A (3:03)

The most wonderful time of the year. When I was a teacher my many, many moons ago, my good buddy Tim and I used to sing that song during midterm and final exam week because it was our way of taunting the students. We don't have to actually teach you. You just have to sit in our class and shut up and take tests. And for us, that was the most wonderful time.

B (3:25)

Well, it is finals week here at the University of Texas too. So shout out to all those undergrads and grad students getting ready for finals. By the way, one thing before we get started. Blake Griffin had no business attacking our man on television last night with your led shirt or whatever he was accusing you of. Just want to say that I have your back. Zach Lowe.

A (3:46)

It's a nice shirt. Actually, people thought it was a cheap shirt. TJ Maxx was thrown at me in some of the comments that. I get it at T.J. maxx. No, let me tell you this, T.J. maxx. I won't buy anything from you. Okay? So. And I didn't get it from Kohl's. It's a nice shirt. I think it's a Paul Stewart shirt. I can't remember. So I want to hear any of this. Okay? Lakers rockets. Who? Mr. Goldsberry. Austin Reaves came back. Yeah, and the Lakers still look like a older, slower team. Leaking a little oil on offense, overly dependent on a 41 year old Uber superstar. And there was a moment when the rockets were up five with 38 seconds to go. And they had the ball. And Amen Thompson missed the jumper and Tar Eason got the offensive rebound. And just, you know, we're. We're two games away now from the. The one of the most horrific collapses you will ever see a team have. One crazy mistake after another. All Tar Eason's got to do, bring the ball down, kick it out, get fouled, do anything but put up an instantaneous contested layup that misses and gives the Lakers life and they go down and I think LeBron took a three and I'm like this is going to go in. The Rockets are going to choke again. He missed. Someone else missed a three. Then there was anyway the Rockets won. But in that moment I was like, oh my God, now this is where you want to be. Someone is going to do it sometime. It is going to happen. The Celtics, coached by IME no, was coached by Joe Missoula. I guess not. IMDOCA in 2023 almost did it against Miami. It's now three two. The Rockets are going home for game six. Is this going to happen? Kirk, what do we think?

B (5:27)

I give it a 30% chance. I think we're going to look back at this series and say, oh man, game three was the inflection point because I still feel like the Rockets are probably the better team in the series. I think they've had an awful game three loss. They had a couple of just stinkers in LA to start the series. Just as a probability guy, I don't think it will happen, but I do think a 30 to 35% chance of it happening is crazy to think about. And I think they look like the better team over these last two or three games depending on your take of game three. Zach, I thought they were really found something with the vibe since Kevin's gone out and that's what I wanted to ask you about. It feels like this young core, like the heart of the Rockets core without Fred Van Fleet now without Stephen Adams of course without Kevin Durant has found some chemistry and some energy. They're making mistakes. Of course Reed shepherd made the one in game three. Tari made it last night. But yeah, it feels like they're a better team going into these last two games, don't you think?

A (6:33)

It does feel like their youth and athleticism is starting to wear on the Lakers a little bit. Notably they discovered in the last game and continued it into this game that they are allowed to actually hunt Luke Kennard on defense and make him defense and Amen Thompson is hunting him. Reed shepherd is hunting him a little bit actually like Reed shepherd like first of all just a really fun read. Shepherd bounce back the last couple of games he had all he finished the game. He almost ice the game. It would without the tar eason mistake and some other stuff with what I call a kawhi when it's the same person gets bucket steel bucket on a run out dunk. That's a kawhi when one guy just takes over the whole game for like 45 seconds on both ends of the floor and he's like hunting canard. He hunted Rui Hachimura at one point and just blew by him. And I think created Atari Easton 3 like, I think they've like Reed shepherd can cook some of these Lakers defenders one on one and they kind of leaned into that. Reeves is another guy they can go after now. Obviously Reeves helps the Lakers offense quite a lot. We saw some nice Reaves LeBron two man games as a way for them to hunt Reed shepherd. But I do think the Rockets athleticism and youth is starting to wear them down. And look, this has been like a really bad offensive series for the lakers. They're averaging 107 points per 100 possessions. That would have been just about last in the regular season, their last in three point rate, their last in turnover rate. Like this is a team that's kind of leaking oil right now. And look the Rockets like no great shakes. It's ugly. Every single possession for the they ran. There was one possession last night where Shangun had the ball at the left elbow extended and the Rockets ran a split action with Reed shepherd and Jabari Smith Jr. Screening for each other. And because Reed shepherd is like kind of a red alert shooter, the Lakers got a little freaked out. Two people chased him, Jabari Smith cut into the lane for an easy little short jumper and I was like oh wow. They just ran real offense like the Rockets just ran an actual play. But like I, I do think the Lakers are in some danger here of being the first team ever to blow a 30 lead somewhere in Los Angeles. Bill Simmons just perked up a little bit at that sentence. But here's the thing. It's almost hard to get I think probably both of our brains around the idea of this young Rockets team who blew game three in historically bad fashion is prone to some mistakes. Obviously of youth is not exactly like teaming with depth. With all these injuries and shams reported today, Durant is going to miss game six is going to actually win two more high pressure games against LeBron and Reaves and the Lakers. Like it just feels like LeBron is going to think out a way to manufacture like a 98, 94 win in one of these games.

B (9:23)

Yeah, that's where I land too. I think Reeves, it was shaken off some dust last night. I mean shooting, I was a 4 of 16 or something from the floor. You know, that's, that's kind of what you expect for a player coming back and and dropped into the playoffs against a pretty aggressive perimeter defense full of young guys. He's not going to do that again in game six or if there's a game seven. So I, I think their offense we can expect more. I think the Lakers are 30 when they score a hundred points. Talk about a dumb guy stat. And 0 and 2 when they don't.

A (9:53)

Lawler's. Lawler's Law, baby.

B (9:55)

Yeah that. There you go. Lawler's Law. So but here's the, here's the trivia question. I think you'll get this right but do you know who the Lakers. When I talked to you about the series before it started we both picked the Rockets I think and one of my real points was who do you think the Lakers second best player is going into the series without Austin Rees and Luka Doncic. You said Rui Hatchimura. Do you know who the second leading scorer in this series is for the Los Angeles Lakers right now after Kennard

A (10:22)

coming back to earth in the last two games and again I think wearing down after Hachimura offense sort of fault like he, it felt like he had made every jump shot through four games. He did not do that last night. I'm going to guess it's dominating Marcus Smart. Marcus Smart was my second guess and

B (10:39)

his usage has surged. One of the things I like to look at in the first round of the playoffs is whose usage rates are soaring relative to the regular season and whose are diminishing. Spoiler. I was looking at that in the context of Cade Cunningham earlier today but. But yeah Marcus Smart is usage has surged and that's not a great sign. If you told me that this team was going to depend on Marcus Smart and Rui Hatchamura and Luke Canard. That doesn't sound like a second round playoff team to me but credit to them they still have a chance to do it. Luke Canard was absolutely invisible last night but I think they have a good chance to win one of these next two games.

A (11:16)

Yeah. Are the Thunder. Are the Thunder the first playoff team ever to go to Cancun between playoff rounds and just, and just relax like what are they doing right now watching this rock fight between now obviously the reason the leak the Lakers are leaking oil on offense is because one of the three to four best offensive players in the world is injured and he's the sun and the stars and everything that revolves around him and the Lakers offense and so and and by the way this was like it's actually kind of a tribute to the Lakers supporting players to JJ Redick's coaching job, to Pelinka stealing Luke Kennard and saving his assets for another day. But in saving his assets for another day, for the most part, it was indicated to us that what we already knew was this wasn't supposed to be like the year for the Lakers. This was the year where they recalibrated around Luca after a seismic, unexpected trade fell into their laps. Thanks, Nico. And then spent the off season this offseason coming up really recalibrating around Luka. Now Luka's gone. Reeves has been gone for four of the five games. Durant's been gone for four of the five games. It's just such a bizarro series. But the one thing I will say is, like, you can't. I don't, I don't think it's quite fair to the Lakers to be like, well, this should be three two Rockets had they not blown game three. Because how does, how does game four unfold if it's two one Lakers instead of three zero Lakers? That felt like a kind of a letdown, like, yeah, we've kind of got this in the bad game for the Lakers, but they don't have this in the bag anymore. I mean, I think Houston could actually do this. I just, it just feels like imagine if, if of all teams, of all the, like, accolades and history and records and everything that LeBron already has, that he becomes the best player, the best healthy player on it, the first team ever to blow a 30 lead.

B (13:11)

It's just going to be log off from the.

A (13:14)

Jordan never blew a 30 lead.

B (13:16)

That's right, dude.

A (13:17)

I. Yeah, Andre Jordan never blew a 30 lead.

B (13:21)

Oh, my God.

A (13:22)

Eddie Jordan never blew a 30 lead. Oh, Michael Jordan, who played for Penn, never blew a 30 lead. I don't 90s Ivy League basketball.

B (13:33)

I don't want to live in a world where I have to endure that. So I guess I'm rooting for the Lakers. But I agree, if, if Houston, whose young core looks really good right now and like I said, found a vibe, find some energy, find some velocity and force on both ends, win game six, there's going to be a lot of pressure on some pretty fragile pieces of this Lakers rotation to perform really well in a Game 7, including eight and Kennard, who was just invisible last night and all the players we mentioned. Ultimately, I think Reeves and LeBron are going to be enough to steal one of these last two games. But yeah, it is a dicey situation for legacy talk on the A block of first take. If this happens,

A (14:18)

Luke cornett never blew a 30 lead. I don't know why I just saw Luke Cornet. Probably because Luke. You said Luke Canard, by the way. You know who's. I just want to shout out you. We just made a first take joke. I think Jay Billis has been like unbelievable on these games for espn. He, he sees all the nuances right away. Like, oh, they switched this matchup. Here's why they ran this set at this guy. Here's why, here's the mistake that just happened on that play. And he's super succinct about it. He's like a huge net plus to the NBA broadcasting world. Couple other things. By the way, on the Eason thing, I think I woke up my wife and my daughter. I let out some sort of guttural yelp when he put that layup back up from my office that reverberated around the house. And then my next thought was, I don't know if you follow Tari Eason's mom on Twitter. Absolutely. Absolutely delightful follow. I was like, what is Tar Eason's mom going to do if they blow this game because of his layup?

B (15:21)

Tari's mom is not one on my, my Twitter follow. Make sure to change that today. But maybe it was a touching tribute to Marcus Smart who was playing just with a boneheaded late game shot choice. You know, Marcus has, has made a few of those in his Boston days. But yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like there's a chance that Marcus Smart has the ball with 2.8 seconds left in Game 6. And the Lakers are gonna need somebody to make a play. So I am not, I am not saying the Lakers have got this thing by any means. I would just, if I had to pick them, Zach, I would pick them. Obviously they have two chances to do it.

A (15:59)

Yeah, if I had to pick, I'd pick. It's just, it's hard to imagine it happening, but very well could happen, by the way. Also, like, I've been a big Tar Eason fan. I think this season has been wildly up and down for him. I'm very interested to see what Houston's plan for his long term. He's a free agent this summer. But the, the underrated element. Maybe not underrated, but the, the least discussed element of the game three collapse. You have the Jabari throwaway. You have the Reed getting picked. You have LeBron making that shot. You have the three shot foul against Jayshawn Tate. Ime said after the game and then we forgot what play we were running at the end of regulation. And I'm pretty sure if you watch the play that's Ontari Eason because it's supposed to be a Shengoon Eason pick and roll and Eason takes forever to come up from the corner to set the screen and people are like yelling at him to like get moving. Come on. Anyway, a couple other notes from this game. I didn't. I don't know if you noticed this. I I understand the Lakers are trying to junk it up on defense with lots of different schemes and lots of randomness and like half zones and unpredictability. There were like four or five possessions in that game. Were they like randomly hard doubled or wildly overhelped on Shen post ups like 20ft from the rim even like one he had RUI on him. One he had Deandre Ayton on him like there wasn't even a switch. And again, I understand they're probably trying to generate turnovers, just junk it up, be random. But they gave up like two dunks at the rim. An open read. Shepherd three. I'm like why are you. I just don't think I, I thought the risk outweighed the reward of that by a lot.

B (17:32)

Yeah, a lot of double teams, right. It feels like Houston figured it out and they kept throwing them at him. But again like JJ has, has found some defensive competence in a group that I had very low expectations for. So keep chunking it up JJ and

A (17:46)

shout out to Jabari Smith Junior's had a pretty solid series especially from three. And talk about oxygen for a team that needs it. Dorian Finney Smith hits two threes. Amen Thompson hits two threes. Amen Thompson hits two threes. Like stop the presses. And Aaron Holiday just like a three and a runner just again oxygen. You need oxygen from those guys. And the last thing I'll say is I do wonder if if Luke Canard is being hunted again. If the Lakers start blitzing a little bit more and like daring the Rockets to pass the ball around to all their non shooters to see to see what happens. But the Lakers are in trouble. This is a real thing and someone sometime is going to actually do this and this is a pretty even injury riddled matchup you would ideally like like it seems more likely that the home team in game seven that like the higher seed like with the Celtics three years ago would be the team to do it.

B (18:38)

But yeah, you made the joke about OKC being in Cancun between the series what if LeBron James retired after game 6? If they lose game 6 so he doesn't have to play game 7 so he wouldn't be on the court for the first 30 comeback?

A (18:54)

Wow. I was confused for a second. I was like, game six, what's happening after game six? That's too much for me to handle. Okay, let's do very quickly tonight's three games. We have three. What do we have? Three game sixes tonight. All game sixes.

B (19:04)

Yes.

A (19:06)

And by the time this goes up, we'll be about six hours from tip. Seven hours from tip. Boston, Philly, game six. One thing Kirk Goldsberry is looking for is the Celtics try to close out a series that I just kind of assumed they would close out and beat or no embiId in game five. And just the bigger storyline here and in the Hawks Knicks game is like, are the Magic just going to win the East? Like just who is going to win the East? Because Detroit, the number one seed, is on the brink. The number two seed, the Celtics really like kind of struggled to win game three in Philly and then couldn't close them out in game five. Cleveland, we'll talk about. They're up three two by the, by the skin of their teeth. And then, and then, you know, this. What missing ones? Anyway, everyone's on the break, but tell me one thing you're looking at is the Celtics try to close this out.

B (19:56)

Well, I think in the last game, Joel Embiid was marvelous and Maxi was also very good. And so the simple thing is who's the MVP of Game 6, and that's the team that's probably going to win. Can Jason Tatum do it? He's played really well but didn't play great. And then Jaylen Brown sort of diminished where we, we expected him to be in this series. So I'm looking for who's going to be the best player in the game, which is again sort of a first takeaway to look at this. You'll probably have some better analysis. But dude, if Embiid's going to play like this and Paul George's defense, by the way, is very underrated. Under discussed like the, you talk to the Sixers coaches, they were like, yeah, Paul George, don't make fun of him. This guy still brings 100 mile an hour fastball on defense. He's one of the smarter, more gifted wing defenders in the league still, if he's able to take away one of those two big threats for Boston when he's in the game. And Embiid And Maxi are going to do this. They had a chance. But I'm laser focused on Joel Embiid. I don't know if he can do this two games in a row with where his body's at. And if he can't, the Boston Celtics are going to win. And then I would put them as the favorite in the ec.

A (21:02)

Well, he almost couldn't do it one game in a row after leaving the game and coming back with injury. But that second half, you know, the first half was like, okay. I mean, Joel Embiid's been injured a lot this year. He's feeling it out. He doesn't look so confident in his body. He's not like overpowering Luca Garza. And then in the second half, he just put Nikola Vuchevic in the basket four different times. And then you could see him understanding that, okay, I've got it. And you could see Vucovic understanding, oh shit, he's got it. And when you could really see that was when Joel Embiid would face up. He started driving much harder at Vuchevic, like, I'm coming at you with force. And then Vucovic would backpedal like, oh my God, I don't want. And he would hit the brakes real hard and hit an easy little 14 foot jumper. But it was easy because he started going at him full speed with force. And you mentioned Paul George. I think he played 43 minutes in that game, had a bunch of threes. It was only like 18 points or 16 points or something. But that was like this was the vision of what this team was supposed to be. Paul George as Elite 3&D third option, Maxi and Embiid, kind of basic but effective offense, low turnovers. And the other thing is they played the lineup of Maxi, Edgecomb, Grimes, George Embiid. That lineup was plus 16 in 15 minutes. It only played 45 minutes the entire regular season. And it's a lineup I've been waiting to see more of. So we'll see how it goes. And on the Celtics, like, you know, I had a front office person from another team asking me like, why do the Celtics suddenly look a little bit more vulnerable than we thought they were going into the playoffs? And I think it's A, Derrick White jump shot is just completely vanished. And B, their centers under playoff scrutiny are not who we thought they were before the season, but not quite this like rock solid three headed monster that they looked like they might be going into the playoffs. And Katus foul trouble has been a part of that. So anyway, that's a fun game.

B (23:09)

One more point on that's the exact point I had on my notes. So I had the Celtics coming out of the east and they gave up Luke Cornett. Obviously they lost Al Horford and Porzingis. The whole front court from title team is gone with the exception of Tatum and I think that's right Zach. I think Joel Embiid having a big game has a little bit to do with, you know, incompetent play in the front court for a team that wants to come out of the East. So that's if I, if you gave me a second thing to look at, it would be like, all right, who's going to is Keita going to be the guy? Because that would be the guy if I had to pick. But the foul trouble you mentioned is a big deal. I've never been a big vuch guy especially on on the defensive end of the court. And then Garza is what he is. So I think the Celtics have a clear weakness now and going into a series potentially against the Knicks that could be relevant again. So I think that's where I watched this Game six is is the Embiid versus Celtics front court matchup.

A (24:11)

One quick thing you are looking for in Knicks Hawks which is a very interesting chess match of particularly the Hawks juggling the rotations and juggling the matchups rather just even between games within games with Dyson. Daniels starts on Cat, then he moves to Brunson. Oh, he's back on Cat. We can't decide where to put who. What are you looking for in this game?

B (24:30)

You know, I think Kat's been really impressive and I think one of the more impressive players in the Eastern Conference playoffs. I want him to continue to do that and put the series away. And then I think the Knicks have asserted themselves as as with like you said with Detroit flailing with Cleveland not exactly running away with this series. I think the Towns, Brunson that depth of the Knicks. But if Towns is going to play like this, I think the Knicks have a real strong voice going into round two.

A (25:00)

I texted someone close to Towns after that game five and I said that might be the best sub 20 point game cat has ever played in his life. He was awesome. He was awesome on both ends of the floor. He blocked them a column three on a pick and roll. They put him on Jalen Johnson for a little bit when they went with Town's Mitchell Robinson double big which Mike Brown has said he doesn't really like in this series. I kind of like it fine for them frankly, because Mitchell Robinson is just a really productive player and he snuffed out Jalen Johnson. Like I just thought he was awesome. The one thing I will look for is this. The Knicks defense has been sensational in this series. I think their three wins have been among the half dozen best single game defensive performances they've had all season. They were awesome in game five. The one thing that I thought was interesting was particularly in the second half of the game to get Jalen Johnson going. The Hawks ran way even more than usual. Inverted Jalen Johnson, Dyson Daniels pick and rolls with Jalen Johnson as the ball handler. And the Knicks have been pretty disciplined in trying to go under anything with Jalen Johnson any. And obviously with Dyson Daniels and just sort of making a shell and for some reason they decided we're actually going to amp this up and blitz a little bit or go over these screens and they started opening up like trapping Jalen Johnson. Dyson Daniels open on the roll. Dyson Daniels kicks it out for threes. And I'm watching like why are they. This doesn't make any sense to me. Atlanta's getting good threes out of this and I just wondered watching it if like. All right, if, if we're going to play defense at like an absolute frenzied, super intense level and this is the price for it that we kind of open up this a little bit with our frenzy and our intensity. That's a price that we're willing to pay for just the overall vibe and mood of our defense. But that's one thing I'm watching. I pick Knicks in six, so I guess I have to pick the Knicks to win this game. Their wins have obviously been more convincing than the Hawks to one point win. So we'll see. All right, let's take a break and we'll. I already covered Wolves Nuggets on my last episode. There's been a three day break between game or two day break between games. Do you have any thoughts you want to get on that before we take a break?

B (27:09)

I mean can Nicole Jokic or Jamal Murray make a three point shot? That would be my quick hitter. I mean if you look at who's had the biggest jump shooting drop off in these playoffs from the regular season, those guys are at the very top of the list, particularly Nicole Jokic. So yeah, I'm watching that Nicole Yokich shooting line.

A (27:27)

That series just makes me sad. There's too many injuries. It'll be interesting to see who guts through it and if they can put up a fight against San Antonio, who's not in Cancun, I don't think, but they're just relaxing a little bit. All right, let's take a break and we'll get to the CAVS Surviving Game 5 at home. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by FanDuel. NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily because every day during the playoffs, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. We're talking special drops you won't want to miss, from profit boosts to bonus bets and more. And FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. Check for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs and don't miss your shot to get a little extra out of the action. Head to FanDuel.com low to get started 21 or over in select states or 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in Required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever get hit with a plan out of nowhere and need something asap? Maybe it's an impromptu basketball game, A last minute trip with the crew, Spontaneous date. That's when prime same day delivery comes in. Get whatever you need delivered to you fast so you can say yes to the moment. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms apply all right, Kurt Goldsberry, tell the truth. Were you writing the Cavs obituary in your head at points in the second and third quarters of that game last night at home against Toronto when James Harden was throwing the ball all over the place? When Evan Mobley and Jared Allen were like toying with the idea of maybe exploiting mismatches in the post and when the Raptors were just playing, when Jacobe Walter had an out of body experience and made a million threes and when the Raptors I thought were just playing with more force and confidence than the Cavs were, were you starting to be like, do I need to. Do I need to dial up some fake Donovan and Mitchell trades right now?

B (29:40)

Yes, I did not expect Evan Mobley's threes to find the bottom of the net when they did so shout out to him. But I think those threes will go down as some of the biggest shots of their season. Cause I thought though that those two, two fourth quarter threes, I think three,

A (29:57)

three for three for the game.

B (29:59)

Yeah. And so credit to him. That's something he's been working on for years. Kenny Atkinson really pushed him when he got that job to develop. That came up handy in the biggest moment of the season. But yeah, dude, it feels like last year, right, Zach? It feels like this is the team that let us down last year. And here they go again. Instead of Indiana, it's Toronto who doesn't really have a healthy team right now. You mentioned the injuries to Scotty and Brandon earlier, so yeah, I was, I was starting to get very concerned. Particularly when you layer in the. James Harden isn't exactly throwing a hundred miles an hour right now and turning the ball over. Donovan Mitchell hasn't really shown up at the level I would have expected and they're not out of this. What are your thoughts?

A (30:43)

No, they're definitely not out of it. And they're a Dennis Schroeder explosion from maybe facing Cat like we're at CavsCon 2 right now. Even though they're up 3 2. We would have been. The CavsCon scale would have been broken had they lost that game. They might have been a Dennis Schroeder third quarter explosion where he just blew by a couple guys, hit a couple of jumpers including a three when they ducked screens against him. And this is what Dennis Schroeder does. He has like one of these playoff games every series we're like oh yeah, Team Germany. Dennis showed up and they needed every bit of it. Mitchell has been just pretty good by his standards. Okay, Harden had an efficient game but the turnovers were just absolutely atrocious in the first half and they were the worst kinds like pick six pass picks. He got picked and it became a pick six, like picked his dribble got picked.

B (31:28)

Yeah.

A (31:28)

And defensively he's obviously like mostly a no show. So it was a worrisome performance. And look like Brandon Ingram played 11 minutes and he's been pretty bad for the most part in the series. But he is just a needed release valve for them, particularly when Scotty Barnes sits and Scotty Barnes is dealing with now a thigh bruise I think it was and was just not imposing his will on the game offensively from the six minute mark of the third quarter through the rest of the game. And but the minutes when Scotty Barnes sits, if there's no Brandon Ingram like those are pretty rough minutes. And by the way, Emmanuel Quickley hasn't played the entire series and yes, that probably helps Toronto's defense a little bit because more Jamal Shed is good for their defense and that guy is just a freaking demon. But you start to think about things like well I would really like to get Scotty Barnes matched up against Donovan Mitchell or James Harden or Sam Merrill or somebody that he can really beat the crap out of in the post. Why is that not happening more? And one of the reasons it's not happening more is because when they run things like a Shed Scotty Barnes pick and roll which I like and, and they got a couple of good things out of it by involving a small guard with Scotty Barnes. The Cavs just aren't worried about Jamal Shed. They're not going to switch. They're not going to pan it. Just going to let him drive and do stuff in a way that they would not with quickly. This was a pretty uninspiring win honestly for the Cavs. I thought obviously they've figured out some things about their rotation. They started streuss they've. They've concluded that Merrill is just a must have pretty big minutes player because of his gravity and his shooting. I didn't really get or expect the Thomas Bryant cameo that occurred in the second quarter of the game and they just Mobley Allen together -11 in 10 minutes last night and they've just. It's just that that that duo is just not working in this series.

B (33:25)

And that's what when we were on this like I expect I said Jared Allen was the big the big X factor for Cleveland. He's not going to lead them in scoring but the ability of that too big lineup which had some really exciting metrics coming into the playoffs to to make somebody feel Cleveland on defense finally just like you said, I think they're 12th out of 16 teams on defense against a wounded Toronto team that is not a good offense even when they're healthy. And you mentioned Shed playing key point guard minutes starting actions. That's not even quickly out there. So I think it's fair to be disappointed in this team. Cleveland up 32 I go so far as to say I expect Toronto to win game six at home and really put the pressure on James Harden and this Cavs team in game seven which God all bets are off if that happens.

A (34:18)

If we get a Cavs Raptors game seven in Cleveland. James Harden's involved now it's only the first round so the pressure is not quite at at Harden cave in levels yet but it would be caps Con one must watch. I don't know what to expect because the injuries just in the second half reached a critical threshold for the Raptors where if Scotty Barnes, who has been, I mean anyone who wasn't paying much attention to the Raptors in the regular season, has got to come out of this with an understanding of how, how fucking good that guy is and how hard he plays on both ends of the floor. He's a little bit, you know, off offensively. It's not always pretty. The jumper, like the three comes and go, mostly goes. But he made, he made some mid rangers last night when they, when they conceded him and he's just plays with such power on both ends of the floor. His passing was great. His passing was actually so good that he hit Jakob Hurtl in the face once when Jakob Hurdle wasn't expecting the ball. The one thing I will say, and I talked about this in the lead up to game five, was I didn't understand why the Cavs were not going at Purdle more in the pick and roll. Just like if you have a traditional lumbering center on the floor who is not going to switch, like CMB is going to switch. Just run your normal stuff and see what happens. And in the third quarter they had a stretch where they put Harden in the pick and roll. They, they would have Purdle's guy. It was Allen a couple times. It was Mobley a couple times. Set a screen for Harden at almost half court, like make Pearl defend in space. And they just picked them apart. And I'm like, where has this been the whole series? And it also made me think, I mean, CMB played 26 minutes and was minus seven. Purdle played 21 minutes, it was plus six. So maybe I'm off base, but particularly in the second half and down the stretch I was like, I kind of just want more CMB in this game and less Pearl because the more pearls in there, the more you're giving them an easy lever to pull on offense. And they finally kind of pulled it a little bit.

B (36:16)

Yeah, that's interesting. I keep waiting for Donovan Mitchell to have those kinds of attacking moments where he is act like you, you called it out earlier. Dennis Schroeder shouldn't be the guy I think of when I think about, hey, which of these Cavs guards is attacking the rim most frequently. But yeah, Schroeder was leaving it all on the floor last night, collapsing into the stanchion over and over again. That's what I expect from Donovan Mitchell, especially if they get those pearl moments. Now Jakob deserves a lot of Credit. He's one of the more efficient rim protectors when his feet are in good position in the NBA. So it's not exactly like an easy guy to pick on at the rim. But yeah, I guess I'm really focused on Donovan Mitchell, man, because like you said at the beginning of this, like, sort of teasing about the trade machine, this is not a great start to the playoffs for this team. It hasn't been a good year. I do expect Toronto to find a way to win game six and like, again, like the, like the Lakers, the brink of disaster awaits if, if the wrong team wins game six. And that's going to be a lot of pressure on that team.

A (37:21)

Yeah. Donovan Mitchell, 23 a game on, 44% shooting, 39% from threes, only two and a 2.8 free throws a game. And I think that reflects that. The paint is just. It's difficult for Cleveland's guards to get into the paint because of how adept Toronto is with its huge and rangy and fast defenders that they just shut windows really fast. They can rotate and recover and passes you think are there are not there to the point that I think they've been in Cleveland's heads a little bit. There was a play in game in game four where Mobley caught the ball on the short roll at the foul line and Jared Allen was like wide open under the basket. Just textbook big to big pass available on the pick and roll and Mowgli froze, it didn't make the pass and I think he ended up kicking it out to somebody who missed the three or something. But it was, it struck me as like Toronto has kind of sapped a little bit of Cleveland's confidence in its ball movement because of how fast they move on defense. So, you know, look, I, I was relieved to see that Jared Allen had a couple duck in baskets against RJ Barrett and one against Jacoby Walter, like, yeah, you've got to be able to exploit that. I was relieved that Evan Mobley hit a couple jump shots and faced up a few times against Jacobl and got buckets. Like they needed more from the bigs and they got a little more. I just. Can I shout out who do you think the leading scorer for the Raptors is in this series?

B (38:43)

Oh, it's not Scotty.

A (38:45)

It's not Scotty.

B (38:48)

No, man. I guess we both missed our trivia questions today. It's a sad day on the Zach Lowe show.

A (38:53)

I got revenge. Shout out. Shout out. RJ Barrett.

B (38:57)

Oh, that's right. He's awesome.

A (38:59)

24 a game 53% shooting, 46% on threes. You know the Raptors made that an OBI trade for partly for financial reasons and partly to get Emmanuel quickly and RJ Barrett was kind of an afterthought, kind of the price of getting Emanuel quickly. And he's not a sexy player. Three point shot comes and goes. Defensively he's just eh and Harden and Mitchell have been hunting him a lot in the series and that's really the only offense that the Cleveland guards have consistently had is hunting Barrett and Ingram and drawing double teams or shooting ISO threes or whatever. But he's a pretty rock solid all around player. He does everything pretty well on offense, decent secondary creator. He's averaging four dimes a game in this series and his bully ball layups have been just like again oxygen for an offense that can wheeze sometimes. And he had that one huge one over Sam Merrill at the end of game four with like 40 seconds left to pull him within one. I do think, I do wonder if Let me test out this theory for you. I remember years and years ago there was a Toronto Indiana first round series where Toronto was the higher seed and had a ton of expectations in Indiana with your boy George Hill and Paul George took them to seven in a really ugly series. And I remember thinking as, as disappointing as this is for Toronto, it was like is Dwayne Casey going to get fired level of disappointing. I wonder if the next series will feel easier for them because Indiana just had a certain physicality and length that was problematic for them. And I just I wonder if, if Cleveland is able to win this series as as rickety as they feel right now. If whether it's Detroit or Orlando, a version of that happens with the Cavs where suddenly like and those are big teams, particularly Orlando, who we're going to talk about. We'll see if Ron's is healthy or not or and Detroit is obviously a big physical team, although not quite so much when they have like Duncan Robinson and Lavert on the floor. I do wonder if there's a world in which we all get a little too low on Cleveland and then they look a little looser and a little freer in the next round, which is a huge F by the way.

B (41:17)

It's still an if you did a good job saying hey, this is sort of the casual fans introduction to Scotty Barnes and I agree with that. But it's also the casual fans introduction to one of the better defenses in the Eastern Conference. And look, Toronto without quickley you sort of alluded to this earlier. Very, very good defense. I think shed had one of the more impressive sort of nerdy defensive plays in this series where he, he sort of leapt at. I forget who's bringing up the ball to force that 8 second violation and a really dive in.

A (41:48)

Mitchell.

B (41:49)

Yeah, it's a really smart play. I've loved his defense since he was in college. R.J. barrett. I had this in my notes too. One of the more improved three point shooters in these playoffs just up there with OG Anunoby. They're both in the top three of like the big shooting spikes I've monitored. But yeah, I think Cleveland is turning it over at one of the highest rates in these playoffs. Cleveland is not getting rebounds even when they have Mobley and Jared Allen out there at the rate they would expect. We can put this all on Cleveland. But to your earlier point, let's not forget the Raptors are the ones out there playing with force, playing this kind of defense, getting those loose balls, getting those rebounds. So I think the future is bright in Toronto whether they get out of the series or not. I think they're going to be one of the teams that we look at next year is like oh this is a really good core they have. They play hard, they play great defense. But some of these markers we're seeing for Donovan Mitchell, James Harden and the two big lineup for Cleveland give some credit for the to the Raptors for playing this well, especially on defense. Zach.

A (42:54)

Well, it's going to be interesting to see who they even conclude is is part of their core. Right. Like Ingram has one year left, I'm sorry a year and a player option left after this. Grady Dick doesn't play anymore. RJ Barrett has just next year left and will be extension eligible and again he makes $29 million next year. So we'll see if there's anything to be done there. But you come out of this at least feeling like yeah, Scotty Barnes is going to be a legit, you know, he was I think borderline third team all NBA this year. Yeah, maybe he has another little level above that where he becomes like a borderline second team all NBA guy. I don't know if I see first team all NBA but, but he's going to be a very good player for a very long time and one of the best defense players in the league and CMB is awesome and that's that that's a home run draft pick and at the very least you feel pretty good about that. All right, let's go on to Detroit Orlando, who will face the winner of this Raptors Cav series? What a duel last night. Paolo Banchero, 45 points, 6 of 11 on threes, which is like a lunar eclipse level event for Paolo Banchero, three point shooting. But he brought it and he brought it in a big game. Maybe he's the real playoff P Kirk Goldsberry. Maybe. Maybe it's not Paul George. Maybe Paula. Ben Caro is a real playoff beat. We won't talk about 5 of 12 from the foul line. The magic 16 of 30 at the foul line in a potential closeout game. Holy smokes. I might be able to shoot 16 to 30 from the foul line in my drive.

B (44:28)

Not in.

A (44:29)

Not in an NBA game. And Cade Cunningham. Oh, you had 45 points. I'll put up 45 points too, on 13 of 23 shooting. Made all of his free throws. Also had six turnovers. Oh, my God. Kid, Kid. The dribble man. Just like, just a little. Be a little bit more careful around some of these guys. Detroit survives. It got a little dicey toward the end. Orlando got it to within three and then there was a sort of a random offensive rebound that went Detroit's way and they iced it. I don't. I ha. I don't really have a read on this one and how confident I feel in either team going into game six. Part of that is Franz Wagner missed game five with his calf injury acting up again, which put Jamal Kane into the starting five. And if anyone two months ago would have predicted that Jamal Kane, who was not even on the Orlando Magic for part of the season, would be starting for the Orlando Magic in a closeout playoff game. Good luck to you. And I think Stan hit this a lot on the broadcast. I do think that helped loosen up things for Cade in this game on offense. I don't know. What's your feel for this one? What are you looking at as we head back to the Magic arena for game six?

B (45:41)

Yeah, I have it on my board. Right over here on the Professor's whiteboard is where the hell is Jalen Duran? That is for me, the first, second and third biggest question going into game six. I have just some stunning stats about where Duran is relative to what we expected in the playoffs. He's just not shooting all year long. He was. He was only behind Giannis and Zion in layups and dunks per game. He almost got 10 attempts per game at the rim.

A (46:12)

I'm glad, like, yeah, a thing happened in my brain when you said his name, where I was just like, I Remember Zion? That guy's kind of fun. I. Yeah, you know, Zion.

B (46:24)

Okay.

A (46:24)

Anyway, just.

B (46:26)

But yeah. So Wendell Carter, like we just gave credit to the Raptors. Wendell Carter is playing sort of the, you know, this is less than celebrated version of basketball, is the defensive side of the court. And he's done very well shutting down Jalen Duran. And now he's getting five layups or 5.6 per game. His usage has plummeted. Tobias Harris and Cade Cunningham usage has spiked as a result of the Magic being able to really marginalize this all NBA force, that this pick and roll partner of Cade Cunningham and now Cade Kate has the highest usage in the NBA playoffs. That Lowe, he's up there at 36. That's not where he wants to be. He wants to be down near 30. He wants to drive it. So yes, he's turning it over in part because his pick and roll partner hasn't been there. Dude, he has. Those passes. Those, those outlets that were there all year are gone. And again, credit to Wendell Carter. But for me, if Detroit goes down here, there's going to be a lot of questions and a lot of fingers not pointed at Cade Cunningham, but pointed at the other partner in that pick and roll combo.

A (47:44)

I also think pointed at like Orlando came into the series and made one major change designed completely to take away Jalen Duran. And it was from tip off of game one. We're switching decade during pick and roll and we're going to go under the screen and switch so we make sure our switches are clean. And yeah, that's going to put Franz Wagner on Jalen Duran. We don't care. A, Franz is tough. B, we're taking away his roles to the rim and that's the way he wants to score. C, if you try and enter the ball to John Dern in the post, you're going to have at least one other guy who's a complete non shooter on the floor and we're going to help off that guy. Whether it's a Saar Thompson or Ron Holland who has disappeared or Javante Green who's not a non shooter, he's made his shots. He's just not going to be treated like a shooter shooter and we're just going to swarm him and knock the ball away. And the Pistons have not had enough of a consistent answer to that question. And they're not going to force any kind of readjustment from the Magic unless they find one. They've had little answers here and there. Like in game two, Jalen Duran started slipping screens really hard. He started running up to set a screen and then running out before even coming close to Cade Cunningham and being like, if you're going to switch, I'm going to get ahead of you and at the very least suck in your defense more than it's being sucked in right now. Cade. Stan hit him on this last night. He's like, cade's got to attack this Wendell Carter Jr. Switch. And sometimes he does. I don't think he does it enough, and I don't think he does it decisively enough. Like, just, just don't dance with it. If you get to switch, just put your head down and go. And then there was a possession last night where they just had Jalen Duran set two or three screens in a row for Cade Cunningham, lower and lower on the floor so he can walk an easier jump shot. So there are counters. Like, I thought Cade was better at hunting Desmond Bain last night. That's a matchup that he seems to like. We'll just do that more. Particularly if Duncan Robinson is being guarded by Desmond Bain. Lean into that. Have Duncan Robinson start flying around the floor. There's a lot of counters, but they've just, they've taken Duran's roles to the rim out of the series, and they've taken him kind of out of the series to it to almost a startling degree. And when he forces it, when he's like, I got to get involved, I got to do something, he looks frazzled and rushed and completely out of control in a way that he did not look in the regular season. And that's a lot of credit to Wendell Carter Jr. Who's a big, tough SOB who is in his head and really enjoying being in jail. Endurance head.

B (50:10)

Yeah. For a variety of reasons that we don't need to go into here. But Detroit is also not able to shoot threes. We knew this coming in, but they unsurprisingly ranked dead last in the playoffs in three point shooting. I know it's sort of a, an interesting point, but they miss Malik Beasley, right? They don't have that. They had that last year and he wasn't particularly great in the playoffs. But Duncan Robinson isn't enough. He changes what they're able to do on defense to even get them to competent three point shooting when he's out there. But you're telling me their rim threatening force has been completely contained and now their threes are terrible. That sounds like a losing formula to me. As good as Cade can be, it's like, okay, there's nobody who's going to punish them on the edges so they're going to collapse and really take Duran out of the series in this pick and roll action that's been their lifeblood all year long. That seems like a losing formula to me, doesn't it Zach? That seems like we're writing an obituary with a couple of clear causes of death. You can't score from the outside and your all NBA center sure as hell didn't look like one against the Orlando Magic.

A (51:25)

Well, a couple of things. The Pistons doing not nothing but settling for just a minor Kevin Herder traded Kevin Herder has been, you know, a non factor for a lot of the series. He was out last night I think told you that they were approaching this playoffs like all right, let's just see what we got. Like a lesser version of I made this comparison this week of, of Oklahoma City the year they lost to Dallas and just we're like we're taking this as a learning experience. So what we learned was like Josh Giddy doesn't fit our team and we're going to make a change. Well, they've learned some things the Pistons have in, in this series but Jalen Duran is only 22 years old. That's thing number one. And so they will learn from this. They just need more shooting, more offense and I think they will, if they lose this series will recalibrate a little bit and be a very interesting offseason team. In terms of do they go out and try to get a, a better second option around Cade because this is all the stuff we knew about the Pistons and worried about has come to fruition.

B (52:24)

That's right.

A (52:25)

In terms of, in terms of their playoff viability which they're still viable, they're still alive in this series. But it's been, it's been a rough go for Jalen Duran and I don't like they just, they just haven't been able to counter it enough. One thing I did like that they did last night was a Sar Thompson. First of all, what a monster that he doesn't, he doesn't just block shots. He like clotheslines shots. He like clotheslines the ball out of the air with such violence that it's, it's really jarring to watch. I checked the tracking data on Second Spectrum genius IQ today. He set 13 ball screens last night and I had talked before the game about how they just have to make him a more active part of their offense. They can't just let him stand to the side and be ignored completely and have his guy clog up the lane, like set. Have him set flare screens. And they had 13 ball screens. That's the most he set in any game this year. And it's not only a way to sort of punish the Magic for ignoring him. Like if you ignore him and he sets a screen, he's like Draymond Green. It's like, oh my God, all of a sudden Kate Cunningham has a Runway. Nobody's here. It's a way of hunting sort of the Magic's lesser defenders. And I think that that's a smart thing to do. And they scored 1.7 points per possession whenever they used a Sar Thompson in a ball screen. And the francing is huge because without him, not only do you lose your. I mean you could argue he's their best all around player, their number one defender on Cade, but the non Palo minutes last night and they'll stagger Banchero and Bain so at least Bane is out there. But the non Paolo minutes are rough, rough sledding and they were minus seven and seven minutes with him on the bench last night. And the offense is just completely rudderless. And that's when they would have both Franz and Beam out there. And the lack of Franz in those moments was. Was pretty tough.

B (54:23)

Yeah, it's not a pretty series at all, in part because both these defenses are very competent. But I'm going to go back to the stat I think that I wish I had said earlier about Duran. Among the nine pistons that have taken at least 10 shots in the series, Jalen Duran has the lowest shot quality. You talk about these nerdy player tracking stats all year long. Zach Lowe, he had the best shot quality on a team by far. He was catching all the time. Yeah, he dunked in layups. He has the lowest shot quality. And again, that gives. I'll give Jamal Mosley, who's gotten roasted, including on the Zach Lowe show and the Bill Simmons show with me, hand up. But they've done a great job here on the interior play of Jalen Duran, getting him away from his happy place and really limiting the offensive efficiency. And then on your Paolo point, I'm glad you said it. When he's making shots, he looks like one of the best scorers in the league because he can blend the jump shooting and the rim attack and get into the line. And he made his threes last night, which was great to see, but I don't expect that to happen going forward in this series. It's just, we just have too much data that suggests that Paolo's not a great three Point shooter, not a great jump shooter. So who else in, in the absence of Franz is going to score for them? It's got to be Bane or Suggs. Somebody like that's got to really step up if they're going to put the series away.

A (55:46)

Jalen Durham never blew a 30 lead either. Kirk, just for the record, couple other takes on the game last night. Number one, I think Duncan Robinson has to reconsider the proto mustache he has going. I don't think it's going well. I think it's, it's, it doesn't look it. It doesn't look great. It's like a teenager who has not realized that he needs to start shaving. That's, that's what it looks like. Number two. And the reason I don't have a great level of confidence in either team it particularly Detroit with Franz maybe not playing. We'll see. I thought they had a stretch in the second quarter where the game was kind of there for them to seize control of. Where they just did a lot of like dumb young in overaggressive things. Caris Lavert fouled Jamal. Caris not young. He's like a nine year veteran. Fouled Jamal Kane on a three. Danis Jenkins like randomly ran into double team. Paolo Banchero on the baseline 20ft from the basket and fouled him. Tobias Harris bonked a layup, a wide open layup in transition. Again, not a young guy thing. And Ban Carroll made a layup on the other end. Isaiah Stewart grabbed the rim and committed a goaltending violation on it when became an and one. And then on the missed free throw just shoved Wendell Carter Jr. To the floor because Wendell Carter Jr. Had the nerve to outwork him and outmaneuver him for an offensive rebound. Asar Thompson, a couple of like, why are you randomly running away from the only dangerous three point shooter on the other team to double team someone who's not in trouble. And Desmond Bain got a couple threes out of it. It was that stretch of the game that I just. It's like a five minute stretch of what are you doing? And this makes me worry that you're it. Like I, in my notes I was like if they lose the game, remember this stretch and they didn't lose the game, but that's it. And then as far as Bankero, I mean obviously they're trying to get. They're hunting all the small pistons guards as much as possible. And then one wrinkle I really liked for them to do that. I think they should do it more is use him as the screener for Suggs or Bane and just mix it up so it's not a palo inverted pick and roll every single time because that seems to catch the Pistons off guard. But this is, you know, like all these games are ugly and close and I expect game six to be too. The total score of the series is Orlando plus three right now. So it's going to be close and ugly.

B (58:11)

Yeah, close and ugly. That's. That's the name of the series and I. We're still waiting for the beef stew fight. There's got to be some sort of pushing and shoving with Goga or somebody coming up, don't you think?

A (58:21)

I mean, the Stu Goga, you could stage that at summer league just as an extra event for the media. If they don't get into it in this series, we could just do an MMA summer slam SummerSlam event between them. I mean, look, the. The. The magic are mostly not taken away and you know, the not. He's not even a quiet agitator. A louder agitator who is not maybe as tall and physically imposing as the guys you mentioned. Desmond Bane is always starting some shit and to the point. Remember he hurled the ball through the multiple people. One was Anunobi where an Obi. He like pegged in and obi as if they were like playing wiffle ball and he was throwing the ball at him and Anobi was like what did. Just was confused like why did you do that to me? Anyway. All right, let's take a break. We'll talk about some other league wide news before we go. This episode is brought to you by ebay. You guys know that watching basketball is my thing, obviously. But you know what else is? 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Plus 90s all star games caps complete with host team side patches for that authentic throwback feel. Available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles. Visit newer cap.comringer to shop now and use the one time code Ringer for 20% off your first order. All right. The other big news non playoffs in the NBA is the league has sent to its 30 teams and its general managers its revised and combined proposal for lottery reform which they would hope would go into into effect next season. Already in the 2027 draft, they want to vote on it in May. We're just trying to rush this through the. Rush this through congress, rush it through the legislature. Let's get it through. Rubber stamp it. Let's go. They are calling it the 3, 2, 1 lottery proposal. The NBA's attempt to give something a little bit convoluted, a very simple and buzzy name. And the basic thing is this. They're flattening the odds even flatter than they are now. I'm gonna try to keep it as simple as possible so that there is less advantage to being among the worst teams in the NBA and more profit to be had toward the back of the lottery. And now including some of the play in teams, including whatever teams end up as the eighth seed would be in the lottery. We're expanding the lottery into 16 teams now. And not only are they flattening the odds to make it less profitably very bad, they are relegating the three worst teams. If you finish with one of the three worst records, you are not relegated to the G league. You are relegated to a second level of odds that are worse than the teams with the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th worst records in the NBA. The other teams we missed the play in, you still are in the lottery. You still are part of the lottery. You still have pretty decent odds. You have a floor of the number 12 pick. You can't fall below that, but you have a actual worst subset of odds. That idea came from a team that I shall not name who proposed that in order to incentivize winning, to not just punish losing, we need to actually sort of punish the worst worst teams. And that incentivizes winning, obviously by they will try to all win toward the end of the season to not be in the three worst teams and the teams that are above them in the standings. Will also try to win to keep, keep them in the three worst teams. Obviously the big worry here that you hear from around the league is, and this is something I'm still battling with in my soul, Kirk, is the draft has historically been designed to help bad teams. This doesn't completely do away with that. The bad teams, if you ran this system for 50 years, the bad teams would win or win out or have better picks than the good teams or the mediocre teams in the aggregate. But it does sort of muddy it a little bit. And then underneath that is of course, the lurking, always present small market concern over, well, if Oklahoma City and San Antonio and small market teams X, Y and Z can't get elite players through the draft or can't almost. You can never guarantee getting elite players in the draft, but can't jack up our odds to a point where it becomes a profitable strategy and we can't get them in free agency and it's harder to trade for them. How exactly are we getting them right? Are any of those arguments persuasive to you? And just what do you think of this three to one bonanza?

B (63:50)

It's a lot, I think. Look, the new CBA has made trades harder than ever. Free agency seems to be more restrictive and sort of less active than ever. All that is to say the draft is the most important team building tool in the league right now for everybody. And so they have to get this right. This proposal, I think clearly would wound teams like the Wizards and the Kings and the Pacers this year. In the current system, there would be a 42% chance.

A (64:24)

Those are the three worst teams. Those are the three bottom three records.

B (64:28)

They would get a 42% chance of getting the number one pick in, in, in, in total, we're bringing each. Yeah, we're bringing that down to 16%. So we're really saying you, we don't want teams to be at the bottom. That's a really bad play.

A (64:44)

So I think I'll put it in even more stark terms for you right now. The three worst teams in the league have a. The worst team has a 100% chance at a top five pick.

B (64:56)

Yeah.

A (64:56)

The second worst team has an 80% chance at a top five pick. The third worst team has a 67% chance at a top five pick. In this proposed system, all three of those teams would have a 28% chance at a top five pick'. I mean, that is a massive, massive drop off. And the teams, the teams above them in the standings, better than them record wise. But also in the play in tournament, they would have a 39% chance at a top five pick. So there really is a cliff there.

B (65:29)

And I think that's perfectly well said. So I think we're. This what this proposal does is it effectively disincentivizes really, really sucking. It really disincentivized the quote process. Right. That we can't do that anymore. I think we would agree, Zach Lowe, that this effectively takes that strategy off the board. You don't want to be very, very bad. The more interesting thing is what happens to the sort of typically bad teams and the incentives towards the middle of the league. And you've heard this for as long as I have. The NBA punishes the middle. You don't want to be kind of bad. The traditional lottery that we have right now really punishes a team like the Bulls. They always seem to be there, right? 30 and 52. 32 and 50, something like that. You don't want to. So this to me is really going to be successful or fail depending on how teams react in that middle class. Like the 5th to 15th worst teams. And I heard Bill say this and I want to get your feedback. Will we see teams. I don't really want to deal with the plan. Are we going to now see teams be like, oh, I'm just two spots away from having an 8% chance of the number one pick in the draft. Are we going to start to see a team like Miami or Charlotte this year saying, you know what, fuck it, I'm just going down a few slots to get into those juicy lottery ball positions. That's where this thing's up on trial.

A (66:56)

So I'm glad you brought that up. It is an area of concern around front office people who this proposal, at least the feedback that has come to me or that I have sought out from sources has been largely pretty positive. People seem to like it. I think there will be pushes for tweaks here and there, like maybe protect the worst teams, like raise their floor a little bit. So instead of being the 12th pick there maybe their floor is the 9th or 10th pick. And this is one of the things that comes up is, is there too big of a cliff between making the play in and or playoffs and missing the play in. So like that like sweet spot of not the three worst teams but not in the play in, you have an 8% chance at the number one pick. The losers of the seven, eight games have a 2.7% chance of the number one pick. And you know, different, different odds gaps for top five, top three and then the ninth and 10th teams have a 5% so there is a big at the number one pick. So there is a big difference. I think the league would argue, and I bet they're probably going to end up being right, that by including the play in teams in like a non trivial way in the lottery for not just the number one pick but for top three picks, top five picks. Like for instance current system, the four play in teams have between a 2% depending on where you are, a 2% and like 9% chance at a top five pick. Right in this new proposed. So two, like almost no chance, 2 to 8%, not almost no chance, but very little chance. In this system the play in teams would have either a 15% chance if you're in the 78 game or a 28% chance if you're in the 910 game at a top five pick. Those are like that's a real chance at a high pick. And I think the league is betting that that's good enough. That teams will not endure the shame from their fan base, the lack of postseason home game revenue to tank from the sixth seed into the play in or from the play in to the lower half of the play in or from the lower half of the play into out, that the incentives are aligned to dissuade teams from doing that. I think they're probably right. Only time will tell and there may be a little tweak here and there. It's a legit concern. It's a concern I've heard from front office people. So I just. If you do that, shame on you. But obviously any of these systems is going to be imperfect and will create a line somewhere where there's an incentive to be bad. You can't totally eliminate. Well, you can, but you can't do it like this.

B (69:37)

Yeah, we play over 1200 regular season games and the nicest thing I'll say to the NBA is that I think this proposal makes a greater chunk of those games watchable. I think that what we saw this year, what we.

A (69:50)

What a concept.

B (69:51)

Kurt.

A (69:52)

I know stakes in the regulars season, it's tragic.

B (69:55)

You know when you got a kid and I got a kid and I remember talking to one of my girls this season and trying to explain to her why the team was trying to lose. Right. And I know it's sort of a cliche moment, but like there were a lot of those games, whether you were in the arena with your family or watching league pass like you and me or just whatever, a huge chunk of the inventory this year was trash because teams were trying to lose. That can't happen in any pro sports league that's trying to get us to pay hundreds of dollars to go to an arena to watch other people play sports. They need fix this. And I think this does probably get closer to fixing it without completely fixing it.

A (70:33)

Now, there are other ways to add actual stakes to more NBA games, one of which would be to shorten the season, which is not a silver bullet, but some sort of COVID bullet that would help with a lot of these problems at first blush. And again, it's so ingrained in my soul, my socialistic sports soul, that the draft, the purpose of it is to help bad teams get good. And anything that chips away at that does present the possibility that it's not gonna. I don't, I'm not gonna use this language of God. We're gonna have haves and have nots and it's gonna be hopeless for a bad team to get good, but it will make it a little bit harder. And I struggle with that. Just like I struggle with the whole maybe there shouldn't be a draft at all concept, which is over here and not under consideration right now. But at first blush, I think this proposal does a pretty good job at. It's basically saying the tanking problem is so bad that we have to make fixing that priority number one. And if that makes it a little bit harder for bad teams to game the draft, if that chips away at the nature and the soul of the reverse order draft, then so be it. Because there is still a vague reverse ordering like this still does favor the worst teams. It still does only include the bottom half of the league in the lottery. It's not like we're doing a 30 team flat odds draw where the Thunder without the Clippers but could get the first pick. And I think, I think based on how bad this season has been and maybe next year wouldn't have been as bad and the year after wouldn't have been as bad because the drafts are not as high value. But I think as bad as this season has been, that's okay. Like if you're going to chip away at the reverse order principle and helping bad teams sing a little bit to eliminate just how many horrible games there were and how many teams were trading for players and not playing them, sitting players for no reason, pulling players in the second half of games, I think that trade off is worth it. And this does a pretty good job of it. I also think, I don't know if people have realized this. It's going to change the lottery. Like how the lottery actually works pretty dramatically. Did you ever get to sit in the back room, like where I go every year?

B (72:56)

No, they got to let me in. Send me my invite, please.

A (72:59)

So if I'm understanding how this is going to work, right now there's a lottery machine like you see on the old television news with the balls flying around inside of it and the meteorologists picking out the thing with 15 balls in it, or 14 balls, I think whatever it is numbered 1 to 14, they're not numbered by teams. They just have numbers on them. And what teams own is combinations of numbers, four digit combinations. And so there are like 1001 or something possible four digit combinations. And the worst teams own the most of those combinations. So, like the worst teams own whatever, 25% of the combination, whatever, 14% of the combination, whatever it is. And they. So you pick four balls out and then the guy reads like, 2, 6, 7, 12, Detroit has the number one pick. Now, if I'm reading this correctly, 3, 2, 1 is how many balls each team gets. Like, like you get three balls, you get two balls, you get one ball. That totals up to 37 balls. And so I think what we're going to get are like team branded logo embossed ping pong balls. 37 of them all floating around in this machine. And up comes like, oh, it just says raptors or whatever. Like win the number one pick. No four number combinations. No one is like right now everyone is in there looking through spreadsheets that are 10 pages long to see who owns what four digit combination. Now it's just logo, ball. This is done. This is it. And we're drawing all of them, all 16 in this proposal would get drawed. Draw. Draw is not even a word drawn. So that really changes the. The mechanics of those ping pong balls are going to be kind of cool, I think.

B (74:44)

Oh man, let's get some artists designing them right now. I think that's a really fun idea.

A (74:49)

I want to say this. I want to be. I think I deserve this. I want to be the celebrity drawer of the lottery machine. Ok? Like, forget these Ernst and young people. Forget the NBA officials who have to stand there like, this is the most serious thing they've ever done. Who has put more love and affection and sweat equity into this ridiculous spectacle that is the NBA lottery than I have? I have in my little TV backdrop over here, the stopwatch, the red stopwatch that the NBA official who has to ceremoniously turn his back to the Crowd or turn his back to the machine rather and signal with a hand raising up when the 22nd interval or 10 second interval is up and you can draw the next ball and has a red stopwatch. The same guy did it.

B (75:38)

Yep.

A (75:38)

I'm just going to say his name. Mike. Good day. Did it for like 10 years in a row. We became friends because I'm the number one lottery fan. When he retired and left the NBA. He didn't retire, he left the NBA. He gave me the red stopwatch and autographed it for me. I have the red stopwatch. I want to be the drawer. I want to draw the balls. Let me do it.

B (75:58)

I think you should go get it and put it on Netflix for everybody to see. I would like this. I think you should wear your LED shirt. I think they should have the Emirates Lottery drawing.

A (76:09)

I'll wear anything. I'll wear anything with any sponsor, Michelob Ultra T shirt, whatever you want me to wear.

B (76:15)

Put on your FanDuel hat, your Michelob Ultra shirt. But yeah, they should do this. This would be great television. I'm not even joking. The current thing they do is suspenseful with all the people sitting out there on the stage. Of course, we all know that the fate is sealed by that time and it's just for show, but, man, that's a cool opportunity and we should definitely do a live Zach Lowe show from the lottery. That would be a very good episode.

A (76:43)

You can't bring anything in there. You can't bring a phone. You can't bring a computer. You're in there, dude. Well, they let media in there. They have like 10 or 12 media in there, but you can't bring any electronics. I just. The problem I would have is I wouldn't be able to censor myself. So if, like, you know, like, if Dallas, like last year, Dallas wins the lottery, I would have been up there. Be like, we can't. We got to do this over again. This is ridiculous. Or like you. You should be. Utah wins. Like, you guys should be embarrassed by what you did. Wizards win. Like, you weren't there last year. No, this year I'm telling. I was there last year. I was there last year.

B (77:14)

Yeah, yeah, you were there last year.

A (77:18)

But here's my point. What you what, what you are saying and what I am saying about does this make it harder for bad teams to get good? Does it make it harder for small market teams? These are legitimate concerns. It's fair. Now, there have been a lot of bad teams who have gotten a lot of bites at the Apple in a lot of different lottery systems and fucked them up over and over again. And there's been a lot of smart teams who have gotten great players in the middle of the first round. There's also been a lot of teams who have actually properly gamed and gotten lucky in the lottery, like your San Antonio Spurs.

B (77:56)

100%.

A (77:57)

As wonderful as this run is, if they have Brandon Miller instead of Victor Wembanyama, they're not in the playoffs right now. They probably don't have de' Aaron Fox right now. It's, it's a whole. Forget Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle. If they can get keep those two guys. The Thunder, the Thunder 1.0 was all top five picks in Serge Ibaka. This Thunder is like shay was an 11th or 12th pick. J Dub was a late lottery pick. So there's different ways to do it. But here's my thing. You can't out of both sides of your mouth whine about oh my God, this makes it so much harder for bad teams and also whine about how tanking is out of control and a scourge on the league. Like you. If you want to solve the tanking problem, you're going to have to chip away at the reverse order draft. You can't have it both ways. And so I see all this whining about, well, teams are going to be trapped and how are bad teams going? Well, too bad. Like you wrought this, you teams, a lot of you wrought this and this is a way to solve a more urgent problem. And lastly, there's merit to this. If it is indeed harder for some teams to get access to superstar draft prospects, then I think there are other things you can do in the CBA to give them better access to superstar or star level NBA players. Namely like let's talk about eliminating restricted free agency so that a really good fourth year player is not just trapped on his own team, maybe a bad team, maybe the Wizards have cap room this summer that so and so becomes a free agent and they can actually use it to get that player. There's a lot of discussions to be had and that's why it's important for people to remember this solution is not permanent. It's going to be revisited in a few years and maybe scrapped entirely. We'll see.

B (79:41)

Yeah, and Adam Silver, I think he, he self identified as an incrementalist early in this discussion and I support all of that. I support incrementalists in our society, but I think this is incremental progress. Zach. I think that's where I Land, I'd love to see this play out. I think teams will be like you mentioned. I think it was you. Like Lauri Markkanen, a huge chunk of his prime has now been lost to this sort of process in Utah. And that sucks. That sucks for Jazz fans. And look, if this were the current system, I don't think the Jazz would have played the way they play down the stretch. And that's good for those of us who just want to watch good pro basketball. So I think this is an incremental step towards a solution.

A (80:27)

Well, let's look at the Jazz then. Right. Like Lowry, Markkanen was the seventh pick in the 2017 draft.

B (80:33)

Yep.

A (80:33)

He was acquired as you know, one of the major pieces, but not like a centerpiece in a trade involving the 13th pick, Donovan Mitchell in the 2017 NBA Draft. He's now the most important player on the Utah Jazz. Keonte George was what, the 16th pick? Yeah, the 16th pick in the 2023 draft. He's the second most important player on the Utah Jazz. Ace Bailey was the fifth or sixth pick, I think sixth pick, fifth pick. So like he's a high pick, but he's not a number one. Like there are just different ways to build your team. And a lot of teams have built through the top three picks and fucked them all up all the time. So anyway, last thing related to this. Yeah, the Blazers were eliminated by your San Antonio Spurs. Interesting off season coming for the Blazers. El Cheapo has. Bill has dubbed him the new owner. Tom Dundon has to hire a middle school PE Teacher as the Blazers head coach. We'll see who takes that job. I think Tiago Splinter should just get the job and be fairly. I know, it's like, what a novel concept. The guy does a good job. Reward him with a fair contract. That's. I'm sorry. They do have though some interesting, interesting questions going forward. They have Scoot Henderson up for a contract extension. Already had had an interesting, like a nice, a nice year and then two bad games at the end they have Shade and Sharp's contract extension kicking in four years, about 90 million. Finished the season playing six minutes in an elimination game and very clearly in the doghouse yet again defensive liability. I mean, is the. The young core here right now is like we know for sure our cornerstone players is Abdia, who's only 25 and he's extension eligible. There's no extension that exists that he will take because his salary is too low. So Tomani Camara, rock solid three and D guy, and Donovan Klingon who's a very nice young center prospect. And then after that it's like, is Scoot part of the long term core? I would. He's had an interesting year. I'd be interested to hear. Take Shaden Sharp. We'll see. And then they have Orlando's first round pick in 2028. Do you remember how they got that pick?

B (82:55)

No idea.

A (82:57)

This is going to be an interesting one to revisit. They got it from Memphis, who owned it via the Bain trade. And Memphis traded up to get Cedric Coward with the Blazers pick and the Blazers for their. For moving back. Got that Orlando pick and drafted Yang Han Sen, who. I mean, it's great that he's making the Blazers popular in China. He's not helping them win any NBA games anytime soon. They own Milwaukee, swap rights in 2028 and 2030 and an extra first round pick in 2029 from either Boston or Milwaukee. So they've got some stuff to play with. What do you think of this team? Every team, every, every team in the west has this like every young building team in the west has the same dilemma, which is how do we reach the level of these two teams at the top who are also really young.

B (83:52)

Well, they found something and again, I'm a big Thiago guy. You know, they had such a crazy season. We don't have to go through the Chauncey stuff, the ownership stuff, and then like Mike Schmitz and the other assistant GM get in trouble for tampering with Yang before the draft. Right.

A (84:08)

Which never really came out. Like, what did they actually do?

B (84:12)

I don't know. I wanted to hear more about that too because I think we work with Mike at espn. I was like, okay, what's going on here? But yeah, just a really strange backdrop right away from the roster you have ownership uncertainty, you have this coaching crisis. Thiago, like a Phoenix from the ashes, brings this thing to the playoffs.

A (84:34)

Phoenix from the ashes.

B (84:35)

Wow. It was, dude. I mean, seriously, who expected there's two kinds of playoff losses act there's a team where, like, if Detroit loses, it's a catastrophe.

A (84:45)

If Cleveland loses, it's a catastrophe. If Detroit loses, it's disappointing.

B (84:49)

Eight, one. Come on. But Portland getting here and losing to a good team in five games, that's a pretty nice outcome for their season given where they started after game one with their head coach getting pulled out of bed in the middle of the night by the feds. Like, so I'd start there, dude. Like, this has been a pretty successful run starting with that day with Thiago, hire Thiago. First of all, Damian Lillard, you didn't mention the only thing I would add. I was like, okay, Damian's coming back. That's going to bring sort of the tickets back and they're going to have a face of the franchise again. I don't expect much from Damian at this phase of his career. I would say the core to your question is cling and Denny and Scoot. I'm putting Scoot in there. I don't think they have the. I don't think they're in a position to risk him going somewhere else and being really good. And what we saw, I was at the game in game two where he looked like the best player on the court at times and then he would disappear. But I am going to extend Scoot there. And I think they really found a defensive identity with their front court. I thought Time Lord was good at times. Kamara, you mentioned Drew Holiday. They found something there. I would continue to build around this core and try to build a top five defense and an adequate offense.

A (86:05)

So Drew Holliday was sensational for them. One healthy. He has next year 34.8 million and a player option for 37.2 and 27, 28. Jeremy Grant, who was Jeremy Grant, has almost an identical contract in length and mechanics. Yeah, Scoot, I agree with you. Like, I, you know, about two weeks into Scoot finally coming back for injury, I had Kyle Mann on and we did like a Brandon Miller scooter revisitation. And I said on that pod, I was like, just keep an eye on Scoot. Because there are some signs here, like, the explosion is still here. The jumper looks better. He doesn't finish around the rim as emphatically as you would think. And his turnovers are. Were kind of out of control, but there was something going on. And then in the playoffs and the end of the regular season, defensively he really got engaged for the first time and like. And like was denying the ball and doing all this stuff. And in a weird way, for a guy who came out as a number one ball handler and a point guard, they just simplified things for him and were like, I think he averaged like two assists a game in the playoffs. You're going to play off the ball a lot. You're going to play almost like I'm going to say 80% of your minutes. With Denny Abdia, they didn't stagger them as much as you would think. And we're just going to take the game and make it simpler for you, you're not going to be the point guard, you're not going to have to make all kinds of decisions. You're going to be a secondary ball handler and we trust your jump shot and we want you to defend. And he kind of thrived in that role and I'm interested to see how that evolves. It minimizes turnovers. It made, it just made the game simpler for him, the sharp one. It's just wildly disappointing that the end of every season, Chauncey and now Thiago Splitter are like, yeah, we can't trust you. Like we're going to bring you off the bench. We don't trust your defense, we don't trust your decision making on offense because there's something in there. There's obviously like explosive eye popping talent and athleticism, but when he dials in and focuses and doesn't take no pass, long twos and tries on defense and just when he gets the ball, keeps it moving, there's an interesting player there, but it just hasn't sustained. And he's still very young. But there's a downside in which this contract becomes, I don't want to say dead money, but like a Christian Brown kind of like, ooh, this, we thought this was an okay idea at the time and maybe it's like again there's going to be ebbs and flows to, to all of this, but the thing that they need is obviously shooting and any team that has Denny and Scoot and a center like Clingan who is trying to become a shooter and will be serviceable. I guess like you can't go out and trade if you're going to pour in all your assets for like a big move and it's not one of the five best players in the league, it can't be a non shooter. It can't be another alpha ball handler who's an okay shooter. It can't be another big man who's an okay shooter. It has to be someone who could shoot. Which is why I'm just interested to see how some of these playoff series sort of end up. Like, would you throw everything at Donovan Mitchell if the Cavs flame out and that becomes a thing? Would you throw everything at Jamal Murray if the Nuggets flamed out? And that becomes, I don't, I don't know. And I don't think either of those players will be traded, but you never know. And those are the kind of names that if I'm like star hunting and it's not Giannis and maybe I Shouldn't Star hunt? Maybe I should just aim lower and make tweaks and bring in some shooters here. There. That's probably the most likely thing, but that's. I just think they have a lot of stuff and at some point you got to take a swing if you're really going to compete at the highest level. But I agree with you that like, basic thing number one is let's lean all the way into being a top three defense and just get in a playoff series against one of those teams and see if we could fuck it up a little bit.

B (89:50)

Yeah, I'm in on that. I think the biggest thing they got to do is just lean in on Thiago and be like, this is a good coach. We're the Portland Blazers. Nobody expected much from us the last 30 games of the year. They were really good and had this thing. I think the most important shooting project is Denny himself. If Denny could learn to shoot a little more reliably, if he could develop a step back. He's such a gifted attacker. He knows the dark arts, obviously of getting to the free throw line. You know, that's one of the more important player development challenges in the organization is just, can Denny become an average 3 point shooter? Can he do what some of the other gifted attacking players of his size have learned to do, like Luka Doncic, develop a step back? Because that, that's really. If they can get that right, they're good. I like their coaching staff, as I said, and then Damian coming back. So I think they have some interesting pieces. I haven't thought much about if they could attract somebody in the trade market, but you're exactly right. Next week is the most fascinating week of the year for the trade machine. Right. Because all of these disappointing teams, then you start to look at players like you alluded to that could become available in, in the trade market over the summer.

A (91:07)

Yeah, this first round has been a big win for some old school conventional wisdom. Non shooters are really hard to play in the playoffs. Defensive liabilities become harder to play in the playoffs. The game slows down in the playoffs and there are 16 game players like Draymond once said, and 82 game players. And it's wonderful that you had a great season up in the lead up to the playoffs, but the playoffs is a different animal and teams are going to treat you differently and there's going to be Jalen Duran kind of stories every year and they stress test your roster in a way that the regular season never, ever will. If you have any weaknesses, if you have any chemistry issues, if you have any just weak links in the chain. The playoffs are going to lay them bare for everybody to see and give you a clearer idea after the season of like, what do we actually have here? And that's what you're referring to. Some of these teams get to the end of the playoffs like, all right, we didn't think we had. We didn't have what we thought we had. We have this lesser thing and said, by the way, on the Blazers, I haven't verified this, but sports business radio tweeted this. I don't know if you saw this about the mascots and Tom Dundon.

B (92:13)

No, I have not. I know that's going to trigger you a source.

A (92:17)

This is directly from sports Radio. Sports Business Radio. I have not seen it refuted anywhere. A source told me the person tweets that Dundon doesn't think the Blazers should have two mascots. Blaze the Trail Cat and their secondary mascot, Douglas Fir.

B (92:35)

Douglas Fir, great name.

A (92:37)

Douglas Fir is a, is a flannel wearing yeti of some kind. Obviously named after the fir trees. He was recently reintroduced, I think introduced like three years ago. Look, if you're coming for the mascots. Yeah, just maybe just don't buy the team. If you're coming for the ma. If the mascots are like, we, you know what, we can cut six figures from the budget.

B (93:02)

There's gonna be a nine year old kid at the Blazers game next year being like, mom, where's Douglas Fir at?

A (93:08)

Where's my boy Dougie Furr.

B (93:09)

It's gonna be a hard conversation that's gonna. It's not worth it. New owner. It's not worth it. El Cheapo. It's not worth it for that nine year old kid to be like, remember that time I got my picture with Douglas Fir? Where's Douglas Fir now?

A (93:23)

Oh, I do like these ridiculous Matt Scott games. Blaze the Trail Cat, who's been there all the way. Blaze is a mainstay.

B (93:30)

You're another team like 2. El Cheapo's point. Those Acclo as one of the teams that have two mascots.

A (93:37)

Yes. Off the top of my head, the Cleveland Cavaliers have like a swordsman guy and then they have, they have Moondog who's just a dog who just runs around is like, I'm a dog. Like it's what I am. There's probably another one off. This is a great question for listeners. Does your team have a secondary mascot? There are at least two and Douglas Fir is one of them. Douglas Fir is a proud, proud to Be the secondary master. He's not trying to make a coup against Blaze the Trail Cat. He's proud. All right, Kirk Goldsberry, what do we got coming up from you?

B (94:07)

I just published a piece about what I'm looking at in the first round. There was a big Wemby thing and I am now looking at injuries. We everybody likes that. But shout out to my spurs. That's the last thing I want to get to. First series win in seven years. Off to a dicey start. I was there at game two and Wemby fell down. Really scary moment announced out in game three. It was a real question for this young team. Our man Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle both played great games in on the road. Just a great series win. Of course they were expected to win, but they overcame some adversity. But yeah, I'm watching the spurs baby.

A (94:45)

Round two and my unsung guy for them continues to be Devin Vassell. I mentioned how Scoot's decision making was kind of simplified this year. The same thing has happened for Vassell, who now that they have three point guards on the team plus an all world centerpiece, he just doesn't have to do as much on offense. Like there was a moment two seasons ago where he was running more pick and roll and they were running more offense through him. Now it's just like you're going to start in a corner, you're going to come off pin downs. The decision tree is going to be real simple. We're going to leverage your shooting in all kinds of different ways but you catch it. If you have a mid Ranger, great next pass over, great. If you're open for three, great. And the result has been a simpler game for him on offense and defensively and on the glass that guy has leveled way up like there was a two or three years ago. The spurs people would have tell you he's not, he's not really becoming the defender we thought he could be. He's kind of a liability and he's not a stopper now. But he gets contested rebounds and he did. He blocked. I think it was either it was clinging or Robert Williams that he blocked at the rim in game five like he wasn't making plays like that even six months ago. And it's just, you know, a sign that everyone on that team is dialed in to all the stuff that actually wins. And I can't wait to see how the west of these western rest of these Western Conference playoffs unfold. But yeah, your spurs are, your spurs are in quite the position, Mr. Goldsberry?

B (96:02)

Yeah, I think they're, they're great. I'm rooting for them obviously, but if they get to that Thunder series, that's a treat for every basketball fan. I mean, a lot to do to get there, but you're right when they're making threes, whether it's Dylan or Champagne got hot in Game 5 and Vista and both Champagne and Visell deserve a lot of credit for becoming grittier rebounding type players than I would have expected in this rotation. Not to mention Kelton Johnson really leaning into that six man role. But yeah, this is a great team, man, and we're really excited. I loved your pod with Shay, by the way. It was great to hear you guys chop it up. And yeah, San Antonio, Shay Serrano.

A (96:40)

Not Shay Gilgis Alexander.

B (96:41)

Yeah, not Shaden Sharp, who I don't think is coming on your podcast recently or soon based on what you just said about him, but Shay Serrano and I hope to be going to a lot of these playoff games in San Antonio soon.

A (96:53)

You said Champagne's name. I do think underrated swing moment in the season is when Mitch Johnson pulled the trigger on Champagne starts and Harrison Barnes comes off the bench because they knew that that was going to make them a little smaller, it was going to bring some defensive challenges. But they also knew we just can't put lineups out there where it's easy for teams to put their center on someone other than Wembanyama and Harrison Barnes was the place where they would put their centers. Now obviously we've seen Portland put clinging on Castle the entire series and teams will do that too. Castle's just such a much more dynamic player. Not the shooter Harrison Barnes is. But that was a, that was like a big fork in the road of like. All right, I think we just have to do it. Harrison, you're coming off the bench anyway. Lots to lots to come in the playoffs. Kurt Goldsberry, check them out at the ringer. You're always, always welcome on the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you next time, bud.

B (97:44)

Thank you.

A (97:47)

All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show today. We will be back on Tuesday as usual. I'll be on Bill's podcast on Sunday. We're going to have some game sixes and same game sevens to talk about. Buckle up for that. Thanks to the great Kurt Goldsberry for his time and his insight. Thanks as usual to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe show, including on Netflix See you next week. 21 or over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800-Gambler or 1-800-My reset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp line ma.org or call 800-327-505, oh for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.