaching will help. Memphis Morant could be next. I think they'd love to get off Morant if they can find a market in this sort of.
- [41:38]
B
Price comes down a little bit now, right?
- [41:40]
A
Their, their demand, their ask. Yeah.
- [41:43]
B
You got seven first from Bain and Jaren in the last two trades. It's pretty good.
- [41:51]
A
The ask could come down. And so after a grand total of one playoff series win, the Morant Bane Jackson trio could be over. Replaced by Edie Cedric Coward.
- [42:06]
B
And you tweeted I love me some Cedric Coward.
- [42:09]
A
Oh my God, they nailed that. He's going to be so good. And then you outlined on Twitter all the picks that they have. They have their own first for the next seven years. All of them.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah.
- [42:22]
A
A more favorable extra pick, either Orlando or Phoenix this year. The Lakers pick that I mentioned, the other 2027 pick I mentioned, swaps with Orlando, another unprotected first with Orlando and the Phoenix pick. They got a lot of stuff for breaking up that group. And I'll start here. I saw a lot of angst online today from Grizzlies fans and from even reporters who just sort of have an affinity for the Grizzlies. I want to name check Matt Moore, who I think is really good. Just sort of disillusioned that this is where we ended up, that, that, that the rug was pulled out from this team prematurely. That they went, they put too many chips in the Ed bucket and have now sort of reoriented the team in a rush around Edie and given up early on a defensive player of the year multi time all star who's in his prime. And what are the chances we ever get a player that good with one or multiple or all of these picks put together? And I get that. I get the feeling of that. I think that a little bit elides two things, if allied is the right word. Number one, I think once the Moran situation went sideways, there was a sense internally that the entire construct of the team kind of falls away with John Moran not being at all NBA level player and certainly not being reliable. And number two, and Matt mentioned that to his credit. But number two, I just think the Grizzlies understood that Jaren Jackson Jr. 49 million, 50 million, 52 million, 53 million. If he goes sideways a little bit or plateaus, we could be almost in jail with that contract in a couple of years. The Knicks are kind of in jail with Towns, who makes more admittedly. And if we can get three good picks or three picks, one of which, two of which might be really good, that's actually pretty good value. I don't mind this for them from a value perspective. I think it's actually, I think this is probably selling about as high as they could sell because that contract, you could find teams in the league of like, man, we don't. We, we like the player but not the contract.
- [44:32]
B
Yeah, I mean I, I think it's, it's almost, you know, you, you saw it in the summer with the Bain traded, the roster you basically had expired. You basically kind of hit as far as where you were thought you could go here. And when the Jaw stuff came out in January, I thought it certainly set the wheels in motion. As far as what happened was with Jaren. When I was at the game last night against the Clippers or on Monday night against Clippers, I had a team exec come up to me and said pay attention to Memphis. I'm hearing that roster is going to look awfully different on Thursday. And then you start thinking it's not jaw, right. Because we're still trying to think where's Jock? Where could he find. And so it had to be Jaren here. I think the picks all have some type of value to it. You would certainly rank probably the Phoenix pick first and then maybe that 27 pick second, maybe that Laker pick. Who knows what happens with that Ross. But you know Luke will be on that roster when that pick comes to fruition. But who, right. What are they doing in this summer? Right. They basically are going to have to turn over most of it with, with, with this group here. But you're right, I think as I said, I. When you renegotiate and extend and you're using cap space and you go from. It's similar to like not to the extent of Mikhail. Like I like Mikhail bridges on a $24 million contract. Do I like Mikhail Bridges on a 36, $37 million deal? Like Long, like that's a little bit dicey. But with Jaren it's a big number, man. Like 50, 50 is a big number.
- [46:07]
A
And again I think he's really good. I think he's the kind of player who a lot of teams were probably, I know a lot of teams like yeah, we like him. We'd be interested in him and not as many would be when the rubber hits the road, be like here's three first round picks and some other stuff to make it happen. And if he's the Same player in two years or he's 5% worse in two years in jail is probably too strong a word. But we've seen these contracts at this level. 30% of the cap are hard to move for non superstar players. And Jaren Jackson Jr. Is a star. I don't think he is a superstar. Mikhail Bridges, by the way is an apt name to mention because the road not taken for the Grizzlies is remember they were like dangling all their first round picks for Durant, for Mikhail Bridges, for Og Anunoby and they couldn't strike a deal. That was when they had Bane and Morant and Jackson. They were going to go all in. They couldn't strike a deal. So it's interesting you mentioned when they acquired.
- [47:06]
B
I remember that when they acquired right there was it when they acquired Bridges, Brooklyn did for the rant and basically Memphis was like hey, we'll give you everything if you do everything here. Yeah.
- [47:17]
A
So this is fine. I mean I understand it's depressing but this is now a long, a long haul rebuild and in Memphis that may be the way you have to do it. I do think the team they had was a really good and really fun team. It also couldn't really do much in the playoffs. Injuries explained a lot of that. Ja had been injured, Steven Adams was injured, Clark was injured. They had a lot of injuries. In fairness. And then once Morant went from is he going to be a first team all NBA guy to is he going to be available at all? I think that changed everything. So interesting trade. It'll be interesting to revisit down the line. I think it's fine for both teams. You want to ready to move on or any parting thoughts on this?
- [47:57]
B
I got to turn my next note card here.
- [48:00]
A
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- [48:28]
B
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- [49:03]
A
The Celtics trade Anthony Simons and a second round pick. A good one.
- [49:10]
B
Yeah, it is a good one to.
- [49:12]
A
The Chicago Bulls for Nicole Avucevich and a worse second round pick. Where would you like to start here, Bobby?
- [49:22]
B
I don't. You know I'm not as I Like, I like what, you know, Boston's got a good eye for personnel. I. I don't know, man. I guess Anthony Simon's kind of stole my heart a little bit this year.
- [49:36]
A
I mean, he's been good for him.
- [49:39]
B
You know, I mean, like, and I get it, you. I saw somebody last night and we were talking about Celtics just before the trade and they said, yeah, Kada name is Katie. Yeah, he's had a good year. Right. As far as what his role has been kind of worried when you get to the playoffs, as far as where that front court is. And I think V, you know, I, I don't want to say poor man's version, but it's kind of, I guess, similar to what, how they used Horford a little bit or how they will, you know, use him. But, you know, in order to get something, you got to give up something here and you lose a, you know, a six man off your bench. In Simons who's having a good year, the pick is the pick. It's the New Orleans pick second, which could be a 31st or 32nd pick in a draft. So I'm kind of like just, I get it. I'm not like dancing in the streets because of the trade here. Now listen, you tell me we're going to see Tatum come back, then we're talking here, right? Like, and that's a big if with that. But I understand, I understand them going out and trying to get a center and you have to swap out a guard in Simons to do that. I think the most incredible thing I put a stat up before where their payroll was this summer compared to now is like, it's like $300 million and they're tied for second in the Eastern Conference.
- [51:07]
A
Yeah, they've gone from Jrue Holiday 32 million to Anthony Simons 27 million, to Nikola Vucevic 21 million. And then you factor in the tax.
- [51:15]
B
Stuff and it's like they're under the first apron now. So what that means is that I know buyout season is a little bit overrated. A bit. But hey, maybe there's a guy out there that gets waived who's got a salary that they can go out and sign now and do something with that.
- [51:33]
A
Well, explain to people why being under the face apron what that allows them to do.
- [51:37]
B
If you are over either apron, you are not allowed to sign a player who is waived and had a pre existing salary of 14.1 million. That's the non taxman level. So hypothetically, if Chris Middleton was bought out of his contract. I'm just throwing out a name. Was bought out of his contract with the Wizards. You would have not been allowed to sign him. Now when you go under the either, you know, both aprons now, that gives you the flexibility now to go out and sign a player. It's why we're, you know, like, if LeBron had agreed to a buyout in the middle of the year and with the Lakers, he would not be allowed to go signing Cleveland because they are an apron team.
- [52:17]
A
Yes. So the savings is big for Boston on multiple ways that are not just like, oh, great, the new owner gets to save some money. Simons has been good this year, 40% from 3, 14, 15 a game. Has sort of found his footing in the last six weeks and has given Boston real pop off the bench, like he said, some big scoring games and just sort of the comfort level. This is the number two offense, I think, in the NBA right now. The comfort level. You feel that we can have two of White, Pritchard, Simons and Brown on the floor at all times without overtaxing any of them. I think has been like a source of rotational security for Joe Missoula. And now he's gone and in comes Vuchevic, who is shooting well. He's having his like once every three years. He's shooting really well from three season. Look, we all knew they needed front court help. I don't think Vucovic is going to play significant if any minutes alongside Keita or alongside Luca Garza, the other two big men that are in the rotation. But he's probably better than Garza. He is better than Garza, are certainly more dangerous offensively and it's just another tool in the box. Like I think that Pistons game where they lost recently and Jaren Jalen Duran just bullied and bulldozered all over the floor. I think that left a scar on the Celtics. We need another bruiser, like a bigger guy here. And you mentioned Tatum, and to me, Tatum is the key thing hovering over all of this. To be as blunt as possible, if he comes back, he's another perimeter player and that renders Simons expendable at the cost. If the benefit is adding a big man. And if he doesn't come back, we're probably not going to win the whole thing anyway or make the finals. And so we might as well save some money. I think that's sort of what the deal looks like to me.
- [54:06]
B
No, I agree. I mean, they save about 22 million towards the luxury tax year and you're Right. If he doesn't come back, it's we.
- [54:16]
A
Are who we are.
- [54:17]
B
Which is shoot. I mean it's, it's a fun team to watch. You know, when you, when you, you know, you got your hat on your. Our Mets two years ago, that was a fun team to watch. Right. Two years ago, nobody expected anything from us.
- [54:31]
A
You know what, it was really fun to watch when I had no job and I could drink during the games and not worry about what I was going to do the next day. It was a great time. Highly recommend. And then you go out and pay.
- [54:42]
B
Someone $700 million and it's not as fun to watch. To watch. So I think that's for Celtics. I'm not saying they just paid someone 700, but when you have no expectations, it is certainly a lot different.
- [54:53]
A
I'll say. I would like. I saw Sean's tweet. There's probably ESPN social team tweeted some graphic like the Celtics have found their center and it was a picture of Vuch in a Celtics jersey. To me he should be their backup five. Like I'm not taking Kata out of the starting five.
- [55:10]
B
Terrific.
- [55:11]
A
Vuch is a big name. That's cool. He does some things really well. That's cool. Kate is the starter. And I think the Celtics have benefited from a sort of active, moving, interior oriented presence. Fast twitch cuts around the basket, offensive rebounds. And Vucc fits that Horford mode of I'm just going to hang around the three point line and set screens and space the floor. And Boston is a professional goddamn basketball team in every sense of the word. He fits that their spacing is impeccable. Like this team sticks to its spacing and its principles as strictly as any team in the NBA. They do not mess up in almost any way, but especially their spacing. Vuch fits into that. He's an extremely low turnover player for a team that has been either first or second and turnover rate the entire year. And in a pinch he can post up some switches, kind of adding the Porzingis gear that the Celtics had. I dare get too excited about. Here comes like a 12 foot lefty hook from Vuchevic because he never gets to the line but you know, he adds some stuff and he's another big body. I don't mind it for the Celtics even, even if it costs them Simons. I do say for the Bulls and we're going to get to the last trade of the day, the Bulls, exchange of guards and all that. They have a million guards. There's certainly one or two Other shoes that are going to drop in the next 48 hours. Bought as high as you possibly could on Vucc and sold as low as you possibly. It's just. It's just. It's just as flat out not a great series of transactions.
- [56:44]
B
20, 21 trade deadline.
- [56:45]
A
I don't know, man.
- [56:46]
B
It feels like March wasn't the typical trade deadline because of COVID We had a March trade deadline, and the Franz.
- [56:53]
A
Wagner pick, of course, became the centerpiece of that. Of that trade. It's just, you know, it's been. It's been a. It's been a half decade for the Bulls. Yeah. Speaking of which, all reports are that Zach Levine is going to pick up his player option in Sacramento. I'm trying to think if I have any. I mean, yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't. Good. Good for Vuch that he gets to play on a good team. I guess I don't really have any thoughts on this as a Bulls fan. I would just be like, yeah, okay, let's move on to the next thing. Okay, one more trade. You ready?
- [57:28]
B
Let's go.
- [57:29]
A
Oh, I have a V question for you.
- [57:31]
B
Sure.
- [57:33]
A
I was watching a Bulls game recently when Vuch had a double double and his home broadcast teams are want to do. They had Adam Amin and Stacy King, who are awesome, had a stat ready about how Vuch has the second most double doubles in the league since his. Since whatever year behind only LeBron. I may be misquoting the stat, but it's something like that. And my first thought was, wait, what? More than Jokic? And then my second thought was this. Should a triple double count as two double doubles? Are they separate things? So, like, when you get a triple double, bonus points. You can't get a double double because a triple. What is a triple double if not two double doubles?
- [58:23]
B
You should.
- [58:24]
A
If Vuch has more double doubles than Jokic. Clearly a double double is only one specific thing. Two tens in one category. And if you get a third, you're out of the double double. You only get a triple double. That's all.
- [58:36]
B
Well, it's almost like you're being penalized for double doubles when you have a triple double.
- [58:42]
A
This is how my brain works, man. It's not. It's a sad. It's a sad.
- [58:46]
B
I tell you what.
- [58:46]
A
Here.
- [58:47]
B
You know how my brain works, Zach. You know, I like to play tennis. Playing tennis last week and I got a text about the apron. Someone has asked me an apron. A team out. Text me the apron question. And that is for the Next hour. I'm thinking about the apron. I'm out there whacking. I'm just thinking about the apron.
- [59:07]
A
Do you have an apron that references the NBA apron? Like do you have an actual kitchen barbecue apron?
- [59:15]
B
I have two. I have a Lowe's and I have a Home Depot apron that someone made for me.
- [59:20]
A
But does it mention like the NBA apron?
- [59:23]
B
Yeah. Oh yeah. It's at home. I didn't bring it. It's at home.
- [59:26]
A
Wow.
- [59:27]
B
I wear it around the house cooking burgers.
- [59:31]
A
That's great.
- [59:32]
B
They can be brownies.
- [59:33]
A
Last trade of the day. A confusing three team extravaganza.
- [59:38]
B
I think there's more to this. I think this might get a little bigger here.
- [59:42]
A
Let's talk it out. It's Bulls, Pistons, Wolves. Yeah. The Bulls get Jade and Ivy.
- [59:50]
B
Yeah.
- [59:50]
A
And Mike Conley.
- [59:52]
B
Yeah.
- [59:53]
A
Who I think will be bought out.
- [59:55]
B
I don't think we'll see Mike Conley in Chicago.
- [59:58]
A
Detroit gets Kevin Herder.
- [60:00]
B
Yep.
- [60:01]
A
And Dario Saric, who I'm sorry to my Croatian brother but is not so.
- [60:06]
B
Relevant in this trader tenure in Chicago.
- [60:10]
A
Yeah. Great memories. And the Wolves get cash. And the Pistons also got a pick swap with the Wolves this year, which actually bought them.
- [60:22]
B
Which actually it's like goes I was looking at before 29 to 20. If a season ended right now, 29 to 23.
- [60:29]
A
Hey, so the headline here is what are the Wolves doing? We'll get there. The sub headline here is I've been waiting to see what Detroit would do at the trade deadline because I've been arguing that they should do at least something that this is a year where the conference is just ripe for the taking, that their offense is going to have some issues in the playoffs because of their spacing. And we've been imagining these like Tobias plus Ivy plus picks, you know, for marketing or whatever. Clearly such a thing did not materialize and it feels a little disappointing at first blush to turn what was a prize number five pick in Jaden Ivy, half of your backcourt of the future with Cade Cunningham into a pick swap to go up six, seven spots, whatever it is. And Kevin Herder, kind of a journeyman shooting guard who's fine. That seems kind of like, oh, that's all they could get for Jaden Ivey who has turned himself into a good three point shooter. 37% this year, 40 something percent in limited action last year before his leg injury. I guess that's all they could get for if you're not going to put him in to a blockbuster deal as like the young Guy carrot which maybe he didn't have that appeal anyway. Actually think. I think Kevin Herder is going to be useful for Detroit in the playoffs as he hasn't shot it well this year. But I'll trust the track record as a three point shooter who offers a little bit more on defense than Duncan Robinson. And just like another if a Sar Thompson's cramping our spacing and it's just he's having one of those games where the cons outweigh the pros. You know, I've, I always have had the feel that like LeVert plus Jenkins plus Cade is just too much of the same thing or similar on ball thing at the same time. I think it's another tool in the toolbox. It's not quite what I hoped for when I, when I kept saying I think Detroit will do something and take a little bit of a swing. But it's, it's something, it's something. I think it'll help them.
- [62:33]
B
No, I agree. I mean and I agree with you as far as with, you know, the Ivy part is interesting just because, you know, the injury a year, I think it was a year ago, right, when he basically was. Broke his leg and was out for the year. I mean that really hurt him because I thought he was playing really well before that injury and he was going to be a restricted free agent. There was no extension. What were you gonna pay him? You gotta pay Duran now. I mean that's, you know, can't, you can't do everything. Herder, 31, four from three this year, a little bit down. Pistons ranked 21st in three point shooting. I think for them they've got to be in, in the teens, high teens. But here's the one I just looked at his Kevin Herder, 30 playoff games last two years. Zach Lowe, it's not great. 29% and 20.5, 20.5%.
- [63:38]
A
And I remember that, that Kings Warriors 7 gamer where I think he had a good last couple. I'm going off the top of my head. I think he had a good last couple of games in that series and I admired it because he had to dig himself out of such a deep shooting slump where it was like it had reached a point where the crow was in agony like audibly after every miss. He's been better this year frankly as like a screen, like a short role playmaker, like screen cut, dive, move off the ball. He's a decent defender. Yeah, the shooting has just come and gone and he's, he's had enough of those Playoff games where you start to wonder is, is the pressure and the extra defensive attention getting to him? A little bit. But we've had other guys who we thought that about. And then as the sample size got big enough in the playoffs, the shots started to go at the rate you'd expect. And so look, it's not, it's not what I envisioned, but I do think, I mean, Ivy felt like he was. It felt like it had run its course with Detroit, that he was kind of a forgotten man. He played 12 minutes, 15 minutes, 18 minutes. And just the fit with Cade was only okay. It's worth a shot for the Bulls. I mean, the thing with Ivy is he's become a decent shooter. The playmaking decision making just hasn't sort of caught up with the shooting. But I think it's worth a flyer for the Bulls as long as you don't go crazy paying them.
- [65:02]
B
Oh, I agree. I mean, before, I was just looking at his numbers before his injury last year, 40, 46 and 41. 18, almost 18 points. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's kind of like those are the moves I think with Chicago as far as, you know, taking those, you know, the forgotten first round picks that teams are probably discarding here and see if you can, you know, shining them up. So it's worth, I mean, it's. It's worth it, you know, based on where you, I mean, you got a lot of guards. It is interesting when you talk about Chicago just for teams, Zach. The two guys that are circled the most or for. For that teams covet are Tre Jones and IO Those are the two guards that teams love.
- [66:00]
A
Trey Jones came there from the spurs as part of the.
- [66:08]
B
Fox trade, right?
- [66:09]
A
Oh, Fox. Yeah. I knew it was some Kings Bulls of Spurs extravaganza. Yeah, Fox as sort of like with Herder as well, and, and Zach Collins and I was a draft pick of theirs and every smart team is onto IO now. Like you're not stealing him under the radar now. And so that's. I was going to say let's spin it forward. You said there's more, there's more to come.
- [66:32]
B
Yeah, I just, I think this thing. I was so I just saw like it's not going. They're. They're going to wait on this to basically see if they can. Maybe this thing gets expanded. I think the Minnesota part is going to be interesting. Right? Like they save, they get under the apron. They saved like $20 million. Someone had an agent text me, they said, what do you do with that money? You have A big pizza party. A lot of cheese pies. No, no, no, no.
- [67:01]
A
I want the hot sauce, pepperoni.
- [67:03]
B
Let's.
- [67:03]
A
Let's split for you. Let's go. Come on. A rod. Give us some good pizza.
- [67:07]
B
Now what. What do you do? What. What is your next. What are you gonna. Is this it? Are you gonna tell Anthony Edwards, you know what? Save $20 million for you?
- [67:18]
A
No, you're not going to tell Anthony Edwards that.
- [67:20]
B
So what is going to be next for the Minnesota Timberwolves here?
- [67:23]
A
Okay, so let's go there. They're under the. They're under the first apron, which I.
- [67:29]
B
Believe 3.8 over the tax. And they are under the fir. Yeah. First and second. Yep.
- [67:35]
A
So if you get under the first apron, if you're apronless, if you're just naked, aprons are flying in the wind, the thing you can do is you can now take back more money than you send out in a trade, right? Yeah.
- [67:46]
B
As long as your post transactional salary leaves you under. Yep.
- [67:49]
A
So that's a big. That's a big deal. That's a lot more freedom when you. When you shed those pesky aprons. And they've saved money. Obviously, everybody wants to connect this to Giannis because they have been one of the, let's say, half dozen teams that are on the inner circle, I guess, of Giannis pursuers. No one quite knows how they're going to do this, other than Jaden McDaniels would certainly have to be in it. They don't have other picks at their.
- [68:17]
B
Disposal, or he goes somewhere else and you're getting picks to, you know.
- [68:23]
A
You know, I'm saying it's one way or another. Jada McDaniels is not on the Timberwolves.
- [68:27]
B
Yeah.
- [68:28]
A
But even that, are. Are they getting enough just out of that to get Giannis? Like, what does Randall go? What. What value does he have? Gobert? This and that. How. How materially, how does a Mike Conley salary dump help them potentially get Giannis? Is it just that apron flexibility that I mentioned?
- [68:49]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, you're still. I think they're like two and change below the first apron. And so giannis is at 54 million. And, you know, you can take back. You can send out $52 million. Right. Like, so it gives you that a little bit of that. It's not like the, oh, my God, we're under the first eight. You know, it's like the bells and whistles and stuff like that. You're still going to have to send out. It's not like you can just send out 43 million. You still got to send out a bunch. And it's as you said, like McDaniels or whatever to get to that number. There's still a lot of work to do. And as you mentioned, there's no picks. Right.
- [69:28]
A
Like they're basically no one has been able to explain exactly how Tim Connolly would pull this off. I don't doubt that there's a pathway. I just don't know what it is.
- [69:36]
B
Yeah, I don't either. I mean it's like, you know, is it, it's what it's a combination of McDaniels. Is it one of the bigs reader Randall I think I'm sure Dillingham would be in there somewhere. I mean I think they're, I think the Rob Dillingham era is probably over in, in Minnesota. But yeah, I mean and still that's not, that's not the enticing package if you're in Milwaukee.
- [70:08]
A
No, it's, it shouldn't be the most enticing. It's certainly not enticing enough for me to do it now instead of like I've Someone has to pass the wait for the summer test.
- [70:19]
B
Yeah.
- [70:20]
A
And whether that's golden state with their four first round picks, which is really 3.75 first round picks and young players, whether it's Miami, let's say they go out and get another first round pick and so it's three plus all their young players, plus like you whether those pass the wait till the summer test is really up to the Bucks ownership and John Horst and you and me. I don't think that Minnesota deal passes the weight for the summer test, but Tim Connolly has been known to pull multiple rabbits out of multiple hats. But here's the thing you just mentioned all these people going the Wolves are a very good are they going to win the West? I don't know. They're my dark horse in that way, but they're a dark horse. They're not Oklahoma City and they're not Denver who lost to Detroit tonight, by the way. That's a game I'll be curious to watch tomorrow morning or late. Tonight Detroit beat Denver 124, 121 pistons just rolling right along. Orlando getting smoked by the Thunder. That's my funk team, man. That's my funk team. It's going to be if it ain't in the next 48 hours, it's going to be in December. This team's going to look different if this funk, if this stench does not.
- [71:30]
B
Dissipate I salary team in the summer.
- [71:35]
A
Something will change there. Coach players, both. We'll see. Because they're about to be one game over. 500. That's pretty depressing. What the hell were we talking about? Oh, the Wolves. The Wolves are good. Perhaps not great, but good. And they play the good teams really well. Thus the back to back conference finals appearances. Can't wipe that away as a fluke. And you get to conference finals two years in a row, you're a damn good team. So damn good as is. They're also very thin. There are nights where Nas Reed is basically the entire bench production scoring wise by himself, plus or minus a Bones Highland explosion. And Bones has been pretty good for the last six weeks. But they're thin. If you're talking like three for one or four for one or four for two. Yeah, the one is Giannis who's the third best player in the NBA probably he's also injured and like are you just going to be a six man team? Like those are questions you have to address somehow.
- [72:40]
B
Well and that's the thing, you know, even when you talk New York, which I don't think, I think New York is, I don't, I haven't heard any traction regarding New York. I think that would be more of a summer, summer thing as far as where they are after the playoffs are done. I, I keep on getting my wrap my head around like Giannis is out. Although there's a video of him shooting today on the court. You know we never got a medical report. Did we ever get a medical report from the Bucks on his and I know he self diagnosed himself.
- [73:12]
A
The whole thing has been very fishy. His four to six weeks which I've heard through my back channels is more or less accurate but he also is a superhuman healer. So you never know. To the Bucks as a team official statement being like yeah, there's no timetable, just we're not giving you anything. Just there's. We got, we got too much going on for there to be a timetable right now. So take this nothing and like it.
- [73:35]
B
Media so, so I regarding Minnesota, I just have a hard time as you said, a team that's trying to compete for a championship, trying to compete for a high seed, trading three players away in the middle with 30 games left in the year for a guy that is hurt right now. Like I just keep on coming back to that and like core guys like not just you know like end of the bench and we're going to give you. I mean they don't have first trade but core guys.
- [74:05]
A
Beloved local fan base guys. And maybe that's okay because like a lot of these Giannis teams, if not all of them that would move now, you're doing it more for next year, at least as much for next year, if not more than you're doing it for this year, which really isn't awesome. If you're trading everything for a 31 year old with the calf injury history. You should be prioritizing this playoff run as much as anything else. But I, I, I don't see a team that's really well positioned to do that. Particularly if a Wolves team who'd give you three guys for one or four guys for one. But again we'll see. Have you found a Cinderella Giannis team yet? Like a totally off the beaten path like maybe this team could get Yanis. I have. For instance I've talked about Orlando with Paolo but he's poison pilled. We've talked about that.
- [74:58]
B
That's almost like I think it's interesting like if we get past Thursday at 3 like and he hasn't been traded I think it just opens up to a lot more things.
- [75:09]
A
Well I'm talking now though like and.
- [75:11]
B
I said I could really like you know I've heard like you know Portland because they have their picks in 28 like you know it's like my favorite movie Draft day, right? I'll give you a goddamn picks back. Remember that movie?
- [75:22]
A
So the worst fucking he's, he should have been fired seven times in that movie.
- [75:28]
B
So like Portland and then like you know Toronto, you know like hey you know I was on Toronto radio this morning and we're talking like why does always Toronto mentioned and things. I was like because you have a lot of things right. You've got to let picks and you got a couple young players and you've got some, a lot of contracts.
- [75:46]
A
Although that Pearl number I just, I just never it over the summer I awarded it my unofficial most inexplicable contract of the summer. You know what, hey guys, you know what we should do? Jakob Pertle can be a free agent in like three years. We gotta get ahead of that like 31 year old center who can't shoot free throws. Like we gotta get how about like 30 mil at for the three years after we could we get ahead of that now it's never made.
- [76:13]
B
It's the rare that you look at the cap sheet and he still has, he still has two years left of his Other contract. Yeah.
- [76:22]
A
Toronto, Cleveland. I've mentioned this has to be mentioned that Evan Mobley could be the best player.
- [76:28]
B
Yeah.
- [76:29]
A
The Bucks could get for Giannis. I still don't think Cleveland is doing that even in the wake of this hardened trade. But just, yeah.
- [76:36]
B
Like, Philly, like I was watching, you know, watching Philly last night, and I'm like, milwaukee would love a VJ Edge comb, but I don't see Philly doing that.
- [76:44]
A
I think Philly has to continue. You could not get carried away with Embiid's last 20 games and forget the Paul George suspension, which I talked about should reinforce this even more. Everything you do should be on the maxi Edgecomb timetable now. Everything you do. I even played around with Boston.
- [77:02]
B
Yeah.
- [77:03]
A
Like, would. Would Boston dare do like a Jalen Brown for Giannis kind of concept? And I don't see that happening either.
- [77:11]
B
Yeah, like, I mean, listen, he is a terrific player, but you talked to teams and it, listen, it's, it's not AD level for the extension. Like, AD is like, oh, I don't know what I want to pay him. It's a big number. You know, I mean, the Giannis extension is a big number. And he's, and he's 31 and it's, you know, you're basically. What are you paying, like 70 million a year almost. It's, it's ETA. That's. That is a big commitment and you better make sure that you've got some other things left on your roster.
- [77:44]
A
That's why I'm saying like this. This season, as brief as there is left, should not be a throwaway, ideally for any team acquiring Giannis. And yet I can't really find a team that could get Giannis in season right now. And maybe other than Minnesota, which seems a long shot to me and New York, which seems a long shot to me. Like, I don't, I don't think Golden State gets Giannis and they're a title contender. Certainly Atlanta, Miami. Some of the teams we've talked about get Giannis. I don't see them as like, listen.
- [78:14]
B
I mean, I've talked about it. The Golden State stuff is probably. Is the cleanest. Right.
- [78:19]
A
Sure.
- [78:19]
B
Just like pick what you want outside of Curry. Right. Like, here you go. You want, you want Butler and Kaminga, you want Green and Kaminga, you want Moody, you got, you want pods, you want four first like, but man, like, it does.
- [78:38]
A
It puts them in the odd position. Golden State of, of arguing for the value of their future first round picks by admitting that they could Be bad in five years, they go to Milwaukee. Hey, our picks could be valuable because if you looked at the age of our roster, man, we might suck. Bet against us. Give us Giannis. It reminds me of like when the hard end of Cleveland stuff started happening last night. I saw this a little bit on social media and I remember thinking it at the time he got traded to the Clippers and reading it at the time he got traded to the Clippers. Harden gets put on a superior perimeter player, ball handlers team. Donovan Mitchell, in this case, Kawhi Leonard in the Clippers case. And you start to talk yourself into very bizarre and like mind bending contradictory things. Like, well, you know, Harden. This could work because, yeah, Harden's not going to be the guy who wins the big game for you, but he can help get you there because of his regular season durability. And then if you can have another guy who can pick up the slack when Harden shits the bed in a big game, like that's an ideal thing. And you start to be like, wait, are his weaknesses almost being spun into like puzzle piece fitting strengths? Because Kawhi's here and Dynavit Mitchell. Where's my brain going with this? Anyway, yeah, the warriors, it is, it is the cleanest. It's essentially four picks. Cause it's top 20 with the other one, right? So it's like basically four first round picks. That's a lot of picks. They have swaps. They can give us some swaps too.
- [80:17]
B
I mean, Milwaukee's already swapped out their stuff, so you're going to swap it on swaps, right?
- [80:21]
A
I mean, and Draymond. Is Draymond in place? So Anthony Slater, I think reported. I mean, Draymond has to be in play. If you're. Can you keep Butler and getting big guy like this, Draymond's gotta be in play.
- [80:31]
B
He has to be. I mean, I think if I was Golden State, I would. Because it's. If you have Draymond and Kaminga, that gets you to 51. And then you're adding. I would love to try to get something else back with Giannis, right? Like, can I get Turner's. Turner's a big number, man, you know, some porter.
- [80:49]
A
That's what never made sense about. Now I'm going, It's punchy. It's 10 o' clock now, Easter time. I'm getting punchy. The Dame, stretch, wave and stretch thing.
- [80:58]
B
I understand why, right? Like there's two parts. There's two parts to this. I understand the why part. Because he was Out. And really, that was their, like, last, like, card in the. On, you know, like, last card they had. Okay, so I understand why I didn't understand if you're gonna. That the. The who. Right? Like, the who they were using it on, and basically using it all on.
- [81:23]
A
One person, like, similar to. On a much less damaging scale. The opening the door to thinking about trading Luca, totally explicable in the eyes of at least some executives around the league. From the Mavericks perspective, dealing him for one specific player who's older and more injury, your opponent, and not opening it up to the entire league. Not explicable. Yeah. Miles Turner just isn't that good. Like, he's fine. He's just fine. He's not changing your life as a player. He's better than, like, what Indiana has left over. He's fine. He's a league average starting center who theoretically fits with Giannis. It's not worth all of that, by the way, on the Warriors, I think, like, should we just start asking the question, like, is Steve Kerr going to coach the warriors next year?
- [82:12]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, that's. Listen, that's as Is. You are. You've got one year left on three guys next year.
- [82:21]
A
Maybe Giannis would reinvigorate all that stuff. But, I mean, he. He's. Does not have a contract. He's. No extension has been been given, and we're 50 games into the season and Draymond might go, and who the hell knows? Well, we got 40. We got. How about, I don't know, 41, 40 more hours, something like that? It's all quiet right now at 10 o', clock, but you just. You can't go to sleep now, Bobby can't go to sleep.
- [82:46]
B
You know, the beauty of being out west right now is that's probably one of the perks. As far as, you know, when everyone goes to sleep, you're still up at midnight, man.
- [82:56]
A
Pacific time is unbelievable.
- [82:58]
B
It is.
- [82:58]
A
I was out. I was out there last week. It's underrated. I could be done watching games at 8 o'.
- [83:06]
B
Clock.
- [83:07]
A
I was out at the hotel outdoor pool, cafe, making calls and sending texts, and it's 5 degrees and there's a fucking foot of snow on the ground where I live. Pacific time is where it's at, man. You can go have dinner now.
- [83:21]
B
Yeah. I miss you.
- [83:23]
A
Seven o'.
- [83:23]
B
Clock. I'm gonna go get some pizza.
- [83:25]
A
I miss you. Bobby Marks. It's wonderful to see you. And I'm telling you right now, when the season gets rolling. You're coming on Mets corner.
- [83:32]
B
That's right. Expecting big things this year.
- [83:35]
A
It's a much more pleasant place than jets corner, I would imagine.
- [83:38]
B
Oh, geez. Watching my former first round pick playing the super bowl on Sunday.
- [83:45]
A
Seahawks, right?
- [83:45]
B
Tim Darnold is the legend.
- [83:49]
A
Is the world cheering for the Seahawks? Does everyone still hate the Patriots?
- [83:52]
B
We got a Marist guy on Seattle there, Zach, our kicker. Their kicker, Jason Myers, Marist College. About that.
- [83:59]
A
Well, maybe it'll all come down to him. Bobby Marks. You're going to be, I assume on ESPN all day, every day for the next 48 hours.
- [84:06]
B
You don't see me call the police.
- [84:08]
A
Yes, Bobby Marks. Thank you, sir.
- [84:11]
B
Thank you, buddy.
- [84:14]
A
All right. Woo. What a day. Great NBA day. So much stuff going on. And there'll be more. We got a couple more days before the trade deadline. We'll be back after the trade deadline for yet another episode of the Zach Lowe Show. Thank you tonight to Bobby Marks, the great Bobby Marks. Thanks to Mike, Jonathan and Billy on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you soon. Stay tuned. 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky, Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChattinConnecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 10247 supportive Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
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Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms. Hello, Are you looking for occasionally insightful but always thrillingly entertaining analysis from the world's leading Soccer Brackets Football Podcast well, look no further. I'm Matt Max Rushton, the host of the Guardian Football Weekly podcast. Join me every week as we pick over the latest action and news from the beautiful game, from the big wins to the crises at Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, West Ham manager meltdowns to minor mishaps. And with a guaranteed agenda against your club. If it happens in soccer, we've got it covered. Listen on Spotify now and watch the full episodes over on YouTube.