← The Zach Lowe Show
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A
This episode is brought to you by new era the 90s weren't just a decade, they were a moment. And now it's back. Introducing the new era NBA Hardwood Classics 90s edition. Bringing back the golden era of basketball with iconic teams like the Bulls, the Rockets, the spurs, the Suns, the Pistons. Yeah, that's the 90s. That could be the teal horse Pistons. The Hornets are the classic 90s team. The original teal stuff. The Hornet buzzing around any old school Bulls, Warriors. That's the kind of stuff that I love. That's kind of NBA Jam kind of stuff. That's what we're talking about. Plus 90s all star games caps complete with host team side patches for that authentic throwback feel. Available in a wide range of fitted and adjustable styles. Visit neweracap.comringer to shop now and use the one time code Ringer for 20% off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here so celebrate it with fresh, juicy seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending Mango Yuzu Chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 Strawberry Pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Coming up on the Zach Glow Show. We are a week away from the NBA draft and there's all sorts of scuttlebutt. Jay Kyle Mann, the ringers draft guru is here to sort it all out for us. We talk about the top of the draft. Who's Washington going to take? Is it going to be Debanza? All this Utah noise. There's issues with Buck Kessler. Are there really? Darren Peterson's not going to work out there. Is there a window for Cam Boozer to move up to number two? Obviously Carlos Boozer works with and for the Jazz. What does that all mean? How is this top four actually going to shake out? And then we just get into the nitty gritty of a bunch of different guys that Kyle knows very well and I know not very well at all because I just did just enough video to be dangerous and have some hot takes. We talk about the Michigan guys. We talk about all the guards. What are the Clippers going to do? What should the Clippers do? Should Darius Garland matter in terms of who they draft? Like how, how Much should fit matter. That's a debate for Washington. It's a debate for Utah. We talk all about that. And then Jared Weiss from the Athletic is here to put the spurs season to bed. Did Wemby really become a villain? Did it happen that fast? Why did it happen? What happened? How would we grade his performance in the finals? What did the spurs do this summer? Forget long term. We'll talk about the Dear and Fox question. What are they to do this summer to address some of the needs that kind of popped up for them in the Finals? What should their finals takeaway be? What's the future of this team? How soon are they going to be back? And then all things Wemby that's coming up on the Zach Low Show. Welcome to the Zach Low show, where we are one day away from Croatia's debut in the 2026 World cup and one week away from the NBA draft, which sadly for me coincides with Croatia's second game in the 2026 World cup, which I will be attending in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Suboptimal timing, NBA. You move the draft back, it's always on Thursday. You move it to a Tuesday. What are you doing to me? Kyle Mann is here. How are you doing, sir?
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B
I'm doing pretty well. I wish I had a soccer team to be as enthused as you are. I mean, I guess I'm an American. I guess that's.
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C
But we're just.
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A
We're never very guys. Beat Paraguay. Watch out. Best start ever in a World Cup.
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B
I try to get interested and then, you know, they, the first half, they put some goals in and I was like, maybe I'll tune in at halftime. And then they immediately started to kind of hit turbulence and I was like, it was me. It was my fault. So I just turned it off. I'm gonna just stand back and pick a. Pick a more karma friendly entry point for the.
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D
For the world.
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A
Hey, look, Croatia's getting old. We were old last time playing England in the first game. We're going to be underdogs in that game. Might recall we beat England in the 2018 World cup semifinals in an absolute thriller. One of my favorite sports memories ever.
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B
I talk about it all the time.
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A
Yeah, that's a. I'm just saying. I'm just saying right now, just, they're old. They have had miracle runs the last two World Cups. Their luck is due to run out of some point. Overlook Little Croatia, population 3.9 million. Overlook them at your peril because they seem to find a way second place in 2018, third place in 2022. Okay, Kyle Mann. We're a week out of the draft. Everyone is on Giannis watch. Giannis watch could impact the draft, particularly if it ends up being Miami. And as of right now, at 10:54am Eastern Standard Time on Tuesday, June 16, I don't really have another team other than Boston or Miami that I can say is like, with confidence that they're truly in on Giannis. And I don't know the degree to which Boston is truly in. Onion. I think they're in. I think there's something going on, but it's hard to get a read on exactly what the machinations are and how serious they are. But I like the contract and Giannis's leverage here has definitely sort of turned some other teams away. Like a team like the Cavs. They can't trade Evan Mobley on the hope that they can convince Giannis to resign there. And there's a bunch of teams sort of in that situation. But we are, we will wait and we will see what the deal ends up being in the meantime. Are you ready? Portland's not.
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B
Portland's not a factor anymore. I mean, they were kind of sniffed kicked.
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A
Yeah, I think they'd love to be a factor. Their owner just won the Stanley cup, so he's probably riding high, thinks he can do no wrong again, if he's not indicating he's going to sign there. I'm not really sure what you can give up if you're Portland. They always made sense to me as a third team in any, any kind of deal because they have some of the Milwaukee draft assets. I always like to. If Boston does move, like, does Jalen Brown go to Portland in a connected deal or in a separate deal? Like, it could be a two team deal. And then Milwaukee flips Jalen Brown later. We will, we'll see. We'll see. We're going to learn. Are you ready for the draft? Do you feel prepared?
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B
It's a, it's a long process to get to the point where I don't know that I always say this. Every year you, you get to this, this stage and you've, you kind of. I always have like a momentary panic where, you know, I'm like, oh my God, did I study for the test enough? You know, but then I'm like, it's a gradual build. You, you watch these guys little. Hopefully by this time of year, if you're in my position or you're somebody watching the draft, the, the tape has kind of piled up to the point where I feel like my opinions are set. There are some kind of the playoffs, definitely covering it on the group chat show and talking about it step by step the way that we do. It's definitely made me kind of recontextualize some guys and we can get into that here or there as needed. But yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm ready. I'm ready. Yeah. And I've. Let's commit to something.
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A
I've done my annual YouTube. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous Dive on maybe 17 of the players in the draft. Hannes, what's his last name? Hannes Steinbach. Steinbach. My guy, Hannes Steinbach. I just watched 15 minutes of him on YouTube. I got all sorts of hot takes on him. That's where every. That's where my post finals life has taken me to Hannes Steinbach YouTube clips. This is what we are. What's your.
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B
Well, I'm curious, Zach. What's your. Like, what's your keyword usage? Are you going. What's your entry point? Are you. Are you. Are you doing like, University of Washington YouTube page? Like, there's some. There's some dubstep.
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A
It's more elementary than that. I just type the guy's name in and see what comes up.
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B
Okay.
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A
There's a couple of games I've watched. Like I watched Peterson vs. DeBancer in high school. I watched that game. Let's start one of those. Let's start there. The most interesting draft noise that came out this week was this Utah scuttlebutt that same Amic reported yesterday, and it was two and Sean's reported it as well. Two connected but not entirely disconnected pieces of information. Number one, Darren Peterson will not work out or has not worked out for Utah and plans only to visit slash workout with the Washington Wizards, who have the number one pick in the draft. I don't think, let's say I know that this did not come as a surprise to the Utah Jazz. I think, of course, they would prefer to get everybody who would be in their draft range in the building for a workout. I don't think that tweet came out and they were like, oh, my God, I know that tweet didn't come out. And they're like, oh, my God. They knew that this was a possibility and a likelihood and then connected to that. Sam Amick reports that Walker Kessler's early free agency restricted free agency after there was no extension. Talks are going badly and that there's some sort of fracturing perhaps in the relationship between Walker Kessler, his agents at CIA and the Utah Jazz. You put those things together and you start to wonder, is there a world where Cam Boozer actually goes number two to Utah? Like if Kessler is no longer in their long term plans And I don't think that's the case, but we'll see. I'm just playing devil's advocate. That's one less big that they are like pot committed to for a long time. And if Peterson is refusing to work out there. Well, what if Boozer does work out there? Well, obviously they have Carlos Boozer on staff. They know a lot about Cam Boozer. Is there an actual opening for that to happen? Bill has been talking about that for a while. I personally all. I'm not a draft Nick. You are all the scouts I talked to still expect if they had to bet on it, that debancer goes number one to Washington. I think I have no idea. It's not like I can call Michael Winger and will Dawkins be like, hey guys, who are you taking? I'm going to do, I'm going to, I got a podcast in 20 minutes. Let me know who you're taking. Let me know how I can phrase it. That's just what other people believe. Is that what you believe? And then what do you think of this stuff with number two and Utah and Peterson and Boozer?
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B
Well, you know, I've caught wind, I've caught in, that's, I've caught wind of, of Kessler, Utah sort of turbulence. There's that word again where in the past, you know, he had to go down and play summer league. And I know there were discussions about it. I've always kind of sensed that there's been some, some back and forth in that relationship that's been tense at times. So I, I think that's a pre existing condition with them. And also his availability has been pretty up and down and I think you could see some teams across the league who are in need of maybe an asset that could be quotes distressed that maybe they think could outperform what they might end up having to pay for him. You know, I've, I've heard teams like the Lakers kicking him around, but I, I think Kessler does have some promise as a room protector. So I would be interested to see what the, the, the market for him would be. But you're right, when I saw that I definitely did the windy fingers and was looking at, I was like, are they maybe clear, you know, freeing themselves up to not be committed to paying this guy if they do end up, you know, going with Boozer. The interesting thing about Boozer, if he ended up with the Jazz is, you know, you could speak to this part is the marking in Jaren Jackson Jr. And Boozer trio is something that I honestly wonder it could even potentially play together. Because if you've got the switchability of Jackson and Boozer Markkin and maybe not so much, but both of those guys can kind of attack the basket. They're not guys with like mid range game. I mean Jackson has a little bit of that push shot in the middle of the lane, but you'd be, you'd have spacing with Markkanen. Starting from the premise of those three big guys, you could be huge and I think it would be kind of functional on the floor together in so much as you've seen Boozer. Would you do you see that? That's something that's feasible.
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A
Okay, so a couple of things. The fit versus talent thing is so interesting even for the first two picks. Like you could make a pretty easy argument that Peterson and his skill set is a quote better fit for Washington then Dan and Washington is so strange because you have to remind yourself, oh my God, like Anthony Davis is on the team and Trey Young is on the team and Alex Sar just broke his foot. He had surgery or did something to his foot. I can't remember exactly. Let's assume he's fine if you're going to draft dance a one, he's huge as a three. So you have Daban Sar Davis and then a lot of your other big prospects are like Koula Bali is a 3 4, Keyshawn George is a 3 4. Like who's, who's the starting two. You just drafted Trey Johnson. I don't know what that would mean for him, but. And then in Utah you're talking about like all these big guys. I, I was a couple of things. If I were Washington and I really like Darren Peterson and I wanted in my gut to take him, I would not be worried about Trey Johnson and how that's going to work and how that's going to fit. They're different players and Peterson is a higher level prospect. Just I'm not worried about it. Similarly, an interesting subplot is that the team formerly Wasserman represents both Keonte George and Darren Peterson. And I wonder if they are worried about those two players sort of cannibalizing each other's touches and roles In Utah if the Jazz draft Peterson. If I were Utah, I would not be worried about that either two really Talented combo guards who can shoot threes and pass. Like, oh my God, what am I going to do? How am I going to possibly figure that out on Boozer? So there's always a guy that I do my 15 minutes of YouTube just enough to be dangerous. Deep, shallow dive. It's not a dive. It's like I dip my toe in and the water's cold and I jump out. Who I end up liking way, way more than I did before. Based on very cursory to no college basketball watching. Last year it was concanipple. This year it's even a more chalk choice. I watched Kam Boozer play one full game in college and came away underwhelmed even though he had like 20 and 12. And apparently that's what he does. He underwhelmed and he's like 20 and 12. My. I watched like half an hour of film on him. I was like, holy fuck, this guy is good. And like, I would like, I just think he's awesome. I think he should be in the conversation at 1, 2. All the, all these top four guys are absolutely incredible. It's why I don't buy any noise about Chicago trading down. There was just like, are they trying to trade? I don't see that happening. But Boozer is so smart and so crafty and has the super high IQ where his vision and his IQ make him faster and more athletic than he actually is because he's outthinking everybody on the court. And he has such a smart sense of anticipation and angles. Combine that with the workable three point shot, at least in college. A nasty streak, an ability to handle the ball in the pick and roll screen in the pick and roll. I fucking love that guy. I think he's going to like defensively, I guess there are some questions. Is he a 4? Is he a 5? Is he both? I think he's going to walk in and be a really good NBA player right away. And I'm not sure either of these teams, any of these teams are at the point where they can just be like, well, we have a lot of bigs we can't take. If you think he's the best, you should take him. That I just, I have no idea if he's going to go 2, 3 to Memphis has been the chalk pick. I. If Utah actually took him at 2 and resigned Kessler, I would be like, okay. They just think Cam Boozer is awesome. I don't really fault them for it.
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B
Yeah, let's. Let's talk Boozer here. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about Boozer. Where people see him and they, they're lulled to sleep by the. When you compare it with the shot making, sort of the sexiness of the shot making of the Darren Petersons and the, and the athleticism and the size of Debons and things like that, and those things are all valid and very exciting. And those guys. There's a world where all three of these dudes are really good players. And all three of these teams, all four of these teams at the top or maybe even beyond to come away happy because there's so many good players. But there are some misconceptions about Boozer. They see him, I think they think of his dad. They see back to the basket. It's kind of slow, it's methodical, but you hit on it. It's where this, this guy's a high level processor on both ends of the floor. He's a very smart offensive player. I think he's the highest processor of the top five. I think he's the best passer in between the guys that are considered the top three. And you look at him and his like diet of how he approaches and how he's used is very wide ranging. I mean he has the post up game people kind of fretted about. There was a game against Virginia in the ACC tournament where he got his shot blocked a few times. Some caveats to that for the people who point to that one over and over again. Virginia has a couple of pretty good rim protectors. Ugan on Yensu and then. And then Johan Grunlow. I know those are random names that I could have just made up, but those guys can protect the rim. They're pretty good for the college level. And he was playing without a point guard. They run everything through him anyway. He was ramming his head. He'd been carrying a heavy load. He got a shot, but I, I just don't give a. He also has, he has the post up game, Zach, but he also has pick and roll game and spot up game. That's pretty legitimate. You know, this past year on, let's see, pushing 50 attempts from three on catch and shoots. He was at 49%. He can, he ran a lot of four or five pick and roll for Duke.
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A
Where he saw it, it was very exciting.
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B
He was shoot.
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D
He.
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B
He shot 42% on pull up threes from in. In the pick and roll. So this is a guy that I think, as much as people want to stereotype him, he moves better than I think people give him credit for. I think you're 100% correct. I was arguing this to Bill and House the other day. I was. I, I think he would make Washington a serious basketball team immediately. I, I think. And that he'd make every player that they have better. Those other guys are good, but I, I think Boozer's a winner and I think he's going to be a great player for a long time in the.
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A
And again, like Washington is, has a huge front line to consider already. Utah has a huge front line to consider already. I think Utah is going to make all. I, I don't think Utah is flustered by any of this noise. I don't. They just took Ace Bailey where the noise was just like way louder than this. I don't think they expected Darren Peterson to come in. I don't think they're surprised that he's may not. I don't think they care. If they think he's the best fit for their team, they're going to take him. I think they could even resign Kessler and take Kam Boozer if they think that's the best course of action for their team short term and long term. By the way, from what I've heard, they made Walker Kessler. They've made Walker Kessler a pretty fair offer. An offer I would consider pretty fair, like a dollar amount that I think people would be like, wow, he's, he's turning up his nose at that. That's a lot. And I think what he's turning up in his nose at is when other teams began investigating the trade market for Walker Kessler last year just to kick it around. And I think Indiana was the most high profile of those and it's been reported, obviously then, you know, some numbers are kicked around theoretically, and they're pretty high. And so that's what they found. And here we are. I think there's an honest intent there to bring back Kessler. I don't, I don't think this noise bothers them either. But man, these guys at the draft are at the top of the draft are like awesome. All four of these guys are awesome and all four of them have fans in every front office of the top four teams. I have no idea what the order is going to be. The consensus would seem to be the closest into consensus would seem to be Debanza Peterson, Boozer Wilson. Is that, is that still like the, the betting, like favorite or the like the intel favorite order?
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B
I think it's more of a top four than people realize just because I Think there are a few things that are sort of spoiling the broth, but it definitely changing the flavor of the broth. And I think people have their questions about Peterson's who, who he's going to be on an NBA team. Because you know, we talk about this a lot, that you want to draft a player just in a vacuum and say this guy, you know, has all these gifts but. Or you know, you want to have a player be seen just in a spreadsheet and it's like it's just not that simple. Like their personality, how they're going to mesh with what's there, how hard they're going to be to build around. I think some of those questions about Peterson have been raised about he likes to kind of do his own thing and he wants to be the lead guy. There's a question about who knows where the stuff about Keonte is coming from. Also it's just like I agree with you. I personally wouldn't let Keonte affect my thinking at all in terms of how I'm gonna.
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A
Why can't they both be awesome? Like I thought Keonte George had an awesome third year for the Jazz. He looks like a long term combo guard keeper. Like I, Why can't they both be 20 point playmaking scorers in the NB?
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B
They could both be that. But also I think Peterson's just on another. He's a couple levels above Keonte in terms of his, his status as a. When, what he's capable of as a prospect. But yeah, overall you keep hearing the consensus that AJ just feels you hear less noise about who he is as a person and things like that. You just don't. There's just not a lot of that stuff out there. And then Cam, obviously there's no noise so. And then you have preferences that, that differ between you know, people pin it on the analytics community. But I kind that parallel to the way people talk about Jokic whenever they're like oh you analytics guys love Jokic. I'm like, if you think you need analytics to see how good Carl Cam Boozer or, or Nicola Jokic are, I just, I, I want to go get your eyes checked. That's what I always say to that. So in terms of the consensus, I don't think, I don't personally think there, there is a consensus because I think Peterson is the most talented player overall. I think he, he has, I think he has a first team all NBA potentially MVP level ceiling as an offensive player. Devonta I think could be a first team all NBA guy. Too. I think all three of them could. So I don't think that there's a consensus. This could rattle out a number of ways and it wouldn't really surprise me.
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A
I tell people all the time, if you think you know for sure, there's some years you know for sure, right? Like wembanyama, you know for sure. Cooper flag, you know for sure. Like just go back to that Banchero Jabari Smith Jr. Chet Holmgren draft where like up until the last second Jabari Smith Jr. Was going to be the number one pick. Then the odds did all sorts of crazy things and all of a sudden he fe the third. Banko went first. We could be in for one of those sort of like, holy cow, that guy got picked first. That absolutely could happen, Dan. So he was the first guy that I watched. And I remember I texted a scout friend of mine after doing like 25 minutes. That's it on Dan, who's huge and multi skilled and plays hard and has a nice jumper and a mid range game and all that. I texted a scout that I really trust. I was like, man, if, if there's a debate about the number one pick, Peterson must be fucking awesome. And then I watched Peterson and I texted the same scout and I was like, hey, turns out Peterson is fucking awesome. That guy is incredible. The way he moves is so smooth. The pull up jumper, the passing vision that maybe as you're, as you're indicating, maybe you don't see as much of as you would like, as frequently as you would like. And obviously there's the stuff that happened in college and I have heard, I'm not sure you have heard, but I have heard some skepticism about the creatine explanation for his cramping. Some people believe it, some people don't. But apparently medically everyone is like, it all checks out. Whatever it was, everything seems fine. Like, I don't think people are that concerned about the cramping or the medical stuff as a long term issue. But I, I watched both those guys. I was like, man, these guys are awesome. I mean this is the, this whole draft is really, really fun. Like, all the guards in the middle of the first round are fun. I watched the Michigan guys yesterday. I was like, man, these guys are fun. I like all these guys.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Peterson just, it was a weird year just because he didn't really get handed the keys start to finish. The way that you would like to see a guy and some of that is his availability. You know, he was so in and out of the lineup that they Were using him as sort of a supplementary. Granted a really damn talented supplementary piece that was moving on and off the ball. He can run, pick and roll, man. He can make every read. I've seen him make these plays. I've seen him play high level competition. This is something that, you know, his dribble to shoot, like fluidity, like the smoothness of his ability to pick up his dribble and get to his jumper is high level. I mean it's, it's at the level of some of the guys you see at the top of the league. So, so smooth. He gets to the, he's got crazy mid range game. He's got all kind of creative, overhanded kind of floaters, runners, things like that. He can improvise when he's in the air. He's strong. I, I think he can do kind of whatever he wants to do with his physique. I, I just think he's a really impressive, smooth athlete and I think AJ is a little. My evolution of the way that I've thought about him has been interesting because I saw AJ at like 16, 15, 16 years old and I was like, oh, this guy's, this guy's a like blow you out of the water. I'm just so much more explosive than you. And as I got watching him and maybe it was his peers catching up with him. Athlet. I think the kind of start stop ness of his game is really where his bread and butter is going to be like. I think he's more like Shay than he is. People keep like DP like Peterson compares himself to Shay. I actually think physically DeBonsa reminds me a little bit more of Shay because he's just hard, his rhythm's hard to grab onto. He's big and strong. He can get to his spots. And I think he could be a pretty, a pretty good defender at the next level too.
- [25:18]
A
I, I would be stoked to get any of these guys. The Bulls are sitting there at 4 being like, I look, whoever I, whoever we get, we get and Caleb Wilson, I mean the entire 30 minutes of YouTube is just cra. One crazy athletic play after another. I think there's like I, I assumed watching him that he'll be a four in the NBA and maybe like a super small ball five. I what I think there are some people who like have faint hopes that he can be a three in some scenarios. Like I did not see much of that, but I don't know what his ceiling is in terms of a shooter or a playmaker, but I Just think I would be shocked if any of these teams trade out of the top four spots. It would have to be such a godfather offer and from whoever it would be. Oklahoma City is the one everyone's talked about. I just, I don't see it. But again, who knows what could happen?
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B
Yeah, it's just so unusual to get this, to get one of these guys in a given year. It would be, you know, really coveted, obviously. And to have to. To have the opportunity to be in the top three and get one of them. Yeah, I'm not passing this up. I don't think that there's. To start from square one with one of these guys who you can build around in a real way and you could build a playoff level team. I think around all three of these guys legitimately. And you're talking about Caleb Wilson. I the three conversation. His handle is the thing. And this is true of a lot of prospects that, you know, development just kind of is developmental roads are paved by ball handling and you know, and I think that it's possible for Caleb to kind of evolve to the point where he could play the driving kick game. But a lot of his dribbling right now is like, you know, I pounded a couple times. You're on my back. I pounded a couple times. You know, he's playing like that. He has great. It'll be, It'll be curious to see how much beyond him just kind of occasionally creating for himself because he likes to kind of go stationary in that 15 foot range and get to his, you know, his, his jumper and he can elevate over guys. The real selling point for me is that I think he has the highest defensive ceiling of these four players. He covers a lot of ground. He has crazy like out of area potential in terms of like plays that he can affect. He can just swoop in from the rafters and erase mistakes. And I think his switchability could probably go one through four. I mean he's probably going to have a hard time when like bigger fives like body him, but legitimately. And DeBonta has crazy wide range, as does Boozer. But I think the ability to erase mistakes. Wilson is on another level athletically with his tools.
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A
And the thing about Memphis and Chicago is they're almost like not quite blank slates, but I don't think that they have to worry about fit nearly as much. Like for instance, there's all this buzz that Memphis loves. Boozers that climb. It's a Duke guy. Duke, Duke. Duke. Let's just say Utah takes Boozer. At two. Okay, so I get Darren Peterson. Like, there's no. Like, I don't like. Oh, I don't care about how he fists with John Moran. I'm trying to trade John Moran. Like, I, Cedric Coward and Zach Edie are the main young guys that we have. Like, I'm. I'm fine with that. And Chicago is like, zealous, is the most important player on the team long term, and he's like a 34 and can pretty malleable. Like, I think that's what's interesting about both of them. By the way, Chicago, we should mention they hired Thiago Splitter as their head coach. I'm happy for Thiago Splitter. I think he did a really nice job in Portland, sort of molding a strange and unwieldy set of parts on both ends of the floor. I maximized his center rotation, I thought found a way for Scoot Henderson to kind of thrive toward the end of the season by simplifying his role and his decision making. Just, it showed a level of flexibility and adaptability, but also a demandingness on defense that I think is a nice foundation for a young coach who's building a pretty solid track record in Europe and here and fits the Bulls timetable. So I think that's a smart hire for the Bulls and it's like a nice, encouraging start to the Bryson Graham regime. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll do some more draft stuff. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. The best passers see every angle of the floor to make the perfect assist. And State Farm is no different. They know the game inside and out and look at every angle to help set you up with a plan that fits your life and budget. Get the coverage that's right for you. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. Okay, before we get back to the draft, we're going to do some quick takes on the finals. And this moment, this NBA moment, is presented by State Farm. Okay, Kyle Mann. I have four quick takes on the finals. Are you ready?
- [29:56]
B
Yes.
- [29:57]
A
Number one. Look, I've waxed poetic about the Knicks and their 16 and three playoff record and their point differential being the best of all time in the playoffs and how it matches up. The only comps, playoff only stat wise, are like the greatest teams in the history of the NBA. I just want to make it very clear. I thought it was so obvious that it didn't need to be said, but I will say it the 2026 Knicks are not one of the greatest teams in the history of the NBA to be in that conversation. You have to do both. You have to have the great regular season and the great playoffs. They are a fun team. They had an all time playoff run. They're going to be an all time beloved championship, all time memorable championship team similar to the 2011 Mavericks. They did have an all time great playoff run. But anyone who thinks that that's the same thing as being in the conversation with like the Jordan Bulls and the Durant warriors and the 80s Celtics and Lakers, that's. I thought it was so obvious that it didn't need to be said. It is said. Number two. Take number two. This is what I want your take on shaking hands after the finals and whether this is part of the wembanyama, the burgeoning wembanyama villain narrative that everyone is like rushing to make happen. It has some. There's some villainy there. I don't care at all about shaking hands after the finals. I can't believe that anyone actually cares. I know hockey has the tradition that's cool. Basketball doesn't really have like a hard and fast tradition of this. Even the coaches kind of wave to each other after games and say goodbye. This is not the Pistons who walked off the floor while the game was still going on because they didn't even want to acknowledge that the Bulls had superse which by the way, like 11 year old, 13 year old me, whatever age I was, thought that was cool as that the Pistons did that. It's kind of badass and I still kind of like it. I don't care at all that some members of the spurs, including Victor Weama, didn't shake hands. I didn't realize this was a requirement. This isn't little league. He was pissed off anyway. It's not like he hit someone or threw the something off the scorers table just walked off. Do you care about this? Am I, am I being too cold hearted?
- [31:58]
B
Which I mean, well, which is it because we hear all these people complain about we want. What we want is. What you're talking about is we want those. We want the teams to dislike each other. We want the theater of that. You hear people just complain, oh, these players, they like, they like each other too much. It's not like in my day it's like well you just got what you want. So I don't know which faction is complaining about that. Also Victor is. There's a little bit of a different fraternity fraternizing kind of element here with the European guys where they don't necessarily. They're not as tight as the American dudes are. Because after these games, a lot of times you see people hugging and dapping it up, and you're just like, they have some kind of history. They run in the same circles, whatever it is. I don't know. Victor kind of runs in his own circle. I don't feel like that's a mystery. He's. He's kind of his own guy. Maybe eventually he'll. I don't know what his friend. Do you see him as somebody that has other friendships in the NBA beyond, like, his teammates and the other French guys. I feel like there's like a. I
- [32:51]
A
hope he has a lot of friends and a great social life. I just really could not care any less if he shakes hands with the team after the finals. I don't care, and I don't think anyone should care. Take number three. This is something I've been thinking a lot about as I go to these very tense playoff games. There's. We do all these things where there's, like, some variable. You're like, there's two types of people in life. There's people who do this in this situation and people who do that in that situation. And sometimes I actually believe that there's a line of demarcation. And, like, I could get with these people, but not these people. I'm going to throw one at you. I think there's two types of people, two types of sports fans in life. There are sports fans of a team in an incredibly intense game. At the end, when your team's losing, this is the circumstance where our team is about to lose, Like, a incredibly intense finals game. There's 10 seconds left. We're down by five. We're about to go down three, two in the finals or we're about to be eliminated. And I get shown on the jumbotron. There's two types of human beings. There's human being, number one, who sees themselves on the jumbotron and just is so excited to be on the jumbotron that the context of the game goes away and they start dancing and smiling. And then there's the guy number three, who either. Number two, who either doesn't even notice that they're on the jumbotron or sees that they're on the jumbotron and is just like. Doesn't change. Is just so immersed in the misery of the game that they don't even want to be on the jumbotron. I think that's a line of demarcation. And if you are a Jumbotron, like, oh, my God, if the Jumbotron supersedes the game and the result that's happening to you, I think that we can't be friends. I only want to be friends with the miserable. The miserable people.
- [34:26]
B
I think we're both number two categories. I was joking with somebody about this the other day. If I'm at a game and this is just. I'm the. There's only one team in the world that has the privilege of making me miserable. I always say, but you'd better. Yeah, I'm not in the mood for that kind of thing. I'm. You know, and I. I only want to be in the. I know if you're. I don't know if you're like this, Zach, but I only want to be in the company, especially in a big game like that of people who are equally crazy as. I don't. I'm so hard, like, hardlined about it where, like, if you're just sort of lukewarm, I don't even want you at the viewing event with me. Like, because for big games, you know, I want. I want it to be with. Among people who are on the same level as me. So, no, I don't want to be on the jumbotron. I'm going to turn away. I don't want any of the. Part of this shit I'm not about.
- [35:09]
A
If I'm at Citi Field and The Mets are down 32 in the world Series and we're down to our last two outs and I get on the Jumbotron, you're going to see an insane person who doesn't want to be on the Jumbotron and is just like weeping, biting, biting my jersey, hugging someone next to me in fear of what's gonna happen. Okay, take number four. This is just very important. I gotta get this off my chest. Like, six months ago, I just had a random aside on this podcast about how if I get called by the wrong first name, even by people who know me, and it's just like an accidental malfunctioning of their brain 100% of the time. Not 80%, 100%. The false name is Josh. And I don't know. I said, I don't know what it is about Josh and Zach. Linguistically, they're both four letters. Josh ends in H. Most Zachs. Some Zachs end in H. I end in H. I don't know what it is. The flood of texts I got from other Zachs Zach's in the NBA. Zach's not in the NBA. That I know who have experienced the same phenomenon was like a tsunami. It was overwhelming. And I say this only because last week, I was at a coffee shop near Madison Square Garden ordering a coffee on the way to between the games. I don't know what day it was. And this guy comes up to me and he's like, hey, Zach Lowe. And normally, not that this happens a lot, but what's going to ensue is a basketball conversation, like, hey, who do you think is going to win the Finals? Blah, blah, blah. He just goes, zach Lowe, big fan of listening to your podcast. I'm. I'm also named Zach. And the Josh thing is 100% true. It happens to me all the time. And then he just walks away. That's the only thing. He wanted to talk. He didn't even want to have a conversation. He just wanted to let me know that he felt seen as a Zach slash Josh. I don't understand it. This. Someone needs to study this.
- [36:53]
B
Oh, my God.
- [36:53]
A
That's my State Farm NBA moment.
- [36:55]
B
That. That's okay. That's a Malcolm Gladwell series. I feel like, no, I get Kevin. That's the one. But that's okay. That's okay.
- [37:02]
A
That makes sense. I can explain that one. Okay. Then the draft really gets funky at five with the Clippers and all these guards. And then Landaboard, and then Landeborg comes in. I watched some film on Landenborg. To say that I like that guy is an understatement. He seems very fun. And then I just watched a bunch of guys. I watched Nate Ament, because he seems to be quite polarizing. Came away a little bit underwhelmed. Flemings. Tell me about Kingston Flemings. Because I watched him, and I was like, ooh, this dude is clever. I like this guy. He can shoot. He's got some pop off the floor. He's creative. He plays, like, at a rhythm that is just a little bit off the traditional beat in a good way that seems to catch defenses off guard. With his passing, I was like, he looks pretty small. Let me look up his measurements. Like, oh, yeah, he's pretty small. I don't know what to do with all these guards. Acuff is super small and obviously spectacular. Mikhail Brown Jr. Struck me as a little bit of a chucker, but a chucker who can make extremely long threes. I don't know. Pick any of these guys about them.
- [38:04]
B
Let's talk. Let's talk about Kingston. I mean, yeah, my Arc with him is, fell in love. I mean watching him, he, he has a rhythm that it's not, it's not that it's really hard to like to latch onto. He's pretty incendiary in terms of his top end speed.
- [38:21]
A
I like that. Incendiary.
- [38:23]
B
I mean he's in, in the open court, I mean there's very much a maxi kind of a vibe and there's a joy to the way that he plays that you just enjoy watching him. I mean he gets the spots in a straight line that's thought of maxi a lot where you know, he, he would do that. And then in the mid range, you know, the shot's a little odd. It's kind of, it's a little bit of a towny shot where you're like, ah, that's going in. I don't, I always say towny shot because I've had this experience growing up. I don't know if you had this where there was always the dude at the park who was a little older who just made every single shot, but it was like a little odd. So I always just call it a, a townie shot. But it, it's. He gets in the lane and his elbows are a little angled, but he's, he's a bucket in the mid range. He has a dribble pull up speed that's really fast. I think he's a very competitive player. He's strong. I kind of got to the point where I was worried about him watching the playoffs, quite frankly, because I was like, I don't, I don't know how much of a load bearing piece this guy can be if he's going to be an automatic target. But if you look at some of the guys who survive in the playoffs, he's very engaged. He's a really smart player. Like I said, he's competitive. I don't think he'll get picked on as much as, as, as you would think. So what's your, what's your initial impression? He's a really good passer too. That's another thing offensively, like a lot
- [39:39]
A
of these guys, like I could, particularly Acuff and Flemings, I can see. And Wagler too. I can see like, okay, I see. Like this guy can be the engine someday of a very good NBA offense. Like they're just multi skilled. They can shoot, they can shoot off the dribble. But to your point, like I got a lot of texts from GMs and front office people, particularly during the Thunder spurs series about like, hey, how Many guys on this team or that team do you think could actually survive physically in this series? It was less about like the defensive acumen and the decision making is just like these series are so physical and some of these guys are so big. Like are there, are there good players that you just think like I don't know if they could play in this series. And, and then on the flip side, now we're going to have this onrush of like here's a team that just won the title with a six foot nothing guard, defensive liability as its best player. And I think that like is that going to affect the draft stock of any of these small guards? I'm not really sure that it should because Brunson is a one of one in terms of footwork. He's also just like physically very, very strong and tough. And to the point of the whole Becky Hammond debate and the position I took on it back in the day, the Knicks built a team where they just surrounded him with absolutely giant wing players and bigs all over the floor to prot him and trained him in hedge and recover and don't get switched onto unfavorable matchups and the spurs could not get him switched and nobody could really get him switched. So I'm not, I think all those guys like are anomalies. But I do wonder sort of the, what you're hearing about the sort of back and forth between the playoff viability question for small guards that you've talked a lot about with Bill and the sort of, well, we just saw this small guard lead his team to the title. Like how does that all interact for you?
- [41:29]
B
God, it's the guys that can survive. You know, the last time Bill and I talked about it, it was like I, I used the term superpower that you know, you look at the players in the, in the finals, I mean the smallest guys that played Alvarado got spot minutes. Alvarado is a pretty hyper defensive processor. He has pretty incredible hands on defense like steel percentage through the roof. When he was coming out of college and it was like okay, this guy, guy's, this guy's probably has a chance to be a rotation player, but just very smart and he compresses really efficiently into a small role. That's another thing. It's like how, how much, how much, how productive can you be if you're not the load bearing piece? Because not every player is capable of doing that. Bronson just his, his two footedness in the, in the lane is just really special. Like being able to play and that's something that Villanova teaches, quite frankly, is like, you know, Jay Wright. That's a big part of their program is they teach guys to play off of two feet in the lane. So I think you get the combination of that. I think he grew up around basketball. Having Bob McKillop, the guy that coaches Davidson, he would always make this point about Steph Curry, that there are certain players that grow up in environments where they just see enough basketball on a day to day basis that it just trains their eyes to almost be quick twitch where they can sort through problems really quickly. And I think Brunson's one of those guys who has just learned to survive. I always say that he's, he, he, he knows the consequence of every, just kind of micro movement within the game. He had several moments like that in the finals. I know you brought up one where he got into the lane. He just knows like what my eye, the weight of what my eyes can do in a given moment. A push here. You know, he's, he's just very, very educated on that front and has like a slow mo game in terms of like paint guys in this draft, I, you know, I think people are going to draw parallels to Darius Acuff as a scoring focus because Brunson is a scoring focus guy, but they're very different. Like a lot of what Acuff does is like dribble, pull up. He has some runners in his game, but he doesn't like set up shop in the paint the way that Brunson does. Like, I don't really, I don't see them as super similar. I think he's a better passer than Brunson at the same age, but offensively I see those guys as pretty different. Have you watched much a Cup?
- [43:47]
A
I did, and it was a couple of weeks ago. And I saw like the, the, the smoothness, the decision making, the change of pace, like all that stuff is just screams like, this guy's an awesome offensive player, but he's 6:2 with a 6:6 wingspan. And you just wonder sort of how does that, how does that really translate to the league? And I don't, I mean, all of these teams from the Clippers at five to, you know, I mean, all the way down to Milwaukee at 10, have very interesting decisions to make about these players. And I don't, I don't necessarily know, know what I mean? I, I, I think Buries is very interesting because he got fewer on ball reps, I think, than a lot of the other guys, but plays seemed to me Anyway, on the tape to play a little bit bigger than his, I think. What is he listed at? 6,4? I think he seemed to play a little bit bigger. Bigger than that to me. But can we just all so different,
- [44:38]
B
can we hit on the Clippers here? Because I think this is something you'll, you'll be able to parse pretty well. Like the, if you're the Clippers and you're thinking about Darius Garland as you go to this trouble of getting him, I mean, and you, you, how, how much do you assume he is like a central piece of what they do and how much do you think that that's going to affect who they pick at 5? Because there are some of these guys here. If they. Are you creating problems for yourself based on the discussion we just had about the playoffs, about like these guys are hard to move forward with in the playoffs. Like can you add another small guard that's like going to get picked on if you already have Darius Garland as your central piece of what you're trying to do?
- [45:20]
A
I guess the, the flip side of that. So are you talking about Acuff there
- [45:24]
B
or just all talking about Kingston Flemings talking? Are you, are you courting disaster a little bit if you try to stack another like defensive liability in a small guard? Because those are the guys who are implied kind of at five. I, that's why I had buries there, because I thought buries could cover for Garland in a lot of ways.
- [45:41]
A
See, so I, I would flip the question almost the other way of like, I don't, I don't. I think they would love for Garland to be central to their long term plans. I don't think he is yet because he just got there and he has to stay healthy. You also mentioned the trouble they went to get him. I don't think they went to much trouble. Like the James Harden thing was not going to last. This was the best kind of talent play they would get for James Harden. So I don't really think Darius Garland should necessarily impact my decision making if I'm dead set on like this particular guy. But the reframing the question, I would say, are all of these guys in terms of upside talent, like I might just like one of the bigger guards better anyway. And so I don't even have to think about this question. And I think based on my very cursory knowledge of these guys and your very deep knowledge of these guys, I think there's a reasonable argument that like Keaton Wagler might just be better than these guys and Brandon Burries might just be a better player regardless of fit than these guys. I don't know. But if I'm the Clippers and I think that, like, I'm just pumped to take one of these other guys.
- [46:41]
B
Have you seen Wagler much?
- [46:43]
A
I have. Again, it was a few weeks ago and I did my, my. And he's, he was a strange one. Like, I, I initially, I was like, his rhythm is kind of weird. He looks, he's tall and he's lanky and like, like there's these Halliburton comps and I didn't quite see the, the sort of real quick passing decision making that Halliburton makes. But the more I watched him, the more I was like, all right. It's like, I get this. And the scouts I trust really like him.
- [47:06]
B
Wagler is a technician in ball screen in a way that, like, when I think about the other players in this draft, he, he could go, you know, he and Mikel Brown are kind of cut from the same cloth and that. They're like dribble, pull up guys. They're wispy frames. But, but Mikel is a lot more evasive. He doesn't have the like, drag you into the minutiae of movement kind of thing because like Wagler, when I watch him, he's super creative in like his screen rejects. Like, he's, he's just methodical in the way he's. You watch those guys, he's like, I'm gonna get you to make contact with this screen. It's not, I'm not in a hurry to do it. You'll watch him like he'll, he'll pull his guy to the left and just be like, I'm really purely just doing this because the screen's coming behind you and I'm gonna spin the other way. He's, he's just a technician about how he gets into the paint. And then the other side of that is he has effortless, like, energy transfer at great distance, like when he's pulled. Like his jump shot is so effortless. And I think his range, he's going to be able to, he doesn't have to be purely on ball. That's the thing I love the most about him is. And he has great size, so he's not a great athlete. That's the other thing. If he gets to the, if he gets to the, you know, the lane and things like that, he's going to be trying to shoot floaters. He's going to be trying to get you into the air, pick up fouls. I love the speed at which he plays. I think the athleticism question is valid. If I weren't worried about that, I would be doing that in a heartbeat. If I were the Clippers, because that would be a fun backcourt. They're going to shoot the shit out of it.
- [48:38]
A
You have Mikel Brown Jr. 10 and I think you're going to update this soon. And we talked about one of the guys who's going to move up to some degree is Morez Johnson at Michigan. And, and I watched all the Michigan guys. Cause everyone is very intrigued with Mara and Landenberg, but Mara, because of his size and the holy cow, that dude is giant and can really pass and has nice touch. You know, we'll see how his sort of strength holds up and his defensive speed and all that, as you've pointed out. But you have Mikhail Brown 10. Is he gonna, is he gonna stick in that range? Is he gonna move up or move down when you, when you do your thing?
- [49:11]
B
I doubt Mikel moves much for me. I do have some worries about him. He. The north south of his game just concerns me. The bookends as I like to put it, where I wonder about how consistent he's going to be as a dribble pull up shooter. He can get hot. I don't, I just don't feel like his ball looks as easy as Wagler. Wagler has like a beautiful like launch angle and spin on his shot. His shots fall at the rim and see a bigger target than Mikel a lot of times in my opinion. And then the finishing kind of concerns me too. Now he can make live dribble passes with both hands. He does a lot of great things. I'm not saying he's going to be a bust. It's just I kind of like the intangibles and the, the bankable skills that Wagler has more. You want to talk about the Michigan guys?
- [49:55]
A
Yeah. I mean I get why everyone is in Tamara. He's, he's big, he's a voracious rebounder. He's a really nice passer. Everyone wants size in the Wemby world and what his standing reaches like nine, nine or something insane like that. One of the biggest ever. And then, then there's the minutes concern, there's the shooting concern. Like he's a bad foul shooter and just sort of like, you know, he, he actually moved his feet better in, in high drop defense against some quick guards on the film than I, than I expected. But obviously the NBA is a different level. But he Seems to have some obviously transferable skills. Morez Johnson seems like all over the map to me in terms of what people think about him. Is he just like a. I don't like. He's switchable, tenacious, eats at the rim, played all over, like, played center, played next to Mara, played the three of them together. Just ginormous. Landenberg, Johnson and Mara together. You know, people just question, like, is the upside really? Like, I, like, like I threw Murray Boyles at some people and they're like, he's not going to be that level of defender in terms of switchability, versatility. But. But I kind of like what I saw.
- [51:09]
B
The Murray Boyles thing is interesting because Colin's a little smaller. Michigan was such a unique college basketball team this past year because I can't really remember many times when a team has had a 6, 9 guy that could get out and sit down and at the point of attack and guard and move the way that Linda Borg did. He took on some of the toughest decision, like the toughest assignments points in the, in the Big Ten.
- [51:36]
A
He's nasty, man. Like, he is absolutely. Now, he shot it decently, right? If I'm remembering right, he shot it like pretty decently.
- [51:42]
B
He's up around 40%. I mean, catch and shoots. I mean, I don't really know about him creating off the dribble, but then just to have. But to have him and then to have Morez. Morez can also kind of get out there and sit down and move. I've heard people say more less volatile beef stew kind of vibes.
- [51:57]
A
Stewart's another one that comes up. Except the rim protection is not at the same level. So I don't really know what, what, what is Isaiah Stewart without the rim protection? I don't really know.
- [52:06]
B
Most of his offense is kind of run, jump, dunk right now. I mean, the stuff around that. There's not much craft around the basket at this point. The three, the three ball someday is possible. I mean, you could maybe get him on like an attempt. An attempt and a half a game at like mid-30s, possibly, I think. But I don't. I don't know that he's ever going to be like a pure stretch four. I think the selling point on him is great motor. Everything that I hear about Morales Johnson is just that this kid is a worker that almost has to be like reined in a little bit where they're like, okay, like it's, you know, he's,
- [52:40]
A
he's very like that.
- [52:42]
B
He's gonna get better. His motor's awesome. Great kid from what I'm saying and defends his ass off.
- [52:46]
A
He's.
- [52:47]
B
He doesn't have and this is a big thing for me Zach I was talking about like point guards scaling into smaller roles. There are guys more guys than you would even think is true just from having conversations around the you know with people around the league where just a self sabotaging lack of self awareness about who you are as a player can just derail careers. And if you see guys who are conscientious about I think Luke Cornett's an incredible example of this. Luke Cornette came into the league as he was a stretch five or at least an M. He, he aspired to
- [53:20]
A
be a stretch tried to make him one that and it changed his giving up on that changes saved his career. The Knicks tried to make him one for a little bit too.
- [53:28]
B
Yeah just a sober sense of self is goes a long way and I don't Merez does not have self sabotaging sort of ideas of who he is as a player. So I think you're going to get a lot out of him. I think he's going to do his job. But the defense is the thing. When I was watching like the Spurs Thunder series I was just like you could throw Morez out there to play four or five for either team. Either team. And I've thought that the Spurs I'd be, I'd be looking at Morez if I were them. That's. That's a guy that I think would fit some of the physicality needs they have.
- [53:58]
A
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great call. I like that a lot. Now he's not going to be there where they pick, right?
- [54:03]
B
Probably not.
- [54:03]
A
Probably not 20th well you know it's not he's. He seems to be rising based on what I've heard but I don't know how high the rise actually is. But his defense is very interesting and it like I, I just again based on very limited knowledge. Like I see Steinbach rising a lot in the draft. I am more confident in Morez Johnson playing 12 minutes in a playoff game right now than I am Hannes. But maybe I'm just watching watching the wrong games in film they haunt us
- [54:40]
B
is like a really, really special rebounding prospect. So I think in this like possession war that we've kind of entered into that's that's something that's going to work in your favor. I think he's got a little more potential to stretch the floor than Merez does. But Yeah, I mean he, I think, I think Steinbot can king move a little bit better than he gets credit for, but I think Merez has him on that front.
- [55:03]
A
Is it, where is Linda Borg being picked if he's 20 and not almost 24? Because I, I, I didn't find a lot not to like. He's a little, this is your wheelhouse. He's a little, he looks a little stiff to me in the way he moves around. Like a little upright and a little stiff like with the dribble. But, but I don't, I don't know that it matters. And I, I loved everything else that I saw, including a nasty streak that I really enjoyed too.
- [55:29]
B
Yeah, he, he's competitive, obviously. He, you're talking about the stiff thing. I mean, that is something like the way guys move. I, I like obsess over that and I'm, I'm just like, you know, do you bend at your back or do you bend at your knees? Kinds of things. It's interesting because he's able to really, really get low and he's like laterally mobile. His hips are really mobile to be able to guard. I mean, he guarded wa game and did a really good job. He, he guards quick guards all the time out there at the front at the point of attack. But you're right. Maybe it's just a matter of he just needs to get lower with his dribble and needs to work on that if he's ever going to be a creator. I think just kind of attacking single coverage one on one kind of things. I don't know that I'll ever see him as like a facilitator. But Zach, he's got one of the more interesting developmental stories this, you talk about the age. I went back and traced this last year because I had him pretty high last year. I thought if he, and he wanted to come back and like narrow his range and elevate it and he did that. He, you know, that' that's an argument for coming back, even if you're fringe top 20 these days. He didn't start playing, playing serious, organized basketball until he was like out of high school. So you can go back and watch this. I need to make a video of this. He went and played junior college ball. Couldn't really do anything. He was like almost 20 years old. It almost reminds me of like the story you see here about Pascal Siakam, about just how much he rocketed upwards. He was basically a below the rim dunker spot four in junior college. And we're talking in like 20, 20, he goes, he just slowly, like the next year he's running ball screens for them. He's shooting threes. You watch him, it was just like watching, I don't know, I think I made the comparison. It was almost like watch a science fiction movie where like an alien lands on the planet and every time they go back to check on the alien, it's like grown by like 50%. You're just like, oh my God, it's going to take over the world. And then by the time he gets to U. B he's just this tools, you do everything guy. And I was like, okay, maybe the shot will come around. I want to see that. I want to see some of the, these things translate at the high major level. And he goes to Michigan and just like curb stomps everybody and wins the national title. So it's, it's been a very, very fascinating thing. So I think when you judge his age curve, he has yet to stagnate. So this guy's going to be, I think he's going to be a high quality role player and still continue to climb.
- [57:49]
A
Well, we got a week to go before the draft. I may have to have you come on again because I'm just learning all these guys and you're the expert, Jay. Kyle, man, we got group chat, we got the ringer draft guide. Anything else we got, we got cooking. I mean, that's enough.
- [58:02]
B
We're updating the mock draft, we're updating the, you know, the, the big board. And yeah, we'll have a lot more content on the pod side coming. It's going to be coming fast and furious.
- [58:11]
A
I can't wait for the updated big board. Now I'm invested. Now I'm in. Now I have hot takes on all these guys. I'm in. Kyle, man. Thank you, sir.
- [58:17]
B
Thanks.
- [58:18]
C
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- [59:24]
A
That's new.
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C
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A
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C
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- [60:11]
B
Try having me
- [60:14]
A
all right, we've celebrated The Knicks the 53 year drought, ending my love of New York City, all of that. It's time to talk about the other side of the finals. The San Antonio spurs. And from the Athletic, a guy who's moved to San Antonio and has just been killing it ever since. Jared Weiss how you doing sir?
- [60:31]
D
Amazing. Amazing. I got sleep last night. I can't believe it.
- [60:34]
A
It unbelievable. Okay, the spurs bitter ending to the finals 41 Total point deficit of what? 12 I think for the entire series. Games in their hands in their destiny. Game two and game four in particular. Game four the OGN and OB tip will linger forever. Five game loss. Victor Wembanyama says we were dominating most of the series. He's wrong but whatever. Just that they're. It's. It's a bad way to end the season. It's a bitter taste in there mouth but zooming out. Obviously we know they're ahead of schedule. They won 60 whatever games this year. They dispatched the Thunder in seven on the road for the playoffs. They had a net rating of plus 8.1 per 100 possessions before the finals. That was at plus 11 and they had the third best offense and second best defense in the playoffs. Overall offense fell precipitously in the playoffs like by a gigantic amount count league wide. Victor finishes for the playoffs 24 points, 11 rebounds 2 1/2 2 2.7 assists, 2.7 turnovers, 4.5 stocks spurs plus 13 per 100 possessions with Victor on the court. Minus 2 with him off the court. Castle Solid playoffs. Bad ending in game five. Dylan Harper Pretty awesome playoffs all the way through. Two lightning rod guys, Dear and Fox and six man of the year Keldon Johnson, who's up for an extension this summer. I mean, like this Nets out as I just personally Jared, like this Nets out as an obvious positive for the Spurs. Wemby most dominant defense player on the planet translated to the playoffs and for the league to see Wemby get to the precipice and emerge with some scars with a gaff in game two that's going to be replayed forever with some flagrant fouls that were called and others that weren't called and others that might have been reviewed and retroactively called, emerging as a villain, like a legit New York sports villain. Like the hate for him in New York is real. I think is great for the NBA. I think it just taps into like the literary nature of, you know, you got to get beaten up a little bit first before you come back. And I just think, you know, it's all looking up for the Spurs. But what would be your big picture sort of takeaway?
- [62:51]
D
I mean, listen, the Knicks themselves clearly hate him too. Like, that was pretty apparent. The vilification of Victor is going to be fascinating as it plays out over the off season. Because the thing that I think we learned about Victor is him being a little ahead of schedule and in a little bit over his head with the finals. Not surprising. It was the way that his bravado, the way it was experienced and interpreted by others and the way that it channeled him was really interesting where he lacked urgency a lot of the time and the spurs team overall lacked urgency a lot of the time. And the irony is, I feel like Fox was the one guy that reliably seemed to have a feel for how much intensity the series required. But his shot was just so off in the series that most of what he tried to do didn't work. And so it made him look bad. But he also, I think, deserves some credit for the fact that he seemed to understand that their offense was in bad shape the entire time. And that was something that I don't think Victor really understood. And so we really come out of this seeing, listen, the way to use Victor as a tool within your team on both ends is still clearly incredible and it's what got them to that point. But they faced a team that was pretty much playing perfectly, even if it was imperfect a lot of the time. Like the Knicks had the balance of a championship caliber team. And the spurs, they had so much balance. But what they didn't have is what's at the heart of that, which is you need a great player that can just get to his spots and own those spots. And Brunson did that at historic proportions in the series. And like, I don't know what he finished with field goal percentage wise, but he owned every single game at the end basically. And that was something that Victor couldn't do. He does not have spots and shots yet that are like unflappable in a final setting. And they're good enough to get him to that point, but it just wasn't good enough to get over the hump.
- [64:43]
A
By the way, before we, I do want to mention, like I mentioned, the spurs were third offense, second defense, second net rating plus a one. It's been mentioned by everybody that the Knicks had the greatest net rating and point differential in the history of the NBA postseason. Maybe it goes without saying. And so it hasn't really been said they were first in offense and first in defense for the playoffs. Like I don't think a lot has been talked about the Knicks defense, but. But they were just outrageous on both ends of floor. That is just leave that, that over to the side. I want to talk about Victor and exactly what you just said. I'm going to. I went through the tracking data on genius IQ and I'm going to read you some stuff that stood out to me. Regular season, Victor set 23 ball screens per 100 possessions according to Genius IQ on offense in the playoffs pre that number jumped from 23 to 35 per 100 possessions. Remember doing per possession. So like the minutes increase is baked in. This is, this is how big the increase was. And in the finals when the goal going got real tough for their offense. 45 per 100 possessions, double his regular season rate. Before I get to the efficiency stats, what do you make of that of, of the spurs offense just clearly becoming. This is the entire thing that we're building it out of. Is that about their guard makeup? Is that about the gaps maybe in Victor's offensive game? Is it about the Knicks defense? Is it all of the above? Because that is, that's a massive, massive increase. And it shows that their offense really came down to variations on one theme, which is Victor rolling to the rim and sometimes popping. And let me tell you, every defense in the league is like just breathing a sigh of relief when he pops instead of rolls.
- [66:31]
D
I think it starts with that it has to utilize their guard play. They have three downhill guards that once they get into the paint usually can own that possession. And then they either have Victor rolling behind the coverage and they go over the top, or Vasel and Champagne are wide open. That was their bread and butter throughout the year. But then I think getting to the, solving the issues for the future, the significance of all this is just that Victor couldn't own the post. And he doesn't have the pinch post face up yet where he can catch at 18ft and he can reliably get into the paint from there. He was trying and there was a play I think later in the fourth quarter in game five where he just finally went through the point of attack defense on the mid post and he got into the paint and he, I think it was when he got fouled and it was just finally this like, oh, wow, he's finally actually fighting through. Instead of just trying to get the edge where he's comfortable. It was about just, just pushing through whatever the defense was giving him to fight for that spot to get to. Because, you know, once he gets two feet in the paint, he usually can rise up or he can step through. But the other part was like he didn't seem comfortable holding the ball in the paint and trying to pivot and find that opening that he was really good at doing earlier in the playoffs, but really just mostly in the regular season. And so because he doesn't have the, like the, the post up technique and strength to really establish deeper position against guys like Towns and Robinson because they really had trouble getting him cross matches on the smalls, like there were like one or two possessions. I can remember where he got Josh Hart and he tried to post it up and the team was ready to try to enter the ball into him. It was just so hard for them to get the offense organized to where they could get a clean entry pass into to him deeper in the pose with a mismatch or he could draw an actual double and pass out of it. And I think it's a credit to the Knicks defense that they disrupted the movement around the perimeter so well for San Antonio that San Antonio never really got comfortable entry options to get him the ball into the post. And then he just isn't at a point yet where he can like really work Towns or Robinson deeper into the paint before he catches the ball.
- [68:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, and I mentioned like, like, like rolling to the rim is really, really hard. And Victor is a guy who sprints the floor both ends and has an enormous amount of responsibility on defense. And he faced a very savvy. I talked about this with Sean Feny the other day. Faced a very savvy Knicks team and Knicks offense that was going to make him work and drag him up from the paint as much as they possibly could or isolate on him from the corner. They were just going to make him work and work and work and bet on him tiring out at the end of games, which I think happened. And rolling to the rim 45 times. I mean, he's not rolling every time. But 45 ball screens per 100 possessions, double your regular season rate, is a gigantic workload. And not all the screens were good. That got a lot of scrutiny during the Finals. Stan Van Gundy was on it right away of just like, he's not hitting people enough. And then he would start hitting people. And that takes a physical toll. But I'm going to read you the efficiency stats now. Regular season, when he set 23.3 ball screens per 100 possessions, the spurs scored 1.14 points directly out of those plays. So that means either the guard shoots or Victor shoots or one pass away shoots. That was number two in the entire league among, let's see, 117 guys who said at least 400 picks. Number two, number one was LeBron James. Just food for thought. Points per possession. So you zoom out. Just include if it's 2, 3, 4 passes. But it really starts with the Wemby role. That leads to everything. 1.306 number one in the entire league out of that entire sample of 100 and whatever guys in the Finals, the Knicks, those numbers got lower in the playoffs, but we're still pretty good. And in the Finals, the Knicks got it down to 0.95 points per direct play and 1.19 points per possession. Manageable numbers, I think, just indicative of physical play being allowed by the reference. Smart defense. The spurs need for like a hair more shooting probably on the perimeter around Victor, but it just shows you what happened to their offense in the finals. And as the opponents got tougher and tougher was we don't have a ton of variety. It's all going to be built around Victor rolling to the rim and it just got harder and harder and harder for them to get lobs and all the stuff that they were getting to. Your point about post touches, I had, I, I had not looked up the tracking data a in quite a long time on Victor. His post numbers are like flat out not good. And I just. Most big guys and athletic guys and he's both and uber talented. They kind of just. Even if it doesn't look great, the numbers end up being great because they draw so much attention and that wasn't the case for him regular season. 4.7 post touches per 100 possession. That's like, I know that's in today's modern NBA, that's like top 20 probably, but it's not a huge number. 0.93 points per direct post up in the playoffs, that drops to 3.3 post touches per 100 possessions and 0.814. Those are both like bottom 25% numbers in terms of the efficiency it was actually. And the points per possession numbers are not great either. If you like zoom out and include, you know, he passes and some other stuff happens happens. It actually surprised me how bad his post up numbers were and how small his number of post touches were and that the number actually got smaller in the playoffs. And look, I understand post. This is not 1993. There's all sorts of sophisticated zone defenses and teams can overload the floor and front and do all these things to deny entry passes and shove them out on cross screens. I just think that number has got to get up to like 7 or 8 and, and he's just got to have like a 12 foot jumper where he just turns up. It's like I keep saying the Porzingis shot, but even closer. Does he know that? I mean you, you know him probably better than anyone working in media. Have you had these kinds of conversations with him or heard him talk about these things?
- [72:35]
D
Not, not directly with him, but you know, talking to people around him, there's a pretty clear understanding his game probably scoring wise needs to look a little bit like Joel Embiid right now. Where embiid has that 15, he has that face up from 15ft that he can just do a one step dribble, pull up into very cleanly. And obviously like Embiid can own post position better than anybody out there and you're not expecting that out of Victor. But the big thing that a great post up center does is they catch and they're either feeling for position so they know how they want to leverage the defender, or they're just going straight into a move right off the catch. And, and Victor, I think a thing he struggled with in the post is that because defenses are very good and they know how they want to guard his post ups, the passes into him require him to leave his feet a lot of the time. And defenses, especially like Robinson, they're really good at shoving him when he lands in a way that doesn't foul him but makes him fall over and he has to regain his balance. And this is Just natural to Victor. His center of gravity is just so insanely high that while we spend so much time talking about how remarkable his balance is for someone who's seven five and a half seven six, it's still not great compared to like Karl Anthony Towns who has incredible balance on the post up and it allows him to be so fluid out of the post. And so they're going to have to find some sort of thing, technique wise for him and overall offense wise to get him the ball in ways that he can catch with more power in his base that allows him to get into the post up actions quicker and more efficiently. Because right now a lot of the time when he catches the ball, most of the effort is about getting him reoriented and then he still finds his way but then going to the different things like that Porzinga shot, you know, the embiid shot, getting to a hook shot he can just go straight to or for him, he likes to do things two handed mostly. So having just like a way to turn into a very high jump shot like a Bill Walton kind of thing. Those are all things that you just didn't see him comfortably going to those right away when he got the ball. And so they're just gonna, he's gonna need to drill those out this summer. And so my understanding is they're gonna try to work with some more NBA players, of course like former players, but also just work with his own team about how can we drill in these mid post and these high post shots so that they're automatic for him.
- [74:53]
A
Because he's a good, he's a good passer before you, before like. And I feel like we did not see a ton of his passing in the playoffs because it became an all role, all the time offense for him, him. And he's never going to be an embiid jokic. Like I can just put you under the basket against opposing centers anyway against guards, like he can seal them. And he was actually pretty good at times in the finals of if the funky zone. He's playing on defense where he's not guarding a person, he's just guarding a place. Leaves him with a smaller guy on him. He would take him under the rim. That's how Alvarado flake really fouled him or almost, I guess. It wasn't called. Was it called a flagrant foul or not? I can't remember.
- [75:32]
D
No, he just kind of tried to, he tried to suplex him but Wendy was too big. It just wasn't possible.
- [75:36]
A
So he was like pretty good at about. But like he's not going to be like Embiid and Jokic where you can just take people two feet from the basket, put them into the stanchion and lay the ball in. But he can get the ball 12, 13, 14ft from the rim face up. And look, look at the defense as they're loading to him a little. It might not be a hard double, but they'll shade to him because he's so dangerous. One dribble, he's at the rim and that's where his passing comes in. I just feel like we did not see him facilitating like at all in the playoffs. And and again he's only 22. This is part of the learning curve for both him and the Spurs.
- [76:09]
D
The pick and roll, just going back to the pick and roll. What hurt them in the pick and roll. And this was a playoffs thing, but particularly with New York, it was two things. One, teams are able to chip him on his rolls in the post season, but especially in the finals where they could just punch him in the ribs as he's rolling. And so he just can't get those free releases on rolls in the same way. But then really the issue is that, that the spurs didn't have the threat of a dangerous pull up shooter coming over the top around his screens that forced the coverage to stop ball first before stopping Victor. And so usually the Knicks weren't worried about Fox launching into a three or Castle launching into a three off the dribble. So they could be a little bit more conservative in their coverage and make it harder for Wemby to roll. So a lot of it is on the guards at like Castle Harper and then obviously Fox just like I don't know what to make of his bat shooting in the postseason considering the high ankle sprain. But like you know, the shooting was bad and it really hurt them. But like they gotta look to Harper and Castle to be like knock down shooters on that first or second dribble coming over Victor screen. Cause once that happens, then the defense is back into that impossible quandary. And they didn't, the Knicks didn't really have to make that decision in the postseason or in the.
- [77:19]
A
Yeah, Harper, Harper finishes the playoffs 14 a game. 33% shooting on threes, 59% on twos is like a holy shit number for Dylan Harper as a rookie in the playoffs level. Fox disaster 41% overall, 29% on threes. Castle, the mistakes are, are, are loud, But I think 18, 6 and 5 on 46% shooting 35% on threes is like a home run playoff debut for Steph Castle.
- [77:45]
D
That's like that's exactly what you expect out of him and hope from him. That was, that was pretty ideal.
- [77:49]
A
No notes. All those guys are super young, including Wemby. They'll all improve. I don't know that there's a knockdown three point shooter in, in Castle or Harper, but they're. I think they'll become serviceable and better and calmer playmakers on the pick and roll. Fox is a wild card. I'm going to park him over to the side in a second. I think the other thing that got sort of pretty clear in the playoffs is that the spurs are a guy away on the wing, whether it's a three or probably a four or a three and a half. Harrison Barnes got played out of the finals. It could be Carter Bryant. I just don't know that you can count on Carter Bryant to be like, like 20 minute a game, finals ready next year. He's obviously going to get better, but that's a big, big jump from like they'd put him in there and he'd make a three and then he'd make a mistake and then we wouldn't really see him again for the rest of the game. Keldon Johnson, he's an extension candidate and before and he's like a beloved Spur 6 Man of the year. Before the playoffs started, when I was plotting out the spurs finances, which get pretty hairy pretty fast here, I had if, if these, if him and Champagne both get extended now, I would be looking to extend Champagne for sure. I had Keldon Johnson, who's making. What did he make this year? Like he's, he's got one year 18 million left. I had him pegged at like 25 million a year. Like let's say 3 for 75 or 4 for 100 or something like that. This playoffs, 7.7 points per game, 41% shooting, 36% on threes, completely lost at times under the rim like that positional grouping. And Vassell was good but not great. And I think one of the reasons Vassell mostly thrived this year was because they simplified his role and knocked him down like three pegs in the ball handling, scoring option hierarchy. And that's like about what Devin Fissell is going to be on this team. I don't think there's like a 22A game score hiding. Maybe there is and I just don't see it. But on this team I think this is about what he's going to Be be that positional grouping just isn't quite good enough and was exposed is not quite good enough. And so I'm wondering what you think about Keldon Johnson's extension talks because those are going to happen I think at some point this summer. I don't think it's like, like a July 1 kind of prayer or like a now kind of priority and just sort of, you know, the spurs did nothing at the trade deadline they have which fine, they made the finals like no harm, no foul. Enormous amount of faith in their young players and their player development. I mentioned Carter Bryant and he's very raw. I don't know. You know again, 20 minutes a game in the finals, big jump. They have the Hawks first round pick next year. They have a top one protected swap with Boston in 2028. They have a swap with Dallas in 2030, a King's first round swap. And boy is a Kings first round swap always a good thing to have in 2031 and a bunch of extra seconds by just knowing the spurs my gut would be. And God knows I have not talked to them since the end of the finals. I give them some morning time that they would just be like we made the finals, like we're, we're just going to take it slow. But is there a world where they try to, to upgrade at that position some way somehow in the off season?
- [81:01]
D
Well, what's good for them is they can kick the can down the road on major shakeups to the, to the cap sheet and just use the mid level this summer. And so they're in a good position there where they have, they should have the full mid level available to them and that's enough to get basically someone who can do what Carter Bryant does but is ready to do that right now and has like maybe a two year shelf life until Carter's really ready for that.
- [81:27]
A
Yeah, I zoomed, I zoomed ahead to their 2728 finances in my brain. But you're right. This coming summer the mid level is in play for them in a way that it might not be as early as next summer.
- [81:37]
D
Yeah, and listen, we know Wemby's getting the supermax this summer. Steph Castle is very clearly going to be a max player when he's up in a year and then. And is Harper already a max player today if he had free agency?
- [81:48]
A
Like maybe so I think, I think when you're planning the spurs future, you have to pencil in Castle 25% of the cap max and like open the door to the fact that maybe he makes an all NBA team when he, when the timing is right. I mean Victor's going to get the supermax and Harper same thing. And Fox is already making a max. So like we'll get, we'll get to there. But this summer you're right, that mid level slot, I mean that's where I would aim it at. Obviously it's. I just thought, I haven't looked at the full list and like who's actually a realistic player for them. But they can do that instead of dipping into the asset pool if they, if that's the, what they want to
- [82:22]
D
do and that's the caliber of player they need is just a player like that like to, to get over the hump in the finals. A finals in which they led for the significant, significant majority of it. They need Wemby, Castle, Harper to get better and then they just need somebody to fill that four or five slot that Lou Cornett couldn't hold down the backup five position most of the time. And then they just, they didn't have another above the rim power guy that they could mostly play at the 4 and then move them to the 5 when Cornet's not working. Like that was the thing that they were missing. They didn't go to Carter for that. Keldon proved to be too small for that to work with him. And you know, and just getting specifically to Kelton, the issue with Kelden in, in these last couple series was just that he drove to score every time he didn't pass out of it. And I think he would have been much better if on a lot of these drives once he hit traffic he got out of it. And I didn't think that was that much of an issue in the regular season but in the post season and maybe it's because in the regular season he would just be able to always get to the rim and then he was always the first person in the air after he missed the shot and would put it back every time. And he just didn't get those rebounds against Hartenstein and Mitchell Robinson and those guys because you're going up against elite rebounding players there. So Kelden needs to have this as a wake up call to be like, I need to be able to get off the ball earlier and let the ball circle back to me eventually in the possession rather than just going, you know, bull in a china shop every single time. And if they feel confident he can do that, then they will probably be okay. But I don't see him getting extended at this point because of Ed Champagne's. Age and his skill set that he was the guy that they could go to for shots in latent games. Except for some reason not the end of the season when everything was on the line. They didn't go to him there. But like Champagne proved to be the shooter that they really needed out there. And I'm pretty confident that they're going to be able to make an arrangement for a deal where they can opt out of the team option and get him signed up for another three or four years.
- [84:20]
A
Yeah, given. Given his number, which is $3 million team option next year and the limits on extensions and all that there's an easy fair deal for both sides. Sides sitting there at whatever average salary, whatever you want to, you know, maybe a little less than that. Whatever it ends up being, I'm with you like after this playoffs. I wouldn't extend Keldon Johnson right now even at, even at the. In that 25 million dollar year. Some people might think that's too high, too low. Like I'm not. Things get hairy enough soon enough that like I'm not. I'm not putting that onto my cap sheet in the next three or four years. Right now coming off that playoffs apology strategies to Kelden Johnson because by next a year, by a year from now, 2027, 2028 even like and like Castle's deal hasn't come in to play at that point. But Victor's at the 30% max even just like no Castle new contract. It's the last year of his rookie contract. Sam Harper is a year even earlier in his career. They could be if they extended Johnson and Champagne they could be right at the first apron already in 2027, 28 with Castle's deal not having kicked in and Harper's deal being a year away from even being a thing. And that's with Cornett's full number which maybe they could get off of that. But like my point is and you add a mid level guy onto that, they could be approaching the second apron in 2027, 28. And then in 2829 you have to pencil in the Castle max. The Victor Max and Fox at 57 and a half million. You have three guys making $167 million already in 2829 and then 2930 is the last year of Fox's deal and the first year of Harper's max deal. That's the nightmare year where all four of them are making whatever max ballpark max. I don't think, obviously I don't think dear. And Fox is on the team by that point. So it's a little bit moot. I have already said he was for the full playoffs. He was. He was bad enough enough by his standards that if a team called me with a deal where I didn't have to like attach an asset or two to get off of him this summer, I would just get out ahead of it and do it. I don't see that happening. I think they're probably without a market and hoping that he has another all Star season that he plays better in the playoffs next year because he's capable of it. And this was just like a nightmarish combination of injuries, one high profile, just complete brain fart and just a whole pile of missed jump shots. Shots within an offense that became relatively simplistic and predictable. Still effective because it's victor we to the rim. But rehab his trade value and just try again next summer. That's. That would be. My prediction is like I wouldn't extend Keldon Johnson. You're saying you don't think they will? We'll see. And I don't think there's a Fox trade to be had this summer that is going to be satisfactory to everyone involved and you just sort of run it back and maybe use the mid level as and keep your trade assets. That's what you're saying, right? Keep these extra picks and swaps that are coming in.
- [87:15]
D
Yeah, we'll see what they can do with the deadline. But you're right, there's no market for Fox just because of how few teams need that specific type of player and none of them have the financial flexibility to do it. So especially after what we just saw, they need him to go back out there and remind everyone like he was so integral to their team this year his biggest big function for the team was that he was the one guy that could really run that offense. Like Castle. Like we saw what happened against. Was it. Was it Minnesota or OKC when Castle had to be without Fox. He had 20 turnovers in those first two games. It was a record. Harper, I mean listen man, he might win MVP in two years with the rate that he's growing. Who knows. But he. I would be shocked if he was ready to organize and run that offense full time next year because that's just such a huge old.
- [88:02]
A
Shocked, shocked if he to.
- [88:05]
D
To the level to which Fox was able to organize that offense throughout the season was just. Was so crucial for this team in that he just knew he was the one that knew how to organize themselves in the half court to get Angles for Victor. He was the one that you could just see him pointing people out and being like, I know how we're going to create a wide open three for Champagne. I just, I can't imagine Harper has that type of floor understanding that quickly. Harper is already an elite downhill scorer. Like he's already a top what, 20 downhill scorer in the NBA right now when he's good. He's not consistently there yet, but he will be pretty soon. I think everyone's confident this guy's going to be a, you know, second all NBA probably at least player in a few years. It's just that it's the degree between I can attack from the elbow when the offenses or defense is in rotation and I can get through three guys to score versus I can walk the ball down the floor, put everybody in the right spots and know how to manipulate the defense to create an open shot. That's just a very. It's a much higher level of skill in the NBA. And I just don't think Hassel and Harper are probably going to be there next year, two years from now. I actually probably expect that. But they probably still need Fox's view of the court next season and probably.
- [89:23]
A
And they need, and they need. If that's the case, and I think it will be the case that the Fox thing gets kicked a year for all the reasons that you're saying and all the reasons that the market will be saying. They need Fox to have a really good year because the contract a year from now is still going to be 53.5, 57.4, 61.4 as of now anyway estimates. I mean it's just a huge amount of money. And you're right, like you can go back and watch these five finals games that are, that are. The recency bias is just like Fox was a disaster and like there he's throwing bullet passes all over the floor, hitting guys in the corners and they're just missing threes. And I think it just reflects the number one concern about the spurs coming into the season was do they have enough outside shooting around Victor. And they kind of made it work with Champagne replacing Harrison Barnes, who was on fire for like the first 30 games of the season. And then he got moved to the bench and it, it kind of showed itself to be an actual weakness in the finals. And by the way, Fox was part of that too because he missed a bunch of spot up threes from the corner and elsewhere when the other guys were handling the ball. But he was a decent organizer for them who Just had a total nightmare finals. And Victor, let's end it on Victor. It was a really, it was a really fun couple of weeks as a neutral in Wembley land because the villainization of. Now look, they're throwing the eggs and all the shit that the New York fans, the very small, tiny percentage of New York fans doing was, was silly. It was like the flagrants were a real thing. He clearly has a temper when he feels like he's getting beat up. Nas Reed, exhibit A. The New York fans really hated him. He stuck his foot in his mouth a couple of times after the finals, during the finals, with quotes that didn't ring all that true. And there's also just like, there's when I talk to fans and even like people like when he was walking to the podium after game four, there was some snickering among the media that I was hanging around with, like, as he was walking, that everyone was checking to see if he was wearing shoes or not because of the story that had come out on ESPN the day before about how he was walking in bare feet because he likes to be in touch with the earth. And he's talked a lot about how he's built for these moments, he's made for these moments. And I think there's a little bit of backlash coming of is there some too conscious myth making going on or image making going on with all of these things? And so it's been an interesting sort of backlash. It's too strong a word, maybe. And also just finals, if you had to grade, if I, I had to grade his finals, I'd say like B minus, C plus offensive finals and A minus defense, probably A plus first half defense, B plus second half defense. And like, they needed an A and an A and they didn't get an A and an A and they lost. And that's where I netted out of it. Like, none of this changes the fact that I think he's going to be the best player in the world for quite a bit. We just submitted our ringer 100 and kind of out of deference to every, to like the status quo and how the finals ended. I, I kept Shea at number one, but I had, I would hear the argument for Victor and I think he'll be there for quite a long time. But that's where I kind of netted. I, I would give him B minus, C plus offense, A minus defense. Is that too harsh?
- [92:47]
D
I thought you were too nice. I, I would have, I'd. I'd probably go B minus offense and B Plus defense. Okay, so we were close because I mean, before the, before the series started, I said, it's funny, a lot of, a lot of people I talked to were like laughing at the idea that the Knicks could compete with this team. And they were like, oh, the path was way too easy. And all this stuff. I was like, no, I'm watching what's happening. I know how much they're going to expose Victor. It's going to be.
- [93:09]
A
I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe the Vegas odds. I couldn't believe that a vast majority of people picked the Spurs. I mean, I can get picking the Spurs. I just thought the Knicks. I said it right away when Bill told me the odds and I picked the Knicks. So it's like, I just think the Knicks are being, being a little bit disrespected. And anyway, that's just obviously, listen, their
- [93:27]
D
path was relatively easy and I think in hindsight we could see that because of the Thunder injuries and obviously the Wolves injuries, like maybe a little was the same for the Spurs. And at the end of the day, the team that usually wins the championship is just the really good team that's healthy. Like that tends to be how it goes. And the thing though that we saw was that New York's ability to spread the floor, and not just to spread the floor, but to move their spacing around made it so hard for Victor to have his spots on defense where he could catch his breath, where he could know exactly what his angles are and how he's going to move. And you could just see he was a little late on rotations at times. He was wearing down from all the different pick and roll coverages he had to do. He was always like, especially the closeouts on OG were late a lot of the time. And so, so his defense, he just did not get to own the floor on defense the way that he usually did because of how smart the Knicks offense was. So I can't even remember what the
- [94:24]
B
rest of the question, no, but I
- [94:25]
A
will say, I will say so. I did with Feny and, and Fred yesterday. Sort of frozen moments that I always want to remember from these like sensational finals. As great of a five game series as could exist and they were all Nick's moments for the most part. Part I do want to give one from Victor because this, this possession again, it'll be lost to history was like astounding to me. And with Victor, defensively, everybody remembers the blocks and that first half of G, that first quarter of game five, it was like Godzilla played for the spurs like there was just nothing you could do. And there's the famous play from. What was it? I think it was. Was. Is it game three when she, when the, the Knicks do the blender redux and Victor erases Shamet at the basket whereas it had been a basket the game before. I just want to give him some love for game five. And you're probably going to remember the sequence I talk about. 3 minutes and 55 seconds left to go in the third quarter. He's on Josh Hart and it was always curious to me that he just wasn't on Josh Hartmore. And I get, I get why, but that's an off season discussion for the spurs coaching staff. But he's on Josh Hart. And Josh Hart sets a high screen for Brunson and Victor comes. It's almost at half court. The screen I'm looking at now. Victor comes up to the level of the screen and Hart rolls. And the Knicks do what they always do in that scenario. Brunson swings the ball to Bridges on the left wing and Bridges job is to then hit Hart rolling to the rim. Like Brunson can't make the pass directly to Hart. So you, you throw it out to the wing and Bridges does it. Wemby and like Bridges throws a lead pass into the paint and Wemby retreats and gets a hand on the pass. And I was like, holy, that guy actually deflected this pass. Pass. The Knicks recover the ball. Hart gives it to Clarkson. Clarkson's right in the middle of the paint. He's about to kick it to Anunobi in wide open in the right corner. And Victor deflects that pass with his left hand. Two of the most insane deflections you will see in a five second span. That leads to something. I can't remember what happens after that but like I just like go that position. Can you see that possession in your head now that I bring it up?
- [96:29]
B
Yeah.
- [96:30]
A
Because people think there, there's this like well he's not that mobile and you get him in space and he's vulnerable. And Brunson had burned him a couple times in high profile situations. And like is he, is he like. You get the insane Victor skeptics that are like well is he that much different than Gobert? I'm like, yeah, he's that. He's that much different. Like go back and watch that Play. Those are two like top 1% deflections in five seconds by a 75 center running all over the court. He.
- [97:00]
D
When, when Wemby can, like, know what tracks he's operating on, where it's like, you know, the vertical dropping back track on a pick and roll and then the shell around the paint.
- [97:10]
A
He's.
- [97:11]
D
It's, it's like insane what he does because he knows where the spacing is, he knows where to get his hands out. And that's when he's like, perfect. It's really when he's stuck in like, the weird no man's land, when he's not quite the low man on the baseline, that's when things get a little tricky for him. But when he's able to have all the action in front of him him, he will, he will disrupt things in a way that nobody else can. And like that. That still proved to be true during that series. It was just the way that the Knicks could get him turned around in certain ways. That was just so effective.
- [97:40]
A
And by the way, I don't. When I was kind of like mentioning the media snickering about him, you know, wearing shoes or not wearing shoes and all of that, I, like, Jacoby had this epic rant about Wemby and how he hates.
- [97:52]
D
It was hilarious.
- [97:53]
A
It was hilarious. But I also did think, like, like, it's like you, I, I don't know how you win because he, he, he is at, at the very least, he's honest and he's going to tell you how he's feeling and he's going to tell you about his off court, you know, whatever, and like, he's going to let you in a little bit. And he, like, he called him a tryhard and that's the one that I really hate. And I wish I had pushed back on Jacobe at least on that. We should want all these guys to be try hards. Josh Hart is a try hard. Jalen Brunson's a try hard. It's not a bad thing that he tries really, really hard and wears his emotions on his sleeve. Like, those are all good things. There are variants of it that are. Can be a little much at times, but those are all like, very good things. And I also respect, just apropos of nothing, I respect his stance on soda. Soda. Like, I don't want my kid drinking a lot of soda. I respect that he's dumping the Gatorade and throwing it. I'm losing sponsors here left and right, but I respect it. But there's, there's like, like, you know, it's just. He's becoming a polarizing guy and he lost the finals. And I think all of this is just tremendous theater for the NBA.
- [98:58]
D
Yeah, it, it's funny, I remember when I, when I wrote the, the story that had the soda thing in it, the amount of glazing comments that I got from people, which I'm sure some are New Yorkers, but I think it's a widespread thing of that when for those of us that have been covering Victor on the grounds and like, particularly for me, I'm like a very poetic style writer. I like trying to dig into the emotional nuance of what an action means and things like that. I understand how the way that I do it will probably annoy a lot of people that are already predispositioned to being annoyed by the overall worshiping that happens with Victor when it comes to stuff like the walking barefoot thing. The walking barefoot thing I think is mostly just that he does a lot of work on trying to open and free up his feet. Because your feet get destroyed when you're an NBA player. Like I, I guess our listeners can't do this, but walk into an NBA locker room, look at LeBron's feet, look at most of these veterans feet. Their feet are absolutely destroyed. Victor does a lot of work, probably more work than anybody to take care of his feet because his entire career hinges on his feet staying healthy. And pretty much no 76 guy has ever been able to keep their feet healthy over a long career. So I think that's the main reason why he walks barefoot. Counterpoint. You have to be out of your mind to walk through the back halls of MSG barefoot and hope that you don't step on a screw or glass or something like that. So I was mortified when I saw him doing that because I've tripped in that area back there. So thank God his feet were okay. But there's a lot of projection, I think that goes on with people watching the way Victor acts and the way that we cover him where we, I think most of us that are covering him look at what he does as a breath of fresh air. And it's fascinating and we like that he does put himself out there emotionally. And he is a curious and adventurous 22 year old who is trying to like take in everything that the world has to offer to him. And a lot of people are just going to be annoyed with that because it doesn't fit the kind of modern status quo of athletes, that athletes are kind of taught to suppress who they are so that they can be clean cut images that the public consume them without dealing with the jagged edges of the personality. Now Victor, there's a line between confident and cocky that I think he stepped over too many times during the postseason. But generally he has been confident with self aware for most of this season. And I think it's just that he faced the hardest test, right? He went all the way to the finals. He faced a great team, a team that we all love and are going to remember forever. Like, this is one of my favorite, favorite NBA teams I've ever seen. The six team, like they were just everything about them was fascinating and enjoyable. And watching them celebrate now, it's like, there's a reason why we love these guys. They're just, they're hilarious.
- [101:41]
A
I spent about 30 minutes today watching Mikhail Bridges on Instagram live, being like, all right, Mikhail. Like, like, live it up, man.
- [101:48]
D
Yeah, I mean, OG High out of his mind on Good Morning America or maybe just asleep. I don't know. These guys usually don't sleep for like three days after they win the championship.
- [101:56]
A
But I'm gonna go for og. I'm gonna go with sleep. Yeah, hopefully.
- [102:01]
D
But he, you know, Victor, I think to his credit, at the end when he lost, he was like, this is the biggest learning moment of my life. And I think he was able to recognize that his bravado and confidence, it did backfire on him to a degree. And a lot of the things that he did this year from like calling out OKC for ethical basketball at the beginning of the season, even if everybody probably agreed with him, him, he probably saw like, there are things that he hasn't done yet that you just cannot learn until you experience them. And the finals is something, nothing will ever prepare you for it. No matter how many, no matter how many mountains you climb in China, no matter how much you know how many Piper Bear Chambers you lay in, no matter how many crazy drills you do in the off season, inexperience is undefeated and it remains so after the series. And I think he's probably going to have a little bit of a look in the mirror and he'll see like, all right, right. Being confident is a huge part of who I am and it's what allows me to do what I do. But I have to have a little bit more self awareness to understand that the way that I project out is going to, for instance, motivate the Knicks to want to kill me. And that bit them in the ass in the end. And so he'll have to learn how to play the game publicly a little bit more. But I think his heart has almost always been in the right place more. Or at least as much as it is for any player that's under the spotlight that he's under.
- [103:25]
A
And yet he ended that press conference or said something at the in his final press conference of the Finals about how what's really the worst part for him is that he's got to wait a hundred more games to get back to the Finals. And if I'm Oklahoma City, I'm like,
- [103:38]
D
that's a naivety right there.
- [103:39]
A
I'm like, how many games did you say? How many games? You say a hundred games. You're getting back to the final, not 200, 100 games. And you'll be back in the finals. All right. Bookmark in that one and if we'll see what you know, who's still on the Thunder, who's not on the Thunder and all that. That obviously that's setting up to be the rivalry of all rivalries and everyone else in the west is chasing them. Jared Weiss, go read all his stuff in the Athletic. No one has been covering the spurs better this season. Go enjoy a much, much deserved little respite here before the draft and everything.
- [104:07]
D
Jared, I'm heading to the beach first thing tomorrow morning. Can't wait for the 1, 2, 3, Cancun.
- [104:12]
A
There you go. I love it. Thanks, Jared.
- [104:15]
D
Thank you, man.
- [104:18]
A
All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. Rest of the week is tbd. We're kind of on News Watch, so to speak, right now, but we might be back later in the week with another episode. Thank you, of course, to Jay, Kyle Mann and Jared Weiss. And as always, thank you to Jonathan, Mike and Billy on production. And thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Low show. We'll be back soon. 21 are over and president select states for candidates Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinceneticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support and Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.
- [105:20]
C
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