← The Zach Lowe Show
The Zach Lowe Show
Complete NBA Draft Analysis With Tate Frazier and Mo Dakhil. Plus, a Conversation With New Orlando Magic Teammate Desmond Bane.
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Same goes for growing a business and HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win Breeze. Their built in AI automatically takes care of marketing, sales and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient and most importantly, it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. That's good. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. Okay, Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Whoo. A lot going on in the NBA. The draft was last night. We've got trades galore, including a puzzler by the New Orleans Pelicans that is incredibly reckless, incredibly risky and boy oh boy did the Hawks just walk in to an amazing payoff. My Atlanta Hawks are coming. We're going to get into every trade. All the major draft fits with Tate FR is going to educate me about college basketball. We hit top to bottom everything that happened at the draft. I haven't addressed the Portland Boston trade from earlier this week with Anthony Simons Drew Holiday yet. We get into that. Are the Blazers going to be sneaky good this year? We get into the Porzingis salary dump. What did the Nets do? Who are all these players? How good could the Hawks be next year? What are the Celtics up to? Is there anything to that Jaylen Brown smoke? What about the Derrick White smoke? Or the Celtics going to stand pat? There's obviously still a lot of offseason left to go, including the second round of the draft coming up tonight. That's all coming up on the Zach Low show right after this break. You're listening to the Zach Lowe show presented by FanDuel. The NBA Finals might be over, but you can still get in on the action with America's number one sportsbook. It's never too early to look ahead to next season with tons of futures and player specials all throughout season long. If you want to keep betting on all the other excitement this summer, FanDuel has it all. From MLB to soccer, golf to WNBA. Download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg d help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 or over in President select states or 18 and over in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com welcome to the Zach Lowe show. The draft happened. A lot of trades happened. I haven't even weighed in on the Boston salary dump shed. There is a lot to talk about and we have college perspective. Tate Frazier, one shining podcast. How are you?
- [02:40]
Tate Frazier
I'm doing great, Zach. Happy to be here and I'm happy to answer any questions you have about Derrick Queen. So I'm ready to go, man.
- [02:46]
Zach Lowe
I got a lot of questions about Derrick Queen Mota kill from video coordinator days at multiple teams from all so many media outlets I can't keep track. He's got his own podcast with Jared Dubin. You're going to help me with the NBA fits. How are you, sir?
- [03:00]
Mo DeKill
I'm doing great, Zach. I'm excited to be here and and hear from Tate because I got questions.
- [03:05]
Zach Lowe
About Derek Queen as well.
- [03:06]
Tate Frazier
Let's do it.
- [03:07]
Zach Lowe
All right. Well, that's where we're going to start the Pelicans Hawks trade from last night and just the general outlook for both teams after both of them made previous trades this week that interesting trades. One of which was a Boston salary dump to Celtics dumping Porzingis to the Hawks in a three team trade that involved the Nets taking on Terrence Mann and the number 22 pick. The Nets just, just drafted five dudes and everyone was confused about how could they draft five guys. I don't think anyone checked the Nets roster. They had plenty of room to draft all five guys and I don't think they could have drafted a more eclectic mix of guys had they tried just for that purpose to. To draft eclectic mixes. Unbelievable night for the Nets. We'll get to that and then. Okay, so let's start with this, okay. The Pelicans came in with the number 23 pick in the draft. That was the Pacers pick. That was originally. It was. It's a long story. They had the Pacers pick, got the Pacers big trade. The Pacers their own pickback. They moved up 10 spots from 23 to 13 to draft Derek Queen from Maryland. Like their Queen. That's fine. In return they gave the Hawks the 23rd pick that aforementioned for which the Hawks selected Asa Newell from Georgia. People seem to like him. I know Tate, you, you liked him at that spot. And more importantly, an unprotected 2026 pick that is the best going to Atlanta. The most favorable of the Pelicans own pick. You might remember that the Pelicans play in the Western Conference. They're starting point guard tore his Achilles and their starting power forward slash franchise player never Plays their pick or the Bucs pick. You might remember that the Buck starting point guard tore his Achilles and the Bucs best player, if he gets injured for any stretch of time, they are hopeless without a life raft. Unprotected in a draft that is absolutely loaded at the top. According to all my draft expert friends. I'm still in shock. I can't believe that they paid that price to go up 10 spots. Get there. Particularly in a draft where we saw a couple of more than a couple, some trade ups that like made sense. Like Utah paid a reasonable price to move up three spots from 21 to 18 and draft Wal Walter Clayton Jr. Great night for Utah. We'll talk about Ace Bailey. Fall Ace. They're taking Ace Bailey. Ace Bailey. We don't care that you stiffed us at the restaurant with the bill. We don't care that you never even came to Utah. You don't even know where Utah is on the map. Maybe we don't care we're taking you. Memphis paid a heavier price to move up from 16 to 11 to draft Cedric, not Colin Coward. Cedric Coward. Reasonable trades both. This one, you have to look at it and wonder. Bryson Graham, he was the holdover in the front office in New Orleans from the David Griffin regime. Stuck around for a while, stuck around enough to have some conversations with Joe Dumars and Troy Weaver and then went to Atlanta and took a promotion to go to Atlanta and be Onse Soleil's right hand man. One of two. And then on draft night you have to wonder if in the lead up to it, he told the Hawks, I know what Joe wants and we're going to squeeze him really, really hard. I think this is an absolutely reckless, reckless trade. And it's so reckless that I was texting with some people this morning, front office people, scouts and about, you know, because the trade is going to overshadow that. The Pelicans walked out of this draft with Jeremiah Fierce at seven who people seem reasonably excited about is like an upside. Like why not? What else do we have going on? Super skilled with the ball pick and Derek Queen At 13, a very high profile, super skilled college player. Like if both of those hit, like the Pelicans are counting on all the. You can critique our process all you want. The results are going to bear out. So Tate, I ask you, tell me about these guys and how they fit on a Pelicans team that by the way to me inexplicably just volunteered to take on Jordan Poole's salary for an extra year for some reason and trading C.J. mcCollum to the Wizards. If I had to project it out, I would say their starting five is Jordan Poole with. With Dejounte Murray out recovering from an Achilles injury. Herb Jones Jr love him. Trey Murphy III love him. Didn't get why there was any trade buzz about those guys. Don't really buy that it was real because why would. Those are the last guys I'm trading if I'm the Pelicans. Zion great when he plays. Misi like him fine. That's why I didn't. I didn't understand the Moloch buzz for them because they already have Eve Missy. Although everyone wants two centers now, I guess Wemby panic is. Is flying across the Western Conference. Then off the bench you got fears. Jose Alvarado, Sadiq Bay Queen. The Matkovich kid. I like that. Can play Zion at center like it's an okay team. Tate, I'm going to go to you first.
- [08:03]
Tate Frazier
Please.
- [08:04]
Zach Lowe
Derek Queen, sell me on this. Tell me that he fits with Zion. Tell me that this price is not the absolute most insane thing that's happened in the NBA in a little bit.
- [08:13]
Tate Frazier
Well, I think there are two conversations right there is the conversation, which is what you're having, which is the NBA conversation, which is this is insane and unprotected pick. I'm a Joe Dumars guy, you know, shout out to McNe State. I love Joe. I think Joe's the best. I love the two phones with Joe. I think it's a great meme. I think it's a great moment now. Exactly. Zach knows what he's doing. Yeah.
- [08:32]
Zach Lowe
You.
- [08:32]
Tate Frazier
You get it. So this is the Joe Dumars that we know and love. And I do feel like that Joe, as you mentioned and you kind of laid out he probably watched Derrick Queen on tape and fell in love with Derrick Queen because Derrick Queen has kind of these old school tendencies that you kind of fall in love with, which is in March Madness, we needed someone to make a highlight play, someone to have a buzzer beater to get us going. Who did it? Derek Qu wanted the ball at the end of the game. Derrick Queen, who can create for others. Derrick Queen, who has a Wes unselled Kevin Love outlet pass. Derek Queen. So I understand the creativity of Derrick Queen and why you would fall in love with him. The touch, the feel. I do feel like he's a very special type of player. I do think he has star and every single level that we've seen Derek Queen, whether it's high school, whether it's College, whether it's like a random game in the park, he ends up being the best player on the court. Now, I don't know how it really works, Zach. I don't know if it's something where like he has a handshake deal with the guys before he starts playing, but for whatever reason, people defer to him. People expect him to be a creator. People expect him to be a guy who can kind of stir the drink for everybody else. He's a very likable kid. He's a very affable kid. I think he's a good locker room presence. I can see why he maybe didn't do as great in the pre draft process with some of that stuff because he's a little bit kind of loose and light, but the basketball speaks for itself. I think it's a really good fit. As far as you know him, Joe Dumars, that group of guys. I think Zion will like him and I like him as a small ball 5. I like him as kind of a floater and, and he has said multiple times he wants to create on the perimeter and I think he can do that.
- [09:59]
Zach Lowe
Okay. Wow. That was okay. Mo, any, any follow ups? Any notes? Well, yeah.
- [10:06]
Mo DeKill
Like how do you think he pairs with. With, like how do you think he pairs with Zion on the floor together? Like, is this going to be a thing where we can only play one of those guys at the same time? From my understanding, I'm not a big draft guy myself, so it's not like I have a full understanding. Like, is he a guy that can space the floor a little bit? Ken, these two in your mind play together. Cause I just think no matter how high you are on him, I think giving up an unprotected pick when you are not projected to be good next year is absolutely insane. Like I'm still flabbergasted. Like I slept on it was tossing all night going like, man, did they really, like they really think they're going to be good this year? Like, I just don't know what the plan is here. Like, that's the thing I'm worried about is beyond that. As much as you love the kid like you are you wrecking your future in this in a draft? Again, that we think is going to be really good in the top. And that's an area where I. We would have projected New Orleans to be picking.
- [11:02]
Tate Frazier
And it doesn't help with the conditioning aspect too. Right. The one knock on Derrick Queen that you would probably point to to say, you know, we need him to Be locked in from a conditioning standpoint. That's the same thing that you kind of had with Zion. Now you take him down in New Orleans. This is already an issue for Zion six years in. We don't want Queen to kind of fall down that same path. That would be my concern.
- [11:21]
Mo DeKill
New Orleans, you automatically gain five pounds when you get off the plane. And every like week you get, you get more and more. It's just naturally how it happens.
- [11:31]
Zach Lowe
So you're telling me, Tate, that New Orleans traded one of the best assets in the entire NBA. Now in a draft that is absolutely loaded to pick a player who they then have to tell, hey, can you just like not hang out with our best player off the court so much? Like, I don't, I don't think that's a great idea for you. Is that what you're telling me?
- [11:51]
Tate Frazier
I'm hoping that there is like some sort of like positive spin on this where maybe Zion sees Derek Queen and wants to take him under his wing and maybe they get in shape together. You know what I mean? Zach? I kind of lean to more an optimist approach with these draft picks, you know, and I do like Fears and I do like Queen. Like, if you just gave me an event.
- [12:07]
Zach Lowe
I like fears too. I, I think fears is a good pick there.
- [12:10]
Tate Frazier
So if you showed me those two guys and didn't give me the unprotected or, you know, all that sort of stuff in the background and said, hey, the Pelicans got these two guys in the draft, I would come away and say, hey, it's pretty good draft. Really, really good players, star upside. But when you throw in the pick, that's when it makes it, you know, a very convoluted conversation.
- [12:27]
Zach Lowe
Now I want to tie a couple of things together with this next discussion because I think you just led me to an important point about the Pelicans and connecting it to the Blazers who were the other partner for the Boston salary dumps of the week. The Blazers trade Anthony Simons expiring contract and some second round picks for Jrue Holiday. And that's drew. Holiday's got three years left on his deal. He's that $37 million player option three years from now. It's a good bet that he's going to opt into that. It's a lot to take on. Even if the Blazers, if you map it out, are safe from the aprons and some years safe from the tax, they've got a lot of big numbers coming off the books in the next couple of years. If they want in Ayton and Robert Williams III and they just keep acquiring centers. They lit the world on fire with Yang, Yang Han Sen I guess is how you say his name from China who was mocked in the mid second round or the high 30s. And they took him at 16 in their, in their trade now from 11. We'll talk about that. And it seemed sort of like that's a little. Is that irrational exuberance from Portland. I know they finished the season I think on a 23 and 18 run. You never know what to make of March and April in the NBA when bad teams start winning a little more games. But there were real signs there. Scoot I think made a leap up. Denny Abdia was outstanding. Kamara is a real, a real guy. And you look at their team now in the wake of that trade and I'm going to project they have seven potential starters but I'm going to, I'm going to guess that this is their starting five. Scoot. The Runway is there for Scoot now and I think Scoot made real strides as a score around the basket. Three point shooter, mid range is only so so. But unlike Simons, there are real signs that Scoot's a guy that can make his teammates better and will defend really, really hard. Simons is like a bottom fifth percentile defender in the NBA. Scoot, Abdia, Kamara, Grant, Ayton. That's one iteration of the starting five. It's one in which both Shaden Sharpe, Andrew Holliday come off the bench. Could you start one of them? Absolutely. I don't know who you would take out of the starting five. Could you coax Jeremy Grant? And Jeremy Grant probably is like I'm the guy. And then you have like Thibault. You start, you stagger one of those, those Abdia, Kamara and Grant could all play the floor. You stagger one of them and you have million centers starting with clinging off the bench like that's a decent team. I don't know how they're going to score. Like I don't know how they're going to build an above average offense out of that. But I think my point is this. I think both Portland and to some extent New Orleans now New Orleans has so much uncertainty swirling around it between the Murray recovery timeline, if he can even come back this year. I don't know. I think they're hopeful. I think it was late January when he tore his Achilles and Zion is just a ball of uncertainty. But I think they're both looking at the west and Saying to themselves, everyone says the west is loaded and the west is loaded. But are people kind of overrating the West? Is it maybe a little kind of fat in the midsection, where there's an opening for a random team like one of us to just suddenly be a 46 win team? And you look up and down the conference, Oklahoma City, we know Houston is going to be very good. Denver, as long as Jokic is healthy, is going to be very good. And then after that, it's like Clippers, you know, they have downside risk. Warriors, they have downside risk. They're getting old. They have this Kaminga question hanging over their head. Memphis just took a step back. Lakers, I mean, we all think it's going to work with Luka, it was. It was good last year, but it wasn't like, oh, my God, they still need a center, blah, blah, blah. Mark Williams, their trade target, was just traded to Phoenix. Dallas. Can we go easy on the Mavs or a championship contender, by the way? Can we just, like, pump the brakes on that? Can we just pump the brakes on the Mavs being the biggest threat to the Thunder in the Western Conference?
- [16:16]
Mo DeKill
That's insane. That's such an insane concept.
- [16:19]
Zach Lowe
Right, Kyrie? People know Kyrie. Tor is acl, right? Like, he's gonna be. And he did it in March. Like, he had his surgery in late March. Yeah. By the way, I don't know if you guys know this. Did either of you know. Do you know right now that Cooper Flag is from Maine? Did any. Do you guys know that the main.
- [16:36]
Tate Frazier
Man, the main character. I mean, how many more puns can we get? Zach?
- [16:40]
Zach Lowe
No more main puns. Between main puns and flag puns, there were just way too many puns. And, like, no state has ever this mi. When is the last time a state, not a city, not a town, a state, got this much mileage out of an athlete? Like, I'm. I would like to actually think about that one enough. I know he's from Maine, Phoenix, spurs, obviously on the way up with. With Wemby, Sacramento, whatever. Minnesota is actually probably pretty rock solid unless they do some. So that's. That's like a fourth or fifth rock solid team. My point is this. Like, I don't think it's crazy for both of these teams to look at the west and say, we have a path into the play in at the very least. Now, I think it's a little crazier for New Orleans given their health situation, but I think. I think both these teams are looking at the west and thinking all the hype around it is legit. It's a deep conference. Players keep coming here, top picks keep coming here. Dylan Harper is coming here. Cooper Flagg from Maine is coming here. But there's a, there's a. It's, it's maybe not as elite. Elite. Elite across the board. As. As. As people think. And why not bet on ourselves? Mo, what do you. What do you think of that Portland roster and outlook that I just laid out? Like, I just. The offense is. I don't quite see the roadmap there, but Abdia made a huge leap last year. Drawn fouls, get into the basket. Grant didn't play much and they down the stretch and they still were winning games. Like, there's a decent. I don't mind them being like, we're going to try to compete. I think the third year of Drew's deal really makes it a little exorbitant for them. It's, it's, it's fair to ask, like, did they sell low on Anthony Simons? I actually probably don't think that they did. This is a front office that knows how to canvass the whole league. Once Orlando moved on to Bain, I don't know that there was a huge market for Simons and, and he's on it expiring. Who's going to want money? I think I don't mind. I don't love it, but I don't mind it. And I see what they're trying to do there. It's like, let's try to win some games. Yeah.
- [18:43]
Mo DeKill
I actually think their, their run towards the end of the season last year was a bit more real than I think most people. Like, I think that's something where I look at them going like, this is kind of the Houston roadmap for them in the way they're trying to go about things. I think not just the fact of the matter is, you know, they, they go on that run at the end of the season, but I think, you know, defense has been really what they were focused on. When you look at the way these guys had defended towards the end of the season, especially with guys like Kamara who you're looking at going like, that's a dude that can be an all defensive guy. To me on a make a second team, all defensive team, you know, in the next few years, with how good he is defensively, I like what they have in terms of the pieces. I'm not a big eight in guy. And again, they have a million centers, so I think, you know, we'll we'll see how that stuff kind of tunes this stuff out. I, I think they're going to be one of those teams that it's going to be on a nightly basis. They're very difficult to play against and I think this is a reason to go for it. You have a bunch of young guys. I think this is the time to take the training wheels off of them. We got to go win games at this point. Now you got to compete. You got to try. You know, you have, you just gave Chauncey an extension. Joe Cronin got an extension for how he built the team. Everything that you have with them, like, and I see no reason for them not to. They were a 36 win team last season. I can't see a reason why they can't be a, a better team and make a run for the plan. I think it's going to be really hard to get in the top six, especially if again, like you, I do wonder about their offense. How good are they going to be offensively? I think they sold Simons at the right price. I think they, if they held on to him any longer, they probably weren't going to get anything back. I think the question for me is, you know, are you going to be able to keep Drew or something? Is Drew going to want to stay there? Are you going to be able to kind of or are you going to turn him into something else? Like I'll be curious to see how that kind of plays out. And again with the log jam at center, I still think there might be a couple more moves coming.
- [20:31]
Zach Lowe
I think the door, all the doors are open. I mean, I think they traded for Drew Holiday to have Drew Holiday on their team as an adult in the room who by the way, like, I, I didn't like how his game was trending last year. Now he dealt with some, some lower body injuries. Maybe, maybe he'll bounce back. But the bounce back in the playoffs that the Celtics were hoping for didn't happen. And he looked old. He started to look a little bit like an older player, which he is. But I think they traded for him to be the veteran, the mentor, bolster the defense. That, particularly when Clingan is on the floor is going to be really, really good. I mean if there's one thing clinging can do, I had clinging on my all rookie team because he could do one thing really well and that's good enough for a rookie. Protect the rim. Offensively, I still kind of don't see it with him. It's, it's Just everything is very slow, which is why their, their swing for the fences with Yang at 16 was so fascinating to me. I don't think anybody saw that coming. They had number 11. Memphis wanted Coward, which was, which was kind of well known throughout the league. And Portland moves back five spots and picks up an Orlando pick in 2028. A first round pick. So an extra first. That's good because they owe Chicago a first and a few seconds. Tate, what do you think of the Coward meteoric rise? I'm looking at your board. You had him 13 on your big board. College players only. What do you think of his fit in Memphis and how shocked were you by the Yang selection in and how much film had you done of, of his play in China? I know you're, you know, a grinding.
- [22:00]
Tate Frazier
Tape like Rossillo always locked in, you know, young Hansen, as you know, the Chinese joker is what we like to call him. A lot of saucy passes, you know what I mean? That's what I learned from my, you know, two minute deep dive into Yong Hanson. A lot of just the impressive passes. I don't know really if it translates or not, but I like it. It felt like the Papayanis pick, Danny Chow had texted me that too, from 2016. You know what I mean? Yeah. Not to, you know, I know it wasn't lottery, but it's kind of just feels like, kind of in that range of like we're taking a big swing here. Thawne maker at number 10, right. One of those picks where it's just like, we like this guy, we're gonna take him. It doesn't matter what the number is. So I found that a little bit jarring. But the Cedric Coward of it all, I mean, this is a guy that should have been a hidden gem. He should have been the 35th, 37th pick that nobody really knows. He only played six games last year. But because we're all so smart, Zach, and I give you some credit for this, I mean, there's so much kind of trickle down economics of everyone knows who is going to be the right recipe of a player in the NBA now. And I feel like Cedric Coward just checks so many boxes and I feel like the shoulders, the broad shoulders, I feel like for Cedric Coward, that is what I would point to as far as the frame, what he can become. And if you talk about Jalen Wells and Cedric Coward, I think Jalen Wells, you know, obviously top three rookie of the year voting this year, very underrated player. He's six foot seven. You get Cedric Coward who's six foot six. You got these guys on the wing who have a lot of energy, a lot of motor, a lot of upside and a lot of iq. And I think that those two guys together, they also really like each other. They're good friends. I just like kind of the teamwork that you got with those two guys on the wing. Very young own rookie deals. They're going to work really hard. You replace Bane with Coward and Wells, I think that's a really good fit.
- [23:40]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, you know the trade up in the N B A the math seldom works out. If you just do the Dallas Cowboys draft value thing the the math seldom works out. That trad up is like the the quote unquote smart move. Certainly the Pelicans paid an incredible premium to trade up 10 spots. There's just no math model where that is going to be a smart move. This one I I really I I don't know what those models would say. I this is why you get an access an excess of first round picks. It's what the Thunder have been doing with all their first round picks. Take a swing. The Magic pick in 28 I think it's 2028. The Magic are probably going to be good. The cost is like the probabilities favor you there and if you really like this guy and you think he fits, go and get him. And for Portland, just a fascinating move they get. They get an extra pick. But yeah, I don't I don't mind that at all. For the Grizzlies we have to talk about my pet team in the NBA. We've talked around it enough. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Same goes for growing a business and HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win Breeze. Their built in AI automatically takes care of marketing, sales and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient and most importantly it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. Visit HubSpot.com AI to learn more. When I had Wazon like 2 or 3 weeks ago and we took we did the east kind of future power rankings and test drove Bill's Bill's argument that the Pacers this was the second round of the playoffs I think had the best medium term future in the Eastern Conference. I ended up picking Cleveland. But now sadly many things have changed. Shout out to Tyrese Halliburton by The way jump passes are good now. I had the Hawks really high, like fourth or third or something and was like, you're being insane. And I thought, look, like, I kind of like their team. I like this Daniels, Risa, Shay, Johnson, a Congu 2 to 5. I lobbied for. Like, I think it's just time to keep Trey Young and hope you can. There's nothing out there for him. Sam Amick reported today that the Kings have, like, been. I don't know what language you use, but at least, like, had the thought of trading for Trae Young into their brains and said they don't want to do it. I've heard the same thing. He evolved last year in ways I've talked about now, just a little bit. He's still Trey Young, but like, keep coaxing them that way. Keep getting players, other playmakers, supplementary playmakers, other guard screeners, people that sort of just force him into being a more creative, on and off ball, more unpredictable offensive player. And then they get this trade. They walk into this unprotected pick after already digging themselves out of the Dejounte Murray grave with a retrade of Dejounte Murray that turns into a masterpiece. And I think the Porzingis fit is potentially awesome for them and gives them a completely new style of player to play with. Trey, look, it still bothers me that we don't really know, like, what was wrong with Porzingis. He's apparently playing tennis and feeling great and ready to play for the Latvia national team. That's awesome. I assume the Hawks have done all their due diligence. I guess I must like Terrence Mann more than most people because that was just a pure salary dump and they couldn't find anywhere else to put him. And it shows you in this apron environment, teams are kind of panicking about even $15 million salaries. If they're two, three years on them and they had to pay the 22 pick to get off of that. I guess that's just the cost of doing business. I like the Porzingis fit for them. They're one backup wing, one quality wing away from me being like, this is a legit. I mean, they might already be a legit threat to make the. I think they. No, no, no. Maybe they are a legit threat to make the conference finals in what remains of the Eastern Conference next year. They're one good wing away from being super, super interesting. They have this trade exception that everyone's talking about that they can use as signed. It's like a free agency vehicle. What not Anyone else is talking about is they also have Karis Levert in free agency and they kind of can't resign him and use the trade exception because then that takes him into the tax. They might be able to resign Levert and use a little piece of the trade exception. But I thought Levert was good for them. I think with man being dumped and Niang being dumped in that salary dump, they need some depth. But you look at Trey Young, Daniels, Risha, say Johnson, Okongwu and then off the bench again, I need to, I need to see, you know, what Kobe Buffkin can do and if they bring back Lavert and they love Mo Gay and I see what they say, see in Moge defensively, Porzingis is a backup center. I think they think Porzingis and Akongu can play together a little bit here and there. But this brings me to my take question. Asa Newell, at 23, you had him ranked eighth on your big board of college players. Can he step in and be one of these guys that I'm talking about for the potential NBA champion, slash dynastic Atlanta Hawks?
- [28:49]
Tate Frazier
I will say this about Asa Newell. I do think that he's a lottery talent and that does not necessarily mean that he's going to be, you know, an all star, a superstar, things like that. But the fact that he fell to 23 and especially when you add in the unprotected of it all with that trade with the Pelicans, I think this is a win win because this is a talent that honestly, if they took ace of Newell at 13, Zach, that would have been a good pick in my opinion. In my estimation, I think he is a Georgia kid, obviously played at Georgia, going to be in Atlanta, going to be very comfortable, going to have people around him that are going to be very excited. There's going to be some energy in that building. I do like the Trey Young of it all in Atlanta. I think that he's kind of weathered the storm. They've tried to get rid of him multiple times, but again, he won't go away. I'm on your side. I think the Hawks are trending in the right direction. Defensively, they put the right pieces behind Trae Young. We need size, we need length, we've got that now behind him. Daniels, I thought was a really good piece for this team, especially with Trey Young. And I think that Asa Newell, his game is definitely, you know, there's going to be some range for him to grow into more of a scorer, into more of a shooter, right? More of a spot up guy. But right now, he's a solid piece. He can defend the rim a little bit. He can get your rebounds. He's going to be a solid piece on the block. He's not going to take shots away from anybody but a 15 to 20 minute spot, minute guy at number 23 who has lottery gifts and lottery talent. I think it's a nice piece for the Hawks.
- [30:08]
Zach Lowe
Let's go.
- [30:09]
Tate Frazier
That's what I wanted.
- [30:10]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I was just waiting for that look. Okay. I love it. I love everything you just said. I think the Hawks have really done well the last week or 10 days. Let's go rapid. Oh, by the way, about Trey, you said they've tried to get rid of him a few times. I think that was the language you used. I don't know how aggressive they've been, but I will say this. At various points over the last 18 months, because the Hawks have, like, waxed and waned a lot over the last 18 months, right? Like, they always end up at the play in no matter what the path of waxing and waning is to get there. But they've had periods, particularly I think, the first couple months of last season before Jalen Johnson got hurt, periods where it looked like, okay, something interesting is happening here. And then less interesting periods, which is to say I'm pretty confident that over the last 18 months, there were points at which, if there had been a strong offer on the board for Trey Young, he probably would not be on the Hawks anymore. Possibly, I should say so, not be on the Hawks anymore. Now, I think I said this already. Look, I'm not giving him the max extension. Just like, if I'm the Kings, I'm not giving Zach Levine anything like the max extension. And if the downside risk of that is Trae Young being like, I'm Trey Young, I'm Ice Trey. I do this thing after I make baskets, and people love it. I'm the only reason people have been coming to games here for the last five years. Give me the max or I'm leaving. Then I'm living with that. What I'm trying to do is, can I get you. Can I sell you on the vision we have here that you can be the best player on a really good team in a market that loves you, and we can sign you to an extension that is reasonable and not the max? And if I can't, I can't. But I also know that Atlanta is among the teams that has most closely watched Indiana and will definitely be going to Trae Young and being like did you watch the playoffs? Did you see the power? Now, you're never going to play like Tyrese Halbert. We get that. But did you see the power of, like, a little more pace, a little more unpredictability, a little more give and go and move? And did you see what can happen when a defensively challenged guard, who admittedly is taller than you and has more size and probably better instincts, just buys in and plays his ass off every minute of every game defensively? Did you see that? Because it's a game changer for a team that's trying to win at the highest level. That's all I'm saying about the Hawks. Okay, let's rapid fire through some things. Tate. Yeah, Utah. Everyone's excited about Utah that they're among the big winners of the night. They traded up for Clayton and they had Ace. Fault. Not fault him. Ace was there at five and they took Ace. You had Ace number two on your big board and Clayton, I'm looking for. Where's Clayton?
- [32:54]
Tate Frazier
21.
- [32:55]
Zach Lowe
21, yeah. How excited are you about the Ace fit in Utah?
- [32:59]
Tate Frazier
I think that Ace Bailey, I just. You look the. The agent of it all, right? The Omar of it all made this a little bit awkward and made it weird for everybody. And I do feel like trying to dictate the terms of Ace Bailey's draft destination was definitely a swing and a miss. But with Utah, they did the right thing. I think they looked at the board and they said to themselves, hey, even if he doesn't want to be here, or at least that's what the representation is telling us, we know enough based on the intel around Ace, which is, hey, he's great in practice, he's great in the locker room. All of his teammates like him. He's like a 12 year. Everyone says he's like a teenager, Right. He's just like. He hasn't quite got to that maturation process. But if you're Utah, we have a Runway. We have time for him to mature. And we also have a situation where we wanted the number one pick, right? We wanted a talent at number one or number two or number three. We didn't get that opportunity. But guess what? We got a top three talent in the draft. He fell into our laps. Yes. He didn't want to work out for us. Yes. He didn't want to go to dinner. Yes. He didn't want to call Danny a. But guess what? We can still get him to Utah and we get him a nice kind of running mate with Walter Clayton Jr. A guy who's a little bit older, who has kind of gone through the ebbs and flows of college basketball, has now ended up on the right side of things, has a kid has kind of responsibility to life. I feel like some of that stuff around Ace will be really good. They can grow together. And I feel like these guys are going to be fish out of water in Utah. A kid from Florida, a kid from Georgia. They're going to be out there in the middle of nowhere. All they have is basketball. I think they're going to lock in. I think that's why I really like the fit. Because these two guys can kind of fit in with each other. They can have a kind of freedom with this team as they get rid of the older guys that are kind of on bad contracts and let them go. And Ace can do some things that'll make you go, wow, you know what I mean? You talk about mouth agape. You know what I mean? You watch Ace Bailey do some things on a basketball court, some of the shots he can hit, it's really special. So I just think it's a really good fit for Utah. And I would be very excited if I was a Jazz fan to have those two guys coming into the building.
- [34:54]
Zach Lowe
I just like the positional fit that both of them have because the Jazz have a lot of these sort of, you know, small guards or. Or ball dominant guards and they, you know, and centers in. In Kessler and Filipowski, who's, you know, can play the four, but is. Is also a four and a half or whatever. And, you know, these represent positions of need for them whether Markkanen is on the team in two years or not. It's the kind of size positions that you want. And they also, if necessary. Now I like Hendricks. I think Taylor Hendricks is on track to be a good NBA player before his injury. Hopefully he's fine if the Cody Williams pick is a bust like this. This kind of gets you out of that a little bit. I think it's awesome for them. It's for them. And like, yeah, Ace. Ace will learn. Will have to learn to like playing for the Jazz because that's who he's playing for. All right, let's keep going. Washington, Trey Johnson adding to a list of. And Will Riley adding to a list of young players of Alex Saar, Bob Carrington, Bilal Koulibaly, Keshan George, AJ Johnson, who they stole from the Bucks in the Kuzma deal. You know, they haven't gotten the lottery luck. In fact, they've gotten the opposite. They had to trade Beal from a position of extreme weakness. There's something interesting going on in Washington, and I like the getting off Pool's money and bringing in CJ and just, you know, I think the bet there for them is CJ Is going to be a little less ball dominant than pool, so all of our other young guys can get some reps. He's going to be a great veteran for everybody, and we can maybe reflip him at the trade deadline. Sorry, C.J. i know you love being in trade rumors. I. I think they've done a nice job. You are all, Tate, tell me about Trey Johnson and how he fits there.
- [36:37]
Tate Frazier
Well, Trey Johnson this year in college basketball. SEC best conference ever. That's what they were saying, Zach. And Trey Johnson was a freshman. He led the entire conference in scoring. So that says a lot about who he is as a player. The fact that he was able to average 20 points a game against the size, against the length of everyone in the sec There also had. They had an interesting situation where his point guard, Tramond Mark was trying to ice him out of games. It was like an Isaiah Thomas, Michael Jordan all star situation where these are, yeah, two ball dominant guards that are basically like, I'm a senior, I take the shots. I'm a freshman. I'm better than you. Give me the basketball. So that was happening as well. So for Trey Johnson to kind of, you know, still stay in it, still get his numbers, still be able to make a positive impact from a scoring standpoint, I think that's very positive. And if, you know, I'm reading between the lines here, if I'm Troy Weaver, the Washington everyone that's putting this team together. CJ you mentor Trey, you help him understand where his spots and his shots are. You let him understand what a matured game looks like as a scorer. And then as soon as kind of that tutelage is over with, hey, thanks, C.J. back to trade rumors and you can go to a contender, all that sort of stuff. But I like having someone to guide Trey into this situation. And you give Bub Carrington the ball more. You got the front line with Sar. I mean, I like Keyshawn George, who they got last year in the draft. I mean, I really like what the Wizards are doing in general, but I think Bub getting the ball more, Trey Johnson getting some shots for this team. There's a lot of things to be excited about with this young core.
- [38:00]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, you know, I'm not sure there's like a long term alpha number one option on the team yet. I actually like. Well, I'll get to Houston later, but. But that's fine. Like you, those guys don't grow on trees. They have a nice collection of young players. I liked Sar as a rookie. I like Carrington enough. You know, I'm not. I'm not sure how much offense is there in terms of like, can he really carry a gigantic pick and roll load, but he's going to get his chances. I don't know Mo.
- [38:30]
Desmond Bain
Where.
- [38:30]
Zach Lowe
What team do you want to go to next? I'll let you pick a team that you're interested to talk about.
- [38:34]
Tate Frazier
I like this.
- [38:34]
Zach Lowe
Well, I think.
- [38:35]
Mo DeKill
I think we just got to go to Houston. I think you. You mentioned them. I think that's the team to go to right now.
- [38:41]
Zach Lowe
Well, take it away.
- [38:43]
Mo DeKill
Well, no, I just think I love what they did with the KD trade. I think the more impressive thing than anything else is the Fred Van Vliet contract extension. They get him to turn down the player option of 44 million, get him to sign for two years, around 50 million. Like, that's shocking to me a little bit in terms of him just leaving a lot of money on the table in the sense of that, but allows him to be a free agent when there's more projected cap space in two years. And then it kind of just sets this team up beautifully. They still have a ton of assets, Zach. Like, that's the thing that's kind of amazing in the trade that for KD didn't give up Reed Shepherd. No. Jabari Smith didn't give up Cam Whitmore. You know, I think with all the stuff that they have, like, they're still in position if they want to go make another trade. And I just think looking at the way the roster set up kd. Amen Thompson, Fred Van Vliet, Alperin, Shen Goon. Like, you're kind of set up beautifully for them to just kind of continue to be a terror on defense and then have a guy who can get you a bucket at the end of the, you know, possessions, which is something they struggled with throughout the course of the season last year. Like, I think that's a phenomenal move for them with what they have. And I really think Eme is excited. I think this is going to be a fun group to. To coach. And I think this is the team that they're trying to put together to challenge the Thunder. Like, this is the squad right here that's going to be able to do it, I think. And you know, they're still not even done. They still have pieces that they can move if they want to, if there's somebody out there they want to go get.
- [40:12]
Zach Lowe
Look, free agency hasn't even started yet. Well, it's started, wink, wink, but it hasn't actually started yet. If you asked me to line up teams two, three and four behind Oklahoma City, who's going to walk in as the favorite to win the whole thing again in some order, it's Houston, Denver, and you have to put Minnesota there because of what they've accomplished the last two years. I did the Durant thing already, my last episode. I love the trade. I think it's awesome. The Van Vliet thing is such a masterful use of leverage. They had this team option on him for 45 million and they could go to him respectfully and be like, so here's what's going to happen. We're not going to pick that up, but we are going to offer you the equivalent money, actually $5 million more total, but over two years. So your salary for next year is going to be 25 instead of 45. If you don't like that, you can go ask the Nets to spend a lot of money on you this offseason. There's no cap room out there. And not only that, having him at that number puts the mid level exception in play and they're just one extra piece again is just huge for them off their bench and and keeps them out of the tax potentially while using the mid level. He also expires right when Amen Thompson's next deal will kick in, which is huge timing wise for them. I think it's just a home run use of lever. I think they're going to be awesome next year. I have already covered that M.O. to your point, they are flush with assets still and this is neither here nor there. I just want to make sure I remember to say this before I move on. Houston is one of a few teams that theoretically, and I cannot say that strongly enough, would have the juice to go chase Jaylen Brown. And there was a lot of Jalen Brown smoke in the ether this week and a little bit less Derek White smoke in the ether this week and nothing happened. There were published rumors that Utah was trying to make a run at Jaylen Brown. Everyone emphatically turned said that's not true and I believe those people that that wasn't true. The Hawks have been a rumored Jaylen Brown destination for a long time. I don't think there was anything ever there. I don't know that there was anything real With Jaylen Brown at any point this week. I there. There were reports that the Raptors offered number nine for Derrick White. I'm told that's true, but that it happened like a month and a half ago right after Tatum got hurt. And Boston laughed at that offer and said we need way more than number nine for Derrick White. So I don't know. I don't really. And then, you know, Shams had the report on ESPN that the phone lines are ringing off the hook in Boston about Jaylen Brown. In the, in the wake of the Drew Holiday and Kristoff Sporzingis salary dumps. I'm sure they were getting calls. I'm not sure how many calls they were getting. I got a little pushback on the idea that the phones were just like, like dumars level ringing off the hook. I'm pretty confident that the Celtics in the, in the immediate aftermath of Tatum's injury did their due diligence on what they could possibly get for those guys or did their due diligence simply by receiving calls about what they could possibly get for those guys. Which is my long way of saying, like, nothing's happened with them yet. If you force me to bet, I would say both of them are on the Celtics next year and the Celtics could be okay next year. I think Bill's a little, a little too high on them. Like they're one like short term injury away from being really, really thin. But I like the Simons move for them. They might retrade them, they might not. He adds a new dimension on offense that'll be fun to watch them play, to play with a little bit. They'll be okay, but I'm just not shutting the door all the way on either of those guys being moved. If the right. I think you'd have to bowl Boston over and be like, this is like we're having a gap year and you've made it so beyond worth our while that we just have to do this trade. I'm just not shutting the door all the way. End of Boston Boston segment. Tate.
- [44:16]
Tate Frazier
Yeah.
- [44:16]
Zach Lowe
Harper, Castle, Fox, Wemby. What do we think?
- [44:23]
Tate Frazier
I like that the spurs decided to fit Wimy's timeline. I feel like there is this expectation that we have to push everything. We have to put all of our chips in as if like Wimy's going to be away in five years. I like that. The fact that the spurs were like, you know what? We have Castle. We think he's going to be a real player. He's a rookie of the year Obviously, we like him fitting into this timeline. We like the fact that we have the best pick and roll player in the draft. I mean, if you watch Dylan Harper make reads in real time, he has this anticipatory skill, especially when it comes in the pick and roll, of kind of knowing where people are, knowing where bodies will be, and knowing how to move and maneuver in space. I think it's a very special knack and a very special skill. Goes back to the fact that he's watched and played a lot of basketball in his. In his life. So he kind of has this innate kind of knack for knowing where to go with the basketball. I think that's a nice piece to have. I think they looked at him and Wimby and they said, hey, this is a. A future NBA Jam T shirt right here. We can't pass up on this. We can't do a fit pick here when we have this right in front of us. So I understand the Fox of it all, but as you know, and Mo and Zach, I mean, when they made the Fox deal, they had no idea that Dylan Harper would be on the table. So I do, I do think, like, it's almost like the rich got richer. They can figure it out in camp. And from what I know about Dylan, just as a person, he will fit a role if he has to. You know what I mean? Like, Dylan's not one of those guys, is like, I need this many minutes, this many shots, this many, that. But I think he'll get in and he'll make it work. So I think it's a great fit for the Spurs.
- [45:46]
Zach Lowe
I don't think they gave up enough for Fox for me to even be worried about it. If in two or three years I decide I gotta move him for whatever reason. Like, I. I think de' Aaron Fox is really good. I think the price they paid was low. I actually, you know, Sacramento. A little shout out to Sacramento. The mystery team of the off season, by the way, traded a 1 to 16 protected pick from the spurs to buy into the first round and take Nate Clifford. So that, that's, that's a good trade in slash trade up of like, one roughly equivalent pick. We like this guy where we just want this guy on our team. We're going to trade a really limited upside pick. That's about the same as the 24 pick. That's how you do it. That's a good move, Sacramento. By the way, all bets are off with the Kings. Like, all bets are off always. Levine, DeRozan. Does anyone want DeRozan, you know, the Heat have been mentioned. I think the Heat would be smart to prioritize. Like a Kaminga ahead of a. Like a younger guy ahead of a DeRozan. And I think the heat comingo smoke is. Is real. Sabonis. Sabonis just has to be looking around like, what, what we had Fox and Halliburton and this is what's left. Like, all bets are off with the Kings. They are the mystery team of the off season. Nothing would surprise me with the Kings, but, yeah, spurs. Great. Okay. Continuing with Tate educating me about college players. Edgecomb to the Sixers with Maxi McCain and potentially Quentin Grimes. Too many. Just enough guards can Edgecomb play. Oh, can he slide to the 3 in some lineups? He's. What does he have a 6, 10 wingspan or something crazy like that? What do we got here?
- [47:21]
Tate Frazier
Yeah, my favorite comp for VJ that I saw, shout out to aunt, right? Who put this out there? A six foot five, Andrew Wiggins. I think that's a very good way to put VJ Edgecomb, because this guy is just a spark plug. Some of the athletic things that he can do on a basketball court will shock you. He had the number one highlight in college basketball this year. He junked. He dunked on Mark Few son, Joe Few, and absolutely bodied him early in the season and then just stood over him. It was a very, like, moment where it was just like, oh, my God, who is this man? The stories of his time in the Bahamas, the fact that he took his nil money and then sent it down to a scholarship to get kids from his hometown to go to a private school that he got to go to as a basketball player, got him three scholarships. Like, the. The person of vj, I think, is really what sold him. Obviously, the athleticism is amazing. It's tantalizing. It's fun to watch. I think that he can fit into a. I think he's a really good kid. I think a lot of people like being around him. I don't think he's going to be a very selfish personality to be around. And as far as the Sixers, I thought they were drafting VJ to trade vj, but I think once they started kind of, you know, talking to him and bringing him around and sort of seeing the fit, they're like, yeah, we really like this kid. Why are we going to send him somewhere else? Let's bring him in and see what happens. So VJ is going to have some highlights. VJ is going to have some fun summer league moments. I think we should get ready for the summer league dunks that are ahead for vjooqic. And I like to pick for the Sixers. I know it was more of a fit pick than it was like the best on the board, but I think he's a really talented player. Maybe a little bit underrated at this point because he did fit in a role at Baylor so much.
- [48:49]
Zach Lowe
Now, I do think within VJ's camp, there's some consternation about we think this guy can do a lot with the basketball and we're a little concerned about how much he's going to get the basketball on a team with Tyrese Maxey and Joel Embiid. But that's fine. You grow into the role as you. I think it's walking into a situation like this is great. I agree with you that the Sixers would have been open to trading down, but not far down because as this selection evinces and what I've been saying all along, nothing can be done anymore. On Joel Embiid's timeline, every decision they make has to be on Tyrese Maxey's timeline. This fits that. This and the spurs pick fall into the same bucket for me, which is if you think the talent is the best talent, you are not in a place of a franchise to make a decision based on any other factor. But get the best guy. And if this is the best guy, this is the best guy. Can you just. Can either of you. I mean, I take this is your environment more than. More than ours. What have the Nets ended up with with these five picks? That's the next question. And I'm not even saying that to like to besmirch the picks, but they come from all over the world, all different kinds of players. We have a defensive specialist in Powell. We have at least one genius point guard in passer. And Igor Demon. We have a center in Danny Wolf. We have. I mean, I don't know. I don't even know where to start.
- [50:16]
Tate Frazier
Yeah, I said that. This was the 2009 Minnesota Timberwolves draft where they just took everything.
- [50:21]
Zach Lowe
Good. Don't. Don't hit them with that. Don't hit them with that.
- [50:25]
Tate Frazier
That's what I'm saying. That's what was happening. They just took every guard on the board. I think Jaegor was there. I. They're at number eight. Jagor probably would have been gone by the time they get to number 19. So they just do the. The Memphis or the Portland pick where they're just like, hey, take our guy. It doesn't matter. They take Jaeger higher than most people would take Jaeger. That was the first shock of the draft for me. When they took Jaeger at 8, we had.
- [50:45]
Zach Lowe
Sorry, I mispronounced his name as Igor. It's Jaeger. I knew that. I'm just tired.
- [50:49]
Tate Frazier
Well, at the same. It doesn't matter, Zach. You know what I mean? My rule is we'll learn your name when you become the greatest. Like, I didn't know how to spell giannis Antetokounmpo until 2018. You know what I mean? Like, that's the moment where I'm like, okay, I gotta write this name out and spell it out. We'll do that with Jaeger at some point. Hopefully. Treore is another one where it's like, yes, maybe this is the guard, you know, if it's not Ricky Rubio, maybe it's Johnny Flynn, maybe it's Ty Lawson, right? That's what it felt like with his nets. They just kept trying to throw, you know, guards out there to see that what was going to hit. I like Drake Powell, a great own ball perimeter defender. I went to the McDonald's All American Game this year, talked to some Brooklyn people. They told me then they love Drake, so they weren't really shy about the fact that they liked him and they ended up taking him. And then I thought Seraph and Danny Wolf, those are what I like to call neighborhood picks. I just think that they were like, look, we're in. We're in Brooklyn. Everybody's excited to have some guys out here that, like, want to be excited to play in Brooklyn. Danny Wolf, I mean, look at his brother. He's balling. Still crying. Still crying. So that was messy.
- [51:50]
Zach Lowe
Crying, too. That was.
- [51:51]
Mo DeKill
That was just.
- [51:51]
Zach Lowe
That was a mess.
- [51:52]
Mo DeKill
Stopping. That wasn't crying. That was actually full on sobbing.
- [51:55]
Tate Frazier
Most crying I've ever seen at the draft from the players, by the way, which kind of says something about the next generation. They're in touch with their emotions. Let's give them some credit. Shout out to those kids. They can feel what the. What's going on in their bodies. Shout out to them. But, yeah, I just think that this was a Brooklyn draft that would not be considered a great draft, but it is a very interesting draft, a very funny draft. And again, those last two picks felt like almost just for the crowd, like to get people excited to say, hey, we got d' Angelo Russell from Israel and we got Danny Wilson. Wolf, who you saw at Yale, in Michigan, he also plays point guard. So we got five Guards who are going to come in and, you know, I guess fit in in some way. They said they're going to bring everyone over. So Brooklyn, I don't know what the grade would be. I would assume it's trending down C minus or less. Zach.
- [52:39]
Zach Lowe
But, you know, I sure as hell have no idea. But I'm excited. You know, it's, it's interesting that like creativity and passing is a skill that people are reaching for. Like Yong in Portland, I think. You know, look, no one should say Jokic his name in a draft comp. Okay. Ever. It shouldn't come up. But, but just like size and creativity is a, is a prize thing now. And I, you know, the Nets are, are going for that. And I think, you know, look, they've set themselves up to tank this year by reacquiring their own pick from Houston in the McHale Bridges three team trade. They won too many games and everyone was wondering, well, are they going to try to load up this summer? And I've been saying for weeks, I don't think they're going to do that. I think they're going to tank again and collect young talent, take picks and salary dumps. And they already did that with Terrence Mann and that's what they're doing. And maybe the lottery gods will frown on them again or not reward them again, and that's just the risk you take. But I think, what else are they supposed to do? So that's them. Okay, let's see. Where do I want to go next? There's so much to talk about. Phoenix Mo. Phoenix acquires Mark Williams from Charlotte. Who's Charlotte just must have absolutely zero faith in Mark Williams ability to stay healthy and or become a serviceable rim protector. Because I kind of like Mark Williams. I had a long interview before last season with Charles Lee just raving about Mark Williams, one of the most mature players he's ever, he's ever coached. I've told this story before. They do these goals conferences. Charlie's like, Charles Lee likes to do these goal conferences before the season. It's the only player that came in with a, like they didn't even have to have a conversation. Mark Williams came in with an index card in four quadrants of different categories of goals and handed it to Charles Lee's like, hey, this is my goals you want to talk about. And Charles Lee had it laminated and posted in his office, like framed in his office. And they just have been doing nothing but trying to trade him for the last year. Obviously there's the aborted Lakers trade. And this is a little bit, a little bit less return than that. It was the 29th pick in this draft in the 2029 pick from Phoenix. Goodbye, Phoenix to all your picks. Yet again. Liam McNeely was selected at 29. He was weeping as well. I love it. I agree with you. Like, this is a huge moment. And by the way, like, we saw Flip hang out in the green room all last year and then have to go to the second green room in Brooklyn the next day. Like, Wolf and McNeely were probably like, thank God I don't have to do that. I'm here. I didn't just waste my time. So Phoenix, they trade for Mark Williams and like five seconds later, they draft Malawat from Duke. So they have, have they just instantaneously get two centers. And again, I, I, you know, I, I, as talent plays, like, if Malawatch falls to you at 10, you kind of have to take him. People are very high on him. The film on him is like outrageous. How big he is and how much stuff he can potentially do defensively. And you want to say, like, well, you know, Mark Williams can be like the current guy and Malawatch can be the next guy. Except Mark Williams has done next to nothing in the NBA himself because of all his injuries, you know, and here's where Phoenix is left with after all that. I have their depth chart somewhere. Here we are, starting lineup. I'm just projecting this out just for fun. Just, I like to do this for fun sometimes. Pause and do this. Devin Booker. I still haven't written my poem, Devin Booker's lament, which I'm gonna try to publish in the New Yorker. I joked, I joked about that earlier this week. Devin Booker's Lament. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out if it should be a haiku or a long form poem. I'm in contact with the New Yorker's poetry editors about how best to structure it. Devin Booker, Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks, Royce o' Neill. Mark Williams eligible for an extension. I just made that up. Maybe, maybe. I mean, that's something. And then off the bench I have Grayson, Allen, Bradley Beal, and just a bunch of big guys. Done. Malawatch. Nick Richards is still here. Iguidora I liked. Okay, I don't, I don't know where it's going or what it's leading to, but what do you see here, Mo? And what do you make of the Williams model? Watch. One, two. Acquisition punch. Within like 30 seconds of each other.
- [57:04]
Mo DeKill
Yeah, I think one. When I look at this Phoenix team, I just look at them going like, I don't know what, what the plan is in the short term in terms of building out, but I also don't think they have a plan in the long term for what they're building out. Like, I'm not sure if they really understand the assignment of what they got to do in terms of putting a team around Devin Booker and trying to, trying to compete in a very difficult conference in the West. You know, I think it's still going to be really tough for them across the board. I'm, you know, I like Dylan Brooks. I think, you know, he'll, he'll help there defensively for them and, and sort of be their guy on the perimeter with everything that they have. We know Booker probably going to have, hopefully have a bounce back year. I can't imagine he's going to be as bad as he was last year. I think, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how this whole thing kind of plays out. And then, and look, they went from having really no centers and that was the big thing to saying like, okay, we're going to go get two centers. I know the pick that they gave up in 2029 is most likely going to be a late draft pick and a late first round pick, but it's just when you don't have any picks, you know, any of your picks at all over the next few years. Like, I feel like it's hard to give up a, a pick in a situation where you're just looking.
- [58:13]
Zach Lowe
At least it's the, I believe it's the least favorable of Utah, Cleveland, Minnesota. That's that year.
- [58:20]
Mo DeKill
Zach, can we put a cap on, like when you get a pick swap and then just like, no, we can.
- [58:25]
Zach Lowe
Swap it 30 times. There's going to be a hack at some point that swapped with every team. Every team.
- [58:30]
Mo DeKill
I'm not smart.
- [58:31]
Tate Frazier
A promiscuous pick.
- [58:33]
Mo DeKill
Most favorable. Middle favorable. Like mildly favorable. Like, I don't like, this is too much, like, I'm, I'm, it's too much for me.
- [58:40]
Zach Lowe
You know what I'm waiting for? I'm actually waiting for a new version of the Marshawn Brooks, Dylan Brooks mess up where there's an error in which like, teams misunderstand which pick they've acquired or sent out in a trade and the league has to step in and figure it out. And there's a whole bunch of attorneys being like, well, I don't know, this was swamped with 20, 28 and 2029 and 20 32.
- [59:03]
Mo DeKill
It just messes you up in that sense. But I understand like they need, they had a need at centers, you know. And listen, if Mark Williams can stay healthy and you know, like I like the promise of Mark Williams. I like Milo Watch. I think he's got some development to do in terms of growing into a full time center in the NBA. I like what they got in him at 10 and you had to pick him at 10. I was a little bit surprised he got past Toronto, but I think this is the move there. I just don't know. When I look at the team, my expectations for them are very low for next season because I just don't see what they're going to be.
- [59:42]
Zach Lowe
Also still don't have a point guard on the roster right now and are over the second apron currently. Seems, seems like a problem. Look, I don't. What do you think of what were your, what was your Malawatch evaluation like? Obviously he's gigantic. He should be a rim protector. He's incredibly athletic. Catching lobs from all the great Duke guys who went all over the top of the draft. Like what do we think he can become?
- [60:06]
Tate Frazier
Tate, I will say this about Malawatch. The hands are great and there was a coach case story that Billis told that I had heard during the season about like how their first practice that K went to like Malawatch's hands. He was like, I'm worried about his hands. And they were like, what do you mean? He's. He's got great hands. He can catch the ball wherever. And they were like, no, from the dunking, like how much he was hitting the rim from blocking shots and dunking the basketball, they were like, we're worried he's going to hurt his hand. So I feel like as far as a lob threat, Malawatch checks all those boxes. The usage offensively was so low this year. Like when they did use him, he was incredible. The fact that he was able to catch so many different lobs from Flag. They had that little two man game going where Flag's like at the elbow and basically running high, low with Malawatch. I thought that was really great in the pick and roll, those two guys being able to play off each other. I think the real thing with me with Model Watch would be the motor. I would just want to make sure that he is actually as like locked in and you know, full throttle as you would need him to be to be your primary number one go to guy as your center. I'm a little bit worried there's A little bit too much finesse there. I'm a little bit worried. There's a little bit too much lackadaisical play at times. The engagement needs to be there, and I feel like if he has a point guard, which you mentioned, Phoenix does not have a point guard, so that does not help. But when you do have a point guard who can get your big, easy buckets, easy touches, get the basketball in their hand, I feel like the engagement in the game will get Malawatch involved, and I think he has a high upside if that's the case. But if you just let him kind of be out of the way and stay out of the way, I feel like it could go really sideways really quickly. So if I'm Phoenix, I'm making sure that you keep him engaged in the game, and I feel like then you get the full version of, you know, common model watch.
- [61:41]
Zach Lowe
You know, it's interesting. We. We talked about the spurs drafting for talent over fit by adding another kind of big guard. Talked about the Sixers drafting for talent over fit if you want to frame it that way by adding another guard slash. Wing center is the one position where I just. I think there is a bigger downside to doing that. We. Because they just can't play together the way you can throw guards and wings on the floor together. And we saw with Philly when they loaded up on Noel and Okafor and Embiid and on and on, and they just did not have minutes for these guys, and they had to sell Noel a little bit low in the end to that one. Didn't turn out to be that low because he's not in the NBA currently, but it.
- [62:25]
Tate Frazier
It.
- [62:25]
Zach Lowe
And so, like, I just don't see a, like a Mark Williams molo watch four or five combination happening, which is, you know, you can spin it this way. That's fine. My watch is. Is he. Is project too strong of a word?
- [62:38]
Desmond Bain
Tate?
- [62:39]
Tate Frazier
I think project's too strong of a word. I think he can actually play. Like, if you had to play him 10 to 15 spot minutes, like, if we're in the playoffs, like, I think he could actually do that and. And help you out. Right?
- [62:49]
Zach Lowe
So. So. So neither of them. It's okay to have both because you can look at them based on their experience levels and how far they have to grow in certain parts of the game. It's like, this is great. We can split 24 minutes each or 20 minutes, 20 minutes, and then we figure out the other eight minutes. Neither of them has to play a ton. Williams is an Injury risk. And so we need an insurance policy long term. And then you think, well, if I need that insurance policy and he is injurious, why am I trading all this stuff from. But I'm a Mark Williams. I like Mark Williams. Defensively is where he's just, he's really just got to dial in because he's just not good enough with his feet in the pick and roll. He's not good enough instinctually at the rim. Despite just the magnitude of his athleticism around the basket, he should be a much better rim protector. He does the thing where he jumps at shots way too late that he has no chance to get and there's rebounds behind him. But he's very toolsy on both sides of the floor. I, I have a ton of faith in his offense. He's a monstrous offensive rebounder. He's a monstrous lobby. Might be like a top three offensive rebounder in the NBA already when he plays. You talk to people in Charlotte and they were not blowing smoke. Like they didn't tell me this stuff for publication or whatever. Like they really think that he'll be able to shoot threes at some point in his career. Now he's got to shoot twos, like beyond the length of his arm first. But I think there's a real offensive talent there. It's just with these centers, it's not like he's ever going to be Shen Goon, like a point center, a post up center. He's only going to be able to show off so much of that talent, which means you really have to maximize what you are defensively as a rim protector and pick and roll barricade to make it. And I think the price they paid to me, I think Mark Williams is worth that bet. Even with Malawatch coming up behind him. I don't mind that. I just look at this team and look at all the picks that they're out and all the swaps that they're out and they're stuck with. Be I'm like, I just good luck pivoting into something that makes actual sense in the next two or three years. I don't know if they can do it.
- [64:50]
Mo DeKill
Zach, is there any chance they can get Beal to waive this no trade clause? I know it was crazy last year, but is there like, what would even be the market for Bradley Beal? Like, I don't even know if there's anybody that's going to be chomping at the bit to go trade for him. We obviously saw at the deadline there was nobody that was willing to try to make a. And the no trade clauses adds a wrinkle. But is there any way you think in just situation where Beal just looks around going like, I don't even want to be here and yeah, get me out of here.
- [65:20]
Zach Lowe
It actually makes me sad. This dude averaged 30 points a game in the NBA. He could play. He was an all NBA player. He was an all NBA player on my ballot at least once, if not twice. And now because of nothing he did wrong, really. Although he has not played enough due to health reasons. And you look at his numbers last year, you'd be shocked at how well he shot the ball. It's like people look at him as just this sun cause off the bench, 17 points on like 50, 40, whatever, shooting like he shot it really well last year. And because of the no trade clause which he asked for and got, he's just unmovable. My brain hasn't gotten there. Mo the last team I want to interrogate a little bit is, you know, I was a little flip earlier being like, can we pump the brakes on the Mavs as like a title contender? And I'm, I'm not backing off that at all. Particularly since I don't know when Kyrie is going to come back or, you know, the history of these kind of injuries is it's really 26, 27 when we can expect Kyrie to be Kyrie again. And Kyrie has been outstanding for the Mavericks when healthy. But I just want to interrogate that a little bit with you guys and you guys can test if was I being too flip dismissing them in the same breath as saying the west below Oklahoma City and Houston is like a little bit murky. Like there's a. There's a room for like a surprise four seed that makes a run. Right. Okay, so let's just plot out their starting five. This was the starting five that was like plastered across the airwaves last night. Kyrie injured. So, you know, do with that what you will. Clay aging, somewhat disappointing year one in Dallas. Cooper flag. Awesome. Cannot freaking wait for Cooper flag. No other things to say. He's going to be extraordinary. Anthony Davis insisting on playing the four. Congratulations. You've found a team that is willing to accommodate you and Derek Lively. Now you gotta pencil in somebody to start for Kyrie. Let's say free agent point guard X. Whether it's Spencer Dinwiddie or d' Angelo Russell already we are not contending for a championship. Now just based on that alone, any contention dreams this coming season are based On Kyrie coming back and being Kyrie, but the bench is actually like they've got some. Like we didn't mention PJ Washington I think could start in some circumstances. Najee Marshall was awesome for them last year in an expanded role. Gafford they just extended on a three year, $54 million deal, which is a great value for Daniel Gafford, by the way. Kyrie, I should mention, just extended on great. A great value deal in his own right. Max Christie, that's the appropriate role for him at this point. Like a solid two way wing off the bench, backup point guard. I don't know. I like the Brandon Williams kid. They've got Jaden Hardy hanging around and beyond that is Omax Prosper and some other. Some other, you know, play AD at the Five. Like that's not mo. Where. Like, what is that team? Like, let's. Let's imagine a world where Kyrie comes back ahead of schedule. Like let's say. What did I say? Got injured in. In January or something or. No, in March.
- [68:17]
Mo DeKill
March, March, March.
- [68:18]
Zach Lowe
Let's say he comes back in January and after a month of finding his footing, looks like Kyrie. What is that team?
- [68:27]
Mo DeKill
That's a really good basketball team, Zach. That's a team that you look at going like this is. I don't. I'm not going contender. I'm not going with the. The whole concept of Nico Harrison's vision of this is going to be a championship contender.
- [68:40]
Zach Lowe
I'm glad you said that. I couldn't believe this was a real quote. It added to the collection of I couldn't believe this was a real quote by a Dallas Mavericks executive in the wake of the Luka Doncic trade. And there are many. I mean, it's Tim McMahon tweets, Nico Maris, Nico Harrison on the Mavs winning lottery and the right to draft Cooper flag. Despite 1.8% off odds. Fortune favors the bold. So exciting. Things fell our way. So excited. It's so exciting. Fortune favors the bold. That's so what you're saying. The lottery guards rewarded us for being bold. Oh my.
- [69:15]
Tate Frazier
And bold.
- [69:16]
Mo DeKill
Bold is an interesting word to use, by the way.
- [69:18]
Tate Frazier
Bold, I guess does work in one way. Yeah.
- [69:21]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [69:22]
Mo DeKill
In a certain context of all that stuff. But I think there's, you can see kind of the seeds first off their front corners court, really solid defensively. I think with what you have. You have AD and excuse me, Lively starting and then Gafford coming off. You have a good amount of rim protection with. With everything that you got there. You have, you know, the. The front. The back court is what scares me because, like you said, Clay's aging, and even if Kyrie comes back healthy, the.
- [69:49]
Zach Lowe
The.
- [69:49]
Mo DeKill
The backcourt, the. The shooting guard position is where I'm going to really see a lot of weakness and all that stuff. And as. As great as Cooper Flag is, and I'm excited to watch Cooper Flag.
- [69:58]
Zach Lowe
He's still a rookie.
- [69:59]
Mo DeKill
Like, I'm not sure if he's coming in right away and going to just automatically lift all the things, all the problems that are with. Going on with the Maps throughout the course of the season, you know, with their questions defensively, with their shooting and things like that. He's going to help with everything, but I don't know if he lifts you up to that level where we're going to talk about them as like, this is a team that's going to be a threat to the Thunder, a threat to Houston. Watch out now, here they come. But they're a team that, if they can stay afloat till Kyrie comes and gets his footing, as you said, and it works out where it's not such a long Runway for Kyrie to get going. They're interesting, you know, because Najee Marshall showed a ton in that stretch towards the end of the season. I love P.J. washington. I think he does a great job. It fits in perfectly for them with everything that they do. Like, I like the way they're set up.
- [70:46]
Zach Lowe
It's just.
- [70:47]
Mo DeKill
I'm a little bit worried about the backcourt court. And again, if it's d' Angelo Russell as your starting point guard, all right, that's. That's more pressure on your front court at the rim, having to defend properly because he's going to give up a lot of drives to the basket. It's. Clay's not the guy he used to be. He's going to give up drives to the basket. Like, this is going to be one of those things where it puts pressure on your bigs to constantly erase mistakes over and over again and makes it difficult a little bit in the sense of having cohesion defensively. And then the other thing, we just. We have to just kind of bring.
- [71:18]
Tate Frazier
It up like 80.
- [71:19]
Mo DeKill
Like, how much. How dependent can you be in terms of health with him in that situation? It's something that you definitely have to be concerned. It's not fair to say, to project. You know, you're going to get X amount of games from him and. And things like that. He might have a fully healthy year, and then we'll talk about him differently. But I think it's one of those things you got to be concerned about with them. But if they can stay healthy, they'd be. They'd be interesting, and they'd be a team that we would say, excuse me, they could stay afloat. Oh, they're an interesting squad. And once Kyrie comes back, because then you're opening your eyes. Because if Kyrie comes back and can be Kyrie Irving again, of what we've seen, like. Like, him and A.D. i think, paired really well together. And then you have an opportunity for Cooper to attack the second side, which is going to be a little bit easier for the rook to be able to kind of attack a team rotating to him versus a standstill situation where, hey, go make something happen. I think we're looking at something where it's like, all right, there's a. There's something here. I just think we're still far away from that.
- [72:15]
Zach Lowe
How do you. How do you think he fits there Date?
- [72:17]
Tate Frazier
Yeah, I think it's a great fit. In general, I do like the Scalabrini. I know that scout kind of did a little bit too far. He's like, I think Cooper Flag will be a LeBron James figure. You know, when it's all said and done in, like, three years, you all will be saying, thank you, scowl for telling us. Now, I'm not sure I'm gonna go that far, but I do think that Cooper Flag has those tools to be a guy who is the guy, you know what I mean? Like, talk about a guy that wants to be the franchise guy. He has that mindset. I had a. A. A coach tell me an assistant coach. He was like, I kind of compare Flag, like Anthony Davis with an alpha mentality. You know what I mean? Like, that is what he is. He wants to be the guy. I think that's very encouraging if you're the Dallas Mavericks. The thing that concerns me the most with the Mavericks is Sean Sweeney going to the Spurs. The whole calling card of this team and Nico's whole mo is defense wins championships, while the guy who runs the defense just left your team to go to the Spurs. And he was the defensive coordinator. Kid had basically turned all things over to Sean. So now Sean is running the defense. Now he leaves. What is the Dallas defense look like without Sweeney? I'm fascinated to see that. Also, you got Kid talking to Flag about creating, you know, giving him the ball, let him dictate the offense. I find that fascinating. Like, how much is Kid gonna give him the keys next year as almost Like a trial period during this weird year where everybody's hurt just to get him the reps in for the next year. I think that would be the fascinating storyline with this team. But, but Cooper Flag is going to be good. I really, I don't think that's going to be an issue at all. And I think it's going to be.
- [73:46]
Zach Lowe
Fun to watch whatever happens in the next two years. Cooper Flag is the life raft that you needed after trading your previous life raft to the Lakers and leaving yourself exposed draft pick wise. That's what really matters here. You know, we'll see what they are in the short term. I think there's a, there's a very good team in here somewhere I'm skeptical about, you know, championship contention, real threat to the Thunder. And offensively, you know, you mentioned Flag creating and I'm just excited for everything that he can do. And if you want, if, if he is LeBron, I mean if he is that, if scowl's right, LeBron was in the Finals in like four or five years into his career with a, with a roster. Right. So just if that's what he is, then the conversation is different. I just, there are certain guys whose names I just don't think you should throw out in draft comps very often. And that's one. And just offensively, like AD at the 4 is, there's going, you know, people talk about chemistry and the time it takes and Luca and Kyrie have talked about how they needed that first year together or their first part of the year and the first camp together to really find their footing after they acquired Kyrie midseason. I think the same applies here. Like AD at the 4 again, not full time, but 70% of the time, 60% of the time with the, with the rim, running center and now a rookie and a point guard coming off an ACL tear. That's a lot, that's a lot to deal with. And we already saw AD on offense like taking a lot more mid range jumpers. Spacing the floor isn't the right term because he doesn't space the floor and trying to pick his spots and like that's a lot of work to do with the revamped coaching staff. All right, we covered a lot and Desmond Bain is coming on now. Mode to kill. Thank you, sir. Tate Frazier, one Shining podcast. It's great to see you and be your teammate. We covered everything, I think. Guys, thanks for coming on early in the morning, your time.
- [75:41]
Mo DeKill
Oh, thank you.
- [75:41]
Tate Frazier
For us, anytime you need us.
- [75:44]
Zach Lowe
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- [78:34]
Desmond Bain
Appreciate you having me, man. What's up?
- [78:36]
Zach Lowe
How you doing?
- [78:37]
Desmond Bain
Good, man. Real good. How you doing?
- [78:39]
Zach Lowe
I'm good. You look like you're doing good. You're gonna go for a swim later back there?
- [78:42]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, it's hard to beat out here, for sure. Hard to beat it.
- [78:47]
Zach Lowe
I heard you were at Game 7 of the NBA Finals. Is that true?
- [78:51]
Desmond Bain
Very true. Very true. Yeah, it was Crazy environment, and I know you are.
- [78:56]
Zach Lowe
You have a good relationship with Tyrese. What was it? Where were you sitting? What was it like seeing that happen? Did you get to talk to him after the game at all? I mean, it's. It's an all time. I'm still not over it, and I'm just a guy who was a neutral observer of the game.
- [79:11]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, I was. I was actually texting with him this morning, just more so about life than. Than anything. And, yeah, it was. I mean, it was. It was hard to tell, like, because when it's live, you know, it's. It's hard to pick up on the small nuances and things like that that's going on, but, you know, once you saw him, you know, not getting up off the floor and the way the team and trainers and things like that were reacting, you could tell it was. Was. It was something serious. And I was just hoping, you know, for the best for him, but, you know, he's Seems like he's in decent spirits, and, you know, he's. I'm sure he's going to attack this rehab and get back and be better.
- [79:52]
Zach Lowe
What was it like to be in the building for Game 7 of the NBA Finals? First Game 7 in nine years for the Finals.
- [79:57]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, it was. It was crazy. One of my friends that I took with me, he was, you know, like, in the middle of the game, like, basically saying, thank you for. For taking us. And. And it's crazy how crazy we are to be here. And in that moment, like, it was hard for me to accept what he was talking about just because I. I want to be there. I want to be the one that, you know, my family and friends are coming to check out. But. But it was. It was definitely a great experience and something I hope to be A part of you were.
- [80:26]
Zach Lowe
I, I listened to you with my friend Tommy Alter on Young man in the three last week week. You were not totally shocked to be traded. It sounds like the Grizzlies kind of prepped you a little bit that the door was going to be open. And what I had heard was in exit interviews with Zach Kleiman, the gm, he kind of told, told you and maybe some others for the first time. Like, I, I can't sit here and say to your face like, there's a 100% chance you're going to be on the team next year. Is that about when it happened?
- [80:54]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, that's, that's exactly, exactly what happened. I mean, it was, it was different extra interviews, you know, all the way around. You know, I mean, we just got swept, you know, so that was a sour, sour note to, to go out on. But then, you know, the vibe around the building is, is coached. Is Tomas going to be the coach? Like, you go into the exit interviews and, and like you said, Zach was, was upfront and honest with, with a few of us and told us like, hey, look, there's a, there's a possibility, I can't guarantee anything. And, and you know, next thing you know, here, here I am.
- [81:30]
Zach Lowe
And now you're a member of the Orlando Magic. I've already talked about the trade. I think the fit is awesome. I, I don't. I love them just saying, you know what, this is our guy. We're going to throw four picks out and we're going to get this guy. This is our guy. How much time? I think you're in Florida right now, right?
- [81:45]
Desmond Bain
I'm, I'm back in Texas.
- [81:47]
Zach Lowe
You're back in Texas now?
- [81:48]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, it's at the lake house. I'll, I'll be going down to Orlando here in about 10 days and go start finding a place to live and getting acclimated with the guys and stuff.
- [81:57]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. Have you spent any time in person with Franz and Paolo yet?
- [82:02]
Desmond Bain
I haven't, I haven't. I think Franz is doing like some international stuff this summer. And Pete, I think he's out in Seattle doing his thing. We've texted both of us multiple times, but we'll have plenty of time to connect for sure.
- [82:17]
Zach Lowe
And I assume you are excited about the fit. I heard you joking with Tommy, like, yeah, we're, we're like the three point stats, we're going to change those real fast. But like, like, you, you do fit right in. And I think, you know, for people who may not have watched the Grizz that closely over the last couple of years when Ja's been out, you've taken a much bigger playmaking load and I think gotten comfortable in, in that kind of lead guard role. And it's something that, like, you know, if Franz is on the bench or Paulo's on the bench, like, you can lift up. It's not, it's not like you're just running around shooting threes. You can bring a lot to this team. Are you, are you pumped about, about the fit and, and what you guys can do in the East?
- [82:52]
Desmond Bain
I don't think there could have been a much better fit. I mean, you put me next to a guard like Jalen Suggs that plays both sides of the ball, dynamic, plays with speed in the open court. Really shown promise shooting the ball too over the past year or so. Franz obviously like a do it all 3 better defender than a lot of people, you know know. And you know, you saw what he was doing in the, in the playoffs against Boston and what he's capable of. And obviously Paul is, you know, gonna be a first team all NBA type guy, you know, for probably multiple years in his career. And big Dale, Wendell, I mean, just shooting five, strong physical switch one through five. I think that it fits like a glove. And like you said, like, my skill set is something that I think that can really help take some pressure off of Franz and Paulo Suggs and, and all the guys. So I'm excited to, to get to work and go make something happen in the East.
- [83:55]
Zach Lowe
I actually thought given the injuries they had and the uphill battle they were facing, that they played Boston pretty tough in the first round of the playoffs. I don't know if you're obviously in your own first round series. I don't know how much of that you got to watch or like how much of Orlando you just like as a league pass junkie you've watched over the years. But like, what if. How much did you get to watch that series at all? Or have you gone back and watched it since being on the team?
- [84:18]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, I watched it as much as I could while it was going on. And I mean, defensively they're, they're a nightmare. I mean, they got size and mobility all over the floor. And you combine that with Paulo and Fran's ability to attack, you know, whether it's smaller guys, bigger guys, it really makes, makes problems for, for a lot of teams. And like you said, I mean, they weren't, they weren't healthy. So it's like they're still trying to gel and, you know, I'll be new, so we're all going to try to gel and, you know, find our niche and our groove. They started out the season like 4 or 5 and 1. Paolo went for, like, 50 or whatever before he ended up hurting his oblique. So I think that the talent's there, the pieces are there. More importantly, the culture's there. Great people across the board. Like, it starts with Jeff and Coach Mose, but, I mean, the players that they have in the building, like, I don't see any reason why we can't be making a deep run.
- [85:18]
Zach Lowe
Why not? You mentioned Jamal Mosley. Moes, you have deep ties to the state of Texas, including college. You were the 30th pick in the draft in 2020. A lot of buzz that the Dallas Mavericks were thinking about taking you, and they went a different direction, which I'm sure you have not forgotten. Jamal Mosley was on that staff in Dallas. Have you had this conversation yet with him?
- [85:42]
Desmond Bain
I haven't, but now that you bring that up, that's something we're definitely going to have to talk about.
- [85:48]
Zach Lowe
You still, you remember. Do you remember all the teams that passed on you?
- [85:50]
Desmond Bain
I do. I. I remember. I mean, that night, like, it was just yesterday. I mean, it was. It was cool. It's always cool this time of year, seeing everybody else's dreams become reality and stuff like that. But obviously, a big night for me and my family, for my career, and, yeah, I. I won't forget, but. But I'm super happy to. To be in. In Orlando, and I think everything happens for a reason. So. So Mose and I, we. We. We found each other at the right time.
- [86:18]
Zach Lowe
No, I'm not. I'm not saying he had any role in that decision, but I'm saying you got to get. Now you got the inside look at, like, all right, what was going on in the draft room.
- [86:24]
Mo DeKill
How.
- [86:25]
Zach Lowe
How did you guys. I'm right in your backyard at tcu. Like, how did this happen?
- [86:28]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, I got. I got a nice little talking point for sure. With him. For sure.
- [86:34]
Zach Lowe
One of my favorite things about watching you play. And again, you were the 30th pick, so it's not like you walk in and like, I'm the guy, the ball's going to be with me. Like, blah. You play with such fearlessness. Like, now you will. You will take threes that there's only four or five guys in the league who will take contested, pull up, like, hand in your face kind of threes, and you make enough of them and I call you the Bane train in transition because like, you're like Josh Hart. It's like one on three, one on two. I'm just going full speed and you can get in front of me. And if you get in front of me, it's going to hurt you and I'm going to finish. But like, did you. Was it, was it. What steps did you have to take to get to a place where you're like, I'm just going to play with zero fear, zero worry that anyone's going to maybe question this shot. Like, I know my game and I know I can play this way. And I don't care that I'm the 30th pick or that we have this star over here, this star. Was it hard to get to that place or is that just naturally how you play?
- [87:30]
Desmond Bain
I think that's how I came up. You know, I mean, we played at this park called Clear Creek park in Richmond. And I remember being a young guy that nobody would pick up and then, you know, you get your chance and, you know, you gotta fight for everything. So like, I think it started, started there for sure. And then my, my work has, has carried me since then. I mean, going to tcu, like, I, I didn't have any high major offers. TCU was the only one that, that I had. And I got that like two weeks before I graduated high school school. So quick turnaround, like, you know, all the things are going through your head, should I just win a mid major? Like, am I good enough to play high major? You know, but, but that fearlessness and that work is, is what carried me there and it worked for me there. So, so why change you?
- [88:18]
Zach Lowe
You. You were late to get picked in these pickup games. You were like a bottom.
- [88:22]
Desmond Bain
And I come From a town of 30, 000 people, you know, so it's not like there's the best players, but it's just like shoot the old heads is on the court, like you got to pay your respects or whatnot and, and earn their respect. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you get on the court, like the only time they gonna pick you up next time we run is if you go out there and do something. So, you know, that's, that's kind of how, how all. That's all that went down.
- [88:48]
Zach Lowe
We're gonna get back to the magic in a second. But I would be remiss as an interviewer if I did not ask you. You, you had an interesting few years in Memphis as a team in some completely unusual, like unique to you guys circumstances. I just wonder what it's like from your perspective. What is it like when that video footage of Jah in the club in Denver comes out and the other stuff, the other video footage comes out and you realize something's happening here. What's up? We got someone in the background. Something's happening here. And this guy might not be on our team for a while because there's going to be a penalty here. And also, like, a human element of what's actually going on in this guy's life. Do you reach out to him? Do you talk to him and just, like, take me through the day when that, like, the TMZ footage comes out and all this, you're like, oh, my God, our life as a team is about to change.
- [89:41]
Desmond Bain
Nah. I mean, Jaw is a great dude, first and foremost. You know, whether we're at the house kicking it or we're out in the city doing something. Like, he's always the first one to invite everybody somewhere, the last one out of there, making sure everybody gets back where they need to go. So he's a great teammate and great person. And, you know, everybody makes mistakes. Like, I've made plenty of mistakes, and I just so happen not to be, you know, somebody who. Others want to be the face of the league, you know what I'm saying? And I think he's grown past it. And all my time that I had in Memphis was great, and I wouldn't change it for anything. You know, I think it was, you know, great, great experiences for me, both on and off the court, and I'm excited for this next chapter in Orlando.
- [90:31]
Zach Lowe
It's interesting. Despite the ups and downs and despite the fact that he was suspended for a while, like, you guys all speak very, very highly of jot. As a teammate and a person like that, you never wavered on that, for sure.
- [90:43]
Desmond Bain
I mean, it's. It's easy to look from outside, you know, and come up with your own opinions or may be. But when you get to know somebody, you know their heart. It's. It's. It's. No, it's no question in anything how.
- [90:58]
Zach Lowe
Much of a struggle with. With the change in the offensive system last year was there for you guys? Like, going away from the pick and roll and all the movement that caught everybody by surprise at first, like, whoa, there's nothing like this in the NBA. What's happening? How. How hard was that?
- [91:10]
Desmond Bain
I mean, I remember training camp vividly. Like, I felt like one of my superpowers was just, like, randomness, like, Being able to run and. And kind of get away from defenders, create separation. Roach, who was my player development coach, was like, hey, we. We. We need you to. To. To cut here. We need you to feel behind here. Like, the only way this is going to work is if everybody is on the same page doing the same thing. And we started out the season, kind of sort of bought into it, sort of not bought into it. I got hurt about four or five games in, and then probably by about game 10, we started catching our stride. I was still out at the time, but I'm watching, you know, and I'm like, man, like, this is. This is really working. So whenever I came back, like, I was like, man, like, this is working. I'm. I'm fully bought into it. And, like, the first eight games or so, like, I was. I was struggling, you know, like, wasn't. Wasn't able really to find my pockets or. Or whatnot. But we're winning by 40 points, 50 points. So I'm like, man, this is, like, I'm fine. Like, as long as this is what y' all expect of me, like, I'm. I'm fine with it, you know? And then I started catching my stride, finding my pockets and how to maneuver in that offense. And me and Noah grew a lot. It started out a little rocky, you know, but. But we grew a lot. I. I just talked to him the other day, you know, so. So I think that it was a great experience for me. Like, it showed me that regardless if I'm in Memphis, regardless if I'm in Orlando, regardless if I'm somewhere else, understand certain systems. Like, there. There are different ways to skin a cat and different ways for. For me to thrive. So it gave me a lot of confidence as a player that, you know, you can drop me anywhere and. And I'll find a way.
- [92:56]
Zach Lowe
Is there. I know it's early. You know, you haven't gotten to get to know the system and teammates and all that stuff quite yet in Orlando. But even separate from Orlando, or maybe specific to it, is there any aspect of your game, like a small aspect on either end of the floor, offense, defense, where you are, like, I'm dialed in on getting better at that little thing, particularly in this new context in Orlando.
- [93:18]
Desmond Bain
Yeah, I think you kind of touched on it. You know, I mean, Jalen obviously is going to be on the ball a lot, Paulo and Franz, but really being able to organize offense and be, like, an initiator for offense, you know, I'm not sure, like I said, exactly what my role is going to be like, I feel like I can bring the movement, shooting, the spacing, secondary playmaking and things like that, but being able to initiate offense against pressure. You know, you see the Indiana as you see the teams that are. That were still playing at the end, like, they apply a lot of pressure, full court for the whole course of the game. So it's like not only working on that skill, but your conditioning to be able to tolerate that for. For a full 48 minutes, you know, for. For 20 games long of a playoff run is. Is what's on my mind.
- [94:09]
Zach Lowe
You bring up Indiana and I'll let you go to a couple minutes. But it jogged my memory. Like, everyone around the league, I think I've talked to GMs and coaches and players is watching this. Watch this playoff run from Indiana, which I think even if you were a Pacers optimist, it was surprising how far they got and that they were one win from the NBA championship and thinking, like, what can we take from that? Like, what should the lessons of that be? So when you watch the Pacers play, like, what. What did you take from it?
- [94:39]
Desmond Bain
Togetherness. They. They compete like crazy on both ends of the floor. Like, they're going to make you work on offense, they're going to make you work on defense. And I mean, I think there's. There's not. Not every team has a Tyrese Halliburton, you know, a superstar that's willing to. He gets criticized for it, but shoot six shots. Some games shoot 15 shots. Other games like that trickles down throughout the entire team. Like, I mean, you have different guys on different nights, whether it's Siakam, Obi, Toppin, Miles Turner, Nimhard Niecemith, like, that stuff's hard to replicate. And like, the only way that. That you have that is. Is if you have an unselfish leader. And, you know, I think that. That they don't get enough credit for. For the type of people that they brought into the facility like, that are okay with sometimes taking a backseat and being like, I'm happy for my other man's success, you know, and they obviously have that. That competitive edge to them. So I think it's easy, you know, every year after the finals to be like, man, like, I want to be like Indiana. I want to be like okc. I want to be like Boston or Denver. And it's like, it's. It's hard to. To do that. Like, I think that you need to. You can take small bits and pieces, you know, from what you see, but you can't lose sight of your own identity and who you, you are and what you've built. So I think it's a, it's a little bit of a double edged sword.
- [96:04]
Zach Lowe
So you just said the I word and we'll end with this identity. And I, I don't remember who it was, but someone was saying after the Magic traded for you, like, why can't Orlando be the next Pacers, the next team that makes a big leap that we didn't see necessarily coming this far. And initially I was like, well, they don't really play anything like the Pacers. They don't have a Halliburton. They're a different kind of team. But what you, what the Magic do have and the identity is defense, physicality and toughness. And like we are going to be nasty to play against and you were going to feel it and if you have to play us in a seven game series, you are really going to feel it. Is that, I mean you only played them twice a year in the opposite conference, but is that like, can you lean even further into that? Because I, it hurts to play against the Magic, man.
- [96:53]
Desmond Bain
It really hurts 100, I mean a thousand percent. And I mean I think that's what our front office has done a good job of doing. Like you like same way that we're talking, talking about Tyrese Halliburton as a leader and like go get unselfish guys, selfless guys, like the magic of rounding out the roster with guys that are hard nosed, tough, like to work. So I think it's like the front office understands what they want the play, have the players that fit the mold and a coach who can be the driving piece to all of it and that's why their identity is so strong. And I'm super excited to be able to part of a, of a team like that. You know, when I was in Memphis, like we have talks with Z Bo and other people from the grit and grind era and you know, I love to create something like that in Orlando for sure. Being known for our rugged, hard nosed, you know, basketball.
- [97:47]
Zach Lowe
I like that the Magic is the natural heirs to the grit and grind Grizzlies and you're you as a connective piece between the two. Desmond Bane. If people haven't watched the Grizzlies too much, they have no idea how good you are. They're going to find out real soon because the Orlando Magic are going to win a lot of games next year. Enjoy what's left of your off season and thanks for making a little time, sir.
- [98:06]
Desmond Bain
Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.
- [98:10]
Zach Lowe
All right, that's it for today's Zach Low Show. Thank you to Tate Frazier. Thank you to Mo De Kill for educating us all about the draft. Thank you to Desmond Bain for popping on. Thanks to Jesse John and Isaiah on production. We will see you next week on Monday, barring something insane happening between now and then, which is the NBA, you never know. But if not, we'll see you Monday morning on the Zach Lowe Show. Thanks for listening, thanks for watching, thanks for consuming however you do it. We'll see you next week. Must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. gambling problem called One Day 100 Gambler or visit FanDuel.com RG call 1-887-789-7777 or is it ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland? Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text Hope NY in New York.