← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Can the Cavs Close Out? Plus: What's Next for LeBron, Giannis Is Being Shopped, and Spurs-T-Wolves Game 6
01:38:55
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Playoff season is here. So what better way to get into the spirit of things than with a tournament of your own? Compete to see who can make the best dip. Test your basketball skills with a game of around the World. Even better if Michelob Ultra is on the line, especially since they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, prizes and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com courtside Michelob Ultra Courtside 25 to 26. No purchase necessary. Open US residence 21+ begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules@michelob ultra.com courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. Coming up on the Zach Low Show. Whoa, it's an off day. There are no games tonight. We're going to talk with Howard Beck about Pistons Cavs. What an ending. Controversial no call, no foul. A star Thompson falls over. Maybe he got tripped, maybe he didn't. Was it the right call? Was it the wrong call? In overtime, The Cavs, once down 20 and looking hopeless, take a 32 lead going home for Game 6. We talk about what's changed in the series, what adjustments might have to happen for Detroit to stay alive, what Cleveland has still to play in its deck of cards. And Jalen Duran. It's not going great. Talk about all things offseason. I just got back from Chicago. We talk about draft lottery buzz. Lakers eliminated. What's next for them? LeBron James? What team's he going to play for? What about Austin Reeves? Talk about Daryl Morey being out in Philadelphia. Was that the right call? What went wrong? Where did the Sixers go from here? What went right? What went wrong? All that embiid Paul George, the whole thing. And then we wrap it up with Spurs Timberwolves. Coming up, Game six. After an emphatic spurs win in game five, what can the Wolves do to get back in the series then? Obviously, it was a very somber week in the NBA. Jason Collins and Brandon Clark, just awful news. We reflect on that a little bit. It's all coming up on the next episode of the Zach Low Show. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by fanduel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. And FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 over in select states 18 or over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric. Welcome to the Zach Low show, and it's been a long time since we've said the three most anticipated words in niche basketball podcasting. What up, Beck?
- [03:05]
B
Oh, what's happening, Zach? Good to hear the three anticipated words. It has been a while, mostly because my schedule is screwy. It's my fault. I blame me. And let me just say, it's just an incredible honor to be in the presence of a certified Westchester seven. I don't know where I would rank on that scale. I can't believe you're wearing this shirt. I was going to make reference to this regardless, because I couldn't wait to finally be able to do this to you. I had texted you the joke. You ignored it. I have. You. Have you alluded at all on this pod to your star turn?
- [03:37]
A
You have. I talked about it. I talked about hanging with OG during the day and your friends and neighbors. My wife made me this shirt. She. She forcefully suggested that I wear it on this podcast. And so I am obedient and wore it. But anyway, she's right. The offers are. The scripts are rolling in. You know, I have a team sifting through them. I'm really wary. I don't want to be typecast as Zach Lowe basketball person. I think I have a lot of range. There's a lot of buzz building, Howard. That's all. You know, I don't. I don't know where it'll lead, but there's a lot of buzz.
- [04:11]
B
I'm just afraid of where I would rank on that Westchester scale. I don't want to know, frankly. And I think if I had a cameo, it'd have to be like, groundskeeper with a lot of equipment on just to, like, shield me from the groundskeeper
- [04:22]
A
is always a suspicious character. Okay. Anyway, look, there's a lot going on in the NBA. I just got back from four days in Chicago schmoozing and boozing at the combine. I have a lot of intel, a lot of stuff to share. We'll get to that in the middle of the podcast. But we have two conference semifinals with massive implications still ongoing, both at 3 2. We have an off day today. What's going on? There's no games today. They both resume tomorrow. Cleveland, Detroit. Oh, the swings of the playoffs when this was 20 Detroit. In my notes I have a Google Doc for every series I if you did control F for the word unserious it would probably appear 25 times in regards to things the Cavaliers did in the first two and a half games of this series. Just horrendous turnovers, complete lack of communication, seemingly no clue what they wanted to do on offense and obviously the defensive struggles that have plagued them. Not, I mean not plagued them but they've been an average defense all year and you start thinking about, you know, the implications of if they lose this series. Donovan Mitchell extension eligible. Do they trade one of the bigs? James Harden has a player option. Like what would the Cass even want? Just hey man, opt in. We don't want to do this anything long term. LeBron in Cleveland and then bam. The Cavs. The redemption of James Harden. Donovan Mitchell has 39 points in one half of basketball and some controversy in game five in Detroit. The Cavaliers finally remembered you are allowed to win on the road. They have won three games in a row. They are up three to two and think about the implications of if they were to win this series. Do they go out as a potential Giannis Antentokounmpo suitor? Do they go out as a potential LeBron James suitor? We'll talk about Braun later. Does James Harden sign like a one plus one or a two year deal with the Cavs? Is everything hunky dory because this has turned around so much? This is what happens in the playoffs. The fates of franchises swing in two game spans. But let's talk about the end. Howard Beck.
- [06:21]
B
Yes.
- [06:22]
A
I'm just going to tee up. Tie game, James Harden dribbling around. Dribble, dribble, dribble, gets inside and as Sar Thompson makes his I don't know, I'm just going to estimate 42nd deflection block, whatever of the game. Ball goes loose. Collision, some sort of collision between Asar Thompson and Jared Allen on the sideline. Ball goes out of bounds. Buzzer sounds no call. JB Bickerstaff enraged every coach enraged all the time at the officials. Your take Mr. Beck on the controversial no call. The leaving the Pistons by the way and their fans for the second consecutive year feeling burned by an end of game no call in a pivotal game last year was Game 4 against the Knicks when Josh Hart fouled Tim Hardaway Jr. On a three did not get called for the foul this year. It's this your take, Mr. Beck.
- [07:11]
B
In real time. I was, I think I had the same expression on my face as a SAR Thompson did, which was what? Wait, hold on, there's nothing. And then I went, okay. You know, sometimes you see the replay and you go, ah, okay, maybe it wasn't as the impact wasn't as big as I thought it was or there was some other circumstance. Maybe I missed something. I don't know man. I've rewatched it like 15 times. It still sort of looks like a foul to me. The pool report with Tony Brothers was interesting because he just kind of dismissed it as incidental contact. And the really interesting part and I don't think I've seen this in all the years that we've had the pool pool reports which has been forever frankly. But I don't think we've seen this specific reference which is Cody Davis of the Detroit News follows up and says so, so he asked about it. Tony Brothers says during live play both players were going for the ball and there was incidental contact with the legs. No player having possession of the ball. So no call should have been or snowfall should have been called. Cody S. Tony Brothers. No, there was incidental contact on the play. The play will be reviewed by the league office tomorrow and it will be posted in the L2M. I don't think I've ever seen a, a referee, much less one of Tony Brothers vast experience and seniority. Kind of dismissed the follow up question as listen man, it's going to be covered in the last two minute report and we'll see what the league says then. I like, I, I don't know what that, if that's hinting at like less than conviction or just dismissiveness like you're going to see, I'm going to be validated.
- [08:38]
A
I think it's him saying, I made this call, I stand by it, the league because of the time and score. It will be reviewed. Go read it tomorrow, see what the league thinks. First of all, on Tony Brothers, it's, it's Joe Kim Noah's fault. Joe Kim Noah came on my podcast a couple years ago and we talked about referees and Tony Brothers and he calls Tony Brothers catfish because he thinks he looks like a catfish. And I just can't unsee it now. I, it's, it's just, he's just a catfish talking and doing the reviews. I can't unsee it. It's Joe Kim know his fault. So I, I'M fine with the no call. That's my take. I I'm fine with it. I'm not even sure it was a foul. I so I've zap I've watched it in slow mo like 20 times and legs says on the call Jared Allen's foot hits a Sar Thompson's foot. That's the first contact. The first contact between them is actually a Sar Thompson's off arm on Jared Allen which I don't think should be a foul either. And it's a pretty light contact and I don't think Jared Allen's foot hits a Sar Thompson's foot so much as both their feet hit the ground at the same time and they hit the same sliver of the ground at the same time and then it's hard to tell how much contact there is after that. I think it's innocent no contact. I think it's a good no call. I'm fine with the no call. And by the way, if you want to play this game, A you had a nine point lead with three minutes left and you collapsed. B you had an absolutely inexcusable turnover after Donovan Mitchell 3 in overtime where Max Drew pick sick picked Cade Cunningham and Donovan Mitchell got a layup. See your starting center who's going to make it all NBA team was benched for the last 18 minutes of the game for Paul Reed and is averaging nine points a game on 46% shooting in the series. This Jalen Duran thing has reached a full on crisis point for the we talk about offseason implications of of the Pistons potentially losing this series this way. He it feels like he's losing a million dollars a minute in this series. I'm not. And and the Pistons need for a secondary creator which they did not address at the trade deadline is even more urgent and will like 100,000% be addressed somehow in the offseason. So that's that. And like if you actually zap Rooter this play, Cade Cunningham is grabbing Evan Mobley's jersey while James Harden is driving to the rim. And like that should be a foul too. I don't want it to be a foul. But I I am actually completely fine with the no call and I'm going to predict it's 11 in the morning. I'm going to predict the last two minute report validates Tony Brothers and then everyone in Detroit will say well of course the last two minute report will validate Tony Brothers. By the way, also in overtime, James Harden misses three free throws out of six as the Cavs are trying to and failing to ice the game. And on one of them, with 22 seconds left, gets his own rebound. And by the letter of the law, James Harden commits a lane violation. He has a foot in the lane when the ball is just about to hit the rim. It's not called. Pistons fans are mad about that. By the letter of the law, they are correct. It's a lane violation. The Cavs are up by three at that point. There are more egregious lane violations than that by foul shooters. And every single game, Donovan Mitchell famously committed one on missing his own free throw on purpose last season, I think, and put it back in maybe two seasons ago. That's never going to be called. It's barely a lane violation at all. You shouldn't be whining about that. And you should box out the shooter on a, on a clutch free throw. So I'm, I'm actually good with the no call. I saw Perk and Stephen A Arguing about it earlier today. Stephen A. Called, called it an egregious mistake by the referees. Perk said he was okay with it. I'm, I'm Team Perk. I don't, and I certainly don't think it was egregious.
- [12:23]
B
When you first teed it up. I was debating which order to put this in. I was going to do my usual speech first, and I didn't. I went straight to the call. But my usual speech on these things is if you've blown a nine point lead, if you've, if you've completely botched several other key sequences when you got to overtime, you don't have any real standing to make this about the one call.
- [12:45]
A
Leave Catfish alone.
- [12:49]
B
Yeah, There it was, a close call. Like, I think by definition it was incidental contact. Whether it's incidental contact and a foul or incidental contact and an appropriate no call, people can debate. What we can't debate is that the Detroit Pistons had every opportunity to put this game away a thousand other ways. And if you want to blame that call, it sounds a little hollow compared to all the things that you had in your control. So I was going to do the speech first, but I, I. There, there it is.
- [13:18]
A
Can I add on to, can I add on to your speech?
- [13:20]
B
Yeah.
- [13:22]
A
In the last 10 days, we've had J.B. bickerstaff complain about a free throw discrepancy, which is, which is significant. Cleveland has taken 34 more free throws than Detroit in the series, and he complained specifically about Donovan Mitchell shooting, I think 15 free throws in game four after Donovan Mitchell shot like no free throws for two straight weeks. By the way, JB Bickersteph, you know where your team ranked an opponent free throw rate for the season? 30th last. You foul all the time. Just like, forget it. We've had Mitch Johnson say something to the effect of like, I'm not sure any superstar has a worse whistle than Victor Wembanyama. When what Victor Wembanyama reacted to that was by nearly decapitating Nas Reed. Absolutely outrageous that he didn't get fined for that, by the way. I didn't expect him to get a suspension. I went through the precedent on the last episode. It's blurry. And I'm completely fine with no suspension to not find him. And I understand it's a symbolic gesture at best. Make the symbolic gesture. Absolutely outrageous. They didn't find him, but Ms. Johnson makes that complaint. JJ Redick complains that LeBron James has the worst whistle in the entire NBA. Here's the thing, coaches, your superstar, every single best player on all 30 teams, by definition, could not have the worst whistle in the NBA. There can only be one worst whistle in the NBA, and it's not your guy. And stop blaming every single loss in the playoffs that you have on the officiating. I understand that officials make mistakes. They're not perfect. I understand that you're really just publicly lobbying in hopes of getting a favorable call or two the next game. I get all that. You know what? Take some freaking ownership of it. Go back and say, what could we have done differently? What schemes could. We're going to talk about adjustments coming up. I'm just sick of, like, we just go through this cycle of these coaches become like children in the. They become like Little League coaches in the playoffs. There's no other reason we lost except we have to bitch about the officiating every game. I'm so tired of it. Every star. Every star. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for Jamie Bickerstaff to say Cade Cunningham has the worst whistle in the NBA. I'm waiting for Mark Dagnault to be like, you know who has the worst whistle in the NBA? Actually, it's Shay Gilgis Alexander. He gets the worst whistle in the NBA. I just. Everyone gets the worst whistle in the whole league.
- [15:38]
B
Love that. All fair. I'm going to. Yes, but this particular rant. Yes, but I kind of enjoy the fact that in the postseason we have a long storied tradition of coaches unsuccessfully, almost entirely unsuccessfully, bitching about these things in the attempt to Influence the next officiating crew that had nothing to do with the previous officiating crew. And if they're listening at all, they, they're probably sitting there going like, yeah, dude, I got no sympathy for you. Sorry. My colleagues in the last game actually got it right. Like it doesn't work. But going all the way back to Phil Jackson vs. Jeff Van Gundy and I think Riley, Chuck Daly, all them. Like there's a long story tradition of trying to work the refs after the fact in playoff series hoping that you get a more, you know, and then, you know, not to mention all the off day sending of tapes to the league office of here's all the three second violations you missed. All, oh, and here's all the moving screens, illegal screens that you missed. Like, it's fine. It's kind of part of the theater of, of the postseason. I'm okay with it.
- [16:43]
A
I told you. I, I, we talked privately a couple months ago that I had a coach reach out to me about the epidemic of push off fouls in the NBA, which has become a talking point because of SGA and Jaylen Brown and on and on and just how outrageous it was and this and that. And my reply to the coach was like, I, I want to see your reaction when your guy does it because I don't think it's somehow I don't think and this coach has a guy who does it. I don't think it's going to be as vociferous when your guy gets away with it as it is right now. So anyway, enough that it's three two, Cleveland. The total score in the series, by the way, Howard Beck is. Cleveland has 543 points and Detroit has 543 points. We have a perfect plus or minus zero and now Detroit has to win in Cleveland to prolong the series. I picked Cavs in seven. I don't know if you made a pick. I have never felt worse about a pick after two games than I did after the first two absolutely disgusting performances by the Cavs. But they've been, and I do have to say, like, as ugly as it looks for them. I did have to sit back and remind myself Toronto in the first round was the number five defense in the NBA and a very difficult defense to play against, a unique animal of switching and all that stuff. And this is the number two defense of the NBA and you do have to give the Cavs credit for. There's, there's a little, this, this series has become like a little bit of a beautiful Struggle like nothing is easy for either of these teams. And even when the Cavs get the ball moving, which they have finally done in the last couple of games by leaning into Evan Mobley, pick and rolls and letting the ball move a little bit, they gotta make like 3, 4, 5. Pass, drive, pass, drive, pass, drive. A little slip pass. Like Detroit is rotate. Both teams. Like even James Harden's rotations off the ball have been pretty solid for the most part. Like the teams are having to dig really deep with the ball just to get okay looks on offense and there's a little bit of beauty in that and you want to pinpoint the ugliness and all that. But I think you have to give the defenses credit. And the Cavs have faced two really elite defenses and they have found a way to be up 3, 2 in the series. And now I think Detroit has a lot of questions to answer. How does Jalen Duran recover from what just happened in game five? When. And Isaiah Stewart too, when, when J.B. bickerstaff is like the best two way center on our team right now is Paul Reed, who is not even in the rotation for a lot of the season. Jalen Duran and Asar Thompson, that duo for the series is -34 in, not in like whatever like 100 minutes or whatever they've played. And you know, it's this yin and yang with those guys of like they're defensive. The defensively the Pistons are incredible with Osar Thompson on the floor and any of their centers really. And offensively the spacing is just a little rickety. And I think like the Cavs could probably get away with trapping Kate Cunningham a little bit more when they're letting Kate Cunningham pick out like I want hard and I want Mitchell and he's like eating on that stuff. He was outstanding again last night. The shot making is outrageous. But they have not done the thing that Orlando did, which is we're going to take Duran out of the series by switching everything. We're going to go under on Cade and switch everything. You're not going to roll to the basket. They've not done that. They're putting. They're either switching their guards on decaded, which we'll talk about, or with their bigs kind of putting two on the ball and you think, well, Orlando had this blueprint for you and you're not following it. And I think one of the reasons they're not following it is because when they have two big guys, Mobley and Allen on the floor, they're huge on. They have One huge guy still waiting on the back line and they're like, we can put two on the ball with Cade and rotate around with our size and their lack of shooting and put a stop to whatever else is going on on the floor. And so far I give Kenny Atkinson a lot of credit. He stuck with that, he stuck with his starting five which was pretty maligned. And now that lineup is plus 15 for the series. And yeah, I'm just interested to see like does JB have the guts to make a lineup change with the season on the line in game six? I, I don't even know what it would be. It would probably be Duran. But starting Paul Reed with your season on the line would be quite a move.
- [20:59]
B
I'd be shocked. I, I think that's, that's, I understand why he rode with him down the stretch and I think that's, that's hard enough and it's hard on your young player. It's, it's hard. I have to keep reminding myself Jalen Duran's only 22 because he looks older and it feels like he's been around a while and he's already had his breakout and, but he's only 22. And I, I think going into a critical game, you know, an elimination game and benching your young star, who's, who's heading toward restricted free agency. Who's restricted? Right. Yes.
- [21:33]
A
No extension was reached. He's restricted. And if he makes all NBA he's going to be super max eligible which is going to be a very, as I said before, I don't think we've ever had a, in this age range like coming off a rookie scale that was eligible for the bump and not only didn't get it but his team was like we're just gonna ignore that completely because we don't think you're worth the supermax. And I think that's what's gonna happen.
- [21:55]
B
Well, another thing that hasn't happened or has happened very rarely is that somebody who was an all star and again likely all NBA will hear those results. I would think soon. Ish. The NBA has been waiting for openings in the schedule to.
- [22:08]
A
Yeah, we do. Are we doing the award show again? Remember the NBA short, the short lived NBA O in like September when they would hold all the awards for that.
- [22:16]
B
One of the worst ideas of the entire Adam Silver era. No, what they're doing is the NBA. I, I, I get tweaked by the NBA for asking this because I think I ask every year like how come you guys why we have this long gap. And it's the same explanation every time. I will commit it to memory NBA and so I will not bug you anymore. They wait for more off nights in the schedule. So like tonight could have been a night but they don't want to do it on nights when there's games going on. They want to do it in a gap. So we'll get back to MVP and all NBA and everything that that's still left on the table. And Duran will probably be on there. But Duran is the rare player all NBA all star who has had his production drop off by like basically 50 from regular season to, to postseason. There's various ways of slicing this up, but this is a historic ish drop off in production. It's just, it's, it's baffling. You know, our colleague Brian Curtis likes to joke about the now you tell me, you know stories once the season's over. I hope it's not one of these, you know, occasionally we get the we you find out a guy was playing through some sort of injury that hadn't been disclosed or there was something in their personal lives going what I hope it's none of those things. But I do wonder if we're going to find out a week from now that you know, Jalen Duran had something else because if it's not that, is this just young player, deer in headlights kind of thing. I, I do think it's worth reminding ourselves how young and inexperienced this Pistons team is in that. And I think I mentioned this in the story I wrote last week about the weird first round and some of the results. The Pistons went from a 44 win team that was a six seed to number one and a 60 win team without ever having won a playoff series. Yeah.
- [23:59]
A
The Magic. The Magic. Their first round opponent who may well I would say probably would have beaten them if Franz Vagar not gotten hurt, had a higher over underline going into the season than the Pistons did.
- [24:09]
B
Yeah. And were a more popular pick to be one of the top four seeds in, in the East. The Pistons, nobody had them top four and much less number one. They had never won. Again, worth emphasizing, never won a single playoff series before they became a 60 win team. Then they won their first playoff series know a week and a half, whatever it was ago and it was a struggle and here they are like they really don't have a lot under their belt and the, the playoffs, as we always say, exposes all of your flaws. The things that we're talking about now are the things we were talking about all season about lack of secondary playmaking and lack of shooting and oh, like I. You could cut it either way about Duncan Robinson's absence last night. Was it, you know, they really could have used another three point shooter out there or just somebody else to put the ball in the basket or did it actually help them? Because you know, the Cavs would just be relentlessly attacking him anyway. You slice that either way, but they just don't have a lot to fall back on. And yeah, all those blemishes are being exposed in this series of times. And by the way, I really like Tobias Harris a lot and he's been great for that team, but that was just way too much Tobias Harris last week.
- [25:13]
A
Well, but. But way too much Tobias Harris has been good for their offense for the entire playoffs because it's. If it's not him, it's way too much Caris Lavert and Paul Reed who almost won them game four.
- [25:24]
B
Just a horrible moment last night too in this. So it's got its collapse.
- [25:29]
A
Oh yeah. Well, it's. It's got, it's got to be way too much someone. And let's talk about Duncan Robinson because I do think his absence was massive for the Pistons and like I think on both ends of the floor. And that's going to sound counterintuitive because obviously the Cavs are hunting Duncan Robinson like a lot of teams do. And offensively it speaks for itself, right? Like he's their A plus plus shooter. Kevin Herder was their trade deadline sort of acquisition to help that and played three minutes last night. He's coming off injury. They just, they start Danis Jenkins. It's just the decline in their shooting is enormous without him. But I just think like almost paradoxically I've been saying since the beginning of the series, I just, just Cleveland is just over complicating things on offense. Just use your big men in pick and roll and like get the ball moving and they fall into this trap instead of like, where's Duncan Robinson? We want to hunt Duncan Robinson and James Harden for the most part, other than really down the stretch in game three when he was massively clutch and made three huge shots in a row, has really not been able to beat Duncan Robinson off the dribble. And when he hunts him and just dances with him and the two bigs are on the floor just taking up space, I think that's good for the Pistons. Now when Donovan Mitchell hunts Duncan Robinson, it's not good for the Pistons because Donovan Mitchell can blow by him. But with Duncan Robinson out, and that sort of temptation removed. The Cavs accelerated what they were already doing, which is we're just going to run the simplest, most basic stuff on our offense. We're going to run Harden, Mobley, pick and rolls with shooting around it, and Jared Allen in the dunker spot, and we're going to see if you can defend it. Evan Mobley set 31 balls, 32 ball screens last night. Howard Beck, that's the most he's ever set in any game ever, according to the tracking data. Number two was game four, 28 ball screens. And it's working like Tobias Harris is coming up to the level of the screen and the pocket pass is there. And Evan Mobley's distribution out of that has been awesome. He's finding shooters, he's finding Jared Allen, and when the floor is really clear, when only one of the bigs is on the floor, the reads get even easier for him. And I think that's just Cleveland's best offense in this series, and they've really leaned into it. They've also leaned into. He ran as the ball handler. Evan Mobley, 15 Pick and rolls last night as the ball handler. That's his also number one in any game he's ever played, ever, according to the tracking data. And so they've really leaned into using him as a fulcrum. And I'm very interested to see how Detroit adjusts to that in game six. I'm not really sure what their adjustment is. You. You'd be tempted to put a Sar Thompson on him and switch a little bit more, but that means Tobias Harris is guarding someone that Tobias Harris should not be guarding, like Streuss or Donovan Mitchell or something like that. But I think that's been a very smart adjustment that they amped up last night because Duncan Robinson was not there to go. I still think they need Duncan Robinson. And by the way, last thing I'll say before I flip it to you, and you can say whatever you want. Like, these series change fast, and when a team seems dead, they're suddenly not dead. And both of these teams have seemed dead multiple times. Detroit has already shown us they can go on the road and win a game six with their season on the line and come back and win game seven. So. And Cleveland has not exactly bought, like, an enormous amount of faith credits in my brain about, like, well, yeah, of course Cleveland's gonna win one of two games. Like, we'll see. Like, I think this series is still open for the Pistons for sure.
- [28:55]
B
My last note on that is Is, you know, we have had kind of this alternating ever since Harden got there. This, you know, sometimes it's a Harden night and sometimes it's a Donovan Mitchell night. And you know, there are times I think we still wonder about, you know, the, not the compatibility, but whether how much synergy there actually is there. And so post game, Lisa Salters asked James Harden about maybe Donovan Mitchell, you know, you taking over this time. Donovan Mitchell got you guys last time. It was your turn tonight kind of thing. And Harden said something to the effect of like, yeah, Donovan said he was exhausted from the last game. The interesting thing to me about that was that just before that interview, Donovan Mitchell and, and James Harden, you could see them talking to each other, you know, as. As everybody's celebrating the win. And it looked like Donovan Mitchell kept saying to Harden, I got you. I got you. And so I reverse engineered that after the Lisa Salters interview, thinking, I wonder if that was the. I, you got that one. I got this one. Your. Your turn next time. Now I'm exhausted. I don't know. It. It is interesting. Like, I, I do think there is a little bit of that. It's not my turn. Your turn by possession, but it seems to be sometimes game to game.
- [30:06]
A
Well, it's funny, you know, I mentioned before how these turn and the beauty of the struggle and all that. These. In these ugly, sloggy series, you do, you do learn about yourselves. A team learns about itself when it's really pressured in these playoff environments. And Cleveland was down 2, 0. And given their postseason history, given that they have been physically bullied by bully teams like the Pistons before and the like, mostly the Knicks, it. It was very interesting to see how they would respond. And then they go up, what, 17, I think, in game three and the Pistons erase the entire lead and you're like, oh boy, is this how it's going to end for the Cavs? Are they going to let go of the rope? And they don't let go of the rope. Evan Mobley starts playing with more force and more well roundedness game. James Harden and Don and Donovan Mitchell, he's had games like this before. There was one like a month or so ago at the end of the regular season when he did nothing in the first half. He had like no points. Harden did everything. He stood off to the side and then he just came out of the locker room and it clearly decided, the third quarter is me. I'm taking over the game. I don't really care if that's not how we played in the first half, I don't really care that we got James Harden here and he's like a point guard extraordinaire. I did nothing, I'm taking over. And then he did that in game for you. 39 points in the second half, just unbelievable performance. And you just wonder like it's great that he could access that and you learn something about yourself. This is a guy who's never been to the conference finals. Badly wants to get there, backs against the wall. Like can we summon that a little bit? Like a little. Can we find a happy medium? And he's had a weird scattershot playoffs and you mentioned fatigue. I just wonder like how much does Cade have left in the tank? Like every single bucket is such hard work. And I, I do wonder if part of the reason the Cavs are not trapping him more than maybe they quote unquote should when he has Mitchell or Harden on him in particular is it's just wearing him every drive because he's not like a blow by guy. It's like every drive is like burrow over here, crossover over here, spin back over here. It's just absolutely exhausting. And he's still guarding. Even though they swapped some of the assignments last night, he's still spending a fair amount of time guarding Harden and sometimes even Mitchell. And I'm just like, man, this guy, he's doing everything. And I just wonder how much he has left in the tank and if, if he can really carry it two more games like that.
- [32:26]
B
Yeah, I agree. All of that and even if they're not, you know, trapping him as as much as as they could be, he's often by the time he's getting to his shot, there's like two or three guys in his face. It looks like a lot of time and that's because he also spends a lot of it like his, his game is going to be penetration and then pulling up from somewhere in the mid range to get that shot off and by that time they're sending help and it just, it does. It looks like a lot of his shots are very well contested and sometimes he makes them and sometimes he doesn't. But they started falling short later in the game and I that that speaks to exhaustion or fatigue somewhere along the way there and Streuss is harassing the hell out of him. And I think, you know, like Cade's awesome and he's been awesome regardless. But I think the Cavs have done a great job of challenging and wearing him down throughout the course of a game so that you know, in A game like last night, he just doesn't have a lot left.
- [33:16]
A
And the broader story of this series and as a lot of these sort of like ugly sloggy defense first series go, both teams have kind of leaned more toward offense in their rotate offense and shooting in their rotation. So for Cleveland, that's a little bit more Merrell, more Streuss, less Tyson, no Keon Ellis. And for Detroit, that's like no Ron Holland. Paul Reed is an offense move over Duran and Isaiah Stewart. And that just like that suits Cleveland's personnel better than it does Detroit's personnel. It's like more Levert for Detroit. It just suits them a little bit better. And you know, we'll see. The Knicks are waiting. Howard Beckton the hometown New York Knicks are waiting. And you know Detroit fans will tell you they swept the Knicks 3 0. I don't I put some stock into that. I'm not going to just dismiss it. And the Knicks have pretty much eaten the Cavs lunch for two or three years now. But as I've mentioned before, the last time they played, I thought the Cavs found something starting Dean Wade and putting Wade on Brunson Mobley on Cat and Jared Allen on Josh Hart. And the Knicks were like, oh, this is. Suddenly we have some resistance. But I think the Knicks will be favored and should be favored the way they're playing against either of these teams. And with that in mind, Howard Beck. I have a mea culpa. Are you ready for my mea culpa?
- [34:40]
B
Can't wait.
- [34:41]
A
I knew this would happen two or three months ago. I banged the gavel. I banged the gavel. Richard Jefferson was on the pod and I banged the gavel and I said, I'm calling it now. The Wolves won the catch raid. Julius Randle was playing well. Dante Givenchenjo was shooting the lights out. The Knicks were in the middle of their 17th cat existential crisis of the last two years. And I just said, look, given the salaries and the contracts going forward and how difficult cat's going to be to move if this goes badly, like I'm just calling it now. Wolves won the cat trade. There was a universe in which that take absolutely sustained. And at that time, I think it was the right take. Now Dante Jeevan Central's torn as Achilles. Julius Randle's having a really bad series against the spurs. And cat, it's all I look, I don't want to do the Knicks thing I did with Fred Katz, but it's all clicking. The Knicks found the ineffable undefinable. It. The chemistry, the vibe, whatever it is, they've got it. It's flowing, and he's a huge reason why on both ends of the floor, and they're going to be favorites to make the finals. And now it looks like, no, the Knicks won. The cat traded. It might. It might sway back again. But you. But if you w. If you make the finals and win the title, you win. Every trade. Every trade is retroactively graded in a. As Brian Winhorse likes to say. But that take has not aged well, and it. It was really dependent on the Knicks failing in the playoffs and the difficulty of them. The potentially failing of the playoffs and the Knicks, the difficulty of pivoting out of Cat's contract. But he's been unbelievable. And, like, it's just fascinating to see how that trade is sort of swung in the wind. But right now, you got to say, Knicks are winning the Cat trade again. And it was a fascinating trade when it happened, and it's still a fascinating trade, but Cat has been awesome. And that's my mea culpa.
- [36:25]
B
Howard Beckett, did you bang an actual gavel? Do you own a gavel?
- [36:29]
A
Don't have a gavel. Don't have a gavel. You know what? I was. You know what? I was gifted at the combine. I was gifted because I've mentioned my love of the lottery before and how I have the stopwatch, the signed stopwatch, which I should actually grab and show people on this podcast. Micah Day, the same guy who signed the stopwatch, doesn't work for the NBA anymore. He was at the combine for various reasons. He said, I have a gift for you. So. Oh, boy. He's like, only you can have this gift. This is only for you. It was ping pong ball number 11 from the Victor Wembanyama lottery in 2023. I have it in my bag over there. I don't think it ended up being relevant, but I have now also an official ping pong balls because I love the lottery so much.
- [37:07]
B
Fantastic speaking.
- [37:09]
A
Yeah, go ahead.
- [37:09]
B
I'm with you. I'm with you on that. Big, big lover of the lottery. And actually a little bit sad and sentimental already to think that maybe this was the last of its kind. And not knowing exactly. You've. You've already reported a bunch about this, about what it may or may not look like in the future with reform almost inevitably coming. But, yeah, the lottery, you know, it's. It's bizarre and absurd and stupid and. And theatrical and sometimes not exactly well thought they could have done better with the overall presentation this year, but I love it. I I love, I love everything about it in all of its absurdity. And I am already a little bit sad about what we may be losing in their zeal to reign in tanking.
- [37:54]
A
With that in mind, let's do a little let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about some off season storylines before we get back to the playoffs. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by fanduel and fanduel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. With more ways to build and more value every time you play. You can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment. From spreads to player points to threes and more. Build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. Head to FanDuel.com low to get started. FanDuel play your game 21 over in select states, 18 or over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut this episode is brought to you by State Farm. The best passers see every angle of the floor to make the perfect assist, and State Farm is no different. They know the game inside and out and look at every angle to help set you that fits your life and budget. Get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. You may have heard the Los Angeles Lakers have been eliminated from the playoffs by the Oklahoma City Thunder. By the way, kudos to the Lakers. They took Game four down to the wire after the first three games were essentially the same game three times in a row, and now they enter a fairly dramatic off season. Austin Reaves has a player option that he will turn down. He will be an unrestricted free agent. Rui Hachimura, who turned into Steph Curry for another playoff run, is also an unrestricted free agent. LeBron James is an unrestricted free agent. The Lakers are hiring two assistant general managers under Rob Pelinka as the Dodgers people begin their invasion and takeover of the franchise. And I will tell you this, if you have a smart assistant GM on your team, the Lakers may have already reached out to them. There have been people who have it's hard to say exactly who turned down what or who said no to who if it's like a you're fired, I quit situation. But there are definitely have been people who did not interview with the Lakers after being approached for an interview with the Lakers and either their choice or the Lakers choice unclear like what happened. But there's definitely wariness of is this a Dodgers hire or is it a Polinka hire? Am I tied to Polinka or am I not tied to Pelinka as the Dodgers stuff happens. So that's interesting. And yeah, much is being made about their potential $50 million in cap room and that does include Austin Reeves cap hold which is artificially low. So they could have if they renounce LeBron, if they renounce Rui, they could sit there with $50 million in cap room, three first round picks potentially to trade because I don't think free agency is necessarily going to be the way they fill that cap room if they have it. But if they if they don't renounce LeBron James's free agency rights and Rui's free agency rights and they could do that and still bring them back, it's possible they will not have cap room. So I am very interested to see where this heads and like clockwork upon the Lakers elimination Dave McMenamin did you read Dave McMenamon's fantastic story about LeBron and the Lakers yesterday?
- [41:21]
B
I did.
- [41:23]
A
I would like to congratulate Dave McMenamin for writing a story about LeBron's sometimes fraught relationship with the Lakers that begins with an anecdote about Rob Pelinka entering the locker room after a victory in late January in which I'm reading it again to make sure LeBron passed Kareem for the most victories by any player in NBA history was not aware that that had occurred. By the way, Luka Doncic topped 15000 points and Rui Hachimura reached 5, 000 points also was not aware of that. And and then everyone's happy and then comes the line. Still James celebratory mood did not last long and do you know why? It's because Rob Polinka gave the game ball to J.J. redick and LeBron stormed out of the locker room and he was not happy about it and felt the Lakers were quote trying to push him out the door during the Luca era and and all of that. And then there's other stuff in there about the Lakers having a front office exercise of trying to watch LeBron with blinders on during games and saying, how much would that guy really be worth in free agency, mid level whatever. And that getting back to the Lakers. I would like to congratulate David Benmond on the story. From this regard. Everybody looks petty and ridiculous and should be embarrassed about their participation and appearance in this story. Everyone looks ridiculous. LeBron looks ridiculous. Clutch look ridiculous. The Lakers are going to look ridiculous. Polinka looks ridiculous. I just. What's going to happen? I don't know, Howard. What's going to happen? Especially if Cleveland wins this series and takes themselves out as a potential LeBron suitor? If the Knicks make the finals and takes them. Take themselves out as of a potential LeBron, what kind of money is he going to want? Where is he playing next year? What's happening? Is he retiring? I don't think he's retiring.
- [43:09]
B
I don't think so either and I've never thought so. My God, there was so much to unpack, even within the first couple of graphs that you just alluded to of that story. A great piece by McManaman. Great job, Dave. I just so most wins in NBA history by a player I didn't even realize or think about as being a thing. Right? And LeBron has passed Kareem and others for so many other most things.
- [43:33]
A
What's he going to do with the game ball? How many game balls? When did game balls become so controversy? Did it like, remember the Giannis? The Giannis versus Rick Carlisle? One was delightful. My God.
- [43:46]
B
So, yeah, I mean, you've got so many accolades and so many game balls and so many trophies in your various trophy cases that could fill my Brooklyn apartment. I don't know what else there is there that you need or why it's important, but through a certain lens, I understand why. LeBron already kind of back on his heels for the last year. Plus ever since then they acquired Luca. Everything probably feels like a slight or an oversight at a certain point. And giving JJ Redick the game ball when LeBron's got only so many of these milestones and markers left and he's insecure about his future with the Lakers. Like, I sort of get it. But yes, as you already said, pettiness all the way around. I'm gonna go hyper hyperbolic for a couple of moments here on a couple of points that I don't actually think are hyperbole, but here we go. One is LeBron's free agency. I think might be the most delicate fraud free agency we've ever seen. I just cannot. I was trying to think of any. Anything that even approaches this when you factor in all of the different pieces of this, right, you have clearly put your future in the hands of Luka Doncic from the moment you made this trade that just fell out of the sky. LeBron James has gone longer and deeper into his career than anybody could have ever anticipated and at a level that nobody could have ever anticipated. And he's 41 years old and still, like, to the point of that exercise that you alluded to by Laker front office people, where they're saying, if this. If we just stripped away the identity, what would a player who looked like this and played like this and put up these numbers actually be worth in free agency? Like, I think that's an interesting, you know, intellectual discussion, and it's one you kind of have to have, because they have cap room that they need to figure out how to allocate, and they have to figure out how. How much are we moving firmly into the Luca era and how much are we still tied to the LeBron era? And listen, like, there were times this season, LeBron played incredibly as the second to third option. But I just. His free agency is as fraught as can possibly be because of who he is, where he is at this stage in his career, because of who the Lakers are, because of who Luka is. And so related to that, my second hyperbolic statement that I don't think is actually that hyperbolic, is this is an incredibly. This is the most critical summer for the Lakers, at least since the moment they got LeBron back in, whatever, 2018. It's their first real chance to reshape around Luca. There have been other windows to reshape around Luka, including last summer, but none that involved having vast amounts of cap room and the flexibility that comes with it. I agree with you. It's not going to be free agency spending specifically, necessarily. It could be acquiring guys into space, but they have to figure out how much of that space is actually going to Austin Reeves, cap hold or no cap hold, how much of it's going to LeBron, if at all. And then how much is left to do all the other stuff they need to do? Because, by the way, Zach, also not hyperbole. They got a ton of work to do to actually rebuild this team around Luca, and they've. They've gone a year and a half now without having really done that in any significant way. And when you have a guy like Luca, you're on the clock. If you're Luca, if you're Bill Duffy, his agent, you are watching closely. Or possibly verbalizing to the Lakers. Now's the time guys. Clock's ticking. Luke is in his prime. Like where are we? What's the direction here and how are you going to optimize this roster for our guy? And that leads to the final point here, which is, yeah, people around the league have really taken notice of all these like LinkedIn postings or whatever's going out there about front office jobs suddenly available in the Lakers front office after years of them being I think probably the thinnest or certainly among the thinnest front offices in the entire league. They're staffing up under the new Dodgers guys. Is that to support Rob Polinka? Is that eventually to replace Rob Polinka or they would they make that decision even now? I feel like this has been one of the least discussed potential storylines of the season. Is like, you know, Rob Palenka obviously didn't have a great relationship with, with Magic Johnson. Magic Johnson very closely tied to all of the Dodger people, including Lon Rosen, who's the new president of the Lakers. His the longtime conciliary to Magic Johnson going back literally decades to Magic's playing career. Lon's running the show. Magic and Rob Pelinka, not exactly best of pals. Like there's just a lot of stuff sitting below the surface simmering there that I think has been kind of, let's just say just simmering quietly.
- [48:21]
A
Number one, I, I guess I just can't understand what greatness feels like to be, to be great because to me it's like obviously absurd that LeBron would feel slighted about the team turning over the keys to Luka doncic like he's 14 years younger than you or whatever. Like of course that's gonna happen. Number two, to credit LeBron, he has played extraordinarily well in multiple different roles. He took a back seat, became a third option and absolutely thrived in the ideal role for him at this stage of his career. And then when Luca was hurt and Reeves was hurt, he took over again as like the Most, the most LeBron could summon of Peak Alpha LeBron and it was enough to win a first round playoff series and be like respectable against the Thunder. And I know Reeves came back for those games too. So huge credit to LeBron in that sense. But yes, the retooling around Luca is, is going to involve searching for more three and D wings. Marcus Smart as a player option. I think he, my guess is he'll opt out and try to find a multi year deal maybe with the Lakers who loved him. The center position remains in flux. I, I think the, the, the moment the Lakers season officially ended was game three with DeAndre Aiden airballed a floater and you could just feel the air come out of the building and everyone with the Lakers where they flash to
- [49:48]
B
JJ on the bench and he's just like exasperated. Or was that.
- [49:50]
A
That was when deandre Ayton failed to grab like four defensive rebounds in a row in the same game. But the floater airball was like just this moment where it was the Ralph Wiggum moment of you can pinpoint the moment his heart breaks in the Simpsons when Lisa breaks his heart. This, that was that. And I don't know who that rim running center is going to be. We know that they've checked in on all those guys over the years. They traded for Mark Williams and then they didn't trade for Mark Williams. They've been linked to Walker Kessler, who is not really a rim runner, I don't think and I would bet would be on the Jazz next season. So they got a lot of stuff to do. And look, I mean, I'm just. The safe money is they bring Reeves back. If they mess around and get too cute with it, they're going to go to the Nets and the Bulls and other teams that those teams are the, are the team. The, the leverage points for every agent now because they have tons of cap space or teams that could create maneuverability and be like, all right, this is. We're going to get a deal somewhere else. I still think he comes back to the Lakers and then you just have to like, how are we reaching Oklahoma City in San Antonio? And they feel very far away because you just played one of them in a series where you didn't have Luka Doncic, of course it's going to feel very far away. I, I kind of laughed at the whole like, well, this series laid bare how far the Lakers have to go and how much they have to change their team building philosophy. Really getting swept by the Thunder without Luka Doncic, who was. It turned out that that's what happened. Course it was going to happen. But if you have Luca, you got a shot. So I'm, I can't wait to see what happens and how they use that cap flexibility and their draft picks and what kind of players they go after. A name that I'm going to just bring up out of the blue and it's not. I have not heard this name in connection with the Lakers. I'm just saying this because I was at the combine, there's, there's some Trey Murphy the third buzz in terms of like, well, one of these teams in the lottery that has a lottery pick use that as. As the carrot to get Trey Murphy off of. Off of the Pelicans. So that's just a name that I'm going to throw out there. Any other. I have no idea what's going to happen with LeBron. It seemed for most of the season I ranked the options of where would LeBron would be as like somewhere else probably Cleveland maybe retire. The Lakers at times seem like the least. Like a return to the Lakers seems like the least likely outcome. Now I don't know at all. And it's Cleveland advances and New York advances and we know Golden State is sitting there and has looked at him before. They'll look at other stuff. I legit like maybe it's the Lakers again. They do have his son. I don't know. I mean the third option thing worked. Maybe that's just what it is. And you roll it back another year.
- [52:37]
B
You know, we're all terrible at tea leaf reading, but we do our best. But when Rich Paul issued his statement last summer, I thought, well, this is it, right? He's going into. Right. So it's his last year. I don't know if it's a farewell tour, if it's just a farewell tour with the Lakers or whatever, whatever this is. And then if you flash forward to, you know, LeBron comes back, plays really well in a supporting role, and then it's like, oh, wow, he's. He's really kind of meshed his game and he's kind of settled into this. I. I had written about this earlier in the season. Like, is it time for LeBron to do what Kareem did late in his career when he kind of like gave handed the keys to Magic Johnson. And it kind of felt like that happened organically this year. Credit to LeBron. And then when Luca and Austin Reeves are out, LeBron shows, Man, I. I could still. And you don't. You cannot rely on this for 82 games. You cannot build a team around LeBron at age 41. Let's not get crazy. But for a certain stretch of time there, LeBron James was, you know, number one, two and three on. On that team and doing a damn good job of it and showing he can still have that kind of impact. Be top 10 player type impact, top 15 wherever you want to put it. And somewhere, fine. Somewhere along the way. Somewhere along the way there, I think I talked myself into the. Well, maybe he does stay. Forget all of the other chatter and all the, you know, feelings of being, you know, you're on Lucas timeline, not mine. All that stuff, it looked okay and then things end the way they end. And we read Dave McMenamin story and it's like, no, I'm back to where I was probably last summer, which is like, it's kind of hard to see them continuing. I have no intel on this. I'm just going to say my gut all along has been. And this is because, as you know, I'm a hopeless sentimentalist and I just love the idea of this. LeBron with the Warriors. Steve Kerr is re upped. LeBron go play with Steph. They love playing together. I don't know that that one feels like. And, and to the point of earlier discussion with the. The more successful the Cavs are, the less it feels like that reunion makes sense. And the Laker thing is just insanely
- [54:31]
A
fraught, I gotta tell you. LeBron on the Warriors. I might. Maybe I'm just, maybe I'm just a melancholy person. It feels a little gross to me. It feels a little more like a reality TV show than a good idea for building an NBA team in 2026. I don't think, I don't want. I don't know. Well, I'd adapt. I'd adapt. I'd grow up and adapt. I'm adaptable. I don't, I don't like it sometimes doesn't sit right with me. A couple other off season items from the combine, number one, Eric Name and Shams both rap. Shams both reported the Bucks are open for business. Listening to Giannis trade offers, obviously that was probably already known, but it's now officially out there and it's going to be really interesting because I do think the Bucks have crossed the Rubicon of like, if he doesn't sign this extension or indicates that he's not going to, we would prefer to trade him and we would like to get it done before the draft. They have the 10th pick in the draft. What else could they acquire, you know, in this particular draft and draft picks going forward, including their own picks. But it's just going to be like, you know, I had, I had breakfast with an agent, a very high powered agent the other day and he was like, I'm still betting no trade, I'm betting no trade. And I was like, really? And he said, just go through the exercise. Who has enough? Who has enough stuff and would be good enough with Giannis to contend right away and the point was, if New York makes the Finals, are they really. That was his preferred destination, reportedly, according to Shams. And I believe that's right. Are they really shaking up a Finals team to do this? If Cleveland advances another round, does that take like the potential Mobley or whatever deal theoretically off the table? And then, you know, I think Miami was the closest to maybe getting a final phone call before the trade deadline, before the Bucks pulled the plug. It's like they have the, what did they end up with, the 13th pick or the 14th pick? They didn't move up. Like, is all their stuff enough for Milwaukee? Are they going, are they going to settle for that? Brooklyn has a ton of stuff. You cannot trade for Giannis. If you're Brooklyn, if you don't have a plan to get a second guy in the door immediately, it can't be like, wait for the trade deadline. It can't be wait for next offseason. It has to be now. And then you're like, well, the warriors have some stuff. They got all their picks. They could trade some picks and some money. The Lakers have all this, like, they can trade some picks and sign and trade Austin Reeves maybe or something, I don't know. The Clippers got the fifth pick. A couple people floated that way. They packaged the fifth pick and all their expirings. I'm like, that's not getting you. Honest, I don't. They're not doing that for the fifth pick. I don't think so. It's like, I don't, I, I, I don't really even know what's gonna happen. I, I, I'm expecting him to be traded because once the toothpaste is this far out of the tube and at this point you've got squeezed all the tubes, there's toothpaste all over the wall. You've gone through an entire travel six pack of toothpastes. But I don't know, man, where, like, I don't know where you'd expect them to go if you had to just take a moonshot on it, what you would do. But it's, it's gonna be fun.
- [57:34]
B
Yeah. No, I feel like it's funny. So the Bucks were here very, very late in the season in Brooklyn, maybe it was the last week of the season, really. And I walked into the press room, I saw the Bucks beat Riders. They're busily. There was like five buck stories going on simultaneously that day, and they're very.
- [57:53]
A
Oh, yeah, that's right. It snuck, it snuck under the radar this year, this week, that The. What happened? The NBA concluded it's, it's investigation into whether the. Whatever was going on, and nothing happened with Giannis's availability. Okay.
- [58:05]
B
I mean, and so I said, I said, what's up, guys? I said, you're almost done. It's. The nightmare's almost over because, you know, the season's almost over. And besides that, the Giannis thing, whatever the saga, whatever this conclusion is, it's coming to a head. And they, they, they were all like, they just gave me this look of disdain, like, it's not, it's not over. It's never ending. And, and on a serious note, in talking to them and other people around the Bucks traveling party, because I kept making the same joke, like, don't worry, guys, it's. It's almost over. You get to, to, you know, exhale for a bit here. I think there really was this feeling, at least at that time of ambiguity, of, like, yeah, maybe it's over, maybe it's not. And maybe he, he does resign and we're still on this roller coaster of, of the, of just his, his ambivalent feelings about the organization and where they're heading and his, you know, the supporting cast. I don't think that that's going to be the case. I, like, I, I feel like we are way beyond that. To your point, toothpaste already everywhere. And ownership has already drawn the line in the sand publicly. Ownership that doesn't talk very often has said, like, yeah, we need to know, is he signing the extension that he can't sign until October anyway, but he needs to tell us sooner than later. And if, and if he's not going to be signing the extension, then we got to move on. And that's the practical, correct thing to do. And besides that, the signs coming from Giannis himself for quite a while here have been pretty clear. If I can't win a championship in Milwaukee, I want the chance to try to pursue championships somewhere where I can. I don't know where that is either, Zach. I don't know which of these potential suitors out there makes sense, but we're gonna know pretty soon. This, this stuff's getting resolved in the next, like, I don't know, six to seven weeks probably. I, I don't think this is going to be one of those Dwight Howard traded in mid August or Carl Anthony Towns traded out of the blue in September. I think we're going to get a Giannis resolution sooner than later here.
- [60:01]
A
A couple other teams that should be mentioned, just to mention them, Portland, because they have the Bucks picks. I don't think Giannis is going to Portland. I do like more the more I think about it. The I like my three team trade idea of Jalen Brown to Portland, Giannis to Boston picks galore and all their stuff to the Bucks. But I don't know if the Celtics really have an appetite to break up the Jays. And the greatest twitch stream I've ever seen, the Jalen Brown twitch stream. Toronto has all their picks and swaps and all that and have long been sort of vaguely tied to Giannis when Messiah Jiri was there. Obviously Messiah's in Dallas now. I just don't see any deal that Milwaukee is taking that doesn't include Scotty Barnes and they're not getting Scotty Barnes. Chicago don't see it and you know Boston the straight up Jalen Brown for Giannis deal with Boston sending other stuff, you know makes you could certainly that makes some sense for both teams. I think it makes less I'm a little lower on that deal for the Bucks than the consensus. It's a very, it's a stay relevant deal and maybe that's okay. So we, we shall see. But Cleveland and New York meeting in the conference finals, if that's indeed what happens, kind of complicates the landscape a little bit and cracks the door open for some of these teams who maybe don't have quite enough on paper to do it. If you just absolutely forced me to call a moonshot and be like name a team like you have. You absolutely have to bet blindly name a team. I think I would pick Miami but obviously it's just a blind, you know, just a blind guess at this point.
- [61:38]
B
Should you mentioned Messiah, Jiri and ties between Messiah and Giannis? Should we put Dallas on this list now that Messiah is running the show there?
- [61:45]
A
I mean they have the number nine pick with they finished ninth. I think they got nine. They have no draft capital and, and they're, they're out a couple other picks. I, I, I would if I'm a psi. I'm going in there and I'm taking my time and, and I'm just seeing what I have in Cooper Flag and Kyrie Irving and all that. All right, let's take another quick break. We'll do a little bit more offseason stuff. And then quickly on Spurs Wolves. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. One minute the crowd's cheering, the next the scoreboard flips. Sports are full of surprises and life isn't much different. That's where State Farm comes in with their easy to use digital tools and over 19,000 local agents who can help you call the right play. Because when you know someone's ready to assist, you have the confidence to take on the unpredictable. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there with the assistance. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Price and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video generation built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit and experiment fast because the asks aren't getting smaller and the timelines. Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more@adobe.com Firefly Fly all right, are you ready for some schmoozing and boozing stuff from the combine?
- [63:09]
B
Can't wait.
- [63:10]
A
Okay. As you know, I am not a draft guy and am not. I'll watch, I'll, I'll do my YouTube due diligence shortly. But I obviously just spent four straight days talking to people non stop. It's, it's an interesting draft. On the one hand, everyone pretty much agrees that the safest bet of how the top four unfolds is Washington makes the safe pick of DeBance of 1. Utah grabs Peterson 2. Memphis with a hole on the front line after trading Triple J grabs Cam Boozer and then Chicago does back flips and just takes Caleb Wilson, probably the safe bet. Yeah, I will say you can find. I don't, I don't think any of those front offices are unified on who they should take at that spot. I think there's gonna be healthy debates within every front office. You can find front office people across the league who will whisper to you that they would take Caleb Wilson number one. And I'm talking like not random, like eighth on the totem pole. Front office guys, you could find front office guys who would be like, you know what? If I had my druthers, I would take Cam Boozer number one. And so I'm just interested. Just like, I don't think Washington has decided who they're taking. I don't think, you know, there's this expectation that because Debancer has been so closely tied to Ryan Smith and BYU and Utah Prep that the Jazz will make a Godfather offer to move up one spot. I don't think that's happening. They, they might make an offer and obviously like Washington really wanted Ace Bailey, who's on the Jazz now, so could you offer like number two and Ace Bailey to move up one spot. I guess. I, I know the Angels well enough in their track record well enough to know that Danny Ainge is not there to do Ryan Smith's bidding and Austin Ange is not there to do Ryan Smith's bidding. If they think whoever is as good, like, if they think Peterson's as good as the Bansa and they're thrilled to have him, they're just going to be like, we'll take whoever comes to us, so we'll see what happens with that. By the way, a lot of people have said to me, like a man, Ace Bailey, was he the biggest loser of the lottery? And it's because, you know, the Jazz have four starting spots pretty much in Penn and Keonte George and assuming they re sign Kessler, the three big guys marketing Triple J and Kessler and they could pick the fifth guy from this draft. I'm like, you know, Ace Bailey's like, young man. Just, he's, I thought he had a really nice rookie year. If he has to come off the bench and play 25 minutes for a good team, it's think really a loser in all of this. Then after those four, there's a, I, I met a lot of, met with a lot of scouts who were like, who rejected the idea that it's a four player draft and there's a giant chasm between number four and all the guards that come after that. And then I met a lot of scouts who were like, no, there's, there's a chasm. So there's some division there. A lot of buzz about Keaton Wagler and the Clippers at five from that Indiana pick. What a week for the Indiana Pacers. Oh my God. Stay off Twitter, everybody. It makes sense. He's a big guard. They already have a small guard. The Clippers love big guards. And then after that, you got Brooklyn and Sacramento in polar opposite situations. Brooklyn at number six, has a thousand guards and they're in a range where there's just guards, guards, guards. Maybe they just take buries. Who's not the. Not a point guard? And the Kings have no point guards and they're just like, all right, we fell to seven, but there's just point guards all over the place. So it's, that's my, that's my draft. It's my draft stuff. Any, any thoughts?
- [66:48]
B
Nothing really on the draft and all of that. It was like, you know, you covered this well with Gavoni the other day. I listened to that. It was just such a wild, it was a potential. It was going to be a potentially wild lottery. It was almost like less wild than expected in some ways, but just some of the shocks, including the Pacer thing and the Clippers, by the way, on that. If there's one takeaway from the lottery that has nothing to do with the draft or talent or who fits where and all that stuff, it's this. This should stand as the final case that there are no conspiracies, there is no rigging. Shout out to Bill. There is no karma. The basketball gods are either dead or, or just incredibly mischievous. I don't know, because the way that unfolded, I just think you cannot possibly believe in lottery karma. Basketball gods. Conspiracies are rigging. None of all those things just went right out the fucking window.
- [67:44]
A
The other thing that it confirmed for me is that the lottery drives people insane. Like, it makes smart. It breaks smart people's brains.
- [67:53]
B
Yeah.
- [67:54]
A
For Kevin Pritchard to tweet, that was like, unfathomable to me. You were surprised that a 50, 50 chance went against you. Like, it's one thing to, to like, be hurt, and that's, that's a gutshot, there's no question. But you can't be like, surprised that a 50, 50 shot went again. And poor a Vita Zubots now is like, wait, are you apologizing for trading for me? Like, and I did meet people who were like, you know, what they could have done is if that pick is if you, you condition to trade, like, if the pick is five or six, then you don't get a future first round pick.
- [68:30]
B
That.
- [68:30]
A
It's just that pick for Zubots, that's pretty fair. Now they still have a future. Whatever. I mean, I just. And then, and then I mentioned before that Ryan Smith was like, furious last year that the Jazz didn't move up and get the number one pick or move up at all. I'm like, no, you know what? Like, your entire front office has been telling you the entire year what happened was the most likely thing that was going to happen. And I'll tell you, there's always one guy in the lottery room whose team doesn't move up or moves down in the drawing room. And you just kind of can tell by the way they're sitting and looking and staring. They're like, I don't, I don't think it's a good idea to interview this guy right now and like, go try Josiah for the Nets. Was. Was not. Was not approachable after the lottery. Did not. Did not look approachable. So we'll see what the. And we'll see what the Nets do. I mean, this is two straight years where the Nets, year one, Jordy, wins too many games and they end up picking eighth and they have five first round picks. They use all of them. Year two, they like try to kind of pull the rug out and they still end up picking sixth. And okay, yeah,
- [69:35]
B
I will say with regard to Kevin Pritchard and that statement, I'll defend the intent, the content.
- [69:43]
A
You want to assuage your fans and be like, I like, you know, don't, don't be mad. We tried. Like, this is, this happened.
- [69:49]
B
It's the right thing to be accountable. I don't know that I want to go to the point of an actual apology, but. But I'm okay with it. Like the, the. I didn't think this was going to happen. When the odds say it's a fucking coin flip. Yeah, that's part of it.
- [70:03]
A
Not great.
- [70:03]
B
Not, not great. But I, I appreciate that he is holding himself accountable and wants to directly address the fans on that. By the way, shout out to Kevin Pritchard for being to my recollection of this. And I've cited this in print several times and nobody's said otherwise. He is the coiner of the really important phrase of the last 15 years, the treadmill of mediocrity. Something that he said at a Sloan conference that you and I were probably both at way back in the day.
- [70:31]
A
I thought you were going to say he's the only GM who's active on Twitter. And I was like, are we including burner accounts or no?
- [70:39]
B
Yeah, yeah. Somebody. Somebody else who. GM who was once very active on Twitter, who's not anymore. Who. I don't know if we're getting to that particular news item.
- [70:50]
A
What news item? What am I. Yes, we will get to that now. Actually, that's next on my off season docket. The Philadelphia Sixers have fired Daryl Morey as president of basketball operations. They appear to have retained the rest of Daryl Morey's staff, including Elton Brand, and they also retain Nick Nurse. So the unusual sort of the coach stays, the GM goes as the new top guy doesn't get to pick his own coach, at least off the top. And Daryl Morey is. I don't know how he did it. I guess by being a pioneer of some kind. Like any news item involving Daryl is just more explosive than it is for almost any executive in any sport anywhere. Like most people are like, oh, GM got fired. Well, that seems to happen a lot. If the Mets fired David Stearns today, there'd be like a Mets fan outcry, but it's like, okay, that happens. Daryl More. It's like a huge international story that he gets that he gets fired. Yeah. I'll just leave it to you. Like, what was, what was your take on the events in Philly? What led to this? Is it the right decision? I'll just. You're. I know you're writing a column on it for the ringer.com so go ahead.
- [71:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of different ways to look at this. I will say I was a little surprised that they made this move and that they made this move. Now. I get it. It was a really grisly ending. Exacerbated. And I think definitely exacerbated. And I think even though this should not play into a decision like this, absolutely exacerbated by the fact that Knicks fans colonized their arena for games three and especially four turn Philadelphia into like the sixth Borough. I don't think, like anybody's probably walking out of there clear headed about the direction of anything. And it's. I almost feel like this was like someone had to pay the price. This is not. I'm not saying that there was nothing to criticize Domore's term about. I'm not saying whether it's justified or unjustified. I'm just saying I do think that the way this ended clouded everything. And you only had to roll back the calendar by about 10 days where they were like the great Cinderella story, having knocked out the Celtics and come back from a 3 to 1 deficit, something that only a handful of teams had ever done.
- [73:01]
A
And then. And then Embiid gets hurt again.
- [73:03]
B
And then gets hurt again. To that point, you, you tell me if I'm wrong on this. Like the, the most criticized decisions of Daryl's time in Philly would be someone in whatever order. I think the Embiid extension and the Paul George contract, those are like kind of probably bullet points one and two because those are two albatross contracts right now for that franchise. And then more recently, I guess the McCain trade and an overall lack of depth. Am I missing anything major in the Daryl Morey indictment from disgruntled Sixer fans?
- [73:41]
A
Isaiah Joe, I think would be. Would be one that was nitpicked. And honestly, like, that was. That was preemptively because there was. I don't remember exactly the details, but they had to cut someone or they were going. It was clear they were going to cut someone because either they had 16 at camp or they had wanted to get down to 15 or 14 rather. And there was a debate about who it should be. And there were Sixers writers and fans and people like me being like, it shouldn't be Isaiah Joe. That guy can play. And then it was Isaiah Joe. I, I do look in talking to people around the combine, this, this was not a surprise. Like this had been building. Everyone there was talking about it for 36 hours before it happened.
- [74:17]
B
Yeah, but important because he wasn't there. Right?
- [74:20]
A
He wasn't there. And I do think the optics mattered and I think the optics included McCain playing well against the Lakers. And Daryl just can't help himself in some of his press conferences where he said, yeah, I think we sold high. Like he just shouldn't just, just be more polite than that. And like, I appreciate the honesty and I guess I should appreciate the honesty. But when you say that and a player becomes a key contributor on the best team in the NBA in the playoffs now he wasn't in the first round, but in the second round he was, it's not going to look great. And I do think the Knicks invasion mattered. And I had one person ask me like, would he, would this have happened to your point about how, how quickly it changed. They beat Boston, they exercised the demons in that series, come back from 3:1. Would this have happened if it was 4:1 Knicks and game 5 was a competitive game? Like, is it just how bad it ended? And I maybe on the Paul George and Embiid things. Look, I liked the Paul George signing for the Clippers in part because if you have Embiid, you just need to do everything you can to win now and the future. And I, and I thought they would fit. Well, he's been less available and less productive and he was coming off a great season too. And, and most of the reviews of that signing were favorable and people were like really being like, what is what the Clippers are just giving up. And it turned out the Clippers were fine. And I was wrong about that one. Embiid's extension has been mischaracterized a little bit. It's constantly called the three year extension was actually a two year extension because he was already under contract for he had a player option for 26, 27 next season, which, spoiler alert, Joel Embiid's going to opt into any player option that he has given his health issues and he opted out of that as part of a three year contract. So it's really only two years were tacked on. And like I don't remember hearing seeing getting Third or fourth hand, wind of Josh Harris pounding his fist on the table being like, these things are bad ideas. In fact, Josh Harris was sitting next to Joel Embiid during their little signing ceremony for Instagram when they tweet about, oh, great, the Joel Embiid is signing this extension. So, like, I don't, you know, was he, was he out? And for now, Bill, to his credit, was out in front of the Embiid thing. He's like, I wouldn't have done this. I would have traded him right away to the Knicks. That's like, I was the. I wasn't the opposite. I was like, this is just kind of what you do with franchise players, because if you don't do it, it's over. Like, if you don't sign Joel and he's a year and a half removed from winning MVP or barely. Not even, actually.
- [76:55]
B
Yeah.
- [76:55]
A
And I was like, this is just kind of what you do. And obviously it's been a disaster. And Bill was right. But if you say no to that and you say no to Paul George, you're just doing a complete U turn pivot. And maybe that's what they should have done. And luckily for them, they kind of ended up doing anyway because the lottery gods gave them Vijay Edgecomb and they made the right pick on that, just like they made the right pick on Maxi. I think overall, if you spin the Simmons to Harden, Harden for draft capital series of transactions, I think they came out okay in that and the game that. I will always go back to that. We don't talk about this series much anymore. It's three years ago when they were up 32 against Boston, and James Harden had actually had two of the best clutch moments of his career in that series. I believe it was games one and four and they had a home game for game six. They lost that game by nine. Boston rallied in the fourth quarter to win that game. That's the game you look back on, you're like, James was playing pretty well. Joel was playing pretty well. He won the MVP that year. We had a chance at home to go the conference finals and we couldn't close it. And then we just get absolutely rolled in game seven. It's a total no show by Embiid. It's a total no show by Harden. And Jason Tatum has 50 something points that game. Maybe it was just all over that game. And, and, but, you know, I, look, I understand the decision. Those contracts are awful. They're unlike Embiid's. Contract is obviously unmovable. The McCain thing looks bad. I think Daryl's a good GM. Obviously he's never won a title and I'm interested to see who they hire. I think the record in Philly is, is checkered. But I, I would like to see what the other course of action not taken would, would have looked like, I guess.
- [78:38]
B
Agreed. I think Daryl is a very good gm. I think he's going to be running another team again in this league. Maybe he takes a year off this time. He, he had said he intended to do that the first time when he left Houston. And then Philly came calling. We're gonna, we're gonna see him again. I, There are teams right now I think that could use him, but that's not, I'm not gonna go down that road. I don't think the Sixers have a GM problem. They don't have a leadership problem. They have a Joel Embiid problem.
- [79:09]
A
They might have, they might have an ownership problem too.
- [79:12]
B
They may have an ownership problem. But, you know, could you. Is it fair to say that Daryl, in giving that extension to Joelle, and again, yes, it was a two year extension, not three. Does that exacerbate the Joel Embiid problem? Like, sure, but as you just said, and I would make the same point, like, find me the top 10 player. And he's not top 10 right now, but he did sign that extension. One MVP in 2023 signed the extension 2024. Find me a superstar in this league who was a recent MVP in his prime, who was denied a max extension. Like, it doesn't happen politically, just vibes wise. Everything. You can't, you can't do that. So also, not for nothing, I believe that the Embiid extension was part of also getting Embiid on board with then the pursuit of Paul George. And you can criticize that one. But again, as you pointed out, people didn't really criticize the Paul George deal at the time. They thought, wow, what? The best free agent on the market. They got a guy who's, who's, you know, a perennial all star, sure, late in his career. But, and I do think people, Bill included, had red flagged those at the time, saying these could come back to haunt you. And they have. But the biggest thing holding the Sixers back for the last however many years is that Joel Embiid can't stay healthy, period. Like, that's their biggest problem. And if I wave the magic wand right now, Zach and I undid all the things that you and I just talked about. The Embiid extensions, the Paul George deal, the McCain trade, the Isaiah Joe thing, undo all of that magically, they still get smoked by the Knicks in the second round. We're in the same place. Like, I. Sure there's some other roads not taken here, but the Paul George. If you didn't sign Paul George, it was going to be like, like DeMar DeRozan or KCP or somebody. Like, there weren't, like, great fallback options that summer, as I recall. I wrote about it at the time. I haven't reread it. But, like, there weren't great fallback positions. So, like, where else was that money going to go? How else were they upgrading the roster there? And yeah, lack of depth hurt them in that series. But, like, I'm sorry, McCain wasn't changing the outcome of that series, and no combination of McCain and Isaiah Joe was changing the outcome of that series.
- [81:23]
A
I think you made the counter argument for the Embiid extension while making the argument for the Embiid extension. And, and the argument is like, the lesson of these kinds of deals is maybe you just, I mean, like, I can't believe I'm saying this about Daryl Morey. You just got to be colder. Like, you just. You just have to be colder. And Joel Embiid being an injury risk was the opposite of news to anyone. His first contract extension and all those, like, partial guarantees, non guarantees, injury, whatever guarantees. And the Sixers had his medical records on hand. They know more about him than the rest of us do. And, and maybe, maybe, who knows? Like, if Josh Harris tells you no, we're signing him to an extension. It's your job as a gm, if you believe it, to not to. To convince him otherwise. And clearly they should have been colder. But the cold road is. Is pain. It's pain. It's eating a lot of shit from your fans who love Joel Embiid. And it's immediate DEFCON 1 drama. By the way, we're now dropping Cat. We're at CAVSCON 3 right now. Currently, we are at CAVSCON 1. Then we dropped it to CAVSCON 2. And now with them ahead, we're still at CAPSCON 3. It's hard for them to get lower than that.
- [82:33]
B
I will just put one quick Josh Harris note on this, too. And I understand there were other remedies, but the GM is also not the one who wakes up one morning and decides, I'm going to get rid of a good player to duck the tax. Because I like ducking the tax. That's an ownership directive. Were there other ways to accomplish that? Probably I just want to put that under the head. The, the. The Harris category as well or the
- [82:52]
A
ownership category with these. It. It's similar to. I mean, once you get into these contracts that are at. And it's. It's one of. I think flaws may be too strong a word because this is a unique case of a guy whose health history was just terrifying from day one. But like once you get into the range that like Jaylen Brown is in right now, money wise and you're Giannis even, and then you get. The next extension is coming like you. Because the NBA is a salary cap league and does not offer any relief. Even if it's a homegrown guy that you drafted that's on a supermax like you detects the apron, you get nothing, no relief for any of that. I think you should. Personally, if it's a homegrown guy on a max like Jalen Brown, I think there should be some relief because I just don't like the. The notion in my gut of it's bad for me to keep this homegrown star on my team that my fans love. It's bad. It's a bad thing. It should not. No part of it should be that bad. You just got to be colder. Like you just. The rule with the rules. You just got to be colder. And they weren't cold and Bill called it out right away and I was like unwilling to be that cold because it just seems unrealistic to me. But in hindsight they should have been okay. Daryl Moore's out. Nerds cry. Let's talk quickly about Spurs Wolves, which has been a weird series marked by a flying elbow by Victor to Nas Reed. It's three two, Spurs. Spurs won game five at home going away outstanding second half performances from the two young guards, Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper, just absolutely terrifying. The idea of these three guys, Vic and those two playing together is just beyond terrifying. I picked spurs in six. I am going to predict that the spurs close it out in six, if only because they have two blowout wins and one close win. And both the Wolves wins have been very close, one of which included Victor being ejected in the second quarter. And the Wolves are just like. Ant is clearly not 100%. He can access some. You can access Ant powers for parts of games, but not all games. Divincenzo's hurt. It's just, it's. They're thin and they're facing a young, feisty, fast opponent and they have some pathways that they can maybe try to get to. And I'm not saying they're not going to win game six. I mean, I would predict the spurs win, but the Wolves have proven they're never out of a series. Like, this is a tough, resilient team. They need a lot more from Julius Randle than they're getting. And maybe they get it in game six. Maybe they get a crazy IO game. He's dealing with some, some bumps and bruises. He was out a game initially, early in the series. I don't know. Any, any thoughts on. Any thoughts on this one? Are we, are we destined to get dispersed under conference finals?
- [85:38]
B
I feel like we are. I always felt like we were on that path and it certainly became the case or more, you know, stronger possibility of that once there was the Ant injury and the DiVincenzo, you know, season ending injury and the IO stuff and whatever. And I just keep wondering, like, even though I think the spurs were the ones destined to win this series, in an alternate universe where the Wolves are at full strength, what does this look like? It'd be a lot of fun. It's been fun anyway.
- [86:05]
A
Harder to, Harder to throw a million bodies at Ant when you have Dante DiVincenzo shooting on the floor. I'm not saying it wouldn't work because it's been a smart strategy. It's, it's. They have just not let Ant get in any kind of pick and roll rhythm with Gobert, who had a terrible game in game five. Yeah, but it's. At least there's a little more risk to it.
- [86:23]
B
Yeah, I, I was looking this up. The spurs, you know, they've only lost three games in the playoffs period, by a combined 10 points. And they all coincide with Wemby things. Wemby weird things. So the game he's knocked out, gets the concussion against Portland, they lose the game. He goes 5 for 17 against the Wolves in, in game one. He was 0 for 8 on threes in that one. So even that one, like, you could say, oh, well, you know, go Bear. And those guys did a great job. Just defensive. Yeah, sure. But like, he's not usually over eight on threes. And those are not shots you can actually even defend. So that was another like just kind of an anomalous Wemby game. And then the last one was, you know, the flagrant two ejection. And so like, those are the three games they've lost in the playoffs. Other than that, they've looked incredible. Like, they just, you know, and so I do expect them to close it out against the Wolves. I wish Minnesota was at Full strength. Speaking of trades, and I think you addressed this one recently too, but like the roller coaster ride that we've all had on the Go Bear trade, and I think you declared it the other day, like, yeah, they absolutely not. Whether or not was not a winner, lost the trade. It was a good trade.
- [87:28]
A
It worked. They got what, they got what they wanted out of it.
- [87:32]
B
Yes. Like, you know, they're, they're right now, you know, two wins away from what would be a third straight trip to the conference finals. And I don't think it's going to happen, but they've been one of the best teams in the west for, you know, more than a few minutes here. And that's, you know, that's the, I'm not gonna say it's the most you can ask for. You want championships, you want a chance to be in the mix for a three to five year run in an era when nothing lasts three to five years in the NBA.
- [88:02]
A
Agreed. And you know, like, the Wolves were right there with the Kings in like playoff droughts. This is just a raging success in the like in, in any sense. Yeah, I mean, look, I, they've, they've earned the benefit of the doubt with their toughness. Like, could they force a game seven? Absolutely. Could they win a game seven? Sure. I personally would be pretty surprised, but it's certainly possible. Spurs are plus 56 in 156 minutes with WEMBY on the floor in the series, his last two non ejection games have been just masterpiece games. And you know that o of I mentioned before, like, you learn about yourself a little bit in this, in these series, teams have to like pivot into uncomfortable positions or whatever. That first game he shoots all the threes and he says afterwards, like, I just some, something to the effect of like, I just, you know, I got off track a little bit. I didn't feel the game the right way. And since then he's just been so determined to direct everything at the basket, both as a screener and they're using him as a screener more in the pick and roll than ever. And just as. Yeah, okay, Rudy, like, you're giving me a little space. I'm gonna eat up the space. And yeah, you're big and you're tough and you're physical and you're gonna meet me 10ft from the rim and it's not going to be an easy shot. It's not going to be comfortable. But I got really long arms and I can find ways around you and you might foul me. And he's, he's just. Everything has been forceful and that's the, that's. That's the way he needs to play. And, you know, we'll see from Randall. Like, you know, it's. They just need more from him, particularly when he is. They. They were guarding him. They're guarding him with small guys, he can get any switch he wants. And I just, I'm so fascinated by the. Gobert's out of the game, Wemby's in the game moments. And Minnesota seems to like that. Minnesota seems to like how the floor looks when it's not Gobert versus Wemby, when Wemby's playing his zone or playing on McDaniels. And in, in game five, they just, for the first time in the series, the spurs just said, try guarding Randall and we'll see how it goes. And it wasn't all the time. Sometimes he would still stand on the baseline and play his own. And the Wolves have ways to manipulate the floor with their shooting against that. But it was interesting to see them just play the, Just, just guard Julius. And when they put Julius into pick and roll, it was all of a sudden this monster is there with his giant arms guarding it two on two, which I thought was interesting. So. And if, if indeed the Wolves wrap it up, two things happen.
- [90:28]
B
The spurs wrap it up.
- [90:30]
A
Yeah, I'm sorry. If the spurs wrap it up, two things happen. Spurs, Thunder. Oh, boy. First of many, hopefully and obviously four one season series. Spurs, some spiciness in that one. Shea versus Victor, all of that. And the Wolves like sneaky, interesting off season. Spotrek lists Anthony Edwards as extension eligible in the off season. IO's a free agent and they have, you know, some, some tax issues to deal with. Mike Conley is a free agent. And if that, if that matters. And they were obviously on the, in the Giannis universe at the trade deadline. I was never really clear to me how they were going to acquire the assets that were. Were going to be needed to get him, but I don't know. Just. Just saying. Howard Beck.
- [91:22]
B
Yeah, fascinating off season indeed. And I hate that we're having to prematurely bury them, but it does feel
- [91:30]
A
like this is what you have to think about. They're down three, two. They could absolutely win. It's Thursday. Like, who knows when we're going to record again.
- [91:38]
B
Yeah, no, I, I hate to do the thing where we look ahead too soon, but we've been doing this for, you know, months already. Spurs versus Thunder is going to be an absolute barn burner. Assuming that that's the outcome and can't wait. It's going to be incredible. Yeah, I have, I have no other deep thoughts on that at the moment.
- [92:02]
A
Let's end obviously on a horrible somber note. Just a dreadful week of NBA news. The Brandon Clark passing away at age 29 rippled through Chicago just before it was tweeted. And you could just see everyone as they found out just the complete shock of how, why and we'll learn about it. But just base level, like seemed like a great guy. He came on my podcast once. He was delightful. Teammates loved him. Dealt with a ton of injuries over the last couple years and whatever, whatever happened at like just age 29, it's just unfathomable. And Jason Collins, the first openly gay NBA player, active NBA player and I believe the first openly gay US major sport professional active athlete passed away from brain cancer this week. I know you interact. You interviewed him I think when he came out and then he played a little bit for the Nets after that. Obviously thoughts to the Clark and Collins families. You know, Jaren is his twin brother is a coach in the league now. Any, I mean I, I, these are things that are just like what, what am I going to say? Right. But I you, you at you at least like had a sit down with or an interview with Jason when he came out reflecting on like what this meant as a, as sort of a trailblazer.
- [93:25]
B
Yeah, yeah. Just shocking awful. And heart goes out to everybody and the families of and everybody associated with teammates of everybody of, of Brandon Clark and, and Jason Collins just gut punches the other day and the Jason Collins one we knew was coming because to you know, he was very bravely fighting this battle publicly. And I think it was an as told to with our friend Ramona Shelburne from some months ago where he disclosed to the public what he was going through with the brain cancer. And so you know, you knew it was coming but it's still, it's still shocking and soft and awful at the moment it happens. He, he came out on the COVID of Sports Illustrated back in, in 2013. That was with the, with Franz Lids I believe as the writer. And a couple months later I got him on the phone. I was at the New York Times at the time just to talk about because when he came out he was a free agent. He had just, he had most recently played for the Wizards. So he got to, to be classified as the first active NBA player to come out while active. But he was not, he was not signed. And so one of the things that was really unclear at the time was like, what is this, what is this moment really going to mean in terms of being a trailblazer and maybe smashing this barrier so that others can, can be honest about who they are while playing in the league and not have to worry about backlash and not have to worry about effects on locker rooms. Like, does it mean anything if he doesn't actually get on a roster again? So that was the conversation we had. I think it was like, July of 2013, when he was still unsigned. This is before he had signed with the Nets. I had to go back and look it up and, and, you know, Jason, I don't, I didn't know him well, but, but like, Jason Collins, being the, the classy and very thoughtful and intelligent individual he was, was basically, he was like, very philosophical about it. But I also had spoke with others who were advocates saying, like, no, it absolutely matters if he doesn't get signed like that. It'll feel like, like this, like the, the rug gets pulled out from under this moment. So it was really important that somebody signed him and the Nets did, and he played and everything was fine, you know, and, and it also did give the gravity to the moment, I think, that Jason had earned for was really important that that happened. And, and then I'll just say, to piggyback on something that Charles alluded to on Inside the NBA last night, I just, and I've thought of this many times since then because it's been, whatever, 13 years, no one else has, has been able to come out in the NBA. There's no question there are gay NBA players. And like, that's always, always been known and in the other major sports as well. And you hope, you know, broadly speaking, you know, for society, that when somebody is, is the trailblazer, that this is going to open the door for others to be able to do the same. That it hasn't happened, I think is, is really unfortunate. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna use that as the term. There are stronger terms I could use, but I'm just gonna say, like, I, I, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to declare anything about what that might say about the NBA, but it says something about the NBA. I think that nothing else has happened since, and I think that's unfortunate. But anyway, condolences to, to the Collins family, the Clark family, and yeah, very, very, very sad, sad week in the NBA.
- [96:48]
A
Yeah, well said. And you know, and I don't know what else to even say. It's all terrible. Anyway, somber note to end the pot on we do have more basketball coming this weekend as a nice distraction to do or die games. Sixes for the Wolves and the Pistons and the Thunder and the Knicks await. And we move on to crown the 2026 champion. Howard Beck, you have a column coming up at the Ringer. We got real ones twice a week, I think. And Tuesday, Friday, Tuesday, Friday. And all my days, just their game days. Two day. Two game days, one off day, whatever. They're just days. You're the man. Howard Beck, thank you for your time.
- [97:30]
B
Thank you, Zach. Appreciate it.
- [97:34]
A
That's it for today's Zach Low Show. We'll be back next week as normally scheduled on Tuesday. We'll see what happens between now and then. Maybe we'll get a couple game sevens. Maybe there'll be an emergency podcast. Who the heck knows? Let's remember for two game sevens, thanks to the great Howard Beck for his time, thanks to Billy, Jonathan and Michael on production and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Low Show. See you next week. 21 are over and President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or 1-800- my reset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.